Love the sick logic.

Remember Casablanca?

"He's dead?"

"Yes. We're filling out the report now. We haven't decided if he commited suicide or was shot trying to escape."

WC

Posted by: Thomas Paine at May 15, 2006 1:46 PM

Robert said

Mr. Belien, I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Ayaan: come to America. I know you have had disagreements with her in the past, but I refuse to side with either one of you against the other: I am ready to work with anyone to resist the jihad, and we'll sort out our differences later.

Very wise words. It is time to close ranks, protect ourselves, and leave the Iraqis and Afghans to choose their own destiny. If the "vast majority of moderates" decide that democracy and freedom and what they want, so be it. All petty differences between ourselves, Democrats, Republicans, pro-choice/anti-abortion, gays, straights, men, women, need to be set aside. Whatever Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Paul Belien disagree on, it is truly insignificant at the moment. There is only one distinction that matters right now: Muslim (and their apologist enablers), and infidels.

Quoth Hugh, cut the crap.

Posted by: special_guest at May 15, 2006 1:51 PM

Typo, that should be "if ... democracy and freedom are what they want".

And just so nobody misunderstands, "cut the crap" is directed at the Administration and all others out on a mission to save the Muslim world from itself, whatever the cost to us. It is not directed at Robert, Ayaan, or Paul Belien.

Posted by: special_guest at May 15, 2006 1:57 PM

you are either for us or against us......if only those were not just pretty words with no backbone...john wayne we need you.

Posted by: storagemanager at May 15, 2006 2:05 PM

Robert wrote: "Mr. Belien, I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Ayaan: come to America. I know you have had disagreements with her in the past, but I refuse to side with either one of you against the other: I am ready to work with anyone to resist the jihad, and we'll sort out our differences later. Come to the United States, and may the darkness that is so rapidly descending over Europe become for America an occasion for a rebirth of light, truth, and clarity, so that we can fight on with renewed energy against the jihadists who would destroy our civilization."

Robert, I'm a European and I'm not just going to run away. I have been reading the Brussels Journal for some time now and it's a great place to get critical information about the islamic infiltration of Europe. To have him leave Europe would be a real loss. If you think that all europeans are just some sort of yellow cowards you are darn wrong. Most europeans are not afraid of islam, they just don't know anything about it, peopel are too busy with their everyday life to look deep into the true nature of that religion. But if you think Europe is lost, you are wrong, very wrong. Peopel can be activated to go against islam and I think it's more easy than many peopel think, it's a matter of choosing an intelligent way to enlighten them. And it will happen in the years to come.

Posted by: seville844 at May 15, 2006 2:07 PM

I'm an Islam-critic and I live in the EU. Maybe I should already consider my next move...

Is there any need for a motivated, young electrical engineer with expertise in biometrics, image processing and atrificial intelligence in the US? :P

Posted by: mr_atheist at May 15, 2006 2:11 PM

According to the Sun, a coded message is contained in the closing section of the eight-page letter. While the rest of the message had been translated into English, the salutation in had not. It reads "Vasalam Ala Man Ataba'al hoda" and means "Peace only unto those who follow the true path."

Says the paper:

"It is a phrase with historical significance in Islam, for, according to Islamic tradition, in year six of the Hejira - the late 620s - the prophet Mohammad sent letters to the Byzantine emperor and the Sassanid emperor telling them to convert to the true faith of Islam or be conquered. The letters included the same phrase that President Ahmadinejad used to conclude his letter to Mr. Bush."

Concluded the Sun:

"For Mohammad, the letters were a prelude to a Muslim offensive, a war launched for the purpose of imposing Islamic rule over infidels."

Two days earlier, the CBN network's "700 Club" ran a special feature based on information just brought back from Iran by investigative reporter George Thomas

Posted by: storagemanager at May 15, 2006 2:16 PM

Well, I have difficulty mustering the devotion to attend services once per week. Five times a day is not going to happen.

This is going to get ugly.

Posted by: Havoc at May 15, 2006 2:17 PM

http://www.jnewswire.com/article/902

Posted by: storagemanager at May 15, 2006 2:18 PM

Can't we at least we deport one Islamic illegal alien from the U.S. for every new, legal, anti-jihadist immigrant we accept?

Let's make Europe's loss our double gain.

(Hell, the EU can even accept those whom we throw out as favored 'asylum-seekers', in their knee-jerk anti-Americanism, if it'll make them feel superior.)

"Quantum mutatus ab illo!"

("How much he has changed from what he was!")

Is Paris Burning?

Is Brussels?

Amsterdam?

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 15, 2006 2:18 PM

According to Thomas:

"Ahmadinejad believes that he has been chosen – he has a divine mission – to usher in the 12th Imam – the Mahdi.

"He believes that in order for this Mahdi to return … the entire world should be filled with chaos; there should be a battle between good and evil – in his mind between the east and the west."

It was into this situation of universal chaos that the Mahdi would come to establish peace and justice in the earth.

Thomas said rumors in Iran were that Ahmadinejad has ordered the city of Tehran to prepare a route for the Mahdi to take upon his return.

"We were at this parade, and in all his statements he tells his people: 'Prepare in your hearts for the return of the Mahdi...' Speaking to his troops he actually said: 'You are the men who have been commissioned to usher in the return of the Mahdi.'"

(my only concern today)

Posted by: storagemanager at May 15, 2006 2:20 PM

Just wondering .. will Belien and Hirsi have to line up behind those 12 million illegal Mexican immigrants?

Posted by: JanuaryMan at May 15, 2006 2:21 PM

mr_atheist wrote: "I'm an Islam-critic and I live in the EU. Maybe I should already consider my next move..."

If you just flee Europe you are actually giving the islamists a helping hand. Kudos.

Posted by: seville844 at May 15, 2006 2:40 PM

Just wondering .. will Belien and Hirsi have to line up behind those 12 million illegal Mexican immigrants?

Posted by: JanuaryMan

thanks for askin that,i wanted to but didnt want people to jump my a**,thinkin i was against them

Posted by: patriot4 at May 15, 2006 2:51 PM

I don't know how I had the good luck to be born in the U.S. Can you imagine living in Europe now? What a total hell hole, filled with spineless, hateful, cowardly people.

I will miss Europe. I've been there many times and definitely love what I've seen (buildings, food, art).

But the people! What snivling, craven, idiots.

But what keeps people like Bruce Bawer and the other brave souls there? Read Shalom Lappin's article in ENGAGE on British anti-Semitism.

As someone said a few years ago, the Europeans are finally getting the Semites they deserve.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 15, 2006 2:58 PM

Seymour Paine wrote: "I don't know how I had the good luck to be born in the U.S. Can you imagine living in Europe now? What a total hell hole, filled with spineless, hateful, cowardly people."

Wow! You certainly sound like a person with lots of hate in your soul. I think I must consider myself lucky to have been born somewhere else than the US, some of you guys sound soooo brainwashed when you talk about the blessings of the US, it's like listening to a muslim babbeling on about how paradise is like. You guys are bizarre sometimes.

So all americans are brave, loving and heroic are they? Yeah and pigs can fly.

"I will miss Europe. I've been there many times and definitely love what I've seen (buildings, food, art)."

Yes, all the dead things are nice for a yankee, they are items that can be studied, bought and sold, which fits well into the greedy, materialistic mindset they have. But humans... Yikes! Some of them are actually critical of the US. They must be no good.

"But the people! What snivling, craven, idiots."

Yes, 400 million european are all very stupid and you sound like the fountain of wisdom.

"As someone said a few years ago, the Europeans are finally getting the Semites they deserve."

We live in a globalized world so peopel are coming to Europe from all over the world, some arabs yes, but also a lot of other peopel. You make it sound like it's simple but actually it's very complicated with many different potential outcomes.

Posted by: seville844 at May 15, 2006 3:23 PM

Meanwhile, in Iraq, the Americans are devoting all their efforts to creating a viable nation-state that will be a model -- a model of something that somehow, for some reason, will in some way lessen the threat of the Jihad throughout the world, including those instruments of it, demographic conquest and Da'wa, that have already helped to weaken the Atlantic aliance, to confuse and demoralize the West, when it is precisely in Iraq that all the elements exist, handed to us on a platter, to weaken and divide and demoralize the camp of Islam.

But Bush and Rice and Cheney can't do it. They can't change course. They can't show any hint that they were wrong -- wrong in their "transformative" diplomacy, wrong in their belief that Americans would be greated with unfeigned and permanent gratitude, wrong in their dismissal of the deep resentment of Shi'a for Sunni Arabs, of Sunni rage at losing power, and of the unswervable Kurdish desire never again to be subject to Arab supremacists. They were wrong about how much it would cost, wrong about how much more effective, therefore, the same sums already spent or committed -- now close to $400 billion -- would have been much better spent on energy conservation and on nuclear, solar, and wind energy projects. And above all, they are wrong about the sources, and the scope, and the permanence of the menace of Jihad -- and because of that, they cannot conceivably see why tarbaby Iraq is the fiasco, getting worse by the day, that it is.

Nothing will happen to make the Shi'a ever give back the power they now possess. Nothing will make the Sunni Arabs reconcile themselves to this loss of power, especially since they live, like most Arab Muslims, in a twilight world of conspiracy, rumor, and alternative reality, and will continue to believe that they constitue 42% of the population in Iraq. Nothing will make the Kurds give up their desire to be independent. Whatever al-Maliki does or does not do, whether he forms a government or not by May 22 (the last day on which such a government is supposed to be formed, more than five months after that election of Dec. 15), will not change this. And meanwhile the American soldiers risking their lives to do the impossible -- to persaude and then train Sunni Arabs and Shi'a Arabs and Kurds to fight together in the same units, or work in the same police departments -- will merely cost American lives when someone's back is turned.

An opportunity lost. "While Europe Slept" is the title of Bruce Bawer's just-published description of the miscomprehension and appeasement in Europe. "While America Flailed About" describes the inability to change course, to get out of Iraq, to begin to address all the other instruments of Jihad, and to husband rather than squander, men, money, materiel, the morale of the military and civilians alike, that are preparing the public to give up when it has hardly begun, to comprehend Jihad.

Posted by: Hugh at May 15, 2006 3:30 PM

M. Belien - Don't come here. Stand your ground and fight back.

Posted by: MP at May 15, 2006 3:31 PM

I would ask the Americans who contribute to the comments here at Jihad/Dhimmi Watch --

How many Americans do you know who share the views we Jihad-Watchers have?

How many Americans have you seen on TV, heard on radio, or read in print who share the views we Jihad-Watchers have?

I bet you will not be able to come up with more than a dozen, maybe two dozen at best.

(Vague Internet polls showing that over 70% or whatever of Americans don't "look favorably" on Islam is worthless: what does "not looking favorably" mean in concrete terms? Do they just have a vague feeling without any definite knowledge, without any definite basis for a fundamental condemnation of Islam itself?
Furthermore, the Internet is still a minority of people out there, and a somewhat skewed one at that.)

Our own President, his Sec. of State, his Sec. of Defense -- all believe the "vast majority of Muslims are moderates" and that Islam is a religion of peace. Our most conservative and most influential and dominant radio pundits, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, won't give Robert Spencer or Hirsi Ali or Muslim apostates the time of day.

Let's not trumpet the USA over Europe until we start showing numbers.

Posted by: Television at May 15, 2006 3:38 PM

Hi Seville844- How many of the "different potential outcomes" you envision are good outcomes for what I can only describe as "western civilization"? People who refuse to defend themselves and their beliefs ARE, in my simplistic view, sniveling, craven idiots. Don't worry, just sit back, and let the politicians and intellectuals who are driving your bus do their thing. Where will you be in decade? in two?

Posted by: MP at May 15, 2006 3:44 PM

Please stop talking as though the Netherlands and their feeble imitators in Belgium (who also have introduced the murder of the old and sick, and similar instances of enlightenment) are typical of Europe at large. They are a plague spot, but they are not. And even in Belgium, they are living on borrowed time. The famously corrupt political class of this country, which actually beats Italy for sheer thievery, is living in terror of the rise of the nationalist Vlaams Blok (now Vlaams Belang). This is the first real opposition party to arise in Belgium in generations, and the political bosses - who have been known to murder each other over such things as military helicopter contracts - simply cannot handle it. They have already once managed to get the courts to order Vlaams Blok to dissolve, only to have it re-form with a new name - for you cannot destroy a party supported a fifth of the voters by an administrative act, and this only shows just how far the pretended-democratic leadership of Belgium had drifted from any understanding of democracy. The assault on Belien is part of the assault on anyone who is outside the magic circle. It may succeed in the short run, but it will do nothing more than speed up the delegitimation of the so-called Socialists and Christian Democrats, parties that long since have ceased to mean anything except a ferociously-fought-for share of snouts in the trough.

Posted by: Paolo at May 15, 2006 3:46 PM

"This is unconscionably irresponsible and dastardly on the part of Verhofstadt and those who have echoed his charges."

This race nonsense is a bore. Two of the three victims of this wack-job were Caucasian. Somebody should advise Verhofstadt that race has nothing to do with skin color. (BTW, there is no "white race"-only light skinned Caucasians-and then there are darker skinned Caucasians, etc.)

The issue here is not the issue. This mult-cultural-race-card-game is played by mostly privileged white leftists who seek to divide people in order to set themselves up as "spokespersons" for the varied peoples divided by their "visual diversity" game. Verhofstadt and those who have echoed his charges do so mainly for power and control-though they pretend that they are motivated by disinterested principle.

The issues in the future are going to be primarily between those who wish to control people's thoughts and behavior and those who advocate the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions. The coming struggle is rooted in the communications revolution of the past 30 years and is about individual freedom and freedom of conscience, or the control of the individual person through ideology and technology in the future. Orwell and Huxley saw this conflict coming some time ago. Islam is one part of the totalitarian matrix. The problem is beyond race.

Posted by: Frank at May 15, 2006 4:06 PM

Would it be possible for some of the anti-European, foaming at the mouth Neanderthals, to engage their brain before posting?

There are many people in Europe who are extremely concerned about the threat of Islam and are not afraid to voice their opinion. Some have been murdered for their efforts. Others are living under police protection. And is George Bush really any more clued up than our dimwitted leaders in Europe?

Fortunately, most people realise the USA and Europe should be allies against the common threat and are not so stupid as some of the point scorers have been on this thread.

Posted by: Celsius at May 15, 2006 4:17 PM

There is some hope for Europe, since the German chancellor Angela Merkel seems to be waking up.

Recently, Finnish Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen (notorious for his apology concerning the Mohammad cartoons) and Merkel disagreed about EU expansion.

Merkel is in favor of defining the EU borders beforehand. Dhimmi-Vanhanen, on the other hand, wanted that any country that fulfilling the membership criteria would be able to join EU.

This disagreement is basically doublespeak about the membership of Turkey in EU, which according to my interpretation of Merkel's statement means that Germany is against Turkey's membership.

Since Germany is a lot bigger country, their opinion counts for more. Dhimmi-Vanhanen may be excused for his ignorance on islam, because Finnish muslim population is so small and Vanhanen's party comrade Olli Rehn is the EU commissioner responsible for EU enlargement and negotiations with Turkey as well.

Germans also seem to be waking up on the low birthrate they have, since there has been public discussion about incentives for families. If the economically most important EU country wakes up, there is hope. But it may still be too late.

Posted by: Saatanan Islam at May 15, 2006 4:26 PM

Well, Seville844, all I know is that if my grandparents hadn't fled Europe, they'd likely be dead. The town my father's parents came from no longer exists; neither does the place my mother's mother came from (Eastern Poland). Between WWI and WWII, Europe was either a hell hole in the 20th Cent or recovering from hell (and of course, for the balance of that century, until 1991, Eastern Europe was under Communist domination).

I recall when I worked for a large software company in the mid-1980s they sent me to Madrid. I was in their office and a couple of people from that office offered to show me some of Madrid. They took me to a beautiful, wealthy residential area, reminded me of Beverly Hills and one of them remarked that he would like to kill every one who lived there. The other workers just sort of nodded in agreement. They area was inhabited by people who were in Franco's regime.

The reason we are so goddamn lucky in the U.S. (apart from our sad history with Indians and slavery) is that we don't have that kind of horror going on here. As bad as Bush is (and I despise him hugely), he's nothing compared to the evil that ruled over Europe in the last 100 years.

I've wondered time and again why Europe has given rise to such horror and why they are so spineless these days. I don't know; they's no easy answer, is there? Spain lets a flood of jihadists in; ditto Britain; Holland; Norway; Sweden; France is sinking. Europeans have such hatred for their remaining Jews (and why they don't leave beats me; people are fools, I guess), and absolutely no sense of shame for their past actions, that they encourage the rampant anti-Semitism that currently grips Europe and in some cases makes common cause with Islamic fundamentalists (like Ken Livingston).

Maybe someday the U.S. will have similar problems as the Europeans do, but that's a long, long way off, if ever. Mexicans, the biggest "foreign" group here, assimilates at an enormous rate (the Economist did a study about this a few years ago). Most groups do. By and large, we get along here. If I wanted to, I could walk down most anywhere with a Jewish star of david on my neck. Could I do that anywhere in Europe?

Right after 9/11, in my neighborhood in mid-town Manhattan, it was probably about 9/15 or 9/16, I was walking up 8th Ave around 55th Street. A moslem cab driver had gotten out of his cab, put a rug down, to pray. Oddly, I was probably the only person to notice and I was mainly curious to see what would happen. Nothing.

Not that there aren't big hatreds here; people (Moslems apart) are similar. But the U.S. (and Canada) are big places and give eachother space.

The Europeans don't.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 15, 2006 4:36 PM

Obviously my sarcasm was lost in the translation.

I'm getting very tired of this Europe-bashing over here. It makes me wonder if there's still any validity behind the anti-Islam arguments being made.

"The murder of the old and sick". That does it for me. You have no idea how many procedures have to be followed. How many talks with doctors. How many second opinions it takes before any doctor is even thinking about helping someone to die. This is never murder; aid at suicide at most!

But of course, subtilty is wasted on most of your shallow minds...

Posted by: mr_atheist at May 15, 2006 4:43 PM

Fortunately, not all Europeans fled, and enough kept on fighting the might of the German army (against all odds) to keep WWII ticking over until the USA and Soviet Union were dragged in.

Britain, and her few allies, fought on alone for nearly two years, suffering defeats, bombings and hardhips when most other countries would have accepted peace terms rather than endure a German invasion (which looked imminent after Dunkirk).

And yes, there are many places where Jews can be openly Jewish in Europe and I (and many others) condemn utterly any anti-Jewish bigots.

Oh, and black people have been free (by law) to sit anywhere they like on a bus for as long as I can remember.

Posted by: Celsius at May 15, 2006 4:50 PM

Seymour Paine-

Read your remarks with interest. The late Charles Kuralt (Rember his tv program "on the road" news features when he traveled all over the US in his van?) once pointed out that more than 50% of Americans could not trace their ancestary back (in America) before 1890. That % is probably higher now.

This is a new society, and there is intense pressure in the USA to assimilate-that is not true for much of the rest of the world-including Europe. That's the difference.

Most Americans don't really care about things that don't interfere with their freedom. Most that came here were escaping controls in the places they left. God bless the USA.

Posted by: Frank at May 15, 2006 5:01 PM

Our own President, his Sec. of State, his Sec. of Defense -- all believe the "vast majority of Muslims are moderates" and that Islam is a religion of peace. Our most conservative and most influential and dominant radio pundits, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, won't give Robert Spencer or Hirsi Ali or Muslim apostates the time of day. Let's not trumpet the USA over Europe until we start showing numbers.

TV

Finally, we disagree.

I'll grant your point about the President, Secretary of State et al. (I don't recall Rumsfeld ever stating that Islam is an ROP or that most Muslims are moderates, but I'll take your word for it)

I don't come across too many people, but on the few occasions that I did, and that they were conservative, they were all uniformly anti-Islamic, be it Palestine, be it Iraq, be it Kashmir (to the extent that it came up) and even (to my surprise) Bosnia and Kosovo.

On the talk shows, Bill O'Reilly, despite those on the left branding him a conservative, ain't one, not only by his own admission, but also by his recent rants against the oil companies. His position on this is not unlike those of the infra-Left, as is his position on the environment.

As for Rush, while he lives in an illusion about an Islam we're against (al-Qaeda, Iran and even to a point the Saudis) vs the one's we're for (UAE, Pakistan, Kuwait), he and Sean Hannity are the only conservatives who think there are moderate Muslims. But listen to Michael Reagan, Rodger Hedgecock*, Lee Rodgers, Bob Dornan and none of them seem to be under the illusion that there is no such thing as moderate Islam. While the Left may be (with some unknown exceptions) by and large clueless, that's not the case with the Right. I wouldn't project the views of either the President or Rush onto the average Conservative voter.

While there is still a lot to be desired from conservatives throughout the country, note that unlike several quarters in Europe that are actively anti-Semitic, the only quarters in US where there is a blatant support for Jihad is the State Department, and the campii. (The former is a GOP problem, but the latter is a problem created by the Left.) But this should be contrasted with the neutrality shown by large sections of the Right, which, while deplorable, is still preferrable to downright dhimmitude.

*Roger Hedgecock hosted Rush's show a day last week, and a caller brought up the similarity between Ahmadinejad's letter, vs the one sent to the Sassanid ruler by Mohammed. Roger himself commented on the contempt that Muslims have for Christianity in that part of the world, and the fact that there are no "moderate" Muslims. That says a lot for the awareness, albeit limited, on the part of the Right. While it would be good to hear that from Rush, and I regret that he isn't on board, I wouldn't project his lack of attention to this issue to other hosts who have been a lot more aware about this threat. (Incidentally, I discontinued my Limbaugh Letter subscription early this year in disgust at his silence on this issue)

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 15, 2006 5:04 PM

Celsius said

Fortunately, most people realise the USA and Europe should be allies against the common threat

I agree we should be allies, but it may well happen that some European countries choose to side with Islam. It's unfortunate but true.

Europe is not the problem. But we also cannot assume that all European countries are on the side of the infidels. It is not simply a matter of voting every few years for this or that, although that is a good start. It is also resisting attempts to institute shar'ia, either out of idealistic multicultural dhimmitude or simply fear of Islamic retaliation. It is encouraging or even forcing the media to cover the jihad accurately and without self-censorship. For every nation that sides with Islam, there will be inhabitants who did not speak out loudly enough when their nation was being Islamicized. Stand and fight (not necessarily with weapons), or accept the results of inactivity. Same is true within the U.S.

I agree with those who say that Belien should stand his ground. He is not being forcibly expelled like Ms. Ali, he is merely being criticized for his beliefs. That is all part of the battle. Anyone who wants to resist the jihad had better develop thick skin and a sharp tongue. Someday, proficiency with other weapons may be required, but for now those two will do.

Posted by: special_guest at May 15, 2006 5:18 PM

-they are bound and determined to hound and persecute anyone who challenges them to face it. They are like the drug addict or alcoholic who rails at anyone who tries to bring him to face just how serious his situation has become-

I'll have to disagree with Robert here and agree with Paolo. The days of the PC-forces in Europe are almost numbered just like the tales of Islam are nearly told.

Don't be mistaken by what you see on TV or your computer screen. The utter disgust of the dhimmified national European bureaucrats is even complete as it is scary. It will take another terrorist attack or a random mistake of the big Iranian Thugh-in-Chief or any other crisis for masses to purge them.

There will be no escape for Islam and their leftist friends, only blood and war.

Posted by: DrWolffenstein at May 15, 2006 5:25 PM

"(I don't recall Rumsfeld ever stating that Islam is an ROP or that most Muslims are moderates, but I'll take your word for it)"

On the Charlie Rose show just a few months ago, Rumsfeld leaned forward, and said emphatically, "the vast majority of Muslims are moderates!"

Posted by: Television at May 15, 2006 5:34 PM

MP wrote: "Hi Seville844- How many of the "different potential outcomes" you envision are good outcomes for what I can only describe as "western civilization"?"

Well I don't know how many different outcomes there are, but many of these doom visions of the future that I read here are on JW/DW are frankly ridiculous. Some guy the other day wrote that the future of Europe was a dark one with neonazi groups fighting against jihadis. Huh? Nazism/Fascism has been discredited and is unlikely to gain strong political power again.

One outcome that is different from the doom talking I read here is an outcome were the muslims adopts western civilization. It has been claimed here that Islam can't change. Sure there are many structures and rules within Islam that suppresses change, but I think it's a mistake to say that it's totally impossible. The muslims will change if they are forced to it.

"People who refuse to defend themselves and their beliefs ARE, in my simplistic view, sniveling, craven idiots."

Do you mean ALL europeans? That was what annoyed me before. Generalizations are the mother of all fookups. Many peopel don't see a danger, I do, so I try to explain to peopel why I am sceptical of Islam. And peopel can change their views.

"Don't worry, just sit back, and let the politicians and intellectuals who are driving your bus do their thing. Where will you be in decade? in two?"

Either I'll be dead or I'll be living in Europe.

Posted by: seville844 at May 15, 2006 6:45 PM

Mr._atheist: I do not care how many accomplices have to be lined to give murder a semblance of legality, it is still murder. As for its being "suicide", it is well known that older Dutch citizens no longer visit doctors for fear of being booked for the exit lounge. The bureaucracy decides you are no longer of use - and then convinces you to agree. Nice work if you can get it, until, of course, your turn to be liquidated comes along. Incidentally, do the disabled babies whose murder has recently been legalized also commit suicide?

Posted by: Paolo at May 15, 2006 6:46 PM

Perhaps I don't have the time to fully study American politics. I am an American but I see no distinction between political parties here except a quicker or slower death for our culture and ideals. I see no one in the American political scene that has a clue about world wide Jihad and what it means for America. If the many political experts in this discussion that are so willing to criticize Europeans and there stand against Islam, please tell me who we can turn to in this country, in the grand American political facade that has the guts of a Nick Griffin, who tells it like it is, is almost jailed by the dhimmi Labour government, and is actually making inroads with the BNP in gaining popular support from people who are sick of what's going on. We have some of the most decadent polticians on Earth in this land, George Bush being one of them. Most of them are puppets of big corporate money and have no ideals except keeping themselves in office. So, please experts of Jihad Watch, tell me where our strong Davy Crockets are in Congress who are willing to offend the Muslim vote and lead us against the Islamic Fascism that is encompassing Europe and will eventually be here? As Robert says, I'm listening...

Posted by: Briars at May 15, 2006 6:58 PM

Previewing your Comment
Seymour Paine wrote: "....the reason we are so goddamn lucky in the U.S. (apart from our sad history with Indians and slavery) is that we don't have that kind of horror going on here. As bad as Bush is (and I despise him hugely), he's nothing compared to the evil that ruled over Europe in the last 100 years...."

I think you are mixing different issues together here. All right, so a guy said he wanted to kill someone else, big deal? Peopel say so much crap.

Has there been war in Europe? Yes. Is war terrible? Yes. Is Europe the only place were there has been wars in the past? No, wars have been fought in every part of the world for thousands of years. So are europeans inherently more violent/cruel/sadistic/evil than everybody elso? No.

"I've wondered time and again why Europe has given rise to such horror and why they are so spineless these days. I don't know; they's no easy answer, is there?"

Instead of making this a question of why EUROPEANS are bad, why not ask why HUMAN BEINGS can be bad? The two world wars were extremely bloody mainly because modern warfare is very destructive, with carpet bombings and the industrialized mass murder of the concentration camps. We don't have some sort of in-built evil nature. Europe has had long periods of peace. Since 1945 Europe ahs been largely peaceful, except from terrorism in the Basque territory, NothernIreland and the civilwars in x-jugoslavia. For a century from 1815 to 1914 no major continental wars broke out. There were a few localized wars like the Franco-German war of 1870, the Crimean war between Britain and Russia 1855 ect. but for most of the time most of the european countries were at peace, able to focus on their internal development and the colonial expansion.

"Europeans have such hatred for their remaining Jews (and why they don't leave beats me; people are fools, I guess), and absolutely no sense of shame for their past actions, that they encourage the rampant anti-Semitism that currently grips Europe and in some cases makes common cause with Islamic fundamentalists (like Ken Livingston)."

Seymor honestly: I have NEVER met a person here who have hated jews. Some have expressed cirticism of Israel but I don't count that as anti-semitism any more than I consider peopel who criticise the US as anti-americans. It IS possible to criticise someone without hating him.

"..-.If I wanted to, I could walk down most anywhere with a Jewish star of david on my neck. Could I do that anywhere in Europe?"

Well, I don't know if you could do that ANYWHERE, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to do it at a neonazi rally, but otherwise quite frankly I don't think that anyone would say or do anything negative. The really serious anti-jewish sentiment here only exists amongst fringe groups - and some of the muslims, of course.

At the end let me just say that I think that the western world should unite. Bad feelings exist between the US and Europe these years for various reasons, but I hope it will pass.

Posted by: seville844 at May 15, 2006 7:31 PM

Seville: I know many people, including many at my (very large) company in Manhattan who come to work with kippas and Jewish stars of david (I am not one of them; I'm an atheist). None have problems. I know you can do this in many cities and towns in America. Jews can exist openly here, living without fear. In Britain, Jewish organizations spend 25% of their budget on defense. In France and Belgium they self-identify at the risk of their lives.

I have read many articles about Jews fearing to be identified in Europe: In England, Beligum, France, Germany; attacked in Malmo. Jews are leaving France, albeit in small numbers, like 3-4000 per year, but leaving none the less. They are not leaving the U.S.

Read Shalom Lappin's article in ENGAGE (online) about British anti-Semitism; how it is getting much much worse.

The Europeans are weak and spineless. For example, in Holland, perhaps the most spineless of European, Dutch school boys are asked not to display the Dutch national flag lest it offends Moslems. This is a big message to Moslems: we are weak, you are strong, please don't hurt us. That would NEVER happen in the U.S. Europeanns simply don't respect themselves or their history or heritage, apart from Jew hatred. On that, they can unite.

And, yes, anti-Israel is definitely anti-Jewish. Anti-Israel is Israeli exceptionalism which can only mean one thing: Jews are different and must be judged differently.

With the growth of Islam in Europe, the situation will only get much worse; the Europeans more spineless (like the Spanish after the train bombing).

It will be interesting watching a great culture commit suicide.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 15, 2006 8:06 PM

TV

You've missed the many posters who've slammed Bush, and especially Rice, over their statements and policies over the past several weeks. In fact, I don't recall seeing any praise for either on this site, and despite being Right-wing myself, I agree with anybody who states that they don't deserve any.

P.S. Get over the fight with your sis.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 15, 2006 8:27 PM

Dear Seville844 - Thanks for continuing our discussion. One problem that every European faces is the fact that "demography is destiny". The Islamic population is growing at a very rapid rate compared to that of native Europeans in virtually every nation on the continent. While it is always dangerous to make predictions based solely on the assumption that present trends will continue, the current rate of immigration into Europe, coupled with the projected birth rate of Muslims already in residence, seems to spell trouble for traditional European values by making Europeans a minority in their own country. In the U.S. a similar demographic shift is taking place, which will leave Americans of European heritage a minority in 50 years or less if trends continue. Who can predict what this entails? The U.S. seems to have a better track record in absorbing immigrants than do most European countries, but time will tell. You suggest one possible outcome where European Muslims embrace western culture. Let's hope this occurs, but several generations into the experiment, this outcome does not seem particularly likely. The youth of the banlieus are not yearning to become European. Again, only time will tell. When I was younger, I had the opportunity to travel on my own in Europe. I continue to study and read, and admire European civilization greatly. This sympathetic interest and sense of a common culture is one reason I give a shit about what happens to your Continent. In some things the United States could have learned from Europe, but has failed to do so. That being said, a characteristic of many European politicians and intellectuals seems to be fatalistic self-hatred, oddly enough coupled with narcissistic elitism. They are either unwilling or unable to publically admit that the multicultural stew that they have concocted is potentially a toxic brew. They refuse to acknowledge that a major problem exists, is growing and ,unless changes come, will continue to grow until it destroys the fabric of their society. At the very highest levels, we have a similar problem with those who insist that the threat is not the basic tenets of Islam, but rather just a few Muslims who have wondered off of the reservation. Lastly, I am not impugning the courage of all Europeans. I believe that each one of us is responsible for defending ourselves and our way of life from those who would do harm. People who see this challenge, and who choose to do nothing are indeed sniveling craven idiots. If you do not defend yourself, who will?

Posted by: MP at May 15, 2006 8:49 PM

I got news for Jihad WAtchers, it isn't "lefists" that are THE problem, the heart of the problem are the globalists..the capitalists, who sell the rope that will hang them, the worshippers of Mammom (aka conservatives) who will sell their souls and the future of their children, for bottom line profits, expanded global markets, trade and of course the perks that come with increasing the market price of their stock.

Then come the idiotic semi sentient pie in the sky, hole in the head leftists.

But without money nothing gets done and the left doesn't have the money that the right has, because the left doesn't run the stockmarkets, the corporations and the governments.

Posted by: Nariz at May 15, 2006 11:35 PM

MP-

The U.S., as usual.

Lafayette, we are here. Lend-Lease. Normandy. Marshall Plan. Cold War shield.

Europeans had free schooling thanks to the Americans who didn't (our money went into global defense, while they took the same funds, which were freed up, since the dumb yankees were on the front lines instead of the socialist vacationers and permanent students, and poured it into schools, public transportation, health care, etc.) yet, with all of that education, they still forgot the meaning of the croissant.

Or Charles Martel.

Or the Ottoman Empire.

Or Lepanto.

Too busy yearning for Utopia to defend reality.

Too smart to think that "dumb", 3rd world Muslims could destroy their cultural superiors. Especially if they placated these slow, soft invaders with welfare goodies and apologized for their colonial crimes.

Misunderstanding that the Islamic Imperialists see this as their Koranic due, the jizyah "tax" from the infidels, while they build up a crypto-colony in Europe to supplant the natives with their own largesse.

The Islamic Womb or the Islamic Bomb, the choices.

The EU has the former aimed at them, the U.S. the latter.

We need to unite to neutralize both.

It'll take the strength and cunning of both continents (and Australia) to stave of the assault from the Ummah.

Emphasizing the Sunni-Shi'ite splits and not our own.

We need to bury the hatchet.

(Preferably in Zarqawi's or Bin Laden's rotten skull.)

And free the future for better arguments.

(Was Miles Davis better than Chet Baker? Did Beckett best Sartre?)

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 16, 2006 12:30 AM

Seymour Paine wrote: "Seville...In Britain, Jewish organizations spend 25% of their budget on defense. In France and Belgium they self-identify at the risk of their lives."

When it comes to voilence directed against jews in Europe, all I've heard is that it's the muslims living here that commit these acts of violence, not native europeans. As I've said, I have never come across anyone I would describe as jew-hating, as a matter of fact peopel never talk about jews. It's a non-issue.

"....Europeanns simply don't respect themselves or their history or heritage, apart from Jew hatred. On that, they can unite."

Wow, so all that unites europeans is hatred for the jews?! I can hardly believe that you yourself believe in that. It's true that some nationalistic symbols, like the national flags have become a bit taboo, but this is untimately because of the excesses of extreme nationalism that we saw earlier in european history, not out of some paralising fear of Islam - unfortunately perhaps.

"And, yes, anti-Israel is definitely anti-Jewish. Anti-Israel is Israeli exceptionalism which can only mean one thing: Jews are different and must be judged differently."

All I said was 'Expressing criticism of Israel' and you immediately make a mental link to anti-jewish discrimination. If someone criticises my country I don't immediately assume that they hate my guts and want to destroy me.

"With the growth of Islam in Europe, the situation will only get much worse; the Europeans more spineless (like the Spanish after the train bombing)."

As for the 'spineless europeans' let me just ask you one question; If the terrorist attacks on the WTC and Pentagon had happened 3 days before the presidential election in 2004 what do you think would have happened?

Posted by: seville844 at May 16, 2006 7:38 AM

Norway invites Hamas (a terrorist organization) for a visit; Sweden's minister of justice defends an iman who calls on his followers to kill Jews; the Holocaust cannot be and is not taught in many French banlieu schools; British teachers unions attempt again to isolate Israel, calling for boycott of Israel academics (not only schools). Just a few "headlines" from recent weeks. After WWII, the British, hating Jews more than Nazis, actually helped Nazis arms Arabs against Jews (whom the British likened to Bolsheviks, taking a page from Nazi propaganda). I have no doubt that an attack on the US right before an election would probably greatly strenghten the incumbent, if there was one, unless there had been serious charges of neglect which a large part of the populace thought true. This was not true in Spain. The Spanish response was, basically, to tell the Moslems: See, you're right, we were wrong, please don't hurt us again.

As for extreme nationalism in Europe: oh, please! In Holland? In Norway (same thing about the display of flags)? Why the Europeans want to bend over for Moslems is beyond me.

And as for criticism of Israel = hatred of Jews: Why does a tiny country merit such scrutiny except because of hatred of Jews? As for criticising your country, I assume Spain, no one tried to exterminate the Spanish; and there is no worldwide movement attacking the existence of the Spanish, as is the case with Jews; nor is Spain under constant seige (well, it is but the Spanish prefer to hide under the pillow and pretend otherwise). Show me one, just one, European university which has a strong bond with Israel and Jews.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 16, 2006 8:22 AM

I don't like Paul Belien at all. He may not be a Muslim, but he's still a religious fanatic, as seen in this comment:

I have repeatedly defended the view that Muslim immigrants are not to blame for Europe’s predicament. The latter is entirely of our own making. Europeans have foolishly replaced God by the State as the one on whom they rely to take care of all their needs from cradle to grave. The religious vacuum has led to a demographic vacuum, because those who lose faith in God lose faith in the future as well. A civilization that has created a religious and a demographic vacuum is bound to perish.

Typical Christian fundamentalism; if you're not a fervently religious Christian, you're a depressed, apathetic atheist who's just waiting for a good chance to kill himself because everything is pointless. I don't understand his notion that hordes of Muslim aggressors inside Europe are not the problem, but Europe's lack of Christianity is the problem. What's the connection? It seems like he's just trying to come up with some confusing, half-assed reason to explain why God is the only thing that can save Europe. Gee, I'm sure Europe would be so much better off if Christian fundamentalists were in charge.

This part is troublesome too:

Europeans have foolishly replaced God by the State as the one on whom they rely to take care of all their needs from cradle to grave.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't turn to God when I need health care, education or postal services. Paul Belien is obviously a few marbles short.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at May 16, 2006 1:01 PM

Seymour Paine wrote: "Norway invites Hamas (a terrorist organization) for a visit; Sweden's minister of justice defends an iman who calls on his followers to kill Jews; the Holocaust cannot be and is not taught in many French banlieu schools; British teachers unions attempt again to isolate Israel, calling for boycott of Israel academics (not only schools). Just a few "headlines" from recent weeks."

Whilst I'll agree with you that Europe is tilting too much in favor of the palestinians and arabs in many cases in the conflict between Israel and it's neighbours, this isn't due to some hatred of jews in general. To make it short, many politicians in Europe, especially those who are left-leaning, seem to have an almost religious belief in 'dialouge' with Islam and the west. I have dropped this idea several years ago because it seems clear to me that the muslims are only trying to win time and won't change unless they are forced to do so. However many peopel think that the muslims are truly interested in integration, mainly due to ignorance of Islam.

"After WWII, the British, hating Jews more than Nazis, actually helped Nazis arms Arabs against Jews (whom the British likened to Bolsheviks, taking a page from Nazi propaganda)."

Hmm, 'hating jews more than nazis', again I have to ask myself if you are serious. I guess you are. I just can't see how you can compare the british with the absolutely brainwashed jew-hating nazis. The Brits have always bee good at 'devide and conquer' when administrating their empire, but they rarely descended into meaningless cruelty like the nazi holocaust. All right, they supported the Arabs sometimes, but that's politics.

"I have no doubt that an attack on the US right before an election would probably greatly strenghten the incumbent, if there was one, unless there had been serious charges of neglect which a large part of the populace thought true."

This is interesting. In Spain the public was furious about the right-wing Aznar government who tried to put the blame for the attact on ETA (in the first days after the attack it wasn't certain who the perpetrators were), thus exploiting the attact domestically. That was the main reason why enough votes shifted to the Socialist Party for them to win. So if not neglect, it was downright lies that cost the right-wing Partido Popular the victory.

"This was not true in Spain. The Spanish response was, basically, to tell the Moslems: See, you're right, we were wrong, please don't hurt us again."

It was, unfortunately, an inevitable consequence of the Socialist victory that some peopel would interpret the election result in that way. Who ever had won the election, the terrorists had stolen the agenda.

"As for extreme nationalism in Europe: oh, please! In Holland? In Norway (same thing about the display of flags)? Why the Europeans want to bend over for Moslems is beyond me."

I'm thinking about the two world wars, both products of nationalism and imperialism. Even countries who didn't take such an active part in the wars, have been influenced by these dramatic events. Add to that the post-colonial guilt that all major european colonial powers have developed, this has created a mental barrier against various forms of national expressions.

"And as for criticism of Israel = hatred of Jews: Why does a tiny country merit such scrutiny except because of hatred of Jews?"

It merits scrutiny because of the ongoing conflict between Israel and it's neighbours. If Israel and the Middleeast were a peaceful region no such 'scrutiny' would be necessary and Israel would just be like any other country.

"As for criticising your country, I assume Spain, no one tried to exterminate the Spanish; and there is no worldwide movement attacking the existence of the Spanish, as is the case with Jews; nor is Spain under constant seige (well, it is but the Spanish prefer to hide under the pillow and pretend otherwise)."

It's true that the jewish history is unique. Few other peoples in the world, if any, have such a background. And don't get me wrong, I have the deepest sympathy with the plight of the jewish nation over the centuries. Sometimes I've wondered why jewish peopel are so 'hypersensitive' about criticism, but when considering what you guys have been through, I guess it's not so strange after all. Had my peopel survived the Holocoust and plenty of other progroms, I would also be suspicious of other peopels motives.

"Show me one, just one, European university which has a strong bond with Israel and Jews."

I don't have any information about that.

Seymour, I'm sure we will have the opportunity to discuss more issues in the future here on JW/DW. Have a nice day.

Posted by: seville844 at May 16, 2006 1:13 PM

Dear MP ".....When I was younger, I had the opportunity to travel on my own in Europe. I continue to study and read, and admire European civilization greatly. This sympathetic interest and sense of a common culture is one reason I give a shit about what happens to your Continent. In some things the United States could have learned from Europe, but has failed to do so. That being said, a characteristic of many European politicians and intellectuals seems to be fatalistic self-hatred, oddly enough coupled with narcissistic elitism...."

I think you have a point here. I'm preparing an essay to provide at detailed version of what I think is wrong with Europe these days. Later on I will post it here on JW/DW, probably in another thread, I just don't have time to give you a good reply right now.

Posted by: seville844 at May 16, 2006 1:45 PM