They need to open up their cells in my state of Minnesota. Guaranteed the liberals up here would be falling over themselves to show concern and support for these unjustly maligned young men.

Posted by: Bacon-I Will Miss Thee at June 22, 2006 8:36 PM

Did that report actually state "jihadist ideology" or are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Posted by: Foehammer at June 22, 2006 8:41 PM

The misunderstanding is spreading!
(heavy sarcasm)

Posted by: kevin at June 22, 2006 8:44 PM

Apparently the latest on this story is that they where planning to try and blow up the Sears Tower.

Posted by: Mackie at June 22, 2006 8:58 PM

If a few million more "real" Muslims were admitted to the United States, they would be able to show their Black Muslim brothers how to hew to the "straight path." The fact that there are so few Arabs, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Afghans, Chechans, Somalis, Iranians, and other representatives of high Islamic civilization in the United States is proof of American Islamophobia.

Luckily for us, both Presidente al-Bush and our elite representatives in Washington (senators, congressmen, and lobyists) favor much increased Muslim immigration. Twenty or thirty million more Muslims should lead to true multiculturism in America.

Don't worry, be happy!

Islam is a religion of peace!

Viva El Presidente Jorge bin Jorge al-Bush!

Allahu akbar!

Posted by: Norseman at June 22, 2006 9:36 PM

Good grief, we have these Muslim sleeper cells like we have those crazy mosquettos in the late, early summer months. These recent arrests should send a message that we Americans have to be on our guard. Heard this tonight on Fox News a few minutes ago.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 22, 2006 9:37 PM

Good grief, we have these Muslim sleeper cells like we have those crazy mosquettos in the late, early summer months.

REALLY.
Hey, I'm trying to find ONLINE a list I saw a while back that showed locations of known terror groups (i.e. Islamic Jihad, Hamas, AQ, etc.) in the US. It's well-documented all over the place that these groups, as well as unaffiliated groups like the one in Miami (supposedly) is, so it's kind of ridiculous that the idiotic "mainstream" media is acting like homegrown terror is something new. It's only news that this group's been CAUGHT, not that they exist.

Posted by: Beth at June 22, 2006 9:52 PM

Hmmmm...... wonder how many of them are named Mohammed and if a copy of the Quran was found on site?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at June 22, 2006 9:56 PM

A U.S. counterterrorism official said 17 suspects in Canada are an example of a type of group that authorities have been concerned about for some time: self-organized, ad hoc cells of homegrown extremists, a development first seen in Britain....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So now the feds have finally wised up and realized that islamic terror is the solely cuased by al queda.

one of the islamic terrorist groups is going to succeed and then what will happen?????????

i hear the excuses now form the prez, the left and liberals................

from what i have read, the prime taraget for a wmd or nuke is wash dc..... think this will wake up wash dc????

Posted by: Texican at June 22, 2006 10:00 PM

Correction:

So now the feds have finally wised up and realized that islamic terror is not solely caused by al queda.

Posted by: Texican at June 22, 2006 10:01 PM

I think we are reaching a breaking point. My patient has worn very thin with this adminstration. I am thankful for the law enforcement effort - very thankful, but I want more done against these monsters. This is ridiculous.

Good work to the hard working law enforcement agents.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at June 22, 2006 10:04 PM

Witnesses say that some of the black suspects of which 5 of them are American citizens have told neighbors that they where strengthening themselves for Islam and apparently one suspect said that he had taken the oath for Al-Qaeda. One of the suspects is from Haiti.

Posted by: Mackie at June 22, 2006 10:08 PM

From Yahoo news: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060623/ap_on_re_us/terrorism_investigation

"As part of the raids related to the arrests, FBI agents swarmed a warehouse in Miami's Liberty City area, using a blowtorch to take off a metal door. One neighbor said the suspects had been sleeping in the warehouse while running what seemed to be a "military boot camp."
Residents living near the warehouse said the men taken into custody described themselves as Muslims and had tried to recruit young people to join their apparently militaristic group.
The men slept in the warehouse, said Tashawn Rose, 29. "They would come out late at night and exercise. It seemed like a military boot camp that they were working on there. They would come out and stand guard."
She talked to one of the men about a month ago: "They seemed brainwashed. They said they had given their lives to Allah."
Rose said the men tried to recruit her younger brother and nephew for a karate class. "It was weird," she said.

No doubt they are Muslim Boy Scouts and this is all just a misunderstanding.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at June 22, 2006 10:09 PM

The group was apparently infiltrated by a FBI agent officer who posed as Islamic radical.

Posted by: Mackie at June 22, 2006 10:11 PM

UK Muslim Fundamentalists to Hold Conference on 7/7 Anniversary

Ummah News Links

Posted by: ummahnewslinks at June 22, 2006 10:11 PM

Sears tower Huh well I guess they didn't here about the N.Korean missel??

Or maybe they were pissed about the new Bionic Wrench?

Hey nors what you think?

After all you is on the left coast???

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MISSILE_MOOD?SITE=WABCAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
June 22, 2006
Many Americans in Missile Range Just Shrug
By MARY PEMBERTON
Associated Press Writer

But for most, a missile was too distant, too unlikely a threat to interrupt their daily lives
"A better question is when's the next earthquake," Ernie De Matteis said as he flipped through a newspaper in San Francisco.

HELL I'D BE TOO WITH THEM LETTING ALL THEM MULSUMS SETTLE THERE??

WHAT WAS THAT I CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU AND BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT LAST TIME I CKED THE MULSUMS KEEP PISSEN ON THE JEWS ??

Me I think it was just another druggie bust happens all the time seams that like the rico act when you can't get them on 1 thing and we know that they are into lots of lawless stuff??

Love the Book-em Dano!!

any body hear about the dimmicrat? Murtha[tratior] so he did try to do a deal with mulsums years ago??

I heard the L.A.Times had something about some shadie deals no wonder he with drue his bid for Nancy's P.s post??

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15690
Murtha's Second Act

Murtha got into politics in 1968 as a 36-year-old highly decorated Marine and in 1974 became the first Vietnam War veteran elected to Congress. By 1980, Murtha was a lieutenant of Speaker Thomas P. (Tip) O'Neill and was moving to the top in the House when the FBI named him as one of eight members of Congress videotaped being offered bribes by a phony Arab sheik.
The other seven congressional targets took cash and were convicted in federal court. The videotape showed Murtha declining to take cash but expressing interest in further negotiations, while bragging about his political influence. Murtha testified against the popular Rep. Frank Thompson in the Abscam case, which created lifelong enemies in the Democratic cloakroom. The House Ethics Committee exonerated Murtha of misconduct charges by a largely party-line vote, after which the committee's special counsel resigned in protest.

I DON’T USELY READ HIM BUT WHAT THE HELL A PHONY ARAB AN ALL!!

THE GIFTS JUST KEEP COMING!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
http://humor.beecy.net/menwomen/womansong/

Posted by: Catherine at June 22, 2006 10:17 PM

"Good grief, we have these Muslim sleeper cells like we have those crazy mosquettos in the late, early summer months. These recent arrests should send a message that we Americans have to be on our guard. Heard this tonight on Fox News a few minutes ago."

Correction to one part of the sentence. It should say late spring, early summer.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 22, 2006 10:39 PM

Beth,

"REALLY.
Hey, I'm trying to find ONLINE a list I saw a while back that showed locations of known terror groups (i.e. Islamic Jihad, Hamas, AQ, etc.) in the US. It's well-documented all over the place that these groups, as well as unaffiliated groups like the one in Miami (supposedly) is, so it's kind of ridiculous that the idiotic "mainstream" media is acting like homegrown terror is something new. It's only news that this group's been CAUGHT, not that they exist."

I think I know what type of map that you are talking about. I have seen a picture of it over at "Freerepublic.com" at one time. If you have the chance, look for it.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 22, 2006 10:42 PM

Thank you law enforcement folks, job well done.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 22, 2006 10:43 PM

Michelle Malkin foudn this gem:

INNOCENT (JOHNNY TALIBAN )

THIS LONG ARTICLE IS UNIMAGINABLY APOLOGETIC! IT IS THE VILEST WRITING I HAVE READ. Please read it!

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2006/060611_mfe_July_06_Innocent_1.html

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at June 22, 2006 10:48 PM

It is not surprising they keep getting caught, we are onto them. More resources are tracking them. It is easy to tell which ones are the terrorists. It is the ones who are breathing. They may be too cowardly to fight the jihad personally but turning a blind eye to the more radical ones is passive support. Passive support is still support.

Posted by: Ronin at June 22, 2006 10:59 PM

i'll bet this is *not* a Black Muslim group. I think it's a Jamaat al Fuqra cell, just like the ones scattered across the country.

BTW, the MSM quickly removed "African American" identity tags on these guys. They're just "US citizens."

Here's the Baron's screen cap before the change over:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/06/down-memory-hole.html

And Beth, while we don't have the whole shebang, we do have a lot of material on Jamaat al Fuqra, which recruits from prisons for its members. You can see the links on the sidebar on our blog under the title "JAMAAT AL FUQRA"...

Posted by: Dymphna at June 22, 2006 11:00 PM

http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/usa-terror-cells.htm

Posted by: Carolyn2 at June 22, 2006 11:11 PM

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law......We proclaim ourselves as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom wherever it continues to exist in the world. But we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

Edmund R Murrow on the CBS program, ‘See It Now’, on 9th March, 1954

Murrow, of course was referring to "Tail Gunner Joe" McCarthy and his witchhunt against Communism. Appears some people here want to return to those good old days in their display of bigotry and prejudice.

Posted by: John Howard at June 22, 2006 11:25 PM

Assuming these are black converts to Islam, one wonders how much longer the American government intends to ignore the campaign of Da'wa directed at such a target, how much longer black churches will have to go without official encouragement and money to spread the word about Islam, beginning with the role of slavery -- slavery as an institution, from the Mamelukes on horseback to the domestic slaves, the castrated black Africans, only 10% of whom, according to Jan Hogedoorn ("The Hideous Trade") survived their surgery at the point of capture, to be taken by slave coffle and then sometimes by dhow, often via Zanzibar and Pemba, thence to Muscat, then on to the slave markets of Jiddah and Cairo, Damascus and Baghdad, Algiers and Constaninople, and even Smyrna. Slavery is part of Islam, and cannot be abandoned, as a leading Saudi cleric reminded his audience recently, because it was practiced by Muhammad. It is in the Qur'an. End of story. Thus no Muslim William Wilberforce. No Muslim abolitionists. Wherever the Arab slave trade was stopped, it was stopped by Europeans, the British in the Gulf, the French in North Africa.

But Arab enslavement of blacks continues whereever it can: in Sudan, in Mali, and even, according to Ayaan Hirsi Ali (how about making a movie, distributed all over the country and put also on DVD's for church audiences, with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, discussing the history of the Arab slave trade in black Africa. That would make sense. That is what an American government, or an American foundation if the government won't do it, should come up, but for some reason simply can't think of the obvious.

Maddening.

Posted by: Hugh at June 22, 2006 11:28 PM

Hugh and others,

It would be a mistake to think that black converts (or ANY Western converts) to Islam are making educated or even minimally rational decisions.

We are talking about people who have addictive personalities, sociopathic personalities, neurotic dysfunctions in their personal lives to say the very least. Islam appears to them as either a way for them to channel their anger and resentments, or as a radical rejection of all of their background and heritage as a slap in the face of the world they feel did not understand them. In either case, the "submission" to "Allah" comes to them as a tremendous emotional release from their own role in crafting their lives up to that point.

Information about Islamic slaving will be written off as white propaganda against colored brothers, and only convince them of how right they are in their new "truth".

Islamic belief is (always has been) a form of SCHIZOPHRENIA, requiring a radical disconnect between the world as a person knows it is, and the world as Islam tells them it is. Most Moslems surely know this and live a sort of double-life.

Puritans in such a context have a field day.

D. Ox
http://thomistic.blogspot.com

Posted by: Dumb Ox at June 22, 2006 11:45 PM

Yes, effective law enforcement action against criminals who want to kill you is just SO inconsiderate.

If we were proper sheep, we'd just bare our throat to the knife.

Posted by: treehugger at June 22, 2006 11:48 PM

And since John Howard likes Wikipedia...

The release of the VENONA transcripts and material from Eastern bloc intelligence archives after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, added more material for the discussion of what had been going on during the 1950s.

****The Soviet records show that the general contention that Communist spies had infiltrated the federal government was true.*****

The American Communist Party (CPUSA) had senior members in the pay of the Soviet Union. Communist spies included Julius Rosenberg and Theodore Hall, who gave nuclear secrets to the Soviets, and Harry Dexter White, who was the founding head of the International Monetary Fund. Other data have shown that Western anti-communists grossly overestimated the actual capacity of the Soviets to do harm through military and economic means—long believing, for example, that Soviet nuclear missile technology was vastly superior to that of the U.S., and also grossly overestimating other measures of Soviet strength such as annual GNP.

Posted by: treehugger at June 22, 2006 11:54 PM

What are Harry Dexter White and Theodore Hall (one more crazed Harvard man who wanted "victory today") doing at this thread? Is the point something about Communist infiltration being akin to campaigns of Da'wa? And why is the International Monetary Fund included, or are we treading here on Lyndon Larouchesque "Trilateral Commission" conspiracy nuttiness Or is this, perhaps, an oblique comment with the obliquity far beyond our simple-minded ken?

Need to know, before the problem is simply made to disappear in another way.

Posted by: Hugh at June 23, 2006 12:01 AM

Another nail in the false ideology of islam as the religion of peace.

As I listened to the talk shows on the radio today one after another of the callers dared to speak the truth. The horrendous beheading and torture of the solders in Iraq has done several things, expose the dihimmi left and remind us of the of barbarity of the Jihad and Da'wa.

But let me say that in attacking America, Islam will find we have the guts and will to survive! They dare to underestimate our will to fight and our power to resist.

You will not scare or subdue the American people, for every act of terror will only serve to fortify our will.

The day that they actually carry out another attack will be the day that those Muslims that hate America will bear the full force of our wrath.

And in the event of some massive and devastating WMD attack, on the peaceful peoples of the world, I fear that the massive retribution will be so harsh as to sweep away any vestiges of Islam. This evil spirit and scourge of mankind will be put back into the Arabian desert from whence it came, to do die from it's owe weight of crushing 7th century ignorance.

Posted by: El Cid at June 23, 2006 12:22 AM

Some reporter on the Anderson Cooper 360 show stated that the terror suspects belonged to a “Masonic” group of some sort.

No one bothered to correct him.

Every one was busy convincing each other that the threat was over and there was no evidence that they were connected to Al Qaeda.

Fools all…

Posted by: panos at June 23, 2006 12:27 AM

Oh, now I see. It was meant as a reply to someone else, making the point that whatever one thinks of Edward R. Murrow (I think he was wonderful), there were real Communist sympathizers and Soviet spies, among whom was Theodore Hall and othes (where is the name "Alger Hiss" -- for surely he stood out in the VENONA file, did he not?). Nothing Lyndon-Larouchesque or otherwise crazy about it.

Of course, the problem is much larger than that of terrorists (the equivalent of those Soviet spies). The problem is prompted by the slippery definition of "moderate" Muslim -- as opposed to the other kind, the ones who take their Islam just a little too seriously, the "immoderate" Muslims. And the more one studies not only the texts but the history of Islam, the graver and more intractable the problem seems, except insofar as local ataturks can constrain Islam, and do so long enough for a significant percentage of the population to become secularists. The example of Turkey heartens, and also warns -- it takes a long time, there is a constant danger of backsliding.

And in the meantime, there is no reason why we Infidels need endure in our own lands, the Bilad al-kufr (as Muslims themselves define it), a condition of much greater unpleasantness, expense, and physical insecurity, because of the large-scale presence of those who do appear to agree (we have no way of distinguishing the True Believer from the Less True, and there is always the "My Son the Fanatic" problem to worry about)with the tenets and the attitudes and the atmospherics express or implied, of Islam.

.

Posted by: Hugh at June 23, 2006 12:29 AM

John Howard wrote:

"Murrow, of course was referring to "Tail Gunner Joe" McCarthy and his witchhunt against Communism. Appears some people here want to return to those good old days in their display of bigotry and prejudice."

So, self-preservation and awareness are called bigotry and prejudice in the mosques now?

How quaint.

Get the hell out of my country.

Posted by: Foehammer at June 23, 2006 12:30 AM

Phew-wipes forhead.

For a minute there I thought I was on my way to the Headmasters office.

Sign me....Relieved Poster

Posted by: treehugger at June 23, 2006 1:05 AM

Praise of Murrow should not be misconstrued as an endorsement of the easy invocation of the word "McCarthyism" to vilify those who are nothing like McCarthy, but who are able to recognize a totalitarian belief-system whose adherents, thanks to unmerited oil wealth (some $10 trillion, as the result of an accident of geology, since 1973 -- the largest transfer of wealth in human history), their so-far undistrubed settlement within the very lands that Islam teaches them to regard as enemy lines, and their access to, and exploitation of, advances in Western technology (including audiocassettes, videocassettes, satellite television), used by Khomeini in 1979 from Neauphle-le-Chateau, and by assorted terorist groups (the decapitations of Michael Berg and Daniel Pearl apparently proving particularly inspiring to Muslim viewers). There was a real thing, called "McCarthyism." There was also a real thing, those who consistently pooh-poohed or denied altogether that the Soviet Union was evil, that its Western agents and apologists were evil, and that some of them rose high.

Those who have not yet read Ibn Warraq's essay on Islam and Fascism (based on applying the fourteen criteria that define, in Umberto Eco's view, the phenomenon of Fascism) might wish to do so before throwing "Tailgunner Joe" around as a conversation-stopper.

It is not the 1950s that come most swimmingly to mind. It is those who mocked the "alarmists" from 1933 on -- the ones who worried about Adolf Hitler, and the rest of his retinue, and who took seriously what he wrote, what he said, and what he did -- for it was all of a piece.

There are many defectors from Islam in the West: Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Azam Kamguian, Irfan Khawaja, and thousands more, out of the tens or hundreds of thousands of such defectors (many afraid, lying low, calling themselves "cultural" Muslims by which they display a residual connection but distance themselves, so they hope, sufficiently from what is so awfully contained -- and not as "advice" but as "command" (as someone on another thread concluded about the Qur'an -- he left the Hadith and the Sira out of his consideration entirely).

They should be listened to. See if they think it is all just a matter of crazed Americans, indulging in an orgy of "McCarthyism." Or ask some Hindus living or fleeing from Bangladesh, or Buddhist monks in southern Thailand, or Christians in Nigeria or the Sudan or the Moluccas. Ask them if it is all a figment of some crazed and "bigoted" McCarthyites, or if there just might be something to the alarm, and the tocsin-sounding. Perhaps that alarm comes not from rabid McCarthyism, but from knowledgge, knowledge of many passages in the Qur'an, stories in the Hadith, and details in the life of that Perfect Man, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, Muhammd himself -- whose words and acts are not exactly something that would allay Infidel fears. And if, in addition to that study of those texts, Infidels in many different countries, of many different backgrounds (from Denmark to Thailand, from India to Egypt, from France to the Philippines, from the Sudan to Spain) all had noticed the same kind of problems with Muslim populations, noticed the loyalty owed to the umma but not to Infidels or to the Infidel nation-state, noticed as well the hostility ill-concealed by occasional forced and oily affability, and then had begun to study the 1350-year history of Jihad-conquest of many different non-Muslim peoples, and the similarity in the subjugation that they endured, invocation of the late unlamented senator from Wisconsin (for god's sake, he was driven from power more than half-a-century ago, in large part by the U.S. Army, President Eisenhower, and Boston lawyer Joseph Welch, and the idea that there is some kind of witch-hunt spirit permanently abroad in this land is a stupid caricature) simply will not do. Neither Oriana Fallaci, nor Ayaan Hirsi Ali, nor Pim Fortuyn, nor Fogh Rasmussen, nor Ibn Warraq, quite fit the template you are attempting to impose. Not in their backgrounds, not in their mental formation, not in what they have expressed support for over many decades, not in anything at all, except an unwillingness to accept the idea that the advanced societies, those that elevate the individual and not the collective that characterizes Islam, with its Total Regulation of LIfe and Complete Explanation of the Universe, so insistently does, and treats anyone born into Islam who dares to try to leave it as a deserter from the army of Islam, to be punished as deserters are punished.

How, why, wherefore anyone sensible could continue to mislead himself, or attempt to mislead others, about the nature and menace of the ideology of Islam, amazes. But then, who wants to face unpleasantness, or see an entire mental edifice -- for it is apparently not only George Bush who believes that "we all wnat the same thing" and any divisions are merely matters of misunderstanding, that can be cleared up, or matters of emphasis, that after some changes (a "reformation" in Islam to be conducted within Infidel societies -- yes, we are to take risks with large numbers of Muslims in our midst because, you see, they are the greta hope, they are the ones who in a carefully unexplained way will "reform" Islam as it cannot be in Dar al-Islam) will melt away, and all manner of things shall be well. It only requires a little patience by those nervous Infidels, those "McCarthyites," those "bigots."

I can believe six impossible things before breakfast. But not that.

Posted by: Hugh at June 23, 2006 1:09 AM

Hugh, please don't delete Treehugger's comment. John Howard had drawn a parallel between our attribution of jihadist ideology to islam's practitioners and McCarthy's attribution of subversion to communist sympathizers. Howard's unstated premise was that McCarthy was wrongly prejudiced, and, therefore, anti-jihadists are similarly wrongly prejudiced.

Treehugger was making the point that McCarthy was eventually proven right. There were communist spies everywhere. In fact, it turned out that there were so many in some branches of government that word went out from the Soviet Union to suspend any further recruitment. the evidence turned up in Russian archives after the fall of the Soviet Union.

I think you would agree that there are plenty of muslims of questionably loyalty (loyalty to the United States) working in government jobs right now. Our government is basically forced to hire them due to anti-discrimination laws and regulations. We have learned little.

Thanks.

Posted by: texan at June 23, 2006 1:13 AM

Hugh, I missed your last post before submitting my plea. I see you were already way ahead.

Posted by: texan at June 23, 2006 1:18 AM

The reason why I used the Murrow quote was to alert you to the possibility that some people here simply ascribe to all Muslims the same beliefs and attitudes. McCarthy used a similar scattergun approach, anything of the left was Communist. Anybody who had a smell of socialism about him, was declared an enemy of the state and treated in the most dispicable way. The same is being done to Muslims. There is no effort on the part of some to make any differentiation between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims. Moreover, there is no attempt to differentiate between Arabic Islamic culture and the Islamic culture of other regions/nations. Islam is not monolithic. Something many here refuse to undersand it would seem.

Posted by: John Howard at June 23, 2006 1:36 AM

Because Islam is the defining factor in what is creating the war against my culture, my people, my nation and our allies, I have every right to ignore any artificial responsibilities "John Howard" or anyone else might try to put upon me when it comes to differentiating between a "moderate" Muslim and a "radical" Muslim. Primarly I have no such responsibility because that responsibility lies only with the Muslims themselves!

No, sorry, I will not even go near that road. This is war. Jihadis think they are the only ones around that can be focused on a goal? I am showing you that is not the case.

Remove Islam from the shores of North America and then I'll talk about who the "nice" Muslims are and who the "bad" Muslims are. When the Muslims themselves are all at a good safe distance of 3,000 plus miles from the United States and Canada, I'll chirp like a canary about the rainbow of color that is Islam.

Until that time, expect no quarter and I shall not ask for any.

Posted by: Foehammer at June 23, 2006 1:58 AM

Dumb Ox -

I concur with your assessment of why certain personalities are attracted to Islam. I have often said that Mo was a schizophrenic and probably a drug addict. Anyone who spent as much time "alone" as he reportedly did -- in some remote cave -- could NOT come out sane.

MO was obviously unhappy with his life, unhappy with his marriage, so he leaves his wife, and sets his sights on a dusty old cave; but before he heads for greener pastures, he stops by the local drug dealer for some opium, pot and other hallucinogens so he can achieve the "enlightened state of mind" that he's become so famous for.

Then he does what most addicts do -- he finds himself homeless -- and then he probably started talking to himself along with those "visions" of his.

How can anyone in their right mind consider this "Mo" guy a prophet of God? Let me think, perhaps someone who ISN'T IN THEIR RIGHT MIND!

Posted by: champ at June 23, 2006 2:09 AM

Foehammer

Well said. Given the Islamic art of taqiyya, which this cretin Howard seems completely ignorant of, it's a completely wasteful exercise trying to distinguish the two. It's like trying to distinguish between a Communist and a Socialist, something that he seems to think of as worthy, given his views on McCarthyism.

The useful idiot on demo

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 23, 2006 2:16 AM

"The reason why I used the Murrow quote was to alert you to the possibility that some people here simply ascribe to all Muslims the same beliefs and attitudes. McCarthy used a similar scattergun approach, anything of the left was Communist. Anybody who had a smell of socialism about him, was declared an enemy of the state and treated in the most dispicable [sic] way. The same is being done to Muslims. There is no effort on the part of some to make any differentiation between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims. Moreover, there is no attempt to differentiate between Arabic Islamic culture and the Islamic culture of other regions/nations. Islam is not monolithic. Something many here refuse to undersand it would seem."
-- from a posting above

1. Your description of McCazrthy, awful as he was, makes him seem absurdly simple-minded, and he wasn't; he had a low cunning which is what made him dangerous. It is flatly unture that "anyone who had a smell of socialism about him" was "declared an enemy of the state" and was "treated in the most despicable way." No. He did a lot of damage, but your hysterical recreatopn -- I know that period very well, I knew people who had lost their university jobs or were in danger of doong so, I have watched carefully the Army-McCarthy hearings. You don't know what you are talking about. The phrase "enemy of the state" is right out of either Andrey Vyshinsky or the Nazis; it was not a phrase ever used in America. Nor was everyone who had the "smell of socialism" about him at risk. In 1948 Henry Wallace got millions of votes, and neither his followers, nor those of Eugene V. Debs, were declared "enemies of the state." McCarthy was awful; why give ammunition to those who defend him by misstating what he did, and what that period was all about?

2) You tell us again and again, in various ways, that "Islam is not monolithic." Yes, we know. But we also know that the same passages in the same Qur'an, the Uncreated and Immutable Qur'an, the one dictated by Gabriel and taken down by an Arab amanuensis, are those which all Muslims read as the Word of God. And the Hadith (why do you keep ignoring the Sunnah, which is at least as important, to many Muslims, as the Qur'an?), were long ago winnowed by the most authoritative muhaddithin, and have been ranked by them (e.g., Al-Bukhari and Muslim, as the two most authoritative of the Sahih Sittah, the six tippety-top ones). And what do those Hadith say about "Infidels" or "Jews" or "Christians" or "polytheists" or "jihad"? We can find, easily. It is all on-line. And we can find out as well what interpretive doctrines may exist -- in this case, that of "naskh" or "abrogation" -- which permits a reconciling of passages seemingly contradictory, which doctrine, alas, tells Believers that the earlier softer (so-called "Meccan") verses are cancelled, overruled (just as Plessy v. Ferguson is overruled by Brown v. Bd. of Education) by the much harsher, much more hostile and menacing later verses -- e.g. Sura 9. Are we to ignore the canonical texts of Islam because of local differences in food or dress or in the degree of syncretism (e.g. the marabouts of West Africa, or the syncretism of the much-persecuted "Anbangan" (Geertz's word) quasi-Muslims?

Not only are the texts the same, but when one examines, for example, the differences between the major sects -- Sunni and Shi'a and Ibadi -- one finds no difference in the topics that we must concern ourselves with. No difference in the necessity, the rightness, the duty of Jihad to spread Islam until obstacles to its dominance, all over the world, are removed, for Islam is to dominate and Muslims are to rule. That is right. That is just. That is in the nature of things. For all of us were born Muslims, and somehow were raised wrongly, so that when we become Musilms officially we do not "convert" but rather "revert" to Islam (for Western Infidel consumption, Muslims will also speak demurely now not of "reversion" but rather, nominally, of "New Muslims" -- use of the word "reverts" would raise awkward questions from Infidels that at this point Muslims would prefer not to answer.

And of course there are not only differences between Sunnis and Shi'a and Ibadi Muslims, but also in the role of a mystic approach -- that of Sufis, or those more recent sects deemed doubtful, by orthodox Muslims, such as the Ahmadiyyas (Qadianis), now forced in Pakistan to list themselves on official forms as non-Muslims, or the most interesting group, the followers of the Aga Khan, the Ismailis (remember those weigh-ins, when the Aga Khan would then be presented with his weight in diamonds from loyal followers -- the kind of thing that used to be shown on a Gaumont newsreel, with the plummy-voiced announcer from yesteryear: Time Marches On!). And furthermore, there are four schools of Jurisprudence in Sunni Islam -- Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and I forget the fourth because I'm having so much fun.

But here is the main point. They have differences -- for example, as to the kinds of hudud, or codes of punishment, to observe. They have differences based, for example, on whether or not Islam has been affected by, its edges worn down a bit by, the presence of a large number of non-Muslims. It is probably true to say that some Lebanese Muslims, because of the Christians, and some Indian Muslims, are less menacing in outlook then those of, say, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or the Sudan. But the teachings that we care about are those which are all about Infidels. And those teachings do not and have not changed.

Of course there are some Muslims who do not subscribe to those teachings. But how do we know who they are? Of the ones who claim to be "moderates," which ones are and which ones are feigning? Which ones are telling the truth, but may, for reasons having only to do with personal setbacks (it need not be some element of foreign policy, or of politics at all, to trigger a reaction and a return to the full Islam, the Islam which divides the world between Believer and Infidel), become the "immoderate" Muslim who so rightly alarms us? Think of Hanif Kuraishi's "My Son the Fanatic." Funny when it first came out, not so funny now. We can't take that risk. We shouldn't be expected to.

Besides, we have a duty to preserve or own legacy. We may all be rotten to the core. Many are. But we were handed certain things. Artifacts. Works of art. A tradition of free and skeptical inquiry that might yet allow us to survive. We have no right to simply throw over whatever was created by and for Western civilization, by people -- Spinoza and Hume, Michelangelo and Balthus, Jefferson and Lincoln and ten thousand others (just look at the index alone in Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence" and realize that those names are only a small fraction of those who created the West, and then compare that list with the usual Muslim dozen -- Avicenna, Averroes, Al-Razi, etc. For god's sake, look at the mental desert of Islam, the desertification every which way, the narrow channeling of artistic expression into Qur'anic calligraphy and architecture, with no sculpture, no painting of living creatures, hardly any music (certainly no equivalent to Western church music). Look at how the keepers of the belief-system of Islam discourage, and punish, the efforts of some at free and skeptical inquiry.

You may be willing to find solace in the obvious -- that Muslims are not prefabricated beings, identical in language, clohting, food, schools of Muslim jurisprudence, and so on. That is no consolation for me.
Because the Jihad duty remains the same, and the hostility -- inculcated by those Qur'an ic passages, those Hadith stories, that example furnished by Muhamamd. Andwhat do you make of the role of Muhammad, clearly the main figure in Islam, with 83% of the texts devoted to him, 17% to Allah?)? What do you make of the fact that he married a nine-year-old girl? What "context" would you like to put that in? Are you aware that virtually Khomeini's first act, when he came to power, was to lower the marriageable age of girls in Iran to nine? Do you know why? And what about the assassination of those who mocked Muhammad -- Asma bint Marwan, Abu Akaf? What about the beheading of the 600-900 bound prisoners of the Banu Qurayza? The attack on the inoffensive Jewish farmers, tilling their fields in the Khaybar Oasis? Or a hundred other grim details, of that Perfect Man, uswa hasana? What do you make of all that, since there are not various versions of Muhamamd which various communities of Muslims accept -- there is only one, as there is the same Qur'an, and the same authoritative collections of "authentic" Hadith?

Your point about "Islam is not monolithic" misses entirely our point. Islam, in everything that pertains to Infidels, is in fact remarkably "monolithic." And you can test this with the evidence of 1350years of Jihad conquest. No matter where that conquest took place, no matter whether those conquered were Christians (of all kinds), or Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Jains, or Confucians, or anything else in this sublunary world, the treatment meted out to those subjugated non-Muslims was always and everytwhee quite similar. Oh, a decent ruler, a ruler who was syncretistic, might make a difference. Akbar, for example. But why is gentle Akbar, who removed the Jizyah on Hindus and who no longer massacred them (some 60-70 million Hindus were massacred by Muslims, as you must know), not revered but rather ignored or reviled by Muslims -- precisely for his mildness? It is Aurangzeb and Mahmoud of Ghazni who are revered. And in Iran the Shah and his father tried to, and for a while succeeded, in elevating the status, or at least protecting, Jews and Christians -- a protection that is hardly to be seen now that the Shah is gone.

No. Islam is not monolithic. But when it comes to the attitudes toward Infidels, and the observable treatment of Infidels by Muslims, it is disturbingly monolithic enough.

And that is what we, the Infidels, are worried about. And we see no reason to risk our societies, our advances, our art and our science, and our everything, on the slender and entirely foundationless notion, that you presented at another thread, about some "reformation" that somehow -- how, exactly? -- will be achieved by Muslims living in, protected from retribution by other Muslims --- in the West.

The immutable and canonical texts, the 1350-year history of conquest and subjugation, and the observable behavior of so many Muslims in so many countries today, all tell us otherwise.

Sorry.

No can do.

Posted by: Hugh at June 23, 2006 2:21 AM

Two more points.

1) Postings here are unmoderated. If you have criticisms to make of this or that post, that should not be confused with the site itself. You need not "alert" anyone about what some posters may think. Those running the site, those putting up the articles culled from material sent in, are not moved in our presentation.

2) Perhaps you might like to visit other relevant sites. Along with all the Muslim sites, which must be seen to be believed (start with www.islam-online.com but don't stop there) here are others:

www.dhimmitude.org (scholarly)
www.secularislam.org (former Muslims)
www.faithfreedom.org (former Muslims)

And then there are all kinds of books. There are Spencer's: "Onward Muslim soldiers" and "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance" come to mind. There is Bostom's anthology of classic writing, by Western scholars on Islam and by celebrated Muslim theologians as well: "The Legacy of Jihad." Why not spend a week or two reading and assimilating this material. Other books, focussed on what is going on in Europe today, include Bruce Bawer's "While Europe Slept." A

There are the biographies of Muhammad: those of Sir William Muir, Arthur Jeffery, Tor Andrae, Maxine Rodinson.

Of works by former Muslims, Anwar Shaikh's "Islam--the Arab Religion" discusses the use of Islam as a natural vehicle for Arab cultural, linguistic, and political imperialism. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has a book devoted to the treatment of women. Ibn Warraq has a collection of testimonies by former Muslims -- "Leaving Islam." Touching, and piercing. And he also has written "Why I Am Not a Muslim," a book at long last being translated into all sorts of languages, and having an effect.

Possibly you will decide it is worth your time to read them.

Or not.

2)

Posted by: Hugh at June 23, 2006 2:32 AM

Well, that second to last posting was a keeper to my hard drive, Hugh.

Once again your knowledge off-the-cuff astounds.

Posted by: Foehammer at June 23, 2006 2:55 AM

The Muslims can call the Non-Dhimmis the "People of the Book 'em Dano". Then they can call their ACLU lawyer.

Posted by: Television at June 23, 2006 3:07 AM

Just a slight correction to Hugh's post:

"(the decapitations of Michael Berg and Daniel Pearl apparently proving particularly inspiring to Muslim viewers)."

While Michael Berg has lost his head, and this mindless Leftism of his must surely inspire any Muslim with half a brain, it was Nick Berg, his son, who was decapitated.

Posted by: Television at June 23, 2006 3:17 AM

I would hope this John Howard character really reads Hugh's excellent posts above and takes their recommendations to heart; but something tells me he won't.

Posted by: Television at June 23, 2006 3:28 AM

Hugh

That was one for the archives. The only thing I can think of adding is that if Howard visits the Islamic sites, like http://ummah.com/, http://www.islamonline.com/, et al, and doesn't get turned off by them, then any visits to the other sites you listed are really worthless, and he may as well revert. I've seen some of those sites - in fact, in the pre-9/11 world, the site taliban.com would lead one to ummah.com/taliban, where some employee of the al-Rashid trust (banned after 9/11 for its terror links) had a marathon rant of the taliban about all the infidel forces, particularly the Russians and Indians. At one level, it was funny to read, but for any newcomer, the fanaticism would have been revealing. Usually, the Muslim sites should do much more damage than sites like faithfreedom.org do.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 23, 2006 3:42 AM

Hugh

That was one for the archives. The only thing I can think of adding is that if Howard visits the Islamic sites, like http://ummah.com/ , http://www.islamonline.com/ , et al, and doesn't get turned off by them, then any visits to the other sites you listed are really worthless, and he may as well revert. I've seen some of those sites - in fact, in the pre-9/11 world, the site taliban.com would lead one to ummah.com/taliban, where some employee of the al-Rashid trust (banned after 9/11 for its terror links) had a marathon rant of the taliban about all the infidel forces, particularly the Russians and Indians. At one level, it was funny to read, but for any newcomer, the fanaticism would have been revealing. Usually, the Muslim sites should do much more damage than sites like faithfreedom.org do.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 23, 2006 3:43 AM

Did anyone here in the UK see the ITN report early this morning, where the female presenter went to great lengths to claim that the FBI hadn't actually found any physical evidence at the raided premises? All been a huge mistake then, eh? I mean, why the hell don't people like her just get their burkas on now and have done with it?

By the way, I've only just registered on this site, but I've been reading it for months. Hi Everyone!

Posted by: enemyofislam at June 23, 2006 4:39 AM

Howie the coward is a Mohammedan agit-prop and a troll of the worst kind:

Look at the other threads and see how much time is wasted on him:

9/11 and abortion clinic bombers are one and the same, the mormons practice of polygamy (which is forbidden by the way) is the same as the mohammedan harem, yes and there is always Tim McVeigh and all that 'oppression' against the cult of Islam, which is turning 'moderates' into guess what....? The KKK, Ireland, American Indians and Hiroshima & Nagasaki is all one baaaaad US and that makes a gooood Ummammah Islamiya....

One Mohammedan troll is like a clone of another, there are some who are more trollish than others, like 'Mohideen' or the laughable 'defender of Islam'- but Johnny Coward (apologies to John Howard the PM of Australia) posting here is a nuisance poster and should be eliminated from posting here...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at June 23, 2006 6:40 AM

Folks, I am not suprised that we have been seeing in the last few days an attack by a troll or a group of trolls on a internet jihadi mission. Expect more of this internet jihad as well as discovery of more homegrown jihadi terror groups cells. One way or another, this fight will end up on this American soil.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 23, 2006 10:44 AM

bigcatgirl-

Whenever the mask of Islamic terror slips and people in the infidel world start to catch the raw scent of its festering Koranic kraziness, the trolls are sent on a damage control mission to obfuscate with the 'usual suspect' arguments of "Red Indian were bombed in Hiroshima by Yankee Imperialists polygamist Mormons who approved of pedophilia in the Golden Tablets of the angel Moroni before torturing Abu Ghraib prisoners" with panties", ad absurdum.

A note for these Fellows of the Islamo-pology School of Permanent Taqiyya, - guys, we've read the Koran (and Hadiths). They are the Ur-Mein Kampf documents of a shameless thief, cruel homicidal warlord, calculating liar and 7th century megalomaniac.

No amount of moral relativism [smallpox blankets/ Nagasaki /poor mis-treated Palestinians] will ever excuse it or explain it away.

The goal of Islam is a global gulag of theocratic terror.

I choose freedom.

Islam is lame.

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 23, 2006 12:20 PM

Foehammer:

"Because Islam is the defining factor in what is creating the war against my culture, my people, my nation and our allies, I have every right to ignore any artificial responsibilities "John Howard" or anyone else might try to put upon me when it comes to differentiating between a "moderate" Muslim and a "radical" Muslim. Primarly I have no such responsibility because that responsibility lies only with the Muslims themselves!"

Brilliant response.

Posted by: ovidius_naso at June 23, 2006 12:33 PM

"Murrow, of course was referring to "Tail Gunner Joe" McCarthy and his witchhunt against Communism. Appears some people here want to return to those good old days in their display of bigotry and prejudice.

Posted by: John Howard at June 22, 2006 11:25 PM "

As far as a "witchhunt" against these islamofascist skum, do they need a chief inquisitor? Gaurantee I can get info from them if needed.

"It is not the 1950s that come most swimmingly to mind. It is those who mocked the "alarmists" from 1933 on -- the ones who worried about Adolf Hitler, and the rest of his retinue, and who took seriously what he wrote, what he said, and what he did -- for it was all of a piece. "

Hugh,I couldn't have put it better than this.

"I think you would agree that there are plenty of muslims of questionably loyalty (loyalty to the United States) working in government jobs right now. Our government is basically forced to hire them due to anti-discrimination laws and regulations. We have learned little."

Therein lies the problem, Texan. there needs to be some sort of loyalty test before one can serve in the government.

"He said they have intercepted MANY terrorist plots in the United States! MANY! By our own moslem "citizens"."

This is 100% correct according to some old Army friends of mine, all of them in intelligence.

All you folks calling for deportation and stripping of citizenship need to think for a moment. The Constitution proscribes what to do with these numbnuts. They are palpably guilty of Treason and should be executed.

BTW, see what you can do to help our Marines accused wrongly of murder
http://www.patriotdefensefund.com or buy Savage’s new book at http://www.michaelsavage.com and he’ll donate $5 for every book to them.

Duty, Honor, Country
(in THAT order)
Rowane

Posted by: Rowane at June 23, 2006 1:14 PM

I would hope this John Howard character really reads Hugh's excellent posts above and takes their recommendations to heart; but something tells me he won't. Posted by: Television

Johnny bin Howard seems obsessed by the absense of a rail link between Baghdad and Damascus, but has conviniently ignored Hugh's explanation in the other thread about how Islam is monolithic as far as their treatment of Infidels is concerned. Johnny, I've also pointed out how his being either a Leftist or a Mohammedan is very relevant to his deranged characterization of posters here. While I don't normally support banning posters, I think it would be appropriate in his case, since rather than discuss the merits of his contention that there are many "moderate" Muslims who don't support terror (he refuses to address the subject of their support for Jihad and ultimate Islamic supremacy), he has simply been hijacking every thread with his ad homimem attacks on other posters, and what's worse, distracting attention from the news items being discussed, be they the Miami plot on the Sears Tower, or the WMD's in Iraq. Since that's contrary to the spirit of Infidel posters here, it's time Hugh wields the axe. Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 23, 2006 7:15 PM