Just like the real world, authorities are more frightned of combating Muslims than they are interested in protecting the people they serve.

Just look in any Muslim community in the western world and look at the protection police offer in lieu of Muslim violence, assaults, rapes, vandalism, murder, and geneneral civil disorder.

In most cases, they do nothing.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 14, 2006 12:43 PM

Just another reminder that this is not about Jews only.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at September 14, 2006 12:46 PM

Why do I find obvious that the islamofascists attack the God of Literature and Knowledge ?

Posted by: POITIERS-LEPANTO at September 14, 2006 1:04 PM

Since the muslims pelted the idol with stones, the Indians should have pelted the muslims with their shoes. I'm sure that would have made them stop.

Posted by: freewoman at September 14, 2006 1:27 PM

Islam is the idolatry of Muhammad. Just look at the cartoon riots over Islam's so called "perfect man". (Blech) I'm not in favor of idolatry but the Hindus never bother me plus I like the ones I've met. They never bother anyone except a few Christian missionaries in India. Muslim idolatry is my enemy

Posted by: dennisw at September 14, 2006 1:27 PM

Muhammad- "I have been made victorious with terror."

(from Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)

Posted by: dennisw at September 14, 2006 1:30 PM

Well Ganesh Caturthi is a 10-day festival celebrated mostly by Maharashtrian Hindus (most of whom can be described are virulently anti-Islamic) celebrating the Hindu Lord Ganesha ("Destroyer of Obstacles"). People make elaboprate decorations and turn their homes into mini temples with clay Ganesha statues. This festival culminates in immersion of the Ganesha statuesin the sea.. thus clay goes back to the nature frm where it came from...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at September 14, 2006 1:48 PM

Idolatory is a misnomer. Idolatry means worshipping a stone in belief that the stone itself IS God. Hindus believe that their "idols" are devices representing God.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at September 14, 2006 1:51 PM

If the government is unable or unwilling to enforce its own laws, someone else probably will. Nature abhors a vacuum. I'm sort of shocked that the Hindu worshipers did not return and go medieval on the mosque and its contents. Perhaps some of our Indian colleagues can shed some light on this.

Posted by: MP at September 14, 2006 2:06 PM

Just for clarification, in the original article,"police have mentioned in their FIR..."; from my own policing days, fir probably means field investigation report. Slainte, MP

Posted by: MP at September 14, 2006 2:18 PM

Which Crazy Clique does this remind you of?
( from Insane Clown Posse )

Warning: This is rated R for obscenity.

We be just another crazy clique, doing whatever to get us by
When we pumped up, you out of luck, bitch, I ain't gonna lie
Put your guards up, show them who really running the streets with them Calicos
All kinds of shit bitch you cant compete

Just another crazy clique to fuck around and bury ya
Taking care of ya
We scarier
Than malaria
I walk around your neighborhood like Frankenstien
Choking anybody I find
I'm taking mine

(Now Abu Hamza busts a rhyme:)
You mothafuckas can't get near it
Cause you fear it
Look at my glass eye, I'm sick like Lou Gerigh
I dunno judo, but I go KEE-YA!!!
Fuck you up so bad, a wheelchair couldn't see ya

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 14, 2006 2:31 PM

Police protecting the perps? Happens here too.
The police release a statement "It Has Nothing to DO With Terrorism"before they investigate an incident.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at September 14, 2006 2:32 PM

Wow, Plague - Didn't know you wuz a juggalo!

Posted by: MP at September 14, 2006 2:36 PM

MP - I don't think I am... ??? I just know those lyrics because I found them while doing research.

They are most appropriate for the craziest clique in da houz.... da houz a Islam or da houz a war... don't matter no how.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 14, 2006 2:41 PM

This attack on a Hindu celebration and the attack on the Catholic school in Kashmir are just the latest reminders of what Muslims think of other religions. Like a poster above said, this reminds us it's not just Jews who are targets of this cruel and intolerant cult of Mo.

We are all Infidels now.

Posted by: Proud Infidel at September 14, 2006 3:09 PM

"Islam is the idolatry of Muhammad. Just look at the cartoon riots over Islam's so called "perfect man". (Blech) I'm not in favor of idolatry but the Hindus never bother me plus I like the ones I've met. They never bother anyone except a few Christian missionaries in India. Muslim idolatry is my enemy"

Mohamed prevented Muslims from depicting him because he did not want to become and idol. He always said that he was just a man and that he would die like any other man. He delivered the message (God's word) and that's what people were supposed to listen to.

Fast-forward to about 10 seconds after he died and we have full idol status with full-on bloody riots whenever muslims are "offended". In the case of the Danish cartoons, the intent was not to poke fun at Islam or Mohamed but to poke fun at how the author couldn't get NON-MUSLIMS to do an illustration of Mohamed for his book. I guess those idiots just over-looked how INTENT is more important than outcome in Islam.

My sister-in-law and I were just talking about the diefication of Mohamed and the cartoons the other day. It's wrong. But you can believe that if you want(hey, who am I to stop you?) just as long as the fist of your beliefs end where my face begins! However, if you would like to over-throw our modern government so that you won't be "offended" anymore....well, then prepare to die.

Posted by: citycat at September 14, 2006 4:16 PM

This is just another incident inspired by American foreign policy. If we just stop supporting Israel it will all stop and we will all live happily ever after.

Posted by: Pelayo at September 14, 2006 4:50 PM

"This is just another incident inspired by American foreign policy. If we just stop supporting Israel it will all stop and we will all live happily ever after."

...just like we did before...

Bwaaahaaahaa!!!

Posted by: citycat at September 14, 2006 4:52 PM

Anyone who breaks a statue of Ganesh is no friend of mine ... oh wait - they aren't my friends anyhow ...

Posted by: drk at September 14, 2006 4:55 PM

Rasoolalshaytan

The 'wussification' is a more recent development - in the past, Hindus would fight fire with fire. But your comparison is somewhat asymmetric - a July 4 parade would be a very systematic and contained event, maybe at a fairgrounds, whereas a procession like the one described above would go from any part of the city to the beaches for the images to be immersed.

But you are right about wusses, first the 7/11 bombings, and now this, go un-answered. This implies that Mumbaikars, wittingly or unwittingly, are just asking for more. Wonder what the threshold is this time?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 14, 2006 5:33 PM

Throwing stones....its just so childish!

It's about time some of the big kids went round to this Mosque and taught the little rapscallions how to behave.

Although from what Infidel Pride has to say, it sounds like the local non mooselimb Mumbaikars dont have the muscle to go and do anything about it.

Maybe its too much of those environmental eostrogens, it doesnt seem to be effecting the local musselmen though.

Posted by: km at September 14, 2006 6:31 PM

Rasoolalshaytan: I'm with Infidel on this one. In 1947, Hindu mobs boarded trains and pulled down the pants of all the men on board, then killed anyone who was circumcised on the supposition that he was a Muslim. The Mahratas and Rajputs also showed they were capable of giving Muslims measure for measure, too.

I will also go on record that as a fundamental Christian, I think it shameful for humans, who bear the image of God, to bow before an elephant-headed statue. My difference with the Muslims, however, is that the conversion of the Hindus must be via the preaching of the Gospel, faith working in love (towards unbelievers as well as believers), and the Holy Spirit blessing the effort. Further, it is not right to destroy other people's property (here, the idol). If the idol of Ganesh is to be destroyed, let its owners do so once they are brought to Christ.

Finally, I suspect that before long, the Hindus somewhere in India will respond to this sort of provocation in kind. There were incidents in Gujerat not too long ago, after all; and Maharashtra is just next door to Gujerat (the Indian state, BTW, that produced the arch-pacifist Mohandas Gandhi, as well as the ant-Muslim train-burners of a few years ago).

Fundamental Kepha

Posted by: Kepha at September 14, 2006 7:15 PM

'To kill and to be killed in the way of Allah'- which verse or sura is that again? They HAVE TO do that, they only follow their 'religion!'
Never mind about the consequences, they attack the Hindu-'polytheists' with stones and when the dreaded 'backlash' comes, they scream like little piggies and call it 'oppression'- this is the pattern throughout history and Islamic conquest...

The police in that area is obviously Islamic or on orders to do anything to encourage more violence. Going after the stone-throwers would provoke more violence. Doing nothing and threatening the victims might cause that 'backlash' one way or another...

We'll see...

Jihad never stops!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 14, 2006 7:34 PM

Some of the comments, especially by Christian fundamentalists on this topic should be read by Hindus who visit Jihadwatch. They make it clear in no uncertain terms that they are against Hindus perceiving god in their own way. Many of them rail against idolatry while they go to church and pray before an idol of Jesus and a crucifix (the Roman symbol for punishing criminals), not to mention idols like a book (Bible), or a shroud that are considered sacred by them. The Christian fundamentalists cloak their desire to eliminate Hinduism in their rhetoric of "love". These Christians are intolerant of Hindus because we don't believe in their Jehovah and Jesus, just as the Muslims are intolerant of Hindus because we don't believe in Allah and Mohammed. Their objective is the same as Muslims, except the Muslims want to use violence to eliminate Hinduism, and the "loving" Christians want to achieve their goals through conversion. Until recently these people wouldn't have given a damn about Hindus, but some of them pretend to support the Hindus because their own hide is on the line. Those Hindus who believe in a broad infidel alliance should rethink their position.

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 14, 2006 10:44 PM

Until recently these people wouldn't have given a damn about Hindus, but some of them pretend to support the Hindus because their own hide is on the line. Those Hindus who believe in a broad infidel alliance should rethink their position.
Posted by: kafir citizen on September 14, 2006 10:44 PM

Dear kafir citizen,

As one of those Hindus who strongly believes that a broad infidel alliance is an absolute MUST if we hope to have even the slightest chance of defeating an enemy that endangers us all, I guess a response is in order here. I had a look at all the previous comments here and barring just the single posting from Kepha, I don't see what got you so worked up. I don't think it is right for you to assign motives to ALL the Christian posters here based on the views of just one poster. I do agree though that Kepha's comments are way off base here and definitely do not help in building a broad alliance.

Posted by: Razdan at September 14, 2006 11:33 PM

A few questions for some of our Indian posters--My knowledge of Indian geography is a bit sketchy after the major cities and regions--where is Tulzapur, Maharashtra? Is there a large Muslim population here? Do you think that the police were afraid of Muslim backlash (*not that this is an excuse*), or is it likely that the police themselves were Muslims (also not an excuse)?

From above: The Muslims were shouting slogans of 'Pakistan Zindabad'--of course I am familiar with "Pakistan", but does anyone know what "Zindibad" means?

RasoolalShaytan wrote:

If those cockroaches threw stones at a 4th of July parade her in America, we would have torn them from limb to limb.
.............

Wow! I'm not sure what part of the US you live in! I couldn't imagine many of my fellow Americans tearing someone limb from limb. I think popping them in the nose and holding them for the police would be enough. Of course, you have to hope the police here in the US wouldn't react the way the Indian police did--not such a sure thing anymore, sadly.

Posted by: gravenimage at September 14, 2006 11:52 PM

I will also go on record that as a fundamental Christian, I think it shameful for humans, who bear the image of God, to bow before an elephant-headed statue.
Posted by: Kepha on September 14, 2006 07:15 PM

Aside from the fact that such statements do nothing to help foster a sense of commonality in purpose when fighting the common enemy that aims to destroy all of us; they also show a very poor understanding of and lack of sensitivity towards symbols and ideas that differ from yours. I would urge you to educate yourself a bit more about Hinduism and Hindu symbols before you make such hurtful comments. Might I suggest, for example, the following site: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Symbolism_in_Hinduism.htm#Ganesha%20-%20The%20Lord%20of%20Beginnings

Posted by: Razdan at September 14, 2006 11:56 PM

From above: The Muslims were shouting slogans of 'Pakistan Zindabad'--of course I am familiar with "Pakistan", but does anyone know what "Zindibad" means?

Zindabad, roughly translated, means "Long Live". In other words, the Indian muslims shouting the slogans of "Long live Pakistan" show that they identify themselves more with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (i.e. the sworn enemy of India) rather than with their own home country of India.

Posted by: Razdan at September 15, 2006 12:13 AM

Given the long history of Muslim violence towards Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians, why did India let the Muslims back into India rather than telling them to stay in Pakistan?

Posted by: aynrandgirl at September 15, 2006 1:02 AM

Given the long history of Muslim violence towards Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians, why did India let the Muslims back into India rather than telling them to stay in Pakistan?

Excellent question and one that doesn't have a simple answer. One could as well ask the same question of the present Bush government which continues to allow Islamic influx (at record rates) into USA despite what happened on 9/11. I believe it arises from an unwillingness to face reality. Certainly in India there has been a strong effort to sanitize our history by purging our historical curriculum of all the unpleasant details about the Islamic conquest of the Indian subcontinent. Of course it didn't help to have naive leaders like Gandhi who believed in 'offering the other cheek' towards muslims. A good description of the "negationsism" towards its own history that prevails in India is given in the following book by Koenraad Elst: http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/negaind/index.htm

Posted by: Razdan at September 15, 2006 1:31 AM

"If the idol of Ganesh is to be destroyed, let its owners do so once they are brought to Christ. "

Wow thats some nasty racist speech. Kepha (and others who agree with him) you nasty piece of shit, please destroy your idol of Christ. Thats an order.

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 1:56 AM

I am grateful for your last two posts, Razdan. Makes good sense, with two important links for non-hindus to visit. Also, Vikrant's posts should also be lauded.

Aynrandgirl, I think the same applies to the US in answering your last question. Also, democracies appear to be a bit too lenient and foolish when it comes to "emigration" or "welcoming the enemy".

As a hindu, I am disappointed and appalled by some of the rubbish written on this thread regarding hinduism and hindus. We have a common enemy, and must stand together in this battle. Muslims seem to be united; it's us infidels that need to fight alongside each other if we are going to defeat Islam.

My worry is that after Islam is destroyed/terminated, what next? Will some Christians like Kepha and RasoolalShaytan call for a war against Judaism, Hinduism, Bhuddism? Kafir Citizen expressed this very well in his/her final post above. Pity that people like Kepha and RasoolalShaytan are too blinkered.

RasoolalShaytan, you obviously haven't met me to know whether I am a wuss or not... Just to give you an idea of my attitude concerning the matter, I certainly would not have stood around twiddling my thumbs if any ragheads had even attempted to deface anything I held dear. Perhaps you should also consider if Lord Jesus Christ was a wuss. Why did he turn the other cheek instead of shove a lightning bolt up his enemy's arse? My Gods kicked some serious butt in the Ramayan and the Mahabharatha, and I aim to follow their lead in the fight against Islam!

Cheers!

Vikash.

Posted by: Vikk at September 15, 2006 2:28 AM

Good to see several Hindus here speaking up about their right to worship in their way. As an atheist/agnostic, I support anyone's right to worship as they feel is right, within the limits of legality, secularism, respect for other faiths and lack of faith, and equal legal rights for men and women. And I expect them to support my right to be honest about my lack of belief. Islam is so disgustingly superficial about belief: if they can hold a knife to someone's throat and force them to say the words, they are actually satisfied that the victim is suddenly a muslim!! How superficial and dim is that!

"why did India let the Muslims back into India rather than telling them to stay in Pakistan?"

Indeed, wasn't the big division all about separating the two warring halves forever? A good idea, surely, and one we should be seriously studying for its good points.

Posted by: Lili at September 15, 2006 2:55 AM

this thread adds to my suspicion that all Semitic faiths being exclusivistic in nature do not take upon hinduism as their equal. not that hindus crave for equality or recognition anyways because we have always been alone fighting jihad both within and at our countries borders. It is sad to note that christians (some atleast) are going to use this opportunity to carry out religious conversions in my country. Probably once we manage to fight off the muslims as we have done time and again, we may have to fight fundamentals like kepha.
and kepha you piece of shit, if you think your god will punish me for being a hindu, then my god will punish you for being what you are.

Posted by: bulletkrishna at September 15, 2006 4:28 AM

Vikrant,
Just to put it right. Ganesh Chaturthi is not mostly celebrated in Gujarat. It is celebrated all over North India. In my city, the largest idol in the whole of M.P. was made, (over 70 feet). All in all there are over 500 "Chaturthi Mandals" in my city.

What never reached the English media was that near my city, muslims attacked one Ganesh Chaturthi procession. One Hindu died, 35 were wounded. In the backlash, there were no muslim deaths, but 76 were admitted to hospital. Then the government clamped down on the news. Unrest still in that city.

Kepha,
So you are one of those "My religion is better than yours" people eh ? Just because I hold something different sacred, you think that I am inferior, and must be brought into the fold ? You disappoint me, buddy.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at September 15, 2006 6:44 AM

Vikrant,
"Maharashtra" instead of "Gujarat".

Posted by: arjun.sevak at September 15, 2006 6:46 AM

One more "idol worshipping" Hindu signing in. With a deep bow to the 33 million Hindu gods and goddesses, I would like to make one simple point, if I may.

This one is dedicated with a very deep bow to the fundamentalist bigot in our company, Mr Kepha, who is not competent enough to understand symbolism.

Here is a brief note about Hinduism (the core philosophy of which is called Vedanta):

"At the highest philosophic level, Vedanta is Atheistic. There is no God, unlike the case in most other religions. There is only the impersonal Brahman which has an infinite set of attributes, and these attributes are coincidental with the attributes of the natural universe, including the
various stages of human development. Some of these attributes are symbolically represented by gods and goddesses which can then be worshipped by individuals, depending upon their needs and state of development. These gods and godesses are symbols and therefore only of limited utility. They are hooks that you can hang your concepts on.

No one with any degree of intellectual sophistication really believes that there are gods and goddesses.

Since they are symbols, they are 'used' and once they have served their purpose, they are discarded. That is why after any festival, the idols are taken to the river and ritually given back to the earth which was used to make them. Notice how an earthen pot with some leaves would serve the purpose of symbolizing the god worshipped. These symbols are sacred in as much as the ideas they represent are sacred. Far more important, Hinduism has the flexibility to permit individuals, as they develop intellectually,to discard those symbols that have outlived their utility.

Symbolism is comprehensible to intellectually sophisticated people. The theologically unsophisticated can, nonetheless, benefit from the wisdom of Vedanta by actually believing in the millions of gods and goddesses of Hinduism. Vedanta also has a monistic interpretaion, and it this philosophy which is the basis of the ancient religion of India from which all the later
ones evolved. Buddhism is another evolutionary step which has refined some bits of the Vedantic philosophy and spread it all over the world. But that is entirely another kettle of fish."

Sincerely,
Atanu
www.deeshaa.org

Posted by: atanu at September 15, 2006 6:56 AM

I think people here are misunderstanding the real point of Fundamental Kepha:

"My difference with the Muslims, however, is that the conversion of the Hindus must be via the preaching of the Gospel, faith working in love (towards unbelievers as well as believers), and the Holy Spirit blessing the effort. Further, it is not right to destroy other people's property (here, the idol). If the idol of Ganesh is to be destroyed, let its owners do so once they are brought to Christ."

It is not about "I'm right, you are wrong" or "I'm righter than you".
It is about the acceptable means to preach and convert people.
Until people don't use violence, they can preach as much as they like. Men and women will be free to choose what they prefer and they will be able to change their idea after as they feel fit.

Teological disputes are not interesting here, because all religions think they are the only True religion. What matter is that violence is rejected.

Posted by: painlord2k at September 15, 2006 9:35 AM

"It is about the acceptable means to preach and convert people."

There is NO acceptable way to convert people. Certainly not the Christian missionary 'preying' way. Everyone has a right to exist peacefully and without nasty interference from others.
Missionary activity is nothing but an offshoot or modification of white supremacy/ racism, practised under the guise of 'love'. I mean, how nasty can you guys get ? I saw this documentary on Discovery which showed the missionary activities in Africa, where white pastors baptised black Afriancs. The pastors were standing with a 5ft long wooden pole (in order to avoid touching the 'blacks'), which they touched to the lips of the squatting Africans & 'converted' them. It was like treating the Africans like animals. People show more respect to their dogs and cats. How nasty can the preachers of 'God' get. Given the rotten history of Christian missionary activity, it should be banned like Nazism was banned.

"I think people here are misunderstanding the real point of Fundamental Kepha"

You miss the point. Even after the blatantly rude and racist statements by Kepha, some people are supporting him. And wow, even the oh-so-concerned-about-Indians-Hindus 'Hugh' is so silent. And not a single one of the Westerners have commented against Kepha and defended his/her Hindu friends on this forum.

The other point is, conversions are not about religion, they are about power. Poor Jesus Christ must be rolling in his grave on knowning all the nasty things his followers have done in the name of 'love' and 'spreading the good word'!

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 11:38 AM

Painlord2k,

"It is about the acceptable means to preach and convert people.
Until people don't use violence, they can preach as much as they like. Men and women will be free to choose what they prefer and they will be able to change their idea after as they feel fit."

"Teological disputes are not interesting here, because all religions think they are the only True religion. What matter is that violence is rejected."

Please do not put all the balls in same basket.
Hinduism doesnt say it is the best or the only way. People like you and kepha are no different from muslims. They want to make the whole world theirs and you people yours. What foolishness is this. Isnt the whole problems in world due to the simple foolishness of "My mother is an Angel, but yours is a witch, so abandon her and embrace mine" !!!

In fact Hinduism is a word coined by arabs, it never declared it as a religion and never claimed that salvation or heaven or whatever hell people want is only obtained through its path. And an average hindu has absolutely no problem is praying to ALLA or JESUS or anyone for that matter. But it is difficult for us accept that not only mine only is right but yours is offcourse devilish, so abandon abandon..!!

Right to Convert is there !!!! Great my dear..!!
Have you read through millions of posting in JW.
Why do you kind of people in west cry for Islamic conversion in europe and other western countries. Before 9/11 wasnt there any islamic terrorism..?? We have been suffering it from eternity and west recognised it only on sept 11 , 2001 !!! Before that you were feeding it
by arming talibans..
Why do you cry that you are losing your judo-christian culture due to islamic invassion!! So you kind of people also feel the pain, when your culture is hijacked.. Then why cant we feel the same pain, when you people convert us with so called love.

In india conversion is done to poor innocent people in villiages using money from west. We are poor compared to you, but we too love our culture. The conversion is done in India by providing money to these poor, all charities are done here by missionaries only with an eye of conversion. Portugese did it in Goa using sword too. So my dear, dont force me to post links on
when exactly did some religions stopped using sword for conversions

If a hindu marries a christian he has to be converted to christian, (same for hindu and islam marriage) or else their love is void. Reverse never happens, and will never happen. Fools like you are no different from Bin laden, he atleast kills in a single shot, you eat up another culture that never hunts you and complaints when you get hunted.

If people like you are going to be there after this comming holocaust, I prefer this holocaust never ends, and it has to end only after the destruction of entire humanity. Because people like you will never let everyone to live peacefully.

Why dont you go to pakistan and preach your shit, and you will see if you are alive. In India you can do whatever u want, our govt will be their to support you, provided muslims are all dead.

My dear, have a brain.. Dont be so foolish.
Any way west has plundered us long back, we have no problems, but please lets us live happily too.

I have seen that there are many sensible people like Hugh here, but there are many zeolots too.

Oh GOD, who is the creator of this universe, if your kids cant live happily in this world, end this WAR only after the destruction of humanity.
Please..

-tachy

Posted by: tachy at September 15, 2006 11:56 AM

Tachy,

Well said !

"If people like you are going to be there after this comming holocaust, I prefer this holocaust never ends, and it has to end only after the destruction of entire humanity. Because people like you will never let everyone to live peacefully."

How true.

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 12:25 PM

The other point is, conversions are not about religion, they are about power.
Posted by: lazysusan on September 15, 2006 11:38 AM

Couldn't agree more with you on this. Having said that, I was somewhat shocked at your being so critical about Hugh just because he did not chime in on this discussion. I think we all have a right to criticize someone for remarks that they make, but I think it is very unfair to criticize someone for their failure to make a remark. God knows how many times I've not commented on a subject on JW even though I may have held strong views... I'd hate to think that others would assign motives to my non-comments. In any case, I respect Hugh tremendously and nothing he has ever written has ever given me an iota of discomfort.

Posted by: Razdan at September 15, 2006 1:11 PM

As one of those Hindus who strongly believes that a broad infidel alliance is an absolute MUST if we hope to have even the slightest chance of defeating an enemy that endangers us all, I guess a response is in order here. I had a look at all the previous comments here and barring just the single posting from Kepha, I don't see what got you so worked up. I don't think it is right for you to assign motives to ALL the Christian posters here based on the views of just one poster. I do agree though that Kepha's comments are way off base here and definitely do not help in building a broad alliance.

Aside from the fact that such statements do nothing to help foster a sense of commonality in purpose when fighting the common enemy that aims to destroy all of us; they also show a very poor understanding of and lack of sensitivity towards symbols and ideas that differ from yours.

Couldn't agree more with you on this. Having said that, I was somewhat shocked at your being so critical about Hugh just because he did not chime in on this discussion. I think we all have a right to criticize someone for remarks that they make, but I think it is very unfair to criticize someone for their failure to make a remark. God knows how many times I've not commented on a subject on JW even though I may have held strong views... I'd hate to think that others would assign motives to my non-comments. In any case, I respect Hugh tremendously and nothing he has ever written has ever given me an iota of discomfort.

Razdan

Fully agree with you. Since Kepha is the only one who called for a conversion of Hindus, I think any broadside attacks on Christians as a whole, like Kafir Citizen's above, is essentially a prescription for defeat. In every one of these countries, it isn't a mere Muslims vs Christians, or Muslims vs Hindus, or Muslims vs Jews; rather it is a Muslims+Dhimmi(Christians/Jews/Hindus) vs. anti-Islamic Christians/Jews/Hindus. As a result, if the latter category doesn't hang together, they'll be hanged separately.

I also agree with you on Hugh - just because someone doesn't weigh in on a topic says nothing about what (s)he really believes. Until that person weighs in.

Tachy, I've known Hindu-Christian marriages where the latter has converted, as well as ones where the former has. I have encountered Western converts to Hare-Krishna and ISCKON both here in the US, and in India, in Mathura. So spare us this moral equivalence between Muslims and Christians just on the basis of one bigoted statement above.

While Kepha's message may be unpalatable (and definitely unhelpful to the cause of overall anti-Islamic unity), anybody who doesn't want to listen to him can turn away, and there's nothing to suggest that he'll go postal on that person. Contrast that with the Jihadis, who would do anything to either convert or kill all of us, if they could.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 15, 2006 2:04 PM

"In any case, I respect Hugh tremendously and nothing he has ever written has ever given me an iota of discomfort"

Razdan, I dont know about the discomfort or lack of it. What bothers me is what is left unsaid, like Hugh always makes it a point to support Hindus AND give them advice (!), but has never criticized colonialism (when the topic came up)...as far as I know. Its like ok whatever happened has happened, we dont owe you guys an apology and we just assume you are with us, because you dont have a choice.

Colonials created a problem called Pakistan (with Indian muslims help), turned a blind eye to the terrorism in India until it hit them, and now their descendants 'advise' us on how to tackle terrorism, while never once acknowledging or apologising for Colonial rule nor for the vilification of Hinduism (plenty of that took place during British Raj and we still see their torch bearers like Kepha). Hence the omission of any comment from Hugh or other well wishing Westerners/Christians is glaring.

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 3:08 PM

continued...

turned a blind eye to the terrorism in India until it hit them---

---and not just turned a blind eye, but encouraged it directly or indirectly. Everyone knows that UK has a lot of terrorist cells...they harbored wanted criminals from other countries and now it has boomeranged upon them. USA always supplied Pakistan with arms and ammunition...

JW site is very clever that way that it makes UK and USA sound dumb, like they didnt know what they were doing all these years but thats not true is it ? All this JW activity is because Whites/Christians are now being threatened.

What goes around, comes around.

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 3:16 PM

JW site is very clever that way that it makes UK and USA sound dumb, like they didnt know what they were doing all these years but thats not true is it ? All this JW activity is because Whites/Christians are now being threatened.

What goes around, comes around.
Posted by: lazysusan on September 15, 2006 03:16 PM
----------------------------------------------------

If JW activity started because Whites/Christians are now feeling threatened so what? At least these Whites/Christians have come to the realization that ISLAM is THE problem... something which the vast majority of us Hindus have still to even acknowledge despite being on the receiving end of the stick for centuries. Yes the US and UK have done incredibly stupid and dumb things in the past... but so have countries like India. What could be dumber than India's policy of supporting the terrorist organization of PLO all these years while the Israelis were fighting the jehadists (with the stupid hope that garner muslim support against Pakistan)? Surely you don't hold yourself responsible for the stupid policies of the Indian Government... then why would you hold the Whites/Christians on JW responsible for the Dhimmi actions of their respective governments?

Quoting from Infidel Pride, who I think summed it perfectly, "In every one of these countries, it isn't a mere Muslims vs Christians, or Muslims vs Hindus, or Muslims vs Jews; rather it is a Muslims+Dhimmi(Christians/Jews/Hindus) vs. anti-Islamic Christians/Jews/Hindus. As a result, if the latter category doesn't hang together, they'll be hanged separately.

Posted by: Razdan at September 15, 2006 4:15 PM

Lazysusan? How appropro.

Marxist rhetoric and divisive agitprop are usually clear signs of intellectual laziness. Maybe you should find something better to do with your time than trying to encourage Hindu/Christian conflict. Your kind is almost as dangerous as the mohemmedans themselves, with your exhortations to fragmentation and attempts to widen whatever fissures may exist among non-mohammedan peoples.

But by all means, if you people want to play this "Hindus are idolaters"/"Christians are as bad as mohammedans"/"Oooh, those eeevil colonialists" bullshit, knock yourselves out. That kind of childish mental masturbation will get your heads cut off, and will not draw a tear from the rest of us. If you're all more interested in squabbling amongst yourselves, or encouraging such squabbling, than facing the common threat, then to Hell with you.

Posted by: Eisenhund at September 15, 2006 4:19 PM

Looks like Razdan beat me to it.

Two trains, parallel tracks.

Posted by: Eisenhund at September 15, 2006 4:21 PM

Eisenhund:

Where were you when Kepha made deliberate racist comments about Hinduism ? Dont you have anything to say to Kepha ? Is this the usual modus operandi of people like you ... accuse those you who dont agree with you as 'marxists' ? That shows your intellectual laziness. Do you think only 2 types of people exist in this world : marxist v/s non-marxist ? Perhaps it comes from your Cult-like fundamental Christianity value : Christian souls v/s souls to be saved, like Muslims belive Muslims v/s Kafir. You people need to get out of this mentality. Infact, you would be a Hindu too, living in US or UK for a long time and hence influenced by its blindly pro-West arrogant attitude.

Hey I would have had more respect for JW were it not for its Christian racists/fundamentalists and their silent supporters. To Hell with this nasty, hate mongering, white/western supremacist website.

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 4:43 PM

To Hell with this nasty, hate mongering, white/western supremacist website.

lazysusan, give us all a break! You are behaving far far worse than Kepha ever did.

Posted by: Razdan at September 15, 2006 5:04 PM

I was here when Kepha wrote his post. I was also here when our Hindu contributors wrote their responses. Then I saw you goading and blowing on the whole thing trying to make it bigger, throwing marxist buzzwords like "colonialism" and "white/western supremacist" in just to keep things interesting. Maybe you're not a Marxist. Maybe you are just a product of your environment, regurgitating terms that you heard from your friends on campus. Either way, I don't really care. You display the same churlish, petulant attitude we see from fanatics from all sides of an argument. You seek to divide rather than unite, blame rather than forgive and move on to the task at hand, beat a dead horse rather than mount a new one.

And BTW, I never said anything about being a Christian. That's just your kneejerk reaction, one typical of people who don't read what's written, rather just see what they want to see and make assumptions.

"Is this the usual modus operandi of people like you ... accuse those you who dont agree with you as 'marxists' ? That shows your intellectual laziness."

Not quite. Don't give me ammunition then complain when I use it to shoot holes in what you write. I probably know more about Herr Marx and his bent philosophies than you ever will, which is why I know they're crap and I can usually spot one of his gullible followers. You're quacking like a duck, so I call you a duck. You sound like every deluded freshman I ever had to endure at university in their Che Guevara t-shirts, cutting class for their "Down with Western Imperialism" demonstrations, so sure of their little truth, so eager to smugly cast blame at everyone else from their seat in the bleachers.

You need to grow up and get over your childish paranoia, quit making baseless assumptions about people you don't know, who've never made the kind of statements you ascribe to them, and quit trying to enflame conflicts that only make it more difficult to fight the true, common enemy.

And no, I don't have anything to say about Kepha, and contrary to what people like you like to think, silence is not an endorsement. I don't have to play by your rules and I have better things to do than respond to every post that piques my sense of self-righteousness. Nor do I have anything to say about tachy and his response, whether I agree with him or not. I had something to say to you because you didn't appear to have a dog in the fight. You just seemed to want to stir shit up. I have a problem with that. People like you are as bad as the enemy as you weaken efforts against them.

If you can't contribute like an adult, then please do go.
Those of us that you consider "Christian racists/fundamentalists and their silent supporters" (yeah, uh-huh) just because we call you on your nonsense won't miss you. Nor will, I'm reasonably sure, everyone else who comes here, of all persuasions, more in the interests of dealing with the greater conflict than arguing like toddlers in a sandbox over who gets to play with the shovel, oblivious to the rattlesnake in the grass.

Posted by: Eisenhund at September 15, 2006 5:58 PM

Razdan,

Beware of people who make you fight & criticize your own people. See, how everyone is quite over racist Kepha's remarks. While your inherent Hindu sincerety cannot bear bad words (nasty etc) against whom you think is your friend. I think this little incident proves a few things.

Posted by: lazysusan at September 15, 2006 6:00 PM

How arrogant and condescending of you, lazysusan, to assume that anyone made Razdan think or write anything. From what I've seen of him in the past, he can handle himself and doesn't need your pity or pat on the head.

Kepha made his comment and was answered by other posters far more reasonable than you, who did so without resorting to jargon, sweeping generalizations, and histrionics.

When you look up and can cover the sky with your hand, it's time to stop digging.

Posted by: Eisenhund at September 15, 2006 6:32 PM

IP,

I specifically mentioned the Christian fundamentalists who still believe in the injunctions of the Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com)and want to convert everyone to their one true lord. These people consider Hindus to be heathen and will try to convert them by hook or crook.
Since you live in the US you should research on the rhetoric and actions of Southern Baptist Convention, Adventists, Pentacostals and many other evangelicals, and their worldwide mission.

Do you believe that Kepha is the only who wants to see Hinduism eliminated?

Here are some examples of people doing exactly what Kepha is talking about (and I am sure you can use a search engine to find out more of the same):

http://www.joshuaproject.net/index.php
http://www.worldmap.org/
http://worldmap.org/maps/prepared/churchst.../india_ispd.jpg
http://christianaggression.org/

As I made it clear in the post above, the objectives of Christian fundamentalists and Jihadis is to eliminate Hinduism and replace it with their God and dogma; they only differ in their methods. And the reason those methods differ is that unlike Muslims a large part of Christians in the west have modernized and would not support any of their crusading bigots.

There are many theological similarities between the Christian and Muslim attack on Hinduism, and it would be equally sad if Hindudom fell by the bible thumping missionary as the bloodthirsty jihadi. So spare us your rhetoric in the name of an infidel alliance.

Oh, and achieving dominance through Christian conversion is cultural colonialism; it is too bad if that sounds Marxist to some people.

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 15, 2006 6:34 PM

Edit in the post above: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 15, 2006 6:36 PM

There are many theological similarities between the Christian and Muslim attack on Hinduism, and it would be equally sad if Hindudom fell by the bible thumping missionary as the bloodthirsty jihadi. So spare us your rhetoric in the name of an infidel alliance.

Oh, and achieving dominance through Christian conversion is cultural colonialism; it is too bad if that sounds Marxist to some people. Posted by: kafir citizen

If every bloodthirsty Jihadi, nay, every Muslim on this planet was converted to Christianity, or Judaism, or Hinduism, or anything like that, it would be a good thing. You may think it may be equally sad if every Muslim converted to Christianity just as much as it would be if every Hindu did; sorry, I never saw it that way. If every Muslim were to convert to David Koresh's Branch Davidian, or the Heavensgate cult, let alone L Ron Hubbard's Dianetics crusade, it would be an improvement.

All of the groups that you mention above are groups that one would have to actively seek to get to - in my 14 years in the US, I've never been accosted by missionaries. Nor have I ever felt like a second class person due to not being a Christian, the way many people who I've known who lived in the Mid East were. We celebrate Hindu festivals/functions here perfectly freely (if not to the same scale as in India), not only without fear, but with no embarrassment that local people will look down on us. I knew somebody who during his grandchild's 'annaprasan' in Qatar had to do it secretly behind closed doors due to fear of being busted for practicing a Mushrik religion.

This is in the US, where the question of whether this is technically a 'Christian country' or not is open to debate, but the same freedome exists in what once was the center of Christian intolerance - be it Italy, Spain, Austria and England. Try comparing any of these countries with even 'moderate' Islamic countries, such as Indonesia or Malaysia. Find out whether an average Hindu resident in Malaysia, where they just tore down a 100 year old temple in KL, is better off than one who lives in Rome or Madrid, let alone London. So take your 'similarities between the Christian and Muslim attack on Hinduism' and shove it.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 15, 2006 7:08 PM

Well, when Evangelicals start backing up their conversion efforts with train bombings and beheading videos, you let us know. Until Christians start threatening to kill you for not getting babtized, it seems a little early to be sharpening your knives and loading your guns to take out those terrible missionaries. If you don't like what they say, ignore them. In case you haven't noticed, mohammedans don't allow you that option.

Like I've said before, it's counterproductive to worry about what uniforms the other players in the dugout are wearing when the guy on the mound is winding up for the pitch.

And yes, complaining about "cultural colonialism" does sound like Marxist, or rather populist, rhetoric. It sounds like the same spiel regularly put out by Castro, Chavez, and other assorted tin-pots to deflect attention towards an "enemy" they know won't fight back rather than solving real problems.

Anyway, keep on. If some of you want to keep going back and forth about the arrangement of the deck chairs on this ship, fine. Feel free to join the rest of us against the mohammedan horde when you get over it. If they indulge you, of course.

Posted by: Eisenhund at September 15, 2006 7:08 PM

Infidel pride:

"Tachy, I've known Hindu-Christian marriages where the latter has converted, as well as ones where the former has. I have encountered Western converts to Hare-Krishna and ISCKON both here in the US, and in India, in Mathura. So spare us this moral equivalence between Muslims and Christians just on the basis of one bigoted statement above."

There is no moral equivalence between Muslims and Christians.

Muslims are devils themselves. As Eisenhund said, with missionaries atleast we can ignore them, that luxury is not given by Islam.

Regarding marriage conversion, I am aure you know of what I say. If not come to kerala, I will show 1 million cases and you know me atleast 10 cases in India. Are you ready for a challenge in real sense which involves physical effort..??

ISKON, the worst of hindu organisations I have ever seen... Until now I have heard one and only one cult (ISKON) that claims complete right over krishna (as per them the only supreme command of godhead). They are a curse to hinduism in that sense that inspite of their so called bhakti, they tends lure even intelligent people to "ONLY my GOD(krishna) is the real GOD all others are demy GOD". I am sorry that in case of ISKON, I have no grounds to talk against conversions.

But for me, any one who pulls the chord "My GOD is the only GOD" is the one responsible for the whole mess in this world, whether they use violence or not. Because it is quite a foolish and dangerous thought. It has caused quite a lot of blood shed in this world, from all religions who beleived so. I do not want to post explicit historical links, now that it is not anymore.

Be sure of one thing. Until, we love and celebrate peaceful diversity, of all the peace loving cultures of the world, this world will never be peaceful, it has never been for more than 50 years. Just a plants beauty is its stem, thorn, leaves and its flowers offcourse, and flowers have different kind of petals, we need to celebrate all diversities.

I am neither with so called hinduist or with any one who is of fundamental nature, but i beleive that fundamentalism has more to do with moral/spiritual/ethical violence than the physical one. Because the former will inevitably bring forth the later sooner or later.

I should say, that this talk should calm down to face the reality. Along with that people should never think that peace in this earth is acheived if we in some corner is happy, doesnt matter what happens somewhere else. This is no more true. Time will prove it to us. Just wait and watch the game...

Before any religion I am a human being devoted to this earth and universe, nothing more. I love to see all living happily, nothing more.

-tachy

Posted by: tachy at September 15, 2006 8:25 PM

"All of the groups that you mention above are groups that one would have to actively seek to get to - in my 14 years in the US, I've never been accosted by missionaries."

It is obvious that you are completely ignorant of the missionary activities in India. View the last link and do some research before you post your moronic comments. Your claim is that Christianity is better than Islam so Hindus should pay no attention to actions by Christians to obliterate Hinduism. That is the rhetoric of a person who has developed a tunnel vision about Jihad.

"Nor have I ever felt like a second class person due to not being a Christian, the way many people who I've known who lived in the Mid East were. We celebrate Hindu festivals/functions here perfectly freely (if not to the same scale as in India), not only without fear, but with no embarrassment that local people will look down on us."

Did you ever hear me claim that Hindus are persecuted in United States? That comment has no relevance to the issue at hand. And as far as I know the US is governed by a constitution not the biblical law. I have also mentioned that a majority of westerners have modernized and are unlike Muslims.

If you are stupid enough not to recognize the theological similarities between Christianity and Islam, and therefore a shared motivation to oppose heathen or kafir Hindus, albiet using different methods then you shoud take your ignorance and shove it up your ass.

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 15, 2006 8:29 PM

"Well, when Evangelicals start backing up their conversion efforts with train bombings and beheading videos, you let us know. Until Christians start threatening to kill you for not getting babtized, it seems a little early to be sharpening your knives and loading your guns to take out those terrible missionaries."

By that token, why do you worry about a peaceful takeover of Europe by Islam? As far as I can tell, the Muslims will become a majority in Western Europe without resorting to beheadings and train bombings. Does it make that anymore acceptable?
If not then don't expect Hindus to accept a peacful takeover of their country by Christians either.

Hindus did not pick a fight with Christians, it was the Christians who came to India and went about their mission of converting the Hindus by bribery, trickery, force and fraud. The idea of converting us "devilish heathens" is based on the same sort of intolerance as the zeal for conversion or dhimmutude of Islam.

"Anyway, keep on. If some of you want to keep going back and forth about the arrangement of the deck chairs on this ship, fine. Feel free to join the rest of us against the mohammedan horde when you get over it. If they indulge you, of course."

Let not even try to argue about who is serious about containing the mohammedan horde. I have been educating people about Islam and Jihad long before there was a 9/11 or a declaration of Jihad by Bin Laden, and many of us have contributed to anti-jihad efforts in a more tangible manner than just arguing on an internet forum.

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 15, 2006 9:18 PM

Regarding marriage conversion, I am aure you know of what I say. If not come to kerala, I will show 1 million cases and you know me atleast 10 cases in India. Are you ready for a challenge in real sense which involves physical effort..??

You needn't take the trouble - I don't doubt you. But here, in the West, in the citadels of Christendom, I've seen the cases I alluded to above. By contrast, I've never heard of Muslims converting and marrying Infidels, even less so in Islamic countries - doing so is against the law. That's my point above.

If you want to make the case that Keralite Christianity is more genuine, and that Christians in the West practise a twisted form of Christianity, go for it. Not too many will find that a persuasive argument.

"All of the groups that you mention above are groups that one would have to actively seek to get to - in my 14 years in the US, I've never been accosted by missionaries."

It is obvious that you are completely ignorant of the missionary activities in India.

Non sequitur. You were pointing to the activities of Southern Evangelicals, and I was pointing out that I encountered none of them during my years here. I never contested your claims about missionary activity in India.

And while they may wish for every Hindu to get baptized, anybody who wants to ignore them is at liberty to ignore them. Nor do Indian Christians champion the West over India, during, say India-England or India-Australia cricket matches, in the way Muslims support Pakistan.

View the last link and do some research before you post your moronic comments. Your claim is that Christianity is better than Islam so Hindus should pay no attention to actions by Christians to obliterate Hinduism. That is the rhetoric of a person who has developed a tunnel vision about Jihad.

On this one, I plead guilty. There are 130m Muslims in India. How many Christians are there? And how many of the Western Christian missionaries are funded to the hilt, in the way Muslims bankrolled by the Saudis are building mosques anywhere and everywhere?

You cleverly gloss over the 'different methods' of Muslims vs Christians, like it doesn't matter. Like Eisenhund alluded to above, when Christians in India start bombing Pune to Howrah trains, pelting rocks at Durga puja processions and beheading members of Ganga Sagar Mela processions that happen to pass a Church, I'll start championing the Dara Singhs of India who murder missionaries. Until then, that's a battle I'm not remotely interested in engaging in.

And if a peaceful conversion of Hindus by Christians is all you are against, why not make the Indian government outlaw conversions - in the same way Israel outlaws conversions away from Judaism? That's all it'll take - you won't need to overhaul your law & order apparatus to fix it, the way you need TADA and POTA to counter the Jihadis.

Did you ever hear me claim that Hindus are persecuted in United States? That comment has no relevance to the issue at hand.

You are the one who brought it up above:

Since you live in the US you should research on the rhetoric and actions of Southern Baptist Convention, Adventists, Pentacostals and many other evangelicals, and their worldwide mission.

I agree with you - it, and by implication, your quote below, has no relevance here. Similarly, the type of government the US has is irrelevant here, since you were complaining about Evangelical organizations wanting to wipe out Hinduism.

If you are stupid enough not to recognize the theological similarities between Christianity and Islam, and therefore a shared motivation to oppose heathen or kafir Hindus, albiet using different methods then you shoud take your ignorance and shove it up your ass.

You also need to drop the habit of conflating Westerners with Christians. A lot of Westerners are Agnostics or Athiests, and wouldn't be covered by any of your logic above. The question is about Western Christians, and the point I am making is that despite what the Bible says (BTW, I use the Quran section of the Skeptics Annotated Bible for references to the ugly side of Islam), most Christians down the ages have watered it down, so that the more strident verses, such as 'Blessed is he who takes his baby and strikes him against the rocks' isn't taken literally by anybody. These days, most of them (at least the ones here, I don't claim to know about the ones in India) are wrestling with issues like women priests, gay marrages, priest marriages, sex education, Evolution in schools and combatting anti-religious forces, and are unlikely to have the eradication of Hinduism anywhere near the top of their priority list.

That said, once Islam is eradicated, I'm more than happy to confront them once they take up armed Crusades against Hindus. But not otherwise.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 15, 2006 9:39 PM

"Non sequitur. You were pointing to the activities of Southern Evangelicals, and I was pointing out that I encountered none of them during my years here. I never contested your claims about missionary activity in India."

Just because you haven't encountered them it doesn't mean that such people don't exist, and they are most active in places like India, Nepal, Srilanka, etc.

"And while they may wish for every Hindu to get baptized, anybody who wants to ignore them is at liberty to ignore them. Nor do Indian Christians champion the West over India, during, say India-England or India-Australia cricket matches, in the way Muslims support Pakistan."

Your argument is that they are better than Muslims, which is irrelevant to the point of them being intolerant of Hindus. You can't lower the bar by comparing every group to the behavior of Muslims. Most conversions are obtained through a superiority of resources, control of institutions, or exploitation of some weakness of the victim.
The following site documents some of these methods (and you can research the rest).
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=NEWS&id=1146533982

Their favourite sports teams are not the issue here. Why do you assume that everyone needs to be a clone of Muslims?

"On this one, I plead guilty. There are 130m Muslims in India. How many Christians are there? And how many of the Western Christian missionaries are funded to the hilt, in the way Muslims bankrolled by the Saudis are building mosques anywhere and everywhere?"

Western missionaries are funded by individual donations to the tune of billions. On top of that the various state and central governments pay them because they are minority. With all that money they go around planting churches the same way as Muslims build mosques.

"You cleverly gloss over the 'different methods' of Muslims vs Christians, like it doesn't matter."

Not at all. I specifically made it a point to mention the different methods and also gave a reason for it. By the way, would you have any problem with peaceful conversions by Muslims in Europe, Canada, or US? I don't see Muslims lining up and stoning the Churchgoers on Easter sunday, or setting off bombs during the Thanksgiving travel, but you still consider them a threat to your country and culture, don't you?

"And if a peaceful conversion of Hindus by Christians is all you are against, why not make the Indian government outlaw conversions"

Can Christians get the dhimmi US or European governments to ban Islamic conversions? If not then same reason would apply to India. The example of Israel cannot be applied to major nations.

"Did you ever hear me claim that Hindus are persecuted in United States? That comment has no relevance to the issue at hand.

Not at all, I was pointing out the missionary activities in India, Nepal and elsewhere. You are the one who brought in the personal story about your life in the US. If you read my first post, you will see that I have never mentioned anything against US, just the evangelicals who seek worldwide hegemony.

"I agree with you - it, and by implication, your quote below, has no relevance here. Similarly, the type of government the US has is irrelevant here, since you were complaining about Evangelical organizations wanting to wipe out Hinduism."

It is not my claim, it is the claim of the Christian fundamentalists themselves (go to their sites, obtain their newsletters and pamphlets, and talk to the priests and missionaries themselves). The only reason I mentioned the type of government is to point out that your comfortable life is made possible due to the US Constitution and not biblical law.

"You also need to drop the habit of conflating Westerners with Christians. A lot of Westerners are Agnostics or Athiests, and wouldn't be covered by any of your logic above. The question is about Western Christians, and the point I am making is that despite what the Bible says (BTW, I use the Quran section of the Skeptics Annotated Bible for references to the ugly side of Islam), most Christians down the ages have watered it down, so that the more strident verses"

I have not confused anything. In my first post I mentioned Christian fundamentalists and not Western Christians in general. You don't need to tell me about the differences between Christian fundamentalists and their more moderate compatriots. I am well aware of the post-Christian phenomenon in Europe, as well as the demographic differences between the coasts and midwest, or north and south, or evangelicals and mainline churches, or the New Age movement in the US. It seems that you confused my points about Christian fundamentalists and took it to mean an attack against all the people of the West.

The Christian fundamentalists believe in the literal inerrancy of the Bible and therefore don't reject or "water down" anything when it comes to heathens. The links I posted above and the following ones are from groups which fund, support, and organize the conversion activities in India and elsewhere.

http://www.imb.org/core/default.asp
http://www.gmi.org/index.html
Here is a report on missionary activities dating back to the 1950's (things haven't changed much since then)
http://www.voi.org/books/ncr/

The above prove that eradication of Hinduism is one of the priorities.

It is up to you whether you believe in learning about and fighting the missionary menace, but many other Hindus will not submit to Christian intolerance for the sake of an anti-jihad alliance.

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 16, 2006 12:45 AM

"These days, most of them (at least the ones here, I don't claim to know about the ones in India) are wrestling with issues like women priests, gay marrages, priest marriages, sex education, Evolution in schools and combatting anti-religious forces, and are unlikely to have the eradication of Hinduism anywhere near the top of their priority list."

Your argument above is akin to saying that Muslims are busy flogging their women, engaging in honor killings, busy with Sunni-Shia-Ahmadiya disputes, fighting their own dictators, fighting Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq, engaged in disputes from Chechnya, Kashmir, Baluchistan....., and are unlikely to have an eradication of xyz on their priority list. Well we know otherwise in the case of Muslims, and we also know that plenty of Christian fundamentalists go from the West to the "Third World" to bring "good news".

Posted by: kafir citizen at September 16, 2006 12:53 AM

Sorry - this is JIHAD WATCH. You guys are so far off-topic that Spencer may delete the entire thread.

Eisenhund:

Good effort at trying to get everything back on- topic. I'm with you.

Guys:

Find another forum where you can debate these topics. Infidel Pride and Razdan, I know you tried, buddies, but your feeding classic troll behavior (derailing the thread for personal motives). Better to find another place to have this discussion, as I said.

I'm debating right now whether or not to alert Spencer to the off-topic waste of his bandwidth. Let's see if you guys can get back on-topic.

Posted by: CGW at September 16, 2006 8:24 AM