These camps are International Refugee Camps and fall under the jurisdiction of the U.N.

If Israel were to ever counter attack in these areas then Israel will be guilty in the eyes of the world and the media for attacking refugee camps. So, it sounds as if there are multiple reasons for this to occur. Out of the reach of the Lebanese army, and under the protection of the UN and the media, and Israel will always be viewed as 'guilty' if they try and take them out.

The UN can be pressed by Bolton and see what inaction occurs. At the same time, the Lebanese army does not have jurisdiction in these camps, but the HOST country Lebanon can kick the refugee camps out once they have worn out their welcome. Again most likely, inaction. Kick the camps out and send them to Syria.

Sounds like the Christian Lebanese Militia are going to have to take their country back.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at September 26, 2006 3:34 PM

The Lebanon war has been badly misunderstood. Israel never stood a chance of eliminating the military capabilities of Hezbollah. Since they are backed and supplied by Iran and Syria, only mtaking away those nations' ability to resupply Hezbollah could ever make a difference.

The war against Hezbollah was really a war against Lebanon's civillians. This is neither imoral nor inappropriate. Hezbollah, even though it is a terror/Islamic organization, still has to answer to the people upon whose heads it brings down the power of Israel. The next provocation from Hezbollah will bring howls of condemnation from Lebanese of all stripes, simply because they know the consequences.

The idea that war is to be prosecuted without recourse to attacking civillians is foolish, ahistorical and counterproductive. It only leads to yet more rounds of fighting and potentially even more deaths. If Israel could make it absolutely clear that the civillian populations among whom the Jihadis proliferate will be destroyed utterly, the Jihad will quickly cease, either from reasoned change of policy, or much deserved annihiliation. The prevarications about avoiding civillian casualties fall upon deaf ears. Muslims and much of the world does not believe it anyway, and to many Muslims it smacks of weakness to be exploited. Asking civillian populations to evacuate, warning them of impending attacks, etc., is disatrous. The Shiite population in southern Lebanon should be targetted directly and have to flee for their lives. When they finally are offered the opportunity to return to the land they previously resided upon, they will think twice about their "resistance". It is only international "law" that even grants these people the right to live where they do. In a just world Israel would keep Lebanese territory forever, after depopulating it of its treacherous Shiite inhabitants. The rest of Lebanon could then draw the proper conclusions about the consequences of continued revanchism. Israel's failure to continue expanding as retaliation for Arab hostility is the source of most of their current problems. The US is much to blame for this.

The recent Lebanon war saw about 1000 civillian dead on the Lebanese side. It remains to be seen if this is enough to deter another round of fighting, but my sense is that it will be effective. If not, next time it has to be much, much worse. Macchiavelli and Muhammad both understood this axiom of warfare. Israel has foolishly moralized, and broken up the evil that they must do (and war is always evil) into tiny pieces over decades. This gives them the appearance of immorality far out of proportion to their acts. A short, horrible bloodletting is better than a long, drawn out war of attrition.

Posted by: Quijybo at September 26, 2006 4:04 PM

Israel should destroy anything or war making potential withing 20 miles of their borders and this would end.

Posted by: Texican at September 26, 2006 4:08 PM

In my view the responsibility lies with the Lebanese government. If they are a government they will stop gross violations of international laws by allowing terrorist groups to install weapons of war in the midst of civilian areas. If they are unable to comply with the basic tenets of international law the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the Lebanese government does not exist as a functional entity.

Posted by: IceDragon at September 26, 2006 4:21 PM

Israel should give up Shebaa Farms so Hizboullah has ZERO excuse to keep their arms. Then Israel needs to squeal like a stuck pig when (as will inevitably happen) Hizboullah breaks its promise.

If my suggestion sounds wimpy, oh well. It's all a stupid game till the big showdown with their puppet master Iran

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 26, 2006 4:26 PM

Ynkeedoodl2, Hizballah goes from one excuse to another for attacking Israel. Handing Shebaa Farms over to Lebanon or Syria will not make Hizballah go away, because, as you concede, they are proxies for Iran (and Syria). The only thing that will make Hizballah go away is the military defeat of the Syrian and Iranian regimes by whatever means is necessary.

chsw

Posted by: chsw at September 26, 2006 4:36 PM

Hizballah moving rockets to Palestinian camps, rebuilding bunkers

Duh!?

Posted by: Pelayo at September 26, 2006 4:55 PM

Yeah, let the world do moral headstands and just simply re-arm with a big smile on your face, knowing full well that the UN does not have the will or the desire to stop you. So, who is left to stop you? Israel and the USA. And that is exactly what this all is going to come to.

God, this is really getting disgusting. Why have a resolution when nobody is going to enforce it? NUTS!!!

Posted by: bonncaruso at September 26, 2006 5:00 PM

-- The only thing that will make Hizballah go away is the military defeat of the Syrian and Iranian regimes by whatever means is necessary.--

I agree totally, regime change in Iran and Syria is the only way. The means should be a waring to others not to mess about with us any more. We need an omelet, let's not spare the eggs.

Posted by: IceDragon at September 26, 2006 5:02 PM

Of course I know that Shebaa Farms is just an excuse. I can't imagine it constitutes an area of indespensible strategic interest for Israel, so hand it back. Put the heat on Hezboullah.

It's only going to take a spark (a suicide truck driver, a kidnapped UN peacekeeper, or who knows) and Lebanon will be up in flames.

I want the finger pointed where it belongs.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 26, 2006 5:12 PM

Lebanon seems to have give up their sovereignity to the proxies of Iran. Lebanon as a distinct country with enforceable political borders no longer exists. Lebanon should no longer exist.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at September 26, 2006 5:19 PM

The solution is not for Israel to give up this or that piece of land. Hezbollah is fighting to take back Jerusalem for Islam. Israel should meet the hostility of its neighbors with silence and violence, not pleading for peace. Arab leaders should come to Israel for peace, because there is no viable alternative. Muslims need to feel the fear of annihilation, not some low-grade humiliation which is actualy brought on by their religious practices and retrograde culture.

Posted by: Quijybo at September 26, 2006 5:24 PM

Israel will not suffer under the same propaganda attacks this time around. They will have been shown to have been right. hezbollah will get froggy and Israel will smack the crap out of them again. This time the world will see Israel had little choice the UN refused to help and hezbollah (gasp) lied.

Posted by: Ronin at September 26, 2006 5:44 PM

It's a game. Therefore Israel should play along Middle-East style. I personally get aggravated when Israel starts sounding like Condi Rice and George Bush, indignant and outraged because some principle or agreement has been violated. For heaven's sakes, this is the Middle East, land of moustaches and treachery.

Believe me the soapbox is important in all this. The key thing is wagging fingers, pointing blame, acting the victim, rubbing it in. Always rubbing it in.

After I handed back Shebaa farms, I'd ask why they still have an assault rifle as part of their flag.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 26, 2006 5:45 PM

Ynkedoodl2,

I want the finger pointed where it belongs.

The finger would be pointed at Israel even if, G-d forbid, all that's left of it were Tel-Aviv, making its last stand like Acre in 1291. To expect otherwise is to underestimate the power of the divinely-instituted hatred toward the Jews.

What is needed is not concessions, not agreements, not apologies, but a breaking of the Islamic will to subjugate. Just as a school bully is not cured of his habits by reasoning, by concessions or even by psychological counseling, but by punishment, harder and harder until his will to bully others is broken. (And the fact that schools in the West today, under the influence of the humanist psychologists of the 1960's, have abandoned that methodology sheds ample light on the causes of the sorry state of those schools today.)

Posted by: ZionistYoungster at September 26, 2006 5:46 PM

I issue a fatwa demanding all hezbollah rockets be filled with giant paintballs. They will make nice little splats, add color and do little harm, "islam means peace".

Posted by: Ronin at September 26, 2006 5:50 PM

ZionistYoungster:

The PR job is strictly for the world, the morale of Israeli citizens and the few enlightened souls who still live in Lebanon. I have absolutely no doubt that a savage ass-kicking is what's in store for Hezboullah. When that happens (not if, but when) I want everyone to fully understand who the perpetrators are and were from the get-go.

By the way, even if there were only two hezbullies left in the world, they'd find a way to make war on the Jews. They only to live to hate and fight.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 26, 2006 5:58 PM

Ynkedoodl2,

The PR job is strictly for the world

That's exactly my point: why should Israel give up any land when it wouldn't yield even approval from the world? In the last conflict with Hizbullah, the world's argument against Israel wasn't, "Israel had it coming because it didn't evacuate the Shebaa farms". It was, if you remember, the "disproportionate response" argument: "Sure Israel has a right to defend itself, but not by destroying a whole country and killing innocent children". And there will always be some argument against the steps Israel takes to defend itself from such enemies as ours who lack any moral scruples whatsoever (q.v. human shields).

When I think of this idea of giving lands for the sake of PR, I think it's an interesting development: the Israeli Left (Peace Now, Gush Shalom and the rest) was once bullish on conceding lands for the sake of peace. After that bubble burst in October 2000, they changed their tune in favor of giving lands for the sake of gaining legitimacy from world opinion in case the time comes to retaliate. But now, in the recent war, though attacked from our internationally-recognized borders on both north and south, our self-defense won no support from those who weren't already on the side of Israel, and condemnation was quick to arrive as soon as Hizbullah brought their own PR guns in the form of dead children's bodies (human shields, with a touch of staging and photoshopping). Ever since then, I've come to realize the real PR battle is to be waged by scaling the fortress of root assumptions and presuppositions, not by mere gestures.

When that happens (not if, but when) I want everyone to fully understand who the perpetrators are and were from the get-go.

Those who know now will know in the future. Those who have the victims and perpetrators inverted, that is, most of the Left, will hold on to their delusions until the bitter end, unless G-d intervenes to change them.

Posted by: ZionistYoungster at September 26, 2006 6:13 PM

muslim propaganda centers on the victim theme. It worked for a while but today information is fast and free. We saw them lie repeatedly and we see hezbollah rearming. The victim card will not work this time around. We will cheer Israel onward.

Israel needs better themes themselves. I would go with, even their kids are killers (we have pictures of young wannabe suicide bombers) take away the killing innocents argument. Play the muslims game against them, use the pictures of kids, rioting, attacking soldiers and mix it with shots of angered, crazed hezbollah nut jobs. Oh, heck, I’ll write this add champaign for you, you just load your weapons and call me when you are ready.

Posted by: Ronin at September 26, 2006 6:23 PM

More than likely, the government of Israel is of your opinion and not mine. Nevertheless, given the strategic insignificance of Shebaa Farms vs. it's propoganda value, Hezboullah will have the last word.

I hate when Hezboullah gets to appear sanctimonious as they are doing on this issue. Ridiculous.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at September 26, 2006 6:24 PM

It ain't over yet, Israel will get one more chance at the hezzies. And if Israel doesn't wipe them off the map, Israel is finished. Israel should have never given lands taken in time of war, mo sees it as weakness.

Posted by: AMartinez at September 26, 2006 6:39 PM

Israel , if attacked again, should take the gloves off and don't worry about killing babies, women and children, since their loved ones put them in harms way.

So the peacekeepers just stand by while the hizbollah rearms? What a waste. The peacekeepers should be there to root out hizbollah and THAT would be true peacekeepers.

Posted by: freewoman at September 26, 2006 6:40 PM

It was inevitable. Each time the mongrels bow down in worship to their black rock in the Kaba with their asses upturned, they pray for death to Israel. Let's make sure Israel has our 2000 lb bunker busters to kick their ass but good. Let them dig all they want, they're digging their future graves. The next war is inevitable, UN, DC, EU, bad strategy, their fault for next wave of death.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at September 26, 2006 7:00 PM

With one or two exceptions, most posters here have the right idea. Playing to "world opinion" or hoping to trade "land for peace" is beating the bleached-bone carcass of a horse.

The U.S. decided to attack Iraq as the center of jihad, instead of Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. Similarly, Israel decided to attack Lebanon. These are not the main players. As long as we continue attacking marionettes, while leaving the puppet-masters untouched, the sick Punch-and-Judy show will continue.

The lack of understanding of jihad on both sides of the aisle is distressing.

Posted by: special_guest at September 26, 2006 7:11 PM

This is very frustrating. Not only does Hisbollah have the civilian population to hide behind, now it has the Lebanese army and the guys with th UN uniforms on to hide behind. They are layered up. Exactly what they wanted. Pm Faud is a two-faced prick.

Posted by: BIRDDDOG at September 26, 2006 7:34 PM

freewoman,

There is a big difference between peace keeping and peace enforcement. Peacekeepers are welcomed by both sides and just stand watch as a neutral party. Peace enforcement requires real combat firepower and has the mission of keeping the violent side in check. They expect to fight and bring enough military might to enforce peace (even when not asked). The UN can conduct Peace enforcement only with the military might of the United States and we deploy only under US control never the UN, just occasionally in support of the UN. The UN knew what would happen in Lebanon that is why they did not want US peace enforcement or US control.

Posted by: Ronin at September 26, 2006 8:02 PM

Why worry about all this? The UN will do its usual effective job of keeping the peace. Those awful,bloodthirsty Israelis have nothing to fear. After all, these rockets are merely for defense.

Will we hear of some scandal involving the UN actually arming these guys next? I wouldn't be surprised anymore.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at September 26, 2006 8:15 PM

Gas the mole people known as Hizbollah in their newly rebuilt bunkers. That might avoid all those civilian deaths that Israel always gets blamed for.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at September 26, 2006 8:53 PM

I am a big supporter of Israel and have family thats Jewish so this is meant with no disrespect to the average Israeli, but Israel needs to get its head out of its ass...

They have not gotten their hostage soliders back and hizballah is re-arming right on their doorstep...

Whether that means getting read of Olmert or something else I don't know. I have little knowledge of Israeli politics, but for round two they need military/political leadership that knows what they are doing...

Posted by: adobe at September 26, 2006 9:03 PM

Ronin, maybe we're sending in the wrong guys. We should be sending in peace enforcers. What's the use of having peacekeepers if they stand around and watch (or aid) the muslims rearm, and, let the muslims use their ambulances and vehicles to make runs?

We need people in there , that when hezbos start digging and rearming, they blow them out of the dirt.

Posted by: freewoman at September 26, 2006 9:13 PM

How does one propose to affect a regime change in Syria and Iran?

Regime change in Iraq has cost the US hundreds of billions, lives, good will of the world, mired us forever and produced nothing except a recruiting station and training ground for Jihadi's.

Now if the west and Bush had the will to play whack a mole with Jihadis, and could actually make a dent in the population of Jihadi's it might make sense, but to play whack a mole with Jihadis MEANS, Requires, necessitates that they start here at home.. and lots of luck, the Jihadi's err Muslims are able to cow the government (not hard considering that the family fortunes of Bush and the Saudis are intertwined, and that the bin Laden family financed his first business (Arbusto)...

So how does one affect regime change? Is it the job of the U.S. to change regimes or invade countries to protect Israel? I think not.. if Israel and it's supporters want regime change, then they should affect themselves..

Meanwhile Islamofascist theocrats are given warm welcomes in the White House and share the stage with President Bush.. and I mean al Maliki, Hamid Kharzai and Pervez Musharaff.. Bush's "allies" in the war on "terror" are heads of states of Islamofascist theocracies (full blown or quasi).

Rots of ruck

Posted by: Nariz at September 26, 2006 10:08 PM

freewoman, you are starting to sound like me. This fight will not end with words although it might start that way.

Posted by: Ronin at September 26, 2006 10:23 PM

The idea that war is to be prosecuted without recourse to attacking civillians is foolish, ahistorical and counterproductive. It only leads to yet more rounds of fighting and potentially even more deaths.

A well -phrased description of historical reality. Quijybo.

If Israel could make it absolutely clear that the civillian populations among whom the Jihadis proliferate will be destroyed utterly, the Jihad will quickly cease...

But, so sadly, this is not an option given the sensibilities of visual media (McLuhan) and the Marxist proclivity of the MSM (the dumbass Tim Russert, the dip Katie Couric, the turncoat Jew Wolf Blitzer, et al)... the truth on this situation will not be able to thrust through the thick-sac membrane of the Islam Fictive Reality that envelopes the Leb-Israel border.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at September 26, 2006 10:34 PM

ww2 was ended with the usa dropping the bomb on japan maybe maybe its time the jews made some hezala la and the pigs leppers and onkiers glow in the dark

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at September 26, 2006 11:27 PM

There can never be peace in the middle east because islam is fundamentally opposed to the existence of a Jewish state, or any non-muslims state for that matter. So either Israel must go, or the muslims must go. If Israel goes, there still will be no peace as the muslims will just fight with themselves. So the solution to bring peace is for the muslims to go. All one billion of them.

The question is, how much is peace finally worth and does islam, in its doctrine, allow for the suicide of the ummah if the Jewish state is an eternal fact? In otherwords, what is more important in Islam: Ridding the world of Jews, or not continuing in a world where Jews are an inescapable fact?

Since islamic doctrine dictates that muslims must love ideals more than life itself, then the latter is the solution to the problem. The ummah must bow out of this world. It is the only honorable thing to do.

Posted by: August22 at September 27, 2006 12:22 AM

Give them all the sheep in Sheepbaaa Farms and maybe they will just go away!!

guide inside

Posted by: guide inside at September 27, 2006 12:57 AM