crusader619,

We've long been with you. Israel was first to feel Islam's "peace" in modern times. What happens in Israel portends the future of the rest of the non-Muslim world.

G-d guard the Pope.

Posted by: ZionistYoungster at September 16, 2006 6:16 PM

Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death..."...( The point....You make a man submit....you can make him pretend to believe a God of War.....But you can not make him have Faith......Faith is from a loving GOD we serve by choice...because we want to serve him...NO ONE MAKES US...WE DO IT BECAUSE OF LOVE.

Posted by: storagemanager at September 16, 2006 6:17 PM

crusader619,ZionistYoungster,storagemanager,

Let us pray for the safety of Pope B16 that God will keep him safe and to help him be a prophetic witness.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2006 6:25 PM

Wow. Theology is just is just as specialized and inaccessible to the lay person as any science. I had to read some section three times to understand what the Pope was saying, and still am not sure I got everything.

To a Muslim, this could have as well been written in Martian. They are that alien to Western culture.

Posted by: george_rem at September 16, 2006 6:28 PM

I particularly liked this paragraph:

This inner rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek philosophical inquiry was an event of decisive importance not only from the standpoint of the history of religions, but also from that of world history - it is an event which concerns us even today. Given this convergence, it is not surprising that Christianity, despite its origins and some significant developments in the East, finally took on its historically decisive character in Europe. We can also express this the other way around: this convergence, with the subsequent addition of the Roman heritage, created Europe and remains the foundation of what can rightly be called Europe.

So the Pope is not afraid of politically correct 'multiculturalists' either. These types are even more pernicious than the Muslims.

Posted by: george_rem at September 16, 2006 6:31 PM

Utterly reasonable comments that are well grounded theologically, philosophically, and textually.

And for such commentary, which should raise points of discussion, dialogue, and rational debate (the main purpose of the speech), Muslim masses and clerics protest, defame, call for violence, and threaten war.

The facade of the 'religion of peace' becomes ever more transparent.

Posted by: JTF at September 16, 2006 6:33 PM

I agree with all the above.

Just found this piece.Now they are calling on mo's to kill the Pope.
I hope this doesn't happen, but if it does will the west unite? Will our leaders have the guts to express outrage? Will this be the flashpoint of global war.It certainly should be.
The implications are enormous.Here we have a major leader in the Judeo-Christian belief system, if they get away with this it will be a disaster. And I am not a Catholic!

This story is from our www.news.com.au network Source: AFP

Security tightened for blessing
September 17, 2006
SECURITY will be stepped up around Pope Benedict XVI's residence at Castel Gandolfo for his Sunday Angelus blessing amid growing Muslim anger over his remarks about Islam, the Italian ANSA news agency said overnight.

"Meticulous" security checks would be "strengthened" and "intensified" and enforced over an extended area but the measures would be applied discreetly so as "not to disturb the prayers", ANSA reported.

The Pope today voiced deep regret that a speech he gave in Germany implicitly linking Islam to violence had offended Muslims but he stopped short of retracting his remarks, arguing they had been misinterpreted.

Muslims across the globe have been outraged and a hardline cleric linked to Somalia's powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill the Pope, while an armed Iraqi group has threatened to carry out attacks against Rome and the Vatican.

The Pontiff, leader of more than one billion Catholics worldwide, is due to give his traditional Sunday address at midday (2000 AEST) from the balcony of his summer residence at Castel Gandolfo, just south of Rome.

Posted by: Gramfan at September 16, 2006 6:34 PM

Just found this.Seems the Pope's "apology" wasn't good enough for the mo's.

How would they know what a "good enough" apology is? They have never made one!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20426802-1702,00.html

Posted by: Gramfan at September 16, 2006 6:43 PM

Just some humor
Brokeback Islam

Posted by: blackdogbrigade at September 16, 2006 6:44 PM

Now the mo's are essentially questioning his Christianity! As if they would know what that means? Unbelieveable!

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/islamic-world-rails-against-pope/2006/09/16/1158334735074.html

Posted by: Gramfan at September 16, 2006 6:48 PM

The world has gone crazy - the Pope is accused of thought-crime and I'm actually on his side ...

Posted by: drk at September 16, 2006 6:49 PM

Well, I clicked onto the link of the Pope's entire speech. My reaction to it: abolutely beautiful! The whole point of the speech was that conversions should be brought about by faith and reason - never by force.

I highly recommend that everybody print out the speech and take the time to read it carefully. It's pretty long, so read just a little at time to fully digest the powerful message.

Posted by: Ginger at September 16, 2006 7:16 PM

george_rem:

"To a Muslim, this could have as well been written in Martian."

A majority of Muslims in the countries where they seethe the most can't read at all.

"I particularly liked this paragraph:"

Me too, and for a similar reason.
I also liked the connection he made to Manuel Paleologus, though, in doing so, he opened up a can of worms. It signals to me a strong committment, by Rome, to re-introduce the world to the Byzantines who knew pretty well what Islam was all about. The encounters between Islam and the other civilizations it destroyed are, unfortunately, obscure. Not so with Byzantium. The record is huge. The Balkans are a living testimony of the mess.

I really hope people out there will begin to ask who this emperor was and why he was talking like that. It's going to be one heck of a discovery.

Posted by: ovidius_naso at September 16, 2006 7:21 PM

"The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn [probably a typo; Ibn Hazm] went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.

"In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God's voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazn and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God's transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions."

I think B16 has a pretty good grip on Islam. Bertone should retract his comment that the "Pope's position on Islam was unmistakably in line with Vatican teaching that the Church 'esteems Muslims, who adore the only God.'"

No they don't. In that Allah "is not even bound to truth and goodness", "capricious" and unknowable ("unattainable"), this is NOT the God of the JudaeoChristian tradition.

REPEATING (cue Muslims dancing around and in a fire):

"Allah" is not the Jewish or Christian God.

Ibn Hazm is the one who promulgated (successfully) the view in Islam that the Taurat (Torah/Tanakh;Old Testament) and Injeel (Evangel/Gospel;New Testament) were "tahrif" (textually corrupted as opposed to misinterpreted). This opinion was not dominant before Hazm, and is not supported by the Qur'an or the Hadith. If it were not for Hazm's success, Muslims might have had attempt to reconcile Hazm's perverted views of "God" with the other texts.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 16, 2006 7:38 PM

The mo's have no shame, only the desire to rule at any cost. So far most have trimbeled at their demands. Will the Pope cave in? When wrong is right most will close their eyes, and wish for a happy ending.

Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 7:44 PM

ovidius_naso said: "It signals to me a strong committment, by Rome, to re-introduce the world to the Byzantines who knew pretty well what Islam was all about. The encounters between Islam and the other civilizations it destroyed are, unfortunately, obscure. Not so with Byzantium. The record is huge."

E.g.,

Witnesses for Christ: Orthodox Christian Neomartyrs of the Ottoman Period, 1437-1860 (Paperback)

http://www.amazon.com/Witnesses-Christ-Christian-Neomartyrs-1437-1860/dp/0881411965/sr=1-1/qid=1158449810/ref=sr_1_1/102-2609176-5825740?ie=UTF8&s=books

Pilgrim

Posted by: Pilgrim at September 16, 2006 7:45 PM

And here from Al Jazeera (via Googles Arabic Translation page) is what the arabs are thinking

Is lots of interesting stuff there.

http://google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.net%2FNR%2Fex eres%2F8FD54E7F-56C5-49A0-B60A-89A67426F3B3.htm&langpair=ar%7Cen&hl=en &ie=UTF8

Love this current poll

The vote :

In a statement read in the context of the Vatican Pope :

A Part of the conspiracy against Islam. 72%
B Mursi 7%
C Religious intolerance 19%

Posted by: Bill A at September 16, 2006 7:51 PM

But it doesn't matter what the Pope said, only what the Imams told their audiences at Friday prayers. Most muslims are too ignorant to read or understand the printed word, whether it's a newspaper or the Koran.

They respond especially well to incitement though, particularly on Fridays.

Posted by: n.a. palm at September 16, 2006 7:56 PM

Where is Mr. Bush? Why is he so cravenly silent?

Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 7:57 PM

"Its time for Jews, and Christians to unite, and free the world from the threat of Islam." I would like to add hindus, buddhists, secularists, and any sane people.

We must remember we are in this mess not because of Islams strength but our disunity due to our leftist elites. And when I say leftists I include bush.

the comments on the BBC are moslty in favour of the pope yet there are a lot of leftists who obviously don't like islam are critical of the pope because they can't get past their bias agaisnt christianity.

bush is still alligned with muslims in Kosovo, bosnia, saudi arabia, turkey,and pakistan.

Lets put pressure on him to drop these alliances so the world can unit against this threat

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at September 16, 2006 8:00 PM

Why does my president have to respond to this nonsense monk? He's quitely kicking their a$$, as best as he can.

Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 8:03 PM

Grand Alliance of Jews, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs

It is time to form a Grand Alliance of Jews, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs to fight and resist the clear and unacceptable Islamic threat to our cultures and our democratic ways. If our governments and leaders won't properly recognize the threat and defend us, then we owe it to our families to rise to our own defense. Spread the word throughout the internet, and let this idea take root and grow.

Let us ally ourselves, and give those who threaten our safety the jihad they so desire - culturally, politically, and physically - before it is too late.

Help stop the suicide of the West!

- Rosemont jdka56@hotmail.com

Posted by: jdka at September 16, 2006 8:08 PM

Concerned Citizen-

Good points. The Judeo-Christian God has made a 'space' of freedom Of Himself - a divine and fearful gift to man.

A God so omnipotent that He is capable of 'limiting' Himself (this is the essence of 'Mercy and Grace').

I grew up with the 'sophisticated' idea of a God that is an amorphous intelligent gaseous 'something'. Only as I aged did it become clear to me that the most sacred feeling I have is my own feeling of distinct 'personhood', this feeling of 'I'. That the most sophisticated intuition of God is of 'person'.

The Islamic 'god' betrays his origins as a pagan 'natural' god - a 'force of nature' in the sort of theology we've been discussing here. Who questions an earthquake - it too is 'beyond reason' and does what it does.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at September 16, 2006 8:10 PM

"9.30": And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah...'

Jews have never claimed anything of the sort. The attack on the Pope is as demented as this verse from the Koran. This is not a religion, it's sickness in which unbelievers are required to believe demented things such as Jews are Apes and Pigs. It's sick.

It's a sick supremacist belief-system that is trying to make the Pope do the dhimmi thing. It's sick. Islam is a memtal illness.

Posted by: Frank at September 16, 2006 8:17 PM

"Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word"

Sura 3:169-171
"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah: And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. They glory in the Grace and the bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost (in the least."

Sorry, Shahid, Allah is not bound by this (i.e. you're still going to Hell).

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 16, 2006 8:42 PM

The moHAMmedans are not interest in leading anyone to faith.
Their persuasive argument has nothing to do with reason - much less with holiness, spirituality, virtue. Their persuasive argument is "We'll kill you."
This entire "religion" is a bloodfest of deranged insanity. I am convinced that it is Satanic.
All the "believers" who stick their butts in the air five times a day (Thank you, Oriana) are complicit.
Will there be a reaction in the West? Are churches and priests and ministers going to be targetted? And is Turkey STILL being considered for the EU?
Thanks to Pilgrim for linking to the book about the Orthodox Christian martyrs. Yes a Christian Martyr is one who is willing to die for the Faith, for the Truth. A Moslem martyr is one who is willing to Kill for an evil, patently and demonstrably FALSE system, and take as many innocent souls with him.
Holy Martyrs intercede for us!

Posted by: Sansantiago at September 16, 2006 8:54 PM

Why does my president have to respond to this nonsense monk? He's quitely kicking their a$$, as best as he can. Posted by: AMartinez

Please explain that.

Posted by: Pelayo at September 16, 2006 9:01 PM

One of the best ways to find out what the Vatican really think about something is to read the Italian newspaper Avvenire(http://www.avvenire.it), which is owned and ran by the Italian Bishops' Conference - in effect, by Cardinal Ruini, the right-hand man of this Pope and the previous one. And the front page of today's Avvenire (Sunday 17 September, 2006) is an absolute drum roll. Here are some titles (the editorial convention at this newspaper is that titles are rather long):

After the undignified protests from some Muslim areas, the new Foreign Secretary, Msgr. Mamberti, intervenes. "Dialogue is a priority." Islam accuses Benedict XVI: absurd. He has done nothing more than his job.

They removed reason from God: The true criticism of the Pope is to the West. (This is written by Samir Khalil SJ, a well-informed and outspoken critic of Islam.)

Small sentences that are easily turned into battle slogans: Al Jazeera, the new prophet (This one is by Camille Eid, author of a book about Christians martyred by Islam down the centuries.)

Turkey is in dire need of the dialogue of faith and reason: What an opportunity the Ankara government wasted.

There are plenty of people like Naguib Mahfuz: Reasonable Islam exists, and needs to be strengthened.

A life against the stream: Oriana Fallaci, a female incarnation of courage against the decline of the West, has died in Florence.

Plus an article of personal reminiscences of Fallaci, "not a feminist, but a free and proud female."

Fairly combative editorial material, on the whole. And all in a single issue. This, take it from me, is the real mood in the Vatican and in the Italian Church.

Posted by: Paolo at September 16, 2006 9:08 PM

Among other things, the link in the post above was badly done. It should be: http://www.avvenire.it/

Posted by: Paolo at September 16, 2006 9:11 PM

Pelayo, Why should he respond to any garbage that the mo's have to say about the pope? If he said anything it would not be enough, or the right thing said. Therefor nothing said is more done. Walk quietly but carry a big stick.

Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 9:13 PM

It is one thing to make reference to some historic quote but quite another to revive it in all its meanacing terror. When the pope apologizes for quoting history will muslims apologize for their death and destruction chants, at their religious sermons -- all done in a very communal frienzied mob sort of way.

Posted by: tiarna at September 16, 2006 9:13 PM

I found this a week ago and it is gripping viewing for anyone interested

[b]
Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West (2005)
[/b]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0487116/

DVD-Rip
Avi
English

The sequel to Relentless, Obsession is a film about the threat of Radical Islam to Western civilization. Using unique footage from Arab television, it reveals an 'insider's view' of the hatred the Radicals are teaching, their incitement of global jihad, and their goal of world domination. The film also traces the parallels between the Nazi movement of World War II, the Radicals of today, and the Western world's response to both threats. Featuring interviews with Daniel Pipes, Steve Emerson, Alan Dershowitz, a former PLO terrorist, and a former Hitler Youth Commander.

First 7 parts 88mb each
last part 77.41mb

699MB.

http://rapidshare.de/files/32294983/Jansinsanity.part01.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32290032/Jansinsanity.part02.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32285419/Jansinsanity.part03.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32274217/Jansinsanity.part04.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32270361/Jansinsanity.part05.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32266213/Jansinsanity.part06.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32261328/Jansinsanity.part07.rar
http://rapidshare.de/files/32251420/Jansinsanity.part08.rar

Or:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XI4H68TO
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6UUJKI1Z

Pass:
Graphixanstuff.com

Posted by: tiarna at September 16, 2006 9:24 PM

Pelayo -- I was similarly confused about the same statement you asked for clarification on. But farther up in the thread is a poster named "monk." I think a comma was missing.

Posted by: MarisolJW at September 16, 2006 9:33 PM

Sorry to all whom all were unable to follow my thoughts, as , yes , a, comma, was, missing,

Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 9:40 PM

There are some paragraphs in B16's speech that might be considered offensive by Atheists but I haven't heard of Atheist mobs gathering after their Friday non-prayer and pillaging Catholic churches.

Posted by: highbg at September 16, 2006 9:58 PM

Analyzing the entire text of the Pope's lecture makes it clear that Muslims are unjustified in their outrage. It was just an exercise in intellectual philosophical, theological musings that 99.9% of the population (including myself) couldn't possibly fully understand without a PhD.

There's no way the virtually illiterate, young Muslim males could understand what the Pope meant in his lecture. But logic and reason never discouraged a Jihadist from rioting for Allah. It apparently doesn't matter if Islam is "insulted" or not, the PERCEPTION of insult is sufficient to cause violent outrage in a Jihadist.

Posted by: Xero G at September 16, 2006 10:07 PM

"I hope this doesn't happen, but if it does will the west unite? Will our leaders have the guts to express outrage?"

Of course not. If some Muslims assassinate the Pope, the West, dominated by the PC Multiculturalist template, will bracket Islam (and the vast majority of good peaceful Muslims) out of the equation in order to protect it from condemnation, and those perennial scapegoats, the "tiny minority of extremists", will be blamed (along with Bush and Blair).

Posted by: remote_control at September 16, 2006 10:16 PM

Xero G, the mo's are not outraged to be mad about a slur. Their mad just to be mad, islam is not a regligion, its an excuse for destruction.

Posted by: AMartinez at September 16, 2006 10:18 PM

The Pope suggested that spreading religion by violence is bad. Christians have violated that principle in the past. Fortunately, our leaders have condemned such violence.

What about Muslims and Islam? In the name of spreading Islam, Muslims are killing people every day. And what about Muslim leaders? They mostly just blame the Pope.

Posted by: Dr.Bruce at September 16, 2006 10:21 PM

Thank you, tiarna, for mentioning the DVD "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West."

It was after watching this video about a month ago that made me passionate about learning more about my enemy. It was a real wake-up call for me!

Posted by: Ginger at September 16, 2006 10:52 PM

Where is Mr. Bush? Why is he so cravenly silent?

Posted by: monk at September 16, 2006 07:57 PM

Timid and corrupt Dubya wouldn't lift a finger if he didn't get wealth (from his wahabbi masters / corporate chronies) or votes (from illegal aliens). Bush's christianity was a stratehy to get votes and devout christians thought they are voting a man of religion. .. ha!

Posted by: Alert at September 16, 2006 11:11 PM

It apparently doesn't matter if Islam is "insulted" or not, the PERCEPTION of insult is sufficient to cause violent outrage in a Jihadist.

Posted by: Xero G at September 16, 2006 10:07 PM

.. you got it! It boils down to Dar-al-Islam v/s Dar-al-harb. It is as simple as that!

Posted by: Alert at September 16, 2006 11:14 PM

Concerned Citizen,

"But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality."

I see the attraction of this point of view. It is, of course, the absolute freedom of God; it is bound up with His omnipotence (which we Christians know). However, God demonstrates that He is rational in our terms in two ways - firstly, he makes us in his own image therefore our rationality comes from Him and therefore he is rational, and secondly, he demonstrates his vast, indeed infinite, rationality in the complex, but rational, workings of His creation which our scientists, through rational enquiries, are uncovering.

"In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God's 'voluntas ordinata'. Beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done...

Despite what the Pope said, which is deep and needs more consideration on my part for I am only an amateur, God's Nature - as revealed by His 'intentions and signs', His voluntas ordinata as it were, is that He is the God of goodness and forgiveness and rationality. Benedict is straying here, I think (but, as I said previously, I need more time), ever so slightly from the path of received Catholic and Apostolic wisdom. God cannot do, but this may have been His Holiness's point (as I said, this is dense and needs to be thought about), other than He has done; for He is the one true God and He is, in our terms, and, because we are made in His image, in universal terms also (and we are the demonstration of that fact), the God of goodness and rationality.

Basically, if we are good and reasonable then God must be also good and reasonable because we are made in His image by Him. One cannot divorce, in this discussion at least, reason from God (if we are reasonable) because God must possess a quality of reasonableness which we must by virtue of our creation by Him and in His image, inevitably, mirror. If we are reasonable, given that we are made in His image, then God is reasonable. Therefore, the unreasonableness inherent in islam is indicative of its lack of any relationship to God. That we see this lack of reason in islam on a daily basis and that we also see the willingness of Christians to bend to reason is naught but a further indication of the reasonableness of God.

QED (in this type of discussion, anyway).

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at September 16, 2006 11:27 PM

Now, supposing His Holiness gave a speech pointing out the violence inherent in Islam, and also (a la dear Robert Spencer) quoting Quran, Hadith, etc. to demonstrate the many contradictions and errors. And suppose he added a critique on the person of MoHAMmed, his massacres, pedophelia, treachery. Even then he would have said nothing wrong.
Perhaps we'll see a day when the Pope and/or other leaders will quote Emperor Paleologos, not so much as a side-note, but as a first-hand reliable statement of truth.
Alas! the frenzy in Islamo-hell is nothing new. It is baseless, self-contradictory and irrational - the perfect complement to the un-religion of Islam. Doesn't matter if it is a cartoon, a weak US president using the term "Islamic fascists," or the Vicar of Christ. Any excuse will do.

Posted by: Sansantiago at September 16, 2006 11:40 PM

Concerned Citizen,

So, basically, I agree with your conclusion. Our God is not allah but God and we learn about Him as we learn about us and our world and our universe(s).

poetcomic1,

"The Judeo-Christian God has made a 'space' of freedom Of Himself - a divine and fearful gift to man. ... A God so omnipotent that He is capable of 'limiting' Himself (this is the essence of 'Mercy and Grace').

In essence true. However, God is reasonable and rational as well as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He is this because we are and we are made in His image. Simple extrapolation, really. But then, that's probably what you said. Sometimes English doesn't help much.

Ah Babel, Babel, now I know thy sting.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at September 16, 2006 11:44 PM

Firstly, thanks for making the entire text of the Pope's speech available. I had not been able to find the full speech before this. The Pontiff's point about religious violence is supremely important, and that is why he prefaces his speech with the point--that religion *cannot* be coerced, and violence has no place in the dialogue.

Cardinal Bertone (the "deputy Pope"), said the academic speech was meant as a "a clear and radical rejection of religiously-motivated violence, wherever it comes from".

There are points in the speech that I disagree with--I do not think that Kant's attempts to reconcile Faith and Reason are entirely successful, and think that his "Critique of Pure Reason" is, in fact, rather unreasonable. The point is, though, that these are things which people of good faith (meant in every sense of the term) can disagree on. It is only when the discussion is marred by irrational threats of violence that all common ground becomes impossible.

In one very real sense, this is ironic--Muslims who threaten violence because they are accused of reacting to things with threat of violence. On another, deeper level. though, there is no irony. Radical Muslims simply want to be deferred to under any and all circumstances, and anything even smacking of critisism of Islam and Mohammed is met with threats and violence.

Morrocco and Egypt have recalled their envoys to the Vatican. Turks (including government officals) are issuing vaguely threatening statements about the safety of the Pope if he goes through with his scheduled visit there. Five churches were attacked in the West Bank. The press goes out of its way to mention that only one of these churches was Catholic, but to the attackers this is irrellevent. They think of Christians as of a piece, even when the Christians themselves do not. Often even secular Westerners are refered to as "Jews and Christians"

I don't often think of German Chancellor Angela Merkel as being a very strong figure, but she defended the Pope's comments.

Sadly, the New York Times said in an editorial the Pope must issue a "deep and persuasive" apology for quotes used in his speech.

Posted by: gravenimage at September 17, 2006 1:51 AM

Xero G,

Right!~ we are prisoners of their perception.

no matter how good our intentions, we will be as bad as the Muslims perceive us to be.

Posted by: rocky at September 17, 2006 4:03 AM

And the front page of today's Avvenire (Sunday 17 September, 2006) is an absolute drum roll.

Paolo, is there an English edition of this website? I don't understand Italian.

(Although I think I get the gist of Dall'Islam accuse a Benedetto XVI. Assurde.)

WSW

Posted by: Wild Slutty Womens at September 17, 2006 9:55 AM

Despite what the Pope said, which is deep and needs more consideration on my part for I am only an amateur, God's Nature - as revealed by His 'intentions and signs', His voluntas ordinata as it were, is that He is the God of goodness and forgiveness and rationality. Benedict is straying here...

I think if you return to that passage, you will see that Benedict is still speaking about "voluntarism," quoting a line of thought with which he and the Church disagree. Beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done... Benedict is not quoting that line to say that it's true--he's quoting it to say, this is what the "later development of voluntarism is."

To me, also a layman, this is the only part of the address that's a bit obscure for non-theologians, voluntarism being something I'm completely unfamiliar with.

Posted by: Chris Fotos at September 17, 2006 11:18 AM

WSW - sorry, no. That is why I tried to give a little taste of what the paper was about - I imagine nobody outside Italy will have heard of it, and yet it is not only one of the main voices of the Italian Church but also, something unusual among "official" newspapers, a very fine publication in its own right.

Camille Eid's article is particularly hard-hitting, and if I have the time I may try to translate it. It is a fierce criticism, both of the frightful dependency of the Arab nation upon the worst sort of television - reductive, factoid-packed, sensational, sentimental - and of the TV itself, with telling asides about the unpopularity of reading and books in the Arab nations.

Bear in mind that, among other people, Avvenire is read by most Italian priests, and they will form their opinions on it. Italian public opinion is already mostly sick of Islam, and this will help. A few days ago I read a piece of news which, in Hollywood, would have been incredible: a major Italian film-maker is going to shoot a feature movie, featuring Harvey Keitel (who has been working in Italy for years), in which "ordinary" Muslims are fingered as terrorists, taqiyya-liars and murderers, without ifs or buts. The director says he goes around armed now, but that it is his duty as a citizen to show the community this danger.

Posted by: Paolo at September 17, 2006 11:52 AM