why hasn't the US government using the internet for propaganda the same way the fanticals have?instead they surf for info,why not get some of those high paid government hackers and start attacking thier sites and some internet savy people to take advantage and post some positive American propaganda.

Posted by: SAtarzan at May 5, 2006 12:39 AM

"The goal is 'to help train U.S. forces deploying to Iraq on radical Islam and the need to respect Arabic and Muslim culture,' said House Intelligence Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich.'"
-- from the article above

Congressman Hoekstra has appeared more than once to talk about that impossible dream, "winning Muslim hearts and minds" -- the impossibility and dreaminess of which he might understand if he only would look closely, study for a week, the contents of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira (the biography of Muhammad). Then he would understand that a belief-system that at every step divides the world between Believer and Infidel, and between Dar al-Islam (the Land or Domain or House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (the House of War, where Infidels still control things), cannot be overcome when it suffuses every aspect of a society, including ordinary speech, and where no one can openly leave it, or even whisper one's doubts without endangering oneself. Until that is understood, nothing sensible can be planned or executed.

As for the statement above, it should be amended. To amke sense one should:

1) strike "radical" before "Islam" and change "on" to "about"

2) change "respect" to "understand"

Now that sentence reads:

"The goal is 'to help train U.S. forces deploying to Iraq about Islam and the need to understand Arabic and Muslim culture,' said House Intelligence Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich.'

That's much better.

Posted by: Hugh at May 5, 2006 12:39 AM

Hopefully they (the agents involved in counter-terrorism) take your advice Robert and get their heads out of the PC sandbox.

Posted by: Patriot_1/17 at May 5, 2006 12:45 AM

OT but on target:

http://www.foehammer.net/2006/05/savage-burkman-pulling-no-punches-with.html

From tonight's "The Savage Nation" radio talk show with Michael Savage. Grab a drink and take a listen to the capture I made. I know you will all enjoy what they have to say.

Word is finally starting to get out. The PC establishment is losing the iron grip on our tongues.

Posted by: Foehammer at May 5, 2006 12:56 AM

Well, if they don't take their heads out of the sand box, they may leave their heads in the icebox.

The US does need to do a lot more with the Internet.

I hope they're using A Aaron Weisburd as a consultant and I hope they're closing down sites and going after web hosts in the US...this should be done cooperatively and internationally.

Posted by: HaMalach at May 5, 2006 12:57 AM

The article says: "'we've seen products that are aimed at ages even lower than 7,' testified Pentagon contractor Ron Roughhead. His company wasn't identified, for security reasons."

Not identified for security reasons???

It took me all of about 30 seconds with Google to "out" Col. Roughead. He and the two companies he works for are mentioned twice here:

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/caocl/ConfsandEvents/mef.pdf

(you need Adobe Acrobat reader)

Posted by: Steven L. at May 5, 2006 1:35 AM

Let the Pentagon surf all it wants.

Jihadwatch and dhimmiwatch are among the best informative sites that present the real facts about Islam.

Posted by: Johnathan at May 5, 2006 2:02 AM

Senator Hoekstra:
Please use the following website to help train the soliders about Arabic and Muslim culture:
http://www.domini.org/openbook/

Posted by: Johnathan at May 5, 2006 2:04 AM

Now stevenL. why would you go and do something like that whos side are you on any way??

Nothing like help-ing the enemy although it was the PRESS who put the Guys name out there and it was congress who allowed it to be said?

But come on whos side are you on anyway?

some people keep somethings quite?

The polis once again can not keep their mouths shut just tring to look like they are on the job.

Well like i said in another post this is a real war and people are getting killed this is not just some key bord fun?

Hope spencer takes off your post!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer

Posted by: Catherine at May 5, 2006 2:30 AM

Good post foehammer,

Savage is always informative!

Posted by: km at May 5, 2006 2:44 AM

arab and muslim "culture" ?

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 5, 2006 3:04 AM

arab and muslim "culture" ? ? ?

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 5, 2006 3:05 AM

arab and muslim "culture" ?

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 5, 2006 3:05 AM

It was a relief to hear Jack Burkman, on Savage's program, dispel the nonsensical received wisdom that Islam is a religion of peace. He did so emphatically, with exasperation. Even Savage is becoming more aware of Islam, as he has apparently, by his own admission, read at least parts of the Koran, despite his calling the chapters "sutras" instead of "suras." However, by his (and Burkman's) repeated use of the phrases "radical" Islam and "radical" Arabs, both individuals demonstrate that their paradigm shift is not complete. Savage should, in fact, know better, as he has had Robert Spencer on his show as a guest on several occasions. Nonetheless, I think the principle of naskh is finally being applied to the "religion of peace" idiocy - it's being abrogated and replaced by what, to most people, is becoming more and more obvious - Islam is a martial, violent, imperialist, maximalist, triumphalist, intolerant, terrifying ideology. Feel free to add your own adjectives.

Posted by: commonsense at May 5, 2006 5:37 AM

OT: I am sure everyone on this site will join with me in commiserating Britain's brilliant, firm, insightful and strikingly vigorous politician Jack Straw on the loss of his Foreign Office post. Straw has been demoted to Leader of the House of Commons, and what is more his post effectively no longer exists: Tony Blair has divided its duties between a Secretary of State for Europe and a Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. Every reader of these columns will know how to mourn the loss of Mr.Straw's strong hand and remarkable understanding of the Muslim mind. Capitals across the Muslim world, as well as many meritorious voluntary organizations such as Al Qaida, are sure to be in mourning.

Posted by: Paolo at May 5, 2006 6:01 AM

The goal is "to help train U.S. forces deploying to Iraq on radical Islam and the need to respect Arabic and Muslim culture," said House Intelligence Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich.

I guess Senator Hoekstra needs to respect Muslims when he speaks about anything considering they are the fastest growing population group in Michigan. Anything remotely construed as negative to Muslims would bring a flooded switchboard at his office.

Senator Hoekstra=dhimmi hostage

Hugh is on his game again:

"The goal is 'to help train U.S. forces deploying to Iraq about Islam and the need to understand Arabic and Muslim culture,' said House Intelligence Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich.'

Posted by: detoquevilledisciple at May 5, 2006 6:47 AM

Like Paolo I would also just like to express my profound and utter sadness that Mr Straw is no longer giving us his full competence and special understanding of Islam and it place in the world and the UK as foreign secretary. It is sad that those poor misguided Muslims who follow the mis-understood religion of peace will have to work just that bit harder to acheive their goal of world domination without our lightweight semi-Muslim foreign secretary, yes I am sad and deeply troubled, damn that, tonight I will be drinking that 15 year old Cote Rotie in celebration, yipeeee!!!! The Roast beef eating surrender monkey has gone!!! yipeee!!!

He has gone, the European countries are starting to get their teeth into immigration, there may be hope after all.

Posted by: Daffersd at May 5, 2006 7:20 AM

Imagine if this was done in 1942:

The goal is "to help train U.S. forces deploying to Europe on radical Fascism and the need to respect German and Nazi culture," said House Intelligence Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at May 5, 2006 7:45 AM

A senate committee has reported that in some states in India, minorities (read muslims) are given second grade treatment. Recently there has been the phenomenon of economic boycott of muslims in some places in India. Hindus that know where it's at are not buying from muslim shopkeepers,not hiring mulsim help,and even not sitting in cabs run by muslims. I myself do so. This is the first concrete step that we can take. They are thriving on our money. Until we find a substitute for crude,at least I can make sure the local mo's time is spent in trying to earn his daily bread instead of cooking up some kind of bombs in the local mosque.
Somebody tell the senators about jihadwatch.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 5, 2006 8:03 AM

Paolo and Daffersd:

I'm sure Straw's demotion is good news, but isn't the Foreign Office a rat's nest of its own? Who is going to be running it now?

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 5, 2006 8:04 AM

oh please be looking at this web feds now listen.iran is waiting for the 12th imam,they want chaos.they do not want money or friends.they are not nice people who want fair trade and harmony.slow down breath,let reatity sink in and BOMB THE TARGET.

Posted by: campingman1 at May 5, 2006 8:11 AM

waterdragon52

"Mr Clarke will be replaced by Defence Secretary John Reid. Margaret Beckett is the new foreign secretary, with Jack Straw becoming Commons leader. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4975938.stm

Marge info: http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page1383.asp

She's a new labour crony and I've got no idea where she stands on Islam. Hopefully she won't be "burqa-ing up". As an engineer I hope she's got some integrity and common sense.

Posted by: mazztr at May 5, 2006 8:25 AM

Also I'd watch this one: "Commons leader Geoff Hoon will become Europe minister"

Goeff Hoon is widely regarded as a complete fool, think a more characterless and weak man than Straw and you've got the picture. He's a man of little vision or insight.

I can't wait to see how long until we're all talking French and eating onions for breakfast ;-0

Posted by: mazztr at May 5, 2006 8:42 AM

Maybe there is a job opening for me here somewhere..there is plenty of anti-semitic and other jihadi stuff coming out in Maldivian language...
and yes, they start teaching the kids very young.

Posted by: The Pig Loving Maldivian at May 5, 2006 8:47 AM

Hulegu Khan, excellent, lol and I though Hugh's original was an excellent point, its wordings like yours that really show we have completely lost the plot in defending ourselves.

Waterdragon52, yes the foreign office is notorious, if they don't work at the BBC they are in the FO.
Margret Beckett, I have not paid much attention to her, but I always saw her as a sour faced total socialist, I expect the only good thing about her and dealing with Islam as the Foreign Secretary is the fact that as a woman she will most probabaly find them difficult..., now why aren't they shaking my hand?

Posted by: Daffersd at May 5, 2006 8:54 AM

Of course, what one wishes to hear is not only that a few dozen people are surfing "Jihadi" websites, but simply going to the mainstream websites of Muslims in the West, to keep track of the advice given on how to conduct Da'wa, targetting what particularly vulnerable populations, and how to win over Infidels.

At JW many Muslim sites are worth following, and the government should be tracking all the advise given to Muslims, on Muslim webistes, as to how to "present" Islam. The very idea that one must be told how to do it, what rhetorical and other strategies to employ, should astonish. But a study of, and collection of, such advice (everything from being sure to offer food, or concentrating on subjects such as Ramadan and the five canonical prayers, and denying or avoiding entirely the subjects of Jihad and of course the Dhimmi -- a word no Muslim will ever voluntarily bring up or discuss with Infidels), should also be the subject not only of Pentagon surfers, but of others tracking the infiltration everywhere in the countries of the West.

For example, several leading Muslim websites explain to "brothers" that, when Infidels ask questions about the treatment of women, make sure that you "allow" a "Muslimah" to reply. That will show that women are fully independent, as they tell one and all how delighted they are to carry around the "portable seclusion" of the burqah or the warning-sign of the hijab, and just how wonderful it is to be a Muslim woman (a "revert" will usually be more enthusiastic about this -- and you don't want any female ex-Muslims from the Middle East coming in and spoiling things).

Or, as has previously been posted here, a great deal of attention is given as to how to win favors from school administrators and teachers, for prayer rooms and so on. Parents are instructed to be "polite and soft-spoken at first" and only if their demands are thwarted, then to raise holy hell. Nothing, of course, is said about the First Amendment and Constitutional limits. Nothing is said about offending Infidels or about what would happen if non-Muslimis made similar demands -- made any demands at all, come to think of it -- in Muslim countries.

No, it is all a matter of tactics. Demonstrate sweet reason. And invite teachers and principals home for a good meal. Food is the way to an Infidel's heart (the most importnat part of the false-show-and-false-tell of all those Mosque Outreach programs, those phony "Muslim-Christian" and "Muslim-Jewish Dialogues" which are always and everywhere special pleading on behalf of Islam, with nothing owned up to about the contents of the Qur'an and Hadith (oh, the Hadith and Sira are NEVER mentioned), nothing about the 1350-year Jihad-conquests and subjugation of non-Muslims Show them that Muslims are good family men, etc. Show them that we have family to exhibit their as to how they should "allow" Muslim women to speak about the treatment of women under Islam -- "allow" them to defend that very belief-system in which, but only when the men have been told to "allow" them to speak to Infidels in defense of Islam. It would not do, after all, to have the Muslim men take the lead and discuss how wonderful women have it (with those Muslimahs silent in the background), but since it would possibly not occur to all of them to let the Muslimahs speak on this occasion, for public-relations purposes, they must be told, at these websites, to do so.

One hopes that all this information on the
How to Present Islam to Infidels will be the subject of many articles, and even books -- financed by foundations and, hone hopes, also Western governments. They need to track the advice given, and forewarn Infidels just how it all works. Their duty is to protect, and part of protection requires, in this case, instruction in the tactics and strategems of the Defenders, and Spreaders, of Islam. Taqiyya and kitman do not cover everything; oozing attempts to curry favor (sometimes with curry) are also part of the game.

A guide to all the techinques used, and to the half-dozen Qur'anic passages, and apocryphal (inauthentic) Hadiths (the one about Muhammad returning from war, from "the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad," is an especial favorite), sometimes invoked not only by the cunning but also by innocent Muslims who want to believe, for their own sanity, so that they can in good conscience remain Muslims (who wants to face up to the history of the real contents of that belief-system -- very few, only very reluctantly)that the Happy Face of Islam they present to Infidels can, if only we all agree to play Let's Pretend, become the real thing. It can't. It won't. Hundreds of millions of people will refuse to play.

Only the truth here will do, howeever unpleasant it may be.

Posted by: Hugh at May 5, 2006 9:25 AM

commonsense:

I agree that the continued usage of "radical" as an adjective to describe Islam by interviewers like Savage and almost all persons in the media is aggravating, I think in the case of the particular segment that I have reposted, it is extremely important that we listen to the context of the discussion surrounding that so-called "radical" Islam.

In this case, the descriptions and implications are clear. Both Savage and Burkman agree together that Islam "is no religion of peace" -- that is huge, and up until this day I can not recall ever hearing anyone say something like this on American airwaves. I've SHOUTED IT from my living room or office many times, but I somehow doubt I'm even that loud for those waves to get much past my kitchen. ;)

Now, they also addressed the broken establishment, they both openly criticized the President AND called into question the real truth of why we do not seem to capture or kill the top Al Qaeda operatives (and I have to admit, that got me to really wondering), and they both implied that in the event of a nuclear attack on the United States, there would be no more "coddling" the Muslims community.

"Radical" Islam is used today to help protect the speaker. We all know this. It is a layer of insulation against the truth. If Islam was so benevolent and peaceful, no persons would have to continuously go to such extremes to markedly separate one "part" of Islam from "another" and this is a crime against Free Speech, of course.

When people bash Catholics, do you hear them ever say -- those "radical" Catholics are at it again!?
Of course not.

I will keep that segment available for people to hear as long as I am able. I think this spells a turning point in this conflict.

Foehammer

PS Having only discovered Savage's show in recent months, I was not aware that R. Spencer had been a guest on it before. I have to admit that this came as a surprise to me. Well, I think that Savage is more aware than he lets on, so I think that the facts are sinking in. Really though, it is imperative that men like Savage, Spencer, Burkman, you and I, the JW readers et. al -- that we all as the "collective spirit" of the U.S. and the West -- start banding together and making real noise to Washington and the public. None of us can win this debate in a void, but together we can stop this PC madness before it costs another 3,000 American lives.

Posted by: Foehammer at May 5, 2006 10:30 AM

Caroline, believe me, I meant no offense. I merely wished to demonstrate what I have complained about several times before on JW--the sheer impossibility of waging an effective war against our enemies when the Western democracies live under a magnifying glass of their own construction. The Pentagon hopes to surf jihadist websites and gather intelligence, but let's remember the jihadists can do the same thing to us, but much more effectively given our laxity and naivete. In World War II the slogan was "Loose Lips Sink Ships." Today the slogan should be "The Internet Is a War Zone."

Here's another example: A couple years ago I met a friend whom I hadn't seen in a long time. She offered to give me her telephone number so we could keep in touch. I told her I already knew her phone number. She was surprised; she said her telephone number is unlisted, and she asked me how I got it. I told her I got it from Google. What she forgot was that some time ago, she had attended a town meeting in her small town. Their rule required each citizen to provide the town council with their full name, address and phone number when intending to present information. Sure enough, the town council stupidly put the unexpurgated full minutes of the town meeting on their website. Google found it, indexed it, and now her "unlisted" phone number is there for the whole world to see!

Posted by: Steven L. at May 5, 2006 12:48 PM

Steven L and Catherine:

You both have a point. However, the freedom of the Internet is diminishing somewhat as various laws and rules are enforced more, plus ordinary muscling. I myself would be ginger about publicizing information regarding someone who may no know or be in a position to remove it; when someone's slip is showing (or fly unzipped) do you shout it out among a group of people or take the person aside privately and let them know in a low voice?

In contrast, this site: http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/, is run by a professional,(A Aaron Weisburd), has been reporting on and taking down (yes, taking down) Islamic sites, with the help of friends, for a few years. Check it out. Since it is a mirrored (duplicated) site, it is relatively immune from denial-of-service attacks. When sites such as IH are run or heavily advised by techies, they stand a good chance of surviving and doing their job.

The bureaucracy of the federal government will undoubtedly get in the way of any federal observers doing their job. Anyway, there are two tactics in this case. With the jihadis, 1) monitor their communications or 2) disrupt their communications. (There is of course also infiltrate their communcations). There's enough known about them so that major disruption should be done. They and their website hosts are breaking laws in many countries. The trick is to keep it up regularly. Also consider that the smarter among the Jihadis will use apparently innocuous or innocent sites to communicate information. But maybe they haven't connnected the dots to that yet. Using their standard sites for recruitment and advertising should however be slammed down.

Posted by: HaMalach at May 5, 2006 1:33 PM

Slammed down on.

Posted by: HaMalach at May 5, 2006 1:35 PM

And it's all brought to us by the same people who waited two years into the Iraq war to start teaching the Iraqi dialect of Arabic. I swear, had WW2 been faught in the same way, we might all be speaking Japanese or German now.

Posted by: DesertDawgN29 at May 5, 2006 2:04 PM

-HaMalach

You might want to check the link you posted. I'm getting a 404 Error. This one works.

Posted by: Eisenhund at May 5, 2006 2:52 PM

Thanks, Eisenhund.

Posted by: HaMalach at May 5, 2006 2:56 PM

No prob. The one you posted works with "www".

http://www.internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/

Posted by: Eisenhund at May 5, 2006 3:01 PM

http://internet-haganah.co.il/haganah/

It was because somehow that comma got in (?)
My bad for not checking.

Posted by: HaMalach at May 5, 2006 3:04 PM

Heh. They have more mirrors than a carnival funhouse.

Posted by: Eisenhund at May 5, 2006 3:09 PM

The network is the computer (Sun Microsystems). Have a good weekend.

Posted by: HaMalach at May 5, 2006 4:56 PM

You sometimes find the occasional rumbling of discontent, if not with Islam, then with the Moslem community on Islamic chatsites: hers an interesting entry on one, by a sophisticated southerner having a go at the uncouth northern Muslims in the UK (mirroring indigineous prejudices):

sorry but i was in leeds/bradistan for 3 years and it was a shock feast. the "siege mentality" up north is a situation far more extreme and serious then anywhere eles. children have the greatest problem with education, that cuz they spend most of the school year in pakistan and when they finish school age the girls are sent of back to pakistan to get married to the illiterate cousin or family member who has hit the jackpot and won a human visa, a sexual partner, a domestic servant, and thus the cycle of cultural oppression of muslim women continues (doese bradford and leeds need more taxi drivers or takeaway kebab shops workers and house bound sisters ) future generations of bradistan are gonna be [edited - please use language appropriate for a muslim forum - i can't say what i really mean but you can guess] you have the worst T.P. mentality i have ever seen and when you mix that with gangsta and asian CHAV its a deadly cocktail that the northern young follow more then any other British Pakistani youth. As for the "community elders" there a big help (NOT) with stoping all the gangs, drug dealing and prostitution run by Pakistani pimps, dealers and thugs. i didnt hear any jumma sermon condemning and telling the people to inform the police of all this kind of illicit activity. No they kept stum and buryed their heads in the sand. the culture of conning and ripping off people to the MAX is celebrated. Its an embarrassment when Anne Cryer stands up for muslim women and children before anyone from the community.

[T.P. = typical pakistani, Anne Cryer, Labour MP for Keighley: funnily enough 'stum' is an English slang word borrowed from Yiddish]

Posted by: wallyUK at May 5, 2006 7:44 PM

Foehammer:

I agree that it is a significant and gratifying development to actually hear a major media figure emphatically refute the presumption that Islam is a religion of peace. However, virtually everyone else in the mainstream media (and in our government, and in the military, and in the CIA and FBI, for God's sake)remain dedicated to upholding what might as well be called Omerta where the truth about Islam is concerned. This must end.
I also heard the discussion between Savage and Burkman concerning why OBL has not yet been apprehended, and I am skeptical of Burkman's assertion that the USA does not want him captured. I believe, rather (for what it's worth, as I sit here in Middle America, fulminating at the keyboard), that we have relied too much on Pakistani and Afghani "assistance", and they have warned him and his cohorts, time and again, as to when our troops are approaching, so that he may leave safely before our troops arrive. After all, most Muslims regard OBL as a hero. And Pakistani and Afghani troops are...Muslims.

Posted by: commonsense at May 5, 2006 11:06 PM

I'm new here and I'm glad I found Jihad Watch. This site is just great !!!

The Pentagon should have started this long ago, I'm sure they could have prevented some terror attacks, probably even 9/11.

Hope they browse all possible sites, arrest the terrorists and lock them away.

Posted by: uspatriot1488 at May 5, 2006 11:44 PM