Related article from AP/Yahoo! News:

"Critics Want Dutch Lawmaker Deported"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060514/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_lawmaker

Posted by: Shinoliite at May 13, 2006 11:25 PM

OT, but Robert can you tell Ms Hirsi Ali about International Apostacy Day?

Posted by: Voltaire at May 13, 2006 11:28 PM

She is a hero. It is easy for us, mostly safely in the US, posting on Jihad Watch under nicknames to speak the truth, but for her to do so is another mater; she puts her money, her life where her mouth is. I would love it if she came to America. This is one Moslem I would vote for for congress. She speaks the truth in an unflinching manner and she's easy on the eyes.

Posted by: biorabbi at May 13, 2006 11:40 PM

For those who care about such matters:

A self-righteous poster, "humanrightsforall," who posted a number of haughty messages denouncing Jihad Watch on various grounds and threatening to report posters here to the FBI, turns out to be the same person as "ILOVEHUGH," who earlier today posted a large number of juvenile, semi-pornographic comments here.

The IP, of course, has been banned, and all posts removed.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at May 13, 2006 11:40 PM

wow no trace of that troll,if only we could do that to evil.lol

Posted by: storagemanager at May 13, 2006 11:40 PM

Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali to AJC: "I Used to Hate You"

Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the rest of us often hear about "the Jew" that is the root of all the problems in the world-including 911, Cartoon Kristallnacht, etc. We've got to find this guy.

These people are out looking for him..

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.coranix.com/biblio/mystemps/hitler_mufti.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.coranix.com/biblio/mystemps.htm&h=332&w=407&sz=10&tbnid=lACqNeLE8hUt5M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=121&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhitler,%2Bburka%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

Posted by: Frank at May 13, 2006 11:54 PM

"Ayaan, come to America. For all its faults, it may be civilization's last redoubt."

Well, Robert I'm losing confidence everyday. If you think this administration with this dhimmi Department of State would give her asylum, I have this cast iron tower in Paris that's for sale.

Posted by: Pelayo at May 14, 2006 12:12 AM

Here's how Hirsi Ali can solve the problem once and for all. Submit another asylum application to the Netherlands now. Are they going to deport her back to Somalia to meet certain death?

Posted by: markjames at May 14, 2006 12:17 AM

This is devastating news and yet there are muslim criminals thwarting attempts to deport them, that massouai rat is going to waste and abuse legal resourses, and all the time we hear of these islamic clerics spreading their vile stench of hate for the countries they reside in. The dutch pastries are out with the rubbish!

Posted by: eloivsdiablo at May 14, 2006 12:22 AM

Can we trade Hirsi Ali for that Taliban spokesman our govt stupidly let in to go to Yale?

Posted by: Abby at May 14, 2006 12:43 AM

Robert,

Thanks so much for the poster cleanup. :)

Posted by: Abby at May 14, 2006 12:44 AM

Commentary at the above link on Ali's talk at Harvard claims that the audience was 'politely hostile'.

If this is true, it is an absolutely horrific indictment of supposed academic standards of tolerance, respect, and rights of freedom of expression at Harvard.

Any speaker who gives a talk in good faith and respects the fundamental values of the university (for instance, does not speak to incite violence or attack basic freedoms of others), whose life is endangered by groups motivatived by an ideology that denies the fundamental principles of academic discourse, should be first and foremost warmly embraced and welcomed by the audience, no matter what the audience thinks about the content of the speech.

To show 'polite hostility' to such a person is an expression of tacit acceptance of the status quo, the aggression against the speaker; the first obligation of the audience is publicly and forcefully denounce the threats against the speaker and to project a sense of protection and safety. 'Polite hostility' implies that audience opinions about error of the speakers views are more important the threat of death that hangs over her head. It is tantamount to saying that the speaker deserves aggression, and with no forceful denunciation of the threat of death that dominates the context of the speech, without a warm, protective welcome, the audience should question whether or not they are guilty of becoming participants in the violence that endangers the very possibility of the speech.

If polite hostility was the overall reception of the audience at Harvard, if Ali was not warmly welcomed and made to feel safe, issues of freedom of expression on campus should be raised at Harvard.

Posted by: JTF at May 14, 2006 1:20 AM

My God. We're getting a glimps of the totalitarian future.

Posted by: Cornelius at May 14, 2006 1:27 AM

Cornelius,

You are unfortunately correct. It is disgusting.

Exactly what positive purpose does Ms. Verdonk expect to achieve, for her country, by doing this? I hope all Dutch citizens clearly think through the future upshot and downshot for the Netherlands, europe and the planet, and vote accordingly in the next elections.

Posted by: del at May 14, 2006 1:59 AM

biorabbi

She isn't a Muslim. That's what makes them so much better.

Don't the Dutch have real Muslim problems to worry about? Like Mohammed Boyeri? The Spanish Inquisition once sentenced the entire Dutch population to death because of their becoming Protestant; looks like the Muslims are finally getting ready to enforce that 16th century Spanish Inquisition edict will be enforced by the Muslims.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 14, 2006 2:29 AM

I always got the impresson that Rita Verdonk was one of the ones who "get it" about the menace(hijabs, handshaking etc). If she is sucumbing to "pressure" then that in itself is a separate sadness and cause for grave concern.

This is the political equivalent of dredging up pinup shots from the hungry years of an established actor or actress, only the consequences are more dangerous and potentially damaging.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 14, 2006 3:57 AM

Europe is going down the sewers. All of it.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 14, 2006 4:19 AM

Uhm, sorry, but it's just that in the Netherlands we have things called "laws" for which everyone is equal. On this issue I'm for upholding the law. If she lied and got a permit to stay on the basis of these lies, then it's good to look at it again.

I'm sure she won't be deported. It will be easily shown that her life is in danger when she gets deported anywhere outside the Western world. On the basis of that fact, she will probably get to keep her permit.

Personally, I would like to see a law implemented that an apostate of any religion gets a permit to stay. Denouncing Islam will automatically get you a permit, protection and the advice to edutate yourself further and above all to spread the word!

Oh and please make educated, self-critical, hard-working babies! :)

Posted by: mr_atheist at May 14, 2006 5:10 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Mrs. Ali is indeed a brave woman. She has done very well on her own to build a career for herself & defined a path she wants to take.

That she has bravery credentials is beyond doubt, that she is smart is also beyond doubt and she has my respect.

That she MUST have truthful credentials is also be beyond doubt in my mind. I would encourage Mrs. Ali to tell the truth about her background & put it to bed....& if that means that she has to be in the US ...then so be it.

At least by telling the truth...she can move on. I meam if a muslim is telling lies to get asylum.....you peoples would be up in arms...shouting from every rooftop...deport him/her....why the distinction here....lets hear the truth.

After that she can settle down... & yes I believe that she must not be sent back to Sudan.

What is interesting is that it is not muslims who are tring to "send her back" but the infedel. I know that Mr. Spencer would like to use the word Dhimmis...but they don't pay Jizya....so they are infedel.

I too have see Ahmadi treated with complete disdain in Pak, so I can understand to an extent, Mrs. Ali, I wish you the very best of luck...I don't want you hounded out...I think you are a superwoman....just tell the truth & settle it.

Posted by: Naseem at May 14, 2006 5:13 AM

She simply will not, nor could not be deported. Even if she was not a "legitimate" refugee then, she certainly is now.

The Netherlands is a signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention, the ECHR, the ICCPR and the Convention Against Torture. The Conventions prohibit refoulment of persons to countries where they are likely to be subject to any danger. The House of Lords and the Europpean Court of Human Rights have affirmed this many times.

She could not be deported. It would NEVER happen.

Based upon her current circumstances, even if she did procure her initial status illegally, would have to be granted asylum as her personal circumstances have changed. The fact that she has a well founded fear of persecution/death in her former homeland, and any other Muslim country (and Western countries), guarantees this status, unless she is prima facie excludable (ie a war criminal or terrorist). Which we all know she is not.

I pray for her protection and safety.

TH

Posted by: Haidon at May 14, 2006 5:45 AM

The social-democrats are behind this, remember that. They fear Hirsi Ali, they fear Verdonk and they are doing everything possible to damage them both. Verdonk is running for leadership of her (liberal) party and they're skyrocketing in the polls at the expense of the social-democrats who are sure to win next year's election. Hirsi Ali and Verdonk are pawns in a game of chess. They're being taken out by the social-democrats and their friends in the media. It's a power struggle. If Ayaan has to go than so should all the other asylum seekers that haven't been totally honest. Anyway, all of this was very old news. Ayaan confessed to it all years ago, she even wrote about it in her own books. This is a smear campaign and that's all it is. It's laughable to think that these leftists are seriously worried about asylum seekers lying to the immigration service. As one leftist lawyer put it last week, Ayaan should never have fessed up as they always advice asylum seekers to lie about what really motivates them to come to the Netherlands.

Posted by: Leveller at May 14, 2006 6:03 AM

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a brave and strong woman, and she speaks the truth about Islam.

Of course the Dutch dhimmis and Islamists don't want her. They don't like the truth.

Europe will roll out the red carpet for terrorists intent on destroying it. But for a lady like Ms. Ali, well, she's upsetting some of the terrorists, so maybe that's why some of the Europeans would rather be blown up with bombs, than be bombarded with the truth - which seems to hurt them even more than explosive devices.

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts at May 14, 2006 6:07 AM

I was gobsmacked when I heard the plans of revoking Ayaan's citizenship and the possibility of her deportation. It's absurd and surreal, considering what she has achieved and continues to contribute to those who are suffering under the Islamic dogma. Frankly, I couldn't care less how Ayaan made it to Holland, I have seen what she can do and what she means to people, and that's worth gold.

Jan.

Posted by: Jan Vink at May 14, 2006 6:10 AM

Formally speaking the Dutch Government would be in the right, but it would be naive in the extreme to conclude that they are at all concerned by formal considerations in this case.

This is a cynical attempt to appease Muslim opinion in the Netherlands. And it wouldn't work anyway: that is an opinion that fundamentally will not appeased by any concessions.

Posted by: Yojimbo at May 14, 2006 6:15 AM

"...My God. We're getting a glimps of the totalitarian future..."

Posted by: Cornelius

Corni, remember when you first posted here arguing for arguments sake?

So does that mean that Muhammedansim finally bit you in the ass?

Good on you, mate!

For Ayan Ali Hirsi I say this: If the Netherworld is becoming too oppressive and you feel that the US is not necessarily the ONLY place to be to fight the jihad, please consider Australia. We need you here, baby! I'll do whatever it takes to get you settled here, no BS, and I am connected, believe me.

Sheik yer'mami will take care of you, no worries and no repayment necessary. I'll do it for the cause, never mind whatever the cost....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 14, 2006 6:19 AM

If they have to deport her for lying then they will have to do the same for several hundred thousand Muslim immigrants in Holland.

Posted by: johndoe at May 14, 2006 7:00 AM

...Just tell the truth & settle it.

So far, the truth has Ms. Ali living in fear for her life and being threatened with deportation to almost certain imprisonment and death. The truth causes us to use aliases to prevent Muslims coming for us.

Truth has a way of shining a light on those areas we would rather not confront, both in ourselves and others.

In the case of Islam, only a certain type of truth is acceptable. The old-fashioned plain unvarnished truth is anathema to the cause. With Islam, real truth raises many, many more questions than it answers.

Posted by: cactus at May 14, 2006 8:00 AM

I think our country, The Netherlands, is way too small for Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Petty frustrated journalists, forever trying to put her down, muslims calling her a "stitched up" whore, muslims little ego's all inflated because finally oh finally they think they have a real argument, Dutch people who call her "hateful" .... every day this woman, braver than any politician I have seen in this country, has to defend herself against such hate and at best mediocrity.
Ah, I am so fed up.

Posted by: Dutchwoman at May 14, 2006 8:05 AM

Ducthwoman the Netherlands might seem too small for
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, its because her message is too big for most to hear. you have the muslim horde and the appeasers in Europe, but they are in the minority right now. this minority is very loud, and can scare some people, but you need to talk to your friends, relatives, co-workers if possible, and opinions do change when others hear the silent majority.

Posted by: Lulu at May 14, 2006 8:33 AM

Johndoe,

Exactly.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at May 14, 2006 9:04 AM

I do Lulu, and I will continue doing so. We all must.

Posted by: Dutchwoman at May 14, 2006 10:31 AM

Will they also order Theo Van Gogh exhumed and deported to another country (maybe they could rebury him next to Jonathan Swift?) since he stirred up so much trouble with the peaceful Muslims living in the Netherlands?

Hirsi Ali is welcome in the U.S. should the Dutch totally forget that we, and the rest of the allies- including many valient Canadians, Poles, Aussies and Free Hollanders in exile, kept them from becoming a province of Nazi Deutscheland.

(Maybe they just don't want to have to keep paying her bodyguard fees, being a very frugal people?)

The tiny stage of Holland may be too cramped for her global message.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 14, 2006 10:57 AM

"opinions do change when others hear the silent majority"

where is this silent majority? if they don't speak out, they do not exist. whether they are European or Muslim is immaterial. until they speak out, their opinions have no effect on society.

I like Hirsi Ali, and would welcome her in the US. She has said she is a Muslim, and her words express new and valuable understandings of Allah.

Posted by: jehana at May 14, 2006 11:02 AM

If worse comes to worse, come to America anyways Ms. Ali. At least we have folks who do stand up for freedom. God Bless her for standing up for what is right.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 14, 2006 12:21 PM

"She has said she is a Muslim, and her words express new and valuable understandings of Allah."
-- from a posting above

Asked point-blank whether she still considered herself a Muslim, Hirsi Ali said she was an atheist. She noted her filial ties, cultural ties, ties of memory, to a world that remains familiar to her, but this hardly makes her a "Muslim" and to claim her as such is misleading. She does not wave her apostasy about -- why should she? -- but to claim her as a Muslim is false. She was born, through no fault of her own, into Islam. Out of curiosity and intelligence, she has discovered that Islam is unsatisfactory. She realizes, however, that there are many who cannot make the same kind of mental break as she did, and she is directing her main efforts to ending the collectivist mentality by which Muslim women living in Holland, and elsewhere in Western Europe, are consigned to being ruled by "Muslim" customs, manners, laws. She is interested in making sure that Western governments enforce the rights guaranteeed to individuals in the Western world, instead of exhibiting some kind of misplaced deference to Islam and its collectivist, totalitarian nature. In this her main allies are those non-Muslim Dutch who are grateful for their own Western legacy (and not apologetic or embarrassed or ignorant of that legacy), and those who, like her born into Islam but now living in the West, have used that freedom to , Islam and its works and days.

Posted by: Hugh at May 14, 2006 12:27 PM

The West is sending a message including the home of the free, America, that if are an immigrant you need to shut the hell up about Islam and toe the Dhimmi line. This message was delivered to me “loud and clear” along with all the other non-Muslim Arabic speakers supporting the so called war on terror, rightly coined by Mr. Fitzgerald, tarbaby Iraq.

To be treated with utter contempt, to be subjected to an atmosphere of hostility, to see infidel women including soldiers and civilians harassed by Muslim who suffer no ill effects for it, to discover that you live in an upside-down world were the enemy runs the show is babied by all inside the “secure” intelligence compounds that are supposedly in the forefront of the war effort, is to despair the despair of those entering the gates of hell in the divine comedy reenacted as an American farce.

Posted by: have_mercy at May 14, 2006 1:04 PM

Out of the Devil’s mouth: As bin Laden pointed that out, Westerners are not innocent bystanders because they elect their Governments and support them by paying taxes… He is absolutely right though he did not mean it as such… As a free people, we are all accountable for our Governments’ policies, actions, and inactions. The so called people of the West have Dhimmi governments that reflect either their Dhimmi inclinations or their lack of civic responsibility and utter obliviousness.

Posted by: have_mercy at May 14, 2006 1:17 PM

It is easy for us, mostly safely in the US, posting on Jihad Watch under nicknames to speak the truth, but for her to do so is another mater; she puts her money, her life where her mouth is.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten, biorabbi, that the other person in the above photo ain't exactly living on the safe either.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at May 14, 2006 2:02 PM

She said a number of different things about her religious beliefs in her recent talk at Harvard, Hugh.

Including calling herself a Muslim, and talking about her relationship with God.

Posted by: jehana at May 14, 2006 3:12 PM

'The so called people of the West have Dhimmi governments that reflect either their Dhimmi inclinations or their lack of civic responsibility and utter obliviousness.'

Mostly oblivious I think. It makes me sick.

Posted by: beth at May 14, 2006 3:59 PM

"I'm sure you haven't forgotten, biorabbi, that the other person in the above photo ain't exactly living on the safe either."-APF

Yes. It's easy to forget how dangerous it is for the folks in the above Guts Family Photo to speak the truth on the basis of reason and facts and not appeal to emotion or submit to emotion on the Jihad issue. It takes guts.

Posted by: Frank at May 14, 2006 4:58 PM

I know that when Hirsi Ali speaks to large audiences she sometimes may, in the circumstances and for reasons that can easily be discerned, explain that she was a Muslim and that -- in a sense -- she is still a "Muslim" but when one talks to her one discovers that she unambiguously calls herself an atheist, does not accept the Qur'an as the uncreated word of God, and does not regard the Sunna as a guide, nor Muhammad as uswa hasana. Does that make her a "Muslim" in any but the "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim sense?

I don't think so.

Posted by: Hugh at May 14, 2006 8:36 PM

Look ar Robert's face! Obviously, a Jooooo! Why, he must have played Mottel the Tailor in _FIddler on the Roof_!

Crude attempts at anti-Jihadi sarcasm aside, thanks for the service of exposing the Islamofascist disease.

Posted by: Kepha at May 14, 2006 10:03 PM

Last time I looked in the dictionary I did not see that unambigious atheists felt the need to have struggles or conversations with God. Would you then accuse her of "practicing taquiyya" when she is doing outreach? Her speeches would suggest that she may be closer to being an Islamic Deist than a traditional Muslim or Atheist. Why else would she talk about having a mission to reform Islam, and then claim "only Muslims can reform Islam"?

In any case, I cannot know her heart and I do not claim to have Deep Insights into the Thoughts and Feelings of Others.

All I know is that Hirsi Ali speaks in terms that are recognizable to Muslims, that she claims she is Muslim from time to time, and that her mindset and active orientation towards Islamic reform appears to fit within the wider context of Islamic struggle, which you know oh-so-affectionately as "jihad".

Posted by: jehana at May 15, 2006 12:56 AM

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the subject of a vicious left wing media-attack. Leon de Winter reported the following on his blog The Free West:

___

Since she first entered the political scene, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been very frank about her life. In countless interviews she gave the facts of her life: she was born in a Muslim family in Somalia, which meant that she had to undergo female circumcision, as a child she fled that country with her parents when one of the many civil wars started, later she fled an arranged marriage and found refuge in Holland after lying that she came directly from Somalia instead from Kenya and after changing her name from Hirsi Magan to Hirsi Ali and changing her birth date.

Last Thursday, VARA, a Dutch public tv-broadcaster closely linked to the social-democratic party PVDA, aired a a program called ‘Saint Ayaan’.

In this program, Ayaan was accused of having trying to hide the truth about her past.

The following was revealed: she was born in a Muslim family in Somalia but as a child she left that country when the civil war started, later she fled an arranged marriage and found refuge in Holland after lying that she came directly from Somalia instead from Kenya and after changing her name form Hirsi Magan to Hirsi Ali and changing her birth date.

What was revealed?

Nothing was revealed, nothing secret, no unknown facts, that Ayaan had not revealed herself when she entered Dutch politics.

Nevertheless, a curious mob of social-democrats and rightists extremists has gathered now looking for the end of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Why? They say because she lied when asking for permission to stay in the country in 1992.

In Holland’s most popular late night talkshow, BvD, Ayaan said on 9.11.2002 after she was asked how she entered Holland:

‘I arrived in ’92 and at that time the whole world came [to Holland]. There were civil wars all over the place. The Balkan, Sierra Leone, Somalia. It was favorable to come from Somalia. I don’t know if I got a refugee status because of my story. I did not report I arrived from Kenya. I told them that I came from Somalia.’

Question: So you needed to lie in order to get a refugee status?

Ayaan: ‘Absolutely! But I don’t know if I got it based upon the lie. Presently, people lie as well and they don’t hand out permissions to stay, but at the time it was an easier period to give out permissions.’

Again: this was in Holland’s most popular talkshow. We all knew about this 'lie' for four years now. She has been mentioning this herself many, many times.

Now, the VARA television revealed hat Ayaan lied in 1992 when she asked to stay in Holland. And VARA pretends that she tried to hide this lie. Which is a lie itself.

Something unbelievable is unfolding in Holland in the last 48 hours: despite the fact that the so-called ‘revelations’ VARA aired are widely available on the internet for years – just Google the fascinating New York Times Magazine piece written by Christopher Caldwell – Ayaan-hating extremists from the left to the right have bonded and are now trying to hang her in public.

A part of the public loves it. It is always great to see a prominent person being hanged. She was admired by many, but at the same time people were afraid that Ayaan’s ideas were provoking the Islamists.

Ayaan was considered a firebrand, and these ‘revelations’ are now being used by the multiculturalists and politicians with all kinds of objectives (for instance: to hurt the liberal party that is now in a huge upswing in the polls) in order to silence her, hurt her reputation, kill her character.

They seem to be succeeding. After Ayaan was ordered two weeks ago by a court order to leave her apartment within four months after her neighbors took her to court complaining that her presence was endangering their lives – the court order turned her into an official pariah – ‘mysteries’ in her past, about which she has been totally open and honest, are now being ‘revealed’ in order to destruct her reputation.

During World War II, eighty percent of Dutch Jews were deported to the camps and killed. They were often delivered to the Nazi’s by the Dutch themselves. They wanted to protect themselves and hoped that collaboration would make them safe.

The Dutch now desperately want to hang Ayaan in the hope to restore the multicultural dream. VARA created an atmosphere in which so-called ‘revelations’ mystify and falsify Ayaan’s past and present.

We are now witnessing in Holland the public execution of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

___

Source: www.welt.de/z/plog/blog.php/the_free_west/the_free_wests_weblog/2006/05/13/the_public_execution_of_ayaan_hirsi_ali

Posted by: DutchFreethinker at May 15, 2006 9:30 AM

The attack on Hirsi Ali is a very smart one...
First minister of immigration, Rita Verdonk, is Forced to an impossible possition. She actually cannot just grand Hirsi Ali a permit to stay, because she than ignores the law and cannot fullfill here strong immigrationpolicy.
But actually she cannot force Hirsi Ali out of the country, because Hirsi Ali has a major political and social position and is besides that a member of the same party.

So, now Verdonk is forced to make her choice between the 2 worse things, both will do no good to her possition.

What she should do, I think, withdraw the citizenship away from Hirsi Ali, follow the rules and give her a new pasport, with the right name, etc. and doing so follow the law and subsequently giving Hirsi Ali the honor she deserves (being a very respected member of the Dutch society).

But I am affraid in Holland, one (left winged groupes and maybe even our intelligence services) is very busy removing dissident elements from society, either by letting them be killed or by use of political constructions. Many Dutch politicians do not want criticism on islam and multi cultural society, cause they feel this might drive groups apart.

In early days, before Pim Fortuyn arrived at the political stage, one could be prosecuted for having straight forward criticism on islam or the multicultural society or even for saying the Netherlands are full. Pim Fortuyn broke through this barier and not very modest and now they want to re-establish the silince they had before.

Very clever game, bit dirty though.

Posted by: undefined at May 19, 2006 7:26 AM