What would happen if someone burned an effigy of Mohammed in Vatican Square .. or anyplace for that matter?

Muslims Gone Wild!

Posted by: JanuaryMan at September 15, 2006 11:57 AM

from Neal Boortz:
The Vatican is in the hot seat this week over comments made by Pope Benedict XVI in which he essentially called into question the actions of the Prophet Muhammad by quoting from a book, saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Uh-oh....if you think this went over like a lead balloon, you would be right.

Muslims the world over are up in arms, with clerics calling on the Pope to apologize. What for? They say the Pope was promoting the idea that Islam might be violent. Oh really? Why such sensitivity to that idea? Because it might be true? Of course, whenever leaders in the Islamic community get backed into a corner over terrorism and jihad, they bring up The Crusades. Yawn.

The facts are what they are: Islam has become a violent religion. When atrocities are committed around the world in the name of Allah, condemnation never seems to come from those in the peaceful religion. The silence is deafening when, for instance, a suicide bomber blows up innocent women and children in Israel.

The truth hurts....even if it's the Pope saying it. Of course he'll wind up apologizing, political correctness being what it is.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 15, 2006 11:57 AM

this is exactly what we wanted. Muslim portraying their immense stupidity.

They are always so predictable...

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 11:58 AM

"Over/Under..." after the whipping-up Khutbas:

Nathan Detroit says 3 to 1.
Sky Masterson says 5 to 1.
Jimmy the Greek? Jimmy ain't answerin' the phone.

Posted by: Hugh at September 15, 2006 11:58 AM

Well, the totalitarian governments basically sign a pact with the devil (Islamist clerics) who then give these gory sermons to a largely uneducated and illiterate audience and incite violence like this. It works great for the dictator because all the rage is redirected toward cartoons/America/Israel or what have you and away from him. The message is "it's not because of my repressive regime that you're suffering. It's those Joooos!!!". Were it not for these sermons, most people in the Muslim world wouldn't have even known that the Pope spoke and wouldn't have cared much what he said if they did.

Check out some of the Friday sermons on MEMRITV - it'll make your blood run cold. Although, I think it's kind of funny that the Imam is usually screaming at the top of his lungs and looks like he's about to have a heart attack and when the camera pans the audience, half of them can't keep their eyes open!

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 11:58 AM

Put White Rhobes and Hoods on these guys, and the outrage would be palpable.

Posted by: Thunder Pig at September 15, 2006 11:59 AM

is this the Islamic version of the Mexican hat dance.??

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 15, 2006 12:00 PM

'Have Your Say' is much more balanced this time:

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=3822&&&edition=2&ttl=20060915170007

My comment was deleted by the moderator, but just look at many comments by Brits. They just may be getting it. That's a welcome change.

Posted by: libbysmom at September 15, 2006 12:02 PM

I don't understand. I was just told by Papa Smirk on T.V. that the values we share are "universal" regardless of what part of the world.

I guess freedom of speech isn't highly regarded all over the world. Might be few other freedoms, but maybe I am stretching.

Posted by: amana39 at September 15, 2006 12:03 PM

And they wonder why we trash islam as we do.

Do they ever realize how utterly foolish the rest of civilization sees them? I guess ignorance is bliss.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:03 PM

I remember Jimmy, he got into trouble for speaking the truth,:

On January 16, 1988, he was fired by the CBS network (where he was a contributor to the NFL Today program) after commenting to a reporter that African Americans were naturally superior athletes because they had been bred to produce stronger offspring during slavery: "During the slave period, the slave owner would breed his big black with his big woman so that he would have a big black kid—that's where it all started." Snyder died of a heart attack in Las Vegas, at the age of 76.

Kinda of like saying Muslims kill more often because they are bred to kill.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 15, 2006 12:05 PM

Benedict blunder shows he has failed to master media machine from Breitbart.com

Thank God. The last Pope's "mastery" led to this.

"Media machine mastery" is just a euphemism for being another multicultural politically correct puppet.

Long live Pope Benedict XVI!!!!! (and I'm not a Catholic)

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 15, 2006 12:06 PM

Neal,

It's not so much that Islam "has become" violent. It just never steadily PROGRESSED beyond violence. It did progress during periods in history (look toward the period closer to the end of the Ottoman Empire and its attempts to modernize) but it always seemed to regress faster than it progressed. The most recent regression is about 30 years old and it has been a very fast slide.

I agree with you about the Crusades argument. BIG yawn.

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 12:08 PM

Well, here we go again. Hold on! This is going to be a rough ride.

Posted by: johndoe at September 15, 2006 12:08 PM

someone bringing popcorn?

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 12:09 PM

WILL THEY START BURNING BIBLES?

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 15, 2006 12:12 PM

Libbysmom, I just read a lot of those comments. The muslims sure have a distorted view of history. It's just insane how they all claim islam is peaceful. Oh, the insanity!!!

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:13 PM

have you read the muslim saying "there are christians in arab land so they are totally respected".

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 12:14 PM

Fedup, that saying deserves a R-I-G-H-T. They say they're respected only because they haven't killed them yet. And the one that said it was never spread by the sword. Another R-I-G-H-T.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:18 PM

Freewoman, religion is what you make it. If this is what's passing for Islam, then it it is not at all peaceful. It's scary. With these people it's kill or be killed. These people are self-radicalising and they'll use any excuse. But Islam doesn't HAVE to be violent. That's the larger point.

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 12:20 PM

another NOTE on the BeBeCeera comments

you can "rate" a comment.

This one got 134 points while the average is 20

the muslim community proves again how "tolerant" it is becoming.

jonathan, cambridge, massachusetts

All the comments about being fed up with moslems are rated over 50. All the comments by moslems about how peaceful and tolerant they are are around 10.

This means a lot for the average feel in UK.

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 12:25 PM

I'm layin' 8 to 5 all the way. It's a foregone conclusion. The lastest in a Long Line of "atrocities" committed on the poor oppressed Muslims of the world, and I'm certain the Imams wont miss an opportunity to make political "hay" over this, that's their Job. I'm sure several actually died when the full impact of Pope Benedicts words struck them.(His words being so deadly) What a cruel Man. The Pope (To speak Truth in such an honest way), is an "Outrage". I expect to see another embassy burned, or what's the point...right? From now on, Expect to see at least one "atrocity" committed against the Ummah every month. Outrage over the truth...8to5.(A Lock)
CRU18

Posted by: WIDEAWAKE at September 15, 2006 12:25 PM

WILL THEY START BURNING BIBLES?
Posted by: KAOSKTRL

Religious leader Ali Bardakoglu said the Pope's comments represented what he called an "abhorrent, hostile and prejudiced point of view".

"Whilst Muslims might express their criticism of Islam and of Christianity, he argued, they would never defame the Holy Bible or Jesus Christ."

Well, that settles it, doesn't it?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 15, 2006 12:26 PM

"The facts are what they are: Islam has become a violent religion. When atrocities are committed around the world in the name of Allah, condemnation never seems to come from those in the peaceful religion. The silence is deafening when, for instance, a suicide bomber blows up innocent women and children in Israel.

The truth hurts....even if it's the Pope saying it. Of course he'll wind up apologizing, political correctness being what it is."

Posted by exsgtbrown

I'm sure you didn't mean it, but you say that Islam HAS BECOME a violent religion like it's somthing new. Islam has always been a violent, intolerant religion. Then you state "The silence is deafening when, for instance, a suicide bomber blows up innocent women and children in Israel." It might be deafening to some, but not to Muslims. Their definition of "innocent" is a hell of alot different than many others.

Also, don't look for Pope Benedict to apologize so quickly. I figure he might apologize if people got offended, but he won't apologize for saying what he did. He's a cleaver individual.

Posted by: Patriot_1/17 at September 15, 2006 12:26 PM

Well, Citycat, the mohammadons love the violence, so I doubt that they will change.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:26 PM

No wonder these animals live in squalor...seems that none of them work for a living. Achmed to Mohammed..what you doin today? I've not seen anything to burn or behead today what about you bro? Ahhhh something to burn stuff and flags about!!! Call up all the brothers in arms for a flag and effigy burning today and we can blame it on Israel and Bush!! Meet you at the town square or where the last bomb blew up the Shiites....The boss will understand! By the way Mo, who exactly is our boss?? Ahhh yes Allah!!
May the Force be with you...

What a worthless bunch of losers. I think someone should publish those cartoons again.

Posted by: Siciliano at September 15, 2006 12:27 PM

You know, it really isn't all that comforting to see how the religions of Christianity and Islam are bringing people of the world together.

Posted by: f.g. at September 15, 2006 12:30 PM

How's this for an apology?

"I'm sorry that you are such infantile, thin-skinned, violent, ignorant, uncritical, stupid, backward lemmings that you were offended by my remarks."

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 15, 2006 12:30 PM

I don't wanna be together with a bunch of fanatics adoring a pedophile.

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 12:31 PM

I saw this reported this morning on Deutsche Welle TV (in English). Here is their report

A wave of Muslim outrage swept the globe after Pope Benedict XVI linked Islam with violence, while reactions within Germany have been mixed.

Ayyub Axel Köhler, president of the German Council of Muslims, expressed primarily disappointment. "We are indignant at these remarks," he said. "Especially after the lengthy dialogues we have had. But we will continue an exchange, because we want to establish common ideological ground. That is our contribution to de-escalating the situation here in Germany."

"Now it is up to the pope himself to do what he can to mend fences with the Islamic world," he added, calling on the pope to "apologize to Muslims for the crusades, and forced christenings and persecutions of Muslims. That would be an admirable gesture for peace and understanding."

Meanwhile, Volker Beck from the Green party described the comments as "bizarrely one-sided and historically ignorant."

But Bavarian State Premier Edmund Stoiber came to the pope's defense. "His message that faith and religion should never be tied to violence is exemplary," he said. "Against the backdrop of today's hostilities, his unambiguous rejection of religiously motivated violence is highly topical and deserves to be taken seriously all over the world."

Outrage

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The pope says he did not mean to offend

Stoiber's tolerance is not shared elsewhere. In India, the head of the minorities' commission said the pope sounded like a medieval crusader.

"The language used by the pope sounds like that of his 12th century counterpart who ordered the crusades," said Hamid Ansari, chairman of the National Commission for Minorities.

And in Gaza City, a grenade exploded outside a Christian church, although there were no casualties or damage.

Outgoing Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya said the head of the Roman Catholic Church should "stop attacking Islam."

"These remarks go against the truth and touch the heart of our faith," Haniya told reporters after the main weekly Muslim prayers in a Gaza mosque. "The pope should revise his comments and stop attacking Islam, which is the religion of more than 1.5 billion people in the world."

The pope made the comments in a complex speech in the German city of Regensburg on Tuesday, implicitly denouncing connections between Islam and violence, particularly with regard to jihad, or "holy war."

His official spokesman said later that Benedict respected Islam but rejected violence motivated by religion.

Unabated anger

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Ali Bardakoglu, Turkey's top Islamic cleric, asked the pope to take back his remarks

The explanation failed to quell anger across the Muslim world.

The Pakistani parliament Friday unanimously called on the pontiff to take back his words.

"This house demands that the pope should retract his remarks in the interest of harmony between religions," said the resolution passed by the National Assembly of the overwhelmingly Muslim country.

"The derogatory remarks of the pope about the philosophy of jihad and Prophet Mohammed have injured sentiments across the Muslim world and pose the danger of spreading acrimony among the religions," the resolution said.

The Pakistani foreign office also waded into the row, saying the pope's words would undermine international efforts for peace between religions.

A member of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board also slammed the pope, saying his words were "nothing but blasphemy," and called on Muslims to "exercise restraint and not lose their cool."

In Indian Kashmir, where an Islamic separatist insurgency has raged since 1989, the Muslim League group called a day-long strike Friday.

More serious than the cartoons

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Pope Benedict has been unfavorably compared to his predecessor (pictured)

The Muslim Brotherhood, the leading opposition force in the Egyptian parliament, said the pope's comments were more serious than the cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed whose publication in European newspapers caused outrage this year.

"I foresee an extreme reaction to the pope's words, which harm Islam more than the cartoons because they come from a leader who represents millions of people and not just from a journalist," said a senior official of the group, Abdel Moneim Abul Futuh.

In Iran, top cleric Ahmad Khatami said: "It is a pity that the leader of the world's Christians is so uninformed about Islam and speaks so rudely."

A powerful Sunni cleric in Iraq urged the government to expel the Vatican's representative over the comments.

"Do not ignore these remarks and expel the ambassador of the Vatican," Mahmud al-Issawi said in his Friday sermon.

And in Britain the Ramadan Foundation compared the pope unfavorably to his predecessor John Paul II.

"The late Pope John Paul II spent over 25 years to build bridges and links with the Muslim community. He showed the world that its perception of Islam was false and that we are peace-loving people," it said.

Two comments: Although an atheist, (actually an apostate Catholic) I have been a fan of Pope B16, as regards his steadfast attitude towards Islam, thus I am disappointed that he relented and apologized. Secondly take not of the last two paragraphs the Muslims really like Pope JP II, but of course considering that he Debased himself and betrayed his faith by kissing the Qur'an

Posted by: Nariz at September 15, 2006 12:31 PM

Those who criticize Islam evidently are not permitted to use the very words of the Qur'an, Sunnah, and the example of the Prophet in the Sira to point out the sources of the violence. We are called "racist bigots" for doing so. Which race? Islam is implanted within every ethnic groups and race upon this earth. Additionally, for each race and ethnic group there are other religions in evidence. So, does that mean we hate ourselves as well?

Here is another example of cognitive dissonance. If we quote the Qur'an, Sunnah, and deeds of the Prophet (Sira)to point out the source of the violence, are not our Muslim interlocutors committing blasphemy by either denying those words or our truthful use of them?

Posted by: Fred at September 15, 2006 12:33 PM

""apologize to Muslims for the crusades, and forced christenings and persecutions of Muslims. That would be an admirable gesture for peace and understanding.""

someone tell this stupid mohammedan that the other pope already apologised for the crimes of the church.

It's not that EVERY pope must do it. Once is enough.

And where are the apologies of the moslems for 1400 of just being themselves?

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 12:34 PM

This is an important development. I respect the pope for saying something that he believes in and doesn't tip toe around the facts BUT, this opens up a new chapter in the war on terror. This could cause even moderate muslems to feel threatened by catholics world wide and attack their interests. Lets pray this don't happen but with moslems, anythings possible.

Posted by: Purple Haze at September 15, 2006 12:36 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213930,00.html

This is the story relating to the photo (not fauxto this time). I particularly enjoyed this quote from the article:

"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.

Well, doesn't she just prove the point that it is intolerant since she states that just by someone describing Islam in a way that Moslems don't like will incite them to violence?!?

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at September 15, 2006 12:36 PM

"The facts are what they are: Islam has become a violent religion." exsgtbrown, quoting Neil Boortz

Correction in order here: Islam "has not become a violent religion." It was so from the beginning. Mr. Boortz needs to get up to speed on this, as he has not read the history of jihad conquest and has no working knowledge of the Qur'an.

Posted by: Fred at September 15, 2006 12:37 PM

Finally, a head of state has the courage and integrity to expose the demon and all hell is let loose. This could turn the tide in a big way. History is a series of catalysing moments and this is one of them. It is potent and momentous.

Posted by: johndoe at September 15, 2006 12:37 PM

should revise his comments and stop attacking Islam, which is the religion of more than 1.5 billion people in the world."......
posted by Nariz

Someone should question this guy on how many of those 1.5 billion actually CHOSE to be a muslim, and how many of those 1.5 billion would love to LEAVE islam with their lives.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:37 PM

Oh.

One point five billion.

Right.

And which country did they recently "spread by the sword the faith that" they preach to get to that number?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 15, 2006 12:38 PM

Islam, which is the religion of more than 1.5 billion people in the world."......

So that means that there is a good 4.5 billion sane people that have nothing to do with a fanatic cult of death. Hey moslems, you are a minority.

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 12:39 PM

Purple Haze

Are you suggesting that we should ignore the sources of the violence in Islamic scripture, tradition, and the example of the Prophet? The jihadis correctly interpret their religion. "Moderate" Muslims need to know what they are up against, and insulating them from their own scriptures' injunctions is not a helpful strategy. You leave the field open to the clerics and activist jihadis to bring more of the "moderates" in line with al illah and the Prophet. I am sure the chimerical "moderates" are hardly influential precisely because they fear their own co-religionists more than they respect the truth.

Posted by: Fred at September 15, 2006 12:40 PM

Well, out of this black day when Oriana Fallaci has just passed away - maybe there is just a glimmer of hope - the first Catholic Pope who is not (in Oriana Fallaci's own words) 'fornicating with Islam.' Remember when Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran in the interests of 'tolerance and understanding'. Don't get me wrong, even though I am not Catholic, I have a great deal of respect for the late Pontiff, but to be kissing the very book that curses Christians and Christianity - well I find that a bit much to swallow I'm afraid. At least this Pope has woken up to the threat that exists in Islam, and he seems less afraid to speak his mind than other high profile figures, which is a good thing, even if what he says is still very mild.

Posted by: I predict a riot at September 15, 2006 12:41 PM

Wow! Prayers are over so it's time to raise some hell outside the masjid. What better way to pass the afternoon when you live in a dusty dry, god forsaken hole with no hope and countryside decimated by 1300 years of Mohammedism.

Posted by: detocquevilledisciple at September 15, 2006 12:44 PM

Purple Haze, those muslims who "fear" Catholics
are idiots. There is nothing to fear from Christians unless of course, one can't stand hugs. The muslims are grasping at straws. They don't want islam's brainwashed to learn the truth about the cult.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:44 PM

An especially nice picture of a nice Muslim protester:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/223870/5_26_091506_pope_protest.jpg

Posted by: george_rem at September 15, 2006 12:46 PM

OMG, George-rem that guy needs to see allah (in hell) quick. He looks insane.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 12:49 PM

Havent seen all of it yet

Some nice quotes here

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060915/capt.isl10209151348.pakistan_pope_isl102.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20060915/i/r2741954457.jpg

And this nice story

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060915/ap_on_re_mi_ea/pope_muslims_9

Turkish lawmaker compares pope to Hitler By SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer

ANKARA, Turkey - A Turkish lawmaker said Pope Benedict XVI would go down in history "in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini" for remarks he made about Islam. Meanwhile, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the remarks.

Posted by: Bill A at September 15, 2006 12:51 PM

HENRY, Islam certainly does NOT have to be violent and intolerant. The entire dhimmi system was revolutionary for its time. At the time, Christians would just force conversion or slaughter. But that was then and now the concept of dhimmi is both outdated and not practiced with the benovalance it should be. Democracy with separation of religion and state should replace it.

You have clearly not read the Koran (or you've cherry-picked your passages) and you are most likely also confusing Koran and Haddith. Not that this would make you any different then most Muslims, unfortunately. Islam's history is no bloodier than the Christian history. Check out Bernard Lewis' history "What Went Wrong" - it's only about 160 pages. But that's not even the point. History is history and we are no longer living in the year 1095. Instead of modernizing and accepting (or even KNOWING about) Age of Enlightenment principles, the Muslim world hangs on to centuries old dogma and reads STORIES of conquest in the Koran as COMMANDS for conquest (bloody conquest, no less). This makes them unable to compete with the rest of the world and basically and they start looking for scapegoats. So, they've turned into modern-day Nazis.

But this was not the Islam I was taught and not the Islam I teach my kids. I was taught (and now teach) that, like any religion, it is a personal communication with God - not a political theory and never to be forced on anyone. Period. Incidentally, I'm not offended by the Pope's remarks. It's the Muslim clerics themselves who perpetuate Islamic violence and then scream bloody murder when they're called out for it. How can you sceam "Religion of Peace" and bomb people at the same time? Laughable. The Pope should not apologize - he should point that out their hypocracy to them.

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 12:54 PM

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20060915/i/r2741954457.jpg

'Jihad is hump of Islam'?! WTF is that supposed to mean?

Posted by: george_rem at September 15, 2006 12:55 PM

another encouraging sign about Pope Benedict that seems to be forgotten, is that last July he refused to label Islam "a religion of peace."

I am devout Catholic and i believe that when this world war escalates, Vatican City will be destroyed. Maybe thats what it will take for tolerant, appeasing Catholics to finally defend their faith.

Posted by: freedomfight11 at September 15, 2006 12:56 PM

Someone should send a RPG down his throat.
Don't ANY of those sandrats ever work for a living? They give pathetic a new definition.
Time for another round of cartoons.
I hope the Vatican is at code red....

Posted by: Siciliano at September 15, 2006 12:57 PM

citycat,
This is islam, by the rules, straight down the line. It is not peaceful never has been. They are not self radicalizing, they follow a strict code of behavior. They don’t need an excuse for violence, it is required.
I have been searching for one that doesn’t look insane. No luck so far.
20 to 1 the Pope doesn’t apologize.

Posted by: tgusa at September 15, 2006 12:57 PM

check out the "jihad is war against terrorism" sign in this one

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060915/capt.isl10209151348.pakistan_pope_isl102.jpg

Posted by: Bill A at September 15, 2006 12:59 PM

So Citycat, can islam reform?

How do you get around the scientific parts of the koran, such as , people come from blood clots, semen from the spine, mountains hold down the earth, the world is flat, the fly's wings, with your children? Do you teach them that modern science is right and the koran is wrong? And if the koran is the immutable word of allah........ I am curious.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 1:03 PM

Tgusa,

"This is islam, by the rules, straight down the line. It is not peaceful never has been."

I completely disagree with you. Any religion is defined, IMO, by how it's practiced. There is mercy in the Koran, there is repentance, forgiveness and respect. If you choose to ignore those passages, then it's violent, hateful and disgusting.

You've never met one that doesn't look insane because if you saw me, you wouldn't think I were Muslim.

The Pope shouldn't apologize. The Islamic religious leaders are choosing to drive their constituancy into violent conflict with the values of the civilized world. They cannot call that peaceful. I hope the Pope points that out in lieu of an apology.

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 1:08 PM

Muslims outraged again. What's it about this week? These people even get outraged about the steps taken by non-Muslims to avoid being blown up by them.

Posted by: wallyUK at September 15, 2006 1:15 PM

Wanna bet the State Department will express 'regret' over the Pope's statements?

Posted by: george_rem at September 15, 2006 1:17 PM

a few things...

1. May God Bless Pope Benedict XVI, and please give him the strength not to apologize, and to elaborate more intently on the subject.

2. Once again, Muslims bitch and moan, burn things, and threaten... but I haven't heard one iota of information from Muslims to prove the contrary to the Pope's, or Emperor Paleogalo's (sic?), remarks.

3. Although Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran, he did so as a man of our God, trying to bring humankind together. He did not denounce, or betray his God (as the Fox reporters did.) Unfortunately, he didn't understand, or shaded the truth behind Islam.

4. More importantly, for his time, he did understand the evils of communism, and the USSR, for which he played an enormous part in the defeat of.

5. Thanks to Pope Bendict XVI, maybe the world will see the true evils of Islam, as they act like a bunch of idiots (as usual.) Unfortunately, the free world doesn't believe the U.S. because they have been blinded by political correctness, but the Pope reaches globally.

6. To the Muslim people: "You can't handle the truth!"

7. I think it's time the Mohammed Cartoons get plasted all over the place.

8. Thinking of going as Mohammed with a Bomb on my head for Halloween.

Posted by: Gotham at September 15, 2006 1:19 PM

Compare this with how Americans spent the 5th anniversary of 9/11. Quiet mourning, and still a lot of "why-do-they-hate-us" and "how-could-we-make-them-like-us-more" talk.

When was the last time Christian (or Hindu, or Buddhist, etc) mobs chanted "death to Muslims", "death to Palestine", "death to Pakis", "death to Arabs" etc.?

Somehow, there wasn't. Not even after any brutal jihadist attacks against the Infidels.

Somehow there are always, for any reason at hand, Muslim mobs chanting death to any group of Infidels they manage to recall at the moment.

If the wide audience doesn't start getting it now, they never will.

Wouldn't it be time that Muslims start asking themselves the "why-don't-they-like-us"-question?

Posted by: rahel at September 15, 2006 1:21 PM

It amazes me that all of these "moderate" muslims talk about how they want dialogu and peace and understanding while simultaneously critisizing just about every aspect of western/American/Judeo-Christian life and values. Yet the minute that someone implies that Islam might have to change its violent, hateful ways, they cry "bigot", demand apologies and immediately compare the speaker to Hitler.

Who can take their pleas for "dialogue" seriously any more?

I really hope that the Pope doesn't back down on this. He is initiating EXACTLY the type of dialogue that this world so desperately needs to engage in.

Posted by: Professor PyroSkank at September 15, 2006 1:22 PM

citycat said:

"Freewoman, religion is what you make it."

I don't agree. Religion has inherent structure to it, it involves a set of ideas. It is not infinitely flexible.

Regarding Islam in particular, my understanding is that the Koran (though it may be Hadith, or may be scholarly tradition, I have only started studying relatively recently, and I am still learning) states that older verses "replace" earlier verses when the two are in conflict. My understanding is, further, that context and scope must be taken into account when interpreting a verse (as is the case for any meaningful real-world piece of human language).

This ends up creating a delineation of what you can make of religion if you accept that Holy text, and makes it possible to talk about ideas and actions stemming from them being either in line with a given religion or contrary to it (much as this inconveniences political strategists like James Taranto).

You also say: "But Islam doesn't HAVE to be violent. That's the larger point."

I would very much like evidence of this. If it is possible to hold the Koran as infallible, and to silmutaneously hold that Islam isn't violent, well, I would like to know what sort of solid technical theological interpretation can yield this. Such a technical analysis would make a wonderful book with the potential to combat ideology-based violence in the Muslim community, saving the lives of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Is it possible to write without distorting language, scope, context, and Koran-founded or reliable-Hadith-founded Islamic principles of interpretation?

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at September 15, 2006 1:23 PM

Muslims murder 3,000 innocents in New York and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 202 tourists in Bali and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 333 schoolchildren and their teachers in Beslan and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 292 innocents, mainly Kenyans and Tanzanians at two US Embassies and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 241 US and 58 French peacekeepers in Beirut and expect no criticism.

Muslims fire 4,000 Katyusha rockets into Northern Israel killing over 50 innocent civilians and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 52 in London and 191 in Madrid and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 200 in Mumbai and expect no criticism.

Muslims behead Western hostages in Iraq, Buddhist monks in Thailand and Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia and expect no criticism.

Muslims murder 500,000 in Darfur and expect no criticism.

Muslims regard Jews as 'sons of pigs and monkeys', and threaten to nuke Israel and expect no criticism.

Muslims force women to wear hideous sacks and expect no criticism.

Muslims danced in the streets and handed out sweets to their kids to celebrate the 911 atrocity, and still expected no criticism.

Muslims have carried out almost 6,000 fatal terrorist atrocities since 911, and countless thousands since their catalogue of murder began in 623 AD and expect no criticism.

But if a Pope dares to tell the truth about Islam or Danes publish cartoons about Mohammed, then let the outpourings of hate begin.

What a barbaric, gruesome, bitter, satanic, backward and twisted cult of death Islam is.

Good on yer, Benedict.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at September 15, 2006 1:29 PM

the readings are from 14th century and still relevant today! not much progression here then.

of course the rioting, burning effigies,threating violence, etc will endear us to them much more!!
sad fools.

i guess islam will implode from within. too any double standards.

today the pope has opened a lot of eyes.& prompted a lot of questions this can only be a good thing.

Posted by: alwaysinfidel at September 15, 2006 1:29 PM

It turns out the the pope's mealy mouthed words were actually fighting words. The depth of the Muslims' false grievances have been, and are, astonishing. Perhaps now, that Jews and Israel are not the only ones being attacked, the irritating hypocrisy of the Muslims will be made clear by what's left of Rome's followers? The question is, unlike President Bush who has the muscle to back up his threats, that were implicit in his September 11, 2006, address, Rome has no army. The French, Spanish, etc. have clearly shown that they are cowards that will incite the Muslims against Jews and Israel in the false hope that Islam will leave them be. Not much chance of that; but I say the euro-trash and the Muslims deserve eachother.

Posted by: Lance at September 15, 2006 1:29 PM

"another encouraging sign about Pope Benedict that seems to be forgotten, is that last July he refused to label Islam "a religion of peace."

I am devout Catholic and i believe that when this world war escalates, Vatican City will be destroyed. Maybe thats what it will take for tolerant, appeasing Catholics to finally defend their faith."
Posted by: freedomfight11

The more I have studied Islam and the teachings and the live of Mohammed the more I truely believe that Satan is in the mix.

mrsmomomoto, that is correct and the verses in the Koran talking about PEACE and COEXISTANCE with others of THE BOOK (Jews and Christians) were written BEFORE the teaching of JIHAD and conversion by the sword.

I HAVE lived in an Islamic Republic and I was never so happy to see crosses on steeples as when I was at last "home" again. It is admirable that many devote Muslims DO live their faith so fully, something I vagely remember my grandparents doing.

Posted by: BuckeyeSandy at September 15, 2006 1:30 PM

citycat said

now the concept of dhimmi is both outdated and not practiced with the benovalance it should be

Okay, stupid me, I don't have better ways to spend my time, so I'll feed the troll.

Dhimmitude is "outdated"? So, the immutable word of Allah was true 1,350 years ago, but not anymore? When did the word of Allah become "outdated"?

And benovalance (sic)? Dhimmitude involved not being allowed to have any visible sign of worship (jewelry, prayerbeads, skullcaps, etc.) in public. They had to supplicate themselves as they paid the jizya, and in order to feel "subdued", the Muslim taking their money had to strike them. At any time and under any pretense, this "benevolant" dhimmitude could be (and was) revoked, leading to the other two choices: forced conversion or death.

you are most likely also confusing Koran and Haddith

To which sect do you belong, that does not accept the hadith and surah as representing the life of Allah's Prophet, Muhammad, the Perfect Man that Allah said was to be emulated for all time? The Qur'an may have precedence over the hadith and surah, but all three are in agreement that violence towards non-Muslims is mandated by Allah, and any of us here can quote the relevant verses.

Islam's history is no bloodier than the Christian history.

What's that thing called, when comedians spray the beverage out of their mouth in surprise? Insert one of those here.

like any religion, it is a personal communication with God - not a political theory and never to be forced on anyone

Huh? Are you sure you are a Muslim?

Qur’an 4:91 “You will find others who, while wishing to live in peace and being safe from you to gain the confidence of their people; thrown back to mischief headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace besides restraining their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear sanction and authority.”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

And so on and so forth. We've got pages of these quotes if you're interested. It's hard not to "cherry pick" when you're picking from a cherry tree, but maybe you have figured out how to pick plums from a cherry tree? The Qur'an is what it is; you seem to be the one choosing which parts you want to accept, and which parts you want to reject.

Do you practice your version of Islam in public, or do you practice it only while hidden and in fear of being found out by the "real" Muslims? No-one is denying that some people who identify themselves as Muslims would like to reject some of the violent sections of the Qur'an. But that is not the point.

Wasn't CityCat the moniker of another (non-Muslim) JW/DW poster a while back?

Posted by: special_guest at September 15, 2006 1:42 PM

Freewoman,

How do I get around the scientific parts of the Koran? The same way I you probably get around creationism with your kids if you are a Christian (or a Muslim, for that matter). God didn't LITERALLY create the world in 7 days. Evolution, for, example, is not in conflict with God being the creator. Who created evolution? Plus, there are language issues in the and translation problems from the 7th century to modern language and from Arabic to English. So was it really a clot or are we talking about babies developing in the womb with a placenta?

IMO, Islam makes science very easy. The first Surah of the Koran commands Muslims to learn. The Koran also tells Muslims to "listen to the Scientists". You are supposed to learn and progress through scientific research. After all, learning and progress is ordaned by God so that his creation (man) has a way to discover the world that God has created and improves human lives. Global jihad, on the other hand, creates nothing and teaches nothing. Thus, I consider global Jihad anathema to Islam.

Also, all the Christian prophets - including Christ - are prophets in Islam as well. In fact, the only difference is that Christ is not a diety. But did you know that Muslims believe that when the end of the world comes it will be Jesus coming to take pious to the kingdom of God and not Mohamed? Islam also teaches that no prophet is more important than any other. So why should I ignore Christ and only pay attention to Mohamed? So, yeah, there's absolutely NO religous reason why Muslims can't live without violence and conquest.

Although, I have to say that Islamic clerics in Saudi Arabia have ABROGATED the Koran's passages of mercy. That's the real problem. The clerics have given them a religous reason (which they have no right to give). That's like the Pope cancelling the New Testament. So, now they're teaching only KILL KILL KILL. I'm sorry, I don't call that "Islam".

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 1:43 PM

citycat,

Believe me the real spirit of this blog and its community is to root for people like you, the peaceful muslims. You must admit however, that when it comes to confronting your own fellow muslims who in fact support jihad, you are facing an uphill battle convincing them of these things that you say here. Moderates are intimidated into silence and have zero impact on halting the advance of jihad.

As you say, religion is defined by how it is practiced, and from the objective observer's eyes, Islam is a war machine attempting to camouflage itself as a religion. Your efforts to change that are far more appreciated than your efforts to convince us that we are being deceived by our own eyes.

Posted by: Jan III Sobieski at September 15, 2006 1:44 PM

This AP image is making the rounds.

I wondered for a moment where the Screaming Old Lady famously photographed doing her schtick in different places in Lebanon was.

But it's an AP photo... maybe she's under contract with Reuters.

Posted by: MarisolJW at September 15, 2006 1:48 PM

Hugh,

Sky once said "On the day when I left home to make my way in the world, my daddy took me to one side. 'Son,' my daddy says to me, 'I am sorry I am not able to bankroll you to a large start, but not having the necessary lettuce to get you rolling, instead I'm going to stake you to some very valuable advice. One of these days in your travels, a guy is going to show you a brand-new deck of cards on which the seal is not yet broken. Then this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump out of this brand-new deck of cards and squirt cider in your ear. But, son, do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you're going to wind up with an ear full of cider.' "

I first memorized this monologue I was five, some 50 years ago (if you want to know, just ask). I've been USING this speech and relating it to the muslims ( i.e. Taqqiya) for years now with any and everyone who would listen. I've alienated my wife, my kids think I'm nuts, and I can't seem to get any of my friends to go fly fishing with me any more. But I don't care. I'll continue to tell the truth to anyone any time I get the chance.

Sooner or later I know I'm going to get stabbed or worse by a member of the ROP. As Nicely-Nicely once said,
"People all said sit down
Sit down you're rockin' the boat.
And the devil will drag you under
By the sharp lapel of your checkered coat,
Sit down, sit down, sit down, sit down,
Sit down you're rockin' the boat."

I'm not afraid to rock the boat.

Posted by: Art Cove at September 15, 2006 1:56 PM

Citycat,

"I consider global Jihad anathema to Islam."
You've just declared yourself apostate. Watch your back from your mat buddies.

"In fact, the only difference is that Christ is not a diety."
A rather crucial difference to minimize.

"But did you know that Muslims believe that when the end of the world comes it will be Jesus coming to take pious to the kingdom of God and not Mohamed?"
Yes, to break the cross and kill the unbelivers, yada yada.

"Islam also teaches that no prophet is more important than any other."
Bullshit. Sahih Bukhari 9.93.507

"I have to say that Islamic clerics in Saudi Arabia have ABROGATED the Koran's passages of mercy."
As you have abrogated the Medinan verses.

"The clerics have given them a religous reason (which they have no right to give)."
No, actually the Qur'an does that quite efficiently on its own.

"That's like the Pope cancelling the New Testament."
No, it's like the Pope affirming the New Testament.

"So, now they're teaching only KILL KILL KILL. I'm sorry, I don't call that "Islam".
Then leave it. Try reading Ibn Warraq for a change.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 15, 2006 2:03 PM

citycat, I still don't know if this is a put on. I'd like to believe you are a moderate Muslim, but then you say things like "Islam makes science very easy" and "Islam says listen to the scientists", and "[Islam] is a personal communication with God", and it sounds like a superficial understanding of Islam that is refuted by the slightest amount of investigation.

But anyways, on with the show:

Although, I have to say that Islamic clerics in Saudi Arabia have ABROGATED the Koran's passages of mercy. That's the real problem.

Not just clerics in Saudi Arabia, but in Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, Thailand, Yemen, and really, EVERYWHERE that Islam is taught by ANY of the major Islamic schools of jurisprudence. How did ALL of those Islamic scholars get it wrong, how did they all misunderstand the Qur'an in such a fundamental way? And hearing this misunderstood violent message from the confused scholars, how did the vast majority of moderates accept their message? I mean, if the Pope came out tomorrow and said we need to kill all non-Catholics (which is a ludicrous hypothetical meant with no lack of respect towards the Pope), Catholics would question his mental health, they wouldn't just go out and start killing like robots. If the Qur'an teaches peace and harmony, why are there so many Muslims throughout the world who think that it calls for violent jihad?

Posted by: special_guest at September 15, 2006 2:13 PM

Imagine if Saudi Arabia in the Fifties and Sixties had asked British tradesmen to move into the country to fill a need for workers.

Those British workers bringing their wives and children with suitcase loads of tea and baked beans would have needed a bit of help settling in at first, but soon they would have wanted a community centre and a bowling green. Then they would have wanted maybe a C of E church and a Catholic church. Before too long they would expect a church in every town where there is a bowling green and a tea room, not to mention the community centre and soon a tennis court as well.

After fifty years of this the Saudi Arabians of British descent would be getting a bit cheesed off at being treated as second class citizens in a foreign land and they might decide to take action…

In reality those British immigrants would never have rose above the status of hired help and they certainly would never be allowed to proliferate Christianity to every town in the land.

In Britain these events have happened in reverse. In Britain the Muslims are not only taking action, they also have a voice that belies the fact that they make up only 2.7% of the population. Bombs have raised their minority status into the major realms of public opinion.

So many times I read comments by Muslims that say I reject extremism but nobody is listening to me. That is because the MCB is the voice of Islam in Britain and they are refusing to say what you think. Why are they refusing to say it? The open letter to parliament was a waste of time that denounced violence, but pointed out reasons for the violence. That letter proved that the majority of Muslims with influence consider other Muslims above the country they live in. That surely is the ultimate failure of the multicultural experiment.

Then we have the hate fest that follows every criticism of Islam. I can picture the raving Mullah banging on about why the Pope must die for his blasphemy, while he holds up a picture of the Pope and guesses his height.

“We need a size eighteen for this one brother!”

“Allah provided me with a size eighteen effigy only last week!”

“Good, let the riot begin!”

For every argument the Muslims make to support their victimisation by the West, I can show them a picture of a Mosque in Britain and furthermore I can show them a council that is building accommodation for Muslim families.

The Pope brings a truth that comes from decades of study and his words should not be distorted to fit agendas. If he apologises personally then we are doomed.

Posted by: Mert at September 15, 2006 2:15 PM

Heh heh heh... hilarious post... "How dare you say Muhammad spread his faith by the sword?" with a picture of Islamists doing what Islamists do.

As someone who has debated all types over the years on religious issues... Islamists, Muslims, are up there with the most ill-prepared, illogical of them all.

They have nothing which stands on reason... no evidence whatsoever.

They usually won't debate... because they can't.

And, like all such groups, they are extremely weak when it comes to debating because it becomes so trivial to turn them... or put them into a state of crisis.

As for this Pope thing, I am all for that. About time Catholics had a Pope willing to stand up and speak uncomfortable truths. (Being a hard core "Protestant", myself, typically I am opposed to the Popish system, but I am not opposed to anyone who speaks the hard truth against Islam... on that matter, anyway.)

Ultimately, Islamists will want to strike out at the Pope again, he is an easy target for them... though, this alone won't raise Catholics against Islamists -- but their celebrations worldwide afterwards would. (Same with 9/11... it would have been just isolated Muslim kooks if it were not that Muslims all over the world celebrated it and therefore bloodied their hands.)

Posted by: NovaRocket at September 15, 2006 2:15 PM

What is the problem?? the Musiln people cann't take the truth?? don't know th koran?? or what Mo revealed??
the Sura's say it all:
Sura 9:5-6 kill those who join other gods with allah wherever you may find them
Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the infidels, strike off their heads then, strike them off from every fingertip
Or what most Islamic schollars believe to be the last Sura revealed, giving it precedence:
Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in allah, nor the last days, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by the religion of truth(even if they are) of the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya (a special tax on non-muslims) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.So the Pope had the courage to speak up and say the truth, so what! I was personally waiting to see if this Pope would do/say something monumental. And to some degree he has. He told the truth which is more than most heads of state are doing, including our own Presidnet Bush.
Every Christian, every lover of the truth should stand with him, put this Muslin rage to death!
Hear me I'm not saying kill Muslims, I'm saying hold Muslims accountable for their rage and destruction! There very koran support what the Pope said.
Islam is a 1,400 year old study in hate, murder, racsim, sexism, and murder, and the satistics are in: the massacre & extermination of Zoroastians in Iran; Million Armenians in Turkey
Buddhists & Hindus in India; 6,000 Jews in Fez, Morocco, in 1033; 100's + Jews killed in Cordolb between 1010 & 1013; the entire Jewish communinity of 4,000 in Granada in 1066
1,000 Jews killed in anti-Jewish rioting in Baghdad; the list goes on and on.
It supasses any Christian wrong doings b/c the Holy Bible doen't support their actions. They weren't acting in accordance with their Lord's wishes, they were evil men. The problem with Islam is Islam, its all written down in the koran, the book of hate, murder, lies & cheating of your enemies, rape, racism, sexism. The koran supports all this garbage! If Muslims don't like the truth, find a holy book of honor, a prophet of good report (not a child molester, a demon possed, dirty old man)

Posted by: Aprilyn at September 15, 2006 2:16 PM

mrsmomoto,

"Religion has inherent structure to it, it involves a set of ideas. It is not infinitely flexible."

This is precisely the point. The Haddith seek to make the religion more "flexible". The Haddith, in fact, added back a lot of disgusting stuff (like rape is okay during war) that are forbidden by the Koran.

"my understanding is that the Koran (though it may be Hadith, or may be scholarly tradition, I have only started studying relatively recently, and I am still learning) states that older verses "replace" earlier verses when the two are in conflict."

I don't know what school of Islamic thought that refers to. I'd never heard of any such rule. CERTAINLY, you are not allowed to replace any verses in the Koran.

The problem is all this "flexibility". Now, I think that a lot of Christians (a quarter of my relatives are Christian) take bible verse too literally. Or misinterpret stories as commands. The Muslims do the same. In addition, Muslim clerics have recently taken to "cancelling out" parts of the Koran. How's that for flexible? Supposing a priest started canceling out "love thy neighbour" in the Bible. Would you still call that Christianity? You'd probably think that's a little too flexible.

The rule for Haddith has always been that if it contradicts the Koran, it is not a valid Haddith. In fact, Haddith didn't even appear until 250 years AFTER the establishment of Islam. So, I don't even consider Haddith a fundamental part of Islam. It's certainly not "holy scripture". For example, I don't even wear a veil because all that purdah stuff is in Haddith. The Koran only asks me to dress modestly and cover my bosom. I figure, as long as my boobs aren't hanging out, I'm good.

with regard to why I don't think Islam should be violent, please see my response to freewoman. Bottom line is, I have a whole big (Muslim) family and a bunch of friends of the family who think all this effigy-burning, jihad, anti-American, Anti-Israel, anti-cartoon, riot stuff is bullshit. We're definitely in the minority but we exist.

As for whether other Muslims will consider me a "real Muslim" based on my beliefs - I just don't give a crap. I answer to God. Not Mullahs. Not other Muslims.

I think more will come back to our way of thinking eventually. I mean, how can you live a normal life when you're constantly on Jihad??

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 2:19 PM

My problem Citycat, is if the koran is the word of allah, and if allah doesn't realize the world isn't flat, and it's not the mountains that hold the world in place, and semen doesn't come from the male's back, how can you still worship him? If, as the koran states, that he created everything, wouldn't he have known the truth? And how do you teach your children that, women are worth as much as men, it's not nice to hit women, and women aren't just tilth to be used or abused as her husband wishes? Do you teach your daughters to be independent or to just depend on their husbands?

My daughter was taught to be independent, think on her own and to know that just because her sex carries the babies, she is not to be used and abused by the sperm donor.

Also, how can you worship a man who was a mass murderer, pedophile , rapist and thief? He is not someone to emulate. Most life in the universe knows right from wrong and don't honor those who are blatantly savage toward others.

Posted by: freewoman at September 15, 2006 2:21 PM

When CityCat writes:

"But did you know that Muslims believe that when the end of the world comes it will be Jesus coming to take pious to the kingdom of God and not Mohamed?"

CityCat is being disingenuous. Muslims do not believe that Jesus is merely going to return to "take the pious to the kingdom of God". They believe that Jesus will also return to be the final Caliph of a global Islam and that he will lead all Muslims in a global jihad against non-Muslims. I.e., Muslims believe that Jesus will return to fight and kill pagans, Jews, and -- Christians!

Posted by: remote_control at September 15, 2006 2:27 PM

citycat said

Islam also teaches that no prophet is more important than any other. So why should I ignore Christ and only pay attention to Mohamed?

Because when Christ heard his message of love and forgiveness, he misunderstood and he was being deceived. Because Muhammad, Allah's Prophet, is the only one who heard the message directly from Allah, word for word, as it is written in the Qur'an, with all the "smite at their necks" and "kill them wherever you find them". Christ had it wrong, Muhammad had it right.

Christ was not the son of God, he did not die on the cross, his death did not save humanity.

This is all from mainstream Islamic tradition. The version you're saying sounds like the superficial taqiyah they feed to the infidels to placate us.

If you felt lost and were welcomed with flowery ebullience to the teachings of the Qur'an, please be careful about what exactly you have joined. Do not stop questioning and learning.

Posted by: special_guest at September 15, 2006 2:32 PM

Whoa! The Pope is supposed to believe in the superior and distinct truth of the Church. The Pope is allowed to speak comparatively of Christianity and other religions to the detriment of other religions.

Islamic arrogance is jaw dropping.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at September 15, 2006 2:35 PM

for the record:

How are hadith collections viewed?
The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book.

In the matter of what is called fiqh, or Islamic jurisprudence, the Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims. However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Quranic rules. Muslims believe that they can look at the way of life, or sunnah, of Muhammad and his companions to discover what to imitate and what to avoid.
In the matter of what is called tafsir, or exposition of the meaning of the Qur'an, Muslim scholars believe that it is useful to know how Muhammad or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion Muhammad received them. Sometimes this will clarify a passage that otherwise seems obscure.
Hadith are a source for Islamic history and biography.
For the vast majority of devout Muslims, authentic hadith are also a source of religious inspiration.
Some contemporary Muslims argue that the Qur'an alone is sufficient. Examples of such Muslims groups are Tolu-e-Islam (Resurgence of Islam), Free Minds, and United Submitters International. Muslims who take the "Qur'an alone" viewpoint are regarded as deviant by mainstream Muslim scholars, and by the vast majority of Muslims. Hadith-trusting Muslims argue that many Qur'anic instructions are impossible to fulfill without guidance from the ahadith. (The Qur'an does not, for example, specify how many prayer cycles constitute fulfillment of each of the daily prayers. ) The origins of some verses and statements in the Hadith cannot be verified as regards their source of origin.

THe vast majority of Hadith trusting Muslims argue that many QWur'anic instructions are impossible to fulfill without guidance from the ahadith---If you say the Hadith is not holy scripture you may only be half right. the Hadith supplements the Qur'an and Muslims follow blindly.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 15, 2006 2:35 PM

The photo says it all...

Posted by: freetoBEfree at September 15, 2006 2:36 PM

Citycat:

I have to disagree with you 'to the max'!!

First of all, most of the Kuran's forgiveness verses usually apply to MUSLIMS ONLY. AL-lah does not forgive those who do not submit to his will. If you disagree remember the Kuran states: "An evil fate awaits the unbelievers." How forgiving is THAT?? Not very, insofar as we can see. Sorry, but I just don't see much negotiating room for obtaining forgiveness in light of that one.

Secondly, the Kuranic passages that advocate killing, hate, and warfare against the infidels vastly outnumber the passages that advocate forgiveness. Thus, Muslims hate, kill, and war against infidels to a far degree and frequency than they are willing to cut them any slack. I wonder why.

Thirdly, the supposed Founder of Islam, Muhammed, did NOT practice a faith marked by forgiveness and benevolence. He lived by the sword and spread al-lah's message by the sword. And that is the way Islam is practiced today--in accordance with its Founder Muhammed's practice of the faith.

So we can see that Islam has indeed been defined by the way it is practiced. Islam is and always has been practiced the way its founder practiced it--brutally. So, why would Muslims practice their so-called faith any differently than its alleged 'Founder' did?? Maybe we should ask ourselves, why wouldn't they?

Posted by: pythagoras at September 15, 2006 2:38 PM

Jan,

It's a giant, uphill battle. I don't think it can be won by negotiation. Do the people in the photos look like they want to negotiate. Here's how the negotiation would go:

"submit to our Taliban will".

"No"

Then they behead you. Pretty much, we're just going to have to kill them first. There's no convincing terrorists they're wrong.

"Your efforts to change that are far more appreciated than your efforts to convince us that we are being deceived by our own eyes."

Now, I'd be interested to know where you find my efforts to convince you that you're being deceivd by your own eyes?

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 2:40 PM

I should have written , this is islam as practiced by what appears to be a majority of muslims today. citycat could be considered part of a tiny minority of extremists who don’t properly understand how islam should be practiced(misunderstanders of islam). The fanatics believe citycat can be whipped into shape when the time comes, if not they will just kill citycat. If muslims like citycat were to finally stand up to these fanatics (that would mean dispatching them) we could then begin a dialogue. Of course, we will probably never get anywhere due to the neverending list of contradictions we would have to resolve. Could citycat raise a sword against these fanatics, these insulters of the Pope?

Posted by: tgusa at September 15, 2006 2:40 PM

Are Catholics allowed to be 'offended' (the new buzz word to justify violence) at the burning of an effigy of the Pope?
Is it only Muslims who are allowed to be 'offended'?

Posted by: EnglishBlondie at September 15, 2006 2:40 PM

We are being called "infidels" in their mosques everyday, by their top critics. Why aren't we offended. Imagine if the pope went up and said "Everyone who's not Catholic is an infidel" what would that do to the world. They are waiting on a chance to get offended. They'll snap and show their real face. I just feel sorry for the Chrstians living among them. Here's an excerpt from an article on CNN today

"Meanwhile, a youth center run by the Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip was slightly damaged by a small explosion on Friday, witnesses told Reuters.

It was unclear if the blast was connected to the pope's comments."

Notice the use of word "small" and "unclear."

Long live the pope!

Posted by: Christian Phoenician at September 15, 2006 2:43 PM

I sent the BBC site on this item the following e mail,

Just think what would happen if John Cleese and the Monty Python crew made a film of "The Life of Iqbal". A camel trader who just happened to live in Arabia at the same time as Mohammed and kept being mistaken for him!

They did not post it, wonder why?

Posted by: Fred at September 15, 2006 2:43 PM

citicat,

Concerning the "enlightened" concept of dhimmitude, please pick up Bat Ye'or's "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude."

The application of the Dhimma was highly unpredictable. Capricious would be more like it. No Muslim caliph or emir was required to honor it, as there was plenty of precedence for refusing it.

It was actually a repressive system that imposed, at best, a second-class citizen status upon Jews and Christians. Their religious practices were greatly circumscribed and a crushing, humiliating jizya was required to be paid. To add to the humiliation of the jizya, the leaders of the infidel communities were the ones who were compelled to be the tax farmers.

Why are you trying to draw a moral equivalence here between Christianity and Islam? There is nothing in our faith that REQUIRES us to behave badly towards non-Christians. That is not the case with Islamic scripture and jurisprudence.

For God's sake, what has to happen to us before people finally understand that the source of the violence is in mandated, compulsory jihad outlined in Islamic scriptures, law, and the words and deeds of the Perfect Man, Muhammed?

Posted by: Fred at September 15, 2006 2:49 PM

" And in Gaza City, a grenade exploded outside a Christian church, though there were no casualties. "

All I've got to say is Hellooooooooooo..... Earth to radical muslims..... Religion of Peace?

Give me a brake.

Rosie O'Donnell says Christians are terriorists. Did the Christians riot in the streets.

What about not being able to wear a cross in public in Saudi Arabia. I think it's about time the Christians demand freedom of religeous expression in the Arab world.

Posted by: Mekoots at September 15, 2006 2:51 PM

Citycat:

I think you don't know your own religion. I would suggest reconsidering it.

It may be a hard pill to swallow that anonymous strangers, maybe even some who are brash, know your religion better then you... but maybe this is not very difficult when they see these fanatics and what they do and how they quote the Koran and other Islamic Scriptures to do it?

I have to admit, I have known many Muslims who would never take the sword and are great people. But, the truth is these Muslims are Muslims in name only. They were born into it. Their "goodness" and the goodness of any Muslim I have met, religious or not, does not come from Islam -- it comes from their own self, and their culture which pre-exists Islam.

Islam acts as a poison on these people. Islam is the singular problem. Islam is why these nations did not flourish.

That the Turks had any kind of success at all was due to the fact that those under their control were more religious then they were. Their conquerings surely came from Islam, but their ruling afterwards surely did not.

Islam is designed to conquer and destroy just like locusts are.

And, as other have noted, maybe you are a grasshopper today... but under certain conditions grasshoppers change into locusts, their swarming form. They under physiological changes. Then, they become destructive.

Are you so sure you don't have the capability to go from grasshopper to locust, yourself?

I think most moderate Muslims (non-religious ones)... believe they do not have to try and fight against extreme Muslims in all of this... because they do not fear the West against their brothers.

If the Islamists there keep attacking us, eventually we will be forced to respond. They will be decimated.

I would try to hold their hand back, if you care at all for your people.

Posted by: NovaRocket at September 15, 2006 2:51 PM

We are being called "infidels" in their mosques everyday, by their top critics. Why aren't we offended. Imagine if the pope went up and said "Everyone who's not Catholic is an infidel" what would that do to the world. They are waiting on a chance to get offended. They'll snap and show their real face. I just feel sorry for the Chrstians living among them. Here's an excerpt from an article on CNN today

"Meanwhile, a youth center run by the Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip was slightly damaged by a small explosion on Friday, witnesses told Reuters.

It was unclear if the blast was connected to the pope's comments."

Notice the use of word "small" and "unclear."

Long live the pope!

Posted by: Christian Phoenician at September 15, 2006 2:53 PM

I don't know why we're all worried about the islamic horde--just check out the half-wit in the pic stomping on the flames with flip-flops.

Islam wants your clitoris! Renew the Crusades!

Posted by: Know Your Enemy at September 15, 2006 2:53 PM

Even the church is now waking up. Poor little Muslims me thinks they protestith too much. The truth hurts.

Posted by: ethoman at September 15, 2006 3:04 PM

Concerned Citizen,

"You've just declared yourself apostate. Watch your back from your mat buddies."

I don't associate with those mat buddies. Keeps the blood pressure down. Most of my buddies are non-Muslims (for obvious reasons)

Christ as a non-diety is not that crucial. Christ's TEACHINGS are what's important.

I have not abrogated verses. The Koran has to be taken as a whole - including mercy.

In answer to several others (because I there's only one of me and I can't type that fast):

Look at Dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire. They were allowed partial autonomy and not subject to Islamic rule. While they paid a tax but were not obligated to serve in the Ottoman army. FOR THE TIME (an important distinction) this was pretty benevolant. Today we know better (democracy, age of enlightenment), so we should do better.

For Freewoman who is concerned that since dhimmitude is in the Koran we have to follow it: I believe that since the first Surah commands us to "learn" and further we are commanded to listen to and benefit from scientists, we can make changes to dhimmi. God commanded dhimmi so that other religions are protected, not forced to convert but can live in Muslim-run governments. But the core of the idea is protection of other faiths. Democracy does that better, so we should progress to that. Of course, there will be people who disagree with me but that's what I think.

The Koran teaches that men and women are equal. I know that later it permits men to hit their wives. So which is it? They contradict each other. How do I deal with that? The Koran also says that "if it contradicts itself. It is not from God". The stuff about equality appears in the Koran first and repeats. The beating appears once. Methinks somebody snuck that in. In any case, beating contradicts the the equality, so we stick with the equality. My husband would rather cut off his arms than hit me - or the kids. Our children are treated equally. My kids can date whomever they want and they can marry whomever they want from whatever religion they want. Not mainstream, you say? I'm not mainstream.

But, tough issues exist in every religion. Are divorced Catholics still catholic? How do you explain the lack of zero-tolerance for pedophile priests? How do you tackle the inquisitions and the bloody wars between Protestants and Catholics in, say, England with respect to the peaceful nature of Christianity?

Special_guest:

Would I waste this much time for a "put on" on a board where we are all anonymous? No it's not a put on. You're right in your last post about it not just being Saudi Clerics who abrogated it. But the Saudis are the only ones I have a source for (in case anyone challenged me on that). It's disgusting I tell you.

Pythagoras:

Chrisitans and Jews are "people of the book" and "worhip the same God". They are not infidel. Calling them infidels happened later to make slaughtering them convenient.

Mercy is for everyone. Why? Because God is the final judge - not man. Because pagans have to be given a lifelong chance to convert to the one and only God (otherwise, you're killing a potential believer). If the Pagans attack you (or anyone, for that matter), you have to "slay them where you find them".

So, they've taken that last bit, invented some kind of "oppression" by Christians and Jews and are screaming that they have to Jihad against that. Easy. Stupid, but easy.

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 3:18 PM

CNN's Delia Gallagher is discussing the Pope's speech. God, is she HOT or what? Her new haircut is sexy as hell. Wow.

Posted by: george_rem at September 15, 2006 3:21 PM

comedy from the muslim world.

Still from the free comments on albebeceera site
------------------------------
Added: Friday, 15 September, 2006, 19:05 GMT 20:05 UK
it is a shame for the pope to speak like this. This shows his lack of knowledge or desire to hide the facts. He must have known about the what islam brought in terms of women rights, equality among white and black and so on.
----------------------------

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 3:24 PM

A poster said that the Pope has no army, and therefore dismissed his statement. Well, the previous Pope had no army when he denounced Communism on his trip to Poland, and that speech started the crumbling of the Soviet empire. Why? Because it made millions of people stop being afraid. If millions of Europeans emulated Benedict's courage and stopped being afraid to tell the truth, Europe might just save itself from the Muslim takeover, which is facilitated by fear of political incorrectness.

Another point: two posters mentioned that there are a billion and half Muslims in the world. Maybe there are, but then again, maybe that's become the conventional wisdom only because it's been repeated so often. For all we know, the number may be much smaller. Two are too many, but it certainly would help to know the size of the threatening army.

Posted by: Frieda at September 15, 2006 3:26 PM

"I should have written , this is islam as practiced by what appears to be a majority of muslims today. citycat could be considered part of a tiny minority of extremists who don’t properly understand how islam should be practiced(misunderstanders of islam). The fanatics believe citycat can be whipped into shape when the time comes, if not they will just kill citycat."

Citycat is as good as dead if she says what she's saying here in, say, Gaza.

"If muslims like citycat were to finally stand up to these fanatics (that would mean dispatching them) we could then begin a dialogue."

NEVER gonna happen, my friend. These people don't want to talk - as I pointed out in a previous post.

"Of course, we will probably never get anywhere due to the neverending list of contradictions we would have to resolve. Could citycat raise a sword against these fanatics, these insulters of the Pope?"

No, I don't raise swords for insults. I believe in free speach. I don't believe that people have a right NOT to be offended. I believe in the right to blaspheme.

I (and my family and friends) support the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and I support Israel's right to whack the crap out of Hezbullshit. My only criticism is that Israel tread too softly. Hezbollah had the whole "civillian death" angle going for it. I'm for the Patriot Act and tapping phone lines. Know why? Got nothing to hide. I stood in line for 2 hours in 2004 to vote for Bush - knowing that he was not going to win my state because I live in NYC. Isn't that kinda like what you ment by "raising the sword"?

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 3:29 PM

nariz !!! Of course he kissed it! He kisses the dirt where ever he goes - that gesture is supposed to heal the illnesses of the nation - the koran is a very sick book! Why fault this saint? You too might try to cure these poor mind conrolled savages - where is your mercy? Posted by: henry

Kissing the dirt where ever he goes is one thing, kissing the Qur'an is another. Muslims know it for what it, an act of submission "to the word of Allah", and that was JPII's message, the Muslims read it, and the Pope wasn't so stupid as not to know it.

By the way Hojat e Islam Khatami will be visiting the Pope in October.. wait and see how that goes over.

I have no mercy for self inflicted wounds,arrogance , stubborness or blatant stupidity.

By the way JP II is not a Saint, especially in the eyes of the Catholic Truth, Pope Pius XII Society folk.. those hard core traditionalists even reject
Pope B16 because he gives audiences to the likes of clowns and Khatami.

Picture of the Year

Posted by: Nariz at September 15, 2006 3:33 PM

cc NOTES:

"You've just declared yourself apostate. Watch your back from your mat buddies."

wELL WELL, THE mUSLIMS COULD EITHER KILL YOU OR LOVE YOU.

THE warning should be heeded.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 15, 2006 3:34 PM

Citycat,

"Christ as a non-diety is not that crucial. Christ's TEACHINGS are what's important."

Perhaps you should reconsider Christ's "I AM" statements. They are part of his "teaching" as well. His deity is the central most crucial part of the Christian doctrines of propitiation and substitutionary atonement.

Of course, you pick and choose from Jesus' teachings because Ibn Hazm declared the Taurat and Injeel tahrif (despite the Qur'an and the ahadith do not). You also need to study the doctrine of naskh, and the concepts of ijtihad and taqleed further.

Has it ever occurred to you why an Islamist would refer to Jesus/Y'shua/Isa as "Christ", meaning Messiah/Moshiakh? Does this not seem completely contradictory to the quote from Bukhari above to you?

I find it strange you mention your children. It's as if you/re saying, gang members are okay, the poetry of the rap is good, some gangbangers go overboard and are unbalanced, even violent. It's mostly because of the gangsta rappers. Gangbangers don't HAVE to be violent. But I don't really hang out with other gangbangers because I'm afraid of them and I don't agree with their overall perspectives and the violence.

I mean, damn, what about your kids? WTF are they supposed to think? You expect them to agree with YOU forever?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 15, 2006 3:37 PM

"Look at Dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire. They were allowed partial autonomy and not subject to Islamic rule. While they paid a tax but were not obligated to serve in the Ottoman army."

other than telling us that being a dhimmi was a good thing, are you telling us that female genitalia mutilation is good for sex?

Do you recall a similar treatment from christians to minorities back then?

Of course NOT! Regardless of the TIME.

"God commanded dhimmi so that other religions are protected, not forced to convert but can live in Muslim-run governments. But the core of the idea is protection of other faiths. "

how the "protection" worked is under everybody's eyes.

"The Koran teaches that men and women are equal. I know that later it permits men to hit their wives. So which is it? They contradict each other. How do I deal with that? The Koran also says that "if it contradicts itself. It is not from God". "

wow, you learn a thing everyday, the koran is a fraud

"But, tough issues exist in every religion. Are divorced Catholics still catholic? "

this is total stupidity from your side. Divorce doesn't exists for the church but from the LAW.
WE have this silly thing called separation of church and state, so what the LAW admits is one thing, what the church admits is another, but guess what? LAW stands OVER RELIGION.

"How do you explain the lack of zero-tolerance for pedophile priests? "

see above, the church is not a police authority therefore it's POLICE and LAW taking care of it. As they would do with any other citizen.

Many pedophiles are caught in schools as teachers and janitors, so why don't you ask ZERO tolerance from schools also? because when they face one case THEY CALL THE POLICE.

The madrassa is different. The clerics have both religious authority and LAW authority, therefore it's YOUR madrassas that have lack of zero tolerance.

"How do you tackle the inquisitions and the bloody wars between Protestants and Catholics in, say, England with respect to the peaceful nature of Christianity? "

how do you explain that the protestant and catholics were arguing ONLY in ireland and NOT in other countries with MIXED protestant and catholics?

that's because the reasons weren't as much as religious as they were POLITIC and territorial.

It's not job of the Pope to say who can live in northern ireland? CAPICHE?

"Because pagans have to be given a lifelong chance to convert to the one and only God "

why pagans cannot remain PAGAN?

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 3:42 PM

"Look at Dhimmis in the Ottoman Empire. They were allowed partial autonomy and not subject to Islamic rule. While they paid a tax but were not obligated to serve in the Ottoman army."
-- from a posting above

Non-Muslims were "not subject to Islamic rule"? In every single encounter with any Muslim, they were subject "to Islamic rule." Only within their own communities could they enforce their own religious laws. If a single Muslim or the state was involved, then Islamic law took over.

As for the assertion that they were "not obligated to serve in the Ottoman army" -- please google the word "devshirme" and read carefully.

Posted by: Hugh at September 15, 2006 3:44 PM

The facts are what they are: Islam has become a violent religion.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 15, 2006 11:57 AM

... a slight correction. Islam IS and always WAS a violent religion. Hostility starting with 'There is NO God but ALLAH', denying all other religions, if one can see.

Posted by: Alert at September 15, 2006 3:46 PM

NovaRocket,

"I think you don't know your own religion. I would suggest reconsidering it."

So, you're calling me ignorant?

"That the Turks had any kind of success at all was due to the fact that those under their control were more religious then they were. Their conquerings surely came from Islam, but their ruling afterwards surely did not.

Islam is designed to conquer and destroy just like locusts are."

Please explain to me what Sufi Muslims ever did to destroy?

This, though, you consider very enlightened. You provide nothing to back this up but I'm supposed to just take it from your glorious fingertips as fact.

You know nothing about history, Islam or Christianity, most likely.

Moreover, your reading comprehension skills are poor.

I have repeatedly said that this is NOT the Islam I was taught by my family and not the one we practice. I have repeatedly said that this FASCISM has to be subdued (you'll never get completely rid of it) just like we conquered the the Nazis. If for no other reason, than I PERSONALLY don't want to live in their version of Hell...I mean, Islam. They are NOT "my people", as you put it. They are the enemy of everything I believe.

So, perhaps you'll rethink attacking me personally. I've done nothing to you.

I've become disheartened. I KNOW I can't talk to the Jihadist loonies because they're insane. Unfortunately, it seems that I can't talk to people who claim to be more rational and less hateful either.

Posted by: citycat at September 15, 2006 3:48 PM

for more info on Devshirmeh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

Posted by: FedUp at September 15, 2006 3:51 PM