Israel is 'cancerous' ? Well, I sure hope this tumour spreads fast and wide, throughout the islamic lands. I pray for this to happen.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at July 17, 2006 7:05 AM

Dear Arjun,
here is the is the link to Churchill's book http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/9404 there is also another book about his fighting in the Sudan also in the collection. Afterwards go to http://www.openoffice.org/index.html here you can download a complete office program as good and windows office and completely free, copy and paste the book into Open Office Writer, format and click the PDF button (Adobe portatable document format) on the menu bar at the top and save. If you don't haven't Adobe reader go to http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html this is also free. These pdf are much smaller than anyother type of file and the reader has a search engine built in. This makes it much easier to search for quotes or words in large documents, a must if you are doing research. I apologise to readers of this site for breaking the thread, I hope you will forgive me. Anyway enjoy.

Posted by: Holger Dansker at July 17, 2006 7:22 AM

Dear Robert and co,

Many people think or believe that Lebanon is a Muslim nation. Please make a reference that Lebanon has a marginal christian majority
The following data is from wikipedia.

Parliament of Lebanon Seat Allocation Confession Before Taif After Taif
Maronite 30 34
Greek Orthodox 11 14
Greek Catholic 6 8
Armenian Orthodox 4 5
Armenian Catholic 1 1
Protestant 1 1
Other Christians 1 1
Total Christians 54 64
Sunni 20 27
Shi'a 19 27
Druze 6 8
Alawite 0 2
Total Muslims 45 64
TOTAL 99 128
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Like in Cyprus (see Annan Plan version 5), UN has forced the communities to form parliaments where the christian majority is equal with Muslim minority.
It was reported that IAF bombed also Christian villages.

I wonder what is the purpose of bombing civilians and destroying basic structures in a country that fights not to become another arabic country? Will it be better to help the native lebanese ( Christians, Alawites and Druzes) rathen than bombing and killing civilians (including foreigners like canadians and brazilians?). Christians are not happy by watching IAF bombing their country.
Israel gotta bomb the real terrorists and not civilians. 8 Canadians died last night! Something is wrong with Israelis tacticts. In this way they will not get the native lebanesians on their side. I am sure that the Lebanesians want to get rid of the arab intruders but not in this way.

Posted by: chris at July 17, 2006 7:29 AM

It is days like this and wonder this is real, are these people really like this. Have they really lost touch with reality, is this a form of mass hysteria is it possible for a country to go completely mad. They are Walter Mitties with an Atom bomb. I really do fear the worse, and what is even worse I can't do anything about it. We are being driven to a nuclear war by a group of deranged idiots who believe in a magic well, a Grimm fairytale indeed.

Posted by: Holger Dansker at July 17, 2006 7:31 AM

chris:

Check your history sources, most of the Middle east area was Christian until Muhammad created islam that was spread by the sword and still forces people to flee to Western Nations
to protect them from Shariah-Law based Islamic ruled Countries.
Jesus predicted a "False Prophet" will come and claim to speak for God and offer peace to the masses, but they would only bring war and suffering to the ignorant that get fooled by repeating of past messages form God and pawn them off as proof he is from our Father in heaven.

The God i believe in would never tell me that having sex with a child is a gift for my obediance to him, Muhammad was in his 40's when he raped a 9 year old girl he asserted was a willing partner sent by Allah to serve his lusts.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 17, 2006 7:50 AM

chris, in the real world, Israelis have to kill and destroy where the terrorist are, and unfortunately terrorists go among civilians, that is the saddest part of this. they do not fight with a country's uniform, but are pathetic cowards, if Lebanon would lead their country, they could of thrown out the terrorist,but that is hard work, and they rather just get along. Israel cannot survive just getting along, that is why you have the situation as it is now. as for the
Cdns caught there, they chose to go to a part of the world that is chaotic in the best of times, and l for one do not think we should be trying to stop Israel from killing the terrorist, but JoeStupid went over to Lebanon. when will be people be held accountable these days, so they make the wrong choices,, hey you want to vacation, lots of lovely places in other parts of the world, most Cdns have not seen most of their own country!

Posted by: Lulu at July 17, 2006 7:54 AM

I dont like christianity nor Islam, i am from greece and i prefer using science to explain phenomena like my ancestors did 2000 years.

Those areas were influenced from the greco-latin culture and enlighment till Christians and them Muslims came to destroy those fine civilizations including the one that had been developed in Lebanon. Christians respected somehow the local civilizations and took many of their elements but crusades ended up in pillage rather than protecting those areas from Muslims. Those areas ahve suffered from both Christian and Muslim barbarism.

So Why Israel and the free world do not fund Christians in Lebanon and Syria and Zoroastrians, Kurds and others in Iran? There are many Iranians that want to get rid of the Mullhas..why dont we help them?

Posted by: chris at July 17, 2006 8:09 AM

I wonder what is the purpose of bombing civilians and destroying basic structures in a country that fights not to become another arabic country?

Like many other young Westerners, Chris, you have let too much TV fantasyland and too many video games get to your rational brain in a biggish way.

If you allow a missile to be fired from your home and stay there to watch are you then a "civilian?"

If you take off the black mask and green headband you wear as a "fighter" are you now a "civilian?"

Do you really think that ANY pilot at 20K+ feet can read the passports of passengers in a van, determine the ages of people in a house and so on?

As someone once said, "war is hell."

It is too bad the Christians of Lebanon find themselves being punished along with Hizballah, but they are the ones that allowed terrorists into their government, that have ignored a SC resolution to disarm Hizballah for years and have continued to allow a terrorist group to control their southern border. Too late now to throw their hands in the air crying "we didn't have anything to do with this."

Posted by: gallopinggranny at July 17, 2006 8:17 AM

If Israel is a "cancer", it's a non-malignant one. Islam on the other hand is the type that is a fast killer.

Stupid muslims.

Posted by: freewoman at July 17, 2006 8:18 AM

Assalamau_LAikum all,

Given the damage to civilians in Israel, the Israelis can never feel safe again. Also they can no longer march into anybody else's soverign territory willy nilly.

I suspect that Hizbollox has misslies that can be reach any part of Israel.

The Israeils themseles will not go the whole mile to finish them off... HiZb was just firing pin pricks before, now they will become a festering sore...who knows what the next stage will be.

But the Israels cannot reply with nukes due to disproportinate response reasons.

Much as it saddens me...I think you are starting to see the end of the state of Israel...if they want to survive they will have to reloacte to the US.

50years is not a great shelf life....but what can you do? This is all very sad...particularily as it is the innocents that lose again.

Posted by: Naseem at July 17, 2006 8:20 AM

Naseem your self life is over according to islam, so why dont you throw youself on a bomb belt, and kill some real muslims.

Posted by: Lulu at July 17, 2006 8:23 AM

Also they can no longer march into anybody else's soverign territory willy nilly.
posted by Naseem................

Girl, did you just turn on your television?

Hezballah ATTACKED Israel.

Posted by: freewoman at July 17, 2006 8:25 AM

Lulu:

As the story unfolds about the Cdn's killed in Lebanon we discover these are just another example of Dual-Citizenship tourists that Arabs in canada are exploiting as a ruse to turn canada against Israel.

I no longer feel sorry for Immigrant from the Middle east that flee to Canada for 3 years to get Citizenship and then return to the area they claim forced then to seek safety and freedom in canada.

I have said in the past on this website that living in America for 10 years makes you no more an American than living in a garage for 10 years would make you a car.
This also applies to canada because the Khadr Klan along with thousands of bogus "Refugees" only want a passport and all the Social benefits of canada while they crap on our Flag and only wave it when they are about to be deported.
The Liberals catered to the Immigrant vote by reducing Citizenship time from 7 years to 5 and now down to 3 years for Immigrants and instant Citizenship for confirmed Refugee claims no mater the time limit, and the Refugee route is popular for terrorists with no marketable skills and usually try to have a baby with a legal Canadian to assure a stay in Canada with a Canadian child.

The citizenship has been reduced to a 3 year visit to canada or being born here by a non-Citizen sticking us with all the bills for after birth Social hand outs .

Posted by: ala-sux at July 17, 2006 8:26 AM

Israel has never felt safe naseem.You shouldn't either!

Thanks to you and your fellow mosbats!

That doesn't mean they are scared - it means they are prepared for the most murderous group of people in the world. Now who could that be, I wonder?

check the link.
http://www.free-lebanon.com/

You may be interested to know that many Lebanese are sick to death of being taken over by hizbolla aka iran and the idiot who rules it.Looks to me like hizbollah and Syria marched willy nilly into someone else's sovreign territory - what hippocrites you all are!
And you are all still doing it in Iraq!

Posted by: Gramfan at July 17, 2006 8:33 AM

Chris said: but crusades ended up in pillage rather than protecting those areas from Muslims. Those areas ahve suffered from both Christian and Muslim barbarism.

CHRISTIANS did no such thing. The Catholic organization was responsible for the crusades. The very same organization that burnt CHRISTIANS at the stake because they would not bow to the pope. A lot of things were done in the name of Christianity....but Christianity was hijacked by religions meant for power and control of people. This is not at all what the Church is about. By the way...the Church is not an organization. It is a body of believers and CHRIST is the head...not a pope.

As for Israel being a tumor. I hope and pray that Israel is able to do what the rest of the world is afraid to do. Rid the area of demonic worshiping terrorists. I do not believe that this would bring lasting peace - this is a spiritual war between those who love God and those who love the false god Allah. Allah has no son....therefore Islam denies Jesus as the son of God. If something is different...it's not the same. When the media says they are hollering "God is great". What they are actually hollering is Allah is great. If Allah was only an arab word for God....then why would it be used in ALL countries that practice Islam? Why wouldn't they say god in their own language? It is a proper name that is why. It is a false moon god. It is demonic.

Posted by: The Goobs at July 17, 2006 8:34 AM

Chris:

Sounds like you fled your homeland like many others do, you said you were from Greece and not that you are Greek.
I still live in the country i was born in and for the record many Christians don't like the faith either, they are expected to be selfless and nice to people that treat them like crap.
Jesus warned his followers that the people that hated him will also hate them .

Posted by: ala-sux at July 17, 2006 8:45 AM

ala-sux

Good points re immigration.

There are many Aussies in Lebanon like the Canadians you mention. They too hold dual citizenship. I think there are about 25,000 of them,although many live there permanently.
Now some of the young men really need to get back home before they get conscripted into the army.

Posted by: Gramfan at July 17, 2006 8:57 AM

@ Ala-sux I am Greek and i live in Greece. I consider myself Greek from mani and crete but not a christian.
@Goobs, i was refering to the 4th crusade (1204). Crusaders conquered and looted Constantinople. The result was that the Byzantine empire was too weak to fight the muslim intruders.

The change on the synthesis of the Libanese Parliament with the Taif agreement is a product of UN, Israel and USA sponsored negotiation. Taif agreement reduced the powers of the Maronite President and increased the powers of the Sunni Prime Minister. Do not expect from Christians and Maronites to react when they are not backed up from others.

The average Libanese is secular, well educated and they all speak 2-3 languages. They are not like their arab neighbours.

Posted by: chris at July 17, 2006 9:09 AM

"The change on the synthesis of the Libanese Parliament with the Taif agreement is a product of UN, Israel and USA sponsored negotiation. Taif agreement reduced the powers of the Maronite President and increased the powers of the Sunni Prime Minister. Do not expect from Christians and Maronites to react when they are not backed up from others."
-- from a posting above

This is nonsense. The Taif Agreement was not imposed by "Israel and USA." It was a fake agreement, by the Arabs, designed to force the Christians -- above all the Maronites -- to accept a loss in political power, while seeming to retain the earlier division (with the three top offices distributed according to confession), to accept Syrian domination (while the Americans and other Infidels may have thought that Syria would be leaving), and -- this is the most important point -- to force the Maronites to officially agree to a new definition of Lebanon as an "Arab country." To some that last may seem trivial, but the Maronites, who are Arabic-speaking, but not Arabs (unless you believe that they really were not in Lebanon before the Arabs arrived, bearing Islam as their unforgettable gift), realized what that meant for their future position. Lebanon, the historic redoubt of Christians, who of course, like non-Muslims elsewhere under Islam (such as the Hindus in Kashmir), gradually found their safest refuge in the mountainous areas, and tne name Mont Liban should give a hint as to the topography of much of Lebanon.

Israel had nothing to do with Taif. The Israelis had, have, and always will have a strong interest in the Christians of Lebanon possessing as much of their former power as possible. Nor was the Taif Agreement a product of the Americans, though David Satterfield of the State Department was present, and did nothing to prevent that clause forced down the throats of the Maronites about recognizing Lebanon as "Arab." No doubt neither he, nor the State Department, nor anyone in the executive branch, had any understanding of that fateful and malevolent clause.

But the Maronites did. And they still do.

Posted by: Hugh at July 17, 2006 9:41 AM

Re: Khamenei: Israel a "tumor," Hezbollah will never disarm

Hezbollah and other jihad groups attacking Israel are Portable-Iran-Syria and Israel will have to take out the head of the snake at some point. If Iran gets nukes, the whole region (all of it), will become a nuclear wasteland at some time in the future. Anyone who uses reason can look ahead and see the end of all this. I used to think the nuclear catastrophe would occur 50 years into the future-now I think 10 years is a more realistic guess.

Posted by: Frank at July 17, 2006 10:01 AM

"The war is no longer that of Lebanon. It is an Iranian war"

Keep talking Jumblat, I'll pop for the megaphone.

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 10:18 AM

Nassem, love the way you've picked up the liberal, and quite idiotic, meme, 'disproportionate response'. Who the h*ll writes your copy? You think Israel's response is disproportionate now, just wait until one of your muslim nutjobs, screaming Allahu Ackbar, does something stupid like a chemical/biological attack in the USA. Then you'll really have a 'disproportionate response' to cry over.

Besides, what wrong with killing terrorists, and their supporters? If people live with terrorists, and do nothing to stop them, then they are, unfortunately for them, fair game, no matter the level of response, proportional or otherwise.

Posted by: Rick at July 17, 2006 10:42 AM

Thoughts on 'Proportional Response': The concept is getting tired and, as evidenced by the bullets flying today, is not as good of a shield as it once was.

I'll predict a new scheme of 'Proportional Intent'. When WMDs are unleashed, and individuals are empowered to eliminate population centers, you can expect responses that won't be very compassionate.

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 10:56 AM

Chris, I have been watching CNN and BBC and Sky, in addition to Israeli tv stations, for the past few days. You could see on Sky, CNN and BBC broadcasts [Alessio Vinci and Kim Ghattas] that the downtown area of Beirut was untouched and undamaged. It was generally agreed that the focus of attacks was southern Beirut where the Hizbullah had/has its headquarters. There were attacks elsewhere, besides southern Beirut and south Lebanon. Israel attacked radar installations of the Lebanese army because the the Lebanese army radar station in Sidon or Tyre helped Hizbullah shoot a rocket at an Israeli ship on which 4 sailors were killed. A parking lot for trucks was hit in the Beirut port area. A secondary Hizbullah HQ in Baalbek was hit, plus homes of high Hizbullah officials there. One of the top Hizbullah mullahs was killed there. Israel also attacked tv transmitters of the Hizbullah's tv station, al-Manar. Now, trucks are suspected of carrying rockets for the Hizbullah and private houses were attacked because they were being used to store rockets. Israel has not been attacking non-Hizbullah targets. Bridges and roads, let us recall, can be used by enemy forces, as can airports and gasoline depots, etc.

The outcome of the Israeli attack on Hizbullah, if it is allowed to proceed long enough to finish the job, may be to so weaken [or, God Willing!, destroy] it that other communities in the country will be able to become ascendant over the Shi`a community which has been suffused almost entirely by the Hizbullah. This may bring the balance of power in the country back in the direction of what it was before 1976, although it will not and can not bring it about all the way.

Posted by: Eliyahu at July 17, 2006 10:58 AM

Zathras says "You must be daft to believe that ever giving ground to a Muslim army has EVER resulted in peace anywhere in 1400 years of history."

Zathras...this happens because for some pecular reason best known to themselves...they won't submit to Allah. I cannot understand it myself...here is a very disciplined way of living in peace...and they keep rejecting it...shocking!

Zathras I have no wish to see the Jewish state disappear. I think it shines like an ember showing failed (but much richer) muslim states what can be achieved. Equally I don't want to see Allah's chosen disappear in white Ash....actually if Israel was in the USA...putting the emotion aside for a minute...it would be quite a good solution.

Rick says "what wrong with killing terrorists, and their supporters?"

Nothing....nothing at all...if that's who you get. But I refuse to believe that all the peoples of Lebenon are their supporters...the innocents get killed ...and I hate that. But attacking with 500Kg bombs from the air will always kill innocents....and Isreal must stop this as well as knocking out the petrol facilities and electricity
plants...that's uncalled for.

You say "If peoples live with terrorists, and do nothing to stop them, then they are, unfortunately for them, fair game, no matter the level of response, proportional or otherwise".

Sorry I cannot accept this. I live in Lahore...and in places I can tell you there some right dodgy peoples here....but can I do something about it? Certainly I may be able to argue my point with them ....ONCE.

So I cannot agree that for example that I would be fair game. Just be grateful that you are not in this position. The only way to get away from this is join Islam....you be then be a friend and than at peace with all.

Lulu...take it easy there gal...I'm with you in spirit...but you cannot deny the obvious...the fact that Israel now is more vunerable perhaps more that it has ever been...you may not like it but it's fact.

Posted by: Naseem at July 17, 2006 11:14 AM

I agree with Chris, Israel should be careful not to touch the Christians of Lebanon. I'm all for destroying the Jihad of Hezbollah, but we should be working to support the the secular and Christian elements in Lebanon.

Israel should reach out to the Christian and support them, tack out the Hezbollah infrastructure and confront Iran, but take care not to harm Christian civilians.

Posted by: El Cid at July 17, 2006 11:19 AM

Naseem-

You are mentally ill. You treat beliefs as if they are facts. It's sick.

Posted by: Frank at July 17, 2006 11:19 AM

"These pdf are much smaller than anyother type of file and the reader has a search engine built in. This makes it much easier to search for quotes or words in large documents, a must if you are doing research."

I've never seen the point of pdf files. They're cumbersome and require other programs like "adobe". A simple text file, on the other hand, can be copied then pasted into a Word file, and searching for quotes or words within it is a simple and easy operation. I have a 1,000-page file in Word that takes no more than 3 seconds for me to search any word I want.

Posted by: Television at July 17, 2006 11:25 AM

there some right dodgy peoples here....but can I do something about it? Certainly I may be able to argue my point with them ....ONCE.

Naseem, I emphathize with your position and will take you at your representation. The harsh truth is that in a society where good outweighs evil, good prevails. The fact that the 'good' forces are unable or unwilling to confront the 'bad' does not speak well for the world in which you live.

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 11:27 AM

Naseem, "innocent" people wouldn't be killed if it wasn't for the fact muslim male terrorists hide under the burkas of women and presence of children.

I hope that you don't classify young muslim offspring as innocent when they can use a weapon and kill in cold blood as easily as a grown terrorist. An innocent is one with no hate in his heart.

Anyone who has actually lived and loved life would never submit to a death cult like islam. You should try living some time.

Posted by: freewoman at July 17, 2006 11:30 AM

Frank says Naseem-

You are mentally ill. You treat beliefs as if they are facts. It's sick.

I'm sorry Frank ...but you cannot put such as bold statement like this and expect no reply. You must elobrate.

Probably all the people who believe in a god believe that "beliefs are facts".

For example peoples believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was reserructed after cruxification after 3 days. This is not possible...but peoples beliefs lead them to believe that ...and if they want ...so be it....but are they sick?

According to you they are....ehhhh in that case are you sick yourself Frank?

Posted by: Naseem at July 17, 2006 11:37 AM

From an islamic site:
http://www.islamchannel.tv/forums/showForumReply.aspx?forumID=3209&name=Islam&catID=1
15. Israel
Salaam. Israel is seen as a western outpost and a humiliation in our conscience. Its existence smacks of defeat for us. Even if (and I mean if) the muslims were to except Israel (in the short term) it would be due to the goodwill of the muslims. In the long term in the end the muslims will defeat the enemy anyway. Salaam.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at July 17, 2006 11:37 AM

"I've never seen the point of pdf files. They're cumbersome and require other programs like "adobe". A simple text ..."

Television,
Even I never got the point of pdf until I had to scan a bill. A simple A4 size copy of a telephone bill. The .bmp file took the space of aroung 25 MB. Then I tried saving the scanned image as a .pdf. It took up only 270 KB's. I got the point of .pdf.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at July 17, 2006 11:38 AM

Brigitte Gabriels interview will shed a little more light onto the Lebanese situation found here..

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

find link at bottom left hand side of page

Posted by: Yorkist at July 17, 2006 11:42 AM

Naseem, this is the beginning of the destruction of Islam and the Jihad.

The world day by day is waking up and ready to crush the evil that is Da'wa and Sharia.

What is going on in Israel is the start of a long war that will save the West and the East.

Thank God that we have them as allies.

Hezbollah, will be crushed, Syria will be occupied and Iran will be stopped.

Posted by: El Cid at July 17, 2006 11:42 AM

El Cid...you said..."Israel should reach out to the Christian and support them, tack out the Hezbollah infrastructure and confront Iran, but take care not to harm Christian civilians".

There is a BIG problem with your suggestion. Firstly, when living in the UK, we were invited to the 'church' of England to hear a vicar/missionary from Lebanon speak about what was happening there.

He actually tried to convince people that Islam believes in the same God as in the Bible. Rubbish. Then he proceeded to say that Allah was merely the arab word for god. Rubbish. Finally, we asked him what changes were taking place with the 'converted christians' in Lebanon. Did they sympathize with Israel? The answer was NO! They continue to hate the jews. This is proof positive that their new FAITH is NOT Christianity.

The Catholic organization and the apostate 'church' of England are not Christian in that they are not at all sympathetic towards Israel. Jesus said that there was no more Jew, Greek, Gentile, Male, Female...we were all the same in the body of Christ and we were to love one another. We also know that God will keep his promises to the Jews. Catholics and CoE are into replacement theology which is EXACTLY how they were able to turn a blind eye to the holocaust and make deals with Hitler.

Allah is NOT Jehovah. If this so-called missionary was able to pray in arabic in the CoE and use the name Allah, I am afraid that we may discover that the so-called 'christians' in Lebanon are not really Believers.

Posted by: The Goobs at July 17, 2006 11:43 AM

Just to throw something into the mix with regard to those periods of history that could hardly be described as "Proud moments" for Christianity.

No-one would disagree that, at times, Christians have been guilty of the most despicable acts, perpetrated either upon non-Christians or even other branches of the faith itself.

Yet in modern times Christians have become more comfortable to question their individual faith and seek guidance within themselves and within the moral ethos of their respective societies without their minds locking up from any crisis of faith. I can't think off the top of my head, of one Christian society that take the absolute word of the Bible as a literal template for Christianity. The world would be a sorrier state if they did, I'm sure.

The point being that, as a religion, Christianity has progressed, evolved. With the exception of the radical(?) Christians, without whom I'm sure we would all have something less to laugh at. They're no longer expected to take up arms in the name of the faith. We have conscience, patriotism and morals to decide that factor for us.

The same cannot be said, however, for Islam. If ever a religion could be said to be going backwards then it would be Islam. Militant, religious intolerance, murder and mutilation of innocents in the name of the prophet and, an absolute certainty if they could pull it off, total annihilation of the Israeli nation. It certainly wouldn't end there either. Israel is just the nation that happens to be stuck smack bang in the middle of it all.

If Israel goes, then the militant Islamists will turn their eyes towards their next target. Would any realist truly trust that the voice of reason would be heard from within the Islamic nations ?. Perhaps.....For just about as long as it takes for the blades of the mindless zealots to silence it forever.

Islam does not teach Muslims to question their individual faith and fortify it with the values of their respective societies. It teaches absolute and unswerving adherence to the Quran, no exceptions. Deviate from that and become apostate, in which case they'll bury you right alongside reason.

Islam is not by any measure evolving to suit the ever changing world, it is regressing to barbarism.

At least Christianity today affords us the right to say "I don't care what it says in the Bible, it's wrong, plain and simple........And I won't let it happen"

Posted by: Wishbone at July 17, 2006 11:58 AM

As usually Naseem is offering the old choice of circumcision, tribute or death - I'm not entirley convinced we are talking to a female Ahmadiyah here - he, she or it keeps falling out of character.

Posted by: wallyUK at July 17, 2006 12:00 PM

The P.M. of Lebanon did a piece with Fox this morning, and his words did not give me the comfort that he is against Hezbollah. A spokesman from Fox stated later he "deep down was working with Israel". How can you allow 13,000 rockets into your country if it is against your desires? And allow a group into the governent, that is not suposed to be legal, by U.N. sanction and others?

The rockets being fired at Israel are carring a "buckshot" load, it explodes out when hitting a target to kill as many as they can. Remember, this is being fired at the PEOPLE of Israel, everyday folks.

And the U.N. is taking up a action, it is considering sending peacekeeper forces to Lebanon! Perhaps a go at the U.N. human shield thing, or are they going in to remove Hezbollah?

Strange days..

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at July 17, 2006 12:05 PM

I heard that...uh...'interview', too. More like a rant, blaming everything on Israel and taking responsibility for nothing. I have nothing but contempt for that Lebanese PM. They had another Fox reporter on the line in Haifa who wanted to ask the PM a question. Apparently, when asked if he would take the question, he thought that the reporter was an Israeli and refused to listen. Less than a minute later, the connection to the PM was "lost". Yeah right. Sounded to me like he hung up.

From the description, it sounds like the Hezzys are shooting anti-aircraft missiles at Israel. They shoot them almost straight up, actually at a very high angle, it goes until it runs out of fuel and comes back down in Israeli territory. The warheads with the "buckshot" (actually, it is technically shrapnel, which is not to be confused with fragmentation) are typical of anti-aircraft missiles. It is far easier to get a missile close to a high-speed airplane and have it explode, sending shrapnel and frag in all directions than it is to have the actual missile hit the target. It's the same idea behind the 'flak' shell.

It would be nice if the reporters on these "news" networks knew at least a little about which they speak.

Posted by: Eisenhund at July 17, 2006 12:27 PM

The Goobs, that's a good point. To what extent has the Christian community been compromised and subjugated to the anti-Isreali and Jihadi mind set now dominating the Muslim world.

Do all Christians in Lebanon believe this?

A population suffer dhimmi extinction can't be expected to truly voice what they believe in the open because of fear.

Regardless of what some of the Christian leaders in Lebanon say in public it is in Israelis interest to reach out to this besieged population and go out of it's way not to hurt any Christians as it does it's duty taking on Hezbollah.

Israel and the Christians should join forces to expel and defeat the Jihad in Lebanon .

As a Catholic I will put pressure on the Vatican and my Pope, to support Israel and spread the message that we need to stand together in the face of the Islamic threat.

Posted by: El Cid at July 17, 2006 12:35 PM

Eisenhund;
A much better description of the interview, thank you.

These missles are somthing new, I don't think I have seen these used against people in this way before. Military aircraft ,yes, citys no. The use of them is raising the bar, as far as what is comming next.

How could anybody think this could of continued on for decades ?

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at July 17, 2006 1:00 PM

Concerning Ayatollah Khamenei's vicious (and, as usual, bogus) comments about the USA and the Bush Administration all we have to say is "the feeling is mutual."

As for Lebanon, if the Christian majority there is unable to eliminate the Hizbollah presence on their own, the job may fall to someone else...like Israel. Hizbollah is the world's largest terrorism organization and conducts 'religious' violence throughout the world. No one should be forced or told to 'tolerate' Hizbollah. I mean no one.

As for our Ayatollah Khamenei, I wonder if he knows most people would rather kiss a live copperhead snake than sit in the same room with him? Talk about 'hideous'....

Posted by: pythagoras at July 17, 2006 1:06 PM

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei described Israel on Sunday as "satanic and cancerous" and praised the Lebanese group Hezbollah for its "jihad" against the Jewish state.

So then, this means the way to a negotiated settlement is wide open then, right?

Guess this nails that "peace coffin" shut leaving exactly what other options on the table?

Posted by: witness at July 17, 2006 1:06 PM

El Cid....You aid.."As a Catholic I will put pressure on the Vatican and my Pope, to support Israel and spread the message that we need to stand together in the face of the Islamic threat".

I hope that you and other Believers within the catholic organization are able to make a difference. It will be interesting to see what the pope has to say about the turmoil in the middle east. It will also be interesting to watch who he meets with over the next few weeks. He seems to be very quiet at the moment. Since the Vatican has far-reaching political power, which is why political leaders meet with him (not so that he can bless them) we shall see what strings he is able to pull and how he speaks of Israel. This will give us some indication of whether he is prepared to stand together with other Believers on the topic of Israel.

Posted by: The Goobs at July 17, 2006 1:12 PM

Witness: Israel has no option but to use force. This thing will be door-to-door in a week and Hezbollah will look to Iran for salvation. The real option decision will be left to Ahmedinejad; who will have to decide whether or not to openly act.

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 1:19 PM

When I read comments like this it reinforces by belief that Islam will need to be crushed in order to stop the violence. Muslims like the fanatical followers of Bushido in WW2 will need to face the choice of peace or total annihilation.

Posted by: Roxane at July 17, 2006 1:40 PM

Chris -

You raised a very good question when you asked why the Lebanese civilians are suffering the most from Israel's attacks; but I'm afraid you need to redirect your focus on who's really responsible....Lebanon.

The question you should be asking is why Lebanon would "allow" Hezbollah to set-up along their borders in the first place. Lebanon has complained about their activity, but complaining isn't enough. The Lebanese government should've done everything within it's power to rid themselves of this enemy. Instead, they stood by and did nothing; and they are the ones who have put their own people at risk.

Lebanon is the one you should be criticizing -- not Israel.

Posted by: champ at July 17, 2006 1:48 PM

Chris,

You are wrong!

Christians sure are very happy that Israel bomb the shit out of Lebanon.

Lebanon used to be a democratic, Christian country. The operative word is "USE TO BE."

If Lebanon did not let the PLO in, it would not have come to this end. If you invite thiefts to leave with you, you sure can enjoy your own demise.

Get rid of the Hizbullah before complaining about Israel.

Celebrate the bombing. It's not the finalle, yet.

Posted by: ssa at July 17, 2006 1:56 PM

Bush and Blair in an unguarded moment when they thought their microphones were off.

Bush replied: "What they need to do it to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit." Shortly afterwards Blair noticed the microphone and hastily switched it off, but not before the recording had reached news media.

Posted by: Roxane at July 17, 2006 1:57 PM

Naseem spewed:

“this happens because for some pecular reason best known to themselves...they won't submit to Allah.”

How weak and whiny your god (small g) must be that people won’t submit to it.
If allah is so powerful (look what happened to New Orleans, right?) why does it need suicidal youth to carry out crimes against humanity?

By the way, download a program with spell check (pecular?). Your 7th century grammar is in serious need of an upgrade.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 1:59 PM

Yorkist (and El Cid regarding the Lebanese silence):

Here is an updated article from Brigitte Gabriel sourced from the link provided by Gramfan:

http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/2006/July/July16/July16a/july16a.html
Brigitte Gabriel’s article “Thank You Israel”

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 2:00 PM

Wishbone said:

"At least Christianity today affords us the right to say "I don't care what it says in the Bible, it's wrong, plain and simple........And I won't let it happen"

This is not a forum for the subject but for the record, most Christians today base their sense of morality FROM the Bible not in spite of it.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 2:02 PM

Roxane: That microphone being on probably wasn't a mistake. In any case, the point was pretty blunt, to the point, and widely communicated to the public.

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 2:09 PM

Gramfan:

You are on top of it! I just realized you posted the inspiring article by Ms. Gabriel last night.

Well, it doesn't hurt to keep it active, I suppose.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 2:23 PM

Witness: Israel has no option but to use force. This thing will be door-to-door in a week and Hezbollah will look to Iran for salvation. The real option decision will be left to Ahmedinejad; who will have to decide whether or not to openly act.

Actually limes, I was being sardonic; I am in agreement with you on this point.

Frankly, I think the matter has been decided by Ahmedinejad before thing conflagration started. As a matter of fact, I believe he planned it; instigated it; and is the tactical implementation phase to attain is overall strategic goal -- destroy Israel.

I think the all secular PM's of Israel know it.

As for the pope -- he has only one goal decidedly it is the survival of the institution over which he presides regardless of who is in power.

The religious hierarchy are in my opinion, atheists masquarading as theists. They use tradition and god to pursue their own ends namely wealth and power.

In this context it doesn't matter to the pope if the world is conquered by jihad and islam as long as they have a position at some level in the theocracy that will ensue.

If the atheistic secular world of of EU and US control the world it still would not really matter to the pope in the final analysis as long as the institution is allowed to play some role in governance.

Either way, the pope wants to win and keep the institution alive.

What will prove instructive is who the papal analysts will predict as the ultimate victor.

If they project islam the winner, it would behoove them now to call for Israel to show restraint and call a unilateral halt.

On the other hand, if the pope condems hamas and the isalmics, it may indicate that the papacy is gambling that the West will be the victors in the end.

Given the pope's condemnation of Israels action just this week, my guess is that the Vatican is indicating that they believe that islam will be the ultimate victor in the end.

In that case, to be in a position to negotiate some type of role in islamic governance no matter how trivial or megar they need to be on record now as having come out in some fashion against Israel and in begrudging support of islam.

Ugly choices -- but the goal for the Vatican is to survive even if Hitler himself were to come back from the dead.

Posted by: witness at July 17, 2006 2:37 PM

"If Lebanon did not let the PLO in, it would not have come to this end. If you invite thiefts to leave with you, you sure can enjoy your own demise.Get rid of the Hizbullah before complaining about Israel."

Absolutely. Also, to those of you who are confused as to why Israel is attacking Lebanon so hard and not Syria or Iran, here's the reality which really can't be addressed by the CNNs of the world:

The Islamic/Arabist element of the CIA and national security establishment was hoping to use the Muslim Brotherhood and Saudis to take over Lebanon (done) and then move on to Syria to get rid of Assad. Also, as Hugh has pointed out, the Saudis are into "slow jihad" (dawa, demographics and money) are displeased with Hezbollah's "adventurism" and FAST Jihad. Was it useful to blow up RAFIK HARRIRI Airport (named after a Saudi frontman) to slow Hezbollah re-supply? Sure! But more importantly, it sent a message to the Saudis: "we will fuck up your Muslim Brothers cashist colony in Lebanon and hurt your profits".

Israel's actions not only are hurting Hezbollah, they are hurting the Saudis economic clout in Lebanon, screwing up the slow jihad, breaking the Islamist/CIA/State Dept. Muslim Brothers effort against Syria, etc. Like a pimple, it is blowing up all the slow conflicts like "Muslim Brothers vs. Assad", "Saudis vs. Iran", "Sunni vs. shia", "Lebanese tourism profits vs. Jihad ideology. " (note: how many times have you heard drugs from Bekaa mentioned in the past few days? Not much)

Israel knew exactly what it was doing, and has forced folks in Washington, many of whom thought they could simultaneously be seen as "pro-Israel" while backing jihad in Chechnya, Syria, Xinjaing, Kashmir, Kosovo, etc. Uh-uh. Not anymore. Time to pick sides.

Posted by: Abu Lahab at July 17, 2006 2:42 PM

Spare me, Naseem!

You are "saddened" by the possible demise of Israel? Really! Do you know how disingenuous you sound?

If you were truly "saddened" by this prospect, then why not invite the Jews to live in Pakistan -- why America? Better yet, why not support the fact that the Jews DESERVE to live in Israel because it's the BIRTHPLACE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE, not the Palestinian people.

Israel has been a soverign state for 58 years, and they aren't going bye-bye any time soon, so don't send up a flare yet. In fact, you will never celebrate Israel's demise. Now go have yourself a good cry!

Posted by: champ at July 17, 2006 2:43 PM

Naseem: If after all these millions and millions of years of existence al-lah still doesn't understand that honey attracts more bees than vinegar does al-lah couldn't be too intelligent, could it? Even human beings have figured this out in lifetimes under a century in length.

Now with regards to Lebanon it is the major headquarters of Hizbollah, the world's largest terrorism organization, the existence of which poses a thorny problem: tolerating Hizbollah's existence will result in non-combatants being murdered and fighting it will get innocent civilians murdered too. In my estimation the people of Lebanon have a DUTY to destroy Hizbollah as it kills "infidels" in many nations across the world without provocvation. However, for whatever reasons, the Lebanese have failed to acknowledge their responsibility to eliminate this largest of terror organizations. As we have previously mentined Hizbollah attacks and kills non-Muslim non-combatants in many countries; therefore Hizbollah can rightly be construed as a menace. If the Lebanese can not or will not take on the responsility of destroying Hizbollah it is important someone ELSE take on the job immediately.

So, there's no real reason why Israel cannot step up to the plate and finish off Hizbollah.

The Lebanese Christians should realize what Israel is doing and offer whatever assistance is needed in order to finish the job. The Lebanese Christian community will benefit from a homeland free if Hizbollah's Islamic terrorism (which targets Christianity) and they could make Israel's work much easier. And Israel would seem less vulnerable to the outside as it draws needed strength in numbers.

Posted by: pythagoras at July 17, 2006 2:48 PM

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei rejected the demand by U.S. President George W. Bush that Hezbollah disarm, vowing, "This will never happen".
--------------------

Many jihadists will lay dead with their weapons in their hands before this is over.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

He also described the Bush administration as the "most hideous" U.S. government in recent years.
-----------------

Al least GW does have some ranking besides being just slightly bettter than all of his democractic detrators, but that is not a compliment.

This is kind of like do you want to be hung with a new rope or an old rope, the outcome will be the same.

Give 'em hell Israel. God's blessings on you.

Posted by: Texican at July 17, 2006 3:01 PM

So, there's no real reason why Israel cannot step up to the plate and finish off Hizbollah.

Until the scowling countenence of Condi shows up at the window wagging her finger and stabbing the air in a dismal spectical of disapproval.

Her boss used some profanity today, my goodnes. To his credit so far, whore-hey bush, seems to recognize that maybe the Israelies aren't in anyother position except to fight for their survival.

This time, I think it is life and death. I sense is that things are going to rachet upward with this action being met with that action, etc. etc.

I fail to see how this does not end in some kind of thermonuclear showdown with one side fighting a religious war; the other wagering on the fallacious supposition that all men are ultimately as secular as they are, and can through reason -- be brought to heel.

Hope you can laugh at me as being wrong one day, but from what I am looking at in the news and from various other sources, I'm not clear on how other more attractive alternatives are at all feasible at the moment.

Posted by: witness at July 17, 2006 3:06 PM

I fail to see how this does not end in some kind of thermonuclear showdown
Posted by: witness at July 17, 2006 03:06 PM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nuclear war was foretold, it is coming. It will be waged across the world.

Before it is to late..................

Prepare, be armed, be ready.

The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost and the cost will be immense.

Posted by: Texican at July 17, 2006 3:13 PM

I see not possibility of at least indirectly targeting the Christian communitie(s) in Lebanon because of the hit on the aiport and ports. This is tourist season. I have no way of knowing this in terms of the breakdown of tourists into Lebanon but I imagine it's mostly Christian. I know of an Armenian Physician from the US who vacations in Lebanon. I would wager that there is a very large Christian diaspora--Armenian, Marionite ect who vacations in Lebanon. They probably have the nice shops, spend money ect. Somehow, I don't see a large Shia shopping or business base. Perhaps if the large Shia community could up and leave--perhaps moving to the peoples Islamic government of Iran. More Shias. More Religion.

The strength of the Lebanese Christian community is not strongly around Mt. Lebanon. It wasn't always that way. The Bekka Valley was a strong hold of Christianity as well not too long ago!! Until they were raped, bombed out, intimated by 'The party of the Ungodyly Shia.' Imagine the thriving country Lebanon could have been without the Shia breeding nightmare. One looks at Nasrallah, one listens to his venom, and one sees how little in common he has with the one million Christians. Like different as two universes.

Posted by: biorabbi at July 17, 2006 3:15 PM

Witness: Didn't mean to infer you thought there was an option...

Concur that this thing could get easily out of hand: Hezbollah near annihilation, Saddam's gas gets used, Israel goes ballistic, maybe nuclear, who knows.

Abu's arguement that the level of hatred we're seeing is messing up Slow Jihad's grand plan makes a lot of sense. A popular commentator today voiced an opinion that Hezbollah's action has been a gift to the world. I think I agree.

I'm also going to keep some bottled water and Ravioli-o's on hand.

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 3:46 PM

XRDC.....Sorry mate, I wasn't suggesting otherwise, although I could have made sure my last lines were a little less mangled....My apologies for that. I was responding, in part, to an earlier post by Chris, with particular reference to his stating "I dont like Christianity nor Islam", and referring to "Christian and Muslim barbarism".

My point was that while Christians and Muslims are held to the teachings of the Bible and Quran respectively, Christians are not required to accept the Bible as the literal word of God, which leaves them the freedom to embrace the "spirit" of the testaments in their faith. All in all it makes for a lot more loving and a lot less 'smiting', as it were, and the beauty of this is that we're free to 'choose' that we hope for peace on Gods Earth.

This was simply an example of Christianity having evolved into the faith we know today, whereas Islam would drag the earth right back to the seventh century, by force if necessary.

I must admit I am a little confused as to which "subject" this forum is not for. If we're discussing the rising threat of "Islamism" coming from the Middle East, then what basis of comparison do we have with which to judge its evils other than that same sense of Western, Christian (or otherwise) morality of which you speak?.

Truly mate...I'm not trying to wind anyone up here....I accept that I may not be explaining myself as clearly or as eloquently as I possibly could, but I'd hope that you see where I'm coming from, so to speak.

Posted by: Wishbone at July 17, 2006 3:49 PM

IDF destroys long-range Iranian missile in Lebanon

Ummah News Links

Posted by: ummahnewslinks at July 17, 2006 3:53 PM

Lebanon has been supporting terrorist organizations for nearly 40 years!

http://www.palestinefacts.org states:

"In 1969, the prime minister of Lebanon reached an agreement with the PLO that effectively endorsed PLO freedom of action in Lebanon to recruit, arm, train, and employ fighters against Israel. This was the beginning of a disater for the people of Lebanon."

Actions speak louder than words. And. Israel has been MORE than patient with the Lebanese government. Go Israel!

Posted by: champ at July 17, 2006 4:15 PM

To any moral person on earth, Israel has more than ample justification to take direct action against khamenei, ahmadinejad, and of course, the 'moderate' rafsanjani who famously suggested that a full nuclear exchange with Israel would wipe out the Jews while leaving the ummah only slightly nicked. I would hope that Israeli assassins are planning the mission as we speak. Who knows, they might even be able to take out bin laden and zwahari while they are over there, too.

Posted by: Infidel33 at July 17, 2006 4:24 PM

Fool: He also described the Bush administration as the "most hideous" U.S. government in recent years.

Spencer: Waxing nostalgic for the Carter administration?

No, Mr. Spencer. He was probably thinking of Reagan/Bush and Ollie North; you know, the guys that gave Khommeini planeloads of Stinger Missiles? AFTER September 1983 no less.

Here's the to death of Hezbollah, the murderers that slaughtered 241 sleeping US Marines in Beirut in Black '83. Marines sent to protect civilians from the likes of the PLO and Hezbollah (same thing.)

Please, Iran, you nation of bastards and cowards, sons of SOWS and whoremongers! Declare war on Israel, DO IT NOW. The US Marines have a score to settle with YOU. DO IT. Ollie North, the traitorous EX-Marine, is not in a position to help you now.

I KNOW someone in Iran Intel. is reading this. Come on, chickenshit; what are you waiting for? Do you or do you NOT think that God is on your side? We don't believe in God; we believe in Chesty Puller, Thomas Jefferson, and Richard P. Feynmann.

You'll be with your so-called "God" soon enough.

fanorollins@yahoo.com

Posted by: kj at July 17, 2006 4:34 PM

kj;

Easy on Ollie. He was executing the Reagan strategy of playing one side against the other. When Iran was beginning to look like they were to lose the Iran-Iraq war, we found some creative ways to keep the two sides fighting each other instead of us. I've heard that the stingers were designed to self-deactivate after a number of years.

Maybe this is a strategy going forward. Aren't Osama and Iran on opposite sides of their ideological fight?

Siempre Fi

Posted by: limes at July 17, 2006 4:58 PM

As for the pope -- he has only one goal decidedly it is the survival of the institution over which he presides regardless of who is in power.

The only "one" goal of the Pope is to save souls by spreading the Truth of our One True Lord Jesus Christ.

Pope Benedict recently spoke of a cleansing of the Church, resulting in a smaller and more reverent flock. Not the words of a power hungry monarch you propose. He knows the dangers of islam and of the rampant secularism in Europe, both of which feed of of each other. He has written extensivly on it and I highly suggest you read some of his theological teachings before slamming him or any other Pope.

All that conspiracy stuff sounds like something out of the X-Files or the DaVinci Hoax...

Posted by: adobe at July 17, 2006 4:59 PM

Goobs, you know nothing of history. Try reading some instead of your hysterical protestant propaganda.

To the rest: Islam is the enemy of all civilizations not its own. No group has ever flourished under the boot of Islam unless they've converted. We have to wake up to the threat of Islamic hegemony all over the world.

Regarding Israel, however, when does the statute of limitations come effect on land claims? Can Israel claim Palestine because "God gave it to us?" The Jews had their chance and lost it in A.D.70. Must we turn Hungary back to the Huns? North Africa to Carthage (they suffered a lot from the Romans, remember)? America to the Anasazi (wherever they are now)? Turkey to Greece? There comes a time when historical claims have to be dropped because they are stupid. Of course, idiot "Christian" fundamentalists (Goobs) in their demented reading of the Bible think that somehow this work of man (the establishment of Israel) is in fact the work of God. It, they believe, is also going to usher in Armageddon. Well it may for sure, but not for the reasons they think.

It is easy to see why the Christian/Muslim population of the British Mandate was angered when Palestine was partitioned. At the same time, it cannot be reversed. That would be absurd as well. I don't see why Israel and the funding thereof is never debated in Congress? Why must the US support Israel no matter what? Why are we unable to exercise some control there, after all, we're paying the bill?

We (the US) have paid a great price for our support of Israel. At the same time, I'd like them in my foxhole when the real fight comes.

Posted by: Subimonk at July 17, 2006 5:01 PM

Wishbone-

That’s alright. I agree with your overall point that there are ridiculous attempts at moral equivalence between the two religions. In that respect it often does relate to the topic at hand but it’s best to stick to the lead story for each thread.

There will no doubt be posters whose sole intent is to turn the thread into a political rant or theological argument. Some do not hide their intentions very well when they pick their fights and are best ignored completely if not made an example of. Some use pretty foul language to make their point which usually indicates a lack of ability to express themselves in an educated way (similar to Bush’s comments to Blair today.) Hugh sets a good standard for biting commentary that is actually reprintable.

Leave those who vainly seek to hijack the thread to wallow in their anger by not responding to their off-topic rants. They will eventually go away when ignored enough, however they do get lonely and wander back at times.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 5:28 PM

Subimonk,

Israel doesn't need the your approval for its existence. It only needs to stay strong. Stronger than all her enimies.

You speak only philosophy. It's only hot air.

Posted by: ssa at July 17, 2006 5:46 PM

If Israel is the problem, then why are Islamic Killers bombing trains in India, why the violence in Thialand, Bali, Philippines, and other places. The answer is Islam. It explains the past problems between Greeks and Turks over Cypress, revolt in Chechnya, bombings in Madrid and London, the Paris Intifada, the Mohammed cartoons, and others; there are more examples. They're even plotting terrorist attacks in Canada of all places.

It's Islam, dammit.

Posted by: Pelayo at July 17, 2006 5:54 PM

Subimonk -

Don't let your dislike for Christians and their beliefs cloud your judgment and common sense regarding the Jews and Israel's right to exist.

You asked what the "statute of limitations is on land"....NONE. Plus, the Jews won this land fair 'n square back in 1948.

The Jews were driven out their land in 70AD by the Romans -- the BIRTHPLACE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE -- not the Palestinian people; where over 1.1 million Jews were killed in the process, so common sense tells me it's THEIR LAND.

And I don't need a bible to help me figure this one out -- only a brain!

Posted by: champ at July 17, 2006 5:55 PM

Champ, Let me add to your posting. The 70AD* diaspora is the reason that a large number of Jews wound up in Europe, Persia, and other places, all parts of the Roman Empire. The Chief Thug of Tehran keeps insisting that the Jews return to Europe, as if he believes that is where they originated. Whats-his-name is too smart to believe that. Those words are spoken for the great unwashed masses, ingorant as they are. Much like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed manure.

*I will never use "CE" in place of "AD."

Posted by: Pelayo at July 17, 2006 6:08 PM

1. I get the impression that naseem is bi-polar. Or even better,several people!

2. Carolyn2 - how true!
"Israel is seen as a western outpost and a humiliation in our conscience. Its existence smacks of defeat for us."

3.XRDC Glad you found the source of the Brigitte Gabriel piece - (I posted the whole thing on another thread as you say, without the link, so thanks!)

4.Subimonk "Regarding Israel, however, when does the statute of limitations come effect on land claims? Can Israel claim Palestine because "God gave it to us?" The Jews had their chance and lost it in A.D.70."

This is stupid, plain stupid! Does this mean that you are going to give back the US to the Native Americans, that islam is going to get out of Asia? Should the US take over Germany and Japan because they were defeated in WW2. I could go on,,,it's not that simple!

Israel may have lost the land a long time ago but it has fought for it and won since 1948.
The only people who can't accept that are the arabs! Maybe you also?

Posted by: Gramfan at July 17, 2006 6:45 PM

Naseem wrote: For example peoples believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was reserructed after cruxification after 3 days. This is not possible...

Welllll - not quite so fast there Naseem. This may not be "normally" possible, but there are thousands of people worldwide that have been clinically "dead" and then revived. Metastasized cancers that simply disappear. Nunmerous other medically unexplainable events that can be defined only as "miraculous" simply because they can not be explained scientifically.

And then there is DNA. DNA allows us to determine who your parents and siblings are - even several generations back. DNA manipulation has allowed cloning of animals and at least one scientist claims to have cloned a human being (though many consider him a fraud and a nutcase.) Stem cell research. Bone marrow transplants. More than a few sets of ancient bones - pharoahs, the ice man from Switzerland - have had DNA analysis done. Fifty years from now science might be able to not only analyze their DNA but literally bring them back to life.

Someone once defined "faith" as the presence of belief in the absence of proof. You may choose not to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. There is no scientific proof for the resurrection, but there is no absolute scientific proof against it either. Science makes the possibility more realistically achieveable almost by the day.

Many others consider the "visions" in which "Allah" supposedly revealed the Koran to Mohamed to be "impossible." There is, however, a scientific explanation for those events. They are called hallucinations. These days people who suffer from delusional hallucinations most usually wind up in the psychiatric ward - at least here in the West.

Posted by: gallopinggranny at July 17, 2006 7:06 PM

Just to bolster gallopinggranny's comment...

There is also too much archaelogical and historical evidence to outright disregard biblical authenticity. The qu'ran only has the original scriptures and stories from the Jews and Christians to back up any of it's claims.

Oh yeah, and the historical records of the twisted acts committed by Muhammed himself (Heat be upon him.)

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 7:46 PM

Muhammad and Islam are the False Prophet Anti-Christ preaching lies.

It's that simple.

This is the struggle.

The mark of the beast is the Veil, the Q-Ran, and other vessles of persecution...all in the name of Allah.

Abra-Ca-Dabra Mushroom Cloud them before them mushroom cloud us. Because if they could they wouldn't hesitate. This is the determination the West fails to grasp.

Posted by: Cool Hunter at July 17, 2006 7:52 PM

"Regarding Israel, however, when does the statute of limitations come effect on land claims? Can Israel claim Palestine because "God gave it to us? The Jews had their chance and lost it in A.D.70."
-- from a posting above

The poster above misses the point, or rather misses so many points, that one hardly knows where to begin.

First, though some Jews left the Middle East for Europe after the Muslim conquest in the late 7th century (and others had arrived still earlier, as in Rome), many others had remained in the Middle East. There were Jewish settlements in Arabia (or have you forgotten what the Qur'an and Hadith tell us), in Mesopotamia and Persia at least a thousand years before the Arabs, or Islam, arrived, in Syria, in North Africa, and of course Judea. They didn't disappear. In the center of their religious and historical existence, they continued to live, continuously, in Jerusalem, in Hebron, in Safed, three of the four cities considered holy in Judaism. The first printing press in Asia was a Hebrew press established in Safed.

What happened during the period of Muslim conquest? Did Judea thrive? Or did it slowly empty out of people? What do we know of it? Well, we know that Western travellers began to visit the area, and report, in numbers, in the mid-19th century. What did they report? Bustling communities, thriving agriculture? No. They reported to a man about the sheer emptiness, the "ruin and desolation" -- see Melville, see Mark Twain, see Lamartine, see even,in the late 18th century, the report of Volney (a report that the late Edward Said carefully omitted from his ludicrous and meretricious "The Question of Palestine" though he was perfectly aware of Volney's existence because he did quote him in other books).

And what exactly did the Zionists do? They did not seize a single dunam of land. They bought land, and continued to buy land, often from Arab absentee landlords -- or not Arabs, for there were and are all kinds of non-Arab communities in historic Palestine. And in buying land that had been untended, they began one of the most impressive feats of land reclamation in history -- see the agronomist Walter Clay Lowdermilk's report in "Palestine: Land of Promise."

What else? Well, their efforts led to a kind of economic boom, similar to that which occurred in the Gulf states from oil. And just as Arabs from everywhere flocked in the 1970s and in the decades since, to Kuwait and the Emirates and Saudi Arabia, Arabs -- especially from Egypt and Iraq -- flocked to that area under Ottoman rule before World War I, and then after World War I assigned to the Mandate for Palestine. And even in the 19th century, there were arrivals -- to this emptied out land, from among the veterans of Mehmet Ali's forces, from those of Abd el-Kader in Algeria (there was even a village consisting entirely of Berbers in one of the vilayets composing "Palestine"), and later, as the tide of Ottoman (Muslim) rule receded in southeastern Europe, the Ottoan government transferred whole populations of Muslims to the area of what would become Mandatory Palestine.

Nothing will do except detailed knowledge of the demographic situation, not only in Mandatory Palestine, but in the century before, and also the situation of the Jews who continued to live under Muslim Arab rule all over the Middle East and North Africa.

The winners of World War I thought, rightly, that at the breakup of the Ottoman Empire it was entirely reasonable that some of the constiuent peoples of that Empire should have their own states. An Arab state, a Jewish state, a Kurdish state, and an Armenian state were all envisioned. We all know what happened. The Arabs ended up with 22 states in the end. The Armenian state turned out to be a Soviet puppet republic, until quite recently. The Jewish state was built without the help, and often the hindrance, of the British officials, civilian and military, who for the most part did not fulfill their commitments, made when the Mandate for Palestine was entrusted to Great Britain. For a start, all of Eastern Palestine was loppped off, unilaterally, in 1921 at the Cairo Conference. Almost immediately British officials found themselves indifferent to, and later more and more hostile to, the chief stated aims of the Mandate that they were supposedly promoting: to "facilitate Jewish immmigration" into Palestine and to "encourage close Jewish settlement on the land." In fact, whenever a local British official tried to help the Jews, he was moved out of Mandatory Palestine. That is what happened to Colonel Meinertzhagen in the 1920s,, and to Captain Orde Wingate in the 1930s. And then, at the moment of maximum peril, in 1939, Colonial Secretary Malcolm Macdonald proposed to limit Jewish immigartion to 15,000 a year for five years, and that would be it. During World War II the ports of Rumania remained open. Perhaps as many as one million Jews fleeing the Nazis might, had the British allowed and aided it, made it to Mandatory Palestine. They never did.

You have left out so much of the real, and detailed, history of that area, and offered a travesty of Jews simply reappearing, in your imaginative account having disappeared round about 70 A.D. You may think you are exempt from the requirement to actually know all of the relevant facts.

You are not.

Posted by: Hugh at July 17, 2006 8:02 PM

Interesting New York Sun article by an Arab using his to reason (Savage has read this on his program):

http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=2

Posted by: Frank at July 17, 2006 8:04 PM

As for the pope -- he has only one goal decidedly it is the survival of the institution over which he presides regardless of who is in power.

The only "one" goal of the Pope is to save souls by spreading the Truth of our One True Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope you are right, and in the perfect world you might be. Alas the pope is a man and a kind of head of state charged with the -- like it or not -- secular responsibility, to keep the institution alive on his watch.

Pope Benedict recently spoke of a cleansing of the Church, resulting in a smaller and more reverent flock.

Then I wish him the best in that enterprise.

Not the words of a power hungry monarch you propose.

My opinion, in nonetheless -- although I would not consider the papacy a "monarchy" as such.

He knows the dangers of islam and of the rampant secularism in Europe, both of which feed of of each other.

I wager that you are correct on this point, so I agree with you here.

He has written extensivly on it and I highly suggest you read some of his theological teachings before slamming him or any other Pope.

Keys of Blood This Blood was instructive and provide keen insight into the papal thinking of the day. The popes are very worldly in their thinking and their prose.

My comment wasn't intended to be a wholesale slam against the pope or you, and I have nothing in particular against catholics; I've had fine golfing buddies that were members of the clergy.

We never agreeded on theological issues but we always had a great time swapping stories on the 19th hole.

I was makeing an observation based on personal conversations that I have had with well placed in the institution, and there are those who are atheists.

I can't retract that because of first hand knowledge, thus my opinion as previously expressed will remain; but I will also concede that not every member of the clergy is a none-believer; many are in fact believers, perhaps being in the numerical majority.

But I have reason to believe that these believers are not necessarily running the institution or administering the many world wide offices than are part of the institution.

I meant no disrespect for you nor am I question your personal beliefs.

All that conspiracy stuff sounds like something out of the X-Files or the DaVinci Hoax

I done a great deal of personal research on these matters as well -- bunk, all of it!

Posted by: witness at July 17, 2006 8:16 PM

gallopinggranny wrote, "Many others consider the "visions" in which "Allah" supposedly revealed the Koran to Mohamed to be "impossible." There is, however, a scientific explanation for those events. They are called hallucinations. These days people who suffer from delusional hallucinations most usually wind up in the psychiatric ward - at least here in the West."

LOL!! How can naseem understand what you wrote? It's way too much logical information. Her "muslim vision" is too narrow minded to look beyond the conditioning of her cult.

mohammed's rules of life( man made ) for his followers from birth, death, and beyond are to keep the women downtrodden, no love, no laughter, no freedom to think, only follow like sheep. He was mentally ill, and deluded, and after thousands of years, his people still haven't figured it out...

Posted by: freetoBEfree at July 17, 2006 8:54 PM

A very good comment at the Jerusalem Post; the author quotes the following statement by a "leading Arab liberal" and then elaborates further:

"I have been watching some 20 Arabic-speaking television channels (Egyptian, Emirate, Qatari, Syrian, Sudanese, Lebanese and Kuwaiti). The outcome is: Either these (hundreds of) people who appeared on the screen(s) and talked passionately about 'our' dignity, raising 'our' heads, 'our' national pride and the victory that God will grant 'us' were mad, or I am the one who represents madness."

It's worth reading it all (to paraphrase Robert...)

Posted by: van der Ley at July 17, 2006 9:21 PM

freetoBEfree-

What gallopinggranny wrote is brilliant and it's funny. Humor is a unique expression of the human intellect-it's what makes humans more than beasts.
It's high-time for folks to use reason and humor-to use God's gifts to us.

Posted by: Frank at July 17, 2006 9:27 PM

Chris, this is Lebanon's religious make-up according to CIA World Fact Book:

Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri),

Christian >B>39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant),

other 1.3%

39% is not a nominal majority. Another example of Wikipedia having wrong information.

Posted by: Pelayo at July 17, 2006 9:52 PM

>B>39%----I do not like using HTML codes.

Posted by: Pelayo at July 17, 2006 9:56 PM

It always has been an Iranian war there Walid, buddy. What in the hell was Southern Lebanon ever going to fight Israel with? And yes, it is a battleground. That can certainly happen when you let those nice Hezbollah boys launch their missiles from your back yard, rather than sending them to Mr Assad or Mr. Khameneis house to play. But nows your chance to make up for lost time and houses turned to rubble. Help the Israeli army dispatch Hezbollah. Or else shut up.

Posted by: OLDPUPPYMAX at July 17, 2006 10:50 PM

Frank
just read that link you posted from NYSun.
If it is true,,well, there may yet be hope!
Thanks:)It cheered me up a bit.

Posted by: Gramfan at July 17, 2006 10:55 PM

Hugh
That was a great piece of history.
I hope many get to read it.
Thanks for posting it.

Posted by: Gramfan at July 17, 2006 10:57 PM

Gramfan, the NY Sun article doesn't really make me a whole lot more optimistic. Ultimately, the biggest threat our civilization faces comes from our "allies", as mentioned in the article, saudi, egypt, jordan, uae, etc. Their weapons; control of muslim minds, control of arab and western media, control of universities, influence over western political leaders, and ultimately, control of western minds, while promoting the proliferation of both islam and muslims in our midst is a bigger threat than all the suicide bombers and iranian rockets and pakastani a-bombs. These "allies" are upset because they fear this "fast jihad" (as Hugh likes to call it) will awaken too many Infidels to the threat of islam.

Posted by: Infidel33 at July 18, 2006 12:26 AM

Hugh's history of land ownership was great. Thank you.

One comment on Zathras' thoughts on charity. Mark Twain had a saying that I'll try to paraphrase:

The difference between a starving dog and a starving man is that, when you provide for the starving dog, you have a friend for life.

Posted by: limes at July 18, 2006 12:41 AM

Witness, I resent your attack on the pope and I am disappointed by your comments.

An anti-Catholic agenda is not called for when we are all fighting this Islamic enemy. Unity...solidarity is what we should strive for.

To the other posters thanks for the info on the plight of Christians in Lebanon.

Posted by: El Cid at July 18, 2006 1:25 AM

Lets make it one hundred:

God bless the Israeli forces in harm's way. Here's to the thought of my infant daughter's grandchildren making their pledge of allegiance.

Signing off...

Posted by: limes at July 18, 2006 3:50 AM

Dear Heavenly Father, I pray for the peace of Israel and for the protection of your people. I ask you to guide them through these difficult times and give them the wisdom to deal with every situation. Keep them safe from their enemies that surround them and help them to destroy the wicked forces of Islam. I ask you this in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Amen.

Posted by: jimmy at July 18, 2006 4:31 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

I don't know why that lund gornaik would want to bomb me specifically....cannot understand that.

The bottom line here is that ...more than just Lebense muslim peoples are dying...the state of Lebonan is being systametically dismantled by Israel. How long can Israel keep doing this?

We all know that foreign investment and a (limited) multicultural mix of peoples are important to build a state & to share expertise & pass to the local muslim engineers in Lebonan.

Israel is doing what it can to dismantle this ethos and the Amekerie is turning a blind eye.

This is forcing the Lebenese more to look towards to Iran (and they could have gone to Iraq...but thanks to the Amekerie this is not possible) and Hisbollox....and ultimately Allah.

Without doubt this reinforces a more militant muslim attitude...when is Israel learn that the road to "damascus" is not the same road to peace.

They need to cease all bombing and re-assure the peoples leaving to stay put assuring them of their safety.

Clearly without this the safety of Israel too is at risk...no more needs to be said.

Posted by: Naseem at July 18, 2006 6:52 AM

Amen!Jimmy.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at July 18, 2006 7:08 AM

Naseem wrote: The bottom line here is that ...more than just Lebense muslim peoples are dying...the state of Lebonan is being systametically dismantled by Israel. How long can Israel keep doing this?

When I was a child my father often said to me "If you walk through a mud puddle you are going to get dirty." A particularly frequent comment during my teenage years. What he meant, of course, is that if you hang out with druggies you will become a druggie, and so on right down the line.

I am sorry that the people of Lebanon are being punished for the actions of Hizballah, but one of the first things we teach our children is that every action you take in life has a consequence. If you allow terrorists to store missiles in your home, then do not be surprised when your home is blown to bits. The day you allow the missile you are a conspirator, not an innocent civilian bystander. When you play, you pay.

A state that allows an armed non-government entity to operate in the way that Hizballah has all these years is at best completely unable to control its own country. When parents cannot control their own children the state or the police step in to control their children for them. Why should you be surprised that Israel would retaliate in a massive way over these illegal kidnappings and the constant missile barrage. Do you think that any viable country would do differently? America sure wouldn't.

How long can Israel keep doing this? Well, they've been periodically hauling the Arab world out to the woodshed for more than 50 years. At least in the US most people are sick to death of watching the vibrant economy of this postage stamp sized country subjected to the repeated onslaughts by her "neighbors." As far as I am concerned, Israel can keep doing what she's doing this time until Hizballah is dismantled, the soldiers returned and the rockets gone from Lebanese soil. If the Lebanese economy gets a little bent in the process, they should consider the damage that they have inflicted on the Israeli economy with the barrage of rockets. (Not a NEW phenomenon, BTW.)

Bottom line: You reap what you sow.

Posted by: gallopinggranny at July 18, 2006 8:15 AM

Witness, I resent your attack on the pope and I am disappointed by your comments.

An anti-Catholic agenda is not called for when we are all fighting this Islamic enemy. Unity...solidarity is what we should strive for.

To the other posters thanks for the info on the plight of Christians in Lebanon.

El Cid:

You are free to resent any thing I comment on.

If you are disappointed in the fact that my view on the papacy differs from yours, and you wish to consider my differing point of view and opinions as an "attack on the pope," you are also free to do so.

If you want to dipict my opinion and my observations as an anti-Catholic agenda, you may do so.

Suffice it to say, we have very different perspectives and probably will never agree point by point on issues of the papacy.

However, I suspect that recognize the reality that indeed we are united in the singular purpose of a common enemy determined to to us both and anyone vaguely like either of us in thought.

So if you are troubled by my views and opinions that I offer you the Gospels -- especially the Epistles drawing your attention to the acrimonious disputations between Peter and Paul.

Dispite their obvious rancor and differing points of view on a plethora of theological issues they in fact were united on the fundementals of their common system of beliefs.

They are like us; we are like them -- so let us disagree vigorously on this point or that. We are indeed united, more so than we may realize.

All the very best to you.

Posted by: witness at July 18, 2006 8:40 AM

I am not sure what is going on with the server at my end; but there is a problem as you can see. The IT staff is on it; so let me attempt a repost

Posted by: witness at July 18, 2006 8:48 AM

Witness, I resent your attack on the pope and I am disappointed by your comments.

An anti-Catholic agenda is not called for when we are all fighting this Islamic enemy. Unity...solidarity is what we should strive for.

To the other posters thanks for the info on the plight of Christians in Lebanon.

El Cid:

You are free to resent any thing I comment on.

If you are disappointed in the fact that my view on the papacy differs from yours, and you wish to consider my differing point of view and opinions as an "attack on the pope," you are also free to do so.

If you want to dipict my opinion and my observations as an anti-Catholic agenda, you may do so.

Suffice it to say, we have very different perspectives and probably will never agree point by point on issues of the papacy.

However, I suspect that you recognize the reality that indeed we are united in the singular purpose of a common enemy determined to to destroy us both and anyone vaguely like either of us in thought or worldview.

So if you are troubled by my views and opinions then I offer you the Gospels -- especially the Epistles; drawing your attention to the acrimonious disputations between Peter and Paul.

Dispite their obvious rancor and differing points of view on a plethora of theological issues, they in fact were united on the fundementals of their common system of beliefs.

They are like us; we are like them -- so let us disagree vigorously on this point or that. We are indeed united, more so than we may realize.

And I most certainly do not wish to destroy you because you see the world very differently than I; I suspect you feel the same way.

Moreover, I'll wager that we both realize that our common adversary would not accord either of us the same grace and courtesy.

All the very best to you El Cid-- and to the rest of you who hold the teaching of the Catholic faith. Indeed we differ on so many things, but like Peter and Paul before us, we are more united than it appears at first blush on many important points

Posted by: witness at July 18, 2006 8:59 AM

One this board's 'favorite' islamofascist apologists states: "The state of Lebanon is being systametically dismantled by Israel." And what type of state is Lebanon? A state in disarray, infested with stateless Hisb'Allah fascists, using a supposed nation-state to launch attacks. Sounds like al-Qaeda in Afghansitan.

More drivel: "We all know that foreign investment and a (limited) multicultural mix of peoples are important to build a state & to share expertise & pass to the local muslim engineers in Lebonan."

** Oxymoron Alert **