| FrontPageMag.com | Articles By Robert Spencer | Articles By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Robert Spencer Bio |  |
|
|
|||||||||
|
|
Father Raymond J. de Souza speaks truth to power in the National Post (thanks to Twostellas):
The eruption of rage in some quarters of the Islamic world against Pope Benedict XVI requires that several tough things be said.Painful though it may be, speaking frankly is necessary if there is to be honest and open dialogue between the Abrahamic faiths. Given the reaction to Benedict's address, though, one wonders if that dialogue is even possible.
[...]
Benedict was quoting a 14th-century Christian emperor, under siege from the Ottomans, defending the position that spreading religion by violence is contrary to the nature of God. The Emperor, quite reasonably given his circumstances, suggested to his Persian interlocutor such a view did not prevail in Islamic thought.
In response to this historical excursus in an academic lecture by one of the world's most erudite theologians, we are witnessing a wave of madness and malice, no doubt an embarrassment to millions of Muslims.
Roman Catholics are likely angry. Relations between adherents of the two religions simply cannot develop without all conducting themselves as mature adults.
It does a disservice to children to call the wild-eyed statements and deranged behaviour of the past days childish.
It is not only the obscenity of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist terrorist band suppressed in several Muslim states, demanding an apology from anyone, let alone the Holy Father.
It is not only the grandstanding Pakistani politicians passing resolutions condemning a papal speech few read, and even fewer understood. It is not only the extraneous charges about the Holocaust and Hitler by the agitated and excited.
It is that we have seen this before.
When Pope John Paul II made his epic pilgrimage to the Holy Land, Palestinian Muslim representatives jostled him on the Temple Mount, shouted at him, and, in one episode of maximum rudeness, abandoned him on stage during an interfaith meeting. Bashir Assad, the Syrian President, treated him to an anti-Semitic rant when the late pope visited Syria.
Catholic goodwill toward global Islam is severely attenuated by such continued maltreatment of our universal pastors.
And it is well past time that the maltreatment of history ceased too.
The irony of the accusations that Pope Benedict has a "Crusader mentality" is that he was speaking about the period in which the Crusades themselves took place.
Catholics have for quite some time now confessed the sinful and wicked shadows that marked the Crusades, but any suggestion the whole affair was about rapacious Christians setting upon irenic Muslims must be rejected.
After all, the formerly Christian lands of North Africa, the Middle East and Asia Minor were not converted to Islam by Muslim missionary martyrs. Those lands were conquered by the sword.
The Crusader idea was that they could be recovered. Who wronged who first is a fruitless historical inquiry, but historical honesty requires an admission that Muslims wronged as much as they were wronged against.
Actually, the recapture of all the lands conquered and Islamized by the warriors of jihad was never part of the Crusader program. But in any case, this is an excellent and, under the circumstances, courageous piece. Read it all.
Posted by Robert at September 16, 2006 2:12 PM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
|
...he quoted a dialogue recorded between the Byzantine (Christian) Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an erudite Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam.-from the article
Perhaps an opportunity to call for more public dialog. How about a series of discussions/debates held throughout the Christian and Islamic worlds, broadcast for all to see.
The reactions of the Islamic host populations to open dialog held in their lands should settle the debate before it began.
Posted by: limes![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at September 16, 2006 2:25 PM
Where is Mr. Bush in the pope's defense? WHERE IS BUSH?
As former President Lyndon B. Johnson said to Abba Eban on the eve of May 26, 1967, "I am not a mouse from Washington, I am a lion from Texas!"
Where is our lion from Texas?
Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 2:28 PM
What is wrong with the western world or other eastern religions like Hinduism. I mean how can they tolerate such utter non-sensical protest by the muslim people. Why didn't the western world protest when the had the shameless showing of jewish cartoons in Iran in a museum and where does the western world goes when thousands of innocent hindus and other muslims are killed in kashmir every month. How about burning an effigy of khatami or Iranian President as a protest!! I think Pope should definitely not apologize he was absolutely, 100% correct.
Posted by: vonbueren at September 16, 2006 2:28 PM
Irony anyone?
Posted by: Carolyn2 at September 16, 2006 2:33 PM
Father Raymond J. de Souza is absolutely correct in the general as well as in the specific sense. Recall that Manuel II Paleologos was the first Byzantine Emperor to visit the "West", i.e., England and France in search of support for defense against the Ottoman threat. Now, just as Manuel II warned five hundred years ago, England and France are themselves living under a Muslim threat. The Pope would not have quoted Manuel II unless Rome now found itself in the same position Constantinople did in 1520. It is earnestly hoped that the Vatican has awakened to the danger that it now faces, and that it will seek serious rapprochement with the Orthodox world instead of seeding it with Uniate churches. This is not a time for quibbling or internal divisions. I hope that the current Pope also reviews his predecessor's policies in the Balkans. John Paul II, as it may be recalled, was one of the first to recognize Bosnia's independence.
Posted by: Unwrittenhistory at September 16, 2006 2:36 PM
For me the ranting rages of Muslims was easily expected after the cartoon caper. Muslims don't want to hear the truth because they cannot handle the truth .
The dark backward world of fundamental Muslims lives in a perpetual denial of the truth about the violent practices of Islam through the Quran.
It easier for them to look you straight in the face and live the lie (taquiya) that is Islam.
Islam is no religion of peace and never has been. The western world is waking up to this scourge but ever so slowly and in some cases like the EU, it may be a bit to late.
Posted by: Mackie at September 16, 2006 2:37 PM
Oh my God. This is great. Now THIS is what you call genuine "interfaith dialogue". Enough of the sham "pretend dialogue" that's just flat-out insulting to everyone's intelligence.
Posted by: Caroline at September 16, 2006 2:40 PM
The truth has a way of spreading under its own power. Have any of you ever seen a non muslim point a muslim out of a crowd and exclaim “there goes a faithful follower of a peaceful religion?”
Posted by: Ronin at September 16, 2006 2:43 PM
Possibly the Pope didn't know the reaction but if he had said it deliberately knowing what would happen and he retracted he would have made his point and made it Brilliantly.
He possibly didn't do it deliberately but if he had it would have been an absolute stroke of genius and I would absolutely congratulate him!
How dare you call us Muslims violent! Now excuse us while we act like monkeys from the trees!
The reaction of the Muslims illustrates with exceeding clarity exactly why we should never, and should have never, allowed them anywhere near our society, they are a poisonous ideology, they are like a cancer which grows without bounds.
There are perhaps some moderate Muslims who are not violent, who are not fundamentalist but they are indistinguishable from their more pragmatic brethren. When treating an aggressive tumour, in order to extricate the cancer it is necessary to remove healthy tissue, with Islamic fundamentalism the same practise in necessary.
Islam itself is like a tumour, a non malignant one but not completely benign, one which needs keeping a regular check on and parts of which are constantly turning malignant.
Posted by: IceDragon at September 16, 2006 2:44 PM
It'll be interesting to see how this is topic is treated at Masses around the world tomorrow. The opportunity exists in the near future for a watershed moment in galvanizing Catholics against jihad. Or there could be a depressing re-affirmation of the status quo. Or the subject could possibly not be raised at all.
One hopes the opportunity is not altogether squandered.
at September 16, 2006 2:51 PM
The Pope wants to bring the truth out. There has been too much stagnation in Christianity. Even though many in Europe ignore it and prefer paganism or kowtowing to Islam in the name of tolerance, some of us experience Christianity as a vibrant, powerful religion on which our heritage is largely based.
Posted by: rocky at September 16, 2006 2:57 PM
The madness does not shame the Muslim world.
Muslims have no shame....
Posted by: SCV at September 16, 2006 3:00 PM
One can only hope that his devoutness stands by his statements. In my life I have never seen such sympathy for the Pope. In the Netherlands, where I live, there never has been such backing of the Pope. If you've said last year that almost everyone I know says the Pope is correct I probably laughed my *ss off. This truly amazing.
Posted by: DrWolffenstein at September 16, 2006 3:01 PM
I doubt it very much than any of these Muslim 'clerics' have any idea who Kant or Descartes or Monod are. The Pope's lecture went way over their heads.
I think that one of the ills of Islam is that anyone can become a cleric. No education or training are required, let alone any kind of academic inclinations.
Posted by: george_rem at September 16, 2006 3:05 PM
When are people going to realize the issue is bigger than they want to admit. The Islamic Movement is not about a separate state for the Palestinian people. The Islamic Movement is about domination. Google the word "dhimmi" and "jizyah". You will begin to understand. Jerusalem and all of Israel has no place in the Islamic world view. They are occupiers. Interlopers.
50,000 Muslims in attendance at the Islamic Movement's 11th Annual Rally. It is one obscure Islamic rally. A key speaker states that Jerusalem will be the center of the coming Islamic Caliphate. I find it amusing that people across the world see and hear the Islamist people of the world reacting to various events with immense fervour. Many times with outright death and mayhem threats to the non-muslim world. Liberals say that the West should abandon Israel and all will be well. Really? Liberals say that extremists in the Islamic world are small in number. Really? Liberals claim that extremist Islamists are no real threat. Hmmm? Box Cutters and a vision proved this theory wrong. Imagine Ahmadinejad with nuclear weapons. Peace and Justice Mr. Ahmadinejad?
These views, hopes, and aspirations are shared throughout the entire Islamic world. If you doubt, research the mindset of "Joe Islamist". It is there for you to see. As a worldwide community, they are very open regarding their beliefs and desires. When confronted on blogs or in conversation, Islamists will obfuscate immediately. Remember the Wizard of Oz scene, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"? Look up the term, al-Taqiyya.
The west is being conquered slowly. We are subjecting out of ignorance and fear. Read the following articles: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/15620 describes five year old UK girl's passport photo being banned because it might offend Muslims, http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1796 descibes the Islamification of Europe, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6075032 NPR has no clue what we are up against, and http://www.ijtihad.org/Secularism.htm article by Dr. Muqtedar Khan regarding religion, life and politics are irrevocably intertwined.
Remember: Peace can only follow Victory.
Bubba's Pravda
bubbaspravda.blogspot.com
at September 16, 2006 3:05 PM
Considering the historical context of the quote, the following must be clearly acknowledged and understood in terms of our own current circumstances:
We're all Byzantines now.
Posted by: RBLA at September 16, 2006 3:26 PM
Who is this "Fr. de Souza," and why hasn't he been named Cardinal?
This is the kind of guy that needs to be PROMOTED.
But it's sad to note that even this guy, short changed the truth.
We don't have a relationship with muslims that is "severly attenuated," we have a relationship at swords point. And has been at swords point ever since we in the Catholic West, refused to emulate the foolishness of the Christian East, and allow ourselves to be plundered, destroyed, and raped.
Posted by: Dan at September 16, 2006 3:27 PM
Would that the muslim savages were even capable of shame or embarassment. It would be a good start. But there will be no "dialog" between intelligent men of letters and of conscience and savage animals who understand only violence and intimidation.
Posted by: Infidel33 at September 16, 2006 3:28 PM
When will people learn that Islam is not a debating society.
My opinion of non-Muslim leadership has become so low that I do not believe that an assassinated Pope will change their attitudes.
There will still be this hand wringing with the mock painful cries of "Why do they dislike us?" They are so afraid of THAT WORD (HATE) that they cannot use it to describe Muslims, even though THAT BOOK is full of it.
What we need is more dialogue and discussion of our differences. Maybe if we give them Europe, yeah, that's the ticket. And Dearborn, Mich. too,
I can visualize Prissy (the late Butterfly McQueen)wringing her hands and saying, Oh, Lordy, Mistah Bush, what is we gwina do?" Well, Prissy, Mistah Bush don't have half the brain Scarlett had.
IceDragon, It's malignant!!!
at September 16, 2006 3:31 PM
I can only hope that the Muslim calls for going to the source text to counter the awful remarks by the Pope are taken seriously by anyone who has not yet, and people actually do read verse after verse after verse indicating intolerance and violence. There might be some good to come out of all of this:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3304575,00.html
Gee, lots of hate and intolerance in here, Honey. Why are they telling us it's a Religion of Peace?
I would rather live and work with a Muslim American than suffer Ralph Peters for a minute.
Posted by: amana39 at September 16, 2006 3:34 PM
We lost one our greatest warriors for freedom, liberty, and the West on Friday - Oriana Fallaci, and great friend and admirer of Benedict XVI, as described in her last book, The Force of Reason.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=112923
I have not seen anything in the Western news about this great loss. What a pity.
Posted by: Jimmy Bones at September 16, 2006 3:36 PM
"One can only hope that his devoutness stands by his statements. In my life I have never seen such sympathy for the Pope. In the Netherlands, where I live, there never has been such backing of the Pope. If you've said last year that almost everyone I know says the Pope is correct I probably laughed my *ss off. This truly amazing."
little news. Yesterday I monitored the al-be-be-ceera website (BBC have your say page) on the pope topic.
There were a ratio of 1 anti-pope every 8 pro pope, the 1 anti pope was either from muslim people or from british snob atheists. You could RATE the comments and the RATINg was absolutely PRO the pro-pope. The anti-pope comments got less than 10, the pro-pope got all over 30-40, sometimes over 80-100.
In spite of the fact that he was forced to apologise, many people that before were indifferent are seeing the real deal.
Posted by: FedUp at September 16, 2006 3:38 PM
It is truly amazing to read this; the Catholic Church has awoken from centuries of slumber to speak the truth! If this continues, I may stop being an atheist and become a Catholic!
Posted by: ReligionofPeas at September 16, 2006 4:02 PM
Pakistan Returns 2,500 Terrorists To Jihad
Nuclear Power Orders al-Qaeda and Taliban Prisoners Freed, Including Top al-Qaeda Leaders
In what could be the most troubling development in the War on Terror since it began, Pakistan has released nearly all of the Taliban and al-Qaeda terrorists it has had in custody since the US invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 http://threatswatch.org/
at September 16, 2006 4:17 PM
And of course, the context of the Byzantine
emperor's comment is that only about 50 years
after that comment was made the muslims put
Constantinople to the sword, massacring and
enslaving the inhabitants, raping the women,
desecrating the churches, killing the emperor
(the SON of Manuel II Paleolegus,whom Benedict
XVI quoted, born in 1404, shortly after the
siege when Manuel II made those comments),
making the cathedral of Hagia Sophia into a mosque. Emperor Manuel II Paleolegeus saw this danger and that was why he made that comment. And now the Turks demand that Pope Benedict XVI apologize for quoting that emperor? That's like neo-nazis demanding someone apologize for quoting some early '30's German Jewish rabbi (whose son and the rest of his family was later killed by the nazis in the Holocaust) as saying that the nazis are racially intolerant. How about the Turks apologizing for destroying Constantinople and returning its' cathedral to the Orthodox Greeks? Anyone else see the double standard...
The catholics sack Constantinople and temporarily take it over ...BAD CRUSADERS - it proves Christianity is a violent religion
The muslims sack Constantinoble rename it Istanbul and ethnically cleanse it of it's orthodox population... GOOD MUSLIMS - Islam is a religion of peace
But hey, being muslim means never having to say you're sorry!
So what is it with these Turks? It isn't enough that the Muslim Turks killed Paleologus' son and most of his family, destroyed his city, now we can't even quote Paleologus saying that Islam is a violent religion?
Posted by: godfreyofbouillon at September 16, 2006 4:23 PM
...but historical honesty requires an admission that Muslims wronged as much as they were wronged against.
Don't hold your breath for that.
Posted by: Seymour Paine at September 16, 2006 4:23 PM
Father de Souza's final paragraph -- "Not to act reasonably is contrary to the nature of God," said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures."
De Souza is overly optimistic: you can't have a dialogue based on reason with fervent participants of a culture of Gnostic apocalyptic nihilism.
Posted by: remote_control at September 16, 2006 4:33 PM
Folks, what we are seeing is once again Islam showing its most ugly face. This is even worse then the Danish cartoons because this is simple truth coming from the leader of a great faith, my church's human head. He was simply citing history that is all and the Muslims went nuts. Goes to show that the time for talk is over. In other words, one side needs to grow up in a hurry.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2006 4:33 PM
"The Pope would not have quoted Manuel II unless Rome now found itself in the same position Constantinople did in 1520."
I think you have the dates wrong. Manuel II Palaiologos was Emperor from 1391 to 1425. And, since Constantinople was definitively conquered by the Muslims in 1453, your 1520 date would be a little late for any hopeful "position".
at September 16, 2006 4:34 PM
I hope this pope stands his ground and does not apologize and I hope western leaders or any leaders for that matter show solidarity with him.
As the other pope went around apologizing to everyone including Easter Christians for past sins he then went and supported muslims against christians in yugoslavia. This guy is doing the opposite he has apologized to know one yet he is building bridges with eastern christians because he seems genuine and that is all that is needed. I really think christians can start building an alliance as I think this pope realizes we must stick together on this issue of islam. I just hope our loony seculuar leaders don't start criticizing him.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at September 16, 2006 4:41 PM
It is not the rioter's madness that shames islam, but the madness that Mohammed started when he began his cult of death. Islam shames itself. Islam is a blight on humanity. Islam is a festering pimple on the ass of human kind.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at September 16, 2006 4:44 PM
Bohemond_1069,
Well we are seeing the starts of that "pimple" begining to pop open, with its ugly garbage and all.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2006 4:50 PM
Where is Mr. Bush in the pope's defense? WHERE IS BUSH?
Where is our lion from Texas?
Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 02:28 PM
Oh.. you expect Bush to do what? speak out? well, he spoke to Americans thru 'Guest Worker Program' (aka Amnssty). He spoke to Americans by by condemning Minutmen as 'vigilanties'. If Bush comes out you, you wish he hadn't as the timid corrupt man will stand for noone but his wealthy wahabbi masters and lawless nannies from Mexico.
So much for 'lion from Texas'.
Posted by: Alert at September 16, 2006 4:52 PM
Unfortunately, our Western PC cosmetic surgeons still control our sociopolitical conversation about that giant pimple which, under their talented surgery, continues to be presented as a beauty mark, completely disassociated from any pus and inflammations that arise out of it.
Posted by: remote_control at September 16, 2006 4:53 PM
Muslim world newspapers filled with articles slamming pope’s remarks; ‘it is clear that such remarks only contribute to the fueling of the fire raging between Islam and the West,’ op-ed published in al-Sharq al-Awsat says
Roee Nahmias Published: 09.16.06, 21:32
The recent remarks made by Pope Benedict XVI on Islam are threatening to ignite the entire Muslim world.
Op-Eds published in the Arab newspapers slammed the pope even after the Vatican’s apology.
The most extreme opinion was voiced by Hani Pahas in the London-based Arabic-language daily newspaper Al-Hayat, who wrote “the pope’s comments may lead to war; we fear that the pope’s statements may lead to a war that we, Muslims and Christians alike, are trying to prevent through dialogue between East and West
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3304575,00.html
at September 16, 2006 5:01 PM
When Pope John Paul II made his epic pilgrimage to the Holy Land, Palestinian Muslim representatives jostled him on the Temple Mount, shouted at him, and, in one episode of maximum rudeness, abandoned him on stage during an interfaith meeting.
Served him right! When a snake charmer is bitten by a snake what can be said? John Paul dabbled in multi-culturalism with islam and should have expected what happened. Maybe he did -- we'll never know!
In response to this historical excursus in an academic lecture by one of the world's most erudite theologians, we are witnessing a wave of madness and malice, no doubt an embarrassment to millions of Muslims...
There you go again; trying to be apologists for these islamic vermin! It is not an embarrassment for millions of Muslims! It is a call to battle!
I am offended by islam; I am offended by the of s in the name of their nefarious religon.
And you catholics had damned well better be angry yourselves!
Benedict did NOTHING WRONG! and SHOULD NOT APOLOGISE for one word he uttered on this occasion!
Catholics have for quite some time now confessed the sinful and wicked shadows that marked the Crusades, but any suggestion the whole affair was about rapacious Christians setting upon irenic Muslims must be rejected.
This was a mistake! Islam was the cause of the crusades and I agree 100% with this point!
The Crusader idea was that they could be recovered. Who wronged who first is a fruitless historical inquiry, but historical honesty requires an admission that Muslims wronged as much as they were wronged against
Benedict needs to be making this point and saying these things with conviction!
By apologizing for his references to history he is only encouraging the monsters of islam who should be put back in their box where they belong!
The putrid immams and islamics raging in the streets owe this pope an apology!
The threats against Benedict's life and safety are ridiculous and evil; you catholics had better stand by him!
at September 16, 2006 5:02 PM
For the Pope to apologize he would have to deny the obvous truth that Islam was spread by the sword or to apologize for suggesting that faith should not be spread by the sword. How can he say either?
Posted by: AnneCrockett at September 16, 2006 5:03 PM
remote_control,
Well the two major incidents, the Danish cartoons and now what Pope B16 has said are the needed squeezing that will force the ugly pus to come out, pain and all. The PC brigade will discovery to their sorrow that the beauty mark was no beauty mark at all.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2006 5:05 PM
AnneCrockett: "For the Pope to apologize he would have to deny the obvous truth that Islam was spread by the sword or to apologize for suggesting that faith should not be spread by the sword. How can he say either?"
He can't. And well put.
Posted by: Caroline at September 16, 2006 5:27 PM
Anne and Caroline:
Even if the Pope "can't", he already has.
The Vatican's new Secretary of State, Tarcisio Bertone today said: "The Holy Father is extremely sorry that certain passages of his speech appeared offensive to Muslim believers and were interpreted in a way that does not correspond in any way to his intentions".
To paraphrase the Gospel of Matthew 9:29: "With rational men this is impossible, but with PC Multiculturalism, all things are possible."
Posted by: remote_control at September 16, 2006 5:35 PM
Curious that Rome's followers are all of a sudden in a huff? No opposition to the genocidal wars against Israel these last sixty plus years? Israel was at the vanguard of the Islamic jihad: Where was Rome? Rome was with the jihadis claiming that the city founded by the Jewish king David, the eternal center of the Jewish People, a uniquely Jewish Capitol, should be internationalized. This policy was dictated by the Vatican’s bizarre and hateful replacement theology that saw itself as the “true Israel,” or “verus Israel.” Well, hence cometh Islam with an even cruder replacement theology. Whereas Rome claimed to have replaced God’s Chosen People—Israel, the Jewish People—then comes Islam with their own replacement theology: Claiming that they, the Muslims, are the True-Christianity. Well the Roman replacers are in the process of being replaced, and Rome’s leader speaks in obscure and muffled language; and now cowers from the mere shouts of the Muslim rabble. Rome has no army; and, it, evidently, has no future.
Our only hope is a strong Israel and a determined, uncompromising, United States. Unfortunately, both Israel and America are wobbling. God help us.
at September 16, 2006 5:41 PM
Remote - that's still a "non-apology" apology. Nothing in that statement contradicts AnneCrockett's point. The Pope has neither denied that Islam was spread by the sword (neither has he denied the "evil" part of his original quote) nor has he denied that faith should not be spread by the sword.
"The Holy Father is extremely sorry that certain passages of his speech appeared offensive to Muslim believers and were interpreted in a way that does not correspond in any way to his intentions."
Nothing substantive there...
Posted by: Caroline at September 16, 2006 6:12 PM
Lance,
You forget that the Church is built on the foundation laid down by Jesus when He said to Peter, "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church". Got to remember that nothing, and I mean nothing, not even the religion from Hell itself and from Satan, Islam can even take it down. God Bless the Church, the Pope, the USA, and Isreal.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2006 6:31 PM
Even craven European leaders are coming to the Pope's defense. Where is Mr. Bush? Why is he silent? Where is he hiding? In the White House? Or in Crawford, Texas? I read this morning that Mr. Bush is going to meet with the arch-terrorist, Mahmoud Abbas (serial Holocaust denier and Yasser Arafat's right hand man.) Mr. Bush calls him a man dedicated to peace. Abbas is forming a national unity government with Hamas. Secretary Rice insisted Hamas take part in the Palestinian Muslim elections. Bush said he wants a Palestinian terrorist state in a couple of years or so, according to his "road map" for peace in the Middle East. No wonder Mr. Bush is absent and no where to be found.
Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 6:39 PM
Lance,
After the taliwackers blew up the Buddha’s in Afghanistan, and the more recent threats to ancient Egyptian artifacts the Church appears to now understand that if the muslims get hold of the holy Land it will cease to exist. The Jewish people and Israel are much better caretakers.
at September 16, 2006 6:40 PM
Michelle Malkin writes today:
"Germany's Angela Merkel has stood up to support the Pope against the hate-filled, threat-implying jihadists.
"What about the men of the West? Where are they? Hello, President Bush?"
at September 16, 2006 6:52 PM
Lance wrote:
. Rome has no army; and, it, evidently, has no future.
Do you realize who you're paraphrasing? Stalin. And that was on his idiotic quotes, cause he has some good ones too.
Our only hope is a strong Israel and a determined, uncompromising, United States.
What utter nonsense. What can a 'strong Israel' do to stop the Islamization of the West?! They cant even do much about their own backyard.
Of course that the Vatican is immensely powerful. They dont need army divisions to exert influence in the Christian world. Just like the Evangelical ministers in the US, the Pope could publicly speak against the evils of Islam and thus wake up the citizens of Europe. He could rapidly end all this imbecilic talk about 'the religion of peace'.
Posted by: george_rem at September 16, 2006 7:03 PM
Caroline,
The problem with the Pope's "non-apology" is that it will fail to satisfy the Muslims while at the same time it comports to the reflexive posture of responding apologetically to Muslims. I would have been happier had the Pope (through his representative) responded thusly:
"The Pope honestly and sincerely cannot find any reason why he needs to apologize to Muslims for his speech. He respectfully requests of any Muslim spokespersons to explain, in a public written communication that employs intelligent argumentation, why he must apologize to Muslims, and he will seriously consider a response to that communication."
Posted by: remote_control at September 16, 2006 7:18 PM
Why do they call Islam one of the three Abrahamic faiths? Would the patriarch, Abraham recognize Islam today as a child or a son?
Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 7:38 PM
george_rem,
Your attribution to me of Stalinism is appalling, unfair and unreasonable. You miss my point. The “West,” and its “Islamization,” as you refer to it, characterizes the conduct of the European states, which, in an earlier era constituted the Vatican’s army. However, the Vatican’s false replacement theology has driven these same European states to promote the fiction of the “Palestinians,” (prior to this was the promotion of antisemitism that inevitably led to pogroms and the Holocaust). “Palestine” is what Rome re-named the Land of Israel after the mass-murder of most of Jews therein; and exiling the remainder. Now, Rome’s repugnant theology in respect of the Jewish People, and mischief thereby created with respect to the mythological “Palestine”—a political/military tool of the jihadis—has resulted in churches being burned in that part of the Land of Israel called Gaza, Judea, and Samaria, (the so-called “West Bank”). See: http://michellemalkin.com/; and perhaps you may see what the Jewish People have had to put up with by both Rome and Mecca.
at September 16, 2006 7:39 PM
Lance, I wasnt saying you're a Stalinist, just that you unwittingly repeated Stalin's contemptuous remark about the Pope.
Of course, the last Pope did not need an army to topple Communism, and the current pope does not need any army to put an end to the Islamization of Europe and even S. America.
Posted by: george_rem at September 16, 2006 7:48 PM
with the grace of god may the truth be told and not veiled by fear.
Posted by: raja at September 16, 2006 7:55 PM
When the truth is viewed as an insult and allowed to fester, the end result cannot be far off.
Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 7:57 PM
Why is President Bush afraid? Why won't he speak out in defense of the pope? What is he afraid of? Is Mr. Bush a moral coward?
Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 8:00 PM
Truth hurts. The muslims think they have a right to violence. It's in their war manual. I'm sure they get angry that others can speak the truth because they sure can't. But then, it's less trouble to be ruthless and out of control than it would be to be an upstanding and thoughtful citizen. I'm sure after an afternoon of excitation , physical and mental, they have to run home to wifey(s).
I wonder if after the rioting and screaming and crying and whining and protesting, if muslims ever wonder, it could be why the civilized world sees them as savage and barbaric and state as such.
Posted by: freewoman at September 16, 2006 8:26 PM
"Yet the world's profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions ..."
It does not follow that the use of reason excludes the Divine or faith. For example, I may note that the earth is almost a precise distance (approx. 90 million miles) from the sun to sustain life on the planet, that a relatively small move away or toward the sun would bake us or freeze us. My reason tells me that the odds of that distance being an accident (and a continual accident)are slim. My reason tells me that if not an accident, that it is probable that an Intelligence has willed that distance. If an Intelligence has willed that distance then it follows that there is a reason for the distance, and that reason probably is life on earth. And if the distance and life on earth are willed then God must have an interest in the lives on earth. Reason points to the likelihood of a Supreme Being, and the high probability that God is interested in each person.
Beliefs are not facts. However, the nature of our minds requires beliefs because we must always have a Reason for every Why.
I believe the Supreme Intelligence is not bound by any religious dogma. However, God did not give us reason for nothing, and wants us to meet Him in Being. We do not find God in our senses, in our intellect, in our feelings, but in Being. We are in one moment of being all our life, though we move through time. I believe God is found in Being.
I do not think reason is at all incompatible with faith. In fact, I think reason can bring us to awe of God and Being. It is the demented and unreasoned (Islam, e.g.)which is not compatible with faith or Being. Islam largly rejects reason, and as the saying goes, "hell is a place without reason."
Posted by: Frank at September 16, 2006 9:44 PM
monk writes:
"What about the men of the West? Where are they? Hello, President Bush?"
We need American men who drink more whiskey and fewer lattes.
at September 16, 2006 9:48 PM
freewoman writes:
"I'm sure after an afternoon of excitation , physical and mental, they have to run home to wifey(s)."
at September 16, 2006 9:53 PM
Steven L. I'll drink to that.
Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 9:54 PM
Sorry your 1st post, lol
Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 9:55 PM
One more instance of Muslims holding others to a standard they do not maintain themselves.
Posted by: Dr.Bruce at September 16, 2006 10:17 PM
I don't think the rioters madness shames the Muslim world. It exposes it, and it is a timely reminder of what the world will be like for our grandchildren and great-grandchildren if demographics does its worst here in the West and the Islamists take over by default, taking us back to the Dark Ages era of intolerance and saavagery. If only people would sit up and take notice of what they're seeing before their very eyes and read the placards these monsters carry, instead of listening to, and inhaling the words of the PC aplogists who cover up for these barbarians.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at September 17, 2006 5:26 AM
Steven L, thats true. The real men of the West are all six feet under the sods. Men like Theodore and Frankjlin D Roosevelt, Sir Winston Churchill, John Quincy Adams, Lord Palmerston, Jan Sobieski, Maria Teresa, Catherine the Great, Otto von Bismarck and the like. These are the calibre of men and women we urgently need, not to mention the people that fought under their leadership. The quality of leaders today is unfortunately higher than the quality of the people that live under them. Hard living conditions in the 1920s and 1930s created the breed of soldiers which won us World War II. This was an era long before the soft couch potato generation which make up todays Western youth, and the enemy our softened youth will be facing have the toughness of our Victorian and Edwardian ancestors, and as we know, those who survived childhood back then became very tough people.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at September 17, 2006 5:45 AM
Steven L, thats true. The real men (and women) of the West are all six feet under the sods. People like Theodore and Frankjlin D Roosevelt, Sir Winston Churchill, John Quincy Adams, Lord Palmerston, Jan Sobieski, Maria Teresa, Catherine the Great, Otto von Bismarck and the like. These are the calibre of men and women we urgently need, not to mention the people that fought under their leadership. The quality of leaders today is unfortunately higher than the quality of the people that live under them. Hard living conditions in the 1920s and 1930s created the breed of soldiers which won us World War II. This was an era long before the soft couch potato generation which make up todays Western youth, and the enemy our softened youth will be facing have the toughness of our Victorian and Edwardian ancestors, and as we know, those who survived childhood back then became very tough people.
Thats better.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at September 17, 2006 5:47 AM
Two other things noted re my previous comment on the matter of the compatibility of reason and faith: it has occurred to me that not only the earth's distance from the sun is of interest re life, but also the 24 hour period rotation of the earth and the angle of the earth's axis seems to raise the possibility of Divine will on the matter of life on earth. (At least it it raises questions with this person.)
However, after reading the bloodthirsty lunacy of chapter 9 in the Koran, one wonders why God even bothered to create man. Indeed, the idea of "perfect man" with his 9 year old wife does cause the intellect to raise questions about Mohammad and our species, though such questions may be forbidden in some places.
I think it would be good for Muslims (and others) to follow that sage advice "Curb Your Dogma" when it comes to the free and open exchange of thought. No one has to believe what Muslims believe. Beliefs are not facts.
Posted by: Frank at September 17, 2006 5:55 AM
Final thought re the saying: "Curb Your Dogmas"
Certain things are facts such as "a cat is a cat and that's that". Beliefs are not in that category and it goes against reason to treat beliefs as fact.
Posted by: Frank at September 17, 2006 6:11 AM
Whence this fetish for the phrase "Abrahamic faiths"? In what possible sense is Islam based on the writings of Abraham? This phrase, I believe, was originated in Islamic press releases attempting to create false equivalence between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Western press should reject it as false, as taqiyya, not ignorantly repeat it.
Posted by: aynrandgirl at September 17, 2006 12:13 PM
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)