Yes, right on. Once again let me state: Those who practice Islam via murder make the words quoted by the Pope truth. They are living proof.

Posted by: 2joeymamma at September 18, 2006 9:57 AM

Come on: all Pope Benedict really needs to do to make it all better with his deeply offended, thin-skinned, so called ‘Abrahamic brothers’ is simply to kiss a Koran like his predecessor did.

Posted by: descendantofacrusader at September 18, 2006 9:59 AM

I tried to copy & paste this great tribute to Oriana Fallaci from Atlas Shrugs, but the computer didn't allow it. I hope the link works, well reading, everything!

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/09/orianna_fallaci.html

Here in part:

"Don't believe in a dialog with Islam. That's a naivete. It can only be a monologue. They do not believe in pluralism. There is no such thing as a "moderate Islam" and a Radical Islam. There is only one Islam."

I too believe this as much as it pains me to say it. I would like nothing better to believe that there is a side we can do business with, talk to. But that is self deluding.

Fallaci:"The real enemy is Islam and the most catastrophic threat is immigration not terror. It is immigration. And they do not integrate in Europe. Maybe in the USA but not in Europe. Those riots in France are a result of that very thing". The Chinese, Vietnamese etc immigrants are not rioting and tearing down the very fabric of society.

"They [The Islamists] are very patient. And Clever."

"This war needs boldness."

"WAKE UP WAKE UP. WE ARE AT WAR. WAR HAS BEEN DECLARED ON THE WEST AND WE MUST FIGHT. One or the other must perish."

And so she has spoken. And we, who stand on her shoulders, will pick up the mantle and carry on. Thank you Orianna, go with Gd.

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 18, 2006 9:59 AM

"Now it is time for other churchmen to tell their Muslim counterparts that, in addition to dishing out criticism, they must learn how to take it."

I think the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, George Pell, is prepared to do that, and unlikely to backflip, no matter how the Lakemba Mosque reacts.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200609/s1743863.htm

Last Update: Monday, September 18, 2006. 7:30pm (AEST)
Pope has nothing to apologise for: Pell

The Catholic Archbishop of Sydney has backed the
controversial speech Pope Benedict XVI made in
Germany last week that linked Islam to violence.
[...]
"I think what he feared has been established and
that is that if there is some sort of criticisms,
even mild, there are elements among the Muslims
who will resort to violence or threaten violence."

---
RIP
ROP
Born 610 AD
Died 20?? AD
Buried at Hamongog

Posted by: Xaragma at September 18, 2006 10:01 AM

1. I found, in the articles already posted, Pope Benedict's university address at Regensberg. Please read it if you haven't already. Now for my own thoughts.

2. My own personal reaction to the Pope's so-called apology is one of mixed feelings. On one hand I understand that the Pope is not only in a religious situation, but a political one as well. He certainly must be mindful of all Christians in the Middle East. I'm glad though that he hasn't repudated his lecture. In the new Catechism the Church accepts all that is holy and good. That would include certain aspects of Islam as well. Take mono-theism as opposed to poly-theism. This is one common ground between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Certainly one can get into further discussions about the Trinity, but let us say at a basic level we all believe in a mono-theistic G-d.

3. However, the Pope recognizes that violence, certainly a lesson the Church has learned with it's own past experiences during the inquistion, is not the way that G-d has called us to present the truth. Even Jesus rebuked Peter to put away his sword.

4. The muslim community though seems bent on the way of the sword. I have often felt that the Muslim world need some form of Martin Luther to remove this conversion by sword ideology. Pretty funny that a Catholic Pope seems to be the one to start a dialogue on this very idea. A muslim religion that would be free of the sword; i.e. violence.

5. However, sadly, it appears that most people appear to be unable to read what the Pope actually wrote. I am guessing that Journalism school left out reading comphrension and replaced it was multi-culturalism.

6. I am saddened that we can not even discussion this problem openly in society. The muslim reaction to the Pope's remarks have proven that.

Peace,
Monkeywho

Posted by: Monkeywho at September 18, 2006 10:04 AM

It's time for someone to sermonize the violent jihadists from their own book: The Quran. According to the Quran, the world is full of fake, hypocritical moslems who call themselves "peacemakers" when in fact they are two-faced and violent blood-spillers for whom Allah has a "most grievous" end.

Hey, if I had the bully pulpit, I'd quote them the Quran verse and chapter. I'd call them minions of Shaitan, mischief-makers, companions of the fire.

Hell, I'd hoist them on their own scimitar!

The wrath of Allah is coming first and foremost to the murderers for mohammad. The only ones going to "jan" or "paradise" to that botanical wonderland are the innocent souls struck down by their devilish.

I feel so strongly about this, I sent the President and Vice-President a certified letter and several emails explaining the exact language to use.

I'm waiting with baited breath.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 18, 2006 10:06 AM

"the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia has defended the spirit of Jihad (Holy War) in Islam, calling it a legitimate right granted by God."

from Le Monde, via http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2006/09/17/stop-the-lies-terrorism-and-violence-have-nothing-to-do-with-religion/

Reason has no place here at all.

Posted by: Silvester at September 18, 2006 10:09 AM

Islam is too above criticism - it's the ultimate message of the one true god, and trumps all others. The article seems to presume all religions are equal, that the 'final prophecy' should be subject to the same scrutiny as all the previous, false prophecies. This is an irresponsible insult to Islam and the Telegraph should humbly apologise for offending 1.5 billion peaceful Moslems, pronto...

Posted by: Domestos at September 18, 2006 10:12 AM

***********************************

Due to the Pope's remarks and growing alertness to the threat we all face I am please to announce -

I have changed from

Churchill1938

to

Churchill1939

This is to reflect the change that occurred to how Churchill was percieved in these years before the Nazi's were finally taken seriously.

CHURCHILL

1938
When he was 64, he continued his unpopular warnings about Germany and Hitler in his newspaper columns. He also wrote another a book called Step by Step. These were said to be depressing times for Churchill, and perhaps the lowest point of his career. On the other hand, he did have the satisfaction from writing his books.

1939: Asked to be Prime Minister
World War II broke out in September 1939 when Germany marched into Poland. Britain and France responded to the invasion of Poland by declaring war on Germany. The German attacks on Norway, Holland and Belgium ended public confidence in Prime Minister Chamberlain, and he resigned. King George VI then asked the 65-year-old Churchill to be Prime Minister. British political parties agreed to form a wartime coalition government.

Gave stirring speeches
Churchill set the tone of his leadership in his first report to the House of Commons, "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat." It was only the first of his stirring wartime speeches, which knit the country together and inspired people around the world.

I feel that we are getting close to having a new Churchill - whomever that may be - the climate is ripe for people to listen.

Posted by: Churchill1939 at September 18, 2006 10:13 AM

Agreed: there is need for religious dialogue with Muslims concerning violence. The West needs to listen to the Muslims and understand that every word and letter and contradiction in the Quran is precisely and exactly from Allah, and that Christianity and Judaism are the results of tampering with the Torah and the Gospel.
Christians and Jews then can make their appropriate apologies. Then the Muslims can further demonstrate their point by shooting a nun in the back.
What could be simpler than that?
Once this dialogue takes place we can then edit all of our historical, geographical and scientific textbooks, slap some of our wives around a bit, copulate with our housekeepers and/or lawn-boys and send our 9 year old daughters off to marry their cousins.
And if someone in the neighborhood is a child molester and serial killer we have the perfect way of dealing with this: declare him a prophet and demonstrate how he is the perfect man.
Now I get it.

Posted by: Sansantiago at September 18, 2006 10:13 AM

A very nice thing about the Pope scandal is that we get to see more of Delia Gallagher on CNN. This girl is smoking hot! But she should move to Fox News, where the news babes show off their legs and other assets. CNN would get much better ratings if girls like Heidi Collins and Delia were not hid behind a stupid desk.

Posted by: george_rem at September 18, 2006 10:15 AM

Everytime a statement of truth from non-Muslims comes out, based on the true historic record, Muslims go into a panty tightwade over the real historic information of the history of Islam. They are simply living in denial.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 18, 2006 10:24 AM

muslims are totalitarians, they cannot accept criticism.
You cannot be "a little in favor of gulag" or have "a joyful penchant for beheadings" but be a gentleman for the rest.

They will wage war against the Free World until they will be stopped and given a SERIOUS reason for reconsidering their past and their goals.

No other way.

Posted by: POITIERS-LEPANTO at September 18, 2006 10:24 AM

Xaragma....

It was the Sydney Archbishop right???

Thank God because if he was in Victoria he would be in trouble with VCAT, and pretty soon he would be sued. (Just like the Pentecostal preachers Mr Nalliah and Pastor Scott)

Posted by: W_D_J_D at September 18, 2006 10:24 AM

W_D_J_D

> It was the Sydney Archbishop right???

Yes, definitely Sydney. Apparently "Sheikh" Hilali
and others have responded in the print media ... unfolding story.

Islam. A dog turd on the front lawn of life.

Posted by: Xaragma at September 18, 2006 10:35 AM

Both Islam and Christianity have nothing to show for themselves as faiths to guide their perplexed masses of people in terms of universal moral conduct. Their respective adherents should restrain themselves (or shut up) when it comes to advance their usual half-baked self-righteous diatribes. From a historical perspective both religions have blood of their hands. And I mean a lots of blood.

The only difference is that Islam (as a social and political movement)is now willing to use the process of reverting to the old medivial obscurantist and appauling drive to supremacy through the mass murder, to which the Church in its heydays of glory can testify to and teach a lesson or two to humanity.

My point is that there is no use to say "we are better than thou" unless we rid ourself of our own religious ethnocentrism.

Posted by: sammish at September 18, 2006 10:40 AM

Poster above

My point is that there is no use to say "we are better than thou"

Sure. Move to saudi arabia or iran and enjoy it.

Posted by: POITIERS-LEPANTO at September 18, 2006 10:45 AM

What is the "submission" involved in Islam? It is submitting one's mind, will, and soul to death, darkness, and evil. It is submission of one's conscious and morality to the base, primal urgings of death, darkness, and evil.

Jihad=Mein Kampf Mohammed=Hitler Islam=Nazism

Posted by: yohannbiimu at September 18, 2006 10:54 AM

sammish

the difference my friend is within the texts that both faiths hold to.

the muslims who have done attrocites are only acting out in regards to what muhammed said in the koran.
thus true muslims.

the "christians" who in the past have done these things did so totaly contrary to the words of Jesus. thus not real christians.

Posted by: W_D_J_D at September 18, 2006 11:00 AM

Sammish:

An Italian nun was recently gunned down in Somalia. She was living a quiet life, serving her God through service to others, even through service to those who hated her for her faith. This is Christianity. If there is an Islamic equivalent, I'd be happy for you to point it out.

Posted by: Chatillon at September 18, 2006 11:02 AM

The problem with muslim community taking any criticism is that most of these people are piss poor and don't understand what anybody is saying and they just listen to the self-proclaimed, fanatic leaders of their community who just wanna exploit them. I think we need just get rid of these leaders first before any ordinary muslim and even educated muslim can enter into a dailogue with the western world.

Posted by: vonbueren at September 18, 2006 12:14 PM

It's ridiculous that some muslim leaders have compared the Pope to Hitler and Mussolini, for using that 'hot' quote, especially when the islamic prophet himself has uttered words like:
"I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim." (Sahih Muslim, book 19, no. 4366) and his 'peaceful & tolerant' followers have succesfully caried out his will.

And then there's also this genocidal phantasy from the sahih Muslim hadith collection:
"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews." (Sahih Muslim, book 041, no. 6985)

more at: http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/islamstart.html

Posted by: Tinero at September 18, 2006 12:25 PM

sammish, your personal "I am better than thou" attitude doesn't allow you the necessary humility to check historical facts and official church declaration.

Do you still think the church stand by the Inquisition? Do you still think the church is against galileo?

I suggest you to check facts rather than professing "superiority" in lecturing us about things of no importance.

Posted by: FedUp at September 18, 2006 12:42 PM

I read the entire speech by the Pope. To me it made little sense to quote Manuel’s statement if he was then going to disassociate himself from it totally. If there is this disassociation, then that means that it’s not crucial to the Pope’s argument. Thus, the main argument, which (I believe) is that God is not whimsical and does not want us to believe in irrational things, became obscured.

This may be an interesting argument, but I’m still waiting for a Western leader to state what must be said in no uncertain terms: that jihad is evil. The practice of jihad is evil. The theory of jihad is evil. This must be communicated, unalloyed with any allusions to Medieval potentates, by Western leaders, either by Bush, or Blair, or the Pope – by someone!!

It would engender the same irrational response by Muslims, but it must be said. It must be said because it is completely compatible as a defense of the West, as a defense of freedom of conscience. Anyone who would take the opposite side is essentially declaring himself an enemy of Western civilization.

Posted by: Tancred1099 at September 18, 2006 12:48 PM

Tancred, I too believe the Pope is trying to distance himself from his statement. Why did he say it the way he did if it didn't reflect his views? I think the Pope is in serious danger and hope he will survive this. I just hope he shows more courage in the face of evil and calls the Muslims out on the carpet for their reaction to his statements.

Posted by: cookiemonster at September 18, 2006 12:56 PM

Chatillon's comment is spot-on. IF there is some equivalent in the Islamic world to the selfless acts of those like the nun that was just gunned down, I'd like to see the proof.

When I hear of the arrival of Muslims, I hear of slavery, beheadings, riots, torture, tumult, anger, reprisals, bigotry, intimidation and terrorism. I do NOT hear of selfless acts for people outside their religion. I do not hear of actual charity. I do not hear of humanity and peace.

Those that would continue to try to tell the world that all religions are "created equal" need to just stop the madness now. There is truth, there is obvious truth and then there is painfully obvious truth. The painfully obvious truth here is that Christianity has proven itself to be a superior religion to Islam. In fact, all the "great" religions of the world deserve their spot in the sun with one exception -- and that is, of course, Islam. Islam is a lie, a dangerous cult, a manifestation of one man's madness and a pool of violence from which no end of death seems to spawn.

No sane person is fooled any longer. Islam is the Enemy.

Posted by: Foehammer at September 18, 2006 12:57 PM

Inasmuch as Muhammed was an infamous and pathological liar (for whom the word 'truth' held no meaning wahtever), who of us could say that the Kuran was NOT conceived by and delivered to our earthly Muslim dupes by Lucifer itself having taken on the perceived appearance of Jehovah? Not only is there absoutely no way for anyone to know IF this is this what really happened, there is no certain way to determine WHO actually was visited by our 'archangel Gabriel' and then given the 'Holy Book' or WHEN the alleged 'visitation' and accompanying unearthly dictation occurred. The Kuran could have originated twelve thousand years ago on Pluto and drifted to earth through space if Muhammed's credibility is any indication. Certainly Yahweh isn't al-lah and wouldn't have sent his archangel to earth ro spill out what's in the Kuran. Something is extremely fishy about the whole story (to say the least). That old Chinese adage applies to Islam rather nicely: "the fish stinks from the head down."

In other words there is no proof (or even assurance)that Lucifer ISN'T really al-lah by another name and there is no proof to determine WHEN the Kuran came into being. The implications of this are indeed apocalyptic: a global cult of genocide, torture, slavery and murder being given the legitimacy of God itself by man as Lucifer erases humanity's butt off the face of the earth in history's most serious case of mistaken identity. Just because 'Muhammed' said something there was never any reason to believe it? Why SHOULD anyone believe anything in the Kuran? Who in their right mind believes in the existence of talking trees and talkng rocks??? Christians believe in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus, but at least those things don't kILL anybody!

If the pope ever learns the REAL magnitude of evil of Islam, his fancy hat will go flying off his head at over 80 kilometers per hour. And so will everyone else's.

I have been rather concerned for some time now that al-Qaeda is going to attack if not destroy Vatican City. This article imcreases my concerns.

ps-Islamic attacks occur on a DAILY basis, with an average worldwide of at least three suicide bombings per 24 hour spans.

Posted by: pythagoras at September 18, 2006 1:06 PM

One of the best things to come out of this is that the world can see it's not about the Jews

Posted by: Seymour Paine at September 18, 2006 1:07 PM

SAMMISH: Whether or not you realize it, you lie-- and as a result have done a terrible disservice to humanity of no small magnitude.

The Founding Fathers of the United States were CHRISTIANS my friend and it was THEY who drafted the Constitution of the United States. The same applies for the Magna Carta of Britain. These are the two finest charters for any government in world history. The recognition of the human being as an autonmous individual worthy of rights that must be recognized by the state has encouraged peoples from nations all over the planet to emigrate to these two countries in order to live under such human rights protections. Human rights as we know them are largely rooted in the teachings of Judeo-Christianity. No one wants to live in a Communist or Islamic country if they can help it, a fact which testifies to the righteousness of Judeo-Christian teachings.

No Islamic country helds comparable respect for human rights (not even close), and most of what rights they have have been borrowed from the western, Christian democracies (when possible, and that is not often). People flee the Islamosphere whenever possible and their usual destination is the western democracies. No one runs to Mother Russia or Red China for protection of their liberties either, believe me.

I ask you, can you really see the Mullahs of Iran drafting the Constitution of the United States and the Magna Carta? Think about it.

Posted by: pythagoras at September 18, 2006 1:24 PM

Churchill1938 / Churchill1939, I cannot wait until you can change your moniker to ChurchillVDay1944.

Posted by: special_guest at September 18, 2006 1:26 PM

sammish said

My point is that there is no use to say "we are better than thou" unless we rid ourself of our own religious ethnocentrism.

No, I believe your point is on the top of your head.

Posted by: special_guest at September 18, 2006 1:49 PM

"cookie moster, I believe you are totally clueless on the whole matter."

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not sorry about what I said. Also, being upset at someone having an opinion that doesn't match up to yours doesn't make me clueless, but does make you look stupid..

Posted by: cookiemonster at September 18, 2006 2:17 PM

Yet again Islam portrays itself and gets annoyed when the world doesnt like what it sees.

See these letters to the Times, especialy the one from THE REV PAUL SPILSBURY (page 2)

Tell it like it is

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,59-2362591,00.html

Posted by: g hadi hater at September 18, 2006 3:00 PM

Show me where I twisted my opinion.

Posted by: cookiemonster at September 18, 2006 6:33 PM

.......or don't.........

Posted by: cookiemonster at September 19, 2006 9:02 AM