crisis n.
an unstable situation of extreme danger or difficulty

Of the many available uses of the clanging word "crisis" in this article, this seems to be the only appropriate rendering. Given its use is only by a Muslim (other than the journalist parroting it) in this article, and the interesting observation that the only "danger" or threat of violence, arose from their own constituents, I believe we can without distortion reword the quote as:

"I pray to almighty God our threat of violence will be behind us".

Well, that is up to them, isn't it?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 25, 2006 11:21 AM

To get to the peace part it would be well to start by expunging parts of the koran and addressing the qualities of that child rapist mohammed.

Posted by: dgene at September 25, 2006 11:32 AM

I will be curious to see reports of what the muslim envoys tell everyone back home.

I do like this part:

'The Pope said Christians and Muslims had to learn from the past and work for a better future.'

Especially muslims, but Especially secular leftists, need to learn from the past. The former, because they ingore the truth of their own past, the latter, because some among them are determined to repeat the crimes and disasters of the past. Eh, nariz?

Posted by: Gary at September 25, 2006 11:33 AM

Assalamau Laikium americaningermany,

How are you? It has been a while since we last "spoke" but I hope you are in good health and good spirits...unlike his hollowness the pope Benedict XV1(I think).

The apologising from the pope is like a habit now.... to a situation that ofcourse he created for himself.

But for me, more important than the situation itself is Benedict's reaction which shows a lack of faith and courage.

Let's compare this an Imam. When a muslim Imam say something in particular regard to their faith...and if they believe it to be true (which they almost always do) then they stand by it...because they have complete faith in their saviour Allah SWT...no questions asked. They leave the fallout in the hands of Allah.

The pope on the other hand perhaps has asked for devine inspiration...not got it...has backtracked to apologies.

I now think that muslims will keep pushing to see what else they can get from the pope.

...let's see...chin up Benedict.

Posted by: Naseem at September 25, 2006 11:36 AM

I just absolutely hate it when the truth insults someone.

I stand by my statement that muslims practice a form of stupidity that keeps them perpetually insulted.

Of course God willing.

Posted by: credit man at September 25, 2006 11:42 AM

What it all comes down to is that the Muslims MUST start to do the all-important cleaning up of their house, called reformation just as Jews and Christians have been doing for years. First thing that must be faced is that the Muslims cannot deny their past just as those of us who are Christians have faced up to the parts of the past in the history of Christianity which was shameful. The pope should be viewed as getting the ball rolling to make it known that violence MUST NOT be used to justify violence.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 25, 2006 11:43 AM

The speech was beyond contempt. The Pope felt just short of committing himself to conversion to Islam.
There are 2 major points came out of the Pope speech:
1. Muslims have his respect;
2. Muslims and Christians have common religious values.
Being the Pope he speaks for all the Catholics. As a result I would like to wave goodbye to all Catholics as from now on it would be difficult to trust any of you in our fight against Islam. I personally have no respect for Muslims.
As for the “common religious values” I do agree with the pope. I was ostracized on this blog more then once for pointing to those values.

I am not happy to tell you that - I told you so, but I told you so.

Posted by: pong at September 25, 2006 11:48 AM

As a Catholic I suddenly feel very alone.

Posted by: Sebastien at September 25, 2006 11:53 AM

For what the Pope actually said rather than Reuters excerpts see Amy's blog with her take:

http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2006/09/the_pope_and_th.html

Reuters left out:

The lessons of the past must therefore help us to seek paths of reconciliation, in order to live with respect for the identity and freedom of each individual, with a view to fruitful co-operation in the service of all humanity. As Pope John Paul II said in his memorable speech to young people at Casablanca in Morocco, "Respect and dialogue require reciprocity in all spheres, especially in that which concerns basic freedoms, more particularly religious freedom. They favour peace and agreement between peoples" (no. 5).

Sounds like a call to recognize the rights of all human beings, including the rights to religious freedom.

Posted by: mojori at September 25, 2006 11:53 AM

I think you have missed the point, Naseem!

The pope did not apologize for something he said. He quoted someone else!

He apoligized for the reactions that his remark evocated from Muslims.

Like I said before, the practice of stupidity will keep you insulted.

Of course God willing.

Posted by: credit man at September 25, 2006 11:54 AM

Naseem,

you don't get it.

1
The pope holds muslim human beings in high esteem. He never said and never will say he respects Islam.

2
His apology is not an apology. He is sorry some dumbos just didn't get ist.
He can't give an apology as this in the non-muslim world is given for a moral misstep, whereas in Islam it is given as a rejection of insurgence against the Koran &co. (and in the non-muslim world, quoting an old question is no misdeed)

Posted by: FreeSpeech at September 25, 2006 11:57 AM

I don't know what all the press outlets are reporting but Pope Benedict certainly hasn't apologized for his Regensburg Address. As a matter of fact, in today's meeting with Muslim officials he spoke of the need for "reciprocity." An obvious reference to the striking lack of Christian churches in Muslim lands compared to mosques in the west.

Posted by: Dave at September 25, 2006 12:01 PM

Mojori has it in the quote above.

respect as human beings and reciprocity

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 25, 2006 12:03 PM

Iraqi ambassador Albert Edward Ismail Yelda said:

I pray to almighty God the crisis will be behind us

Which crisis is he referring to? The crisis of hundreds of Iraqis being killed every day by jihadists? The crisis of loss of human rights wherever shar'ia is the law of the land, as in Iraq? The crisis of a "few radicals" twisting the Religion of Peace (tm) into the violent cesspool we see on the news every night? The crisis of jihadists attacking and destroying the infrastructure (power lines, water treatment, road construction, etc.) in Iraq almost as fast as we infidels can build it for them?

No, he means the "crisis" of the Pope quoting a Byzantium emperor in an obscure theological speech at a college in Germany that denounced violence in religion. That "crisis".

Well, the Iraqi ambassador certainly has his priorities straight.

Posted by: special_guest at September 25, 2006 12:03 PM

Assalamau Laikum credit man,

No I don't think I have missed the point at all.

You can harp on about "semantics" all you want...shout it from the street corners...nobody's listening.

Instead everybody is seeing the pope running scared...don't take my word for it...I'm a muslim..but have you read the posts Sebastien and pong above....they are catholics.

The pope should pray harder.. AND believe in his prayers...he has abandoned the faith in his saviour Jesus and he has let his flock down...to the rest of the world he was never infallable... but EVEN catholics believe it now!

SAD but true....Allah give you peace credit man!

Posted by: Naseem at September 25, 2006 12:03 PM

AmericaninGermany:

The Pope is not "grovelling". He is taking the moral high ground by demonstrating the attitude one would expect in such circumstances of a sincere and committed Christian.

He has NOT backtracked or retracted the "offending" statement, nor apologized for saying it. He is holding out the offer of peace and reconciliation based on the invitation to relations characterized by mutual respect and mutual reciprocal recognition of each party's rights and obligations in the matter. There is nothing cowardly or timid in this.

You should not be expecting him to be preaching the next Crusade at this point. Depending on what the Muslim response is in the days, weeks, months and years to come, that may come as well in time, but he is obliged, having opened this dialogue, or called for it at any rate, to pursue it. This is not only prudent but necesary. Not only for the sake of truth itself, but for the sake of public relations and properly and convincingly making the case against Islamist violence he must, at this point, not only BE a peacemaker, but must be SEEN to be a peacemaker, before even considering authorizing a violent response to Islamic aggression.

Part of this entails making a moral distinction between the religious errors of Islam, and the human persons (individual Muslims) who, despite their error, and whatever sins they commit in its name, are, according to Christian moral doctrine and theological anthropology, created in, and bearing of, the image of God, and must be shown the respect due to human persons as such. Such respect can not easily be set aside in favour of violence against the enemy, or an imprudent rush to martyrdom for the sake of Christian faith, which itself is "problematic" in Christian moral theology.

The time MAY come when a clear necesity to resort to violence in the West's and Christendom's self-defence is necesary, but the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ make it very clear that, at the least, we must be very reluctant to embrace this outcome. None of us has any right to WANT a war or to provoke one in haste!

Be patient. Give Benedict's strategy time. It may take time to bear fruit. "Moderate" Muslims, assuming there are any (though I am convinced that there are at least some), may be unable to clarify their position to date because of the threat of violence within the Umma. Benedict's actions may ease their way and make it possible for Islamic moderation, and even liberalism, to eventually emerge. This may make war unnecesary. Such an outcome is something we should all hope for. If it doesn't, and no reliable Islamic moderation emerges, then his rhetoric can change, and the response of the Christian world can begin to comtemplate the alternative. For now, let's wait and see.

PatriarchMichaelCerularius (aka "Templar" and Jacques_de_Molay")

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 12:05 PM

Perhaps the Moslem envoys who met with the Pope might at least make an effort to encourage their co-religionists to make Ramadan a more introspective time for examining their own consciences and repenting of and doing penance for their own sins (sort of what Lent is to Catholics).

The most controversial thing which His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI did at the University of Regensburg was to hold up a mirror to Islam. If some Moslems took offense at what they saw there, they need to look to themselves and the fundamental tenets of their jihadist ideology for corrective action, not blame the Pope or Christianity or the whole non-Islamic world. Smashing the mirror (and/or the one holding it) will not cure the ugliness reflected in the mirror.

The Holy Father was gracious far beyond the expectations of common courtesy in his expression of regret for the violent and hateful reactions of many Moslems to his obscure historical citation. However, considering those reactions, it was a quintessentially Christian act for him to reach out and try to meet them more than halfway.

The ability and willingness to do so (while holding firm on matters of doctrine) is a sign of strength, not weakness. Note that the Pope expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith, not for the faith itself or for those of its doctrines which are incompatible with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Posted by: urbanIIredux at September 25, 2006 12:09 PM

Thank you, Majori.

One thing EVERYONE HERE ought to remember:

Reuters, like much of the MSM, is a Leftist tool. Quite naturally (to them) anything that doesn't fit the picture they wish to create, is left out. If they could have shown the Pope kneeling in subjection to the muslim envoy, they would have. I'm sure someone is capable of photoshopping it.

I suggest we all find those sites that report Exactly what the Pope said,... and then make our statements accordingly.

Posted by: Gary at September 25, 2006 12:12 PM

Hi Naseem,

Assalamaku Lakamum,

The pope 'backtracked' to prevent others of his flock from being shot/persecuted/murdered by the followers of the "religion of peace". Do correct me if Im wrong, but it appears to me that a muslim imam wouldn't give a damn about what happened as long as he 'believed' it was true. And therefore Osama bin liner and any Imam of peace or any "moderate muslim" would both be 'correct' despite having opposite views.

In that case, how can Allah both sanction and curse an event such as a single suicide bombing? Isnt that a little contradictory?

Or do imams just say whatever they feel is right and leave the consequences to allah?

Posted by: Jerusalem at September 25, 2006 12:13 PM

I'm sure the Pope feels as if he's talking to a brick wall when he speaks to muslims. You know, the lights are on, but nobody's home. It's like talking Quantum Physics to a first grader, the first grader sits there and stares at you not having any clue as to what you're saying.

The muslims don't get it. They never will. They are just running on their own agenda.

Posted by: freewoman at September 25, 2006 12:15 PM

"We would be so much better off if no religions ever existed. What we need to do is ban all organized religions. Then maybe the world could get along."

We tried that... and we got the following:-

Fascism - 50 million dead
Communism (Russian) - 20 million dead
Communism (Chinese) - 20? million dead
Communism (Pol Pot) - 3 million (50% population) dead
Idi Amin - ? million dead / displaced

So men install themselves as rulers and the body-count-ometer spins so fast the digits blur.

It is the Anglo-Saxon protestant traditions and values that has brought unprecedented freedoms to a vast part of the world. Not perfect by a long way, but the best so far.

Posted by: Jerusalem at September 25, 2006 12:19 PM

Keep your guts and stand up Pope Panzer! Europe has doomed itself to Islamic domination.

Posted by: kisassdemos at September 25, 2006 12:22 PM

"There are elements of violence in islam".

Nun murdered.

Apologies.

The muslims couldn't have lost more than they did by allowing and building this delirious sequence.

It will take them some time to understand it.

Posted by: POITIERS-LEPANTO at September 25, 2006 12:23 PM

Jerusalem~ Let's not forget an earlier attempt to remove religion, known as the Terror (French Revolution).

Posted by: Gary at September 25, 2006 12:27 PM

"Christians and Muslims must learn to work together ... in order to guard against all forms of intolerance and to oppose all manifestations of violence," the 79-year-old Pope said at the meeting in a frescoed hall of the papal summer palace."

This statement implies moral equivalency, and implies that "violence" is on both sides. What, does the Pope think that it's 50/50 on both sides or something? More like for every 10,000 acts of Islamic violence the rest of the world finally gets fed-up with it and takes action. That's about a 10,000 to 1 ratio, not 50/50.

The Pope should either 1) keep his mouth shut or 2) not backtrack on what he already said.

P.S Naseem, the Pope's words in essence do not matter all that much. What you face is millions of people who KNOW how wrong, deceptive, violent, manipulative, false, and rigid Islam is, and millions of people who are explaining this to millions more. Time to criticize Islam every chance we get. Naseem, you're really not a very brave person, or you would leave Islam for a year and be willing to find out how wrong it is.

pong said: "As for the common religious values I do agree with the pope. I was ostracized on this blog more then once for pointing to those values."

Well, you're about to be "ostracized" again. Do you have any idea what historically, life is like in countries that have religious police operating? Gee, they have "religious values" - but what you don't understand is whether or not moral obedience comes from within or is policed externally. One is Christianity the other is Islam. Please take time to study the difference.

To Muslims: if you are a Muslim and you love Islam so much, why not leave, and go live in Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia? Oh, that's right you really don't love Islam, you're just playing a psychological mind game - trying to convince others that Islam is a "religion of peace" even though it's a violent disaster in every country where it exists, and while you enjoy the green grass and prosperity here in America. Muslims do not even have the fundamental honesty to admit where the "good life" comes from, and it's not from Islam. You Muslims are the ones who must do something to "stop associating Islam with violence." Islamic reform was suggested in one post. Muslims have a chance stop following Islam, but I am convinced due to the nature of the written texts, Islam itself cannot be reformed.

Posted by: Report at September 25, 2006 12:28 PM

Benedict XVI is leading brilliantly. No apologies, no grovelling--where do people come up with these interpretations? He just keeps telling the truth: religious violence is wrong. Listen to what he says, and watch what he does. The pope is giving nothing away.

N.B. Benedict XVI spoke in his own setting. Muslim representatives came to him, not the other way around.

Posted by: Kate at September 25, 2006 12:28 PM

FAX

One Page Follows This One

###############################

Memo: To Christians
Re: Violence

Please be as peaceful as your Moslem brethern.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
The Pope

Posted by: Seymour Paine at September 25, 2006 12:34 PM

Another miss by Reuters:

In a world marked by relativism and too often excluding the transcendence and universality of reason, we are in great need of an authentic dialogue between religions and between cultures, capable of assisting us, in a spirit of fruitful co-operation, to overcome all the tensions together. Continuing, then, the work undertaken by my predecessor, Pope John Paul II, I sincerely pray that the relations of trust which have developed between Christians and Muslims over several years, will not only continue, but will develop further in a spirit of sincere and respectful dialogue, based on ever more authentic reciprocal knowledge which, with joy, recognizes the religious values that we have in common [mojori note: based on the fact that Islam incorporates some Jewish and Christian elements, however imperfectly] and, with loyalty, respects the differences.

My two cents:

The Pope reiterates the call for dialogue based on reason and authentic reciprocal knowledge of our respective religious values. Meaning, if you are reasonable as some in your tradition claim to be than you tell us reasonably (without violence and threats of violence) about what's best in Islam and we'll tell you about the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ and we'll let the hearer judge between the Gospel of Salvation and the alternative you propose.

Dialogue is necessary as the pretext to preach the gospel to a society which as currently constituted is closed to its hearing, and its saving power. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and to meet the one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2:4-5). Sounds like the Pope is trying to facilitate this by fostering conditions under which Islam and Christianity can at least talk to each other and by talking Christianity can preach the gospel.

Posted by: mojori at September 25, 2006 12:35 PM

"Respect and dialogue require reciprocity in all spheres, especially in that which concerns basic freedoms, more particularly religious freedom. They favour peace and agreement between peoples"

From today's speech by Pope Benedict XVI to the Muslim delegates.

This statement, quoted from John Paul II, is a CLEAR call for respect for the rights of non-Muslims in Islamic countries, and there are several others like it in the address.

The entire speech, titled "To the Ambassadors of Countries with a muslim majority and to the representatives of muslim communities in Italy (September 25, 2006)" is already available in the English language section of the Holy See's website, www.vatica.va.

There has been no papal capitulation here. Benedict has stayed the course. The fact that he is not preaching the next Crusade at this point may disappoint some readers of this thread but it should surprize no one. The time for this may come in future but it is not here yet.

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 12:36 PM

americaningermany

Both you and Templar are right, and in her usual perverted way, so is Naseem. The Pope didn't retract his earlier statement, but just regreted the violent reactions to his original statement. He could say that he's sorry about the effects it's had, such as the murder of the Somali nun, but it's meaningless. The only meaningful apologies for things like that could come from the Somali ummah.

But you are right about the message it sends those thugs - that if they bay for infidel blood on their streets, there'll be an apparant contrite reaction. The collective response to all this needs to be "Bite me", but hasn't been. All this political correctness will ironically, in the long run, end up causing the deaths of millions of Muslims - which, as far as I'm concerned, is the one silver lining in all of this.

I also think the above statement that the Pope speaks for all Catholics is a sweeping generalization, and ignores the spectrum of opinion in the Church. Do all, or even most, US Catholics oppose the death penalty in the same way the Pope does? If not, don't assume that if the Pope looks like unwilling to confront the Ummah (and why should he - how many divisions does he have?), worldwide Catholics aren't either.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 25, 2006 12:38 PM

Reposting the conditions for the Pope's "apology" based on his actual speech in Regensburg. To effectually "apologize", the Pope would have to affirm that:

1) God is capricious
2) God's will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality
3) God is not bound even by his own word
4) God is not even bound to truth and goodness
5) God is not obliged to reveal the truth to us
6) God could have done the opposite of everything He has actually done
7) God could have willed us to practice idolatry
8) God is so transcendent and "other" that our reason and conscience do not "mirror" Him; i.e. we are not made in His image.
9) God is personally unknowable
10) God's actions cannot be understood by man (in terms of consequence of immutable qualities)

These are the observations about Islam he made in his speech. He did not retract these.

The simple version for Naseem: he would have to accept YOUR god, i.e. convert to Islam. That has not happened. And don't be hoping for such: you would still be an Ahmadi heretic.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 25, 2006 12:48 PM

To Pong and Sebastien; as well as other posters:

The Pope's 'groveling' or 'affirmation of common religious values' needs to be seen within the light of the Vactican II document "Nostra Aetate" which deals with non-Christian religions.

Here is a direct passage:

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6(, in whom men may find the the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to himself(cf. 2 Cor 5:18).

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religious, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life; they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

Now because these was presented by the Pope Paul VI together with the bishops of the Catholic Church it is considered offical church teaching. Due to this even the current Pope is bound to this teaching.

Now, as a lay person, what does this mean to me?

1. We, as Christians, are called to affirm all that is good and holy in other religions.

That is, the Truth, where the Truth may be found even in the Islamic faith.

In Theological areas:

a. The belief in one God as opposed to many-gods.
b. At least an attested reverence for Jesus, even if they only view him as a prophet and not the Son of God.
c. The reverence with which they view the virgin Mary with.
d. The belief in the day of judgement where render to each man according to his deeds.

In the Moral areas:

a. The practice of almsgiving and fasting.
b. The rejection of living a homosexual life style.
c. The importance of the family. (One of the reasons they have a higher birth-rate than Europe at the moment)

Now, before I comment on this, let me quote a passage from the Bible.

From Acts 17:22-31

The Paul stood up at the Areopagus and said:
"You Athenians, I see that in everyrespect you are very religious. For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even dsicovered an altar inscribed, "To an Unknown God.' What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and allthat is init, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands, nor is he served by human needs because he needs anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything. He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being.' as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.' Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to thing that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination. God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent because he has established a day on which he will 'judge the world with justice' through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead."

Okay, now my commentary on both. :o)

Paul, in Athens, recognizes the common religious ground that he shares with the Athenians. He sees an altar to an unknown God. Paul is even familar with some of their poetry that speaks of certain truths that contain a bit of the Truth. Paul uses these common values and beliefs as starting point for a dialogue. A dialogue in which Paul ends up sharing the good news, the gospel, of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, if you compare this passage in Acts with the statement found in Nostra Aetate, I believe that they are basically promoting the same type of dialogue which should, and needs, to lead to an invitation to the gospel.

What I believe, right now, is the biggest weakness of the Catholic Church and Christians at large, mostly due to 60s progressives and their mentality that has become commonplace in all places of leaderships, is a failure to, once having established the common ground, to move from dialogue to evangelization.

G-d forbid, but perhaps, if Christians really do start being perscuted we will be jolted awake and start sharing the gospel.. even if it means doing so with our lives.

Long post I know, but thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts.

Posted by: Monkeywho at September 25, 2006 12:50 PM

.unlike his hollowness the pope Benedict XV1(I think).

I am sure a "Hollow" Pope has more intellectual content than you will ever have Nasseem.

You should read Kipling - it is the White Man's Burden that we must humour the less evolved of the species:

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain,
To seek another's profit
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine,
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
(The end for others sought)
Watch sloth and heathen folly
Bring all your hope to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No iron rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go, make them with your living
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden,
And reap his old reward--
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness.
By all ye will or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your God and you.

Take up the White Man's burden!
Have done with childish days--
The lightly-proffered laurel,
The easy ungrudged praise:
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.

Posted by: Voyager at September 25, 2006 1:01 PM

Pong:

It's interesting that your on-line name has a rather distinctly Chinese ring to it. If I'm correct about this, since you wish to generalize about Catholics, I will do so in regard to the Chinese. Where has China been in regard to the Islamist threat? In bed with Iran.

The executive director of this site, Robert Spencer, is a Catholic, as am I and a great many other readers of this forum.

I think there may have been a good reason why you were ostracized in the past in these pages. Why don't you contribute something constructive to the discussions instead of offensive and inaccurate accusations?

If my guess (a hazardous one, I grant, and please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken) that you are speaking with an oriental experience in your background, consider the words of Jerusalem above:

"It is the Anglo-Saxon protestant traditions and values that has brought unprecedented freedoms to a vast part of the world. Not perfect by a long way, but the best so far".

I have to agree with this in large measure. And the West, Catholic and Protestant, has gone the furthest so far in standing up to militant Islam. So far, the response of the non-Western world, with the possible exception of India, has been even weaker. So please don't criticize Catholics or other westerners.

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 1:02 PM

Dear Naseem,

Peace to you.

"I'm sorry that some people didn't get it."

"See? You apologized. You must be wrong."

"I'm sorry you see it that way."

"See? You apologized again."

"I'm sorry you don't get it."

Posted by: yaqub at September 25, 2006 1:19 PM

Monkeywho,

Re: "only view him as a prophet"

Actually, that is true and not true, one of the many inconsistencies in the Qur'an (which aid in proving it as errant and unworthy of serious exposition).

The acceptance of the these events and conditions related to Jesus/"Isa"
1) The Virgin-Birth.
2) The Sinlessness of Jesus.
3) The Ascension.
4) The Second Coming.

and the bestowing of these titles
1) The Messiah
2) The Word of God
3) A Spirit from God

makes it very difficult for Muslims to dispose of Jesus as "just a prophet" theologically.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 25, 2006 1:20 PM

I have no idea what a Christian or a jew has to say to a mohammadian .
The muslims must oppress then kill all none muslims they arent using ovens and there is no front..

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 25, 2006 1:23 PM

Assawamau Waikium amewicaningewmany, How awe you? It has been a whiwe since we wast "spoke" but I hope you awe in good heawf and good spiwits. Oh, dat scwewy wabbit! ..unwike his howwowness the pope Benedict XV1(I think). De apowogising fwom the pope is wike a habit now.... to a situation that ofcouwse he cweated fow himsewf. But fow me, mowe impowtant than the situation itsewf is Benedict's weaction which shows a wack of faif and couwage. Wet's compawe this an Imam. When a muswim Imam say something in pawticuwaw wegawd to theiw faith...and if they bewieve it to be twue (which they awmost awways do) then they stand by it...because they have compwete faif in theiw saviouw Awwah SWT...no qwestions asked. Dey weave the fawwout in the hands of Awwah. De pope on the othew hand pewhaps has asked fow devine inspiwation, uh-hah-hah-hah. ..not got it...has backtwacked to apowogies. Oh, dat scwewy wabbit! I now think that muswims wiww keep pushing to see what ewse they can get fwom the pope. ...wet's see...chin up Benedict.

Naseem

Posted by: Art Cove at September 25, 2006 1:26 PM

Report.
I did not expect any comments to my humble contribution today. To my surprise there is one! And, as usual I am sent “to study”, this time “were the moral obedience comes from in Christianity and Islam”.
It is a question of ethics and rationality. There are only a few books I found which specifically deal with this topic:
“The psychology of self-esteem”, by Brandon;
“Moral Values”, by Everett;
“Atheism”, by Smith;
“Tanya”, by Zalman;
“The philosophy of Humanism”, by Lamont.
Bits and pieces on the subject can be found in the works of Rand, Paley, Taylor, Plato, Blackstone and others.
If I missed any significant work on that particular topic, please, let me know me, because studying I do.

Posted by: pong at September 25, 2006 1:27 PM

Infidel Pride:

Your comment to AmericaninGermany, "But you are right about the message it sends those thugs - that if they bay for infidel blood on their streets, there'll be an apparant contrite reaction" is true, but I'd suggest bearing in mind that Benedict's speech is directed to an elite who are capable of a more refined behaviour, or at least of simulating it, not to the illiterate, unwashed mob in the streets.

The "bite me" response is one that this Pope, as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was willing to give to a number of "progressive" theologians (with devastating results for them, I might add), and it is one that I don't think he will shrink from if his attempts at dialogue don't achieve their desired effects within a reasonable time, and I even think it possible that he is waiting for the images of the latest Islamic violence, and any subsequent episodes, to ferment in the minds of Western policy makers and work a transformation on them.

For the moment, he is trying to preserve the inroads of his immediate predecessor into the Islamic world, something that he sees as worthwhile if it can help provide a further conterweight against Western "relativism" and atheistic skepticism, the very things that the original Regensberg address was primarily about. Considering the high cost of gaining these inroads (the appalling sight of John Paul kissing the Koran should be enough to shut down all talk of the late Pope's canonization) and the weight that he hopes a general consensus among the powerful world religions would have in restraining the excesses of Western liberalism, materialism and consumerism, we should not be surprized that he is willing to put such effort into preserving this fragile alliance.

Posted by: templar at September 25, 2006 1:37 PM

God Bless Pope Benedict XVI

Trust in his leadership. There have been no apologies, and it seems people are condeming him for arguing the point for which Western Democracy is based upon; Freedom of Thought (insert religion, speech, press, etc...) without violence and reprecussions.

His Emperor Palaeologus speech helped create this meeting, this journey of Muslims to the Pope's home, for a lecture by him. I personally do not trust these Muslims, but I do trust in the Pope to do his best to squash Islam as we know it.

This is exactly what the Pope wanted. The Muslims showed their absurdity with the reactions to the speech (stabbing a nun, c'mon grow up.) And now it has lead to a bunch of Muslim Clerics being lectured by the Pontiff, at his summer home. It's like the Papa telling his children that they have been naughty. If he turns the other way, I surely will be disappointed.

On the other hand, it is our Nations who must fight the full fight. If we didn't worry so much about "collateral damage" (thanks Lefties) maybe we'd have a better grip on these devil worshipers.

Posted by: Gotham at September 25, 2006 1:38 PM

Dear Concerned Citizen:

Thank you for your input and the links. I would be interested in knowing if this inconsistancy with calling Jesus only a prophet considering some of the events and titles accorded him in the Koran has been noted among Muslims themselves and not just by non-Muslims.

Thank you,
Monkeywho

Posted by: Monkeywho at September 25, 2006 1:39 PM

It appears that nobody, not even the author of this wiki article understands that in islam, there is no ethic of reciprocity between kufir and muslims.

I don't follow it more than i must, but it appears the source that was cited pertains to muslim-to-muslim relations... all others are to be killed or enslaved.

I like the Pope (i'm not Catholic), but it seems that unless they start spending some time at this blog they will remain in the dark about the core intent of jihad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you" — Muhammad (c. 571 – 632 CE) in The Farewell Sermon.

Posted by: squire at September 25, 2006 1:48 PM

Kate wrote

"He just keeps telling the truth: religious violence is wrong."

Whoop-de-doo. Like I needed the Pope to tell me that. Like Muslims are going to listen. I read the Pope's statement posted on the Vatican's website. The Pope has caved. Completely. He once again affirms Nostra Aetate:

"...the Council urges all parties that, forgetting past things, they train themselves towards sincere mutual understanding and together maintain and promote social justice and moral values as well as peace and freedom for all people" (Declaration, Nostra Aetate)"

Forget the past, people, forget Islam's history of jihad for the past 1400 years, because we're all living in the age of happy liberalism, where all bad things have been banished, and the greatest challenge we face is promoting "socialist justice", and "peace", and "freedom". All he leaves out is the love and dope.

Again quoting Nostra Aetate the Pope affirms that:

"They [Muslims] worship the one God living..."

...so Christians and Muslims worship the same God -- I mean, Allah (bet you Catholics didn't know you worshipped Allah). We're all just one big happy family -- can't we all just get along?

This Pope is a great, blubbering ninny.

Posted by: Zeno at September 25, 2006 1:50 PM

The Pope spoke the truth, and now he's taking the heat for it; and the Imams don't have the "inside track" on speaking about Islam -- as one poster implied.

Speaking the truth is a God given right to EVERYONE!! Put that in your pipe, Naseem!

Posted by: champ at September 25, 2006 2:01 PM

He's piling mistake upon mistake. Apologizing was a mistake. Kissing the asses of these guys can only embolden their Jihad, and that's a mistake. Implying equivalence between Christians and Moslems is an egregious mistake.

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

What the Pope shoulda done at this mtg was to simply read from the Koran and Hadiths. Right there into the faces of the deeply offended concession-demands Islamic clerics. Read one offending passage after another for, oh, about a half hour, and then simply walk out.

Hold up a mirror to a monster's face and the monster loses steam.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at September 25, 2006 2:10 PM

Christians must reject violence?! Is the Pope on dope?!

Posted by: george_rem at September 25, 2006 2:12 PM

Monkeywho and other Catholic apologists,

You, and the Catholic Church, are committing one fundamental error: both of you are assuming that Islam is a religion, rather than a heresy.

While the Catholic Church through its long tradition as well as Nostra Aetate has developed the open-mindedness to recognize and respect divinity howsoever it manifests itself in other religions, it is not obligated to recognize and respect heresies, which by Christian definition (developed over many centuries of debate and analysis) are deemed to pervert the knowledge of divinity. Indeed, the Catholic Church is positively obligated to condemn heresies.

Islam is a heresy, not a religion.

But Pope Benedict XVI, like millions of his fellow Westerners, has been infected with the PC Multiculturalist virus. And one of the Ten Commandments of PC Multiculturalism is:

Thou shalt not condemn Islam, because it is a multicultural religion. Thou shalt only condemn an extremist minority that 'hijacks' Islam.

Posted by: remote_control at September 25, 2006 2:24 PM

Get over yourself Naseem.

Your religion is nothing more than blind worship of a book written by men who lived in a backwards age. Therefore I find it unsurprising that Islam feels threatened by the West with its science and equal rights for all. We are too modern for Islam to survive our influence.

So what do your Imams suggest for protecting the faith from us? They want to drag the world back through time to the place where they still live. But that can’t happen in the modern world because news travels fast nowadays. Your friend kills a nun in Somalia and the entire world hears about it and forms an opinion. Not to mention the fact that we have the weapons and wealth that your leaders have wet dreams about. And finally it is impossible to make somebody believe something by pointing a gun at them.

These are the dying days of Islam my friend.

Al Qataani admitted on Al Jazeera that Islam is losing out to Christianity in Africa. A few more Islamic wars in Africa and nobody but the psychopaths will want to be a Muslim. You are losing support in South America, not that you had much there anyway. And I am sure many posters here will tell you what fate Islam faces in the USA if it tries to take over the country.

Yours is a dying faith Naseem. It feels so pressurised by the modern world that it is biting at fingers in a violent temper, like a cornered fox fighting for its life. We have a cure for cornered foxes in the West. It comes with two barrels:)

Posted by: Mert at September 25, 2006 2:26 PM

A memo to the Papacy: Muslims cannot reject violence because Islam itself IS violence.

Posted by: pythagoras at September 25, 2006 2:30 PM

Patriarchmichaelcerularis
It is not Chinese, it is Thai.
As for your on-line name the choice is very peculiar for a Catholic as the Patriarch started The Grate Schism against the Pope.
Incidentally, I do not agree with Jerusalem, but you or Jerusalem can convince me that his statement is correct. Just tell me the following:
Which specific “…Anglo-Saxon traditions and values” have “…brought unprecedented freedoms…”?
I’LL have a ball, if you do.
As for doing more then non-western world… Well, in Thailand we have killed far more Muslims then you have in any of the western countries.

Your reference to Robert Spencer is a punch below the belt. I like Robert and grateful to him for his work. Once I made a sarcastic remark to his post and though it was to the point, do not feel good about it. He did not react. I think because his position is difficult and he probably feels betrayed. One can only appreciate that even in the better times he never pressed Catholic line on this blog, as some others shamelessly do.

Posted by: pong at September 25, 2006 2:32 PM

"so Christians and Muslims worship the same God -- I mean, Allah (bet you Catholics didn't know you worshipped Allah). We're all just one big happy family -- can't we all just get along?"

Zeno!

I dealt with this question of yours the other day, in another thread. Did you bother to read the response to your own post? Do you read anything that other posters write, like an intelligent person would, with an open mind to the possibility that he might learn something new, or do you just light stink bombs and other incendiary devices and run off like an angry teenaged vandal?

Once again: Christians DO worship Allah, since Allah is simply the Arabic word for GOD - of which there IS only one. Arab Christians and Arab Jews also use this word - there's NOTHING scandalous or shocking about it! The fact that Muslims have a twisted IMAGE of God, one influenced by a dog's breakfast of ancient heresies and a confusing admixture of Jewish and Christian doctrine about Him does not change the fact that they at least have the insight that there is ONLY ONE God. Saying that Catholics worship Allah is exactly the same as saying that they worship Deus (Latin), Dieu (French), Theos (Greek), or Boh (Russian, Ukrainian and Polish).

DEAL WITH IT, you dingbat!

"This Pope is a great, blubbering ninny"

Really, Zeno?

No! Rather, you are an infantile twit!! Grow up and get a brain you moron, and top annoying us with you idiocy!

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 2:33 PM

Radical Islam will never "reject violence", because it's an intrical part of advancing their evil religion.

For some Muslims the Pope's apology is inadequate. In my opinion they don't want an apology, what they really want is a retraction.

In other words -- they want the Pope to lie and to stop telling the TRUTH.

Posted by: champ at September 25, 2006 2:33 PM

"top annoying us with you idiocy!"

LOL!

Sorry, folks. I find this guy is so exasperating he makes my vision get blurry.

Frankly, I think he's far more dangerous than Naseem.

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 2:38 PM

Alarmed Pig Farmer wrote:

"What the Pope shoulda done at this mtg was to simply read from the Koran and Hadiths. Right there into the faces of the deeply offended concession-demands Islamic clerics. Read one offending passage after another for, oh, about a half hour, and then simply walk out."

Wouldn't that be something! A Western leader who simply has the guts to stand up and read them stuff from their own "holy" books! But no! -- no Western leader has the guts to do that.

The Muslim response would be too frightening.

Posted by: Zeno at September 25, 2006 2:41 PM

patriarchmichaelcerularius wrote:

"top annoying us with you idiocy!"

I was going to tease you about that, but you beat me to it.

;-)

Posted by: Zeno at September 25, 2006 2:46 PM

I think that the Popes speach was aimed at the people in the West, with the Muslim actions proving his words, he defined the difference between us and the followers of Islam. If people here are keen to fight Islam then you do one simple thing, explain the difference between Western based thinking as compared to Islam as laid down by the pope.

His words were something that even the most hardened god hating socialist with a brain could work out.

It does not matter what he says now, the speach has done its job, though as far as I can see he basically apologised for upsetting them and then give a sucking up comment due to their muderous rage. The Muslims, fell into this well prepared trap and proved the pope correct, he has made his point and very skilfully done too.

Posted by: Daffersd at September 25, 2006 2:52 PM

Zeno:

I'm glad to know that you can read. When are you going to get the point? Stop wasting time on this non-issue and write us about something important.

Sorry for my caustic response, but your attack on the Pope and your criticism of the Vatican II document "Nostra aetate" and, by extension, on the sainted 11th century Pope, Gregory VII, whose teaching it is modelled on, is completely unjustified, as I tried, STRENULOUSLY to explain to you the other day.

If this is meant as a particular attack upon Catholics, and if you're serious about wanting to resist Jihad, then this is not the time or place for such interdenominational squabbles. The West, including its Christians, needs to close ranks. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with Catholicism about anything, but please keep it polite, civilized, and most importantly, accurate. We in these pages have to keep in mind that its the Islamist menace that's the threat, not one another.

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 3:00 PM

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, explained why Islam is not violent :

Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, the third option of violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam. (The Australian, "Creed of the sword", Sept 23, 2006)

Classic.

Posted by: yaqub at September 25, 2006 3:18 PM

Since the Pope did not grovel sufficiently (in Islamaniac eyes anything short of converting is insufficient) we will probably see more reports of anti-Pope hysteria from the peaceful ones in the coming days.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at September 25, 2006 3:18 PM

"I pray to almighty God the crisis will be behind us . . . . We need to sit together -- Muslims, Christians, Jews and the rest of the world, the rest of religions, in order to find common ground for peaceful coexistence."

-Iraqi ambassador to the Holy See
Albert Edward Ismail Yelda

Difficult, as long as this kind of thing keeps floating around the Internet:

GUESS WHO?

(or the lost prophet)

There he's squattin' on the coals
preaching to the faithful souls:
if it weren't for the Jews
we’d all be drinking booze
banging virgins with dark eyes
in the promised paradise

--anonymous

Posted by: unicorns62000 at September 25, 2006 3:19 PM

A lot of Catholics were hoping that Pope was starting a new crusade against islam, when, to their later chagrin, they found out he is just another church bureaucrat at the end of his lifespan.

All the Pope had to do, and I said this days ago, was to quote, not from some Byzantine emperor, but from the Koran and the hadiths. That is all. Read it verbatim and let the world interpret what was said. There was no need to talk about evil this or inhuman that. Those are subjective terms which the muslims just jumped on as being bigoted, and for which they got the Pope to apologize over and over again even going so far as to say he has profound respect for all muslims.

Then to add insult to injury, he talks like Rosie O'Donnell and refers to Christian violence and how, like muslim violence, Christian violence needs to end. What Christian violence?

Bravo. Basically, the Pope was gangbanged by a billion muslims and turned into Allah's whore. At least, that is how the muslims see it. Thereby empowering their already overinflated narcisstic egos to spur them to more jihad.

The Pope just made the problem worse. Make them mad, then apologize on demand, to make then gloat.

Now with that gloating, they go forward, ever more convinced that God is on their side, ever more convinced that they can conquer Christianity because after all, they just made the Pope, that tired old man hobling around in the heavy robe, their whore-on-a-chain.

Posted by: August22 at September 25, 2006 3:35 PM

The Pope expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith

Yes, the sawing off of heads is most certainly worthy of profound respect and esteem.

Benedict won them; lost me. No threw me away in favor of them.

Just as well; at least I am clear on where things stand on this issue.

Posted by: witness at September 25, 2006 3:37 PM

Naseemo: The imams' "confidence" you speak of is nothing more than hard-headed idiocy. It has absolutely nothing to do with the correctness of a position, or the truth of their assertions.

The Pope is great enough that he can afford to be magnanimous and gracious. Your little islam men are little men, ignorant men, quarrelsome men. Even the imams cannot afford to lose face amongst their barbarian rat-pack.

But I reckon you'll insist on this confidence business, anyway. As if confidence were the badge of the superior man, and the emblem of the best of his doings. So, let us see if this great confidence of islam can stand the test of reality. Show us the confidence of the islamic pharmaceutical executive, aircraft manufacturer, or steel producer. Does islam have a paper factory? Aluminium smelter? Space station? Artificial hip? Ball point pen? Pop-top beverage can? Ice-cream factory? Television screen? Flush toilet? Especially the flush toilet.

Can your glorious muslims help humanity in its struggle with disease and disability? Where is its wonderful confidence when it counts for something? Certainly, such a great culture and such a great religion can show us its accomplishments. Is there a moslem anywhere who can even make a wooden pencil?

Your adulation for muslim confidence is pathetic. If that's all you've got, and I believe it is...well, have at it. Bask in the confidence of the ignorant peasant and peon. The world has passed you by, and you are just resentful as hell. Muslims want what we have, and think they will conquer the world and take it.

What Shinola!! Pearls to swine. Your glorious confident imams wouldn't know what to do with anything more complicated that a brick. And they blow up or waste whatever they manage to get. Look at the cesspool countries where they have their way.

Go kiss their asses. You deserve each other.

Posted by: texan at September 25, 2006 3:49 PM

Benedict XVI is light years ahead of any muslim cleric. He had not appologized, you need to read his words carefully and slowyl if your as dumb witted as ms nasseem, who is btw very lonely older muslim women considered worthless without a husband.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 25, 2006 3:50 PM

Fedup

The term 'Fuckistan' has been on my mind a long time, but I have to give you credit for beating me to it.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 25, 2006 4:14 PM

Pong:

Thanks for your clarification of a number of points. First of all, I greatly respect the achievements of the Thais in their resistance to Islamic aggression. This is something I have known about vaguely, but not in detail. I hope to learn more about this from you in these pages.

I am not interested in getting into a competition with you about different world civilizations; none is superior to any other, and there is certainly a great deal of wisdom in Oriental cultures that we in the West could learn from, and hopefully still will. My only intent was to ward off what seemed to me like a harsh and UNWARRANTED criticism of the Pope and of Catholics. In answer to your question though - a legitimate one at that - I would say that one of the great contributions that Western societies have made more than others to human development is the practice of parliamentary democracy, something first developed in Britain, and the culture of human rights and the rule of law which began to take shape in the 11th century, and this even has some roots in ancient Greece and Rome. This development is by no means complete, and of course, people from all over the world have contributed to it in many, and very important, ways but I think its probably safe to say that, in recent centuries, it has had the deepest roots, and born the most abundant fruit in the West. I believe it was also responsible for the West's industrialization - the first in the world - which itself is a great achievement though not without its dark side, that other regions are now trying to catch up with. That said, we have serious problems that other cultures' wisdom could have helped us avoid, and there have been grave problems associated with the resulting Western arrogance and imperialism in various parts of the world. Now none of this is absolutely certain on my part, and I'm open to other perspectives on it, including any information that you can provide.

My choice of on-line name is an interesting point. I usually use the name "Templar" because of my admiration for the Templar Knights of the Crusades. Because I write from a variety of different perspectives, however, I thought it might be good to adopt some others in order to use them to underscore or clarify the point I might be trying to make or the perspective I'm trying to take in a particular post. As a Theology graduate and former seminarian in the Greek Catholic Church (similar, as you probably know to the Orthodox Church, but in communion with the Pope and the Roman Church) I wanted a name that would reflect this theological position and the Byzantine heritage at the root of it, to use in making a point on Christian theology, one that could remove any doubt or ambiguity in the mind of a reader as to what point I'm trying to make. As a Catholic, this name may seem odd for me, as you note, but today Catholic theologians are generally of the view that the Great Schism of East and West is one for which the blame is shared by both sides, and the Byzantines were no more in the wrong than the Latins were. Cerularius appeals to me not for his role in the schism with Rome but because, among the other things he was trying to achieve in his time, was the protection of the rights and freedoms of the Church against the overarching power of the Emperor - the so-called "Caesaro-Papist" subordination of the Church by the state that too few Byzantine Patriarchs resisted. Of course, one could say that he went too far in the other direction, trying to impose rule of the State by the Church.

I also use "Jacques de Molay" when I'm trying to make a point in favour of more "free-thinking" positions. De Molay, you may know, was the last Grand Master of the Templars, and was burned at the stake because of the treachery of King Philip IV of France and Pope Clement V.

Generally, I avoid making an issue out of religion in these pages, not wanting to "shamelessly press the Catholic line" as you put it. It's just that, by definition, the issue in this particular thread calls for a reaction to the theological angle of the story, hence my use in this thread of my "theological" name - Cerularius. Hopefully, the choice of such a name at least further underlines that I do not see everything from an exclusively Catholic point of view, much less try to impose this line of thought on others.

As for Robert, whom I respect as much as you do, it does seem to me that you are attempting to put words into his mouth. I was only speaking for myself. But I thought it important to make the point that Catholics are thouroughly involved in resistance to Jihad. As for whether he feels "betrayed" by the Pope, I think we should leave this to him to say if he wishes to.

I hope that clears things up a bit. Again, my deepest respect to you and your countrymen, especially for your brave resistance to Jihad. I'd appreciate hearing from you more often to know how things are going there.

Templar

Posted by: patriarchmichaelcerularius at September 25, 2006 4:16 PM

In other news from Europe, German opera house cancels provocative Mohammed staging

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/25/060925192943.tqohhg8j.html

Now Muslims restrict artistic freedom in the heart of Europe. It has come to that! Unbelievable cowardice.

Posted by: george_rem at September 25, 2006 4:21 PM

mojori,

The key points that Reuters omitted, possibly on purpose, and which you brought up (for which we are thankful):

. . . to live with respect for the identity and freedom of each individual . . .

--Pope Benedict XVI

This is is most un-Islamic. In Islam, the identity of an individual must be submitted to the belief imposed from above (by Islamic clerics who got it from the Koran, Hadith, etc., via Mohammed, via the archangel Gabriel, supposedly from the "deity most high" itself.)

Moreover, the Pope quoted his predecessor:

" . . . reciprocity in all spheres, especially in that which concerns basic freedoms, more particularly religious freedom."

--John Paul II

This is at odds with the basic "divine" laws of Islam that allows only freedom within what is permitted by Islam.

As for religious freedom . . .

. . . There is no reciprocity between Islam and any other belief system in the world.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at September 25, 2006 4:31 PM

texan,

The DO make knives in Pakistan*. Swords also. The steel is shitty, dull, but just perfect for slowly sawing off heads.

To quickly gut an opponent, you need steel that will hold a razor edge, have him open and his innards spilling out before he knows he's been cut.

Great reply to that pro-Islamic rant though. My hat's off to you.

-------------------
*also rifles, by hand, banged out with a hammer.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at September 25, 2006 4:43 PM

I was really disappointed when I heard this last night. You MUST give it a listen folks.

Is Bush a confused Christian?
Excerpts from an interview by Charles Gibson.
http://www.thebereancall.org/radio/radio/2006/3806b.mp3

This is bad news folks. Here is our President, in his own words, saying that allah and Jehovah are the same God.

It takes a minute to get past all the address details and details about this radio program website, but once the radio program begins, it goes straight into the interview. So be patient, it’s a real eye-opener.

Posted by: The Goobs at September 25, 2006 4:43 PM

Dear Remote_Control and others:

Monkeywho and other Catholic apologists,

You, and the Catholic Church, are committing one fundamental error: both of you are assuming that Islam is a religion, rather than a heresy.

____________

As posted above earlier from Vatican II:

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religious, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life; they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men

_____________

Heresy, on a purely subjective personal level, is derived from a Christian holding an incorrect view on some dogma, not a non-Christian.

However, I would suggest that just because Catholics work to "...preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men" does NOT mean that we ignore or endorse error, lies, violence, or as you put it 'hersesy.'

This is probably where I would agree with you Remote_Control. The Catholic Church has done a horrible job at address the negative, errors, and un-truth within Islam. This is a fault and must be corrected. Yes, we, as a general culture, are infected with the so called "multi-cultural PC virus."

In my above post I wasn't really attempting to act as a Catholic apologist, but rather to show where the Pope is coming from.

Posted by: Monkeywho at September 25, 2006 4:54 PM

the Pope, that tired old man hobling around in the heavy robe, their whore-on-a-chain.

Posted by: August22

If something like a new Crusade truly is needed, August22, Benedict's methods are going to do far more to rouse it than all of your abrasive ranting ever will. Frankly this kind of toxic sludge, which you're so good at spewing everywhere, reduces your credibility far more than his.

Most members of the public at large will be far more persuaded by Benedict's intelligent and thoughtful words than by yours.

The words of you and those like you are far more of a hindrance than a help

Posted by: templar at September 25, 2006 4:56 PM

FedUp,
Your creativity with words was commended here earlier for your using the term, "fuckistan" but penning, "sperm latrine" to describe a Muslim woman, was remarkable, poetic brilliance. Kudos, (I think).

Posted by: Xero G at September 25, 2006 5:34 PM

Ineresting conversation here today. I think we should analyze the fact that the Pope, note that capitals “P” naseem, mentioned the incongruities between rights of Christians and other minorities in the Middle East in contrast with the rights muslems have in the west. He also brought up the practice of executing apostates from islam, note the lower case “I” in islam naseem. Did you see the footage of the meeting between the Pope and those cromags he had over to the Vatican to represent the muslim world. They couldn’t even look the Pope in the eye, because they know he was right in his analysis. Only one imam did, but he shifted his eyes away in shame. If you get a chance watch these people and the interaction it was very telling body language.

Posted by: ethoman at September 25, 2006 5:52 PM

Judging from the headline,the Pope was half right. However, I don't recall too many stories of Christians beheading hostages,flying planes into buildings and strapping explosives to themselves before getting onto buses in recent years. All that Muslim rage must have rattled him a little.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at September 25, 2006 5:54 PM

Fedup

The capital of Fuckistan is Pisslamabad, and its largest city is La-Whore, and the hotbed of Jihadi activity is Push-a-War and Quit-her.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at September 25, 2006 5:55 PM

Why is everyone attacking naseem? She is only explaining how the muslim world will perceive the Pope actions. The muslims will see his actions as surrender and therefore cowardice and submission to islam. We westerners will tend to perceive it as a sign of a benevolent religious leader attempting to mend fences or as a carefully thought out attempt to show islams dirty secret (that he and the earlier Pope were right).

In the end it doesn’t matter what we think as the muslims always spin everything in their own favor as they have mechanism to question islam or its methods. The propaganda fight is only part of this fight and like it or not the muslims are way ahead.

Posted by: Ronin at September 25, 2006 5:59 PM

Wow. Why should Pope ever apology to lying SOBs of Islam? He will never do that.

Posted by: OneEyedWink at September 25, 2006 6:15 PM

Benedict XVI is light years ahead of any muslim cleric. He had not appologized, you need to read his words carefully and slowyl if your as dumb witted as ms nasseem...

A nun is shot in the back, and murdered in cold blood. What does Benedict subsequently have to say?

The Pope expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith ...

Catholic churches are burned to the ground, and catholic lay members are murdered around the world. What does Benedict subsequently have to say?

The Pope expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith ...

What part of Benedicts expression of his "esteem and profound respect for members of the Islamic faith," do you not understand?

Or is it really denial? My catholic neighbors think the pope is god on earth and can not make mistakes of any kind -- perhaps this notion is the underpinning of the whole twisted apologies trying to protect his statements.

I've read his statement in its entirety; read the apologists analysis of his statement; read all of the pathetic excuses by his apologists trying every twist and turn of logic they can to justify his statements.

I won't shed another tear for any more of his churches burned to the ground by islamics; and I will stop feeling sorry for the priests and nuns who are subsequently murdered by the islamics.

After all, I'll remind myself of what Benedict himself has said: that he personally has " esteem and profound respect for members of the Islamic faith."

End of my discussion on the subject.

Posted by: witness at September 25, 2006 6:15 PM

Templar, I couldn't care less of what you think of me. I'm just an internet IP address. Your views do not concern me. Your dislike for my words does not in any way discount what I said. Deal with the issue at hand, not JW personalities.

Posted by: August22 at September 25, 2006 6:17 PM

muslims attack when they perceive weakness. Real apologies or not, it is their perception that counts, not ours.

Posted by: Ronin at September 25, 2006 6:19 PM

Assalamau Laikum all,

A good debate and I thank many of the westerns acknowledging that they feel abandoned by the pope or that his balancing act now is so delicate, it's like a rope trick over the niagra falls. ...one more slip up and he will truly require a miracle to save him. There is hope for many of you yet not in the depths of dispair over Benedict....come and join Islam.

Many peoples have written a response (thank you fedup) but I would like to reply to one that Texan wrote...who falsly thinks that it is the Westerner whose confidence should be sky high.

He says "Show us the confidence of the islamic pharmaceutical executive, aircraft manufacturer, or steel producer. Does islam have a paper factory? Aluminium smelter? Space station? Artificial hip? Ball point pen? Pop-top beverage can? Ice-cream factory? Television screen? Flush toilet? Especially the flush toilet".

I have to admit you are bang on the money there...except ofcourse Allah Tallah has thought of everything. Why do WE have to do any inventing when YOU are so good at it...but you only have to see history...you invent ...we "buy"...there are plenty of greedy Kafur and always will be...just look at the example of A Q Khan...the dutch handed him nucleur secrets you spent billions on and ghe just rubbed the lamp and called up the genie.

The Kafur scientists develop the things at your expense ...but in reality he is doing it for the majority muslim of tomorrow.

Today you invent of your own free will, tomorrow you will invent at our whim...because that is the price you will pay for wanting to remain a dhimmi in Eurabia or the Islamic states of Amerekie.

It is no secret, you know it, Hugh Fitzgerald knows it and we know it...we need the time anyway to pray to Allah...I hope this explains why the muslim is a hopless inventor ...but his confidence in Allah the provider is sky high.

Posted by: Naseem at September 25, 2006 6:21 PM

Hmmm, once again I find myself agreeing with naseem. She is right muslims do not invent much but she failed to add, they do master things. They took pedophilia, torture, rape, pillage and murder out of the ashes and made it into an art form. mohammed left quite a legacy, not bad for a uneducated, unemployed, pedophile, prophet wannabe.

Know your enemy.

Posted by: Ronin at September 25, 2006 6:32 PM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Wom August22, Ronin, Witness, you guys rock.
Witness says "A nun is shot in the back, and murdered in cold blood. What does Benedict subsequently have to say?

The Pope expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith ...

Now that is what I mean brotha...but if I say it...I am villified...BUT YOU TELL ME..fedup..What part of this statement is untrue?

The pope's advisors are trying to get him to worm...yes worm his way out this....but they are a pathetic shower.

Reading the comments here show that the western community is bitterly divided..they pray for a leader but get a 79 year old child...listening for advice from advisors pissing in their holy pants.

Their words are like holy water off a duck's back and that IS the truth of it.

In the mean time muslims are riding high...another few nudges and who knows what Benedict would admit to. ...It is a shambles...yes shambles...and really indefenceable for you westerners....but you get worm asskissers like fedup who thinks that this has made Benedict more Pope-ular (pun intended).

I must admit that this is not the last of it....there willl be more protests..until muslims get a proper apology as to the truth about Islam.

Posted by: Naseem at September 25, 2006 6:36 PM

naseem as much as we distrust your intentions, your religion and your rants, we (ok, sometimes just me) will defend your right to post. I for one would love to meet you. Having you walk 12 steps to my rear would do you some good. I tower over your paki men and I have never struck, tortured, raped or honor killed a woman. I can’t say I would enjoy a conversion to islam but I do know I would be a holy terror. I will promise you this much, if you succeed into convincing me to convert, I will practice my newfound religion all over pakistan. That is after all the least I can do.

Posted by: Ronin at September 25, 2006 6:45 PM

"Deal with the issue at hand, not JW personalities"

Posted by August22

Since you are, as I am, "just an internet IP address", I have no opinion about you "personally".

Funny, though. I thought the issue in this thread is Benedict XVI, and his words and actions. You made a statement about this. I responded. That has nothing to do with "personalities".

But your words indicate clearly you would have preferred that the Pope had been much more bellicose in his handling of his Muslim guests, and that anything short of this is an unprincipalled sell-out. I'm simply stating, as clearly as I can, why, as I see it, that type of approach would be ineffective and why he has to follow the kind of path he has. And I do think that its quite fair to criticize your rhetoric, since I presume that your words reflect what you think.

The difference between us is this, and its entirely on topic: I think what Benedict did was correct, at least at this stage. You do not. Fair enough. Time will tell which of us is more correct. But I'm convinced that if Benedict wants to win over public opinion he has to come across as calm, reasonable and responsible to a degree that no one - I, you, or anyone else - posting in this forum ever has to.

You are free to write as you wish. And so am I. However, as someone who has found some of your arguments persuasive at times (though it required some distance from the discussion), I would consider it a shame if you lost influence with some readers because of your tone. But I suppose that's your business. I will not refer to it again.

Posted by: templar at September 25, 2006 7:23 PM

Naseem -- is that you -- or some imposter? Whoever wrote that last post is NOT the Naseem we have come to know, because the real Naseem can't write worth shit.

Who are you really?

Posted by: champ at September 25, 2006 7:34 PM

The apologising from the pope is like a habit now.... to a situation that ofcourse he created for himself.
--- Nasseem the enthusiastic Moslima

No, the situation was created by the awful Mohammed when he drove a stake into the sand (probably through somebody's heart) to establish the 6th Pillar of Islam, the ideology's greatest strength.

6th Pillar of Islam is defined here as the pervasive threat of personal murder. It is at the source of the most effective form of censorhip in world history.

Nasseem, the 6th Pillar is your ace in the hole in the Jihad war struggle for world takeover. Silence the opposition and incrementally raise the Islam Fictive Reality.

Sure, there are other Islamic principles: breed like flies, go to mosque on Friday, keep up the pace of mass murder operations, and take over the world.

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

But the most important brick in the growing Islamic Wall is the silence among Infidels. If we can't discuss, we can't cogitate. If the Moslem side is hyper aggressive in the public discourse, and the Infidel side is silent, to which side is the power gonna slide?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at September 25, 2006 7:35 PM

And Naseem would never write, "you guys rock"....that's hilarious!

Posted by: champ at September 25, 2006 7:37 PM

because after all, they just made the Pope, that tired old man hobling around in the heavy robe, their whore-on-a-chain.

ouch :-o

Posted by: km at September 25, 2006 7:43 PM

On a more positive note, August22, you said:

"All the Pope had to do ... was to quote, not from some Byzantine emperor, but from the Koran and the hadiths. That is all. Read it verbatim and let the world interpret what was said".

Your point here, at least the suggestion that he quote from their own sources, is valid. This, or something similar, may be coming. Again, time will tell.

One thing that is clear from Vatican analysts: this Pope was elected because he was seen as the one to take on Islam and other movements challenging the Church. However, he must do it in the way that one would expect of a religious leader: through persuasion, reasoned argument and good example, and the frustrating thing about these methods can be that they do proceed SLOWLY, or they can seem to.

But anyone who has known him, knows that Joseph Ratzinger is no mere "church bureaucrat".

Posted by: templar at September 25, 2006 7:55 PM

.until muslims get a proper apology as to the truth about Islam.

Naseem the dirtly little secret is out, no appology will be accepted by muslims unless all non muslims are converted, killed or pay up. that is why the Pope did not appologize.
you are correct, muslims cannot invent things, as their minds are too closed, and too busy butchering, maiming,raping little children. the hobby of pakis is to do to a protest. muslims are the most useless beings on this earth, what a sad life, always angry, always defending the cult of death, you are so sad.hopefully your son will stay "westernized" and stay away from frutistan. you know another secret, muslims are leaving their cult faster than you can bow down and say allah babba! live long and understand islam is on it last legs! lol

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 25, 2006 7:57 PM

How many Muslims are under that burqua besides your son, Naseem?

Thanks, Fed Up, I kind-a thought the last post was from her son, Nafar.

Posted by: champ at September 25, 2006 7:58 PM

Hmmm a moderate muslim female with a cross dressing, blogging son. Only in pakistan.

Posted by: Ronin at September 25, 2006 8:02 PM

Templar I enjoyed reading your posts and arguments.
As much as I understand August22's and others frustration I think I side with with your analysis, you said.

Time will tell which of us is more correct. But I'm convinced that if Benedict wants to win over public opinion he has to come across as calm, reasonable and responsible to a degree that no one - I, you, or anyone else - posting in this forum ever has to.

Holy war is inevitable and the Pope knows this, he is doing what is necessary to maintain the Moral high ground.

Posted by: km at September 25, 2006 8:11 PM

Ha Ha Ha -- cross dressing, blogging son -- Ha Ha Ha! That's good!

Posted by: champ at September 25, 2006 8:19 PM

That was by far the worst "Naseem" imposter of the many we've seen.

Brotha. Compared to this one, the old Naseem "rocks".

Which does concern me; how do we know the "real" Naseem isn't being churned like butter by impious Pak muslims, while they are taking turns posting using her login?

Imagine her horror at seeing garden variety Deobandis posting in her name without the required Ahmadi da'wa?

We could call the LaHore authorities, but it was probably their idea.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 25, 2006 8:22 PM

I realize I like to feed the troll(s) but I was the first to figure out a few months back there was more than one naseem. At least one is male, some of the arabic phrases I have used would look normal to a muslim male but very offensive to a woman. It was a test and she/he lost. Doesn’t matter, I enjoy the myth of naseem almost as much as the myth of the muslim moderate.

Posted by: Ronin at September 25, 2006 8:26 PM

Ronin, the naseem that first came here at one point began to express her own fears of what was happening around her. After the Tsunami, she seemed to become a completely different person, as you noted... I don't think the first, true, and quite possibly, Far Better naseem has been posting here for some time.

Posted by: Gary at September 25, 2006 8:43 PM

pong posted: As a result I would like to wave goodbye to all Catholics as from now on it would be difficult to trust any of you in our fight