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In traditional Islamic law, Muslims may only agree to a truce (hudna) for up to a 10-year-period, and only when they are at a disadvantage and need to gather strength to fight again more effectively. Thus the offer of a truce is an acknowledgement of weakness by the forces of jihad, and the most unwise move Israel could possibly make would be to accept the offer.
From AP, with thanks to Sara:
Palestinian PM's aide says Hamas will not join unity government if recognizing Israel is a condition, adds group prepared to agree to 'long term truce' with Jewish state until it withdraws from territoriesThe Palestinians' ruling Hamas group will not join a planned coalition government if recognizing Israel is a condition, a close aide to Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas said Friday. At the United Nations on Thursday, the moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, said the planned national unity government between his Fatah Party and Hamas would recognize the Jewish state.
But Haniyeh's political adviser, Ahmed Yousef, told The Associated Press on Friday that "there won't be a national unity government if Hamas is asked to recognize Israel." The two parties announced last week that they would team up to govern, in an effort to ease crushing international sanctions imposed on the Hamas government to pressure it to soften its violent anti-Israel ideology.
Their preliminary agreement says the new government would strive to establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel - implying recognition of the Jewish state. But coalition talks have faltered because the West and Israel want Hamas to clearly state its willingness to recognize Israel, renounce violence and accept existing peace agreements between Israel and the Palestinians.
5 to 10 year truce
Yousef said instead of recognizing Israel, Hamas was prepared to agree to a "long-term truce for five or 10 years, until the occupation withdraws." He was unclear on what Hamas would do if coalition talks break down.
Posted by Robert at September 22, 2006 10:48 AM
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
They've certainly got the MSM's number. Now, when Israel rejects this stoooopidity on the grounds that Hamas will simply use that time as Hezbollah did - arming and training itself - the MSM can call Israel an unreasonable terrorist state. Which I don't get - aren't the JOOOZ supposed to be controlling the Media?
Posted by: citycat![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at September 22, 2006 10:59 AM
Occupation as a keyword
In order to have the support of the Europeans, liberals and the fools in American Universities, the Palestineans found the Keyword "Occupation".
Now as pornographys is a matter of geography, "Occupation" has it the same:
1. In Europe and American left (less some Jews who know better) it means return o 67 war
2. In Israel (except for the loony left), it is seen as a keyword for distruction of Israel
3. In the Arab world it is the destruction of the Zionist Entity because they do not say Israel and implicitly do not recognize her.
If people saw Anderson Cooper interview with Ahminajad, you did not hear once little Hitler call Israel by name.
Posted by: Richard the Lionheart at September 22, 2006 11:02 AM
Hudna time again,eh? Hopefully Israel won't fall for that old ruse again, media critics be damned.
Of course we will now hear how moderate Hamas has become by making such a generous offer.
I wonder how many will die in Israel if this truce is accepted?
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at September 22, 2006 11:02 AM
Thus the offer of a truce is an acknowledgement of weakness by the forces of jihad, and the most unwise move Israel could possibly make would be to accept the offer.
They may have to accept the offer! Here comes Hamas' representative now -- Condi Rice!
at September 22, 2006 11:04 AM
Unfortunately, Hamas knows what the rest of the world does yet admit to: a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine problem is no answer and ain't gonna happen.
The arabs know that time is on their side. The 20% Arab-Muslim population of Israel will double in 25-40 years and within 50-60 years will become 50% of the population of Israel, INSIDE THE GREEN LINE. Check Israeli demographic studies if you doubt this.
Israel as a "Jewish democracy" has a shelf life of no more than 50 years. That might seem like a lot of time to Americans, but for the Arabs, 50 years is the blink of an eye.
Why would any Palestinian leader recognize something that is very transient, like the Jewish State, only to be reviled by future generations. The idea of a hudna thus makes sense.
There's an answer, but it's too far ahead of its time to gain any traction now: Israel-Palestine-USA. One flag, one state, united with the United States. A United State of Peace.
www.israel-palestine-usa.org. and israel-palestine-usa.blogspot.com
at September 22, 2006 11:06 AM
If I were President, the B-52's would be on their way to decimate Lebanon about now.
Posted by: kisassdemos at September 22, 2006 11:19 AM
Hamas is starting to feel their stomachs growl in hunger, and instead of going to work, or figuring out how to earn money, they prefer to arrange for the European welfare cheques to return and keep coming.
Let the bastards starve for their ideology, men, women, children.
Posted by: dgene at September 22, 2006 11:20 AM
Good luck with that, Ynkedoodl2. When I go to the farmers market in Union Square in NYC on Saturdays, I'm usually confronted by a large posse of NON-muslim idiots protesting the "terrorist state" of Israel.
Posted by: citycat at September 22, 2006 11:21 AM
The arabs know that time is on their side. The 20% Arab-Muslim population of Israel will double in 25-40 years and within 50-60 years will become 50% of the population of Israel, INSIDE THE GREEN LINE. Check Israeli demographic studies if you doubt this.
Meir Kahane was indeed prophetic. No wonder the Islamaniacs killed him.
Now that I think of it, I don't recall a great deal of rage and rioting by Israel upon his death.
Guess those Israelis aren't as peaceful as their neighbors since Islam shows us that only peaceful people burn and kill and destroy.
at September 22, 2006 11:24 AM
If,in some 50 years Israel does disappear due to the increase of the Muslim population this means the world will finally have peace, right? The Islamaniacs and their Western allies expect us to
believe that Israel's existence is basically the only cause for their philosophy of jihad. If Israel goes down then it will be something else-Hamas and their ilk will want more and more until they dominate the world. Then maybe the Martians can behold the peace Islam brought to this planet,like Iraq shows us every day.
at September 22, 2006 11:35 AM
HISTORY SHOWS every truce with Muslims has been short lived (some as short as 1 day).
Israel should say, "no deal"
Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 22, 2006 11:43 AM
I hope Israel says no way and finishes the job.
Posted by: freewoman at September 22, 2006 11:43 AM
Do we ever learn? The enemy isn't that shrewd. They're rather obvious once you read the play book.
For the sake of everything good in this world, why can't we 'get it'?
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 22, 2006 11:48 AM
Re: "In traditional Islamic law, Muslims may only agree to a truce (hudna) for up to a 10-year-period, and only when they are at a disadvantage and need to gather strength to fight again more effectively."
I used to be one of those folks who thought Israel and the "Palestinians" could come to some understanding and the Arab world and Israel could work together and all would benefit from the excellent scientific and technological know-how of Israel. Israel is a country that built a great city (Tel Aviv) on sand dunes and irrigated desert to grow oranges-and much more than those things. However, Islam makes a peace based on a political understanding impossible and constant war is inevitable for Israel. Because of Islam the entire region will face a nuclear catastrophe in the future. Israel will survive.
But I still have some fantasies on the matter: I would like to see the Palestinians evicted from the West Bank and Gaza and the Africans in Darfur invited by Israel to come and live in peace next-door to Israel. That would solve the Jihad problem for a short while and it would insure that Israel and the Africans would have close-by Allies when they faced the next Arab-Muslim attack. However, a permanent peace in the Mideast would mean that only Israel and the black Africans would be there.
Posted by: Frank at September 22, 2006 12:00 PM
This just shows how much hatred and malice these people have against the Israelis and other people. I mean they just do not want to live in peace as long as they are alive...I mean if there is peace what would they do? They will out of a job to kill and train suicide bombers. I don't think we will get peace until Hamas leaders are either captured, detained or killed!! They just do not want peace.
Posted by: vonbueren at September 22, 2006 12:46 PM
vonbueren-
"I mean if there is peace what would they do? They will out of a job to kill and train suicide bombers."
If they did not have unbelievers to kill, Muslims would find a market for their services with those not practicing "true Islam". Islam provides job security.
Posted by: Frank at September 22, 2006 1:03 PM
oh geez if l hear again about how muslims populate an area, well they seem to go off faster in suicide bomb belts faster than you can say allah babba. dont fear Israel will not disappear first, it will be the hezboes and hommos hammas first.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 22, 2006 1:11 PM
A long time ago I told an Arab from the Mideast my thoughts re Israel and the great potential for the region if Israel could become a vital, well integrated part of the Mideast. He just looked at me and said "typical American". Now I know he was calling me stupid.
Posted by: Frank at September 22, 2006 1:12 PM
Frank,
To tell you the truth (about your conversation with the arab), the rest of the arab world don't give a damn about palestineans or the poor people there.... They know that they have to support hamas to keep the region destabilzed because if Israel becomes well integrated with the Middle East what would happen to them...
at September 22, 2006 1:17 PM
Israel should do a treaty with al Hudaibiya as the template, and break it whenever they feel like it. Yeah, the Mohammedans and the UN Dhimmis will cry foul, but what else would be new? They should then re-conquer and annex Judea and Samaria, kill all the Hamas members in combat, and deport all Palestinians to the Jihab, or airlift them to just south of the Jordan-Saudi border.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 22, 2006 1:28 PM
maybe Israel should just not recognize hammas, and just run them out of town.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 22, 2006 1:35 PM
Well so does the PLO and the seemingly endless alphabet soup of palistnian groups.The bottom line of the conflict remains friegtinly the same.Regardless of Abbas or any other so called moderates.There radicals in bussiness suits.Desagnated by the global peace pushers as men of peace.But in reality its deception.The same old eqution is in effect.No Isreal.By hook or by crook,all and any efforts are directed towed the final soulotion.The sillyness of a palistnian state is mearly a smoke screen.I know this has been said for so many years.But its the fact.The sooner the basics are recongnized the sooner all can come to terms.And the oppasite is true as well.Thus far the hopes of peace plans offer only loming warfare.Its nearly a natraul law.
Posted by: Rench at September 22, 2006 1:44 PM
How can you make a treaty when you don't acknowledge the other side to be a legitimate entity? If they don't consider Israel legitimate than they can decide any peace treaties with it are illegitimate.
Posted by: JadeDragoness at September 22, 2006 2:33 PM
Most people would do well to remember rule #37- There is no overkill there is only "Open Fire" and "Time to reload"
Posted by: kiljoi at September 22, 2006 2:38 PM
Also the people supporting extremeist should know rule #29- The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy no more, no less
Posted by: kiljoi at September 22, 2006 2:43 PM
If Hamas can not accept the two state solution, say the Israel has the right to be, then things should remain as they are now for a period of five years, to be taken up again at that time.
Perhaps then something could be worked out.
Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at September 22, 2006 3:04 PM
Richard you nailed it, the misuse (propagandistic) use of words.
I watch Arab and Iranian news daily (English translations) and the word occupation is used to describe Israel (especially by HAMAS) and the IDF (occupation forces).. and no one, not even Israel demands or tries to clarify what is meant..
We of course know that by occupation or occupied territories, the muslims (not just HAMAS) mean the state of Israel..
And that they consider Israel to be illegitimately occupied Muslim territory.
And to this, not even the Israeli Ambassador to the U.N. or the Israeli Foreign Office, nor it's spokesmen to the world press say a word of clarification.
And Ynkdoodle I agree with you, muslim fecundity will (in less than 50 years) eliminate the Israeli state, and what was Israel will become again Palestine, only this time through the Knesset, which will be renamed Majlis (Farsi) or a Sunni equivalent.
If I were an Israeli Jew, I would be migrating to America, where I knew I was welcome..in fact if all of Israel's Jewish population migrated to America, the muslim lands would not only be sore disadvantaged, but would suffer extreme unintended consequences.. They couldn't use the Jews as an excuse anymore, and the U.S. population of Jews would double, with dire economic and political consequences for the Arabs and U.S. muslim community..which equals or outnumbers the U.S. Jewish community, and indication of their fecundity rate given that Jews have been here from the beginning of this country, and the mass Ashkenazim migration was in the late 19th Century, whereas Muslim migration did not really start until about 30 years ago, the time, incidentally, coincident with the Islamic revolution in Iran.
In two generations muslim/s mainly through reproduction, have increased in numbers that equal or exceed that of peoples who have been here for hundreds of years, imagine what two more generations will bring.. exponential growth.
Look at Canaan, in 1948 there were about 800,000 muslims in the whole territory, and despite the fact that the majority of them chose to migrate to Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt in the days previous to the 1948 invasion by those Arab states, they now number some 7 or 8 million in both Israel and "Palestine", which is an awesome and scarey rate of reproduction. Given that there are now over 8 million muslims in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia who consider themselves "Palestinian" refugees, though the vast majority have never ever even seen Palestine much less an olive tree.
So from 800,000 in 1948, there are now about 13 or 14 million "Arabs", in less than three generations the population of Arabs has increased 17.5 fold, extrapolate that rate of reproduction to Europe and the U.S. Extrapolate that to Israel, where at least 2 million of the population are muslim.
If 4 million muslims today, with continued immigration and reproduction in less than three generations they will account for 72 millions of the population (or more), and of course Europeans will have been displaced by muslims.. Russia also.
at September 22, 2006 3:17 PM
Israel's government should insist that any "Palestinian" entity, as a very first step, expressly reject, and the entire Arab League expressly reject, the Treaty of Al-Hudaibiyya as the model for all treaties or agreements between Muslims and Infidels.
It will be a difficult thing for them to do. But if they cannot do that, if they cannot say explicitly that they do not believe that treaties with Infidels are to be broken by Muslims whenever they are strong enough to do so, then what is the point? Why should any Infidel state ever rely on treaties, and give up tangible things, such as possession of land, possession of water resources, control of heights and of invasion routes, in order to get what the belief-system of Islam teaches is, for Muslims, merely an exercise in buying time, until such time as an assault on the Infidels may be renewed.
Make it explicit.
Talk about it.
Don't engage in insabbiation, like some Italian poitician, hiding a scandal.
Publish it urbi et orbi, so that everyone knows. Even Bush. Even Rice. Even Martin Indyk. Even Dennis Ross. Even Tom Friedman. Down even to that level. Yes: the Treaty of Al-Hudaibiyya. Muhammad and the Meccans (not a rock group). 628 A.D.
Put that in your peace-pipes, and smoke it.
Posted by: Hugh at September 22, 2006 3:29 PM
the palestinians will not put their signature on any long-range treaty with Israel because they know it won't be around in 50 years. There will be a Jewish entity (hopefully Israel-Palestine-USA.org with the flag I designed)but who knows. The Jewish democracy of Israel is facing demographic disaster in another twenty-five years but its people see no solution. They live day to day. What else can they do?
Meanwhile, as the Arabs see it, what's another 50 years of abject poverty, hunger, corruption, misery and the pleasue of blaming it all on the Jews? It just proves the Koranic anti-semitic animus and makes suicide recruitment that much easier. It's not for nothing that many a middle-east observer has observed that until this problem is resolved, the whole world will be destabilized by Islamic extremism.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 22, 2006 3:57 PM
I wish out jewish and christian friends victory.
Hezbollah, hamas these are all pawns in the hands of
punjabi-iran-arab axis of evil. They must be crushed.
Your excellency Mr. Robert Spencer, I thank you for spreading the truth about iran terror and
punjabi-arab-iran axis of evil with bottom of my heart.
Please spread this awareness to your President Mr. Bush. Let them forge an alliance with noble people to liberate balochis and kashmiris from Punjabi tyranny.
Posted by: mystichealer at September 22, 2006 4:02 PM
Hugh,
I think I was the first to call this "treaty" that Hamas is trying to push for the bullshit that it is.
However, you've gone just a touch to far in saying that peace is not possible with any of Israel's neighbors.
The peace treaties signed with both Jordan and Egypt have worked out fine.
Hamas is a different story but I HOPE that it will eventually change (although I don't actually know if that's possible for them). Roughly 75% of the Palestinians voted for Hamas but roughly the same amount - 75% - polled wanted peace with Israel. Bloody Jihad is all well and good in theory, it seems, but the reality of constantly dying is rather more taxing. Hamas is going to have to work that out. I hope it does. I would sure hate to see Ynkdoodl's scenario to come to fruition.
Posted by: citycat at September 22, 2006 4:13 PM
Amazing. All the MSM reported that a "unity government" had recognized Israel. They lie to us so much, and misrepresent (through ommission) so much that we have to do tons of research just to know what the truth is. Disgusting. Even Fox reported it like that.
Posted by: DesertDawgN29 at September 22, 2006 4:19 PM
I noticed that, Desert. I was so pissed off this morning when I read the actual deal proposed after hearing that on TV last night.
Posted by: citycat at September 22, 2006 4:32 PM
expressly reject, and the entire Arab League expressly reject, the Treaty of Al-Hudaibiyya as the model for all treaties or agreements between Muslims and Infidels.
history shows that treaties only work when the winning side is strong to keep the losers from fighging back. peace through victory is the only way to go. when you totally destroy islam can you achieve any peace. destroying islam can be achieved in a number of ways, the fastest way is like what happened to the Germans and Japanese. the longest way seems to be in play right now.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 22, 2006 4:35 PM
No deal. But with Olmert... who knows? :(
Posted by: Monkeywho at September 22, 2006 4:36 PM
citycat,
"I would sure hate to see Ynkdoodl's scenario to come to fruition."
ynkedoodl's scenario is going to come to fruition. (And not because it's what I want. Personally I'd like to see a Jewish state on both sides of the Jordan.) But read the writing on the wall: The Jewish population of Israel (sans the West Bank and Gaza)will not be in the majority forever. Not even in 50 years. The best Israeli demographic studies leave no doubt it. Meanwhile the Arabs can wait. Hell, what's 50 years of hunger, poverty, unemployment, chaos, disease...it's all the Jews fault anyway.
Getting to Israel-Palestine-USA.org is gonna be a long hard road. But it will happen.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 22, 2006 6:07 PM
The obstinate ignorance and stupidity of western leaders allows these Pali-swine to get away with murder, just about every time.
STOP THE JIZIYAH!!!!
What does it take to learn what a 'hudna' is? Is it rocket-science to learn that all land once conquered by Islam must NEVER fall to the hated infidels again and especially not to the -even more- hated Jooozzzz, that "Islam MUST conquer"- for it is nothing but a conquest strategy to establish Arab-Imperialism, by driving Infidels and Jews out of their homes, to make 'slaughter in the land' and to enslave them, make them 'Dhimmis' and to enjoy booty, the spoils of war, which Allah made 'lawful'...
Thats all, folks. What else do you really need to know about Islam?Quite primitive. But the Mohammedan nightmare IS just that: Very primitive, very insane, idiotic but bloody and ruthless, brutal and reckless , and it disregards all human values.
We have to pay them back in kind in order to get their respect and attention....
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 22, 2006 7:31 PM
Here it is:
Their own Koran says:
Koran 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”
Koran 59:2 “It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning…they shall taste the torment of Fire.”
Explain to me how the Israelis are occupiers????
at September 22, 2006 7:50 PM
This is just a way for the "Palestinians" to get their aid back--I'm actually surprised that the stoppage of aid has lasted as long as it has.
Many in the West, though, are eager to reinstate it--working with a "coalition" government that includes the "moderate" Abbas is probably good enough for most donor nations, even though Abbas is no moderate, and Hamas will not even pay lip service to Israel's right to exist.
I hope I am wrong, but I doubt I will be.
Posted by: gravenimage at September 22, 2006 11:49 PM
Re the Israel demographics problem: someone (killed by a Moslem) once planted a seed, an idea "They Must Go!"
The seed tries to sprout but is never watered and allowed to grow, If the people of Israel were to morph (before the 10 years of hudna and the 50 years of Arab patience are up) dragging their government with them, the withered sprout might be watered and allowed to grow.
if it becomes a tree, it will certainly NOT shout "There's a Jew hiding behind me!"
Because the seed idea was planted by many-of-us-know-who. It is a good seed, a better sprout, and would make a wonderful tree.
Posted by: unicorns62000 at September 23, 2006 2:01 AM
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