It is so apparent that there are no moderates in islam and when one stands up to profess his moderation we can only shake our heads and say "Taquiya"...they lie like a rug and hope everyone is convinced of their aspirations, well we are not fooled in the least bit by these presentations and we know what you really mean.

The koran reads like Sun Tzu's "Art of War" and every mooslem is indoctrinated into it at birth to fulfill its prophecies at the cost of anything to promote islam to the one and only religion(LOL) in the world.

When their lips move they are lying.

Posted by: chuck at April 20, 2006 6:00 AM

the only time l will hang the sign of moderate muslim over a person, is when they can say Israel has a right to exist peacefully within their borders. and condemms the practice of suicide killes bombers. note no Christian Arab has killed this way, its not in a Christian's mentality or doctrine.
so a moderate muslim is one who has learned their idology is evil and leaves it for good!

Posted by: Lulu at April 20, 2006 7:02 AM

My nominations for Moderate Muslim:

Big Pharoah

SandMonkey

Iraq the Model

Posted by: Gary at April 20, 2006 7:12 AM

There are no moderate muslims.

Robert: But Hathout's book is ultimately an exercise in constructing his Own Private Islam, since the faith he delineates exists nowhere in the world today, and never has.

He wants to create his own religion with himself in charge...that makes him an apostate...why is he still alive?

Posted by: duh_swami at April 20, 2006 7:43 AM

Whenever a Maher Hathout arises, one has to ask oneself a series of questions.

Would I, you ask yourself, if I had a complete knowledge of the contents of the Qur'an, and the Hadith (or at least of the most "authentic" Hadith, as determined by the most authoritative muhaddithin, Bukhari and Muslim), and knew everything about Muhammad, uswa hasana al-insan al-kamil, and that includes Abu Akaf, and Asma bint Marwan, and little Aisha, and the Jewish farmers of the Khaybar Oasis, and the decapitated prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, and so much else that cannot be ignored (and of course Muhammad who said that "war is deception" and who practiced what he preached, not least in his "treaty" with the Meccans at Hudaibiyyah, which then became the permanent model for Muslim agreements with Infidels -- so that all "peace" treaties are merely "truce" treaties to be broken by the Muslim side whenever they feel strong enough to continue.

And then I ask myself -- and we all ask ourselves - a question. Could we, knowing all this, remain as Muslims? What would keep us from leaving Islam? Filial piety? A desire not to break ties with families here or back home? Simple mental inertia, so that we will continue to present Our Own Private Islam, and hope that by presenting it, this will make our own lives earlier? Indifference, or perhaps something more sinister, about the fact that we are still misleading Infidels -- except at a higher, and more complicated level? Why not leave Islam altogether?

None of this will ever be asked, point-blank, to the Maher Hathouts of this world, nor will he ask it of himself. He will not be asked for all kinds of reasons. It would be, some feel, impolite. Why subject to the third-degree someone who is not a supporter of Al Qaeda -- though Hezbollah seems to be earning his support. So many are satisfied with so little, in their eagerness to believe that Islam is not what it is, and what every single apostate has told us it is, and we are told, by Muslims, that apostates, by the mere act of their apostasy, have suddenly forgotten everything that they once knew about Islam, and are not to be trusted.

In a world where the Muslim mode of presentation is always the apologetic (not as in "I'm sorry" but as in "I'm defending the faith against all comers"), Hathout is simply somewhat cleverer. He realizes that certain information is out there. He may quote from Bat Ye'or, a bit, because he knows it is too late to prevent her books from being known. So he does what you or I, if we were Believers, and not stupid, would try to do -- to make the best of a bad job.

It isn't enough. Unless and until he answers everything about those passages, and above all discusses the figure of Muhammad, and then tells us why, given all that is wrong with Islam -- a little of which he admits, but more apparently than the Khaled Abou el Fadls, or the Mustafa Akyols (the "sola scriptura" man who is going to convince the world's Muslims to throw out the Hadith and the biography of Muhammad, and stick to the Qur'an -- which is quite enough, thank you, to fill Infidels with dread).

It would be instructive to study the "evolution" of Hathout's thought, or at least changes in his public discussion of Islam. . Has he, since 2001, seen fit to become even more ostentatiously "moderate" in his Own Private Islam, seen the need, that is, to fess up to more of the truth as more Infidels (and those pesky refugees from Islam who even end up living in places like California) learn more and more, and the mixture as before will not do?

Yes, study his work not only synchronically but diachronically, and see if, the more knowledge he realizes is out there, and cannot be put back, the more he in turn suddenly has found it necessary to admit to? Find this out by comparing his statements of five or ten or fifteen years ago with what he says today.

Students looking for papers -- here's your topic.

"The curious 'evolution' of a Muslim 'moderate': The case of Maher Hathout."

It could be put up here.

Posted by: Hugh at April 20, 2006 8:08 AM

duh_swami:

I'm no expert on the topic, but Ibn Warraq, who is far more expert than you, me or Spencer, says that there are, indeed, moderate Muslims; it is Islam that isn't moderate.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at April 20, 2006 8:10 AM

THE ISLAMIC THREAT: Myth or Reality?

by Khaled Abou al Fandl

THIS IS CLASSIC KITMAN!

This is the latest effort in the grand attempt to create "parallel" institutions in a "parallel" structure for the DOMINANT SOCIETY and the more things get so damn parallel the more I feel I'm sinking. This is the well-disguised and heavily-scented "muslim in sheep's clothing" -and the better the smell the harder the bite BEWARE

Lee Baca No! Not LA! Not MY CITY! NO! NIMBY!!

The Vermont St. mosque huh? When I drove by there and surveyed the masses of the faithful by the hundred, simple robes and stenciled caps, with downcast stern brow dead eyed glare their bushy unkempt beards provocative milling about in clusters and crowds spilling off the sidewalk and pouring thru the streets and everywhere nothing woman no spirit no warmth and nothing cool on that hot day oppresive So Far Away from the sunday christian hispanics in my grungy Old Town union San Pedro whole families
handsomely dressed men the women beautiful brownskinned with long hair so black black skirts white blouses so crisp and starchy and bleached trailing children with girls in bright dresses and the boys running and laughing and playing and they all flow by in great processions little migrations bearing gifts for the altar on the good day and time is so nice when the sun is out and its shining

Yes, Islam and the "Rest"

and how did I know that it would be Just That Mosque?

OH IRV! WHERE ART THOU RUBIN!?

you were not diminished

Posted by: hasan salami at April 20, 2006 8:14 AM

A "moderate" muslim?

They tend not to live very long after they are found out. Muslim behavior is like that of a street gang....... that is, go along with the leaders, or else, i.e., be murdered.

To be a moderate muslim is to have a death sentence issued against you, in all likelihood one that will be carried out. If there's one thing muslims hate even more than jews and christians and free people everywhere, it's when one of their own goes straight.

Posted by: stephen lodahl at April 20, 2006 9:41 AM

Waterdragon52...if it is true (and it is) that Islamic literature says,'it is the 'obligation' of 'every' muslim to support and participate in jihad, where are the moderates? Those that refuse die as hypocrites...no heaven for hypocrites...seems black and white to me...no real muslim wants to die a hypocrite and miss out on heaven...you know where muslim hypocrites go...
Have a good day...

Posted by: duh_swami at April 20, 2006 11:06 AM

A moderate Muslim is one who's gun has jammed.

Intellectual pistol or literal AK-47.

Anyone who reads the Koran, Hadiths, et al, and still finds anything there to support, is delusional, or inhumane to a fault.

The tactical manual of a pedophile "prophet" for total, eternal war is hardy anything a decent person could find worthy to defend.

So "moderate" Muslims are unable to spit out the bad meat of Islam.

Which leaves a judgmnent upon them of:

-unable to distinguish evil from good, and therefore a "moral imbecile". (Hardly someone you want in your foxhole druing wartime.)

Or:

-cunning liar. (Ditto.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 20, 2006 1:00 PM

TYPO above-

That should be "...whose gun has jammed.", not "who's".

Think of owls, for some reason.

(Predators who repeat the same meaningless sounds over and over before they strike.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 20, 2006 1:04 PM

I don't blame people for eschewing the "holy warrior" role as an Islamic reformer. Very few people want to debate medieval texts with little relevance to today's world, usually for little money, and at great threat to their lives.

Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina are heroes of mine for that reason. They could have escaped without conveying what they'd learned.

Nor can I criticize those who construct personal Islamic belief structures out of whatever they pick and choose from Islamic texts. The smorgasbord view of religion is one of the things which makes America great.

But those who claim to be a reformer or claim to represent Islam - while ignoring what mainstream clerics say all over the world, and the majority interpretations of Islamic writing - are no help, and in fact hinder efforts to create understanding in the freeish world.

The mainstream media has done very little to nothing to educate people in mainstream Islam. One recent exception is the Moussaoui trial. Given the state of knowledge, no wonder Moussaoui seems "paranoid schitzophrenic" or "a victim of a terrible childhood." I'd add "sociopath" and then we're beginning to construct a model of what happens when someone overdoses on a literal interpretation of Islamic scripture. The paranoia stems from Islamic beliefs about non-Muslims, the schitzophrenia from trying to reconcile confusing and contradictory passages in Islamic texts, the miserable childhood from Islamic beliefs, and the sociopathy from the previously mentioned beliefs about non-Muslims.

Unfortunately, for the rest of us, Moussaoui didn't get any of these pathologies from a disease or defect of the brain. It's all learned behavior. We see it time and again.

It's the mosques, stupid.

Posted by: Beagle at April 20, 2006 1:08 PM

duh_swami:

By citing "Islamic literature", you demonstrate clearly that you miss my point, or more truly, Ibn Warraq's point entirely.

There are people who identify as Muslims on the same basis that I identify as a Jew -- as a part of their cultural heritage, the faith of their ancestors, but otherwise reject Islamic religious teachings and practices. I don't know how many self-identified Muslims fall into this category, but I read elsewhere this morning -- I think it was Wolfgang Bruno's comments on Ali Sina's recently completed but yet to be published book, or possibly on Harry's Place -- that the number is about 10 - 15%, or roughly the equivalent of the foamers-at-the-mouth contingent (in Daniel Pipes's estimation).

Posted by: waterdragon52 at April 20, 2006 1:08 PM

The Myth of Moderate Islam:

See Patrick Sookhdeo's article

Posted by: yaqub at April 20, 2006 2:04 PM

While I once held out hope that Islam might undergo a Reformation of its own, I no longer hold to that idea. It could happen, but only by violent force, and who are we going to turn to for that here in the United States?

No, it is these so-called "Muslim moderates" that would have to bring about the changes and suffer the wrath of the far greater numbers of devout Muslims who would surely seek their deaths, kidnappings or torture at some point. We've seen how a man's own family can turn on him with this airing of laundry from Afghanistan vs Apostasy in recent months, so no sane individual would ever walk the path of Islamic Reformation without having a contingent of bodyguards and/or a deathwish.

So, I say this: we must remove Islam from the United States. If we have a contingent of American Muslims that are truly loyal to the USA, then that is most likely coming from the African-American community. But this community of Muslims is very much in ignorance of the worst parts of the Koran from what I know from so many of the interviews and phone calls to radio and tv talk shows that I have listened in on since 9/11.
This ignorance might be something to be embraced as a counter to Islam, but it would still demand an alteration -- a new name for the sect, for one thing and a new name for the religion interpreted by such "moderates."

Islam in its purest form needs to be erradicated from this planet. That much I am absolutely convinced of by now. It poses the worst threat to the future of the human species that I believe has ever manifested.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 20, 2006 2:36 PM

There are many Muslims that are moderate. My next door neighbor when I was young was a Muslim family, and they were very friendly people.

But it is the religion that ultimately is the judge of what a Muslim must and will be. You see, some Muslims may be moderate and wants to live in peace with others, but Islam "ordains" jihad for them, whether they like it or not :

‘Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike something which is good for you and that you like something which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.’ (Surah 2:216)

A Muslims has no choice but to submit to what Allah has commanded.

In fact, it was the Sufis and the moderate Arab merchants that brought Islam to Malaysia and Indonesia. But as time pass, as the local people began to be taught in Islam, things and attitude change. Malaysia and Indonesia are both changing more and more radical, and there have been and will continue to have clamors for Sharia to be implemented. How can a good Muslim say no to the question : "Do you want God's Law to govern your life". To say no is tantamount to being an apostate.

Posted by: yaqub at April 20, 2006 5:05 PM

Seems to me that the whole concept of the "moderate mohammedan" is related to ratios, that is the ratio of mohammedans to non-mo's. Its a simple game of math. Just like one with Nazi sympathies would not walk alone into a kibbutz yelling "sieg hiel!", most mohammedans have enough brain cells to realize that running around squealing "death to infidels!" is probably not a good idea while in the midst of that non-mohammedan population.
Moderate describes their actions when the situation and circumstances call for it.
Moderate does not describe the substance of their thoughts.

Posted by: Eisenhund at April 20, 2006 5:19 PM

that the number is about 10 - 15%, or roughly the equivalent of the foamers-at-the-mouth contingent (in Daniel Pipes's estimation). Posted by: waterdragon52

Waterdragon52

Being ignorant of Islam's violent teachings and therefore not practicing them is not the same as knowing what they are and then explicitly rejecting them, a la Ali Sina. The 10-15% number seems to be those who know and endorse the love-laden verses.

Of the remaining 85%, there are two possibilities that can occur once those people become consciously aware about their cult

• They abhor what they read, and shed Islam altogether. In which case, they become apostates - probably closet ones, particularly if they live in a country where they'd get executed for being a deserter.
  
• They join the ranks of the Jihad

The latter is a risk that we infidels can't afford to live with. Which is why their being ignorant about it is a dangerous state of unstable equilibrium, which could turn either way any time. Particularly if one generation is blissfully ignorant, followed by a very extreme next generation. Note how in Britain today's Muslims seem far more extreme than their parents who first emigrated.

Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina seem to use differing terminology. While the former describes those who are Muslims-for-identification-purposes-only, the latter describes them as hypocrites who are out to deceive infidels as to the real nature of the threat Islam poses.

I tend to agree with Ali Sina. As for Warraq, while he's right about Islam, he seems to water down the hatred that Muslims possess towards infidels. He may be on the J/W board, but I take his statements with a pinch of salt; however, he is useful in terms of being convincing to Muslims to jettison their cult. I heard him as a guest on KSFO some 3 weeks ago, and he cut a sorry figure when asked some questions that a Hugh or an Ali Sina would have relished being asked, such as whether Islam is a vehicle for Arab imperialism, whether Muslims face threats from their own families if they apostate, and similar questions.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at April 20, 2006 5:22 PM

WD/52...I guess I an stuck on the words 'every', and 'obligated'.

Posted by: duh_swami at April 20, 2006 6:14 PM

All Taqqiya and biding time when such claims to "moderate islam" are no longer necessary.

If Maher Hathout believes that the koran is a load of... then he should at the least condemn it. If he does not then it is the same Taqqiya to fool the ever ever gullible Western journalists and academics.

Posted by: DP111 at April 20, 2006 8:45 PM

Hathout: The REAL harm here is that Islam will kill people through the use of Muslims who pretend to be 'moderates'...

Safety must come first. Americans will never be safe as long as they permit Muslims to migrate to America. No reliable means of separating the phony moderate Muslims from the rest exists, nor does any way of separating the potential "sudden jihadists" from the rest exist. Shall we continue to allow Muslims to move to America and see which among them murder Americans and which among them don't? That's about the only way. And that's not good enough. Not even almost.

A pity. You might actually mean what you say.

ps-since islam is a totalitarian political system even 'moderate' Muslims could end up being drafted into jihad warfare against their will. As we all know by now, heads will roll...

Posted by: pythagoras at April 20, 2006 8:56 PM

Being ignorant of Islam's violent teachings and therefore not practicing them is not the same as knowing what they are and then explicitly rejecting them, a la Ali Sina.

How could a Moslem be ignorant of these commandments from the kornaic god? After all, the Noble Koran is only 200 pages long. And you can't go 5 pages into the Hadiths before you stumble upon some beaming report or other of head chopping, night murder, theft, terrorism, sex slavery, racial supremacism, world takeoverism, the shaving of pubic hair, how to go to poop, the killing of wig-wearing Jewesses, or dog-killing.

Among other things. Islamic scripture is indeed a rich and complex tapestry. But of what?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at April 20, 2006 10:05 PM

There are people who identify as Muslims on the same basis that I identify as a Jew -- as a part of their cultural heritage...

Now stop right there, Dragon.

Do liberal or fallen Jews self-identify with world takeover, termination of all freedom, murder of any non-Jew who dares criticize Judaism, pedophilia, sex slavery and... heck, you know the list.

Do they?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at April 20, 2006 10:10 PM

"As a physician, I know that foreign bodies are eventually rejected." The success of his own integration was marked when he was selected to deliver the invocation at the 2000 Democratic National Convention in L.A.

Foreign bodies rejected. Democrats, who of course are Marxists, as are the almost all Republians(i.e., RINOs).

Let there be rejection. Under the Unequal Protection Clause as set forth by the Democratic and RINO parties, of course.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at April 21, 2006 1:19 AM

"...foreign bodies..." are not rejected in the case where they kill their host.

Or replace them.

Islam is most like the parasitic cuckoo.

Deceiving unsuspecting parent birds by laying its eggs in their nests and, when the invader bird hatches, its instinct is to throw the true eggs, or live baby birds, out of the nest.

The deluded parent birds then ignorantly feed the killer of their own real children, mistaking the murderous mimick for their own kin.

It's called p.c. multi-culturalism in the human version.

End result: self-genocide.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 21, 2006 2:23 AM

I also believe it is now obvious that Islam is inimical to Western civilization, and a threat to it. For this reason, it follows that no one who professes to follow Islam should be permitted to become a US citizen, be allowed to enroll in our universities and study hard sciences, technology, or engineering, or reside here for extended periods. To accord Muslims US citizenship is a recipe for disaster, as the policy of the womb will eventually result in large Muslim populations, with voting rights, which will lead to lobbying and political pandering for Muslim votes. This will have the effect of promoting Muslim agendas, and all that this entails (i.e. the Eurabia paradigm). To support this contention, consider how the politicians have been fearful and unwilling to pass any robust measures to curb the flood of illegal aliens streaming into our country for fear of offending the Hispanics who do have voting rights, even if this fear is baseless (and it is not, I think, entirely so). Can you imagine politicians who have a significant Muslim constituency passing legislation intended to curb Muslim immigration here, or supporting other measures to cut or eliminate foreign aid to Muslim countries, etc? Politicians will capitulate to Muslim constituencies in order to be re-elected. The larger the Muslim constituency, the more compromised the rest of us will be. It is important to be aware that Muslims are very active politically here, and voter participation among them is high. We should be very troubled by this, indeed, and understand what it bodes for the rest of us.

Posted by: commonsense at April 21, 2006 3:40 AM

Alarmed Pig Farmer:

What's your point? My point is that I know some thoroughly secular Muslims, but I don't pretend that they are the majority. They are not observant in any way; they simply acknowledge the fact that Islam was the religion their families practiced from the time their home country was conquered, but otherwise look upon it as superstition that has been imposed upon their people to their enormous detriment. And if my example ain't good enough for you, please go to MEMRI.org and retrieve the video clip of Wafa Sultan, the Syrian born psychologist who lives in L.A. who recently gave a thorough verbal drubbing to some bearded old goat on Al-Jazeerah TV.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at April 21, 2006 8:20 AM

A 'secular Muslim' is simpy an apostate-in-training.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 21, 2006 11:18 AM

APF

Your point is well taken, but I was refuting Waterdragon52's apparent assertion (since clarified) that a majority of Muslims are moderate. That's something we infidels have no way of knowing, and the only sane thing for us to do is to assume that all of them are psychotic killers, and let the exceptions drop off as they become clear. If someone doesn't look like an assassin, it's more likely because they are unaware about the Quran, rather than because they reject it.

That's my assumption, and I'm sticking to it.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at April 21, 2006 5:16 PM