| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Raymond Ibrahim | Robert Spencer |  |
|
|
|||||||||||
|
|
Memo to Ibrahim Hooper: why don't all you self-proclaimed moderate Muslim leaders develop a comprehensive program to instruct converts to Islam in the ways of the Religion of Peace? Then even if they're besotted by love as Courtney allegedly was, they won't be so easily led astray -- and we won't keep having to read stories like this one of converts joining in violent jihad.
No, I don't really expect Hooper or CAIR to develop such a program. But the fact that they don't have one, and don't evidently see any need for one, is telling.
"Sydney bomb plot link to race riots, murderer," from AFP, with thanks to Timbo:
A woman charged at the weekend with plotting to bomb Sydney was a convert to Islam who planned the attack at the behest of a jailed murderer angered over anti-Muslim race riots here late last year.Jill Courtney, 26, was arrested at her suburban Sydney home on Friday in a swoop by Federal and local police operating under anti-terrorism laws.
She was charged with conspiracy to murder and conspiracy to cause explosives to be placed in or near a public place....
Police were not required to detail the allegations against Courtney during a brief court hearing yesterday, but Sunday newspapers quoted police sources saying they believed she was acting out of love for a jailed murderer, Hassan Kalache.
Kalache, 28, is serving a 22-year sentence for killing a rival drug dealer in 2002 and allegedly told Courtney he was angry over race riots in Sydney last December and that he would marry her if she carried out a retaliatory bombing.
A police detective said Courtney converted to Islam after becoming "besotted" with Kalache. "It's a pretty sad case, she's a bit of a candle in the wind," he was quoted as saying.
Posted by Robert at March 26, 2006 7:34 PM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
|
isn't love grand. lol
![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at March 26, 2006 7:42 PM
It makes you want to say, "Courtney, you are a very stupid young woman. You just threw your life away (including converting to islam) so he could carry out his jihad....and why would you want to marry a murderer anyway? You are a full fledged idiot. Now you can spend YOUR youth in a prison cell".
Stupid is as stupid does...Forrest Gump.
Posted by: freewoman at March 26, 2006 7:48 PM
Photo of her Mussulman thug boyfriend doing prison time. More background on this bizarre story too.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bizarre-plot-to-bomb-sydney/2006/03/25/1143084048036.html
at March 26, 2006 8:01 PM
ummhumm! He's real lovely!! ummhummm!! Enough to want to throw your life away. riiight.
Posted by: freewoman at March 26, 2006 8:04 PM
As an academic, you would be amazed how often I have to deal with apologists for Islamic terror. American imperialism and Israeli occupation are the usual justifications.
What's hilarious is that many of these defenders of Islamic terrorism are women.
I am convinced that insecure and self-loathing women are drawn to Islam. It is a tribal urge, a leftist urge, the same urge that drives new age spirituality BUT with the strictures of clearly defined rules.
The hilarious thing is that American women (and European women) who convert declare it as an act of self-assertion! Absolute submission as self-assertion. Hmm?
D. Ox
http://thomistic.blogspot.com
p.s. there's info on the Hamdan case and the Scalia comments that may force his recusal at
http://thomistic.blogspot.com/2006/03/gitmo-or-scalia-on-trial.html
at March 26, 2006 8:09 PM
"For whatever reason, she's hooked up and become besotted with him," one officer said. "She's converted to Islam and apparently has his prison number tattooed on her thigh. It's a pretty sad case, she's a bit of a candle in the wind."
Posted by: dennisw at March 26, 2006 8:34 PM
A drug dealing muslim what a fine example of the religion of peace and it,s high values that leave the west in shame.
Posted by: stevenz at March 26, 2006 8:34 PM
Dumb Ox
Hopefully Huge will post here on how stupid Western women fall for the doe eyed, soft spoken, exotic Muslim male. Though this hard jailbird seems to be an exception
at March 26, 2006 8:37 PM
Also reading about her man, hes in jail for a execution style slaying. Thought the Aussies had a gun ban going on. Reminds me of an old saying, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Well
i guess he could have used a bat.
at March 26, 2006 8:39 PM
This is not the first time a non-muslim woman have been, or a man for that matter, for the purpose of making them suicide bombers. I mean if it works against teenagers and vunerable adults, why not women. Just like that Belgian woman or the American Taliban guys. The same methods of brainwashing can be used to convert a woman. Women might even be more vunerable, knowing how chicks like bad guys who go against the establishment. This is going to reoccur again and again and one of this times it will actually work because who to hell will suspect a white woman of carrying a bomb.
On a related note, I think Australia is one of the few nations that is actually fighting muslim fascists in their country and there are public uprisings against this foreign occupiers who only create crime and terrorism. I really want to see what reaction this will create in Australia. Will there be demands for exporting all muslims, especially those who are there illegally? This would be a great precedent for other countries if it is accomplished successfully. It is about time to deport all muslims that are here illegally, since that can clearly be done under the spirit of the law.
Posted by: mosmike at March 26, 2006 8:41 PM
Mosmike i have reached the conclusion that there is a growing movment of people in the west who are waking up to the threat posed by Islam but sadly they are known as Islamiphobics.
You won,t see any real action in the west until Muslims have real power in our parliments and start trying to impose islamic laws and change our way of life and the irony is that it will be there good mates the left wing liberals that will start screaming first.
Posted by: stevenz at March 26, 2006 8:50 PM
White Muslim women are the cream of the crop for jihad. They know how to work the system, can come and go without any suspicion, are usually easy to brainwash since they don't much to believe in, usually become fervent and dedicated jihadists, and also further the demographic incursions of Islam into the hitherto Christian Euro-populace. When enough white women are having dozens of Muslim kids, the tide towards Sharia will be easier to turn in countries like the US..
Posted by: kufr at March 26, 2006 9:34 PM
Also, I'm told that the US prison system has turned into the largest incubator for freshly baked American Muslims. Millions of confined disaffected, somewhat violent youth in search of an ideology, forced to listen to 'dawa' day in and out for years on end; we're doing their job for them, gathering that many people and making them listen to this stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if the black population is majority Muslim yet. For Australia, I'd be careful to keep the aborigines away from the imams.
Posted by: kufr at March 26, 2006 9:42 PM
The article stated:
"Last year's riots began when a white mob shouting racist chants assaulted people of Middle Eastern appearance in the beachside suburb of Cronulla."
The article doesn't mention the abuse and harassment by Middle Eastern youths perpetrated upon the folks at Cronulla beach (This harassment wasn't isolated to Cronulla). The article fails to mention the Aussie lifeguards that were attacked by Middle Easterers. Some consider that the last straw that led to the Cronulla riots.
Wonder why they omitted those "details"?
Posted by: Jim The Kafir at March 26, 2006 10:06 PM
Dumb bitch..
Posted by: Denver at March 26, 2006 10:07 PM
"The court granted a request by Courtney's lawyer that the woman be assessed by a psychiatrist"
How ironic. When an Afghan converts to Christianity the Muslims call him crazy - and we all protest.
When a Muslim convert tries to be a good convert by killing infidels - we call her crazy.
Obviously one of the parties is crazy, and the other is sane.
Lets see now -
The Afghan Christian believes that Christ will judge the world - by Christ's power alone, that the message of Christ being of peace is good, that there is nothing he can do - other than accept Christ as saviour in order to get into heaven, follow the teachings of Christ which are clear on the treatment of 6 year olds/kids. The Muslim society calls him crazy.
The "Aussie" convert (she is no longer Australian in my view - she is a Muslim) wants to marry a Muslim man who can legitimately bash her, divorce her by saying so three times, marry three other women/6year old girls to have sex with (more if he hears voices and is a “profit”) will insist that she covers herself in the name of female "equality" (not of course to cover HIS own insecurity with the opposite sex), she wants to blow up the infidels as Islam has been "offended" (Allah can't do it himself), the only way a Muslim is guaranteed heaven is to die in Jihad, otherwise it's via works, and thinks that Allah needs her to avenge his name here on earth. The infidel Aussie society thinks she's nuts.
Who do you think is nuts? The one who wants peace at point of death (the Afghani), or the one who wants to bring us infidels "peace" at point of our deaths?
at March 26, 2006 10:22 PM
Whoa, I haven't seen such vicious generalisations on this site for a few days, I thought we were over that adolescent phase.
Don't worry guys, just because ,some women are strangely attracted to violent, criminal men (and a violent religion), it says nothing at all about the vast majority of women, leftist women or any other sort.
Don't fret guys, just because a few women foolishly convert, it doesn't cast aspertions upon your achievements as men...
Posted by: Lili at March 26, 2006 10:58 PM
Apologies, Lili. But I do know many women who don't have much value for their freedoms. They would gladly be stay-at-home moms to kids, and dutiful wives to their husbands. A situation that Islam is perfect for.
at March 26, 2006 11:15 PM
Hopefully [Hugh] will post here on how stupid Western women fall for the doe eyed, soft spoken, exotic Muslim male. - dennisw
I'm not Hugh, (and I don't play one on tv), but I've got a few thoughts on this.
Part of the phenomenon has to be the portrayal of Western men, both in pop culture and in academia, as barbaric idiots. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect this trend is most pronounced in the US.)
And since Western culture had so many of those allegedly barbaric, idiotic, ethnocentric, foul-mouthed, simple-minded, hairy-shouldered, beer-chugging-- you get the idea-- Western men involved with it, it's not surprising that women raised in that atmosphere would, perhaps unconsciously, look farther afield for expected sophistication, softer sensibilities (aka girlie men!), and values uncorrupted by the Big Bad West.
I've been there, sort of-- brief relationship with a guy from a third-world country a few years back. Not from the Mideast, but still possessive, controlling, and also highly insecure and effeminate. Tyrannized by his father and, I think, at the same time trying to turn me into his mother-- strikingly similar to the neuroses associated with many a Mideast male.
No more of those for Shinoliite. I had always liked them before, but after that eye-opening experience, the American Male is that much more a thing of beauty. But I'll stop there. ;)
Posted by: Shinoliite at March 26, 2006 11:25 PM
Clarification-- "them" in the last paragraph refers to American men in general.
Posted by: Shinoliite at March 26, 2006 11:26 PM
Shinolite, which country was this? Just to see what other religion/culture has this sort of thing. Or is it a general third-world feature?
at March 26, 2006 11:32 PM
Some strange women get a sexual kick out of being abused by men, even more so when their clitorus is still intact.
We havent as yet seen a photo of the woman convert cum murderer but judging from the love of her life, I bet she's real paper bag stuff.
at March 26, 2006 11:36 PM
Jim,
Whilst the media tends to ignore the harrasment and violence perpetrated by muslim thugs prior to the Cronulla 'riot', the average Sydneysider knows better. Cronulla is probably the first (recent) case of an Infidel population rising up and saying to the followers of that pervert and mass murderer 'enough is enough'. Yes it got out of hand, but no one was seriously hurt, unlike the revenge attacks the following two days by the Mohammedans. Who knows, Cronulla 2005 may go down in history in much the same way as Tours 732, Lepanto 1571 and Vienna 1683.
Posted by: PAS at March 26, 2006 11:40 PM
Kufr-- northern South America. I don't want to bash an entire country on the basis of one loser. ;)
I do wonder, though, if some of the Islamic mores on gender interaction filtered into Latin America via the Spanish colonizers, who had just recently shrugged off Islamic rule when they started exploring the Western hemisphere. For example, eye contact is read as flirting/amorous interest in Mexico, among other countries.
Posted by: Shinoliite at March 26, 2006 11:46 PM
Don't fret guys, just because a few women foolishly convert, it doesn't cast aspertions upon your achievements as men...
Posted by: Lili at March 26, 2006 10:58 PM
---------
Now Lili:
Just what aspertions does it cast??????
at March 26, 2006 11:48 PM
"Just what aspertions does it cast??????"
Well in this woman, severe aspertions on her brain function - she was probably in the drug scene, after all.
In women who stay with violent/dominating men of any ilk, I think it casts aspertions upon the men's behaviour of course, but also on the women's ability to think for themselves and stand up for themselves. In places where an abused woman can't get proper help from police and help agencies, it casts aspertions upon the whole society. (I mean, why do we still need 'women refuge'? If a man is violent, HE should be taken away and locked up!)
As for being attracted to islam - yes there are people of both genders who seem to desperately want to be told what to do. 'Candle in the wind' seems like a good description.
The best we can do to stop people converting to islam is to get the truth about islam out there, to counter the saccharine image islamists try to convey.
Posted by: Lili at March 27, 2006 12:36 AM
Muslim barbarians attackinf french infidels in Paris...
http://www.english-france-echos.blogspot.com
at March 27, 2006 12:38 AM
"Last year's riots began when a white mob shouting racist chants assaulted people of Middle Eastern appearance in the beachside suburb of Cronulla."
The article doesn't mention the abuse and harassment by Middle Eastern youths perpetrated upon the folks at Cronulla beach (This harassment wasn't isolated to Cronulla). The article fails to mention the Aussie lifeguards that were attacked by Middle Easterers. Some consider that the last straw that led to the Cronulla riots.
Wonder why they omitted those "details"?
Posted by: Jim The Kafir
Also Jim no one mentions one drunken angry day of built up frustration from Aussies compared to a week long revenge rampage of much greater violence and physical harm by STONE COLD SOBER moslems.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 12:58 AM
-Lili
Concerning the whole casting of aspersions thing, I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Texican was wondering why you felt the need to say that. Most men, at least most "Western" men, are not so insecure that we're going to feel inadequate because some troubled woman decides to throw herself at a sociopath. As far as I'm concerned, guys like him are welcome to nutcases like her. May just be my opinion, but I doubt it.
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 27, 2006 1:02 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the black population is majority Muslim yet.
While your busy make generalizations about White women you could also stop making them about African-Americans. Are you aware that most AA if they are religious at all are members of Protestant churches?
Posted by: Roxane at March 27, 2006 1:07 AM
I'm sure most women are sensible about these things, but I've been surprised to find that feminists are not more critical of Islam. The astonishing thing is that many fawn on it.
Check out this for yet another example of the Guardian rolling in the mire.
We live in strange times - "Christians" who don't believe in Christian values, "leftists" who are not concerned by the grossest inequalities, feminists who applaud the subjection of women. The World turned upside down.
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 3:01 AM
Assalmau-laikum all,
Kfur says "For Australia, I'd be careful to keep the aborigines away from the imams".
Don't be so silly...why? Do you think that abos are thick or simple? You do them a great disservice.
Let them make their own mind up...they have a fine culture dating back far further than your mediocre white culture.
I have stated before that womens in democracy are
subject to far too many freedoms. Then they go & lose their way...they hanker for a way...a labour of love and discipline in life...and Islam provides that perfectly.
In this case it is regrettable that this white woman went for this muslim lund.
But there are some very able and attractive muslim men...why did she have to pick on him?
So I say to the ladies (abos or other, Islam does not discriminate) out there...don't stop conversion to Islam simply based on the bad experience of this woman's choice.
Do go & talk to your local Imam if you have penetrating questions...don't let this small incident stop you from making life changing decisions.
peace
at March 27, 2006 4:33 AM
Patriot2...I just think your Israeli wife wasn't enamoured by your spelling skills.
Posted by: Naseem at March 27, 2006 4:36 AM
Perhaps "Western" women are attracted towards Islam as water finds it's own level.
They are sickened by current secular western values and yet seek an ideology that they can identify and live with in a "meaningful"(ie. let's blow something up) way.
Being rotten to the core themselves, they find Islam and cherish it.
I believe current secular western society and Islam are both in their own ways equally repugnant...yet they are very different.
Islam is a totalitarian political ideology masquerading as a "religion" that seeks to dominate and kill and destroy...and the secular west says anything goes just so long as we have fun, ok.
Perhaps we in the "West" should return to traditional Judeo/Christian values as a means of preserving our heritage and culture.
at March 27, 2006 4:47 AM
ie. some Western women are attracted to Islam, not all of course.
Posted by: Mike_W at March 27, 2006 4:50 AM
Mike W
Perhaps [some] ... women are attracted towards Islam as water finds it's own level. ...... Islam is a totalitarian political ideology ...
I ran two of your comments there together for a reason. Oriana Fallaci cites a revealing statistic: some 95% of Western converts to Islam come from a far-left political background.
It would seem that what we have are people who wish for an anti-individualistic ideology that enshrines notions of domination and subordination. Facism and Communism being more-or-less out of the picture, Islam is simply the current flourishing version of such a system.
It is a betrayal of everything the West has meant since at least the 12th Century. Check out the link for an important expression of the moral value inherent in this "disposition to cultivate the 'freedom' inherent in agency, to enjoy individuality".
at March 27, 2006 5:12 AM
[Australian Aborigines] have a fine culture ...
It varied. Their organization was tribal, so there was not just one form of life across the continent. Some tribes were geared almost totally towards warfare; others not.
Some would help strangers. But others would kill anyone they didn't know out of hand. Strangers can be dangerous, you see, because they don't know the taboos, of which the Aboriginal Australians had many, and consequently might inadvertently provoke the gods - safer to kill them.
You need to get out of the habit of using phenomena to make debating points without having any real knowledge of, or interest in, those phenomena in and of themselves.
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 5:29 AM
The Naseem of the Day says Do go & talk to your local Imam if you have penetrating questions
Yes Imams do indeed seem to be adept at penetration.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4118073.stm
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1223819.ece
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax
at March 27, 2006 5:37 AM
"Last year's riots began when a white mob shouting racist chants assaulted people of Middle Eastern appearance in the beachside suburb of Cronulla."
Agence Française de Presse: Rewriting History One News Article At A Time. Unlike the New Duranty Times' motto: Making Up History One News Article At A Time.
at March 27, 2006 5:51 AM
Trust Granny to take my comment on talk with Imams out of context...a typical thing that a "white" woman would do (and there is NO racist intent here).
As for Imams being dirty old men...yes no doubt Islam has it's fair share.....just like the christian priests trying to teach young boys to reach the highest choir notes through buggery. See the two disgraceful (christian) examples below.
http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_156.shtml
http://www.cathnews.com/news/603/46.php
at March 27, 2006 6:23 AM
Naseem! Always a pleasure to see your posts.
Hate to say, but I have a question:
Arabs being ethnic whites...
And islam coming down to us from Arabs...
While claiming to be the source of all 'Western' invention...
Aren't you calling the kettle black when you speak of 'mediocre white culture,' which your academia (for lack of a better word) claims islam to be the source of?
Sorry guys, slept very badly last night, but I think I got the argument down correctly...
Posted by: Gary at March 27, 2006 6:27 AM
Kfur says "For Australia, I'd be careful to keep the aborigines away from the imams".
Don't be so silly...why? Do you think that abos are thick or simple? You do them a great disservice.
I think its the Moslems that like to seperate race:
"A Proposal:
Development of
Da'wah Efforts in Australia
Daud Batchelor
Australia is not a developing country so that the Malaysian concepts presented cannot necessarily be applied directly (without modification) to Australian conditions - except in the case of the Aboriginal Community which is a "developing" community."
http://www.ifew.com/insight/v12i01/dawaprop.html
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 6:49 AM
Naseem, please ask your imam which hand to use to wipe your arse. Allah wipes in mysterious ways.
Posted by: JanuaryMan at March 27, 2006 6:53 AM
O.T. but telling as more evidence of Turkey's unfortunate de-secularization:
Pro-islamic municipalities in Turkey are killing stray dogs, animal rights groups claim. Municipal workers are hunting, torturing and killing the animals by the hundreds, the campaigners say. ... There is a myth among pious Muslims that dogs are unclean ... at least two of the dogs had been sexually abused.
Muslims are accused of killing 'unclean' dogs.
O Kemal, where are you now?
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 6:57 AM
Aboriginals are protected species in Australia. We have a duty to protect them from Muhammedan filth.
Nasseem may be to old to find penetration from her imam. They usually prefer young boyz or girls.
The links posted above simply prove that Imams and Muftis are pedophiles, just like Mo himself. In the countries where the slaves of Allah rule, they are rarely exposed.
But in the West we do take them by the short and curlies, just to show all the world how rotten they are. And yes, there are some priests of other faiths as well who are perpetrators, but why point the finger at us?
Islam has made child abuse and female slavery an art-form. Nasseems jealousy is based on inferior complexes, wishful thinking and the usual Muahmmedan hatred.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at March 27, 2006 7:10 AM
Yojimbo,
That Turkish dog rape and slaughter (always brutally done) has been going on for a fair while now, I remember it from a year or so ago as well on my AR post list.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 7:23 AM
Yojimbo - re your post about Turks killing dogs. This is from an Andrew Bostom article at frontpage:
"Mary Boyce, Professor Emeritus of Iranian Studies and a pre-eminent scholar of Zoroastrianism, spent a 12-month sabbatical in 1963-64 living in the Zoroastrian community of Iran (mostly in Sharifabad, on the northern Yazdi plain). During a lecture series given at Oxford in 1975, 9 she noted how the Iranian ancestors of the Zoroastrians had a devoted working relationship (i.e., herding livestock) with dogs when they lived a nomadic existence on the Asian steppes. This sustained contact evolved over generations such that dogs became “a part in (Zoroastrian) religious beliefs and practices…which in due course became a part of the heritage of Zoroastrianism.” 10 Boyce then provided an historical overview of the deliberate, wanton cruelty of Muslims and their children towards dogs in Iran, including a personal eyewitness account:
In Sharifabad the dogs distinguished clearly between Moslem and Zoroastrian, and were prepared to go…full of hope, into a crowded Zoroastrian assembly, or to fall asleep trustfully in a Zoroastrian lane, but would flee as before Satan from a group of Moslem boys…The evidence points…to Moslem hostility to these animals having been deliberately fostered in the first place in Iran, as a point of opposition to the old (pre-Islamic jihad conquest) faith (i.e., Zoroastrianism) there. Certainly in the Yazdi area…Moslems found a double satisfaction in tormenting dogs, since they were thereby both afflicting an unclean creature and causing distress to the infidel who cherished him. There are grim…stories from the time (i.e., into the latter half of the 19th century) when the annual poll-tax (jizya) was exacted, of the tax gatherer tying a Zoroastrian and a dog together, and flogging both alternately until the money was somehow forthcoming, or death released them. I myself was spared any worse sight than that of a young Moslem girl…standing over a litter of two-week old puppies, and suddenly kicking one as hard as she could with her shod foot. The puppy screamed with pain, but at my angry intervention she merely said blankly, ‘But it’s unclean.’ In Sharifabad I was told by distressed Zoroastrian children of worse things: a litter of puppies cut to pieces with a spade-edge, and a dog’s head laid open with the same implement; and occasionally the air was made hideous with the cries of some tormented animal. Such wanton cruelties on the Moslems’ part added not a little to the tension between the communities."
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13626
How soon before we start seeing something similar on the streets of Europe?
Adela - thanks for the links to those photos of Muslims bashing lefty protesters at the france-echos site. Sadly, this may be the sort of thing it takes to begin to drive a wedge into the "unholy alliance".
Posted by: Caroline at March 27, 2006 7:31 AM
Having just read the last articles on animal cruelity, such as the abuse of the dogs in the Muslim world. The more shocking stuff I learn about Islam, the more I realized that Islam is so backwards when it comes to cruelity to both people and animals.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at March 27, 2006 7:46 AM
Naseem,
There is a BIG diference when it comes to a Christian priest and sexual abuse. The difference is that not only is the priest defrocked by the church but the state arrests and prosecutes the abusers. Just for your information.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at March 27, 2006 7:54 AM
Muslim barbarians attacking French infidels in Paris...
http://www.english-france-echos.blogspot.com
Thanks Adela. The above photos are of racist immigrants bashing white French young adults. Ganging up on white women. Some bashers are Muzz, some from Africa
Posted by: dennisw at March 27, 2006 7:55 AM
Big Cat girl,
Look into what happens to sheep in the Middle East, cruelly transported for weeks in unsound boats in boiling heat, many dying on the boat to ME, all so muslims can kill them halal style themselves, look into Halal killing it can be dam cruel in a country with absolutly no animal welfare standards in existance. All that suffering over a religious lunch.
Actully all the suffering over islam in general animals, people, countries, societys, free will, art, progress, tax payers money the list goes on and on.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 8:04 AM
Naseem said: "Do go & talk to your local Imam if you have penetrating questions...don't let this small incident stop you from making life changing decisions."
Naseem, you forgot to advise these female would-be converts to Islam to make sure they use the back door of the mosque, not to extend their hand in greeting, and not to look the imam in the eye.
In this way, the potential convert will be receptive to hearing about the wonderful equality that women enjoy in Islam.
Oh, I forgot: You should also tell them not to make the questions too penetrating. Keep their questions on the level of "Is it permissable to wear eye shadow while I pray?" Definitely don't ask anything along the lines of "What proof did Allah give to Muhammad to show he was male? How do we know that Allah is not female?"
By following those guidelines, prospective female converts will ensure their warm welcome into Islam.
Posted by: Jen at March 27, 2006 8:12 AM
Meredith: "Actully all the suffering over islam in general animals, people, countries, societys, free will, art, progress, tax payers money the list goes on and on."
"By their fruits ye shall know them" (the false prophets).
Posted by: Caroline at March 27, 2006 8:40 AM
That's a 'My boyfriend said he loves me!'
and he is going to marry you when??
The boyfriend couldn't carry out his jihad plans, so he got his best girl to do it.
Unbelievable.
This is the trouble with limiting the argument against Islam to being racist - so long as the person converts - and accepts these radical beliefs - then they become the enemy to free society – here the confines of colour and race go out the window.
Posted by: Pass It On at March 27, 2006 8:51 AM
Naseem,
We are very sorry and ashamed of the fact that a tiny minority of Catholic priests get a strange urge to fondle choir boys. My own theory is that the enforced celibacy of the Catholic Church drives them slightly crazy. There is certainly nothing in our bible that remotely encourages such behavior. Our authorities and the church itself clamps down hard on such disgusting activity.
Meanwhile in the Muslim world, for every fondled choir boy in the West, there are ten thousand little girls who get genitally mutilated with razor blades - mostly without even any anesthetic. Even here in Australia every large hospital sees botched cases every week. The usual explanation "she did it herself". But of course nothing is said about this horror in the Muslim world, nothing is done about it. You weep crocodile tears over the abused Christian kids simply because it suits your agenda.
"the source of all Western' invention..." Yes I once read a Muz site that put forward such an argument. It made very bizarre reading. Apparently the Muslims invented flight because it said in some ancient manuscript that some Arab flew (once upon a time). Strangely, this incredible event was not reported by anybody else, and it was never repeated. There was no drawing or detailed description of this Muslim flying machine, but hey, if some Arab vaguely scribbled it down on a piece of parchment a thousand years ago, then hey, Muslims invented aeroplanes, right!? Who are we to disagree! It was also claimed that Muslims invented gunpowder, not the Chinese, and that there is no evidence that the Chinese invented it. So all those ancient Chinese diagrams, carvings, tomb paintings and artifacts depicting ancient gunpowder devices are forgeries are they? Muslims have a seething inferiority complex and thus they lap up such incredible nonsense so they can feel better about themselves.
...............
Oh, by the way, here in Australia aboriginals in the prison system are kept away from Muslim activities and Imams in order to "protect their aboriginality" - or at least this is what I heard on a radio program here a few years ago. It does make perfect sense. The minute they convert to Islam they would just become hate filled paranoid anti-social bigots. An aboriginal boxer called Anthony Mundine converted to Islam a few years back and made some great comments about the US deserving 9/11. Now, despite being a good sportsman, he is about as popular as the bubonic plague and most people are quite happy to see him getting pulverised and bashed by a foreign boxer.
at March 27, 2006 8:55 AM
Caroline,
In a way, I can't say thank you for the link. I could wish not to read these things. But one has to know, so its good you posted it.
And I wish Blair (or should it be B-liar) were made to read such things, before talking ignorantly about the "tolerance" of Islam. Even the dogs knew people indoctrinated into these beliefs could not be trusted.
And the shameful shameful Guardian ...
Yes, I know the verse:
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 9:09 AM
I'm saddened and sickened by the misogynistic posts I've read here, this morning.
I doubt white female converts to Islam are any less lacking in sense than the white males who convert to Islam.
Have you forgotten our own American Taliban, John Walker Lindh? What do you suppose his excuse was? Did he fall in love with a Muslim man??
Posted by: Abscedere at March 27, 2006 9:54 AM
Abscedere says "I'm saddened and sickened by the misogynistic posts I've read here, this morning.
I doubt white female converts to Islam are any less lacking in sense than the white males who convert to Islam".
Abscedere, I made the point this morning about the excesses to freedom womens in the West have.
Now I am Ahmadi & a muslim....and expect unfair critism ...( I have had to get used to it over the 2 years here)...however I was very interested & pleased to see many Western men broadly in agreement with me.
Womens in the West forget themselves.....we need our bras...we cannot afford to burn them. All this non-sensical talk about *excessive* freedom is what I am talking about.
We womens are naturally slightly more confused about life, more emotional, more prone to change our minds, more easily led ashtray.
The last thing we need is MORE mixed messages, or worse.. MORE standing up against to our male partners.
Allah has put us in a pecking order...we should know where we belong and use THOSE as our strengths....our femaninity , our physical weakness, out emotion outbursts and fraility as well as our cooking skills and our ability fo have childrens.....this is where our strength lies.
Let us not forget ourselves...lest others forget us.
This is where Islam comes into it's own...womens in Islam know exactly were their place is and it makes them happy...it makes me happy.
So come sister Abscedere...don't be sick or unhappy....Allah awaits you with unfolded arms.
Posted by: Naseem at March 27, 2006 10:18 AM
Have you forgotten our own American Taliban, John Walker Lindh? What do you suppose his excuse was?
I don't know about anyone else, but see my post above here for what I suppose:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010751.php#c195022
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 10:25 AM
Naseem
That may all be okay for you, but we don't beleive in islam or its values, we have different hopes for our people.
You need to understand that.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 10:25 AM
We womens are naturally slightly more confused about life, more emotional, more prone to change our minds, more easily led ashtray.
Whatever it is you smoke while you write GIVE IT UP! ! !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4838386.stm
It's stunting your growth, Woman.
at March 27, 2006 10:28 AM
Naseem comes to this site to do her required dawa because she would be arrested for calling to her version of Ahmadi islam in her own country.
Posted by: Borg at March 27, 2006 10:34 AM
Naseem, YOU and your muslim women pals may be more confused about life, but don't lump ALL women in your category.
It's a woman's perogative to change her mind. If I really don't want to do something, I don't do it. I no longer (this comes with age and experience) say yes I'll do something if I really don't want to. I don't worry about if it bothers someone, they'll get over it.
You , on the other hand, must obey your husband, children, in-laws or whomever else lords over you. I almost pity you. But, I don't waste much time on people who won't take care of themselves.
If you don't have the gumption to take control of your own life and stop your pity party (woe is me, I'm just a woman, and believing it) and get out of the slave cult your in and make your and your pals lives better, well, it's your loss in life.
Posted by: freewoman at March 27, 2006 11:01 AM
-Islam and dogs
Anyone else reminded of the movie 'Teminator'? In one of the flash forward scenes, the humans at the front door to their hideouts keep dogs. The canines, telling the difference between the good humans and the evil killing machines, warn the guards about infiltration attempts. Perhaps there is a logic to Mohammedan hatred of dogs. Fido makes them work a little harder to kill us. How frustrating and ENRAGING that must be!
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 27, 2006 11:20 AM
Abscedere, yes. I meant both young men and women in the US seem to have many among them who are confused and looking for a cause.
Roxane, read up on the statistics of the growth of Islam in the US. The highest growth (some 30% or so) is among African Americans in US prisons.
Posted by: kufr at March 27, 2006 11:21 AM
Freewoman....your comments are typical of the Western womens...arrogant and very off putting to men...and then you wonder why they are sick and unhappy (sister Abscedere words not mine).
Knowing your place shouldn't be construed as weakness...on the contrary it is a position of balance. Things in the right place have a sense of order....NOT WEAKNESS. We are entitled to have opinions too...incase you missed out...I have posted LOTS of them over 2 years here.
I am a business woman...and model myself in the way of Khajida...Mohd's 1st and very successful wife....she is held in the highest ragard within Islam.
Your arrogance will take the breath away from a lot of men.....do you get out much??
Posted by: Naseem at March 27, 2006 11:36 AM
... growth of Islam in the US. The highest growth (some 30% or so) is among African Americans in US prisons.
Prison is a special case. And, of course, such figures are not surprising when one realizes that Islamic proselytizers deliberately target the disaffected and marginalized, including those in prison.
But black Americans are deceiving themselves if they imagine that Muslims will view them as equals. Tellingly, the unexpurgated version of the Arabian Nights is strongly racist (as well as misogynist) - and such attitudes are typical of what the Arabs really think of both blacks and women today:
... the unexpurgated "Arabian Nights" may have been one thousand nights in the telling, but pretty much every tale is a variation on this central theme: a handsome, loving Prince, called away to a noble mission says goodbye to his beautiful, adoring, virtuous wife. But he is barely out the door when she hops into bed with a dirty, ugly, diseased, Negro slave. The moral: "You cannot trust your honor to women. Turn your back on them, allow them the briefest flutter of freedom, and they will deprive you of your honor, bestow it on another man, and leave you with nothing but your shame."
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21059
Black Americans also need to pay attention to what is going on Darfur, where Arab Muslims, having committed genocide against Christian and Animist blacks, are now killing black Muslims.
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 11:37 AM
Freewoman....your comments are typical of the Western womens...arrogant and very off putting to men.
Not at all. No mature man wants a doormat for a wife, because only the respect of an equal is really worth anything.
Posted by: Yojimbo at March 27, 2006 11:41 AM
Someone in a previous thread mentioned a pop singer named Deeyah. She's Norwegian with Pakistani father and Afghan mother. Just saw a little feature about her on CNN about 1 hour ago. Hardly surprising that a major part of the segment was about all the death threats she has recieved from her Mohammedan 'fans'. One of those lying spokesmen for a British Islamic group actually said that she was making up the threats as a "publicity stunt". Being dubbed by the press as the "Moslem Madonna" probably doesn't help when dealing with the frothing-at-the-mouth Qur'anians either.
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 27, 2006 11:46 AM
Naseem, I too am a business woman, and I've always had strong men in my life and I would think that's what attracted them to me. Men I know don't like (nor want) feeble minded women or slaves.
You're barking up the wrong tree with your idea that American men don't like strong women. You're only thinking of muslim men. Who are, btw, afraid of strong women.
Posted by: freewoman at March 27, 2006 11:48 AM
Naseem
women from the modern world are different to you, its bad manners to critisize us, in modernity we are all free to be ourselves.
I don't mean to be rude, but with in our values you are a victim of a backward religion.
Its not a critisism, its where you actully sit in our value system, we beleive n freedom for all, a female knowing her position as subordinate as part of just one the many "senses of order" is an offensive sense to people from modern civilisations.
Islam is frowned apon here in moderinty as it opposes our values. You need to learn respect for our ways.
But if this is your way, learn your place in our world.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 11:50 AM
Oh, Nasseem, btw, if I sound a bit arrogant, it's my right. I worked long and hard to get where I am today.
You see, here in America, you don't have to be tethered to a man for your livlihood. And by the same token, you don't have to lose your dreams because you ARE tethered to a man.
Posted by: freewoman at March 27, 2006 11:55 AM
Naseem said: "Allah has put us in a pecking order...we should know where we belong and use THOSE as our strengths....our femaninity , our physical weakness, out emotion outbursts and fraility as well as our cooking skills and our ability fo have childrens.....this is where our strength lies."
I say to Naseem: Speak for yourself. I prefer to do my own thinking, thanks.
If you want to be a rooster-pecked hen, who's told she belongs in the back of the hen house, that's your right. I prefer to choose my own spot.
If you want to glory in your physical weakness, while allowing stronger rooster-types to threaten you with physical force, again, that's your right. I believe that humanity has moved beyond the days of "might is right."
If you want to view your panicky cluck-clucking as some ill-defined female strength, you may. I prefer to view human emotions as genderless. If you want to buy into the stereotype of excess feminine emotions, that's fine. I prefer to observe the barnyard scene through genderless eyeglasses.
As for cooking skills -- well, this is a female job in the home, but a male job when carried out in top restaurants. Did Allah get mixed up on the pecking order here?
As for childbearing (egg-laying?) -- This strength (I agree with your here) of women has the unfortunate side-effect of making them physically and economically vulnerable to power-hungry rooster-types. Inequitable barnyards allow this exploitation; equitable barnyards work to correct the imbalances. Which type of barnyard is Islam?
Posted by: Jen at March 27, 2006 12:03 PM
meredith says "But if this is your way, learn your place in our world"....how's that for arrogance then.
Well buster..it's not your world.
It may have been when your forefathers were busy shagging black slaves and had britinnia ruling the waves over the past 300 years.
But that's over now...now it will be the world of Islam. We don't need to pander or succumb to your order....only the order of Islam.
Infact I would go so far and say that "You may not pander or succumb the values and moral codes of Islam".....but your childerns or grandchildrens certainly will.
peace
Posted by: Naseem at March 27, 2006 12:04 PM
Not my grandchildren Naseem. They learned early how to "lock and load".
Posted by: freewoman at March 27, 2006 12:11 PM
Thanks Patriot,
We veiw the girl in this article as a weak sad victim whos place in our society is jail.
Submissiveness whilst allowed in a free civilisation is considered a sad perversion at times even a sexual kink.
I agree with Free Woman as well, Islamist men are scared of strong women, poor buggers.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 12:12 PM
Naseem,
I was trying to have a civil conversation with you.
The secular world is my world, yours is a nonsecular world.
I gave you that advice in good will, if you want anypart of modernity you will have to curtail to it.
You claim your good at that, knowing your place.
Anyway I don't post often enough here to know everyone personally I am thinking you are what we call a troll, which I hadn't realised untill I see the lacking capability in manners.
Maybe you live in Iran, if so it matters even less.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 12:25 PM
Patriot2, I read an article of a poor four yr. old child who was raped by a twentysomething muslim man, and her family left her on the sidewalk to bleed to death. She dishonored her family and it was an honor killing.
Where was the outrage from her family, her father, who should have castrated the rapist? Instead, the poor child bled to death. That was one of the saddest stories I'd ever come across. I can't tell you the anger I felt after reading it. And it's the norm over there.
Posted by: freewoman at March 27, 2006 12:49 PM
A story picked up from http://www.westernresistance.com/
The religion of tolerence and peace is killing dogs because they are unclean. Wow, just like infidels.
at March 27, 2006 1:43 PM
Naseem:
Freedom entails choices. As an American woman, I can choose to have a career and remain unmarried; have a career, marry, and have children; remain childless; stay at home; or do whatever else I choose. It means that I don’t have to marry the first bank account that comes along. Unlike some, I don’t have to let fear paralyze me into placing myself in a well-ordered, little box and then shouting to the rooftops how much I like the view from said box.
Obviously, there are weak-willed women so lacking in self-esteem that they are willing to do anything to prove their love. They will act as drug mules, aid and abet crime sprees, or convert to Islam. Other than the fact that they might succeed in blowing me up through sheer happenstance, do I really need to fear that these pathetic people are going to help usher in a new golden era of Islam?
Lastly, I direct you to a passage you may or may not be familiar with: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye, with never a thought for the great plank in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, "let me take the speck out of your eye", when all the time there is that plank in your own? You hypocrite! First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s.” You might want to reconsider flinging accusations of arrogance, especially considering your arrogant and presumptuous statement that our children and grandchildren will be succumbing to the moral values (???) of Islam. I don’t think so—or at least not until Onward, Christian Soldiers AND the Battle Hymn of the Republic comprise the musical interlude of Friday night services.
By the way, what’s for dinner tonight? I hope it’s not Nauratan Helper again!
at March 27, 2006 2:19 PM
If one is unkind to animals, can't you just imagine their relationships with people?
At least with dogs you have unconditional loyalty. Can't say the same with the killers.
Posted by: freewoman at March 27, 2006 2:35 PM
'mediocre white culture,'
Gee Naseem, I'll think of that while I play Beethoven and Mozart string quartets, go to the art gallery, read a Margaret Atwood novel, go where I like, when I like without male supervision, try on some interesting new fashion, use my scientific education in the workplace, have a free and open conversation about beliefs and society with my friends, listen to a radio discussion about evolution, eat a yummy chinese pork dish, or visit my favourite Indian, French or Thai restaurant ... etc etc.
Hmm, thanks Naseem, listing those things has reminded me again how rich and interesting and freedom-loving life in western countries is. Some of it from 'white' culture, some of it from truly multicultural, open and free exchanges with other cultures.
Posted by: Lili at March 27, 2006 5:41 PM
Oh and by the way Naseem, had you grown up in a truly islamic country like Afghanistan under the taliban, you wouldn't even be able to write! And why are you writing on the 'mediocre white' invention of the internet using a 'mediocre white' computer?
Posted by: Lili at March 27, 2006 6:04 PM
Mediocre white culture? You mean Western civilization? Not so damned mediocre if you ask me.
Any Western or free woman who converts to islam should be examined immediately by a psychiatrist.
at March 27, 2006 6:24 PM
Yojimbo,
What you say about the link between extreme left and islamism is very interesting.
There have been riots in center Paris a few days ago (and there will be more) during a demonstration against a new Labour Law. The demonstration was organised by our communist trade unions, and supported by our socialist student assocications, Green party, and the usual folks.
Some extreme left activists entered the Sorbonne and destroyed very ancient archives ("chartes"). Some others destroyed public stuff in the streets, burnt newspaper shops because, as an extreme left activist kindly explained to me, "50 % of the newspaper's sellers vote for the right".
Well, extreme left activists breaking stuff is not a new phenomenon. However, what happened in Paris is that hundreds of Muslims from the suburbs (the same ones as last November) took the train to Paris in order to beat up some white kids (high school kids and students who were peacefully demonstrating). On TV news, you could hear a thug shouting "dirty white" to a kid. They did not censor.
So you had 3 types of people in the general mess we saw in Paris:
1) brave, lobotomised, non violent students and highschool kids - all hating Bush and Israel and capitalism and wearing Palestinian scarfs.
2) extreme left activists, manipulating and destroying, but not attacking people
3) Blacks and Arabs from the suburbs attacking people (especially women). Little gangs falling on one person, 10 to 20 against one student / kid, beating her / him then stealing her / his mobile phone or bag. They also burnt shops and cars and invaded restaurants etc. So their actions were more violent than what the extreme left activists were doing.
I had the occasion to discuss with those young extreme left activists and I visited their blogs. What is happening is the following: on their blogs, the young communists claim that their fight is the same as the fight of the people from the suburbs. They claim they fight for immigrants who are oppressed, that they are against "zionism", against the USA of course, etc.
Some posters say: "cool to see that the suburbs are destoying again" or "we are all rioters". They ask for an "alliance with the suburbs".
They have the same enemies: the USA, the West, "capitalism", the White "bourgeois", the CEOs, the Government, the "colonialists", and about everything, in a big mix.
Some of them were beaten up by the thugs but they drew no conclusion from it. The official line on the matter is (read on their blogs): "It is a manipulation from the Governement to try to DIVIDE US". So if the Muslim thugs aggress them, it is because the Government manipulated them into doing so, in order to divide them better.
As far as converting to Islam is concerned, I suppose, NO, I don't suppose, I KNOW, that the first ones to convert "en masse" will be the young communists and other left wing activists. Then the socialists, the people from good families.
Islam will be interpreted as a new, cool fashion, to do the "revolution". It will become like the cool gadget to have, the newest mobile phone. It will be the link they will need to fight together against their common enemy. Look at the pictures of the demonstrations in Paris: a lot of highschool kids wear the Palestinian scarf. It is a fashion like any other fashion, but it is not an innocent fashion. In the French universities, there are meetings about how bad the Israel State is. Those meetings turn into antisemitic meetings. Also, note that the young French communists often wear very classical French names, elegant names. They are from good families.
Sounds familiar ?
Yojimbo, I am almost shocked when you say you are "surprised" that the feminists do not denounce the violences against women in Islamic countries or in Europe.
What are you surprised about ? Same happens with the gay associations who are very aggressive towards the Vatican, and say nothing about Islam.
Those activist people do not think. They only have ideologies (not all of them... some of them I am sure are honest, some speak up, from time to time).
The radical lesbians want to kill all the men. The gay people are obsessed with the Catholics. Why ? Because the Catholics are harmless. Those people (young communists , revolted youth, radical lesbians, anarchists etc) only despise Bush, the capitalists, the Jews and Co, because they don't feel threatened by them (although they claim they are oppressed by them or scared of them or morally shocked by them).
What they admire is power, they respect intimidation, they need guidance, they need a group. A GROUP ! Because they are teenagers. Because people, now, are old teenagers, because their have never known hunger or war.
Hence they are going to become fascinated with Islam and it has already started. Islam will be more seducing than communism, which failed. Islam will also flatter the deep aggressiveness that we have all inside ! Because we are fed up with being kind, aren't we ? Islam is the cool thing because Islam is growing, Islam is young, Islam is mediatised. Bin Ladens will become the new Che Guevaras, much funnier, as Che Guevara is already an old story. And also, it is an old story to laugh at religions. Our parents did that. Now, new generation: let us embrace religion !
A poster said "in the West we are disgusting because our ideology is: as long as we can have fun, it is ok" ( French author Philippe Muray wrote a bright book about that, called "Homo Festivus")
Well the young people have found a new toy: religious fanaticism. And we see the beginning of it when we look into the crowds of young students demonstrating in Paris.
at March 27, 2006 6:29 PM
May I add that all those people whose main activity is ACCUSING other people = gay activists, anti racist associations, feminist activists, Greenpeace activists.... are ALREADY fanatics, in their own fashion.
With Islam, they will indulge in their favorite hobby = acting like the poor oppressed ones, complaining and accusing, but they will be MUCH MORE powerful... they will at last realise their ultimate, secret, taboo dream: oppressing other people. Dictating to others what they must think and do.
No problem if gayness or feminism or ecology or tolerance are thrown to the dustbin: they never were the issue.
Posted by: joiesauvage
at March 27, 2006 6:39 PM
Lili: "And why are you writing on the 'mediocre white' invention of the internet using a 'mediocre white' computer?"
Not to mention sending her son to be educated in Britain.
Posted by: Caroline at March 27, 2006 6:46 PM
Joiesauvage: I am a feminist, and many of my friends are gay. I'll soon be introducing them to Bruce Bawer's website (the gay man who has written 'While Europe Slept'). I understand that some communists showed up at the London Freedom of Speech rally.
I don't think we can afford to write any group off just because we don't agree with all their values, when some of their members do see the threat that islamism represents.
Just keep pushing the truth at all these groups, and the intelligent ones, capable of independent and complex thought, will see the problem.
Posted by: Lili at March 27, 2006 7:07 PM
freewoman: "If one is unkind to animals, can't you just imagine their relationships with people?"
He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.
Immanuel Kant
If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.
St. Francis of Assisi
Compassion for animals is intimately connected with goodness of character and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man.
Arthur Schopenhauer, German Philosopher
Murderers very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids.
Robert K. Ressler , FBI Serial Killer Profiler
Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives.
Albert Schweitzer
When a man has pity on all living creatures then only is he noble.
Buddha Siddhartha Gautama
Mankind's true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view), consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy: animals.
Milan Kundera , Czech Novelist
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi
Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, Man will not himself find peace.
Dr. Albert Schweitzer
at March 27, 2006 7:12 PM
And ALSO... I believe that secretly, in Europe, people are fed up with having to deny their identity all the time. They don't like saying "I have no religion" or "I prefer not to say what my religion is" or "My culture is not better than any other one".
The world is not ready for that kind of universal tolerance, the world is not advanced enough and people are not ready to say "we don't have an identity". That would errrr... in about 200,000 years ?
So the Europeans were deprived from the right to have an identity. They were terrorised into thinking that their culture is bad and that their religion, Christianity, is backward and ridiculous.
It was too early !
Because now, we are fragilised, we are ashamed of saying "that is what we are, Christian Europeans, we have a history, we have customs, we have roots, we have values".
But the Europeans still are Mammals and creatures which are not very civilised and NEED an identity ! Survival instinct, I guess... must be in our DNA ? Nature has planned everything. We NEED to have clear ideas about who we are and who our enemies are.
So, people will look for a new identity. They will re build strenght, symbols, customs, heros... values... They can't be Westerners and Christians ? Very well, they will become Muslims. The reaction always comes strong. People need their natural quantity of violence, intolerance, domination, ASSERTIVENESS.
When I observe people around me I can feel already that kind of secret fascination for Islam. Religion, brotherhood, killing those who don't agree, no political correctness... what a paradise it would be ! And beating up the irritating wives, killing the homosexuals !
And people (especially women) are always seduced by strenght or what is perceived as strenght.
So YES ! Many will convert ! Because our values were destroyed, we need to find new ones (I am not sure that it applies to the USA ? But to Europe, yes).
Posted by: joiesauvage at March 27, 2006 7:14 PM
Lili I am gay and I know the gay associations very well. I can tell you many of the activist there are FANATICS.
You know why ? Because they speak about Bush, the USA, Israel and racism, more often than they speak about homosexuality and defending gay people.
They write aggressive texts about the family associations in Poland (dangerous fascists, as everybody knows) but dont mention Islam.
It does not surpise me at all. Those people disgust me. They are the worst hypocrites. They don't stand for freedom but use the concept of tolerance to oppress the ones who don't share their vision of society.
Do you know that Act Up, a gay association, invaded Notre-Dame de Paris to celebrate a mock marriage between two women ? They interrumpted people in their prayer, molested the priest who had come to ask them to leave. The media of course denounced the priest, not the activists.
Did they do the same at the Mosquee of Paris ? No. I am surprised... Maybe they were scared, what do you think ?
They are INTOLERANT and I don't give a damn if they are gay, feminist, or whatever they want. They are little fascists.
And some of them WILL convert to Islam.
Posted by: joiesauvage at March 27, 2006 7:24 PM
Sorry Lili to get excited but those people just freak me out....
But ok ok, some of them might be intelligent. May I have their phone number ? lol
One interesting thing to observe will be the way those extreme left so called defenders of gay people rights and women rights will react against the Islamic totalitarism. For the moment, they don't react I am sorry to say. But once again, it does not surprise me at all. They still think we are in 1500 fighting against Christian intolerance. They hate the Catholics so much they would sell their souls to anybody including the most homophobic ideology available on the market.
Posted by: joiesauvage at March 27, 2006 7:32 PM
"Well the young people have found a new toy: religious fanaticism. And we see the beginning of it when we look into the crowds of young students demonstrating in Paris."
Religious fanaticism?
Wth, I thoght the "students" were protesting new employment legislation?
I do believe you are right about some of the protesters being religous fanatics though and that "religion" is Islam.
I still maintain that secularism in the "West" is Islam's greatest aider and abettor and a prime source of converts to Islam as secularism is by nature ultimately nihilistic and numan nature seeks meaning rather than nihilism.
There are two separate mobs rioting in Paris, although at times they appear to be united.
Perhaps in some ways they are united.
One mob rioting in Paris is comprised of spoiled marxist secular western students having "fun".
I recall reading that of them said that rioting "is even more fun than ice cream".
The other mob is comprised of Muslims, also having fun, but waging violent jihad.
at March 27, 2006 8:43 PM
I don't think we can afford to write any group off just because we don't agree with all their values, when some of their members do see the threat that islamism represents.
Lilli,
I agree totally, give it another few years everyone will see. To start dumping our sub groups either for not seeing, or as other opinions are saying, because they offer social to legal precedents to islamists (gay marriage variations as a standard for poly marriage for islam)is suicide of our own standards of freedom.
The core is secular society gives this freedom not on a religious but a democratic basis.
When the islamists push for sharia its a religious ruling, we simply don,t allow that here.
I know some of our "groups" are difficult to deal with and are full of unpractical idealism, but we just have to deal with them, as if we start banning them we will ban ourselves back to the darkages and islam will win by default.
Posted by: meredith
at March 27, 2006 11:27 PM
I still maintain that secularism in the "West" is Islam's greatest aider and abettor and a prime source of converts to Islam as secularism is by nature ultimately nihilistic and numan nature seeks meaning rather than nihilism.
Mike,
The nihilists are totally lost I agree. I think its more a part of this faddish 20 odd years of PC rather than secular society that breeds them. We were a secular society in WW2 as well.
I see our secularism as our weapon against islam.
I have athiest gay and marxists mates who can see islam as bad, they were slow on the uptake but the seperation is coming.
Posted by: meredith at March 27, 2006 11:35 PM
I just managed to show a friend that there is more to the cartoon issue than his 'I don't think we should have provoked them'. I asked him exactly which muslim voice we should listen to when curbing our tongues - fundamentalists who allow NO drawings of living things? Taliban-types who blew up the buddha statues and would destroy most of western art? Or Hirsi Ali, Irmshad Manji and the Free Muslim Coalition, who think the cartoons are a valid and important expression?
I think he went away with more insight and curiosity about the truth of islamism.
So let's keep gently and honestly showing people the truth and they will start to see...
Posted by: Lili at March 28, 2006 12:03 AM
1. Let them make their own mind up...they have a fine culture dating back far further than your mediocre white culture.
2. I have stated before that womens in democracy are subject to far too many freedoms. Then they go & lose their way...they hanker for a way...a labour of love and discipline in life...and Islam provides that perfectly.
3. But there are some very able and attractive muslim men...why did she have to pick on him?
Posted by: Naseem at March 27, 2006 04:33 AM
----------
Naseem:
Your lack of mental capability still astounds me.
1. If it wasn't for the "mediocre white culture" the oil would still be below the sand in the ME.
2. In American Muslim love and discipline to a female is called battery, the guy generally goes to jail if her male relatives do not get to him first.
3. I have never seen an able nor attractive muslim man. Also, I have never met a brave male muslim. Male muslims run from all other men that stand up to them.
You are lost and do not realize it. You need to experience what American women and women of the western civilizations experience to truly experience love and appreciation.
The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
at March 28, 2006 12:34 AM
Texican, would some good self-defence training also make them run from women they try to attack, say, in Sweden?
Posted by: Lili at March 28, 2006 12:42 AM
Texican, would some good self-defence training also make them run from women they try to attack, say, in Sweden?
Posted by: Lili at March 28, 2006 12:42 AM
----------
Lili, yes and a 38-Special would help.
Posted by: Texican at March 28, 2006 10:39 PM
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)