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Ameer Ali touches the Islamic third rail -- but this subject must be broached if anything effective is ever going to be done about the violence inspired by the words and deeds of Muhammad. From The Australian, with thanks to Ronin:
A LEADING adviser on Islam, Ameer Ali, has attacked Muslims who "blindly" follow their faith and fail to question the veracity of the Koran, saying that even Mohammed had "flaws".The chairman of John Howard's Muslim advisory board yesterday warned that Islamists would continue to breed jihadis unless the Koran was "reinterpreted" for today's society.
He also said mosques were increasingly being used by imams to deliver sermons that were not open to discussion.
Dr Ali said the majority of Muslim clerics had for centuries imposed a "literalist" teaching of Islam, telling their followers that deviating from the written message would ultimately lead to their admission into hell.
"The times are changing and with the change of times, you also have to reinterpret the Koran," he told The Australian.
"Because if you believe that it's a book for all the times and all the nations, then that book must be yielding new meanings.
"There are verses about slavery, and the Koran says you must be kind to the slaves. So are the Muslims saying we must have slavery to be kind?
"The jihadists are interpreting the Koran literally and that's the problem ... Popular Muslims, because of their lack of knowledge about religion, are vulnerable to these sort of teachings."
I do think a retreat from literalism is the only hope for the creation of any genuinely and lastingly moderate Islam. Some commentators point to the fact that for centuries -- notably, although not universally, in central Asia, Eastern Europe, and West Africa -- jihad supremacism largely lay dormant and even dropped out of the Muslim consciousness. But simply to point out that that happened is not enough anymore, precisely because Wahhabi and Iranian Shi'ite recruiters are going into those countries and using chapter and verse of Qur'an and Sunnah to teach their Islam to these cultural Muslims. So for those cultural Muslims, and for any true moderates, it's no longer possible simply to ignore those jihad verses. They have to be explicitly rejected, and a non-literalist Islam constructed.
But also because of the mainstream character of literalism within Islam, this will be very, very difficult. Watch and see, for example, what kind of reception Ameer Ali's words get.
Posted by Robert at October 3, 2006 7:57 PM
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Whoa! THIS is what we need more of from the Muslim world! I just hope nothing happens to this guy so he can (hopefully) get others to go along with his line of thinking and implement some badly needed change.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at October 3, 2006 8:23 PM
To do away with the literal interpretation you have to rewrite the thing,Im sure they will soon understand it is better to just kill this guy.
Posted by: KAOSKTRL at October 3, 2006 8:31 PM
Kia ora Robert
When I first read this article I though "Al hamdulilah" finally some of my co-religionists, particularly those who hold influence are beginning to realise that Muslims need to commence some serious internal conversations on reform, but now that reaction is tempered.
While I have all the time in the world for Dr Ali, sadly according to the article:
"Dr Ali called for Hezbollah to be removed from the Government's terror organisations list two months ago, saying they were freedom fighters defending their country against Israeli invasion".
That does not make him a terrorist, or a jihadi, but I will certainly approach Dr Ali cautiously. I plan on contacting him today to discuss his work.
Cheers
Thomas
at October 3, 2006 8:39 PM
A LEADING adviser on Islam, Ameer Ali, has attacked Muslims who "blindly" follow their faith and fail to question the veracity of the Koran, saying that even Mohammed had "flaws".
I nominate this for "Understatement of the Year".
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 3, 2006 9:11 PM
Re: Prophet not perfect, says Islamic scholar
"The times are changing and with the change of times, you also have to reinterpret the Koran," he (Ameer Ali) told The Australian.
1) Absolutely. However, the Koran, unlike the Old Testament, is going to be a tough reform problem because its words are considered to be direct dictation from God. It's not the Gospel according to Mathew, or an inspired story such as Joshua.
There's not much room for dismissing parts of the
Koran without having to dismiss it all. That's one of the reasons why the Islamic world is so spastic in the face of what they sense is the necessity of reform. By claiming that the Koran is a perfect dictation from God, Mohammad created a rigid structure that does not bend against the winds of change. Islam may finally collapse like the Twin Towers because of its rigidity.
2) "Show me a perfect man and I'll show you a monster" someone once said. There are no perfect men. God made us very human and the more we realize our petty flaws the more we wonder about God. How does God put up with us?
at October 3, 2006 9:13 PM
An Imam actually feels that Mohammed is not the perfect man.
This is happening in Australia for this is where Muslims are finding that Aussies are not caving in to demands from Muslims. In fact it is the other way round, as this clearly shows.
The central problem still remains. What if this is just a ruse so that Muslim immigration can continue. Once a near majority is achieved, Muslims will simply revoke all understandings with the Kuffar, and implement the full Sharia.
Posted by: DP111 at October 3, 2006 9:18 PM
This is a very good sign, but it is early days as yet. He still supports hizbollah, for starters, as Haidon mentioned above.
I hope he goes and buys Robert's new book - that would be an even better sign!
Local paper 'blog has a section for comments.
Posted by: Gramfan at October 3, 2006 9:33 PM
By claiming that the Koran is a perfect dictation from God, Mohammad created a rigid structure that does not bend against the winds of change. Islam may finally collapse like the Twin Towers because of its rigidity.
Posted by: Frank at October 3, 2006 09:13 PM
Let's hope we all live to see that.
I will add that if this is truly what Muslims believe then there is a major problem. Since the Koran was in Arabic when God dictated it then it's reasonable to say that any translation from Arabic is less than perfect. Anyone who's tried learning a foreign language knows how things can get lost in the translation so one has to wonder how far from perfection a Koran in English, Russian or any other language really is. Plus the Arabic of today might be somewhat different than the Arabic from the time of the Koran. Is it not reasonable to conclude that unless one is fluent in old Arabic today's Muslims aren't really what they claim to be? If that's the case then true Islam has been dead for quite some time.
at October 3, 2006 9:35 PM
It is deeds that matter, not words. We do not have the luxury of waiting for reform, because if we do we will be on death's doorstep and the reformists will already be past that threashhold.
Again, I say to all of you: having read the Qur'an, although not nearly as knowledgeable of that tradition as Robert is, Islam is the result of a ruthless man who sacralized the savagery of the Bedhouin culture. Allah, or al illah, is an anthropomorphism. It is very, very difficult to reinterpret or rewrite that sort of thing, since the hermeneutics could just as easily be coaxed out of a sociopath on a psychiatrist's couch.
at October 3, 2006 9:43 PM
I once read a Hadith where the Prophet unwittingly intervened in the pollination techniques of the date palm. The result was a dramatic fall in yield....whereupon he declared that he was indeed imperfect "in secular matters."
What a guy.
Posted by: Cornelius at October 3, 2006 9:44 PM
I salute this guy, pretty cool I'd say.
Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at October 3, 2006 9:53 PM
Show me a perfect man and I'll show you a monster.
Frank, may I present to you Mohammed?
For he was, and posthousally still is, the perfect monster.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at October 3, 2006 9:58 PM
Maybe God is saying to Muslims "hurry up down" to a different world than the 7th and 8th century. You may have just provided the window of opportunity to interpretation.
Kidding aside-it's going to be very tough to say God did not mean what He said in dictation in the Koran. Sharia law is not negotiable, and the order to kill the unbeliever is a direct order from God as per the Koran. (Bin Laden probably would agree with me on this before he ordered me killed.) The Old Testament books are considered inspired by God, so it's flexible and open to interpretation and Judaism has adapted to changing times. It's going to take some real creativity to make Islam as flexible as Judaism, to make Muslims as creative as Jews.
Posted by: Frank at October 3, 2006 10:02 PM
Alarmed Pig Farmer-
Thank you. You made me laugh a belly laugh.
Posted by: Frank at October 3, 2006 10:04 PM
You're welcome.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at October 3, 2006 10:20 PM
It is intersting that on this site and others many "compare" and contrast the Bible with the koran.
Yes, Christianity and Judaism have evolved a lot, but it is sobering to remember that the Ten Commandments were always there.
I have always thought it silly to encapsulate the Old Testament as merely "an eye for an eye". It simply means like for like and may or may not have negative implications.
(You steal my goat - I will steal yours???)
Shame old mo never took any notice of Moses,or Jesus, but they are claimed as prophets of islam.
They sure have a long way to go!
Posted by: Gramfan at October 3, 2006 10:20 PM
There is a movement in Indonesia called the Liberal Islam Network that is trying to follow what they call "the essence of the Qu'ran" rather than the literal translation of the text. It can be found at http://islamlib.com/en/page.php
For me, as a minister here in Indonesia, it is a positive step in the right direction for Muslims and Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. to better co-exist in the same society and it's refreshing to have Muslims that will have an open dialogue rather than force textualized Islam down your throat by likes of Abu Bakr Ba'asyir and his lot. Am I skeptical that it will work here in Indonesia. I have reservations still. It's up them and the success of their education program. I know that no matter what progress is made, Muslims will still look at us as second-class citizens here in Indonesia. Such is the nature of the beast. If they are successful then at least the major persecution and church burning/bombing will have stopped and the doors of dialogue are open.
at October 3, 2006 10:21 PM
Quite pathetic. Here is a muslim who describes another muslim who was in his time criminally ill, a murderer, thief, ransacker, rapist, brute, racketeer, and a narcissitic warlod, as merely "less than perfect".
Really?
No, Mother Teresa was less than perfect. Everyone else is highly flawed. General Patton was a tough SOB, Hitler was an anti-social warmonger, but Mohammad was the devil incarnate.
That such a muslim prophet was "less than perfect". Oh, what a brave review. What a damning judgement. Only from the mind and lips of a muslim, can the devil personafied; murderer, thief, and rapist, be described with the same language that you could use to describe Mother Teresa.
Posted by: August22 at October 3, 2006 10:21 PM
This guy better watch his back. I believe there are some Muslims who claim Mohammed was sinless and ascended to heaven. He might have a problem convincing those guys, especially if they are the "What? How dare you say Islam is violent. We will kill you for saying that!" kind.
Posted by: non-redneck at October 3, 2006 10:34 PM
While I do not agree with the oft-repeated idea that the Old Testament is as amoral as the Quran, it does have some stunning whoppers. The reason Judaism is a moral religion is it has been reinterpreted. The Talmud and not the Old Testament is the moral and intellectual foundation of modern Judaism. Islam needs something like it, though I do not see a clear path to it. Maybe I'll start proselytising among Muslims by getting them to read Talmud.
Posted by: Quijybo at October 3, 2006 10:41 PM
this guy does not go far enough, since he supports the hizbos, he is quite flawed in his thinking, that murdering terrorist can openly kill innoncent civilians. but with his call for saying mohummad is not perfect big deal, muhammud was a child rapist, murdering monster, who the heck wants to follow in those footsteps. any sane person who looks up mohummad's life will not want to emmulate him or his cult of islam.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at October 3, 2006 10:41 PM
APF-
If we were perfect we would not need each other and we would not desire something greater than ourselves. All our attempts at perfection on earth are a kind of idolatry that leave us in a rage or despair in our personal lives, in religion or political systems.
I haven't a clue what the answer is-but I'm sure it's not in the dogma of Lenin, Hitler or Bin Laden. (BTW, I don't think God dictated anything to Mohammad either.)
Posted by: Frank at October 3, 2006 10:44 PM
Ameer Ali's attempt to whitewash Hezbollah, including his mischaracterization of the Lesser Jihad against Israel as a "resistance" movement, is far more telling than his tentative statement of the by-now absolutely obvious. Not "perfect"? That simply will not do. And Infidels should not be lulled or placated in the slightest.
Posted by: Hugh at October 3, 2006 10:47 PM
Taquia pure and simple, with a shiny veneer of well-crafted kitman. Never a trust a moslem!
Just how many centuries do you all need to learn that lesson. Aren't thirteen and one-half centuries enough for you all.
Do I, or Robert, or Hugh, or Marisol, (not that I am equating my poor endeavours with their's - merely I am using a rhetorical device) really have to rehearse, yet again, the last one-thousand-and-fifty-odd years of history?
The cult of islam is incapable of reform as it has demonstrated an uncountable number of times over the last 1.3+ millenia. The presence on this site of rational and reformed moslems does not indicate a rational and reformed islam. The presence of such people, and I hope that they are welcome, merely indicates that there are rational and reasoning people everywhere - even within the islamic death cult. That they should be encouraged and supported goes without saying; that they will succeed in changing the barbarism that is, and always has been, the devil worship that is islam is much more problematic.
Remember, people can find the true God of Love even in the most dark of circumstances. Perhaps that is what has happened to these enlightened moslems - the God of love has heard their cries and opened their hearts and minds. Good! But also remember, not one of them has left the hatred, the violence, the horror, the sheer disgusting, inhuman belief system that is islam; not one of them has renounced the evil that is islam; not one of them has had the courage - the guts - to formulate a new message of love for him- or her- self. They still worship in the mosque. They still perform the hadj. They still read the spiritual pornography that is the koran. They still, above all else, identify as moslem and so they remain a prey to all that is anti-thetical to us - our freedoms, our religions, our philosophies and, indeed, our very lives. Spontaneous jihad exists - we have seen it many times - and until such time as these reformed moslems leave the nauseating death-cult that is islam and formulate a truly new spirituality - based, of course, upon their experiences of islam, as well as upon their experiences of us - then I, for one, will not, for one iota of time, suspend my critical faculties.
Blinded by hope you tread to your doom unresistingly. At least have the sense to see what you are doing and to resist the siren songs of such as Dr. Ali who has a long, long way to go before any freedom-loving person could trust a word that he utters.
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 3, 2006 10:48 PM
Yawn !
Posted by: arjun.sevak at October 3, 2006 10:48 PM
Dominic,
Brilliant post. Agree with you.
at October 3, 2006 10:50 PM
arjun.sevak/
Thank-you. You are too kind.
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 3, 2006 10:55 PM
Islamforlosers wrote: the Koran, unlike the Old Testament, is going to be a tough reform problem because its words are considered to be direct dictation from God. It's not the Gospel according to Mathew, or an inspired story such as Joshua.
There's not much room for dismissing parts of the
Koran without having to dismiss it all.
How true. You are exactly correct. Islam is based upon the false belief that Muhammad received a direct revelation from the Archangel Gabriel and this divine message became transcribed into the Koran- because Muhammad was illiterate.
To a faithful Muslim, rejecting the Koran is the equivalant to rejecting Allah and his directives which are fully manifested in the Koran.
Posted by: Johnathan at October 3, 2006 10:59 PM
Johnathan/
Your link from your name isn't working - well, at least, not for me.
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 3, 2006 11:02 PM
Actually, "Frank" wrote that. Thanks anyway.
By the way, I agree with your analysis as well as Frank's.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 3, 2006 11:03 PM
Watch and see, for example, what kind of reception Ameer Ali's words get.
In other words guess how many death fatwas will be issued.
Inovation in Islam is a rigidly enforced concept. I have read fatwas where the Imam goes so far as to say that celebrating an individual's birthday is a sin. This is why the hijab rules are still enforced as they are for both men and women. (Yes, there is a dress code for men.) Instead of realizing that the goal is to resist temptation, even being tempted in Islam is a sin in some circles.
That would be too Christian-like to preach that being tempted is not a sin. It would be too Christian-like to preach that wudu is only physical cleanliness, etc, etc. Preaching Islam in the context of and as applied to the 21st Century is innovotion. Preaching that Muslims and non-believers are equals is innovation.
It'll never work.
Posted by: Pelayo at October 3, 2006 11:04 PM
If we were perfect we would not need each other and we would not desire something greater than ourselves. All our attempts at perfection on earth are a kind of idolatry that leave us in a rage or despair in our personal lives, in religion or political systems..
Hanging out with a lotta Catholics, Lutherans, Hindus, and Confucians (don't think I know any Buddhists, but I mind my own business, so I might know some but not know it)...... I don't sense any rage among us infidel folk.
By stark contrast, the Moslems I see, imported into America by the Teddy Kennedy INS and on the Marxist dole with 2 - 5 gubmint checks per month, are petty much always angry, scowling and demanding.
As a fallen Christian, I have had despair in my personal life, but I have never attempted perfection on earth. Believe me, I know. I've got an aunt who's a retired nun and fist cousin with whom I grew up who's a priest in Tennessee.
I have no rage, cuz operating against an ideal model ain't idolatry; to aspire to an ideal is simply to try to do your best and to improve the lot of humanity.
This is a concept that absolutely incenses Moslems. Islam is not about betterment, it's about control, about devolution of humanity.
Like a wife-beating husband, Ibrahim Hooper towers over a cowering Tim Russert, his jowls jiggling in fear of Islam, with our collective fate hanging in the balance.
Thank you NBC. Great job there.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at October 3, 2006 11:10 PM
"Show me a perfect man and I'll show you a monster"
Snow me a perfect farmer and I'll show you a man outstanding in his field.
Posted by: Pelayo at October 3, 2006 11:19 PM
Alarmed Pig Farmer, you are so right on the money about the idolatry of demanding perfection of ourselves AND EVEN OF GOD. Perfection is a trap. I figured this one out even before I was a Jesuit seminarian. We are not here to be perfect. We are here to simply love one another, work, enjoy life, and try to make life better for others according to our ability to do so. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Our God is so opposite of Allah or al illah in every conceivable way that anyone who prefers Allah over the God of Jesus of Nazareth is truly a disturbed person. Control freak. Sadistic. Egotistical and violent.
I see nothing attractive or redeeming in Islam. They use the words "Merciful, forgiving, and compassionate" to describe Allah, but they are empty words, since Allah is not any of those and his followers have no incentive to even find out what those mean.
at October 3, 2006 11:24 PM
Pelayo/
"I noted one odd saying of Lamb's that 'the last breath he drew in he wished might be through a pipe and exhaled in a pun' "
(Macready, 'Journal'. 9th, Jan. 1834. Charles Lamb, 1775-1834.)
"A man who could make so vile a pun would not scruple to pick a pocket."
('The Gentleman's Magazine' [1781] p.324 - Editor's note to the page.)
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 3, 2006 11:31 PM
Well, at least it's a small step in the right direction. If Islam is reformable (big IF i know) it certainly won't happen overnight.
We can encourage such things without losing our resolve to confront and defeat the zealots, millions though they be. One good crushing defeat and the millions will flutter off like leaves in October.
"This is happening in Australia for this is where Muslims are finding that Aussies are not caving in to demands from Muslims." -- DP111
Good point. A bit of rationality is peeking through in the land where demands and threats don't work. Gotta Love the Australians!
Posted by: alexon at October 3, 2006 11:53 PM
Fred's analysis is correct, and coincides with that of Pope Benedict, who in a conversation with Fr. Fessio, said that the Koran is almost impossible to revise due to its nature... being dropped from the sky from Allah.
Unlike the Bible, which is God revealing Himself through the writings of His creatures, we have a Koran which is just dictation. Different ball of wax.
Will be very difficult to "reinterpret".
Posted by: atheling at October 4, 2006 12:02 AM
DP111 asks:
What if this is just a ruse so that Muslim immigration can continue?
Any genunine reformation project in a 1,400-year-old political ideology-cum-religion as intransigent, as reactive, as violent as Islam will indubitably require a massive internecine conflagration that will make the current Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq look like a walk in the park.
When those fireworks begin in earnest, we will know that those Muslims ostensibly pushing for reformation are not sh*tting.
Posted by: Charles Martel at October 4, 2006 12:08 AM
Maybe he read Robert's newest book on Muhammad and realized that the prophet had some flaws after all....
Posted by: alexon at October 4, 2006 12:21 AM
Hey Arjun, glad to hear from you again.
Dear Dominic, According to the islamic texts, Taquiya is only verbal & cannot be written. If this islamic scholar has written it down, its not taquiya. It should be from the heart. However, How do we know if what he says come from his heart? The element of doubt is there.
2 weeks ago, I was approached by some Muslim scholar wannabe & openly criticise hinduism, 4 of them leaving me arguing with me.
I said, listen, The quran was compiled 19 years after mohammad died & even his wife testified that some verses are missing (especially the adultry section). & it was clearly written & compiled by MAN.
However, The mahabaratha was said to be written by God. What else you want more?
This made them pissed & argue on the my point.
My second point & im really tired, as they said we pray to idols & circle around it.
I said, Praise Vishnu, Praise Allah, We are all praying to 1 god!, They cant believe it!
I caught them by supprise & claimed them as the world's no1 Pagan. I further explained that they were doing the same to the black rock in kaba.
So whats the difference? I asked, At least I dont brag & force religion & politics to someone.
They walked away more confused than ever & I have not seen them again.
So, Theres no need to talk about Mohammad as this was talked centuries ago, wont work. There are even claims that Ayesha was 12 when she got married. They constantly rewrite history to feel better.
Posted by: tjwork at October 4, 2006 12:31 AM
I believe that significant apostasy is far more probable than a reinterpretation of Islam. Therefore, we have to keep up the pressure on these people and not let up. We have to take it to them: militarily, intellectually, economically, culturally, and scientifically/technologically. As the drumbeat of defeat and desolation sinks in on these people, they will realize that Allah does not exist and will apostasize. Every victory they achieve, even if it is fabricated through propaganda, keeps the illusion alive. We have to summon our will to disabuse them of it and deal them out of the game.
Those who hang on to the hope that Islam can be "reinterpreted" are playing a desperate fool's game. They want so badly for this civilizational/religious conflict to just go away that they would put us all in peril by holding us back from the task at hand: destroying this totalitarian death cult.
I do not quickly or thoughtlessly toss this out, since I am trained to be skeptical and analytical. But it needs to be said. Allah and Muhammed are evil. They are manifestations of the Devil's attempts to destroy humanity and creation. Atheists and agnostics will be insulted by this language. Quite frankly, I do not care what they think. By the way, I tend, in some ways, NOT to be a conservative or traditional Catholic, although in some things I have gravitated back towards more traditional views. Anyway, if one recoils from using the language of moral categorization, how then can one absolutely refute the truth claims and demands of Islam? Without some kind of religious and moral standard we grope for the ethical justification in fighting against this plague upon humanity.
at October 4, 2006 12:37 AM
And as for 'Thomas' called 'Haidon'. Just use Google - generally and on this site also.
What a master of dissimulation and deceit. What a clever little performing monkey he is. A pat rejoinder to every criticism - 'I don't behave like that, therefore you must believe that very few moslems do' and 'I don't know any moslems who think as you assert' and 'I have dedicated my life to persuading moslems to act properly' and on, and on, and on. The depth of his lies is only matched by the depth of his practised duplicity and consummate skill at bamboozling the poor, ignorant infidel such as you.
But for all his practised taquia, for all his adoption of the nefarious tactics of kitman, one has to remember and one is forced to recall despite oneself and despite his seeming appeal to our humanity - to our beliefs in its rights and freedoms, to our willingness to have and to believe in our pluralistic societies - that the man is still a moslem.
Yes, that's right folks. The man is still a moslem. He still worships at a mosque. He still believes that he should perform hadj. He still believes that islam is superior to all other belief systems. He still believes in the absolute and eventual supremacy of islam and he still works towards that end. That the means he chooses to adopt to achieve his goal seem to us to be reasonable and allowable must not blind you to the fact that this poster is the worst of all possible moslems - a moslem who is prepared to lie to you in order that he can later, and with great pleasure, destroy you utterley.
"In him no goodness lies but all his lies have destroyed his goodness."
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 4, 2006 12:52 AM
"He still believes that islam is superior to all other belief systems."
I don't have a problem with anyone having that belief about their religion. As a (personally crappy) Catholic, I believe that Roman Catholicism contains the full revelation and truth from God, the God of Abraham and Moses, through the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, His Son.
Non Catholics may disagree. A Buddhist may believe his faith is the truth. That's fine with me. I expect him to believe so.
And a Muslim may believe so as well. I don't care.
My objection is their demands for conversion on threat of violence. That is the problem.
at October 4, 2006 1:15 AM
tjwork/
The last time I tried to talk seriously with a moslem about religion I ended up in hospital for three days after he had summoned three friends and they attacked me. You were brave, but stupid. Taking risks like that is silly. Far better to post here amongst friends than risk your life on the street.
Of course, I believe you are correct. Anything that the moslem mind doesn't like about its history it simply either rewrites or 'airbrushes' out of existence. No conversation on a rational level is ever possible with them. It's like talking to children - great fun, but there is no profit in it for their understanding is limited.
Ameer Ali is doing exactly the same thing - he doesn't like what he sees so he will change reality until he does like what he sees - and damn the truth and its consequences. Remember, no matter how much he talks he is still a moslem - a lying, conniving, intellectual cheat of a moslem - not one little bit different from all the other duplicitous moslems who have gone before him. He has just managed to dress up his meretricious stupidities in twenty-first century clothes.
He'll wail a bit about mohammed, beat his breast a little, cry some crocodile tears and then get straight down to the main moslem business of destroying you. With moslems nothing changes and more fool you if you think it can or does.
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 4, 2006 1:28 AM
FredIsinglass:
I recognize that there's a lot of truth in your position. I've become much more skeptical than I used to be about this idea of a "reformed Islam". But I do think its worth considering that given the vulnerability of the soul opening itself up to a process as profound as religious conversion, and the sheer numbers of Muslims in the world, which renders it unlikely that this will be a community prepared to disappear overnight, the possibility of such a reform may be useful at least as a "halfway house" for those in the formerly Islamic world on their way to Christianity or Judaism, at least if this kind of Islam can recognize its relationship with, and debt to, these other Abrahamic faiths.
One possible basis for such a movement might be found in the work of scholars like Christophe Luxembourg, which is summarized in an article called "The Virgins and the Grapes: The Christian Origins of the Koran" at www.chiesa.espressonline.it (its located in the archive on Islam).
The sentiments expressed by Mr. Ali renew my confidence that there may be some reason to hope for this and, if it's so, I think it may be something worth taking hold of. Beyond any geo-political utility, it could be that such reinterpretations of Islam might be a key step in a wider strategy to bring the whole movement firmly into the Judeo-Christian tradition.
Even though I've become progressively less confidant in the notion of Islamic reform, I still haven't ruled it out entirely, and I think that, if it shows any possibility of success, we should all try to hold out for this as an alternative to a debilitating war. Such a war might come in any event, but positive developments in Islam might mitigate it.
at October 4, 2006 1:35 AM
Dominic:
You make the following argument:
"The man is still a moslem. He still worships at a mosque. He still believes that he should perform hadj. He still believes that islam is superior to all other belief systems. He still believes in the absolute and eventual supremacy of islam and he still works towards that end. That the means he chooses to adopt to achieve his goal seem to us to be reasonable and allowable must not blind you to the fact that this poster is the worst of all possible moslems - a moslem who is prepared to lie to you in order that he can later, and with great pleasure, destroy you utterley"
This begs a lot of questions. And even if he does believe that Islam is superior to all other belief systems, so what? You and I are both practicing and believing Catholics and, as such, we both believe the same thing about our faith. Does this mean that we both would seek to destroy all Muslims? Maybe you would, but I would spare those like Mr. Ali unless you or others can prove your allegations against him. The burden of proof is on you, and I'd say it's a heavy one in this particular case.
If we're going to promote war against the Islamic world, let's make sure that it's a just war, not just a random bloodbath. Sentiments such as those you make in your last post could generate the latter.
Posted by: templar at October 4, 2006 1:38 AM
atheling/
Exactly. You have made my main point more succinctly and directly than I did. It is the belief in coercion that is anathema to we western folks. It is my experience that all moslems believe that it is correct to coerce - using violence if necessary.
"I don't have a problem with anyone having that belief [superiority] about their religion.
No, of course you don't. But no moslem could have uttered, or ever will utter, the main sentiment, that you 'don't have a problem', contained in the quote from your post (above) that I have just given here. You have a supremacist belief coupled with a tolerance of others who may think, or believe, differently. The moslem has simply the supremacist belief and conflates that with the way he or she believes that the world must, or should, work. Tolerance of difference has never been enjoined into them as it has been for most Roman Catholics and, indeed, Christians of all denominations and members of almost every other world religion.
Violent, forced conversion is all they know and all they can understand when it comes to oppositional challeges to the moslem world view.
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 4, 2006 1:44 AM
Be warned my beloved umma, a man living in the West has had his mind polluted and has diluted the prophets message, be on guard against the advances of the decadent Western mind-think and fight. allahu ahkbar!! (sarc off)
Some muslims may say that public opinion does not matter when it comes to islam. Yet if one examines the life of the prophet mohammad, one would conclude that he carefully considered public opinion. When he negotiated a treaty with Arabs who were at war with him, he did not insist that his title as "prophet" be placed in the document (this act horrified his companions, to the point where they thought it was sacrilege). Instead, he had his name written as simply mohammad, the son of Abdulla. This placated his enemy and was essential to successfully concluding the treaty, which gave the Muslims an extended period of peace that allowed them to publicize islam. In fact, the opportunity the treaty created may be responsible for islam's existence.
at October 4, 2006 1:59 AM
templar/
I grant you your argument, but I don't have to stand by and see my Church destroyed and my culture and civilisation layed waste by barbarians and barbarian beliefs. I have too much invested in my civilisation not to argue with them every step of the way and too much awareness of history to believe that they mean well towards me and mine.
By-the-way, I do not advocate war excepting as a court of final resort - in accordance with the teachings of our Church.
Tolerant - I can and will be. Foolish - I never will be.
Of course, the seeming rational moslem who may be reaching out must be met in good faith - but Google Ameer Ali, he is not that reasonable moslem. Others, of course, may be. Christ's words enjoin upon us all attempts at peace and reconciliation. I'll go there and I'll explore every avenue. But don't be surprised if my explorations are profitless. This twenty-first century islam does not see the world as you and I do. It cannot, in my experience, and will not, make the compromises that you or I would do. How I wish and pray that it would and could.
I have to end my postings here, I'm afraid, for I have to get some sleep and go to work tomorrow afternoon (this afternoon, damnit!). I'll check in again when I get home but please don't think I'm being rude if I go quiet. God bless you.
Dominic.
Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at October 4, 2006 2:03 AM
FredIsinglas wrote: "Anyway, if one recoils from using the language of moral categorization, how then can one absolutely refute the truth claims and demands of Islam? Without some kind of religious and moral standard we grope for the ethical justification in fighting against this plague upon humanity."
The world must not recoil any further from using the language of moral categorization when addressing Islam. I am delighted that Pope Benedict XVI chose to not recoil from religious dialogue when making valid points in his speech at the University of Regenburg about the moral dilemma that is posed when violence is sanctified by Islam.
Violent jihad can be traced all the way back to Muhammad, the so called "holy prophet" and final revealer of Allah's truth. There are many many direct references in the Koran which advocate using violence to spread Islam. These historical facts are written into the Koran and can be used as an argument to disprove Islam.
If God is holy, pure, and perfect then how can he delight in savage brutality to spread his holy truth upon the face of the earth. This is a major contradiction to God's inherent goodness.
The Pope is completely on the right track. Islam must be challenged from a moral perspective. The dignity and sanctity of the human person must be exalted above religious directives from the Koran which justify using violence as a means to spread terror and convert the world to Islam.
Posted by: Johnathan at October 4, 2006 2:17 AM
Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abd Al-'Aziz: We Will Cut Off Tongues of Those Who Try to Distort Islam With Reform and Progress - They Are Serving the West... http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD130506
Posted by: eloivsdiablo at October 4, 2006 2:46 AM
Hi Dominic:
If I read too much into your earlier words or misrepresented your position I do apologize for that. I certainly do agree with you that our society is threatened and that its too precious not to preserve and fight for. I just want to make sure that if blood is going to be spilt we don't kill the wrong people.
I've done a search for Ameer Ali, but I've found the results a little elusive, hard to find anything that looked controversial, although owing to the lateness of the hour I did not want to examine each result exhaustively, but I may continue this later or if there's anything more specific you point me toward I'd appreciate it. I did however find something at westernresistance.com about how slippery and contradictory his positions can be, so your point is clear.
However, I thinks its worth observing that most people do find it difficult not to backpaddle under pressure, and I know that I've done my own share of waivering on this question of Islam's potential for reform. I'd say that we can afford to accept him at his words with regard to issues like the one at stake in this thread, but we should keep a watchful eye on him and the constituency he represents and make both of them pay a terrible political and public relations price for any duplicity.
By the way, the horrible experience you describe of being attacked by those Muslim brutes is a trauma I would not want to undergo, so I hope my earlier words did not seem too insensitive.
Take care.
Posted by: templar at October 4, 2006 2:54 AM
islam will NEVER reform - if it did then it would not be Islam. I know we would all like to beleive it could and also that this guy is speaking honestly but the most likely scenario is that it is just another smoke screen from the muslim uhmma - we have to go on the history and the history of the last 1400years says the reverse - they will have to be stopped by force - nothing else.
Posted by: johnmac at October 4, 2006 4:22 AM
Assalamau Laikum all,
I have said myself that every verse of the Koran is not true...and Mohd. had some failings....i.e. no way in eternity would I swap places with Aiesha...
Having said that I would say that the Koran sharif is almost perfect...Mohd. is closer to perfection than most...and that's gonna have to do....we muslims need to get over this and get on with it...is it really such a big deal?
Mostly muslims don't complain about reforming the Koran Sharif....there is no need....it is the Kafur who keeps insisting on that....this is why the Kafur is considered to be polluted...what's wrong with you peoples?
That is why you keep writing these books...to force and challenge this perfections...you bring it upon yourselves and then complain...aka the pope.
Posted by: Naseem at October 4, 2006 4:42 AM
Every time I read a post by Naseem, a small part of me dies.
I don't think moderate Muslims are quite so moderate if all it takes for them to become Jihadists is some guy who quotes verses from the Quran.
Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at October 4, 2006 5:00 AM
Oh, I mean that a small part of me dies because the posts are so profoundly stupid, and also badly written. They don't exactly make me want to give up and convert to Islam.
Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at October 4, 2006 5:23 AM
Assalamau Laikum Jesus, Amerikaningermany,
Just what is your fixation in wanting to re-write the Koran Sharif...it is sharif...by name...the honorable...the one true way.
The Kafur has ulterior motives...he is polluted in his thinking. Let me eloborate....
Allah SWT brings all human childrens into the world as muslims...it is a privlidge to be born as a human.
In the womb the child clenches his fists, and cries and kicks...communicating and literally promising Allah SWT of his honourable wishes to follow Islam. "Please Allah SWT...please let me take birth...I promise to follow the way of Islam....you are the one I shall be eternally grateful to".
And so Allah allows it, he/she is born...and as luck (or not) would have it...if born in the house of a kafur...he forgets his promises made in the womb. He is distracted by modernisms, toys, TV/Radio, cars and the Kaufur further polluting him with thanking Jesus for the new arrival in place of Allah SWT.
Kafur parents pollute....they take the child away from (the message of) Allah SWT. This is most important for you to know...you are not just sinning yourself....you are making your childrens sin too....AND it has been from the time of birth.
Just imagine...imagine and think how cyclical this has been ....it is your parents who did this to YOU...gently take it on them...by converting to Islam, persuade them to convert too....save yourselves...while you can, make good on the promises you made to Allah in the womb with clenched fists.
Only you can save yourselves...convert now!
Posted by: Naseem at October 4, 2006 5:50 AM
how poetic naseem .. you'd have to be a dill to be inspired by that.. yawn!
i'm not scared of superstitious nonsense.. i'm my own person.. nothing is willed by a divine anything as far as i'm concerned.. i make my own way in this world..however i'm grateful for the christian pillars of my free society. something you couldn't begin to comprehend, which suits me...
stay a slave.. :)
as an aussie it's encouraging to see the comments on the local blog as well.. i just hope it continues after howard steps aside...weve made the mistake.. we have to contain it.
Posted by: frank_incensed at October 4, 2006 6:10 AM
Dominic,
Thanks for your concern. I do understand the dangers but generally ppl here dont go around preaching. Some smart pants do & WE cant let them make it a habit.
I acted cool & very stupid pretending to understand their religion. I mean, I could argue intellectually for hours but its best to let them beat themselves up. Not because I enjoy arguing but Im attracted to intelligent discussions & meeting a stranger that critises hinduism, is pretty dumb.
He left himself with more questions to answer himself.
Im sorry that you were beaten in your case, & im pretty lucky for now, wont repeat this again.
I had a hard thought about this. How do we beat a group of fanatics who wants to take our rights & liberty? They base their legal views are from the koran. But that means nothing to us. Legally right for them but not for us.
So, the only way to solve this is to reinvent our religions togather. A Sub-divine Inspiration annexed to our existing books.
This will provide legal & religious framework to prepare for the unexpected; A pre-emtive structure.
Im sure many wont agree to me but its just my opinion.
I mean, I had enough seeing celebrated 4 year old muslim girls expressing negative remarks about jews & infedels. Imagine what they will grow up to be.
Posted by: tjwork
at October 4, 2006 6:23 AM
all of a sudden I have a craving for a rack of bar b que pork ribs and a bacon egg and cheese sandwich.
Posted by: exsgtbrown at October 4, 2006 6:33 AM
In truth folks, the only real perfect man is Jesus Christ because he is both God and man and only did good plus He saved humanity from their sins.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at October 4, 2006 6:48 AM
Is this man really any hope for reforming Islam? In our desire to find a reform we must not read too much into this kind of talk at this moment
Posted by: The Pig Loving Maldivian at October 4, 2006 6:49 AM
Could this be a call for reformation, a Muslim Martin Luther emerging.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at October 4, 2006 6:53 AM
Opps, forgot to add a ?
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at October 4, 2006 6:53 AM
Reformation in a faith is a sign of growth. Both the Christian and Jewish faiths have had their reformation periods and even their are still calls for people to reform themselves.
A true faith which does not have a reformation is going to die, period.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at October 4, 2006 7:00 AM
Having read through most of the comments, the words "WAR IS DECEIPT" kept ringing through.
WAR IS DECEIPT.
Islam's bloody history far outweighs the limited examples of 'relatively' peaceful islamic coexistance. And each and every example given above is currently experiencing the violent, intolerant, excreble islam we are all familiar with - because islamic texts remain sacred as the direct word (of the illusion) of god conjured up by a very demented power hungry arab named muhammed.
WAR IS DECEIPT.
Taqiyya, kitman . . .whisper sweet nothings into my ear . . . .BS . . .never never never submit.
at October 4, 2006 7:14 AM
"He also said mosques were increasingly being used by imams to deliver sermons that were not open to discussion."
All the more for justification to monitor mosques and observe who goes in and out.
Several recent hidden camera and audio tapes of these "sermons" clearly show the hate rhetoric being dispensed by Islamic "clerics". The tapes show no discussion whatsoever. The followers are expected to blindly agree and obey. The followers apparently have no mind of their own as they do blindly agree and obey.
Islam is based on blind obedience and submission. The penalty for failing to obey and submit is death. It is a penalty the Muslims have no problem in administering...
Ban Muslim immigration NOW.
Deport all Muslims convicted of any crime NOW.
at October 4, 2006 7:24 AM
"Every time I read a post by Naseem, a small part of me dies."
On the contrary naseem crystalises the problem - if she is a moderate muslim, whatever the f** that means then it is self evident that there can be no reasoning with them, no discussion will bear fruit, there will be no room for compromise.
They KNOW that, they may have abondoned all reason when they followed Muhhamed but at least they know what they are.
It is up to us, the west , to have such clarity of purpose - if we do then they will be defeated and in a couple of hundred years they will be spoke of in the past tense but if we dont it will be us who disappear into the mist. Though I dont think for one second that we shall fail to rise to this current challenge - when we have had enough of their BS we shall solve this problem
at October 4, 2006 7:49 AM
Hugh,
Thanks for your post!I don't buy it either.
And also thank you Dominic for your posts!
Naseem,,,get over it - none of us is stupid enough to convert to islam!
Paganism is better than islam and that's a big thing coming from me!
at October 4, 2006 7:50 AM
Gramfan,
I rather see more people come to faith in Christ, but I would rather deal more with a pagan then with a Muslim.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at October 4, 2006 7:59 AM
I think that all of their lies has got it to the pointthat we distruct anything that any Muslim says. If a Muslim told me it was dark outside I would go out and check.
The good news, such a statement as that is treated with suspicion because we have got rather used to Muslims lying all the time.
Wafa Sultan said that it was not possible to reform Islam, it was only possible to transform Islam.
She is one very smart lady and right on the button, I hope that someone in the USA uses her knowledge.
Posted by: Daffersd at October 4, 2006 8:03 AM
Assalamau Laikum all,
extsbrown talks about "more for justification to monitor mosques and observe who goes in and out +
hidden camera and audio tapes in mosques".
What you are talking about here is spying...SPYING is said to be the world’s second oldest profession. The oldest, of course, is prostitution. Every Kafur country spies on others as well as on its own citizens, and has done so ever since the Kafur seperated himself away from Allah.
But by the nature of their secretive work, Kafur prefer to remain in the shadows, inhabiting the grey area of plausible deniability. Once in a while, they will be exposed as they go about their clandestine (and often illegal) tasks, the Kafur are known to squirm in the limelight, like worms when a rock is lifted under the sunlight.
This spying has got to stop. We don't spy you in churches or bhuddists temples....this is an infringement of our very human rights.
Johnmac says "They (muslims) KNOW that, they may have abondoned all reason when they followed Muhhamed but at least they know what they are.
It is up to us, the west , to have such clarity of purpose - if we do then they will be defeated and in a couple of hundred years they will be spoke of in the past tense".
JM...we have not abondoned reason...Mohd. has given the reason for our existance...it is with us from the time we are in the womb..you know this.
Islam cannot die...the faith will simply get stronger when attacked.
However, this is what the Kafur is doing...keeping up the constant pressure through books, media bias, technolgy development, blasphemy of the prophet and Allah and general denegration of muslims tied to Islam.
Know this....your foolish tactics make Islam stronger.
Some foolishly attack this spying with violence...so go ahead and kill them...you are doing us all a favour...we don't want those lunds either.
Instead slow and steady growth amongst the kafur is the key to success in Dar-al-harb....only that even here the muslim must remain close to Allah...and this is where the mosques come into play. Keep the mosques clean of violence...muslims do not dirty the house of Allah...the Kafur will give you more money to build bigger and better mosques in their own backyard with this simple doctrine.
Keep it clean, keep it simple...have faith in Allah ...this is the magic of Islam.
Posted by: Naseem at October 4, 2006 8:16 AM
"Know this....your foolish tactics make Islam stronger. "
Posted by Nassem
Well,,,actually Naseem,,a few years ago that may have been true. However, your co-religonists have made such idiots of themsleves that they don't need any help from the west to make them look like the sicko's they are!
Even some of my indifferent-to-politics friends are seeing the light.
Muslims killing muslims, muslims killing infidels,muslim trolls on the 'net, muslims going ballistic over cartoons, muslims going nuts about the Pope,,,must I elaborate further?
bigcatgirl13106 Mega ditto!!
at October 4, 2006 8:23 AM
Naseem is one of the most enlightening contributors to this website. There were those who thought she should be banned. They see that they were wrong.
Posted by: Hugh at October 4, 2006 8:37 AM
"
JM...we have not abondoned reason...Mohd. has given the reason for our existance...it is with us from the time we are in the womb..you know this."
Naseem, when we talk about reason we are obviously talking about different entities.
The "reason" I mean - is the reason that allows us in the west to understand the world that god gave us - to discover all the incredible things that exist in this universe and consequently to develope:
Modern health care - medicines - treatments that can save the life of a baby or a grandmother.
Scientific wonders - like space travel - wireless communications - the internet - nuclear power (and weapons)
Modern societies that are and will in the future allow us to live an ever more fulfiling life.
What "reason" do you people have - NONE of the above - if your child is sick and needs help it will die unless you come to us for help.
The mobile phone in your pocket - its ours - you would still be using pigeons to communicate if it was not for us.
In short you people with your very own version of "reason" have added nothing to the sum total of human advance. Your "reason" is actually the opposite - its superstition and backwardness - that maybe ok for you but we beleive in a diferent god - a god who put us here to discover all these great things - what did your god put you here for?
Repent naseem there is still time come over to the light dont go to the darkness!
Posted by: johnmac at October 4, 2006 8:51 AM
I agree hugh - keep naseem here - she is a timely reminder!
Posted by: johnmac at October 4, 2006 8:54 AM
Assalamau Laikum Johnmac,
Good to talk to you...arrogant smartass that you are though. You say "The "reason" I mean - is the reason that allows us in the west to understand the world that god gave us - to discover all the incredible things that exist in this universe and consequently to develop".
You then talk about scientific wonders mobile phones...tell me which of these inventions do we NOT have in Pak. We do not invent them because we don't need to...you do this for us.
In trying to invent, you have lost track of time and with it developed the arrogance to forget about your God...you are a Allah forsaken and faithless people. You are immersed in modernism, convenience and obesity...and that makes you weak.
On the otherhand, not inventing leaves us time for prayer and essentials. We are an Allah loving and Allah fearing peoples and therefore strong...Allah will provide...we have faith...you can see what inroads Islam is making Dar-al-harb...and Inshallah soon we will all learn the peace Islam has to offer...you only have growing Islam pains ...stop fidgeting and all will be well.
Posted by: Naseem at October 4, 2006 9:07 AM
Sorry, but Ameer Ali is two-faced. He warned against "youth violence" when Howard and another government official called on Muslims to integrate and accept Australian culture.
Posted by: Terrahawk at October 4, 2006 9:07 AM
Sorry, I don't trust him. He's on this advisory board of Howard's. It's a pretty important position for a Muslim wanting to get an 'in' with the government. And when you're 'in', you can start to influence things, ask for concessions and privileges over and above the rest of us. To the benefit of Islam's infiltration into our society and lives, and to the detriment of Australia.
Ali's well-known for constantly pushing for religious vilification laws in other states, and federally - claiming this would prevent 'Muslim clerics AND preachers from Christian and other religions from openly advocating hatred'. Yeah, right! Like Christian and other religions openly advocating hatred is the problem these days! Pull the other one, sly Ali.
His push for thought control laws received a cold reception from Howard. Ali obviously knows Howard's no self-loathing pushover dhimmi when it comes to Islam, based on Howard's comments on Muslims needing to fit in. So Ali knows he needs to back off a bit and tread slowly. Slower than he's been treading before. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.
Posted by: feralee at October 4, 2006 9:09 AM
"Good to talk to you...arrogant smartass that you are though. "
Why thank you naseem - likewise - sometimes we are annoyed most by our own qualities that we see in others!!
You say that you dont need to invent - there is no need to discover the wonderous world that we live in and that you would prefer to live life more spiritully - well that of course is your choice and I would not argue with it but if you intend to follow your doctrine and the dying words of your prophet - to spread Islam by force until the whole world is under Allah - then you better come with more than spirituality as our desire to invent HAS given us more than just that - we have some powerful toys that in the end , if push comes to shove will settle this 1400 year old argument!
Posted by: johnmac at October 4, 2006 9:25 AM
Martin Luther found most of his inspiration for taking the Church to task from the Letters of Paul: our scriptures (of course, given the time and context those same scriptures were literally interpreted). I would submit to you that what is happening within Islam right now is precisely a Lutheran renewal of Islam. For a couple of centuries Islam backslid into "moderation" (suspension of jihad, among other things). Islam is currrently reforming, just not in the direction we would prefer it to go. They are going back to their sources.
Our Protestant Reformation did not involve sophisticated, critical hermeneutics. They involved going back to the texts themselves. Calvin took it even further than did Luther.
Roman Catholic and most mainstream Protestant Churches are the ones who have recently integreted modern critical text analysis into biblical studies, in order to distill the living meaning from those texts - not taking all of those texts literally. We are mostly non-literalists now, because modern science and our awareness of cultural symbols, metaphors, and meanings have compelled us to mine the truth in a more sophisticated manner.
This is not happening in Islam right now. I do not think it will happen, since to do that would completely blow apart the view of the Qur'an as a dictation - an "Ipsissima Dei."
at October 4, 2006 10:05 AM
Commn Naseem, johnmac,
Your discussions are not bring us any good.
Naseem has every right to be here supporting us either way as your islamic sect will soon disapear if things are not done. You know this well.
John is placing some sense of the muslim world participation. Life does not revolves around islam, but every thing else as well.
Now, can any of you guys provide a solution to this crisis?
Just talk, no discussions.
Posted by: tjwork at October 4, 2006 10:12 AM
Special Dispatch from MEMRI
-Saudi Arabia/Jihad & Terrorism
October 4, 2006
No. 1305
Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abd Al-'Aziz:
We Will Cut Off Tongues of Those Who Try to Distort Islam With Reform and Progress - They Are Serving the West
To view this Special Dispatch in HTML, visit: http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD130506
The following are excerpts from a speech by Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abd Al-'Aziz, which aired on Al-Majd TV on September 25, 2006.
TO VIEW THIS CLIP, VISIT: http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1283 .
at October 4, 2006 10:15 AM
Naseem wrote: " make good on the promises you made to Allah in the womb with clenched fists."
Your claim that clenched babies are making promises to Allah in the womb is rather amusing. I can't believe that you would make such an absurd claim. But on the other hand, nothing that you write here is based on rationlity.
My clenched fist in the womb was done as a promise to RESIST Allah and Islam, not fight for him.
Posted by: Johnathan at October 4, 2006 10:21 AM
Assalamau Laikum all,
I said "I have said myself that every verse of the Koran is not true...and Mohd. had some failings....i.e. no way in eternity would I swap places with Aiesha..."
The vile toe-rag Fedup said in return "just for the newbies... this muslim person NEVER admitted the above, but as any other muslim she's always spreading lies.
As usual Fedup is spreading lies about me. Please read http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012348.php (july 25th 2006) in my reply to Zathras I wrote the following:
Assalamau-Laikum Zathras,
For the record I am not programmed...I am a member of a faith ...like bigcatgirl or Mike_W (both of whom are christian).
Those two are examples of who would not give up a faith under any circumstances...catgirl for example foolishly believes that black christains are gonna come & save the west...
Likewise I belive in (the early) suras of the Koran and tenets of the Ahmadi belief.
I also belive that some suras of the Koran are false..and some others just plain silly. On the whole though there is enough for a powerful sense of belief and that Islam is cosy & rosy and well worthy of belief.
Fedup himself has been exposed as the dirty chroistian liar that he is...in your face fatboy.
Posted by: Naseem at October 4, 2006 11:24 AM
Naseem is not a person, she is -- like all faithful Muslims -- an automaton.
A person is an individual, born with free will, conscience, and the ability to discern -- an ability that for most human beings, grows more acute, more powerful with age and experience.
But not for faithful Muslims.
Muslims are stuck in a mobius strip treadmill -- a computer program that simply twists, executes and loops, twists, executes and loops, twists, executes and loops over and over and over again.
A computer program that fails to accept any interruptions, any further input, any new information. A computer program that quite simply, cannot learn.
In faithful Muslims, the program was imbedded first by parents, then by imams, and finally through multiple readings of the master automaton manual -- the Qur'an.
It is impervious to change or correction because it contains explosively-charged defense mechanisms that serve to attack, filter, rationalize, and reject -- despite the overwhelming cognitive dissonance created by observable facts any child can discern.
However, this is what the Kafur is doing...keeping up the constant pressure through books, media bias, technolgy development, blasphemy of the prophet and Allah
Naseem is an intelligent and articulate automaton, but an automaton nevertheless. Like other faithful Muslims, she has surrendered all the gifts that God has given her: individuation, free will, creativity, the impulse to question -- and seek answers through exploration, work, and discovery.
What an incalculable loss of potential for the human race.
Posted by: Charles Martel at October 4, 2006 11:29 AM
I think it is one of the many faces of Naseem who is posting...multiple personalities, every one of them a muslim...
Ameer Ali, Haidon, Naseem and all these other 'moderates' and 'reformers', all have the same thing in common...they are infected with the demon Allah.
As long as they remain infected, they have no choice but to do the bidding of the demon, his historical representative Mohammad, and modern clerics. Apostacy is ridding oneself of the demon. As long as Allah lives, the infection will spread...and we worry about bird flu.
Making the Quran flexible for adaptation to modern times (A 'LIVING'Quran), reminds me of Algore's 'living Constitution'. A document that alters everytime the wind changes direction. I dont think Allah is open to having his book tampered with by mere mortals. If you think he is cranky now, just start messing with his book...
at October 4, 2006 11:42 AM
Re :'Assalamau Laikum all'
Just a quick question:
Regarding this greeting, I was told that a Muslim should never greet a non Muslim with this phrase, as it was detrimental to Allah to do so.
Is this true or did this Muslim who told me just make this up (along with loads of other stuff) ?
Posted by: D'Albini at October 4, 2006 12:14 PM
Assalamau Laikum 'D'Albini,
You ask "Regarding this greeting, I was told that a Muslim should never greet a non Muslim with this phrase, as it was detrimental to Allah to do so."
You are correct in your interpretration in all ways but one. You can also use it to greet peoples who are potential converts to Islam.
It is an excellent tool for dawa...and since this site is dedicated to the workings of Islam...each and every reader and postee is a potential convert to Islam including the esteemed Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald, so I always use it......and eh! "welcome to Islam"
I trust this answers your question!
at October 4, 2006 12:23 PM
"There is no allah but humanity, and mohammed is the greatest false prophet all of the time."
Every moslem can quit from islam cult of the death and join the humanity.
Welcome to humanity...
Posted by: Mohammed_Pedophiles_Club at October 4, 2006 1:03 PM
No matter how flowery or tricky the talk gets, Naseem, I doubt that Robert or Hugh will convert soon. I doubt that they are willing to become infected with your demon. I doubt that they will forget everything they know and replace it with psychotic Islam. Islam will convert very few people who actually know about Islam. It can only attract the unlearned, uninitiated, and the unwashed masses.
Robert and Hugh dont qualify...Allah does not like converts who wash regularly...
at October 4, 2006 1:22 PM
Naseem, I don't want your "peace" and I don't want your religion/ideology/government called Islam.
Posted by: Terrahawk at October 4, 2006 2:21 PM
If anyone is still reading this thread - here is the local reaction.
I have copied and pasted as the link had other op-eds as well.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20525659-7583,00.html
Editorial: Brave stand on Muslim honesty
October 05, 2006
Open dialogue on Islam is in everyone's best interests
ISLAMIC scholar Ameer Ali has shown great courage and done Australia a big favour in opening debate on how best to interpret Muslim faith in the modern world. The immediate reaction of Australia's Islamic leaders to Dr Ali's controversial comments is as predictable as it is disappointing. But the fact that it has been framed as a debate, as opposed to mindless violence, says a lot about Australia and its 300,000-strong Muslim community that is to be celebrated. As chairman of Prime Minister John Howard's Muslim advisory board, Dr Ali has a special responsibility to promote cross-cultural dialogue and understanding. The opening-up of discussion on the literal interpretation of Islam is particularly relevant to the continuing struggle to challenge extremism in which faith is all too often being used to justify violence.
In an interview with The Australian's Richard Kerbaj, Dr Ali said Islamists would continue to breed jihadis unless the Koran was "reinterpreted" for today's society. Dr Ali's standing cannot be easily dismissed. He is a doctor of economics who works at Murdoch University in Perth and is writing an academic paper entitled Closing of the Muslim Mind. In opening discussion, Dr Ali has again raised some of Islam's most controversial issues, which have already sparked widespread displays of anger and retaliatory violence around the world. He questions the centuries-old literal interpretation of the Koran, and says it is "rubbish" to think anyone who challenges the text will be doomed to hell. Dr Ali said Mohammed should be seen as human and imperfect, and he criticised Muslims who reacted violently towards depictions of the prophet, while aspiring to emulate his appearance. He said God would not judge Muslims on the length of their beard, but rather on their character, knowledge and contribution to society.
All perfectly reasonable sentiments, it would seem. But this has not stopped Dr Ali from becoming an instant target. Australia's Mufti, Taj Din al-Hilali, immediately criticised Dr Ali for daring to speak out, suggesting that he find another occupation. Sheik Hilali said anyone who said the prophet was human and had flaws could be renounced from the faith. He challenged Dr Ali to withdraw his remarks or be barred from standing at any religious ceremony. Sheik Hilali said Dr Ali's comments were worse than those by the Pope in his Regensburg lecture - in which Benedict XVI quoted a medieval text to discuss violence, religious conversion and reason - because they were his own. Other Muslim leaders have gone further. Muslim Youth leader Moustapha Kara-Ali argued that the scriptures should be translated literally and that Dr Ali's comments were like the publication of the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed, and the Pope's Regensburg comments.
Thankfully, the response of Australia's Islamic leaders has been rhetorical and not vengeful, in stark contrast to the response overseas to publication of the Danish cartoons and the Pope's speech and the treatment of French philosophy teacher Robert Redeker, who has been forced into hiding for linking Mohammed to violence.
Dr Ali can expect to pay a price for his courage. Hardliners will attempt to undermine his credibility, accusing him of selling out his religious conviction to curry favour with the Government. Far from it, Dr Ali is to be congratulated for his courage in promoting honest discussion that is in the interests of Islam, its followers and the Australian community.
Posted by: Gramfan at October 4, 2006 3:52 PM
Re: You can also use it to greet peoples who are potential converts to Islam.
So, you are disrespecting Allah then.
No converts here.
Shocking!May God forgive you!
Go say 10 hail Marys to wash away your sin!
Don't worry, I can say that to greet peoples who are potential converts to Catholicsm.
Posted by: D'Albini at October 4, 2006 3:58 PM
"In the womb the child clenches his fists, and cries and kicks...communicating and literally promising Allah SWT of his honourable wishes to follow Islam. "Please Allah SWT...please let me take birth...I promise to follow the way of Islam....you are the one I shall be eternally grateful to".
What complete and utter rubbish! Naseem, you are insane.
Posted by: alexon at October 4, 2006 3:59 PM
"In the womb the child clenches his fists, and cries and kicks...communicating and literally promising Allah SWT of his honourable wishes to follow Islam. "Please Allah SWT...please let me take birth...I promise to follow the way of Islam....you are the one I shall be eternally grateful to".
Don't state that too openly, the Pro-Life brigade may stop protesting outside clinics.
Wacko!!!!
Posted by: D'Albini at October 4, 2006 4:26 PM
This spying has got to stop. We don't spy you in churches or bhuddists temples....this is an infringement of our very human rights...
by Naseem
Naseem, it's ironic you say anything about infringements on human rights. Let's see, muslims kill anyone and everyone, blow them up or beat them up, or just saw off the heads of innocent people and animals. Muslims perform clitoridectomies on innocent girls....what about their human rights? You muslims force people to become muslims...where are their human rights? What about slavery? Where are those slaves human rights? muslim males force women and girls into a lifeless and pathetic excuse for a life.. where are their human rights?
To think, you are worried about muslims being spied on.
at October 4, 2006 5:15 PM
First to Naseem, Mohammed is nothing more than a false prophet who was also a dirty lecherous old man, a murderer and a thief. That is not perfection, except in the wicked sense. It is as if Mohammed made a deal with Satan to gain control of the world. There is only one who was the most perfect man in the world: Jesus Christ.
It is Jesus Christ who is the Messiah, who came into this world so that we would be freed forever from the slavery of sin. Mohammed, on the other hand did the work of the Antichrist, because he worked to enslave mankind, so that once more we would be slaves to sin.
I will choose following Jesus Christ any day over following Mohammed the false prophet.
Second to Dominic: I like most of what you say. I am a fellow Catholic and I have no intention of allowing something as corrupt as Islam to overcome my Church.
Third to Frank: I am a fellow Australian. I too, am heartened by the comments that I have seen.
I say beware the words of Ameer Ali. He was taken to task by our own Archbishop of Sydney, the Rev. Cardinal George Pell. It is true that this man demanded that Hezbollah be taken off the banned terrorist list, claiming that they were freedom fighters. What utter BS (mushroom fodder). The Hezbollah are not and never have been freedom fighters. They were set up by the Iranian revolutionary guard, and their purpose is to enslave Lebanon. John Howard is correct to ignore such demands.
However, Ameer Ali is more moderate than some others, such as Sheik Hajlay (sp). He is another who speaks with a forked tongue and who must be watched closely. They pretend to be moderate, and they represent Muslims by being a part of the working party that advises the government. However, where they might say one thing to the government, they say another thing in private, or in the mosque. The only plus about these men is that they do make the effort to reach out. I cannot remember who the religious leader was, but there is one who has in the past made amends for what has occurred through Muslim violence and vandalism. I am thinking of a situation a few years ago when a church here in Sydney was destroyed and the perpetrators were Muslims. This religious leader apologized and made amends by standing in solidarity with the congregation. However, there are others who act like snakes, that is they get themselves on these advisory bodies, and they say one thing but they mean something else.
Posted by: Maggie4Life at October 4, 2006 6:02 PM
First to Naseem, Mohammed is nothing more than a false prophet who was also a dirty lecherous old man, a murderer and a thief. That is not perfection, except in the wicked sense. It is as if Mohammed made a deal with Satan to gain control of the world. There is only one who was the most perfect man in the world: Jesus Christ.
It is Jesus Christ who is the Messiah, who came into this world so that we would be freed forever from the slavery of sin. Mohammed, on the other hand did the work of the Antichrist, because he worked to enslave mankind, so that once more we would be slaves to sin.
I will choose following Jesus Christ any day over following Mohammed the false prophet.
Second to Dominic: I like most of what you say. I am a fellow Catholic and I have no intention of allowing something as corrupt as Islam to overcome my Church.
Third to Frank: I am a fellow Australian. I too, am heartened by the comments that I have seen.
I say beware the words of Ameer Ali. He was taken to task by our own Archbishop of Sydney, the Rev. Cardinal George Pell. It is true that this man demanded that Hezbollah be taken off the banned terrorist list, claiming that they were freedom fighters. What utter BS (mushroom fodder). The Hezbollah are not and never have been freedom fighters. They were set up by the Iranian revolutionary guard, and their purpose is to enslave Lebanon. John Howard is correct to ignore such demands.
However, Ameer Ali is more moderate than some others, such as Sheik Hajlay (sp). He is another who speaks with a forked tongue and who must be watched closely. They pretend to be moderate, and they represent Muslims by being a part of the working party that advises the government. However, where they might say one thing to the government, they say another thing in private, or in the mosque. The only plus about these men is that they do make the effort to reach out. I cannot remember who the religious leader was, but there is one who has in the past made amends for what has occurred through Muslim violence and vandalism. I am thinking of a situation a few years ago when a church here in Sydney was destroyed and the perpetrators were Muslims. This religious leader apologized and made amends by standing in solidarity with the congregation. However, there are others who act like snakes, that is they get themselves on these advisory bodies, and they say one thing but they mean something else.
Posted by: Maggie4Life at October 4, 2006 6:03 PM
--- StillF*****UP
You call those who suffer from Down's Syndrome a cheap form of humanity.
You bigoted insolent fool.
Friends of mine have a son who has Down's Syndrome.
A few years ago he saved three young children from a house fire.
He is a hero of the first category.
Your pitifull rantings show you as spiteful dope.
Religion holds no great sway over me.
But, given what I have read on this thread I would far prefer to stand next to Naseem than a low brow bigot like you.
at October 4, 2006 7:47 PM
Naseem on muslim inventions...After informing us that they have all the modern conviences in Pakistan that were invented and provided by the west, so muslims dont need to invent anything...
Then she says:
"On the otherhand, not inventing leaves us time for prayer and essentials. We are an Allah loving and Allah fearing peoples and therefore strong...Allah will provide".
I suggest that Naseem start praying fifty times a day as Mohammad first ordered. If you pray fifty (50) times a day, your Allah loving and fearing will increase ten fold and so will your welfare payment(jizya). You can spend so much time praying that infidels will have to spoon feed you, and whipe your posterior. That is the ideal situation.
Catatonic muslims in deep Allahic prayer, spoonfed by infidels. There are no catatonic jihadists...yet, but we are working on it...
at October 4, 2006 10:57 PM
Ahh, people, reforms take one step at a time. Democracy in Britain went from a couple hundred thousand people voting to a 4 million voting base over time. Significant change takes a long time. But can the world wait?
Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at October 5, 2006 1:16 AM
Yes Freedom, the Down Syndrome comment was pretty ignorant, not to mention completely off-topic, but that doesn't mean you need to cozy up to Naseem over it.
It may or may not be the case with FedUp but I'd bet that some of the most rabid rantings in these comment sections are posted by political enemies pretending to be anti-Jihadists in order to discredit us.
I do, however, think Naseem is for real. Her regular presence here is probably a cry for help.
Posted by: alexon at October 5, 2006 1:39 AM
Assalamau Laikum all
Freedom ...I love you....you rock my boat....thank you ...shukria...for giving that fu***d up lund Fedup a couple of mightly deserved blows.
alexon...ofcourse I am for real. My plea id not so much for help...it is that Ahmadi Islam is understood...that and the lonliness that I feel after the death of my shor Anwer.
Posted by: Naseem at October 5, 2006 4:12 AM
Well Mr. Ameer Ali, do you know about the Koran well ? Looks like a non-Muslim has to teach you about the "prophet"'s words that the Koran was a revelation from God and that it is immutable.
There is only one thing that is going to happen in the near future. There will be World War III (the war has started, only the climax of it, I mean) between the Muslims and the rest of the world. Islam will be wiped out, I am sure.
This will of course, involve severe hardships for the people, but then, every birth is preceded by a labour.
Posted by: rajagopalan at October 5, 2006 8:38 AM
Freedom, StillFedup didn't mean these people were born with Down's Syndrome. These people have been inbreeding for centuries. They don't have the best medical care or nutrition. And due to probably their own inbreeding, don't have the intellect to care for or raise a child properly. (islam doesn't help there either) Big difference in Down's and inbreeding. Down's can happen to the couple with the best of health and the best of education. I know of a couple that had a child born with Down's and they are both lawyers.
Posted by: freewoman at October 5, 2006 10:13 AM
Are you "StillFedUp" because you were blocked from this website as "FedUp" and had to reregister? Just curious.
P.S. My daughter has Down's Syndrome and you couldn't find a more beautiful soul.
at October 5, 2006 8:16 PM
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