I am a Hindu from India and I have never understood why the Germans call themselves Aryans. We Hindus call ourselves Aryans. The Aryans were the followers of the Vedic culture which we follow to this date. Indeed, 'Aryan' is a common name in India. I also fail to understand how muslim iran wants to call itself Aryan. I do understand the word iran derives from 'Aryan', but, are they not all muslims ? Time to hit the books again, I think.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 21, 2006 7:58 AM

AS USUAL HISTORY REPEATS!
Neo Nazis and Muslims have a lot in common not just hating Jews.
They have a shared history of working side by side in the biggest Ethnic Cleansing Operations the world has known.[There was Genghis Khan but he wasn't particular about which race provided his collection for 'pyramids of skulls.]
What is the difference between brutal Nazi Ideology and Islam? Both glory in the killing of any who oppose them and the 'others'. Both would control an individual's life from cradle to the grave,BOTH CELEBRATE DEATH.
And JWatchers, WE SAY NO TO NEO NAZIS AND ISLAM.

Posted by: Morgane at May 21, 2006 8:11 AM

I hope this parade gets plenty of media coverage.
It might just wake up some from their 9/10 coma.

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at May 21, 2006 8:15 AM

The "Aryan" thing, for the Nazis, comes from the one-time conflation of "Aryan" and "Indo-European."

Nowadays, apparently, these are considered two different groups (or concepts, depending on how you look at it), but in the 20's/30's the terms were used interchangeably.

The Nazis believed the Indo-Europeans/Aryans were the whitest and "purest" of all people, and that contemporary Germans were the descendents of this pure race, everybody else being mutts and mongrels, deserving of subservience and slavery.

The Indo-Europeans/Aryans were believed to have been extraordinarily proficient conquerers who left a swath of cultural and linguistic influence from England to Iran and that is one reason they were believed to be a superior race.

Posted by: Snippet at May 21, 2006 8:20 AM

"I am a Hindu from India and I have never understood why the Germans call themselves Aryans"

Hi arjun.sevak, there ist no need to understand that. Except the Nazis, Germans do not consinder themselves Aryan or even just know, what the expression exactly means.

First (in the 19th century) the expression was only used linguistically ( many European Languages belong to the Indo-Aryan family of languages). The Nazis used the expression in an extremely racist way, just to create a word for "opposite to Jews (and Slavs)". It is nathing more than a WORD OF PROPAGANDA and was in Germany only used by a most disgusting regime ... it is not at all academicly correct.

I've never in my life heard a fellow German saying "I am Aryan" or "We are Aryan"...if somebody would say that to me, I would be aghast and call him a nazi. We use the expression only in historical context.

But, I suppose neo-nazis will indeed still use it, but I'm sure, they only use it because Hitler used it and they don't know anything about the correct meaning of the word. (Most of them being uneducated and stupid )

They do not love Achmedinejad because they consinder him 'Aryan'. They surely consider NO ONE 'Aryan' who is not looking like a typical Western European! They are racists.

They love Achmedinejad because he denies the holocaust and because he hates the US and because he wants to destroy Israel. And that's the reason why they like the "Palestenians" and Islam as well.

It's just that simple and that sad.

Posted by: Eisvogel at May 21, 2006 8:36 AM

Hitler admired Islamic jihad and talked it over with a Muslim theologian visiting Germany in the 1920s.

http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/islamic-influence-on-hitler-can-it-be.html

I wonder how the pro-jihad "left" will respond to this news, if they notice it at all. But they collaborate with the IslamoNazis, on the pretext of "anti-imperialism," so this news will probably not bother them in the least.

Posted by: Eliyahu at May 21, 2006 8:47 AM

Snippet, Eisvogel,
Yes there are linguistic and cultural similarities. English and Hindi descended from Sanskrit. That is an established fact. But, what is a myth, the Aryans were never conquerers. It was considered bad to encroach others' land in Ancient India. That is the reason you won't find the Indus Valley Empire's remains in Europe. The Aryans rarely went beyond Persia, and Persia had no complaints to make of Aryans either. But these idiots are hijacking the word Aryan, which stands for vegetarian people, not perpetrators of genocide. Can somebody tell these morons, if they claim to be Aryans, that the muslims killed hundreds of millions of their Aryan 'brothers' in their aggression of India. Not that it would make a difference to these stupid nazis.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 21, 2006 9:15 AM

Eisvogel,

while it is true that only few Germans today would say they were Aryan, it is unfortunately true that when it comes to issues such as conflict in the Middle East, Iran, USA(bashing) the majority of Germans share the sentiment with those Neo-Nazis (not the ideas of instruments to be applied, but the sentiment).
It is outrageous that Iran is allowed to come to Germany and participate in this sport event, jet did we see or hear any Germans protesting? No. Zero. Null. On the contrary, Iran is becomming lot of positive coverage in the German media, - the Iranian madman with the unspeakable name is being criticized, however, there are plenty of article about so called ordinary people of Iran, students or artists, who are mostly portrayed as civilized, enlighthend and critical of regim. Those beautiful people are never challenged with questions about Israel (because they would probably give answers not so different from their leaders) and those articles are mostly illustrated by photos showing extreemely good looking young Iranians. The purpose of such coverage is to feed the anti-American sentiment and gain allies in the Muslim world, so that USA and its efforts in the Middle East can be undermined. Unfortunately, this approach applies for the majority of EU countries.

By the way, also Slavic languages have descended from Sanskrt (only few languages in Europe have not descended from Sanskrt: Hungarian and Finnish, thay are thought to be related with Turkish). Nazis have excluded Slavs from the Indo-Aryan group in order to be able to declare them a "lower race". In a way this heritage is still cultivated on German universities, where a term "Indo-Germanic" is widely applied, including also not Germanic languages such as Italian, French or Spanish, but excluding Slavic languages such as Polish, Czech, Russian or Serbian.

Regards to all, Serbian girl

Posted by: Serbian girl at May 21, 2006 10:55 AM

Historians tend to use the term Indo-European now, because Aryan has been given bad connotations by the Nazis. Arya means "noble", and, presumably, would have been the name the ruling class used for itself.

However, I thought that the Indus Valley civilization was pre-Indo-European. Are you sure that is not so? Moreover, surely there were Dravidian and proto-Australoid peoples in India before the incursion of the Hindus (Indo-Europeans). As I understand it, there are still a fair few of the former in India, where they are sometimes referred to as "tribals". Norman Lewis writes quite a lot about them in A Goddess in the Stones.

The customs of some of these peoples seem quite interesting. Some seem to be in the process of migrating to Hindu beliefs. But I gained the impression, from what Lewis said, that Christian and Islamic missionaries were interested in converting them and had had some success. I'd have thought the Indian Government would have been worried about the activities of Islamists among suich peoples. Minorities can be quite a useful insurgency weapon against a central government - c.f. the Montagnards used by the U.S. in the Vietnam War.

Posted by: Yojimbo at May 21, 2006 10:55 AM

In a way this heritage is still cultivated on German universities, where a term "Indo-Germanic" is widely applied, including also not Germanic languages such as Italian, French or Spanish, but excluding Slavic languages such as Polish, Czech, Russian or Serbian.

Wow!

Posted by: Yojimbo at May 21, 2006 10:59 AM

English and Hindi descended from Sanskrit.

English is more like a nephew or niece, or second cousin of Sanskrit. English, Sanskrit and Hindi are part of the same Indo-European group, but Hindi and Sanskrit are much more closely related. They are related as French or Italian is to Latin.

The term Indo-Germanic is an obsolete term for Indo-European. It may have political, and undesirable connotations, but it does not necessarily exclude Slavic languages.

Posted by: Interested at May 21, 2006 11:18 AM

How long until someone calls the Nazis Christians? 4, 3, 2....

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 21, 2006 11:43 AM

It's a bit hypocritical of the Germans to allow this neo-Nazi rally, while at the same time threatening to arrest and jail England fans for doing the goose step:

Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, gave England fans a stern warning yesterday that they would be arrested and jailed if they performed a Nazi salute, chanted Sieg Heil or goose stepped during the World Cup in Germany.

Mr Clarke, speaking during a briefing on the tournament, said there were very strict laws in Germany against glorifying the Third Reich and that neither he nor the authorities would see the funny side of such behaviour.

He said even the chanting of war-time songs and carrying paraphernalia such as inflatable Spitfires and German helmets could fall foul of strict codes of conduct...

"It's not a joke, it is not a comic thing to do. It is totally insulting and wrong."

Posted by: Interested at May 21, 2006 11:53 AM

Interested-

"Inflatable spitfires"?

But they were English.

Maybe they mean pneumatic Stukas?

Mahmoud and the mad mullahs are sure to bring back some other type of inflatables from Germany after their visit.

Maybe a blow-up Mahdi doll?

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 21, 2006 12:35 PM

To "Interested":

No one has yet said if the demos will be allowed. Most certainly the papers trying to ban the demos are already before a number of judges. First, wait to see what the decision is.

Second, what Mr. Clarke said is the truth. Read what I wrote about §130 of the german civil code under DHIMMI WATCH: "More hate books found in Bookstores". His instructions are good advise and those same instructions are given to soccer fans (the "rowdies") every year. This year should be no exception.

There was a huge process underway five years ago to try to destroy the extreme right-wing party NPD. Because of a (get this) stupid paperwork glitch, the case was thrown out. Since this point, it has been hard to ban all demos, and each and every case must go before the local judge. Most demos do not get through, but some do. Of one thing I can assure you: these terrible, evil neo-nazis know exactly what they can and cannot do during their demos or they will be arrested (including, but not limited to the Hitler-Salute, goose-stepping and war songs). Their slime and filth is well trained and subtile.

Lastly, if they march, I can tell you now that there will be a counter-march from those who are against the neo-nazis, and that the counter marches are usually 10-30 times bigger. An anti-march is already being planned, just to be on the safe side.

Posted by: bonncaruso at May 21, 2006 12:43 PM

Yojimbo,
There was no incursion of the Indo-Europeans on India. This is another of those myths. We, the Hindus, have always lived here. The Dravidians, whom you speak of, are based in Peninsular, or South India. They perform the same rites, in the same language, Sanskrit, as the North Indian Aryans. Their family system is the same as that of Aryans, as are the sets of beliefs. If Aryans had invaded, the culture of both the Aryans and the Dravidians would not be so homogeneous. This was a myth, and now there are books that prove it fact by fact. However, India does have more than its share of languages and dialects.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 21, 2006 12:44 PM

"Inflatable spitfires"?

But they were English

Yes, but English soccer hooligans doing the goose step are not praising the Germans but mocking them, as the German Government are only too aware.

They have also been known to sing: "Two world wars and one world cup, doo dah, doo dah."

I believe the Shepherd Neame Brewery has been cited by German diplomats as a cause of unacceptable British triumphalism, too - at any rate, someone who considered himself to represent Germany (I can't recall who) made a request to London Transport to remove posters advertsing Shepherd Neame's inflammatory Spitfire Ale from the London Underground:

http://www.spitfireale.co.uk/

Posted by: Yojimbo at May 21, 2006 12:45 PM

profitsbeard,
Evidently they must understand that the Spitfire as a war bird vastly out preformed the Stuka and was largely responsible for the scrapping of Operation Sea Lion (Invasion of England) so why not rewrite history if it suits them?

Posted by: tgusa at May 21, 2006 12:46 PM

Arjun,

You do surprise me, since Lewis describes social customs and religious beliefs among the "tribals" that are, indeed, extremely unlike those of the Hindus. Obviously, it is not only the Muslims who rewrite "history" as they see fit. But no matter. This topic, while interesting in itself is off-topic for the site.

Posted by: Yojimbo at May 21, 2006 12:48 PM

English soccer hooligans doing the goose step are not praising the Germans but mocking them, as the German Government are only too aware.

Of course. The distinction is crucial.

"Two world wars and one world cup, doo dah, doo dah."

I thought it was:

"One world cup and two world wars, doo dah, doo dah."

Either way it's bloody funny.

Posted by: Interested at May 21, 2006 12:52 PM

From Yojimbo's link:

Spitfire Ale - the Bottle of Britain

Nice one.

Posted by: Interested at May 21, 2006 12:56 PM

Yojimbo,
The Dravidians are not tribals. The tribals live in the jungles of Central India and are on bows and arrows till date. But you are right, this is off topic.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 21, 2006 12:58 PM

I wonder how the pro-jihad "left" will respond to this news, if they notice it at all. But they collaborate with the IslamoNazis, on the pretext of "anti-imperialism,"

The French geopolitical analyst Alexandre Del Valle has written about a growing "axis" among the Reds, the Browns, and the Greens: The Reds, The Browns and the Greens or: The Convergence of Totalitarianisms.

Reds = Communists/Socialists/Leftists; Browns = neo-Nazis/ultra-Right; Greens = Islamists.

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=131

Posted by: Television at May 21, 2006 1:23 PM

From Yojimbo's link:

Spitfire Ale - the Bottle of Britain

Nice one.

Mines a pint, please.
:-)

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 21, 2006 1:55 PM

No spitfires, definitely no spitfires.
Guess we will just have to make do with scoring more goals then.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 21, 2006 2:03 PM

Granny Weatherwax,
Sixty plus years later and I an still in awe when I see one fly by, Purred like a Kitten, flew like a hawk, stung like a Giant Steel Scorpion.

Posted by: tgusa at May 21, 2006 2:15 PM

Those Germans. Always on the wrong side of history.

"I'm a neo-Nazi punk and can't stand arabs! Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Schnell!

"I'm a neo-Nazi punk and I can't stand George Bush or America!" Welcome, Hans, to the World Cup. Beer?

Posted by: somethingaboutislam at May 21, 2006 3:05 PM

Did you fly one tgusa?
My fatherin -law worked on their electrics (among other aircraft) when he was in the RAF.
The Battle of Britain memorial flight gives me a thrill whenever I see it.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 21, 2006 3:13 PM

Granny Weatherwax,
No Maam, that was a little before my time. Just an admirer from afar as I am of many things British. After all, my family did come from the UK.

Posted by: tgusa at May 21, 2006 3:24 PM

"Remember that "Persia" became "Iran" in 1935 in order to stress its "Aryan" heritage and thereby make an overture to the man that the Shah thought would eventually become the most powerful man on earth, Adolf Hitler."

"The future isn't what it used to be."-Yogi Berra

Ahmadinejad has dreams of Israeli genocide dancing in his head and so do the Neo-Nazis and other species of jihadists, but Yogi Berra's wisdom may be the last words for them as it was for Hitler.

Posted by: Frank at May 21, 2006 3:41 PM

Insanity knows no bounds.

Posted by: Texican at May 21, 2006 4:00 PM

Yojimbo-

Thanks for the tasty link!

I'll have to try a "bottle of Britain".

And raise a toast against terror and to Airey Neave, the first Brit is escape the Nazi stalag at Colditz ("The Colditz Story", worth a read), but who was later killed by a sophisticated IRA car bomb in 1979.

"Down Terror, Up Freedom!"

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 21, 2006 4:46 PM

strange that the nazi are so pro-muslims. I read some news that said some fascist from all over europe are meeting in germany for the world cup to beat the crap out of muslims.

Usually the extreme right (or far right) is anti muslim.

Posted by: gorniak at May 21, 2006 4:56 PM

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'"

Winston Churchill - June 18, 1940

I hope Spitfire ale is as good as New Castle brown ale?

Cheers

Posted by: Bar at May 21, 2006 5:01 PM

I believe it is 'two world wars and one world cup'.
There is no way the German authorities would allow a neo-Nazi rally during the world cup, it will not happen.
English hooligans being told not to give the seig heil salute is serious, because of the infestation of neo-nazis into the fighting portion of the English fans.
I think the Poles are trying to arrange a hooligan world cup where national fights are being set up. We’ll have to wait and see what violence does take place.

Posted by: albion at May 21, 2006 6:31 PM

For the Love of Hitler
Iranians and the Neu-Nazis
Join hands

We stopped them once
And we can stop them
Once again

Posted by: Pass It On at May 21, 2006 6:44 PM

I believe it is 'two world wars and one world cup'.

Be that as it may, it's certainly "doo dah, doo dah". This one's going to run all night, going to run all day...

This song features in an episode of Fawlty Towers, but not that one. John Cleese, having turned terribly dull since he moved to America, has done a volte-face.

Posted by: Interested at May 21, 2006 6:48 PM

you're right, it does end with "doo dah, doo dah". :)

Posted by: albion at May 21, 2006 6:52 PM

Israel: Iran 'months' from making nukes
Prime minister says unilateral action not being considered

Sunday, May 21, 2006; Posted: 5:34 p.m. EDT (21:34 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/21/iran.nuclear/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Iran is only months away from joining the club of nations that can make a nuclear weapon, Israel's prime minister said in a recent interview.

"The technological threshold is very close," Ehud Olmert said on CNN's "Late Edition" in an interview taped Thursday and broadcast Sunday.

"It can be measured by months rather than years."

Asked whether he believes Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would halt his nation's nuclear-enrichment program under international pressure, Olmert said, "I prefer to take the necessary measures to stop it, rather than to find out later that my indifference was so dangerous."

Some observers disagree with Israel's characterization, saying Iran is five to 10 years away from being able to make a nuclear weapon.

Iran has ignored a U.N. Security Council demand that it stop nuclear-enrichment activities or face possible sanctions.

In an allusion to the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II, Olmert said, "In modern times, we have to remember what happened when the world did not listen to dictators threatening other nations [with] annihilation."

Ahmadinejad has called for the destruction of Israel and raised questions about whether the Holocaust happened.

Most observers say Israel has long possessed nuclear weapons, but it has never acknowledged that publicly. The country has shown it is willing to act unilaterally on nuclear matters, attacking and destroying Iraq's nuclear reactor facility at Osirak in 1981.

Asked if Israel is planning a similar action against Iran, Olmert said the two situations are not analogous, as the world's attention is focused on Iran's nuclear ambitions, which was not the case 25 years ago with Iraq.

Olmert, who is visiting President Bush this week, said he hoped instead that "the responsible forces will take the necessary measures." He expressed confidence that Bush "will lead other nations in taking the necessary measures to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear power."

Asked if Israel might take unilateral action against Iran, Olmert said, "I don't think that we have come close to even considering it."

GOP senator: Talk 'directly'

A prominent Republican lawmaker in the United States said Sunday that the Bush administration should end its opposition to direct talks with Iran.

"We, the United States, are going to have to engage Iran directly," said Sen. Chuck Hagel, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

"When you're talking about nuclear proliferation, you don't get many second chances," the Nebraska Republican told CNN.

The so-called EU-3 -- Britain, France and Germany -- have led negotiations, which stalled earlier this year. China and Russia have also been involved in talks with Iran.

Iran's leaders have insisted that they are pursuing a nuclear program solely for peaceful purposes, a claim challenged by the United States and much of the international community.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said on "Fox News Sunday" that the international community has not asked the United States to promise Iran it will not attack or otherwise try to destabilize the regime.

"What we're talking about is a package that will make clear to Iran that there are choices to be made: either that there will be sanctions and actions taken against Iran by the international community, or there's a way for them to meet their civil nuclear concerns," she said.

Rice added, "Iran is a troublemaker in the international system, a central banker of terrorism. Security assurances are not on the table."

Last week, Ahmadinejad rejected a possible European offer for incentives, including a light-water nuclear reactor, in return for giving up its uranium-enrichment program.

Light-water reactors are more difficult to use in the development of weapons than are heavy-water plants, which produce more nuclear material.

Iran insists that it has a right under the 1968 nuclear nonproliferation treaty to produce nuclear fuel. But the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog, has called on Iranian officials to clear up unresolved questions about its intentions.

The Security Council has been debating a resolution, backed by the United States, Britain and France, that would give the demand the force of international law and open the door to possible sanctions if Iran continues to refuse.

Russia and China, two of the council's veto-wielding permanent members, have said they oppose sanctions.
Democrats seek intelligence estimate

Some U.S. intelligence officials have estimated, based on the assumption that Iran has only slower, "P-1" centrifuges for enriching uranium, that the country is five to 10 years away from making a nuclear weapon. But Ahmadinejad recently asserted that Iran is "now under the process of research and testing" of faster "P-2" centrifuges.

Enriched uranium can be used to fuel power plants or, in much higher concentrations, to produce nuclear weapons.

The chairman of the U.S. House Intelligence Committee said last month that "we really don't know" how close Iran is to developing a nuclear weapon.

"We've got a long way to go in rebuilding our intelligence community," Rep. Pete Hoekstra, a Michigan Republican, told Fox News.

Rep. Jane Harman of California, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, concurred that "our intelligence is thin."

Five key Senate Democrats asked President Bush on Friday to order a new national intelligence estimate on Iran to avoid repeating misjudgments with intelligence that were made in the months leading up to the war in Iraq.

Led by Minority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada, the senators also asked for an unclassified summary of the estimate's key findings "to facilitate the public debate."

===========================================

PM: Iran months from nuke know-how

Nathan Guttman

THE JERUSALEM POST
May. 21, 2006

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961386695&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

On the eve of his meeting with US President George W. Bush, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has warned that Iran is much closer to mastering nuclear technology than previously thought.

"This technological threshold is nearer than we anticipated before. This is because they are already engaged very seriously in enrichment," Olmert told CNN in an interview recorded before he left Israel on Sunday for Washington.

The prime minister added that Iran was only a few months away from acquiring the technology needed for building a nuclear bomb.

"The technological threshold is very close. It can be measured in months rather than years," he said.

Israel's ambassador to the US, Danny Ayalon, said Iran's nuclear program was expected to be a major issue on the agenda of Olmert's meeting with Bush, scheduled for Tuesday.

"The Iranian issue is becoming more urgent due to the acceleration of the enrichment process and due to Iran's defiance of the international community," Ayalon told The Jerusalem Post.

In his talks with Bush, Olmert is expected to present Israel's latest assessments regarding Iran's advancement in its nuclear program. Olmert will want to hear from Bush on the US's plans for dealing with Iran, and is expected to stress that Iran is not seen as an Israeli problem but rather as an issue concerning the entire international community.

The American approach favors pursuing the diplomatic channel through the UN Security Council in attempt to convince Russia and China to join - or at least not to oppose - a new resolution which will enable the imposition of sanctions on Iran under Chapter 7 of the UN charter.

If this avenue proves fruitless, the US is expected to go ahead with its "plan B," which consists of moving for sanctions against Iran without going through the UN Security Council. The administration would seek the participation of European nations as well as Japan, Canada and Australia in implementing such sanctions, without requesting other UN countries to join.

Israel is now trying to downplay the role of the Palestinian issue in Olmert's conversation with Bush and is stressing Iran as the major topic on the table. This change of emphasis is seen mainly as a result of current US reluctance to endorse Olmert's plan for unilateral withdrawal from parts of the West Bank.

In his interview with CNN, Olmert said that the plan, which diplomatic sources said would now be referred to as the "realignment plan" (after previously being called "second disengagement," "convergence" and "consolidation"), was blown out of proportion.

"I was elected prime minister of Israel on the sole agenda that I am prepared to negotiate with the Palestinians," Olmert said, adding that there was nothing he would want more than to reach an agreement.

Ayalon, who was part of the team preparing Olmert's talks in Washington, said that the realignment would be presented only as an alternative if all sides came to the conclusion there was no partner on the Palestinian side. According to Ayalon, the US and Israel would engage in a process of mutual consultations similar to that which preceded the Gaza disengagement, a plan which the US took seven months to endorse.

"I believe that when the time comes and the conditions are right, the administration will support the plan," Ayalon added.

Olmert was due to arrive in Washington late Sunday night and is to spend Monday in consultations with his advisers at the Blair House. He will end the day in a working dinner with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and will meet President Bush Tuesday afternoon.

Posted by: jeffreyimm at May 21, 2006 7:16 PM

For a closer look at the symbiotic NAZI Muslim coalition take a look at Aryan Nations they even have an Imam.

From Expatica: Germans increasingly negative on Islam, polls show

Posted by: Nariz at May 21, 2006 9:31 PM

Arjun,

Lets not get into this denial-of-Indo-Aryan-migration theory. Our ancestors came into subcontinent 3500 years back and that doesnt make us any more less Indian. Even dravidians are Caucasoid group related to the semitic peoples (there is a theory that they migrated from modern day Syria.). Ancestry is accidental. Come to terms with it. Even i have a lil' bit of Iranian Shia Muslim in me.

Remember that "Persia" became "Iran" in 1935 in order to stress its "Aryan" heritage

Technically Iranians and Indians are related ethnic groups. Avestan and Sanskrit are sister languages. Still i believe "Aryan race" is a modern construct. Indo-Aryan these days i more of a lingiustic term. Since most of "Indo-Aryans" in India have los of Dravidian, Hunnic, Parthian, Scythian and Arab ancestry in them. Vice versa is also true. Dravidian haplo-types have been found as far as Turkey.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at May 22, 2006 1:34 AM

Yojimbo,

Dravidians are not tribals, the term is used for people who speak Dravidian laguages originating in peninsular India. Dravidian languages are markedly different than Indo-Aryan languages of North and Western-India. As for tribals they are refered to as adivasi literally meaning "aboriginal" . They are thought to be proto-Australoid pre-historic dwellers of India.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at May 22, 2006 1:38 AM

The people of Persia/Iran always called their country "Iran" (land of Aryans) and this had nothing to do with Nazis or anything. Ancient Persian Kings referred to themselves as "Aryan son of Aryan, king of Iran." Tha formal name change in 1935 merely matched the international name of teh country with its domestic name, the same way that Peking has been changed to Beijing now or Bombai has been changed to Mumbai.

Posted by: SeenathePersian at May 22, 2006 1:46 AM

Ajun wrote: I also fail to understand how muslim iran wants to call itself Aryan.

Ajun, the reason can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people

"The Persians of Iran are descendents of the Aryan (Indo-Iranian) tribes that began migrating from Central Asia into what is now Iran in the 2nd millennium BC..."

Posted by: SeenathePersian at May 22, 2006 1:49 AM

Guys,
I don't want to sound like I want to win this debate. What I have come across is the complete negation of this migration theory. What I want to say in my humble capacity as only a reader of books,
is that there is a LOT of information to disseminate. Most of the info is lost by, you guessed it, destruction by islam. Broadly, the thing is -

1. There were ancient civilizations.

2. They interacted. (you agree with this.)

Trouble is, we need a complete team of archaeologists,historians, linguists, people specialized in both the old and the newer version of languages, software to analyze all data, and some geniuses who put it all together. The present trend is, a gent goes to a part of the world, interviews some natives, and puts together his 'conclusion'. And some other gentleman reads it, puts it on Wikipedia, and it becomes a fact. Then some other gent reads this book/goes to Wikipedia and is 'enlightened' by the conclusions of a single oaf. And I am compared to muslims for stating otherwise this 'fact'. I am posting off topic, and it is bothering me, but I do wish people read at least 4 - 5 authors before arriving to conclusions.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 22, 2006 2:26 AM

Seenathepersian,
Thanks for the link. My posting above was directed at somebody who was claiming that the Aryans invaded India. Seena, you know something that Wikipedia does not post. India has the largest population of Persians. And it is not mentioned. That is what I was speaking about in my post above. Info is not as readily available, well, accurate info is not. And muslims are not Persians. muslims are, well, just muslims.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 22, 2006 4:32 AM

"Can somebody tell these morons, if they claim to be Aryans, that the muslims killed hundreds of millions of their Aryan 'brothers' in their aggression of India."

They would not care, arjun.sevak. Nazis do not care about murdered people... it is their nature not to do so. I have learned, that it is completely futile to debate rationally with them. The only intelligent argument against them is: "Shut up and go to hell, moron"

The Nazis have not only hijacked the word 'Aryan', I know, that they have hijacked the swastika, which was ( and still is?) a positive symbol in India as well and which now is the symbol of the most horrible insanity, cruelty and genocide ever occured.

@Serbian girl: you are completely right. Indeed there are very few real neo-nazis in Germany. I never in my life saw somebody in the typical "neonazi-costume" ... except on TV. And I never in my life met somebody using typical nazi-paroles .... except in internet-forums. And even in internet-forums very rarely and they are most often banned from the forums immediately.

It is indeed the German ( and other European?) "left" and Islamophiles who are Hitler's true heirs. And somehow those very few constantly-drunken, uneducated and stupid idiots are very useful to them.

That's what they say:

"Look at these horrible dirty nazis. They are the bad guys ( surely they really ARE in my opinion as well... but this is not the point) and we, who are accusing them, we, who are crying in public about Jews who died more than 60 years ago whreas we think, that Jews, who are murdered in Israel today, have somehow deserved it (because they are land-robbers and oppressors)- we are the good guys, the ONLY and REAL anti-nazis! We are so extremely anti-nazi that we feel obliged to warn the Israelis and the Americans not to become nazis. And we are in deep sorrow, they could do so or they already did so.

Though we tell you, Achmedinejad has the right to possess nukes: we are the good guys! Though we tell you, that Israel is the most dangerous threat to mankind - we are the good guys. Though we tell you, that George Bush is as evil as Osama Bin Laden - we are the good guys. Though we tell you that blowing up Jews or Americans in suicide attacks is freedom fighting, though we tell you, that Israel belongs to the "Palestenians" and should immediately be given to them, though we think Bush is like Hitler and Sharon is like Hitler and Saddam Hussein is a victim of evil imperialism, and though we think, that Iran will stop hating Israel if only we give nukes tu them, we are the good guys.

And to prove, that we are the good guys, we are blaming those few drunken idiots with swastika flags hanging over their beds to be the bad ones, and we send them to jail.

We are the good guys because we have learned out of history that everyone who wears a uniform is evil and every one who doesn't wear a uniform is a poor victim. Look at the Palestenians and other suicide bombers - do they wear uniforms? No, they don't. Look at the IDF and the US troops - do they wear uniforms? Yes, they do!"

That's their stupid evil and deeply vicious self-rightous comfortable world. And if you dare to dissagree, you are called "racist", "islamophobe" "zionist groupie", "zionazi" and so on.... after 5 years of internet discussion with those "good guys" I have to stay away from such forums for a while, because I am no more able to debate with them without yelling my pure hatred to them.

I beg you to believe: We are not like this all of us in Germany. But unfortunately we are the minority - perhaps not even a very small minority - but definitely a minority. Sometimes I think: Oh they deserve to be islamized. They deserve it. Let's look forward to Germanistan where those "good guys" are being chopped off their selv-rightous heads by those, they now welcome as their friends and allies against Israel and the USA.

Sometimes I feel so depressed and resignated - so tired and sad. Sorry for weeping on your shoulder here.

Posted by: Eisvogel at May 22, 2006 5:13 AM

India has the largest population of Persians.

Parsis (i.e Zoroastrians) actually. Persian is an ethnicity and hence even a Shia Muslim is a Persian just as any Pakistani or Pashtun Afghan will be an Indo-Aryan.

"Iran" (land of Aryans)

Iran is a mere Persian corruption of Sanskrit word Arya. Ancient name of North India is "Aryavarta" or the Land of Aryans... Still dont go by the wikipedia link, Indians and Iranians have been POV warring over there claiming the ownership Aryan identity. Those idiots dont understand that they both are two branches of Aryans. Having said that it is India rather than Iran which gas preserved Aryan culture.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at May 22, 2006 5:19 AM

swastika, which was ( and still is?) a positive symbol in India

Swastika is a holy symbol of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and i think also Sikhism. It symbolises the symmetry in nature.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at May 22, 2006 5:21 AM

Granny, Interested, Yojimbo et al.

Our govt. has been kind enough to provide German translations of our beloved football songs. Darn they have the Scouser's song but no Chelsea songs :( . Maybe some of you guys can help me translate "Chel-sea of Blue" into German.

http://www.britishembassyworldcup.com/en/crazy/songs.htm

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at May 22, 2006 5:36 AM

Eisvogel,

wow, we think the same way and you giving me back a bit of hope regarding Germans (I´ve been living in Frankfurt for 16 years, and feel sad the same way, both over Germany and Europe in general, for the same sort of reason). Pitty that we are so few and mostly don´t know each other.

Nice regards from Serbian girl

Posted by: Serbian girl at May 22, 2006 5:52 AM

Nice regards to you as well, Serbian girl. Indeed I live only about 80 kilometers south of Frankfurt ...unfortunately we've never met. We are really only few and without internet we would be all alone. I am very happy that I found this site where there are free people from all over the world thinking the same way. I wonder how Mr. Spencer manages to keep the hateful red, brown and green totalitarist out.

I do not know if there is still hope for Germany and Europe. And sometimes I wonder how it feels to love your own country just as nearly everyone on earth does. I guess it must be a good feeling. I never felt such a feeling and I fear there will be no possibility to feel it in the future.

@Vikrant_Camberleykar: Of course I can help you to translate "Chel-sea of Blue" or any other football song you like. Perhaps it is too much OT here, so you can send me the text to lilli2505@web.de

Posted by: Eisvogel at May 22, 2006 6:46 AM

Arjun wrote: India has the largest population of Persians...

Wrong. You are mistaking "Parsi" which is the name you gave to followers of Zoroastrian religion, with "Persian" which is an ethnic and language group.

There are 70,000 Zoroastrian (Parsi) in India, and about 20,000 in Iran. However, there are 40,000,000 "Persians" living in Iran, following various religions including Islam, Judaism and Bahaism.

Vikrant, of course Indians and Iranians are both from the same race. One just has to look at facial features as well as language to realise that.

Posted by: SeenathePersian at May 22, 2006 11:57 AM

Interested.

You notice they also said they would arrest any England fan singing the Dam-Busters song, slightly odd considering teh Dam-busters actually helped bring an end to the war.

Posted by: DaveMate at May 22, 2006 12:01 PM

What those neo-Nazis don't realize is that if the Muslims ever gained control of Germany or anywhere, they'd subjugate the neo-Nazis(who are not Muslims) along with everyone else.

Posted by: corli at May 22, 2006 7:10 PM

Vikrant & Arjun

On the theory of Aryan migration, it's a mistake to assume that either Max Mueller or the claimants of Aryans being native are the ultimate authority on this topic. From my high school history, I recall there being around 5 theories on this topic - from the Aryans being native to the Indo-Gangetic plains to Bal Gandahar Tilak's Aryans originating from the Anctarctic. (This was based on some reference in the Vedas to several months passing before the sun set - although one could argue that the Arctic would be closer, since India is entirely in the Northern Hemisphere.)

While this may seem off-topic, it's related to the question of Jihad in the following way. This claim about the Aryans being native Indians has been championed by the Hindutva parties, as though that is a pre-requisite for legitimacy of Aryans living in India, but not Muslims. But this is a false assertion. Even if one were to assume that the Aryans did invade India from outside and wage war against the Dravidians (like several invaders in several countries), that does not make Aryans the moral equivalents to Muslims. After all, even if the Aryans were fighting a war of supremacy in India, they did not carry on a perpetual war against the Dravidians the way Muslims do against Infidels even in India today. For instance, somewhere in Karnataka, there is a temple dedicated to Ravana, which is probably a Dravidian shrine to the Rakshasha ruler, but you don't see Northern Indian or Hindutva parties baying for its demolition. Similarly, despite the record of the pre-Islamic Hindu empires in India - whether Aryan or Draviadian - had been one of tolerance, as witnessed by the patronage of Buddhism and Jainism in several kingdoms. It's well known that it was the Muslim invaders that destroyed India's Buddhist heritage.

Also, let's say the Aryans did originate in Central Asia. What is that supposed to imply - that India's entire Aryan population should move to Kazakhstan? This is not analogous to those in this site who want Muslims to be exiled back to dar ul Islam. For one, Indian Aryans aren't busy promoting the agenda of Aryan supremacy even within India, let alone outside. You don't have Indians terrorizing Western societies the way Muslims do, even though we unfortunately have our share of multi-culturalists. Therefore, the assumption that if the Aryans came from somewhere outside India, the same standards as apply to Muslims ought to apply to them is a falacious argument.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 23, 2006 12:06 AM

Seena, Vikrant,
We are not talking genetics. ANYTHING that is muslim, I do not count as Persian. I deem Persians only those who pursue their old faith.

Infidel Pride,
Assuming that there was an Aryan invasion on the Dravidians, there should be a vast difference of culture between them both. A difference of language. But Dravidians speak Sanskrit, like Aryans. And we both follow the 4 Vedas. Such homogenity is not possible if there was an "invasion". The Dravidians also follow the same Jyotish Shastra for astrology, and Charak Samhita and Sushrutu Samhita for medicine. And a temple of Ravana is in M.P., too. We shall seek the truth about this, but, first we fight this war.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 23, 2006 4:35 AM

Arjun

Seena is right. In the past, I used to use the term "Persian" to describe pre-Islamic Iran. However, as is pointed out, Iran didn't change that name until 1935; besides, 50% of Iran's population is ethnically Persian (as opposed to the remainder that are Azeri, Kurd and Baluchi - none of which are the same ethnic group).

I agree - one day we may get to the bottom of all this, but the Jihad on Islam comes first.

Seena

You mention that 20K Persians follow Zoroastrianism, but while that is official, I once had an Iranian colleague (an athiest) who told me that the number of apostates from Islam to Zoroastrianism are really in the order of 100K. I guess one wouldn't really know until Islamic rule in Iran ends.

Also, any idea whether Zoroastrians use the Arabic script in their Dari (not the Afghan Dari) like the rest of Iran - another gift from the Islamic conquerers that has also plagued Urdu, Pakistani regional languages, and Turkish as well until Kemal replaced it with Roman?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 23, 2006 10:15 AM