If any of that be true, than you have no choice but to abandon Islam and encourage others ‎to do the same because of the true nature of Islam and its goal of dominance. ‎

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 19, 2006 1:35 PM

A humble suggestion:

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatian 5:1

ps. Chapter three of The Quran describes Jesus as having been born through immaculate conception. It also calls him the Messiah: "ismuhu issa, masiichu."

Go with Jesus, the Messiah. Let Mohammad go.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 19, 2006 2:03 PM

Praising Americans could be hazardous to your health in Muslim Communities. Be careful.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 19, 2006 2:03 PM

A letter from a Moslem.

Know what? When I hear the words "intellectual honesty" and "I am a Moslem" in the same paragraph, the lids go down over my eyes and the doors shut on my ears.

Such a combination is impossible, and I mean that literally.

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

There are no Unicorns; there are no intellectually honest Moslems.

2 + 2 does not equal 5, however you may parse the arithmetic.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at September 19, 2006 2:04 PM

My reply to this man....

Dear Sir,

You seem to be one of the few bright spots in a religion where the majority of people like you remain silent amidst the radical madmen who delight in making trouble around our world.

60 years ago there were people such as yourself who remained silently to themselves while madmen dragged them to hell with them. These people were Japanese and Germans.

Islam is in grave danger from its fanatical followers and that danger must be faced, not only by non-Muslims but by practictioners for if you continue to remain silent, the lives of millions of people could be snuffed out in another world wide grand hollocaust.

The world will only absorb so much more Islamic stupidity until there is a backlash explosion. I can assure you that when that happens...none of you Muslims will escape, both the innocent and guilty among you will be sent to hell.

Heed some advice, look long and hard at pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to understand what happens to fanatical maniacs and innocent people when they allow a gang of thugs to rule over their country with a demonic religious fanaticism. Bushido brought death in spades to the people of Japan. If you Muslims push the rest of us over the edge we will wipe you all off the map without blinking an eye.

Takes this warning back to your fellow worshipers and make them stand up for their faith or be doomed to follow it into hell.

End quote.

Posted by: kisassdemos at September 19, 2006 2:12 PM

OK, my mind has just been changed. There are honest Muslims who can think for themselves and evaluate what goes on here.

I hope this gentleman will always be safe and protected by the Almighty while he speaks the truth as he sees it.

I've had some business dealings with Muslims in the past and I found those men in particular to be real slime balls and take advantage of others. It is gratifying to see one with a good heart and an honest way of thinking.

Posted by: Thomas Carney at September 19, 2006 2:14 PM

It is refreshing to see that some people DO understand. It would be nice to see more of this if it is genuine. (not the "war is deception" kind.)

Posted by: squire at September 19, 2006 2:15 PM

A very heart felt letter from an introspective reader. It has the ring of truth.

I echo the writer's humble thanks for all the hard work by Robert Spencer, and I also laud his composure, and his unflinching honesty.

Posted by: jsla at September 19, 2006 2:17 PM

"I'd prefer to live in a Republic, as opposed to a Democracy."

The United States is a representative republic not a democracy. In fact the founding fathers were terrifed of a democracy.

Other than that, it was a refreshing e-mail if only there millions like it.

Posted by: Hal at September 19, 2006 2:18 PM

Well now, one down 999,999,999 to go!

Posted by: Siciliano at September 19, 2006 2:34 PM

Are there any more of you guys out there who can come forward and write in a rational and totally honest manner?
What is the reaction of those you speak to? Have you changed any viewpoints within the muslim community?

Posted by: freetoBEfree at September 19, 2006 2:38 PM

I grew up among Muslims. I can honestly say it's rare to find a Muslim who is honest to himself.

I said, "rare," not "impossible."

Only a few of them honestly seek truth. Often, in the process of seeking they found truth in Christ.

To my fellow American, please don't celebrate too soon. Keep watch!

Robert Spencer,
Please don't relax. The minute you meet this man, a knive will pierce through you.

Posted by: ssa at September 19, 2006 2:39 PM

"The United States is a representative republic not a democracy."

Actually, the United States is a democracy, small "d", but not a Democracy, capital "D". As such, it can be characterized as a democratic Republic.

Posted by: remote_control at September 19, 2006 2:41 PM

Out of 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, that is the second moderate Muslim we've heard from in the past week. It's turning into a deluge.

Posted by: special_guest at September 19, 2006 2:47 PM

so how is a democracy vastly different from a republic...im seriously asking.

Posted by: Avatar at September 19, 2006 2:52 PM

This doesn't surprise me one bit. My best mates are Moslems - have been for years. They listen to everything I have to say on Islam, every difficult truth and every spurious conjecture. In fact, what did surprise me was that these friends kept on coming back - each time I went into a frothing monologue against Islam I thought "well, won't be seeing him again", but they rise above it. And slowly, over many conversations, they give me hope.

Aside from that, other Moslems have given me employment when I was destitute. They've fed me when I was hungry, and bought me booze when I was down, even though they wouldn't drink themselves.

They employed my father for 25 years and so enabled my working class parents to bring up a large, middle class family, and later enabling them to buy a dream retirement villa in the south of France (so i don't have to look after 'em).

In fact, I'm off round one of my mates houses now, where I'll spend the rest of the evening drinking his beer and smokin' his dope, while dissing his culture and everything his religion stands for.

In every sense, Moslems are a class apart, and secular ones are an altogether class act. I only read JW/DW because it makes this distinction between (infallible) ideology and (v. fallible) people.

And I've no doubt our friend above is but one of millions of conscientious, intelligent liberal Moslems who will not stand idly by while the Salafists wreak their chaos.

I'm off to get laggared. Read you all's later eh.

Posted by: Domestos at September 19, 2006 2:53 PM

to AVATAR"

Republic v. Democracy

by David Barton

We have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a republic, not a democracy.1 Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy:

[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.2 James Madison

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.3 John Adams

A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way.4 The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.5 Fisher Ames, Author of the House Language for the First Amendment

We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate . . . as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism. . . . Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.6 Gouverneur Morris, Signer and Penman of the Constitution

[T]he experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.7 John Quincy Adams

A simple democracy . . . is one of the greatest of evils.8 Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration

In democracy . . . there are commonly tumults and disorders. . . . Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.9 Noah Webster

Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state, it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.10 John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.11 Zephaniah Swift, Author of America's First Legal Text

Many Americans today seem to be unable to define the difference between the two, but there is a difference, a big difference. That difference rests in the source of authority.

A pure democracy operates by direct majority vote of the people. When an issue is to be decided, the entire population votes on it; the majority wins and rules. A republic differs in that the general population elects representatives who then pass laws to govern the nation. A democracy is the rule by majority feeling (what the Founders described as a "mobocracy" 12); a republic is rule by law. If the source of law for a democracy is the popular feeling of the people, then what is the source of law for the American republic? According to Founder Noah Webster:

[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.13

The transcendent values of Biblical natural law were the foundation of the American republic. Consider the stability this provides: in our republic, murder will always be a crime, for it is always a crime according to the Word of God. however, in a democracy, if majority of the people decide that murder is no longer a crime, murder will no longer be a crime.

America's immutable principles of right and wrong were not based on the rapidly fluctuating feelings and emotions of the people but rather on what Montesquieu identified as the "principles that do not change."14 Benjamin Rush similarly observed:

[W]here there is no law, there is no liberty; and nothing deserves the name of law but that which is certain and universal in its operation upon all the members of the community.15

In the American republic, the "principles which did not change" and which were "certain and universal in their operation upon all the members of the community" were the principles of Biblical natural law. In fact, so firmly were these principles ensconced in the American republic that early law books taught that government was free to set its own policy only if God had not ruled in an area. For example, Blackstone's Commentaries explained:

To instance in the case of murder: this is expressly forbidden by the Divine. . . . If any human law should allow or enjoin us to commit it we are bound to transgress that human law. . . . But, with regard to matters that are . . . not commanded or forbidden by those superior laws such, for instance, as exporting of wool into foreign countries; here the . . . legislature has scope and opportunity to interpose.16

The Founders echoed that theme:

All [laws], however, may be arranged in two different classes. 1) Divine. 2) Human. . . . But it should always be remembered that this law, natural or revealed, made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source: it is the law of God. . . . Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine.17 James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice

[T]he law . . . dictated by God Himself is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times. No human laws are of any validity if contrary to this.18 Alexander Hamilton, Signer of the Constitution

[T]he . . . law established by the Creator . . . extends over the whole globe, is everywhere and at all times binding upon mankind. . . . [This] is the law of God by which he makes his way known to man and is paramount to all human control.19 Rufus King, Signer of the Constitution

The Founders understood that Biblical values formed the basis of the republic and that the republic would be destroyed if the people's knowledge of those values should ever be lost.

A republic is the highest form of government devised by man, but it also requires the greatest amount of human care and maintenance. If neglected, it can deteriorate into a variety of lesser forms, including a democracy (a government conducted by popular feeling); anarchy (a system in which each person determines his own rules and standards); oligarchy (a government run by a small council or a group of elite individuals): or dictatorship (a government run by a single individual). As John Adams explained:

[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy; such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable [abominable] cruelty of one or a very few.20

Understanding the foundation of the American republic is a vital key toward protecting it.

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 19, 2006 2:59 PM

A refreshing read. I wish this "humble ambassador" well in his encounters within his community.

Posted by: yadayada at September 19, 2006 3:06 PM

Yes, there are other Muslims like that out there. I am one and have identified myself as such before. Although, I wasn't raised to hate Jews, America, Christians, etc (there are both Christians and Jews in my family too). However, my family is EXTREMELY RARE. I was raised in the US for most of my childhood. My husband was not but espouses all the same beliefs I do. We do the same as this man when we are around other Muslims - which we sort of avoid anyway for reasons I'm sure are obvious to you.

We don't want to live in an Islamic state. We prefer whatever you call America - democracy or Democracy or pure on Republic. We disagree with this man - we are very very much pro the Iraq war. We believe that Hussein was a rising Hitler and he basically said so.

There ARE Muslims like us who speak out. We even publish articles. Check out Danielpiper.com, for example. We also speak out in the Middle East. Some of that has been caught on MEMRI.com under the subject heading "reform". Unfortunately, we are in the EXTREME minority and we do not provide scapegoats for Middle Eastern society's problems. Do you really think that the modern day SS (what hubby and I call the modern day Ummah) is going to listen to logic? I think that the reaction the Pope's benign speach was a testament to that.

I don't think this will end without bloodshed. Those freaks want world domination ala Hitler and Stalin and we're going to have to fight them. Websites like this one keep people in America focused on what we're dealing with. Speaking on behalf of my family, we are grateful for that.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 3:06 PM

Domestos:

The Muslims you describe sound like more people that would be better off as Apostates to Islam to me, because they certainly are not Muslims be any definition of the Qu'ran that I have read. You drink their beer? Do they have pork in the fridge to?

Islam itself is the problem, not the individuals in its grasp that are "cultural" Muslims on the fringes. These "unicorns", as they should be called perhaps, are the rarer Muslims, the timid Muslims, the Muslims that will not lead the rest out of the darkness for fear of reprisal and violence from the Islamic leadership and the terrorists.

Islam is still the problem. We can try to candy-coat it all we wish with heart-warming stories of a do-gooder here and a well-wisher there, but when we wake up to the news, what do we hear about -- bombings, suicide murders and threats of genocide.

Sorry, I think I'll keep my guard up a few more decades. But I'm glad to know that there are "unicorns".

Posted by: Foehammer at September 19, 2006 3:07 PM

Domestos,

Just read your post. Good, I'm glad. I buy wine as gifts but I don't drink myself. I'm a secular "to each his own" Muslim. I'm sure there are millions like us. Unfortunately there's about 1.3 billion of us total and we are a small fraction compared to about 60-70 years ago.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 3:10 PM

Foehammer,

"The Muslims you describe sound like more people that would be better off as Apostates to Islam to me, because they certainly are not Muslims be any definition of the Qu'ran that I have read."

This is the only thing that irritates me on this site. Who the hell gives anyone the right to decide whether a person is apostate or not? Isn't that sort of God's job, not ours? I mean, the Catholic church considers Protestants and Jews apostate. Was Martin Luther an infidel? So what? Whether those Muslims are apostate or not is not the salient point. The point is, they don't buy into the world domination ideology. And that's all we really care about.

There are clerics who don't buy into this crap either, like the prominant Shia cleric in Iraq who keeps commanding his followers to help Americans. But Al-Sadr keeps trying to have him killed and "Help America" is not as snazzy a headline as "Al-Sadr Vows A catastrophe (or whatever) on America". So, I guess you're going to tell the pro-American cleric he's apostate? Not for you to judge, my friend.

Bottom line is that once these Islamists get their asses handed to them, they'll be forced to come around to our way of thinking, internalize their heart's desire, or die trying to kill us. Apostacy or not in this context is irrelevant.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 3:20 PM

It would be good to see what the individuals are like, instead of the sensationalized murder we see in the news. I know that we are all born w/ empty stomachs. We build schemes around ourselves to keep ourselves fed.

That's why I like this site. It is good grounding for someone like me who wants to learn the core causes of the problems, scriptural or secular that are causing harm and still have posters who have the spine to call a spade a spade when appropriate.

Posted by: squire at September 19, 2006 3:31 PM

Thank you citycat for being here.

Posted by: freetoBEfree at September 19, 2006 3:45 PM

“In fact, I'm off round one of my mates houses now, where I'll spend the rest of the evening drinking his beer and smokin' his dope, while dissing his culture and everything his religion stands for.”

Yep Domestos is properly a Brit. In fact he sounds like most of my mates.

Posted by: Mert at September 19, 2006 4:04 PM

citycat: VERY good post you're very correct I was about to say the same thing.

Posted by: bff at September 19, 2006 4:07 PM

citycat:

You stepped on the wrong landmine with me.

Ready?

I've already called for the OUTLAWING of Islam in the United States and all Western nations. You think you're going to get sympathy from me because you behave yourself and don't outright call for a Caliphate in the United States? Think again.

What gives me the right to do what? I made no call for people to do anything -- I stated what I FELT people would be better off doing, just like every Muslim in the world would be better off doing IN MY OPINION, because, unless you've lost your senses completely, in the United States opinions are still free, words are still unchained and BRAINS are still in USE!

You can attempt to blind people to Islam's true nature -- you can try to allow Islam to perpetuate itself in our midst by any means you can find -- even peaceful means, but at the end of the day *I* know exactly what this will end up empowering -- and that is the continued existence of Islam in the West, and thereby, the continued THREAT to freedom, secularism, sanity, enlightenment, reason, civil rights, law, order, music, merriment, literacy, the pursuit of happiness and many more things so precious that I'd rather DIE than see them destroyed.

Take your kindness to some other forum where it will do some good -- like a Muslim forum. Try to banter with them and see if my response ends up sounding like the tinkling of windchimes in comparison! You will find that you are condemned by your own and most likely facing worse.

My recommendation stands. All peaceful Muslims that are in Western nations should toss off the shackles of the lie that is Islam and take up the baton of freedom as soon as possible. That is, unless you are so desperately afraid of free-thought, free women and living in harmony with others without attempting to force fascist dogma upon the world!

Foehammer, out!

Posted by: Foehammer at September 19, 2006 4:13 PM

What a great letter; it was also nice to hear from citycat.

A few days ago, one of the local tv stations in metro Detroit interviewed a young Muslim man in the dreaded 18-40 age bracket regarding the words of the Pope. This young man (I'm guessing he was about 25) simply stated that he didn't agree with what the Pope said, but there was no reason to resort to violence over it. He didn't seem to have any agenda, and in fact, would have probably been given more airtime had he gone on a tirade.

It's very easy to get caught in black/white thinking. Over the years, there have been Muslims around the world who have helped the U.S. government, putting themselves at great risk. I'm sure that's still happening today. However, it's not something that the media will report, so any pro Western activities in the Muslim world, especially in the Middle East, are essentially ignored.

Posted by: s at September 19, 2006 4:23 PM

S:

Yes, and how many Western nations went to the aid of Muslims in Eastern Europe only a few years ago and also to the aid of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and the Persian Gulf, only to get rewarded with 9/11 and train/subway bombings for our efforts?

Enough sugar. I'm all out of sugar.

Posted by: Foehammer at September 19, 2006 4:26 PM

very well written, articulate to the point where i doubt that it is genuine, but i do hope that it is.
citycat - keep up the good work and stay safe.

Posted by: M Al-Content at September 19, 2006 4:48 PM

(My recommendation stands. All peaceful Muslims that are in Western nations should toss off the shackles of the lie that is Islam)

Islam is waivering between those who believe the faith can be peaceful and those who fear losing their power, their guns and their hords of gold, greed and lust to the asured destruction of modernity and civility.

Islam can only be made right through tribulation where the true persons of goodness and faith pick up the arm of the once worked to death slave and defend what is just against the arm of the slave holder.

Radical Islam can only be destroyed by those of the faith and they can only get the power when they are backed by the armed might of the free world. When the maniacs are trembling and throwing bodies out the doors of their bunkers as our bombs reduce their support to dust, that will be the sign that we have reached the tipping point of this war.

Posted by: kisassdemos at September 19, 2006 4:50 PM

Foehammer, brains is what you are lacking. Outlawing Islam? You suggest we use billions to deport all Muslims? Or is genocide more viable for you? You claim to believe in freedom yet you wish to deny it to those who are not like you. In any case, if Muslims stand firmly against violent Jihad and for Western values than they are my friends. If reform is at all possible it will come from those types of people. You, however, pose a danger to our "democractic Republic" because of your bull headed opinions.

Posted by: Skeptic at September 19, 2006 4:51 PM

Foehammer,

So your position is convert or die/go to prison/lose citizenship?

Where have I heard that before? Let me think......

Oh yeah!! Ayman Al-Zawahiri and Adam Gadeh. Nice intellectual company you keep, Foe.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 5:06 PM

Skeptic -
you say:
In any case, if Muslims stand firmly against violent Jihad and for Western values than they are my friends. If reform is at all possible it will come from those types of people.

People who stand against violent Jihad and for Western values are your friends, my friends and Foehammer's friends. But they aren't Muslims. They are apostates and hypocrites according to Allah in the Qur'an and to Mohammed in the ahadith. They call themselves Muslim because they have no other label to put on themselves.

you don't believe me? Muslims against violent jihad? read this from a world-reknown Islamic scholar who spent his whole life in study:

Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim." - Ayatollah Khomeini

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 19, 2006 5:07 PM

"Radical Islam can only be destroyed by those of the faith and they can only get the power when they are backed by the armed might of the free world. When the maniacs are trembling and throwing bodies out the doors of their bunkers as our bombs reduce their support to dust, that will be the sign that we have reached the tipping point of this war."

Pretty much.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 5:08 PM

"They are apostates and hypocrites according to Allah in the Qur'an and to Mohammed in the ahadith. They call themselves Muslim because they have no other label to put on themselves."

Just like Catholics who use birth control and have sex before marriage and divorce call themselves Christians. What do you care what they call themselves as long as they're not bothering you?

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 5:11 PM

citycat - they are bothering me. By calling themselves 'muslim' they confuse matters. They obstruct clear thinking and complicate the infidel vs. muslim definition. This is a problem for us in the free world.

They would not call themselves muslim if they weren't threatened with death.

Meanwhile they cause hesitation and this causes more deaths.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 19, 2006 5:15 PM

citycat - they are bothering me. By calling themselves 'muslim' they confuse matters. They obstruct clear thinking and complicate the infidel vs. muslim definition. This is a problem for us in the free world.

They would not call themselves muslim if they weren't threatened with death.

Meanwhile they cause hesitation and this causes more deaths.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 19, 2006 5:16 PM

Also - some people still call themselves muslim when they shouldn't but are in a place where they would not be killed. About these people... well, blame it on inertia, on 'what mamma would say', or blame it on denial that 'it can't all be that bad' or on some identification with a person or family that was loving and giving despite the command of allah and his creator, Mohammed.... blame it on all these things. They all bother me. They all put lipstick on the pig, in a matter of speaking.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 19, 2006 5:23 PM

Foehammer and Plague are right, and their comments don't make them Osama, Ayman or Abu Musab. Citycat, you acknowledge that you are a totally outnumbered minority. Why should the West, or the greater, extended land of Infidels/ bilad ul kafir - be expected to host the likes of you? That's how it started in almost all Western countries - Muslim refugees fled the tyrannical regimes in their home countries, and after coming to the West, replicated the mini ummahs in their host countries, pretty much like parasites. There ought to be a price for any Muslims who want to settle here, and asking them to renounce Islam is the least that should be expected. We Infidels should not be expected to put ourselves in danger just to satisfy the likes of you.

Islam should be outlawed. It's nothing like any religion, and it's more dangerous than any existing cult. Just because there may be a few exceptions doesn't mean that the practice of Islam, like the practice/advocacy of Nazism during WWII and Communism during the Cold War, shouldn't be eliminated. It's not the same as asking someone to stop being an Arab, or a Farsi, or a Malay...

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 19, 2006 5:28 PM

citycat,

you seem like a nice person, but Osama ruined things for you forever in the USA on 9-11.

Yea there are moderate Muslims, just as there are moderate Jews.

My tribe came over in the 1880's and the tribe is still heavily Jewish. Not all, but the vast majority. We're fed holocaust from childhood and every so often, a member goes off to Israel and comes back even more Jewish. Orthodoxy, ordinarily dormant, periodically effects some of our members. Intermarriage knocks out a few members but even they find a way to be MOTB. Point is: the overwhelming majority of Jews stick together and stick around.

As for the Moslems, the other tribe, the same will be true.

Now do you understand the fear?

Can you understand the fear?

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 19, 2006 5:42 PM

... as long as the Jew and cross worshipper keeps his place.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 19, 2006 5:48 PM

Plague,

I understand that for your own comfort you may need to categorize to the extreme. But I call myslef Muslim and I could easily call THEM apostate. Which one of us is right? I say it doesn't matter. If they're coming to kill us, they they won't be bothered by such details - and neither should you be. It takes the focus off the war on terror.

Incidentally, I have a whole list of clerics who agree with me. You just don't have their names because there are fewer of them and they don't seek global jihad - either privately or publicly. You believe what you believe because you - and the radicals - have a simplistic view of Islam. I don't fault you, the radicals happily practice and preach that very form of Islam to everybody and most "moderates" happily privately believe them (although not enough to pick up a sword themselves). Kinda like Nazi Germany. Also, in an Islam theocracy who has all the power? The Mullahs. So, wouldn't it make sense for them to get their little heard of monkeys to go out and fight for an empire for them?

I am a Muslim not because I feel threatened (I live in the US) but because I believe I am. "Islam" to surrender to God's will and "Muslim" one who surrenders. The issue at hand in the Islamic world is not who is Muslim and who is not. The issue is what is God's will? I don't believe in world domination and all that crap because I don't believe it's God's will.

I do believe:
No compulsion in Religion.
Avoid extremism.
If it contradicts itself [it is illogical], it is not from God.

The above is also in the Koran (not the "reason" the Pope was looking for in the last quote - the quote most ignored by Jihadi Mullahs). Conveniently, not heeded by the wider Islamic world, of course. But I do think that passifism is immoral. If someone breaks into your house and tries to kill your child, it is immoral to stand idly by. So, I believe in violence in self defense. To trump up a "self-defense" argument, the wider Muslim world makes up stuff about some non-specific "opression" by the West. Utter bullshit. On the other hand, we are fighting a war on terror because we were attacked - someone came over here and tried to kill our children. They are fighting a fascist war of domination. Very different.

What I'm telling you is that true Muslims can disagree with this crap and still be Muslims. But that doesn't mean you should hesitate. I'm sure there were Germans who completely disagreed with Hitler but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have bombed Dresden.

Patriot Act, phone tapping. Bring it on. We are at war. People like me have nothing to hide, so I'm not worried about it. But whatever you do, don't hesitate.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 5:48 PM

There may be hope for some of them yet.....

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at September 19, 2006 5:53 PM

citycat - what you say all sounds very good. I find myself agreeing with much of it, but then you say:

What I'm telling you is that true Muslims can disagree with this crap and still be Muslims. But that doesn't mean you should hesitate. I'm sure there were Germans who completely disagreed with Hitler but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have bombed Dresden.

Islam is not a nationality in the same sense as being German is. Islam is a system of beliefs. It is not in a person's DNA sequence - it's in his/her head...

if you believe this:
I do believe:
If it contradicts itself [it is illogical], it is not from God.

How can you reconcile any of it? Do you need proofs and quotes? Allah contradicted himself, he made mistakes in logic and simple mathematics, he made mistakes in science, made verifiable mistakes in Biblical history and other secular history ( Alexander the Great was muslim instead of a pagan alcoholic bisexual...) and so on... Mohammed made the same kinds of mistakes. Mohammed behaved immorally and inconsistenly with all Jewish and Christian teachings before him. You want to claim it was all wrong before him?

How do you keep belief in the Qur'an, Sunnah and Siratrasullah if you also believe that illogical things can't be from God?

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 19, 2006 6:05 PM

nkdoodle,

Do I understand the fear? umm..I think I've been making my understanding of that clear. I think I made my position on all that clear. Did you just miss my other posts?

Fedup,

I beginning to wonder about your IQ. "Apostacy" is an word in English. E-N-G-L-I-S-H. It means "renunciation or abandonment of a former loyalty". It is not an Islamic concept. If an English speaker "doesn't even know what apostate" is all it means is that he doesn't have a very good vocabulary.

"The Bible is NOT the DIRECT WORD OF GOD, but it's written by MEN."

Look, Christian expert, you obviously are not familiar with many Christians in the South (I grew up in the Bible Belt) who believe it IS the direct word of God. In addition, if you're so smart, you would know that Othman compiled the Koran - no Muslim (not even the freakjobs) claim that it was written by God himself.

"ISLAM has NOT UPDATED ITSELF."

I have never disagreed with that. That's why I said that I'm a minority. M-I-N-O-R-I-T-Y .

"Lastly, I read your previous posts saying that the dhimmi status wasn't that bad for dhimmis."

For the 100th time I said that it was a revolutionary concept FOR THE TIME - which was 1400 YEARS AGO (I write in Caps in hopes of finally making a dent in your reading comprehension skills). IT NO LONGER IS AND MUST BE REJECTED. AT THE TIME, Christian (and, frankly ALL) conquerers would kill the conquered or drive them from their land IN MOST CASES. Here, it might help if you picked up a book on ancient history for the first time in your life before you respond.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 6:10 PM

Islam has no credibility with me. Not even a mild watered down version.There is no negotiation or dialgue with Islam. Islam is incompatible and diametically opposed to the values I wish to see retained for this country(USA). It must be outlawed,banned,and the truth of it's destructive force revealed. There is no place for it in this country,it is a foreign virus.There is no place for your arrogant veiled women,not for mosques,not for CAIR,not even for the beer drinking dope smoking apostates...go away.Take your moderate message back to the umma and give it your best shot.Stop hiding in our country.I have a bellyfull of the lot of you and be warned... this attitude is growing by leaps and bounds daily.If you met nice Americans regards your religion they are uninformed, ignorant and naive but it's changing.I know...used to be one.

Posted by: solomonpal at September 19, 2006 6:21 PM

citycat,

This board is a support group for people suffering from 9-11 post-traumatic-stress-syndrome. Trying to convince us that Islam is a loosey-goosey proposition where the adherent gets to pick and choose what dogma to believe in (and still be Moslem), well...it ain't gonna fly.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 19, 2006 6:22 PM

i am not going to bash citycat.
in my opinion, to insist on painting all Muslims with same brush is in the end to force them all to be the same. there are enough fanatics out there already, we need allies wherever we can find them.
the fundamentalists are good at making enemies, and their enemies can be our friends.
remember Afghanistan just after 9/11 ? who was helping US special forces soldiers to begin to strike back ? did you think those guys in black robes were baptists ?
in the end, this may all come down to your tribe or my tribe, screaming and throwing rocks, but i think we have to at least try to avoid that.

Posted by: M Al-Content at September 19, 2006 6:25 PM

Fedup,
If you believe that the majority is always right then you believe that slavery was right and black segregation was right because the majority believed it. Gimme a break!

Plague,
The discussion of theology is much larger than what we can engage in here. And many a CLERIC agrees with me. There are MANY verses in the Koran - as in most holy books - that seem to contradict themselves. Even more Haddith do. Remember that religions split on interpretation very often. How many sects of Christianity are there for that very reason? I can do better than explain it myself. I will find a work translated or written in English by a Muslim theologian who will explain and quote Koranic verse in support. But I can't do it tonight (dinner time). Is there an email address I can send it to?

As for proofs and quotes - the things I quoted ARE from the Koran. Some of the problem is translation (from ancient Arabic connotation to modern Arabic connotation and interpretation of all sorts - including from Arabic to English). So, the most popular interpretation right now is: "we are opressed. Let's go on global Jihad and kill everybody who is not us, fellow Nazis. The following surahs and haddith say it's okay, even demand it. Charge!"

Frankly, I must tell you that sheik Tantawi of the Al-Azhar in Egypt believes that what I believe is fundamentally Islamic (from a conversation with him) even though he himself differs in his opinion about certain things I believe (like, I don't believe in theocracy and he does). You know the Allowites consider themselves Muslim and yet they celebrate Christmas and Easter?

Plague, do you seriously want to hold the "Muslim Inquistion" with me to determine whether I'm a "real" Muslim or not? What does it matter? I already said that I'm in the extreme minority. What's the substantive difference?

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 6:33 PM

Isn't it so typical that when I call for the OUTLAWING of Islam, I'm suddenly having apologists try to put terms and means into my writing that have never manifested or been suggested in anything I have ever typed here or on my own blog -- where have I ever called for the "genocide" of Muslims? Nowhere.

Where have I called for "mass imprisonment" of Muslims?

Again -- nowhere.

Outlawing Islam is what it implies -- if something is successfully outlawed -- like rape, murder, robbery, etc., then you are expected NOT TO DO IT. That would mean, yes, if you live in the United States and Islam is against the Constitution, then you must not preach it, profess it, follow it or perpetuate it. If this is something you do not wish to do, then you have the choices available to you as all FREE Americans do -- you can leave.

You can leave or you can cease being a Muslim. What you could not do is to continue being a Muslim in the United States! Simple enough.

If Muslims do not wish to comply with a law, then they become law-BREAKERS. We all know what that constitutes, I hope, and no further explanation is necessary.

Now, as far as my intellectual reasoning in this regard, I'm hardly going to sit here and say we should imprison Muslims that do not follow such an outlawing. Oh, no. I'm going to suggest what any intelligent person should under such a circumstance would suggest -- WE DEPORT THEM.

Canada -- let them eat their own social morays for once in mass quantities.

Mexico -- let them see what it's like to have thousands of illegals suddenly crossing THEIR border.

Africa, Europe, the Middle East, China -- there are plenty of destinations that a one way ticket can provide for and the cost to the Federal Government and U.S. taxpayers for such a mass exodus would surely be far less than we have already spent in blood and treasure in Iraq!

The United States will not do what I suggest, you can almost rest assured, so don't get your Qu'rans in a wrangle just yet. Oh, no. You'll sit in relative safety for a few more years I'm sure, until the "radical" *cough* Muslims succeed in murdering a million Americans in their sleep or at some time of holiday cheer and then what I suggest will look like a holiday of your own compared to the consequence of Americans finding themselves made the fool for the thousandth time and realizing that they have just lost friends and family members to an ideology that we should have long ago condemned.

You can attempt to demonize me all you want, but in the end I will be proven not only prescient, but downright magnanimous in my suggestions, because the alternative is going to be one gigantic mess for all involved and when the bullets start flying, don't think for a second that the culture that changed the globe is going to go out with anything less than a lot of big, very big BANGS.

I may not work for the Chicago Sun-Times or have a New York Times Best-Seller to my credit, but don't be too quick to think that I'm incapable of judging these situations as astutely as anyone in these forums or outside of them. I only wish I was wrong more often about so much of this nonsense. I only wish I was an irresponsible, whimsical child-mind again -- this drudgery is infuriating, exhausting and stagnating. But the opposite is no way to live, our nations in constant fear and loathing of truth and ghostly enemies, so damnit, I will not just sit by and not be heard or read while it all goes to Hell!

Fight for what is right! That's how I was raised and I mean to do so, until the end.

(And lastly, to my fellow rational minds here now and in the past, my sincere thanks for your moral support and best wishes for our collective future.)

Posted by: Foehammer at September 19, 2006 6:35 PM

The following appeared in the Dallas Morning News, November 18, 2006, Page 12A:

Stand for What is Right (Page Editors Title for Letter)

"RE: "Cleared man cites prejudice -- he says being Muslim was reason he was arrested in cell case," September 8, Metro Section of the DMN.

I have been a Muslim for 30 years, and I have never been followed, harassed or stopped by the FBI or CIA or at the airport just because I'm a Muslim.

Our Scriptures say, "Be fair and just in our dealing," and "Stand up for what is right regardless of whom it is against."

For someone in the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) to say, "Every Muslim has been the victim of suspicion," is ignorance. Neither CAIR nor any other group speaks for all Muslims.

Some Muslims have to stop thinking that Americans are unintelligent. As an Imam, I will never say that I represent all Muslims because I know we have some bad ones and some who need to be checked out.

I'm all for that. I will not stand up for bad people.

(signed) Imam Muhammad Skakoor
Irving, Texas"

I thought the above was an interesting letter.

Posted by: SCV at September 19, 2006 6:39 PM

infidel Pride,

That what you propose would be fantastic and all if you guys didn't already have Farakhan's Nation of Islam around. Also, if this country wasn't created expressly FOR religious tolerance. Remember the founding fathers? Perhaps we should kick you out too? Why not? You sound like a member of the KKK. Why does America need the ideology of the KKK.

Incidentally, I'm a proud citizen and I proudly uphold the principals of the founding fathers. In addition, I'm willing to go to war to protect them. I'm an American first, my religion is my personal relationship with God and has nothing to do with you. Got that? No, probably not.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 6:41 PM

citycat:

The Catholic Church does not consider Jews and Protestants "apostate".

The Catholic Church defines Protestantism as a "heresy". There is a difference.

The Catholic Church considers Judaism as the root of Christianity.

I hope you are telling the truth. I hope you are not practicing taqqiyah, which is deception.

But I do not see how in God's green earth you can be a Muslim and a moderate. Islam Is radical. Islam has no room for moderation.

Also, are you a woman? I thought you were since you mentioned "hubby". If so, does your family make you wear a chador or burkah? I mean no disrespect, but I'm curious. Do you eat pork? Or drink liquor? I've never met a moderate Muslim so I wonder if they still abide by those teachings. And I'm not being sarcastic; I'm truly curious.

Posted by: atheling at September 19, 2006 6:46 PM

yankedoodle,

You know nothing about Islam and you insist on painting my "tribe" with the same brush as your tribe. Incidentally, I work with many many Jews and I don't find them AT ALL fanatically religious - even the very observant ones. Did I mention that I have Jews in my family? Lovely, lovely, fun wonderful people. And, seriously, TRIBES? What century do you live in? You do know that the Druze live in Israel with your "tribe" pretty much in peace and quiet. No, probably you don't.

It's funny you should mention 9/11. Guess where I was on 9/11. I still live in NYC. My post-traumatic stress got so bad, I bought a car to avoid public transport. See, here's the thing. The fuckers are not going to be asking questions before they explode trains, plains and buses. And if they did, I would be the one not moving out of the way to protect my fellow innocent civilians. Know why? Because I believe that God commanded me to protect innocent life. This belief does not seem to be shared by everyone on this board, though. Oh well, it's not for me to judge.

That's all I have time to for tonight. Peace out, y'all.

Posted by: citycat at September 19, 2006 6:54 PM

Oh Yaw
Now we are talking like true American's, we broke from Britain because we were being told how to talk, how to walk, and how too wipe our ass's. We came to America and formed the greatest nation on the globe.
This is for citycat, we live in our own nation. We are not telling the world to bow down before us. If you want to live here, you dammed right you better convert. In the not to distant future, it will be very dangerous to spot your Islamic dogma. For hundreds of year if you come to America you better convert, we demand it. That is what has made us what we are. We are free people, we do not want some kind of religion that makes it alright too be a bad person.
I am Irish Indian, and no I don't drink. Found it was better that way. I hold no bad feelings for what was done to my people. I am an America I am beyond that, we will win this betrayal of human kind.
Too all the America's, keep speaking your mind, it is the American way.

Posted by: ironkitten at September 19, 2006 6:57 PM

Telling us about all this is one thing. Now, let's see you do something positive with this.

Words are cheap.

Posted by: pythagoras at September 19, 2006 10:47 PM

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”

Can we ever believe anything a Muslim says?

Any decent Muslim should simply leave Islam behind and convert to Christianity.
Islam is a death cult founded by a homicidical pedophile.

Posted by: Mike_W at September 19, 2006 11:13 PM

"We might not have the same political views. I am against the Iraq war."

"I am against the Iraq war."

For what reason? Did you think Saddam Insane was a good guy? Do you think that suffering and oppressed people should be left to die alone? Do you believe in just letting Islam slay Islam until it's exhausted? I hope that in time you will also see that your "Iraq war" views are perhaps also a product of brainwashing. I can't think of any "error-free" war that ever existed in the history of the world.

Posted by: Report at September 19, 2006 11:36 PM

"All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing" I know I am misquoting someone, but I'm too tired to remember who.

To Infidel: I do not consider Islam to be a religion but an ideology.

Posted by: Americat at September 20, 2006 12:06 AM

We might not have the same political views. I am against the Iraq war. I'd prefer to live in a Republic, as opposed to a Democracy.

This man although seems more advanced is still in the dark. He might know that democracy cannot live alongside islam.. that he prefers the saddistic saddam also really confuses me as well, when in the earlier paragragh he likes the founding US fathers, ie Jefferson. When this man is totally advanced, he will dump islam and become a human with a brain and heart.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 20, 2006 12:12 AM

am not going to bash citycat.
in my opinion, to insist on painting all Muslims with same brush is in the end to force them all to be the same. there are enough fanatics out there already, we need allies wherever we can find them. Posted by M-alcontent

I'm going to join you in not bashing citycat. She comes across as a rare anomaly, but sincere. Whether we admit it or not, we all harbor hope that non-aggressive, non-violent, non-imperialist muslims do exist out there among the hordes (as we are reminded daily) of muslims. Maybe, just maybe, there really are some genuinely patriotic muslim Americans who appreciate and love this country and want nothing more than to live their lives like normal people. Nobody wants to believe that any more than me but I must admit, I am a skeptic.

It is very difficult to trust muslims, to believe anything they say. Muslims are inveterate liars and most will readily admit that; it's a cultural thing. Maybe they can tell when they're lying to each other, but we cannot. We hear the most distinguished muslim scholars, politicians, and clerics lie every day, so why should we believe anything a muslim says? Sometimes I wonder if muslims are even capable of distinguishing truth from fallacy. But citycat sounds credible, so I'm going to take a chance.

Posted by: Susanp at September 20, 2006 12:23 AM

Let's look at the reportage of a poster named "s" above, but this time as though he were talking about a neo-Nazi (and a leading Jewish Rabbi, not the Pope):

A few days ago, one of the local tv stations in metro Detroit interviewed a young neo-Nazi man in the dreaded 18-40 age bracket regarding the words of the leading Jewish Rabbi Kohen, who recently made a controversial speech in which he quoted a Polish politician who said that the words and deeds of Hitler "brought only evil and inhuman things" into the world. This young man (I'm guessing he was about 25) simply stated that he didn't agree with what the Rabbi Kohen said, but there was no reason to resort to violence over it. He didn't seem to have any agenda...

Does that help? Are we seeing more clearly now?

Perhaps it would help to look at the same reportage as reporting a Ku Klux Klanner:

A few days ago, one of the local tv stations in metro Detroit interviewed a young member of the KKK in the dreaded 18-40 age bracket regarding the words of the leading African American politican Jesse Jackson, who recently made a controversial speech in which he quoted Martin Luther King who said that the words and deeds of the Klan throughout its history has "brought only evil and inhuman things" into the world. This young man (I'm guessing he was about 25) simply stated that he didn't agree with what Jesse Jackson said, but there was no reason to resort to violence over it. He didn't seem to have any agenda...

Still not awake, my little moderate Muslims and their admirers?

Posted by: remote_control at September 20, 2006 12:45 AM

I think Citycat genuinely doesn’t understand the terrain of the disagreement into which she stumbled. She sounds sincere and well-meaning.

Citycat, we are not challenging the strictly religious aspects of Islam. Please, worship any way you like, have whatever relationship to the the divine that works for you (as long as you don’t hurt anyone, of course). Religion is private, your business, and your typical fellow American is respectful of this.

We are challenging the military-political mass movement that is Islam, quite apart from its worship elements. This aspect, which has no parallel in any other religion (!), is an expansionist supremacism that is violent and very bigoted against all “others.” It has run roughshod over much of the earth whenever empowered. Sadly for us all, that is it’s Koranic form. That actually is the Islam that is found in the Koran, in the Hadith, and in the life of Mohammed (based on Sira). These cannonical texts teach the bigotry, the coercive conversion, the dimmitude, the dehumanization of “infidels.” And these nightmares (for infidels) are formalized by Sharia.

The Koran does not make violent jihad optional – it is required of all muslims. If you try to pick and choose, you are guilty of religious innovation. The radical clerics have the Koran on their side, the moderates do not. In fact it may be posited that Islam has been highjacked by misguided moderate moslems, to produce the benign “version” that nice people like yourself practice. But koranically, it’s a no-no. You sound like you have your practice, your faith, but it wouldn’t comport with an orthodox reading of the koran et al.

I support you in having your non-violent, other-accepting way of worshiping, but I know that you cannot rewrite the koran, and that others will continue to follow it, and when able will war in the way of Allah, as their book requires, as their Friday sermon exhorts them, as their madrassa education trained them.

Koranically speaking, they are correct. And they would declare your practice of “Islam” inauthentic. Surely you know this. And if not, ask around the umma.

This is the non-muslim’s problem.

I welcome all people to worship in peace in the way that works for them. But don’t mistaken our defence against Jihad for an intolerance of differing benign religious outlooks. Not at all.

And thank you for your sincere perspective, Citycat. I really feel for people of good will born into your predicament. And those who act out of their ethics against the wicked principle of Jihad have my deep respect and warmest thanks.

So, how are you going to stop their Jihad against us? You can’t, you say? What do you recommend?

Posted by: WestwardHo at September 20, 2006 1:52 AM

I am in complete agreement with Foehammer, Plague and Infidel Pride and other such kindred minds.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at September 20, 2006 4:20 AM

>However, after working and living in the US for some years, I have come to realize that all that I was told about Americans, were largely untrue. They are the kindest and most generous people I know.>>>

What is being left unsaid? That an American/Jew/Hindu has to overtly and perceptibly demonstrate his kindness and generosity to muslimes encountered....or else a muslime would bare his fangs and talons??

Who cares for a good conduct certificate from a muslime? It is fear for their lives that is taqiyyakily getting transmuted as *well-you-people-are- not- bad -as -imagined-yadayada*

koran hugging citycat has some audacity to talk about Jesus Christ and Christian values indeed:))No fairy tale ending for you.I am not exactly yearning to live happily ever afterrr with *you*.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at September 20, 2006 4:50 AM

Americat,

Einstein said that!

Posted by: Crows&Cows at September 20, 2006 5:26 AM

Exsgtbrown,

Thank you for enlightening me about democracy proper.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at September 20, 2006 5:51 AM

Foehammer and Citycat are both right.

The issues they are having are products of one that commonly divides the usual political left and right - the issue of viewpoint.

Foehammer takes the high level view (commonly right wing) and sees that fundamentally Islam is the issue. Correct

Citycat takes the personal viewpoint (usual left wing viewpoint) that it is a persons relationship to Islam that determines their behaviour - equally correct.

Both view points are correct BUT not the whole picture. Both must be dealt with to produce the desired outcome. One has to defeat Islamic ideology as Foehammer says, but one must also defeat those people that are inspired by Islam to war and conflict, as Citycat says.

I find that people take either the high level or personal view and cannot see the requirement for the other. We must see both.

Foehammer must understand that not all people that say they are Muslims are 'militants'.

And Citycat must see that there is a major issue with Islam that drives the 'militants'.

I think Robert does a very good job of holding this line.

And personally I think these comments would benefit if people here didn't pounce on every 'Muslim' that writes here. I value their viewpoint to understanding the issues we face.

Posted by: mazztr at September 20, 2006 6:00 AM

islam is no religion,period. What it was, and still is, has been clearly enunciated by many truth seekers.

It is blasphemous to equate it with Jesus Christ's Spoken Words.Jesus Christ is God in Human Form who did not establish some new fangled creed but says:

"I have not come to contradict,but to fulfill".

Also,the core essence-- "I Am That I Am" & "Be Still and Know That I Am God" are the very equivalents of what Veda(m)s and Vedhaantham of Hindus postulate.This has been highlighted by none other than Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharishi of Thiruvannamalai.Hence Hindus and Christians can look forward to a peaceful coexistence.

Not islime, which is vehemently antithetical to our infrastructure of values.Not only is ingratitude towards non muslims extolled, they strut about as *special people* demanding apologies,concessions,exoneration yadayada to be bestowed on them:-)The "moderates" are *potentially* militants ever poised to mutate and strike at any perceived slight.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at September 20, 2006 9:29 AM

Mazztr,

THANK YOU. We are in complete agreement. With one exception - I DO think that both must be dealt with. I have repeatedly said that the only way to fight Islamic ideology while leaving religious beliefs. I believe Foehammer is saying that's impossible and I'm saying it's not.

Incidentally, I'm completely right wing. I think the only way to fight these people is with force - it's the only thing they understand. But if we're goint to go to Iraq, we can't leave until we've won. If we do, the Islamists will use that as "proof" of our weakness as they did in after Somalia and general lack of retaliation after Islamists attacks on America in the 90's. I think Olmert's biggest mistake in the war this summer was that he was so laden with the "white guilt" which we impose on Israel that he didn't hit Lebanon hard enough. The only thing that will make Hezbollah back off is fear. In other words, I guess I agree with Reagan - "peace through strength".

WeswardHo,

Thanks for understanding.

you said:

"Koranically speaking, they are correct. And they would declare your practice of “Islam” inauthentic. Surely you know this. And if not, ask around the umma."

What I'm saying is that this is not true. What you wrote there is very much the Wahhabi school of thought. But the Al-Azhar, as one mainstream example, disagrees with such a literal reading of the Koran. In addition, there are disagreements all over the Muslim scholarly world about the issue of the literal reading of the Koran and even which Haddith are acceptable and which aren't - the haddith are not part of the Koran. And don't even get me started on abrogation. And don't forget about the various Muslim sects, including the Druze, Allowites, and Sufis among others. All these groups have different opinions on what it means to be Muslim and the reading of the Koran.

"So, how are you going to stop their Jihad against us? You can’t, you say? What do you recommend?"

I think if you look at my reply to Mazztr, above, it answers that question. If someone is coming to kill you, you go get them first. If someone is an enemy combatant in the field, you don't give them POW status. Basically, I think the US is doing a good job by going to Iraq, Afganistan and by sanctioning Ahmed-jihad in Iran (although, the French need to be weened off the American teet as they seem to be even more subversive to American interests - note the newest Chirac retreat). Basically, I am willing to do what it takes to defend America and its values against a fascist ideology.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 10:19 AM

"It is very difficult to trust muslims, to believe anything they say. Muslims are inveterate liars and most will readily admit that; it's a cultural thing. Maybe they can tell when they're lying to each other, but we cannot. We hear the most distinguished muslim scholars, politicians, and clerics lie every day, so why should we believe anything a muslim says? Sometimes I wonder if muslims are even capable of distinguishing truth from fallacy. But citycat sounds credible, so I'm going to take a chance."

Susan, I think you'll find that the clergy is not lying but committing logical errors. For example: They claim that Islam is a "Religion of Peace" but then they're A-okay with killing in the name of Islam. I think Mr. Spencer here points that out very very well on Jihadwatch. It's not a lie, it's rank stupidity. And you know what? Their populations in the ME swallow that kind of "logic" hook, line and sinker. They figure we in the West are similarly stupid. So if you're defining "truth" as "logic" (if a=b and b=c, then a=c MUST be true kind of logic) and "fallacy" is a break in logic, then NO. The wider Muslim world CANNOT distinguish between truth and fallacy. Again, the proof is in their own words.

I was never taught the political ideology and I neither believe in it nor want it. People like infidel on this board then say I am not a Muslim. I can no longer find his post about that but I thought about it last nigh. If your understanding of Islam is the political ideology (which has been handed to you by none other than Muslims themselves) or that the political ideology cannot be divorced from Islam, then you are free to call me an Apostate Muslim. Have at it. And if the Wahhabis agree with you, then my life is in danger - but I don't care.

I'm also not telling you all that your eyes deceive you. There IS A THREAT and it's HUGE!! I just want to be clear. BUT the good news is that there are people like me around who believe that religion is a personal relationship with God and Islam is religion. We also believe that if the Catholic church could separate itself from political ideology several hundred years ago, so can Islam. Seperation of Religion and state. Full stop. I was hoping that this would be taken as good news because killing all 1.3 billion people is going to be very hard work.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 10:41 AM

citycat,

I appreciate your perspective and am glad you are posting here. I've often written here that there has to be a distinction between Islam as religion and Islam as ideology. No one should object to a Muslim eating only halal, circumcizing their sons, or praying five times a day. All of us should resist those who want to impose Sharia and wage jihad.

Wahhabism is a viscous ideology and these ideological tendencies infect most of mainstream Sunni and Shia Islam as well. However, there are Muslims like yourself and even entire "Muslim" sects like the Ismailis that are legitimate religions without the infection of Sharia, jihad, and the other unsavoury aspects of Islamist ideology.

I teach in a public school and have dozens of Muslim students. Some are infected by Islamism while others are very normal teenagers from decent and open-minded families. Perhaps they would be considered bad Muslims but I truly believe that their human decency, if encouraged, can be the means of winning this war against Islamic totalitarianism. These young people as well as individuals like you are our best hope.

Posted by: Provoslavni at September 20, 2006 10:48 AM

Thank you so much, Provoslavni.

On a personal note, "provoslavni" means "Orthodox [Christian]" in Russian. Are you Orthodox? I speak Russian. There is something so beautiful about Russian Orthodox churches (particularly in Russia) and the Orthodox liturgy read in the Church.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 11:02 AM

city cat

im an ex muslim from the uk and a lot of your posts resonate with my views however i have rejected islam since 9/11. im sick of having to defend or speak for racist murderers. its easy citycat just quit the cult and suddenly all your irrational views will be gone.

Posted by: vernon73 at September 20, 2006 11:21 AM

Vernon,

Thanks. But the things is, I wasn't raised with those irrational views (RARE - I know). I guess, the fact is that I've never been part of the cult and I don't consider myself part of this satanic "ummah", so effectively I was never in the cult and I'm not in it now. As some people pointed out, I am not a Muslim in their eyes or in the eyes of the cult.

I have come to the conclusion that I'm okay with that statement. I'm certainly completely out of the mainstream. I'm assuming you were sunni?

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 11:30 AM

daily mail uk 20.09.06
honor killing of a 6 YEAR OLD GIRL!!!!!!!!!!
in retaliation for her brothers "misdeeds"
SORRY NO LINK BUT PLZ CHECK IT OUT

When will it end?

Posted by: vernon73 at September 20, 2006 11:32 AM

citycat,

5:33 (YUSUFALI) The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

That passsage is in UBL's copy of the Qur'an, and it's in yours, too.

How does your interpretation of that ayah differ from that of a literate Muslim fundamentalist?

Posted by: PRCS at September 20, 2006 11:40 AM

i dont think that this thread should become a witchhunt against city cat.

Posted by: vernon73 at September 20, 2006 11:46 AM

Citycat,

Thanks for the reply. I understand that you are 'right wing' in your support of direct action against jihadists. And thank you for replying to all the questions people are asking!

However Re: "...the only way [is?]to fight Islamic ideology while leaving religious beliefs. I believe Foehammer is saying that's impossible and I'm saying it's not."

I do side with Foehammer in regard to this. The GREAT FEAR we have is that we feel every subscriber to the religion (in whichever flavour) has the POTENTIAL to return to "Pure Islam" as called by Osama and his ilk.

In the UK this is around 1.6million people. And take it from me EVERYONE is petrified - politicians, police, army, the person on the street. We have the MCB direcly threatening the UK with their (UK muslims) violent action if (in the usual style) the UK acts to stop terrorism.

In repsonse to this the message we anti-jihadists must give is the truth that at the core of Islam is a non negotiable violent global domination orientated theology.

From this point of clarity we can move forward - in clear thinking, in discussion and in war against it.

This was the point the Pope was making - to have discussions people have to be honest about their beliefs or the callings of the belief they subscribe to. Islam/Muslims continuously fail to speak the truth about itself/themsleves.

And, in relation to people on this board, I think there is a great desire for them to see that Muslims themselves recognise this fact and proclaim it.

Hence you are getting comments asking for you to do so - and I'm not sure that you have yet.

#####

Also: "BUT the good news is that there are people like me around who believe that religion is a personal relationship with God and Islam is religion. We also believe that if the Catholic church could separate itself from political ideology several hundred years ago, so can Islam. Seperation of Religion and state. Full stop"

The desire for the follower of their religion is to see more people follow it and to live it more fully. There will always be a drive to influence society by the religious. Separation makes it less possible, but does not make the religion less potent. It's not a solution. A permanent solution is the removal of the ideology from the world.

Additionally the separation of Church and State is possible in Christianity (the USA model) as there is no calling by Christ for an earthly Kingdom - not so in Islam. Islam continually drives to implement an earthly kingdom.

/done.

Posted by: mazztr at September 20, 2006 12:20 PM

PRCS,

Happy to answer that, although I'm not an Islamic scholar. Citycat has a happier and more worthwhile profession. But then what good is belief if it has to be interpreted for you by someone else.

I have always read that as: "If your nation is attacked [unprovoked] then you must fight to defend your nation. If you do not defend your nation, but work to subvert it [mischief], you are a committing treason. Treason is punishable by death and abhored by God".

Mohamed is dead and his nation is gone. So, we can't work against the messenger - a logical impossibility. Plus I'm not a member of his nation. The specific nation that this is talking about is the one led by Mohamed but it can be applied to any nation. After all, the stories in the Bible aren't about America and France, etc. Religion has to be relevant to all time, not just to a single point in history to be relevant at all. It teaches that passifism is immoral. If someone breaks into your house and threatens to kill your kid, it is immoral for you to sit passively and let them do it.

Here's how this ayah translates for me now: I am American. My nation has been attacked. It is immoral for my nation's government and for me to passively allow them to kill our children. It is also immoral for me to work to subvert the interests of my nation. Thus, I (well, "we" - my family) support all of the President's good work to that end, including the patriot act and wiretapping, etc. We think CAIR should STFU.

Right about here I'm usually called an apostate Muslim by someone on the board. If that's apostacy to you then I'm apostate. However, I think I am doing what God wants me to do which makes me a Muslim - "one who submits to the will of God". Obviously, Bin Laden and I don't really see eye-to-eye on this one. If it pleases you, you are free to call this not "Islam" but "citycatism".

Once again, I do not and cannot speak on behalf of all Muslims. But remember, in your response, that you asked how I READ THAT ayah - not how, for example, Al-Qaradawi might read that ayah. I tirelessly state that I am not NOT in the majority.

I have enjoyed the conversation. Thank you to all who have asked for people not to go on a "witch hunt" against me. I'm not trying to say that Islam - in its current state - is the RoP. I'm not saying you shouln't feel threatened. You have good reason.

At this point I'm late for lunch with a dear, sweat friend who considers herself pagan. I am very much looking forward to this lunch, as I have not seen her in months. So, I gotta run.

Good-bye and good day.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 12:29 PM

is it possible for a muslim to ever truly condemn their religion?

Posted by: vernon73 at September 20, 2006 12:45 PM

citycat - I don't want to punish you for saying that you're muslim - I want to understand why you would? You deny jihad among other things yet you defend the belief system. You don't really answer my question about this statement:

I do believe:

If it contradicts itself [it is illogical], it is not from God.

Instead you dismiss it as trivia lost in translation. I'm trying to understand your approach, not condemn you for calling yourself 'muslim'. You don't make sense to me and I'm trying to understand.

Why do you insist on calling yourself a muslim when you don't submit to the will of Allah? That's what I'm trying to get at...

If you reject jihad, the idea of the ummah ruling over manmade nations, the idea that Islamic law should take a backseat and that nations like the United States should attack muslim nations, why do you call yourself a muslim? If it's a matter of your personal submission to the higher entity, why not just call it citycatism and be done with it? If I had to guess you married a muslim man and are trying to minimize and reduce Islam but at the same time are trying to please your husband by saying you are muslim.

I may be wrong, but it seems you have reasons to keep one foot in the Dar al-Islam and you refuse to take the other out of Dar al-Harb. If that's the case, please keep one foot firmly grounded in Dar al-Harb. I wish you the best with your situation and decisions, but I do think you're looking at it all from a untenable amalgam of positions and beliefs.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 20, 2006 12:55 PM

plague

i faced these questions many years ago and i made a personal choice to reject islam and all its beliefs
i feel happier for this and at peace with myself. its simple really u have to lose the paranoia that sets in to people. the belief that u indeed will be punished as the koran says for your apostacy and that you will remain in hell.
once you overcome this (albeit scary) thought you will realise how blind you were and all that "moderate muslims " end up as are apologists for murder, racism, homophobia, human rights abuses, religious intolerance, misoginy, honor killings, caste divisions(yeh it happens in islam too!),forced marriages, tax dodging(islam rejects income tax), etc

Posted by: vernon73 at September 20, 2006 1:08 PM

vernon73 - so it's the fear of being murdered in this life and the fear that 'maybe' allah will fuel hellfire with you in the next life that keeps people bound to it?

The fear of eternal consequences ? Makes sense in a way. The nagging thought in the back of the mind repeating, 'What if I'm wrong? What if I will be burned eternally?'

That is the kernel we must crush, the seed of doubt which keeps people from breaking away. That, along with fighting to secure people physically so that they can renounce it without fear of reprisal. Those two things will be hard to eliminate.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 20, 2006 1:32 PM

Oh Yaw Now we are talking like true American's, we broke from Britain because we were being told how to talk, how to walk, and how too wipe our ass's.

But apparently we didn't get around to teaching you how to spell.

WSW

(another one welcoming citycat)

Posted by: Wild Slutty Womens at September 20, 2006 1:38 PM

Wild slutty Womens,

I LOVE YOUR SCREEN NAME! That's just tooooo funny.

Plague,

I understand your dilemma. I do and we are really talking about complicated topics of faith. On a message board, no less. This is difficult enough face-to-face.

This might be easier to understand: I believe that the Ummah that God created is the HUMAN ummah. Were we not all created by the same loving hand of God? I believe we are. If a part (whether nation or group) of that human Ummah attacks another part of the Ummah, then am I not obligated to protect the attacked part of the ummah? I believe I am. I believe that IS the will of God (I speak English, so I don't say "Allah") and I AM submitting to it. Saddam, Al-Qaeda, Hitler, etc. fall into that category. In fact, if you look at modern history, the US has been the greatest liberator of humanity in the modern world. Thus, my husband says "Given this, America is already the most Islamic (following God's will) country on earth.".

Vernon clearly has been taught different things and is at peace with his decision to leave those beliefs. I have been taught differently and I happen to like my beliefs very much. In questions of faith one must first be honest and at peace with oneself.

"If I had to guess you married a muslim man and are trying to minimize and reduce Islam but at the same time are trying to please your husband by saying you are muslim."

You don't have to guess. I've told you that this is not true and I have no reason to lie to you about my husband. He believes exactly as I do.

Plague, your understanding of Islam is fractional. It is the understanding of the Wahhabis. I can't blame you for that. I can't say that "the problem is that you don't understand Islam". The Muslims you see are not like me - and they are real and ar a threat. So, how can I logically say that what is in abundant physical evidence is real? I am not CAIR. I do not deny the painfully obvious.

I don't know what question you're referring to that I didn't answer to your satisfaction. I've really tried to answer as honestly and completely as I can.

May I suggest you check out the beliefs of the Druze, sufi, allowite, and Ismailis? They are all Muslims but differ widely in their beliefs and interpretations. This is the best I can offer on a message board. Also, log onto Freemuslims.org. and check out the blog and the discussion on the comment board. I am one person and only speak for myslef. And if, in the end, you want to call this "Citycatism", then that's okay with me.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 4:24 PM

Plague -

"That is the kernel we must crush, the seed of doubt which keeps people from breaking away."

There should never be compulsion in religion. Apostacy is a god given right. It is an inalienable right.

"That, along with fighting to secure people physically so that they can renounce it without fear of reprisal. Those two things will be hard to eliminate."

Unfortunately, the Muslims whom I've met - who largely do not agree with my beliefs, as I've said - do not WANT to renounce. If they do, they usually move out of Islamic countries or move to ones with predominantly Muslim populations but Secular laws. I don't know that kidnapping people, however well-intentioned, is going to go over very well.

I think the best hope is for people like Vernon and me to keep pushing back on the utter inhumanity of some of the religion's practices (as practiced by most sunni Mulsims - not as I personally think it should be practiced) and deeply held held dogma. Vernon, even though he renounced, will always have more credibility with them than someone who was never a Muslim. I consider this activity part of my own spiritual struggle. This has to work in combination with all that the US government is doing in fighting the terrorism.

It is unlikely that we will ever completely irradicate the worldwide domination (fascist)ideology, despite worldwide efforts. And by "worldwide", I mean the US and Britain. France, as usual, is beating a quick retreat and fighting by surrender. Nazism is still around, after all. But we can relegate it to the trash heaps of history. Declawed, defanged, it can fruitlessly wallow in its pathetic state with the Nazis of the KKK on the outskirts the lunatic fringe. THAT I think is highly achievable.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 4:45 PM

hey Citycat:

nice to see other muslims here on Jihadwatch!
if you'd like to converse with like-minded members of the Islamic community, please check out the following sites:

www.muslimwakeup.com
www.altmuslim.com
www.freemuslims.org

peace,
Jehana

Posted by: jehana at September 20, 2006 4:50 PM

Hi, Jehana!

I knew about freemuslims. Thanks so much for the other sites. I didn't know about them and I will definitely check them out.!

Best,
Citycat

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 4:56 PM

Citycat,

Thank you for your sincerity and for bearing with such good grace those jihadwatchers who are impatient with you.

I have a question for you.

Have you ever deeply considered the following?:

As we face the onslaught of resurgent Islam (the "Jihad revival") advancing over a non-muslim society (like in Western Europe in the coming decades, or many places in history), you and I will face very different choices.

Moderate “muslims” like your well-meaning self will have a deniability when the sword of Islam threatens, after all, you have always been a muslim. We non-muslims (“Infidels”, they call us) on the other hand are required to give up our entire world, our beliefs, our true way of life, or else undergo great oppression.

Yes, you may miss the freedoms of secular society, but the shift you must undergo to live in a more strict muslim society is still not nearly so life-ending as ours. You’ll manage, in a pinch.

So do you see why your attitude of “well, *I’m* a moderate muslim who rejects jihad” doesn’t offer enough solution to the problem that brings us here, why it doesn’t elicit sighs of relief and smiles from us “infidels.”

What would you do if you lived in a society where the wahabists (who *do* set the tone for the ummah) are successfully taking over a half-infidel land (think Sweden in 25 years)? You wouldn’t just slide into the safe role of the born muslim? (Maybe after just a little initial resistance, of course, but how about once it becomes clear that resistance will jeopardize your loved ones!).

It was with a consciousness of this that I asked you above:
“So, how are you going to stop their Jihad against us? You can’t, you say? What do you recommend?”

It is a tough tough dilemma, isn’t it?

I sure do appreciate your support for our society’s defense against jihad, as you plainly expressed. Understand, though, that this is *very* rare to hear from any muslim, even though mere human decency supports it unequivocally. I guess the question then is how are 1.2 billion muslims going to stop the jihad? They, after all, are not threatened by it, are they? And to oppose it is *very* difficult, even if there was a critical mass of resistance (and this is unlikely to ever exist). And be honest, Citycat, you are not threatened by it as we are, either. Hence our impatience at any Muslim’s excusing it as “not so bad” or not so prevalent or not so threatening, etc, when they don't have to pay the price.

Since the “Druze, sufi, allowite, and Ismailis” aren’t trying to take over the world, they don’t matter. This is not a question about religions, but about a resurgent political mass-movement. Since in Islamism, the threat of violence is never far off, these various sects’ members will quickly “get in line.” What are they going to do, resist them to the death? I think not.

I care very much about this, and I know that you are a very sincere and decent person. This discussion is helping me to identify the critical dynamics underlying such an interaction as ours. That is, that although both moderate muslims and ‘infidels’ may oppose jihad and sharia, what we each stand to lose is VERY different in scale and depth. One party could tolerate the worst if it happened (as it has across history), the other, never.

Westward Ho

Posted by: WestwardHo at September 20, 2006 6:27 PM

Fedup

Altmuslim was the site that had Akbar Ahmad do a pre-buttal of Robert's C-Span appearance, a week before he appeared. So much for moderate Muslims being on our side.

I'm with you - I don't pretend that we Infidels have common cause with Moderate Muslims. Apostates, yes, moderates, no. Jehana has in the past expressed sentiments on DW (I don't have the time to scour that up right now) that if Islam manages to conquer, say, Jewish civilization, it would be just another of the many conquests that have gone on throughout history.

I too noticed some of my latter rebuttals to citicat deleted - it may have been a part of the server migration last night, or it may have been a conscious decision on the part of the moderatorette. Either way, I don't have the inclination to rehash what I said, but suffice it to say - anyone who practices Islam should do it in dar ul Islam. If the way they choose to do it is at variance with the leadership there, it's something they need to work out - we Infidels don't owe it to them to provide them refuge - be it here, Israel, India, Thailand, or anywhere else.

As an Italian, you should start a campaign to practice reverse-Shariah on all Muslims in Italy - do to them exactly what Saudi Arabia does to Christians.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 20, 2006 6:35 PM

Westward Ho,

"And be honest, Citycat, you are not threatened by it as we are, either."

You are wrong I grew up here, in America. My way of life, my freedom and my beliefs are very much threatened.

"What would you do if you lived in a society where the wahabists (who *do* set the tone for the ummah) are successfully taking over a half-infidel land (think Sweden in 25 years)? You wouldn’t just slide into the safe role of the born muslim?"

No. I would rather die and I would rather send my children to the US Army to fight and die. As a child, I lived under a totalitarian regime. Never again. I would rather die fighting it tooth and nail.

I think most of the people supporting Islamism in the Middle East don't know what it's actually like to LIVE in such a totalitarian regime. Ask the Iranians how much they love their theocracy now! Once they've twisted under its autocratic terror for a while, they'll learn what it means to actually live in a fascist state. I say, let them twist. The sooner they taste what they want, the faster they'll turn against it. Why waste time and money supporting their dictators when we would be better off arming Israel (the only completely functioning democracy in the ME to date)?

I only mentioned that I'm Muslim to be honest with the rest of you. Honesty is important to me.

But I am ONE person and we are ONE family. I don't know how many others there are like us. We don't hang out with the rest of the "Ummah".

There's only one thing I know for sure: We are in no way representative of Mainstream Islam. I think that you will find that in all of my posts.

Posted by: citycat at September 20, 2006 8:50 PM

Citycat,

Thanks for your kind words. Sorry I took so long to get back to you. Yes Pravoslavni is Russian for Orthodox. However, I purposely spelled it Provoslavni as in a "Provisional Orthodox". I'm Byzantine Catholic (Melkite) and work for the eventual reunion of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Thus my theology, liturgy, spirituality etc. are Orthodox but I believe the schism has been destructive to Christianity.

I'm not Russian but have many connections with Russia and your observations of Russian Orthodoxy are what led me to embrace this heritage (that and my visceral rejection of Communism and all other totalitarian ideologies). My own ethnic background is American-Indian (Coushatta) on my father's side and Sephardic Jewish and Creole on my mother's side.

Posted by: Provoslavni at September 20, 2006 9:53 PM

Hello again Citycat,

I've got it! You’re a family of unicorns!

I’m glad you’re part of the American mosaic!

But, I am wondering, why would your account be at www.freemuslims.org rather than www.faithfreedom.org ?

From the freemuslims.org homepage:

We believe in the re-interpretation of Islam for the 21st century where terrorism is not justified under any circumstances.
We believe in the separation of religion and state.
We believe that democracy is the best form of government.
We believe in the promotion of secularism in all forms of political activity.
We believe that equality for women is an inalienable right.
We believe that religion is a personal relationship between the individual and his or her God and is not to be forced on anyone.

Islam is the religion of Mohammed of the Koran, the Sira, etc. This isn’t Islam. These are no-no’s according to the reliable Islamic sources, which have a lot to say about the above mentioned subjects. Perhaps a new name is needed for your religious outlook. But I do respect the honest attempt to jettison jihad out of Islam, but I don't know.

I wish you luck with the “re-interpretation,” but you might want to investigate www.faithfreedom.org.

All the best,
Westward Ho

Posted by: WestwardHo at September 20, 2006 11:55 PM

Whoops, my mistake, that URL should be
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org

Posted by: WestwardHo at September 21, 2006 12:04 AM

FedUp

Really enjoyed your post - can see why you're fed up!

"The day I find the same amout of humility in the so called "moderate" muslims, would be a miracle, since those people, no matter the plagues they inflicted to the world they are still snob, arrogant, pretentious and demanding."

I couldn't agree more.

Posted by: mazztr at September 21, 2006 4:27 AM

those clowns who heckled british home secretary john reid make me proud to no longer be associated with islam

Posted by: vernon73 at September 21, 2006 5:55 AM

Westward Ho,

Much obliged for the websites! I will check it out. Why not a break? Well, I think what you see before you might actually constitute a break. A much needed break.

As I've gone through the discussion with you guys here on this website, my family and I were talking about whether or not we are "moderate" Muslims - we had never tried to categorize ourselves before.

Last night we decided we are, in fact, NOT "moderate" Muslims. We are a thing rarer than the unicorn. We are LIBERAL Muslims.

Posted by: citycat at September 21, 2006 8:27 AM

Provoslavni,

WOW! What a heritage! That's one of the many beautiful things about America - the mix. The Christians in my family are Russian orthodox. Some of them are still in Russia. I share your visceral rejection of Communism and add to that my rejection of socialism (the economic system of Communist political ideology).

As you know, traditional Russian Orthodox Churches do not allow musical instruments - only the human voice. IMO, There are few pieces of music in this world that can compete with the beauty of the Russian Orthodox choir.

Glad to have "met" you on this board.

All the best,
Citycat

Posted by: citycat at September 21, 2006 8:37 AM

City cat,

How about 'Cultural Muslim'?. It's something that I heard Ayaan Hirsi Ali calling herself in a radio interview. She's been brought up in a muslim culture but doesn't believe in Islam.

I don't know if 'Liberal Muslim' is a contradiction ;)

Posted by: mazztr at September 21, 2006 11:31 AM

Nah, we're not all that culturally Islamic - we talked about that too. I know exactly what she means. We're definitely more "liberal" by comparison to the "moderates" but culturally, we're very American. What's the point of moving to America if you're going to just live in a closed off "mini-ummah"? I never got that. My parents were adament that we didn't grow up that way.

"I don't know if 'Liberal Muslim' is a contradiction ;)"

LOL! It had better not be or we're all screwed!

Posted by: citycat at September 21, 2006 11:41 AM