Jihad Watch: An olive branch, or a call to surrender

October 27, 2006

An olive branch, or a call to surrender

Last Saturday I received an email from Aziz H. Poonawalla, a blogger at Dean Esmay's site, with the subject line "an olive branch." Mr. Poonawalla was alerting me to a post he had written at Esmay's site entitled "the jihadwatch," which he was characterizing as that olive branch.

When I received the email I was at the Objectivist Conference in Boston, where I spoke along with Daniel Pipes, Flemming Rose (the Danish newspaper editor who published the Muhammad cartoons last year), Professor John Lewis, and others. Then I took off for Norfolk, Virginia, where I gave a half-day introduction to Islamic jihad theology to the Tidewater Joint Terrorism Task Force. After that I went to Dallas, where I spoke to a Lumen Institute group Wednesday night. Only now am I getting a chance to respond -- which I am doing at this late date for two reasons: because I have had many other exchanges with Esmay (see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here) and I believe it would be churlish not to respond to what is being characterized as an olive branch, and because it is certain that many people of good will believe the things that Esmay and Mr. Poonawalla apparently believe, and they may find this response helpful.

The funny thing about being a muslim in America is how you often feel like you're sidelined from the debate.

Mr. Poonawalla has no reason to feel sidelined as far as I am concerned. In fact, as I posted here last June, he and I had been enjoying a cordial and mutually respectful email exchange when I asked him politely to explain why he had apparently intended to mislead Dean Esmay's readers into thinking that my Arabic rendering of my own name was erroneous when it wasn't, taking advantage of their ignorance of Arabic to portray me as an ignorant buffoon. Then Mr. Poonawalla grew silent. Esmay, meanwhile, has gleefully referred to me as "Roobart Sbunsar" quite often since then, and apparently Mr. Poonawalla has never taken him aside and explained to him about p's and vowels in Arabic. Sidelined? Only by his own choosing. I would have been happy to continue our exchange, and to post his explanation of the transliteration deception, if he had cared to offer one.

In any case, in his "olive branch" Mr. Poonawalla goes on to praise Dean Esmay (whom he praises for his "jihad," while I am on a "crusade" -- loaded and significant word choices in Mr. Poonawalla's circles), and then comes to this:

Robert Spencer is on a crusade of a similarly noble intent. That is, to identify the rhetoric of the extremists within Islam and put it on naked display. In so doing he provides a benchmark against which other behavior and rhetoric can be compared. The purpose of this is to stand guard against the rise of such similar rhetoric here at home and thus prevent the ideology of bin Laden from gaining a toehold.
However the problem with both of these causes [that is, Esmay's and mine] is that they don't recognize or honor the other.

This reminds me of when Ibrahim Hooper called me a "hatemonger" on MSNBC, and Keith Olbermann told both of us, "Don't call each other hatemongers." Well, I hadn't actually called Hooper a hatemonger. Nor had I ever said one word about Dean Esmay, or even heard of him, very long before he started calling me a liar, an ignoramus, a traitor -- and since then, in carpet-chewing, eye-socket-popping rage, a man without conscience, destined to die unloved and unmourned, and to fry in hell. Among other things.

Now I am told that we don't "honor" each other, and that we should. Search for "Robert Spencer" and "Roobart Sbunsar" at Dean Esmay's site and you will find a rather steady torrent of abuse and assaults on my honesty, my intelligence, my integrity, my patriotism, my good will, and more. In his relentless attacks Esmay has never accorded me even a modicum of simple human courtesy or good will, as he did to Michelle Malkin and Rusty Shackleford when he attacked them (on false pretenses, I should add), and he has transgressed his own self-righteous exhortation never to assume that one knows the motives of one's opponents. Should Dean Esmay and I "honor" one another? That is not up to me.

Because Robert makes no effort to say to his audience of muslims, "they are more alike us than they are different. In fact, they ARE us", his site fills with the most egregious and xenophobic bile. Robert, like Charles Johnson of LGF, prefers to take no responsibility for the contents of his comment threads, but the problem is that his crusade cannot be separated from the miasma that lurkes beneath it. Simply put, the crusade of Jihadwatch becomes, because it has no emphasis on humanizing muslims, a witch hunt.

I don't accept this characterization on many levels. In the first place, Muslims don't need to be "humanized." They are human already. I am not sure what Mr. Poonawalla means when he faults Jihad Watch for having "no emphasis on humanizing muslims." Does he mean that we never post about Muslims doing good? But that is false. Do we decline to cover Muslims fighting against the global jihad? Of course not. As I pointed out to Mr. Poonawalla's fellow Esmay blogger Ali Eteraz here, we frequently cover Muslim activism against Muslim oppression. I noted two posts for Mr. Eteraz: this one from the early days of the site, recounting the travails of a member of the Islamic Iran Participation Front, a group that opposes the mullahocracy; and this one about Muslims opposing the Talibanization of Somalia. Search the archives and you'll find many more. Perhaps Mr. Poonawalla would be surprised to see posts like this one, or to learn that Tashbih Sayyed, editor of Muslim World Today, is a member of the Jihad Watch Board of Directors. As I have said from the beginning of Jihad Watch, "any Muslim who renounces the ideologies of jihad and dhimmitude is most welcome to join forces with us." But to my knowledge Dean Esmay has never troubled to tell his readers such things about Jihad Watch.

It also does not help that Robert routinely ascribes the CAUSE of Islamic extremist ideology to the faith of Islam. That the extremists use this or that Qur'an verse for their justification is not surprising; but were their holy text the phone directory would they act any differently? Throughout history every holy text - and even some non-holy ones - have been used to justify all manner of evil. Let us be frank about personal responsibility here: the CAUSE of the extremists' actions is their own souls and their own dark ambitions. Not their vision of Shari'a for its own sake, but rather the benefits that they imagine such to accrue to them in this life and the hereafter. THAT is what drives them and it is what has driven their predecesors of all faiths and none throughout history's bloody sweep.

All right. Here we come to the heart of the matter. I am wrong in ascribing "the CAUSE of Islamic extremist ideology to the faith of Islam," when in fact, according to Mr. Poonawalla, this ideology could have come from anywhere, even the phone book, and after all, the holy texts of every faith have been used to justify violence.

Yet there seems to be a bit of confusion here. In the first place, it is the "extremists" themselves, not I, who "routinely" ascribe "the CAUSE of Islamic extremist ideology to the faith of Islam." I have posted hundreds and hundreds of examples of this in the three years of Jihad Watch, and have many, many times asked moderate Muslims for some compelling Islamic refutation of the jihad theology. None has ever been forthcoming -- even from Mr. Poonawalla, who promised me in those cordial emails some anti-jihad material from Al-Azhar but never quite got around to getting it to me.

With jihadists daily recruiting for their ranks by appealing to the Qur'an and Sunnah, this is a grave and glaring omission. And it is not my doing. For it is not a matter of the jihadists using, in Mr. Poonawalla's words, "this or that Qur'an verse for their justification." Contrary to Esmay's repeated contention that finding justification for the jihad in the Qur'an is a matter of "cherry-picking" a few verses here and there that Muslims otherwise do not understand in a violent way, the jihad in order to establish the supremacy of Sharia is taught not only in the Qur'an, but in the Hadith, in the words and deeds of Muhammad, and by all the schools (madhahib) of Islamic jurisprudence.

Jihadists are well aware of this, and work hard to situate "the CAUSE of Islamic extremist ideology" within "the faith of Islam." See, to take just one of many examples, this article I wrote a couple of years ago about a theological exposition by Zarqawi. In it, I wrote this:

Zarqawi’s tape amounts to a direct frontal assault on the glib and still oft-repeated assertion that the 9/11 attacks are condemned by Islam because Islam forbids the killing of innocent civilians. It is urgently to be hoped that all those courageous groups that identify themselves as forces for Muslim moderation...construct responses to Zarqawi that reason from Islamic principles....With this audiotape, Zarqawi has seized the intellectual and theological initiative within the global Islamic community, and reinforced the jihadist claim to represent “pure Islam” — a claim that has proved to be a potent recruitment tool among Muslims worldwide, as well as here in the United States. If moderates do not or cannot take that initiative from him, the consequences could reverberate across the world for decades to come.

Did I write Zarqawi's exposition of Islamic theology? Or any of the other similar writings by jihadists? Did I ask Zarqawi to invoke Muhammad's example when justifying his beheadings in Iraq? With respect, Mr. Poonawalla's focus is misplaced. He is shooting the messenger instead of dealing with the real problem: the Muslims who justify violence by referring to Islamic teachings, not the one who reports on their doing so -- me. He is asking me either to look the other way when they quote the Qur'an and invoke Muhammad, or else to tell people that they are doing so incorrectly.

Well, it is not up to me to say whether they are doing so correctly or incorrectly. I just report that they are doing so, and show the deep roots of their perspective in Islamic theology and sacred texts. That's just reality. It is up to peaceful Muslims to challenge this perspective among Muslims if they do not wish it to prevail.

What's more, Mr. Poonawalla himself acknowledges that jihadists act in view of "the benefits that they imagine such to accrue to them in this life and the hereafter." Now, where did they get the idea that they would receive such benefits? From the Qur'an, of course, which promises Paradise to those who "kill and are killed" for Allah (9:111), and from Muslim preachers worldwide who invoke that verse and others to justify suicide bombing. Is that not a "CAUSE of Islamic extremist ideology" that is derived from and rooted within "the faith of Islam"? I believe it is. What does Mr. Poonawalla propose we do about this? Ignore it? Deny it is happening? I would rather he and other anti-jihadist Muslims confront and refute it, so as to try to discourage Muslims from having recourse to such actions in the future.

The result is that Robert's readers do indeed come to believe - fed upon a diet of one-sided interpretation as they are - that all muslims are the enemy, potentially.

Of course, I have never said that, in fact, but I have noted that the American Muslim community has made no effort to expel jihadist sympathizers from its ranks, and that some who were apparently moderates turned out to be deceivers. There has been no large-scale, organized effort of takfir by American Muslims: takfir is the process of declaring another group of Muslims to be unbelievers because of their heretical views. Why haven't American Muslims done this for Al-Qaeda, or Hamas, or Hizballah? And in the absence of such an effort, what are infidels to do? I look forward to Mr. Poonawalla's explanation of how non-Muslims in America can reliably distinguish between Muslims who sympathize with the jihad, and may someday act on those sympathies, and those who do not.

The only muslims that become non-threats are those that are externally non-muslim and secular.

That's false also. And I repeat: "any Muslim who renounces the ideologies of jihad and dhimmitude is most welcome to join forces with us."

Hence the popularity of the three Goddesses (Manji, Sultan, and Hirsi Ali) in their circles. Muslims such as myself have no margin for error - the slightest misstatement and we are damned, our motives and intentions pre-ordained. And the times we seek to reach out, we are dismissed as practicing taqqiya or decitful. Isn't it profoundly obvious how such alienation is counter to the self-interest of us all?

Esmay has denounced me repeatedly for taking issue with Ali Eteraz in this post. He has taken this as evidence that when Islamic reformers do appear, I condemn them as deceivers. In fact, you will find no such characterization of Ali Eteraz's motives in that post. But I do point out some rather glaring inaccuracies in his presentation. Why? Because if I can see them, knowledgeable Muslims can see even more -- and this attempt at "reform" will founder. I make no apologies for pointing out such things. Serious Muslims know what their religious texts say, and will not be moved by efforts at "reform" that pretend that large portions of those texts do not exist. Reformers should not ignore, but should refute, the jihad ideology. Why is that too much to ask?

The challenge I pose to Robert then is this: to simply acknowledge the fact that his work has attracted a community of hatred, and that is a problem. And not a harmless one, but rather one that genuinely hinders his very own cause.

Well, it's certainly true that CAIR and others have quoted unhinged comments from Jihad Watch -- which indicates that they can't find the "hatred" they're looking for in my own writings, so they have to resort to trying to hold me responsible for intemperate comments here. But as I have said many times, if you think I agree with the comment, provide evidence of that agreement from my own writings. If you can't, then the comment no more reflects on my own positions than do the comments of the many Islamic apologists and jihad apologists who also post comments at Jihad Watch.

But in any case, a "community of hatred"? No. There are angry people who come here, to be sure. But their anger is not without cause. I think that if Mr. Poonawalla and Dean Esmay had scolded Americans in 1943 for speaking in abusive terms about Germans and Japanese, they would not have found as sympathetic a hearing as Esmay does for his "Islamophobia" charges today. And this constant denial and shift of focus -- the blaming of me rather than the jihadists for using the teachings of Muhammad and Islam to justify their actions -- does nothing to assuage that anger. A "community of hatred"? No. A community of patriots, of lovers of Western civilization and human rights, of people who are passionately committed to defending those things.

In any case, comments are, when all is said and done, unmoderated. I don't have time to read most of them, especially these days, but when particularly abusive ones are brought to my attention, I do remove them. Unlike Esmay, who would not allow Jihad Watch commenters to comment in my defense at his site, I believe in freedom of speech, and that the antidote to bad speech is more speech. And I believe that if comments here offend Aziz H. Poonawalla, he should strive all the harder to eradicate the causes of that anger from the American Muslim community and from the umma worldwide.

Meanwhile, however, Esmay continues his attacks, with a screed against unmoderated comments at Little Green Footballs. Perhaps because I am not directly involved, his characteristic wall-climbing, straitjacket-worthy hysteria is not in evidence (if you like that sort of thing, check out his maniacal anti-Christian rantings in the comments field here), but he does make a number of simply false assertions:

The believer in the Taqqiya Libel against Muslims says that any Muslim can be assumed to be lying to you if you're not a Muslim. They further tell you that any Muslim who expresses hatred of terrorism, hatred of political violence, love for America, or love for Freedom is simply a liar. After all, the Koran "directs" them to lie about these things.
But of course the Koran contains no such direction. Taqqiya is only to be invoked in extreme circumstances, so as to avoid bloodshed and horror. Furthermore, Taqqiya is actually rejected by a majority of Muslims worldwide. Indeed, most conservative Muslim scholars say that "taqqiya" is just code-word for "liar" and that lying is never acceptable under Islam.

Of course, the idea that taqiyya means that "any Muslim can be assumed to be lying to you if you're not a Muslim" is absurd, but aside from that, his assertion that "the Koran contains no such direction" is false. For example: commenting on Qur'an 3:28, the great (and quite mainstream) Qur'an commentator Ibn Kathir says this: if believers "in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers," they "are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda said, 'We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, 'The Tuqyah [or taqiyya, the shielding of what is in one's heart] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'"

Ibn Kathir, a pious Muslim and a renowned scholar whose work has been revered by Muslims for centuries, believes that the Qur'an allows believers to deceive unbelievers. Dean Esmay says that the Qur'an says no such thing, but gives no actual evidence beyond nameless authorities to support his view. And I'm an evil Islamophobe, repeating the equivalent of the blood libel against the Jews (Esmay makes the equation elsewhere in his post), for quoting an actual Muslim source (and I have many, many others that speak in the same vein) that says deception is acceptable, and pointing out that it is quite possible, and indeed probable, that some Muslims in the world today agree with Ibn Kathir. Get the picture?

Esmay also says that "Nowhere anywhere [sic] in the Koran is suicide bombing endorsed. This is yet another Libel against Muslims."

Call the Pentagon, Dean. You also might want to call in the authors of this detailed defense of suicide bombing on Islamic grounds for a little Islamic instruction.

Aziz H. Poonawalla wrote me again last Monday, saying: "Matoko clearly was mistaken, and I'll post ot that effect later. Also, Dean owes you an apology. Which I will make plain to him." "Matoko" is one of Esmay's favorite attack dogs, who doesn't seem to care how wild or inaccurate her charges are. See here and here, and so much for her. But so far no such post has appeared from Mr. Poonawalla. Instead, Esmay today links to a blogger who calls herself "Isis," who includes a gratuitous swipe at me in a post about how people should and should not talk about Islamic terrorism: "Reading Robert Spencer’s latest book or citing 'the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam' does not make you an Islamic scholar." I do not know "Isis" and had never heard of her before this afternoon, but I repeat the request of her that I have always extended to reasonable people, and even to Dean Esmay: rather than simply sneering, please show me where I'm wrong, and let's discuss these issues in a rational manner. But I know: it is easier to throw stones and set up straw men to knock down than to defend one's own position. So I'm not expecting anything.

Esmay, finally, has been spending quite a bit of time today discussing a Muslim soldier who was killed in Iraq, as if his death proves everything he charges about "Islamophobia." I suggest on the contrary that that soldier's memory would be far better served by an honest discussion by both Muslims and non-Muslims of good will of the elements of Islam that give rise to violence and fanaticism, and positive strategies developed for how both groups can work to neutralize this threat. But good will, it seems, is in short supply these days.

UPDATE: A Jihad Watch reader has notified me that Esmay keeps hammering, saying here: "Ditto idiots like Brian Macker who ran around claiming that no Muslim could be trusted until he entirely repudiated Muhammed and repudiated entire swaths of the Koran, and accused any Muslims who disagreed with his interpretations as being liars. Which is also, interestingly enough, what Robert Spencer does for a living." (Brian Macker is or was a commenter at Esmay's site.) Of course, Esmay would never be able to produce any actual statements I have ever made to back up this characterization of my work, but who cares about accuracy when you can puff your chest out with self-righteous rage? For the record, I do not interpret the Qur'an or any other Islamic texts. Never have, never will. I report on their contents, and on how jihadists use them. I ask moderate Muslims to formulate a reponse to those jihadists. And I will not be intimidated by Esmay's rabid fulminations against me, and repeated attempts at character assassination, into stopping doing so.

Posted by Robert at October 27, 2006 5:28 PM
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Comments
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)

This is ridiculous:

"The challenge I pose to Robert then is this: to simply acknowledge the fact that his work has attracted a community of hatred, and that is a problem. And not a harmless one, but rather one that genuinely hinders his very own cause."

How can you acknowledge something that is easily proven false?

It was not Jihad Watch nor Robert Spencer's work which brought to light a community of hatred. It was the blatant disregard for human life by Jihazis on 9/11, along with continuous, "Death to America" chants from Islamic communities that have, "attracted a community of hatred, and that is the problem. And not a harmless one..."

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog

at October 27, 2006 7:14 PM

Your response is fair, reasoned, and adequate to provide anyone who might look back at the exchanges one day context of the relationship. But you have obviously spent some time on it. It seems to me that further engagements would simply add value to Mr. Esmay’s efforts.

Posted by: limes

at October 27, 2006 7:20 PM

Robert, I agree that not all of your readers are rabid islamophobes. Not that I need to tell you. Many of us try to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt (where doubt exists).

I appreciate your long replies to the likes of Esmay. They are quite reasoned and informative. The fact that your detractors do not address the substance of your articles and your extensive references proves that they are the ones suffering from knee-jerk hysteria (while accusing others of the same).

Posted by: Aragorn

at October 27, 2006 7:43 PM

This response was complex and nuanced, while Mr. Esmay ... well, perhaps Mr. E senses the holes in his worldview.

Will Esmay change that worldview or cling to it with anger?

It's hard for us to get beyond the falsehoods of our upbringing.

Posted by: StillBreathing

at October 27, 2006 7:45 PM

Robert your patience is really admireable when dealing with the likes of this Esmay. The only thing
l can say is that they are not ready to accept the truth.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess

at October 27, 2006 7:50 PM

I read over 50% of the Comments at Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch every day, and have done so for at least two years, and they don't strike me as indicative of a "community of hatred". Poonawalla probably has a conveniently yet sincerely elastic definition of "hatred" that compels him to define us this way. Convenient yet sincere, as in "selective conscience"...

Posted by: remote_control

at October 27, 2006 7:51 PM

Freedom of the Press is not free.

Especially if one does not own a news press.

"Never get in a fight with a man that buys his ink by the truckload".

Fortunately for you, Robert, 'Internet' ink is a lot cheaper.

You go, guy!

Posted by: SCV

at October 27, 2006 8:01 PM

I started reading Jihad Watch about five months ago and I also go through a lot of the comments. Although the occasional comment can be quite harsh and extreme, most of the posters seem to have a basic understanding and the common sense to see what our society needs to do to survive rather than live a pipe dream and believe that "if we don't pay attention to them, they'll just go away". It's scary knowing that the left has that naive attitude, and would like to blame the actions of these extremists on everyone else rather than the individuals themselves, despite what history and studies on the religion have taught us.

Every response I've seen from Robert has been calm, constructive, and informative. He knows how to back his facts up with detailed arguments. And it's refreshing to read.

It seems like Dean and Matoko still can't seem to get the grasp on how to properly debate since they always end up resorting to childish remarks and personal insults. An effective argument in a debate is an easy concept to understand for most people. These two sound like a couple of high school students.

Posted by: haffee

at October 27, 2006 8:37 PM

Robert's integrity, good will and his to-the-fact reasoned response are breathtaking. I cannot ever imagine being so persistently reviled and despised and wrongfully accused and yet hold to such a high level of maturity of person. Any sane person or even a decent human being could see who is the one armed with "facts" here and who is just playing hit-and-run like bloguerrilas (blogging guerillas).

Keep up your good work, Robert. Also, could you tell us if the Joint terrorism conference (or something like that) was related in anyway to the military?

Also, Robert we personally would like to know if your efforts at spreading the word have been successful in person (not your awesome books).

Posted by: Tushar Saxena

at October 27, 2006 8:56 PM

Mr. Spencer,

For me, a regular reader at JW/DW, it's obvious that these
engagements with your opponents are a metaphor for the larger confrontation with jihad and dhimmitude which you have nobly labored to have us non-believers understand.

Dean Esmay has repeatedly demonstrated he is not a worthy opponent.
It's time to declare victory and more on.

Your grateful ally,
Malinois

Posted by: Malinois

at October 27, 2006 9:21 PM

It is difficult for me to not get passionately angry when I read these things. I hate seeing falsehoods perpetrated, and especially to see such slander against decent people such as yourself.

But it does no good. I hope that even though you continue to respond to these folks calmly and rationally, that you don't take all these lies to heart and make yourself crazy over it. (And you're a stronger person than me, 'cause I would definitely go crazy!)

Keep focused and keep fighting that good fight. It is not in vain.

Posted by: Mo

at October 27, 2006 9:37 PM

Went to Esmays site...Impression...Esmay is stupidly foul mouthed, and has little of value to say.
Forget him, he's not worth the energy to respond...

Posted by: duh_swami

at October 27, 2006 10:26 PM

I appreciate Robert's work.

About takfir applied to jihadism - the more moderate Muslims repudiating it as not Islamic. I don't see it happening because the more moderate Muslims don't do takfir, in general.

Let me make an analogy to Christian denominations such as Episcopalian or Unitarian. In our day and age clergy or prominent laity in these groups denounce things in Christendom that they don't approve of. But such denunciation is about all they do. Anathematizing such things - sort of the Christian equivalent of takfir - is not something that the more liberal Christian groups do.

That's my idea of why takfir applied to jihadism is not happening (perhaps others could comment). Perhaps if Islam does in general become more peaceful and tolerant of other faiths, a sign of that will be that takfir in general becomes obsolete.

Posted by: Injilguy1

at October 27, 2006 10:43 PM

Dean Esmay needs some kind of help. The man is unhinged and obviously has some sort of vendetta going here. Until he gets the mental help he desperately needs I think he should be ignored.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS

at October 27, 2006 10:46 PM

Esmay has made a deal with the devil.
He hates God with his whole heart, and uses stupid arguments like God is going to send someone's little girl to hell. He doesn't see that Jesus is the "open door" and you have to choosenot to go through that door to be lost. That is why he hates Christianity. He loves and respects the religion of head-hunters.
Like the poster he abused so said, try telling muslims that they are merely wrong, and see what you get.
I really believe he is King Tolerance.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 27, 2006 10:56 PM

BTW Esmay,
Crappy set-up on your site. The side bars crowd out the middle text. You need someone like Charles Johnson to design your site. Heh heh

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 27, 2006 11:04 PM

Robert, Aziz Poonawalla has been a dishonest debater since I first ran into him over a post he made on his blog, where he quoted an unsourced story that said that Israel was developing a "gene bomb" that would target Arabs and not Israelis.

Things went downhill from there.

I doubt you will get the promised posts and apologies. When a person goes so far as to go to a genetic discussion forum to try to get them to say it is possible to develop such a gene bomb (and get royally pissed when I showed up and clued the gentlemen in on what he was looking for and why), he is disingenuous at best, and a liar at worst.

I'm inclined to believe, due to personal experience, the worst.

You're wasting your time trying to get an honest debate going with him, and with Esmay. It's just not going to happen.

Posted by: Meryl Yourish

at October 27, 2006 11:34 PM

Oh leave Messrs. Esmay and Poonawalla alone. All they're doing is practice "mass media reproach," one of the Pillars of Fictive Realities of all types, but especially of the Islam Fictive Reality, which openly procalims the goal of civilizational suicide and the outright surrender of freedom and justice.

Without the tar brush of the mass media, many or most Fictive Realities would be destroyed in five years or less.

The ideology of Islam would take somewhat longer to snuff out, being as adaptable and as intractable as a roach. For example, are right thinking public muzzled by the 6th Pillar of Islam? I think so, given that the most open critics of Islam reside in Secure Undisclosed Locationville.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

at October 28, 2006 12:24 AM

I agree with duh_swami and APF - methinks not only is Robert wasting time on Emsay, but has now spread it out to Eteraz, Mutago (?) and now Poonawala. Who next, Robert - JihadJihad? Shia? Naseem? Mohideen? I don't believe that even CAIR is worth your time.

The believer in the Taqqiya Libel against Muslims says that any Muslim can be assumed to be lying to you if you're not a Muslim. They further tell you that any Muslim who expresses hatred of terrorism, hatred of political violence, love for America, or love for Freedom is simply a liar. After all, the Koran "directs" them to lie about these things.

Assuming that the Quran authorizes Muslims to lie to Infidels about their short/long term designs on Infidels, Infidels can do one of two things about it:

Assume that the Muslim is telling the truth, on the grounds that (s)he is genuinely opposed to the hegemonic goals of Islam;
Assume that the Muslim is lying, on the grounds that telling the truth about it would be like a gang member telling a cop in advance that he's about to go on a heist

Given these two options, on what basis are Infidels expected to prefer (1) over (2)?

Of course, the idea that taqiyya means that "any Muslim can be assumed to be lying to you if you're not a Muslim" is absurd

While this definition of taqiyya itself may well be wrong given the Arabic translation/definition of the word, why is the above assumption that a Muslim would lie about these things absurd? On the contrary, one would think that the idea that a hostile Muslim would be honest about such goals would be the absurdity.

As a result, it's upto Infidels to determine whether a Muslim's condemnation of Islamic hegemony is genuine or fake. Given that reality, why not leave it to Muslims to demonstrate that they aren't hostile by openly apostatizing? Once they do that, it may be fair to expect Infidels to take them at their word. To an extent, even that would be a risk, given Quran 16:106, but at this point, it might be worth 'splitting the difference'. For instance, I'm willing to believe that when Ali Sina, Anwar Shaikh, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat et al say that they no longer believe in Islam and that they are on our side, they really mean it.

But not someone who's still a Muslim. And since when did we Jihadwatchers start respecting Irshad Manji?

Posted by: Infidel Pride

at October 28, 2006 12:56 AM

Mr. Spenser: Thank you for taking the time to post a thoughtful response to Dean Esmay. I agree with you that it is not only not a waste of time but the most important exercise to simply state the reality of what many Muslims are doing and saying in the Name of Islam and its prophet.

Mr. Esmay: Thank you for not giving up. The more yout try to read current events through the wildly inappropriate lens of patronizing white liberalism (as if the Ummah needs your protection), the more you lash out in anger, the more you insult Spencer, the more decent traditionally liberal people you will convert to the logic of Spencer's clear, rational voice.

Mr. Poonawalla: Please understand there are many, many, many people like me who abhor racism and bigotry for its stupidity and cruelty who nonetheless have absolutely zero patience for the Sharia and no faith in the idea of any dialogue with Islam. The traditional and unreformed Islam that is the only Islamic force of any power in the world today has stated very clearly its goals and intentions. If you think the behavior of your co-religionists worldwide has created only reactionary bigots and not thoughtful critics-- WHO NONETHELESS WILL HAVE NOTHING LESS THAN THE FULL CONTAINMENT OF SHARIA WITHIN THE WEST-- you are mistaken. To put Spencer and the majority of his readers in the former category is, again, an error which your friend Esmay has made repeatedly.

Posted by: tokyobk

at October 28, 2006 12:58 AM

"we frequently cover Muslim activism against Muslim oppression. "

Indeed. The people critical of islam are more concerned about islamic human rights abuses and the abysmal status of women under sharia than any of the deniers of islamic violence.

Posted by: Lili

at October 28, 2006 1:08 AM

A second comment is that a good piece of Dean's initial rage has been based on the idea that we should never forget that we have Muslim allies and soldiers, that the star and crescent is one of the approved symbols for gravestones at Arlington, that we have American heores who have fallen on the battlefield defending our country.

Lets leave the debate as to Saudi and Pakistan being allies for the moment.

On the second it is an absurd strawman type argument.

over 50,000 US soldiers fell in Viet Nam. Every single one deserves our respect and gratitude every time we take a breath of free air.

Now, how many of those 50,000 were racists? How many beat their wives? How many were snake-handlers? How many were tax-cheats, copied their neighbor's test in high school? beat their dog? screwed their best friend's wife? How many of thr 50,000 brave American men and women who died in Viet-Nam were athiests? C'mon, how many traitor scum, how MANY F'N G'DMN AMERICAN PATRIOTS HATED ELVIS YOU F'N F'ERS, HOWW MANNYFGUKYKJUHGVJDGJKHDFC? AUIHJHGJHGFHUGF!!!???

Posted by: tokyobk

at October 28, 2006 1:12 AM

...just a note for non-Esmay readers, the last is an attempt a parody. Esmay gets rabid real quick. My serious point is that we honor Americans because they died as Americans. Our Enlightenment allows people form all over to share an equal stake in government. That is what they died protecting, not their particular religion or good or bad personal trait.

Posted by: tokyobk

at October 28, 2006 1:30 AM

Robert...you have them ove a barrel -so to speak-

Insults shot at you - is their best defense - sad to say.

I thank you for the work you do. I call it - "The Sounding of the Trumpets".

Those who are in a sound sleep will hate you for annoying them [you do know this?]

But the solution has yet to be applied.

Taking out allah [exposing him for the insignificant sprit that he is]

Kill him? and the '''''terrorists''''' will cease.

Sheeze....how is that possible? as I witness their arrogance and anger at the sound of the alarm clock?

They don't even refute the facts you present - before biting off your head.

Where does that leaves those who have the will to apply the solution?

Posted by: Beth

at October 28, 2006 1:58 AM

Because Robert makes no effort to say to his audience of muslims, "they are more alike us than they are different. In fact, they ARE us", his site fills with the most egregious and xenophobic bile. Robert, like Charles Johnson of LGF, prefers to take no responsibility for the contents of his comment threads, but the problem is that his crusade cannot be separated from the miasma that lurkes beneath it. Simply put, the crusade of Jihadwatch becomes, because it has no emphasis on humanizing muslims, a witch hunt.

Ah, quite interesting. Jussi Halla-Aho, an anti-multiculturalist/anti-jihadist candidate for parliament in Finland, has received similiar comments from his opponents. In fact, most of the "arguments" againts him are based on what his supporters have said, and not what he has said. I've yet to see anyone quote any of his writings. People use the infallible logic that if a neonazi supports him, then clearly he is also a neonazi, by association.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop

at October 28, 2006 3:21 AM

um - coming from a 12 year old point of view - and their argument for the teachings of beheadings, gang rape, the cutting off of hands and feet, and crucifixions are??????????????????

?????????????????????????

????????????????????????????

Robert? You are a sweethart! A Hero in evrey sense of the Word

They- on the other hand - have no evidence to offer - but their own self-imposed words of wisdom

What fails me - and always will - is their ablility [or ''''''inabilaty''''''] to stand tall to the action of the Koran being placed upon the table of decision.

Robert - I will remember you!

Posted by: Beth

at October 28, 2006 5:42 AM

Taking no responsibility for the teachings of Gang rape, crucifixions, the cutting off of hands and feet , and beheadings - only leaves God with one conclusion:

You have blood on your hands.

So does the conclusion of every decent human being

Posted by: Beth

at October 28, 2006 5:45 AM

We can ALL 'sing' - - - - such pretty songs - such as the one about Robert Spencer supporting the kooks. [SAD SORRY APPROACH I MIGHT ADD - IN THIS DAY AND AGE]

I beg to differ.

But Then again - I sit with those who would be beheaded....

for even thinking such a thing

Such a Nobel Table

Such a Nobel Honor!

"IN THIS WORLD OF NOBEL PEACE AWARDS" - - -

NOT!!!!!

Posted by: Beth

at October 28, 2006 5:53 AM

BOTTOM LINE:

God ALREADY deicided that ALL must vist the grave.

Woe be unto those - who feel themselves worthy of filling them - especially knowing - that their buts are headed for the samke place.....

The Judgment of God - and not mere humans - muslim or not

Posted by: Beth

at October 28, 2006 6:02 AM

First comment post here:

I have read your sites for information, and wouldn't visit a site such as Esmay's under duress. Keep up the good work, Robert - I admire the level of scholarship and integrity you bring to the discussion of Islam in the modern world. I have just been to my local online bookseller to purchase 100 questions and the UnPC guide to Islam (& the Crusades). I know they will be informative and accurate. It's just a pity that they have to be bought online; Local bookstores in Australia frequently don't carry them on the shelves. When I asked if they could order them in, despite being on the catalogue, they were dubious. In their words "No-one wants to read that sort of stuff". Well, I do, and I think that your commenters here also prove that.

AusAutarch.

Posted by: ausautarch

at October 28, 2006 7:00 AM

Mr. Spencer,
I am a retired Special Forces (30+ years) soldier presently training the Afghan National Army in country.
I've spent 20+ years in and about the mid east and Islamic countries/societies.
I am impressed with your scholarly approach to making a point and debating an issue. I am not impressed by those responding speaking in cliches and name calling but I am familiar with the attitude.
Islamic patriarchal society (as you know) does not foster an environment that leads to individual questioning of anything of import. Children are raised to accept and obey (submit)and not to question authority. The family or tribal leaders decision is accepted. To question the 'father figure' is to undermine the system. To question ones faith is to court much worse. As a young Christian I was challenged to question my faith and find the answers as the strength of Christianity can support this. The rote memorization of the Madrassas is the other end of the spectrum.
Do you really expect an individual investigative non Umma approach from your detractors? I've found that even western converts to Islam become immersed in the non invasive attitude of total acceptance and a have a real fear of mentally ingesting what the see and read. I deal with this form of self delusion every day as it relates to the concept of Islam and its reality.
The real fear of the west, to Islam, is the individual approach of responsibility to finding honest answers based on their own documents or practice.
In truth most Muslims here have not read the Qu'ran and only understand a bit here and there so take whatever the local Mullah says as 'gospel'.
I suspect you will never get a 'stand up debate' on these issues as it frightens an 'individual' to separate from the crowd and honestly do this. It is much easier to accept a concept based upon emotion and call names from the crowd.
As a side note; one of the most dynamic elements keeping this society from becoming effective (taking care of their own as in basic life sustaining capabilities), as it is practiced presently, is Islam.

Posted by: prb51

at October 28, 2006 7:38 AM

Cry for Jihad

When ever there is news of any killing or loss of life is involved in some incident. Our media is always ready to see it through the high held prism of ‘Terrorism’. Media services are always very quick to respond and are happy to present that news in the refined crystal goblet of ‘war on terror’.

There are numerable dissident groups, found operating in the world involved in remorseless killing of innocents. But the word ‘Terrorism’ is mostly restricted to single out the Muslims only; and their connection to their religious belief of Jihad.

Term of Jihad is used as a catch word and a quick way of ascribing of any news of killing toward Islam; where as this act may or may not be carried out by some black sheep, found in Muslim world….

But we find that Jihad in Islam is described in a very different way. Jihad is an effort, very earnestly put up by an individual into reformation of ones self or say; striving in the way of God to reform ones inner self to be a better person. In the process, personal reformation takes the priority over reformation of society. Subject of ‘killing of an oppressor’ or ‘killing in defence’ comes at the very last on the list. So in principle, it may not be fair to ascribe any random killing of innocent persons to the religion Islam and malign the Muslims as such.

Any how, in the ‘contest of killing and jihad’, we have to see that:

a. Is Jihad fostered and cherished by Muslims only or do we also find some thing equivalent and comparable of Jihad which tantamount to the same meanings in other religions?

b. Are the people leading their lives in other religions i.e. in, Christianity, Judaic, Buddha or Hindu societies have, some how thoroughly been humbled and emasculated or say, removed or civilised to that degree that they don’t have any urge left to think of killing any one even when they are oppressed or in their self defence, (even as a lost resort).

c. And what are the actual facts and practices found on the ground. Where thousand and thousands of people are being put to death, their properties are destroyed and children and women being massacred and maimed. Is this being done by Muslims only? If not, then it is being done by whom and on what account?

The killing prescribed as a lost resort in Islam in defence or to raise arm against the oppressor, is too mild and looks very peace loving than the commandments found in other religions.

Surprisingly, commandments found in other religions are much harsher.

For Instance the Christianity prescribes an instant killing of a person who worships any other god, other than the Lord. (See the links at * & **).
'Eye for an eye’ and ‘killed with the sword to be killed by the sword’ and like wise versions found in other religions are the subjects to be pondered upon, through colour less glasses only.

Today we find that in Middle Eastern countries where, predominantly Muslim nations live are blazing in wars.

The entire Middle Eastern society seems to be engulfed in an atmosphere of anarchy and violence. Killing and destruction is prevalent every where.

Who is the oppressor here? Who is the invader? Who is being killed and who is at rampage to kill?

Why we hear a cry for Jihad from the activists (decedent groups) in the Middle Eastern world!? Where as the rulers of the area prefer to remain mute, submissive?

What is the real cause or motivation behind this controversial out cry of extremism?

We all know that leading organisations like, Hamas and Hezbollah that we find in Middle East are the product of continuous oppression, deprivation and persecution spread over; a many long, long years. They are the resistance organisations, fighting for their freedom and liberation of their home land and preferred way of life.

Spirit behind their cause and motivation is worth exploring.

History of freedom is universal and full of writings, written with the flowing blood of freedom fighters. Every sacrifice where the blood flows is counted a positive step forward and glorifiable in the eyes of martyrs by all the nations; till the time the oppressor surrenders.

Denial of freedom is death. Means of survival are limitless.

The civilised world is to think cool for this and respect and reach for the sacred cause behind each suicidal fatality.

Islam is peace loving religion and follows the laws of nature. Nature does not accept any suppression. For any suppression forced beyond the acceptable limit. You are bound to get equal and opposite recoil action.
--------------
Links recommended:
*The Bible: The Lord here commands the destruction of all the places where people worship other gods. There appears not a shred of religious tolerance here! ...
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htmihad is never said to be doomed or

**The Bible: Condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. ... When he's done with the killing everyone will know that he is the Lord. ...
skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html -condemned.
----------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 28, 2006 8:32 AM

Islam is peace loving religion and follows the laws of nature. Nature does not accept any suppression. For any suppression forced beyond the acceptable limit. You are bound to get equal and opposite recoil action.

In one breath you claim to be peaceful and then issue a threat.

Surprisingly, commandments found in other religions are much harsher.

Perhaps the muslims should take these words as a warning. Instead, they use them to justify their own killing. It is important for the muslims deflect reponsibility away from themselves and onto the victim. Even if they have to twist another religion to achive their ends. Pure usurpation.

Posted by: mtriviso

at October 28, 2006 8:47 AM

Robert, you have superhuman tolerance and patience. How on earth you can reason at such length with neandertals like Poonawall simply exceedes my comprehension.

A deep bow of gratitude to you for what you do.

Posted by: atanu

at October 28, 2006 9:33 AM

Hi mtriviso,

Islam allows its followers to fight aggression in their defence and to ward off the oppressors. There are clear instructions to follow:

In Koran chapter : 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse : 192
“And slay these transgressors wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worst than slaying. And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital for the disbelievers.”

Beauty of Islam is that it recognises and confirms all the previous denomination of God’s religions (in their original forms) and their prophets. These earlier founded religions are in fact stepping stones to reach the summit of Word of God selected for the mankind---in form of Islam.

Our arrogance and ignorance may leave us in our anguish wandering but matter of fact is that Islam is very well a filtered and refined product of God Almighty. It is very graciously bestowed to Muslims for their delivery as blessing for the mankind to foster peace and harmony in the World. If its God’s design, it will prevail and excel above all the previous denominations. Muslim may be resource less (at present) and their state of affairs may be seen very precarious and hope less, but in God, their Lord that they trust, is not resource less.

At the same time Islam respect people of book, Christian, Jews and others very unreservedly. Koran remains the book of guidance and Muslims may not be carrying any kind of animus feelings toward others. For Instance:-

In Koran chapter: 2 (Albaqrah) verse: 137

“Say ye, 'We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all the other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them; and to Him we submit ourselves.”

In chapter: 4 (Al-nisa), Verse: 164.

“Surely, We have sent revelation to thee, as We sent revelation to Noah and the Prophets after him; and We sent revelation to Abraham and
Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his children and to Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave David a Book.”

And in Chapter: 2 (Albaqarah) Verse: 63.

Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 28, 2006 10:55 AM

yes all Islam is good now if the religion could just stop inciting people to crash airplanes into towers and stop cutting off the heads of those "jews and christians" who will also have their "reward with the Lord" for being good people... The truth is wherever Islam lays a foothold its thru WAR and killing those who do not accept Islam or the people of the book TAX to live as second class citizens. I have a Christian Copt friend from Egypt and a secular exmuslim friend from Turkey. They laugh uncontrollably when I tell them so many muslims are angry that we do not see Islam as peaceful anymore.
One of them said "thats because its NOT peaceful".

REmember in Islam your good deeds are weighed against your bads and you get a score so you are not guarranteed 100% to go to paradise UNLESS...(read below):
QUOTES:

I asked the Prophet, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause." (Sahih Bukhari, 3:46:694, Sahih Muslim, 1:149)

"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id Khudri that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said (to him): Abu Sa'id, whoever cheerfully accepts Allah as his Lord, Islam as his religion and Muhammad as his Apostle is necessarily entitled to enter Paradise. He (Abu Sa'id) wondered at it and said: Messenger of Allah, repeat it for me. He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred , and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah! (Sahih Muslim, 20:4645)

The true purpose of jihad, to spread Islamic religion:
QUOTES:

"Allah's Apostle stated-- "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah. (Sahih Bukhari, 1:2:24 [see also 4:52:196])

"It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that he heard the Messenger of Allah say: I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought. And when they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah." (Sahih Muslim, 1:31 [see also 1:130, 1:32, 1:33])

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have. (Sunan Abu Dawud, 14:2635)

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." (Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:65 [see also 9:93:550 and Sahih Muslim, 20:4684, 20:4685, 20:4686, 20:4687])

Those who like to quote:
"There is no compulsion in religion" never mention other lines:

The Prophet said, "A single endeavor of fighting in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it." (Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:50 [see also 4:52:51, 4:52:52, and Sahih Muslim, 20:4643])

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah guarantees him who strives in His Cause and whose motivation for going out is nothing but Jihad in His Cause and belief in His Word, that He will admit him into Paradise (if martyred) or bring him back to his dwelling place, whence he has come out, with what he gains of reward and booty." (Sahih Bukhari, 4:53:352 [see also 9:93:549, 9:93:555, and 1:2:35 which adds: "...and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."])

"on the authority of Abu Huraira who said: Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home from where he had come out, with his reward and booty. (Sahih Muslim, 20:4628)

The only way to paradise if you want to avoid the weighing of your good to bad deeds by Allah and just want to et to paradise guaranteed -->
"Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." (Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:73 [see also 4:52:210, and Sahih Muslim, 20:4681])

"It has been reported on the authority of Jabir that a man said: Messenger of Allah, where shall I be if I am killed? He replied: In Paradise. The man threw away the dates he had in his hand and fought until he was killed". (Sahih Muslim, 20:4678)

"One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, "May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration. Two [religions] shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs." (Malik's Muwatta, 45:5:17)

"It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim." (Sahih Muslim, 19:4366)

LIVE BY "love for all and hatred for none" FOR REAL--stop reading the 'holy writings' of Islam a religion that began 'winning' converts by war and killing (thats how Saudi Arabia and Egypt and so forth were won--THAT is a historical fact" And those who continue to fight in that way are acting as true intrepters of Islam. So do not say "love for all and hatred for none" while you hide a dagger against me in your belt (or a suicide bomb strapped to your ass nowadays."

Take the log out your eyes before you tell me about the speck in mine.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN

at October 28, 2006 12:41 PM

oh we shall

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN

at October 28, 2006 12:43 PM

I still have never heard of this Dean blowhard outside of my visits to Jihad Watch, and I suspect that he basically has a chip on his shoulder since he just doesn't have the talent to reach and communicate with a large group of the population.

As a response to the lame attacks I think Robert has done his usual thorough job, and I can also suggest the commentary on Liberalism by Sam Harris here:

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/

Posted by: amana39

at October 28, 2006 1:05 PM

Friends,

Dean esmay. the very angry fellow enjoyed his rant. he repeatedly followed any reference to the traditional view of christ with an expectoration. when someone posted that Esmay certainly wouldnt do the same thing to muslim belief he just kept spitting at christ.

Notable: that he can do such a thing with no threat to his life, while the same activity towards Islam would bring the world down around his ears. He made no comment to it over many many posts. Maybe he is practicing the dhimmi thing. If any of you readers know Robert, ask him not not bother with Esmay anymore. Nothing much to learn there.

Some of the other sites were better. i liked isis okay. thoughtful, dont write her off. I ended up at the Anchoress site which has a nice intro, some good analysis of issues. i will be returning to it.

yours,

Posted by: Ozark

at October 28, 2006 1:53 PM

Robert,

On my webspace provider's domain, there exists another "Dean Esmay is God" adherent promulgating the same pretentious rhetoric and tenets:

http://smartandfinalisis.wordpress.com/2006/10/27/isis%e2%80%99-guide-to-sensible-islam-posting

Obviously, the two are collaborating together in a feeble attempt to panegyrize their own misquided convictions!

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog

at October 28, 2006 2:59 PM

Robert,

You really must stop responding to these ideological prostitutes, regardless of how churlish it may be. Merely one trip to Esmay's site to review his comments gives more than ample evidence that the man is seriously ill. He seems perfectly incapable of constucting a rational argument or response, and as such, deserves no notice. None.

Posted by: Sheik er' Bouti

at October 28, 2006 3:38 PM

Hi The Allies Shall win and… friends,

This is nice to know that you made some good efforts to study the subject of religion—Islam and I appreciate it. But this will be important to ascertain that with what aim the study was carried out? This will make our next step to discuss the issue that concern us easy.

We all know that in the wider perspective of western political arena and its periphery, Jews and Christians are seen grinding their axes for their enigmatic motives in worldly affairs, with a complete unison between them. But for last 2000 years Christians have not been able to convince Jews that, the prophet Jesus, the Christian picked up and follow, was actually prophet of Jews and their reformer that Israelite failed to recognise!

Jesus was out rightly rejected by Israelite. He was put on the cross to die a humiliating death. How unfortunate it is, that Israelites (Jews); were the chosen people of God. God gave them the book. To keep them on the right track, a follow up service was also catered for, and God very graciously kept on sending many other prophets till such time, Jesus came to reform them. Succeeding religions are not that fortuitous to avail such like divinely facilities.

This is Gods design that truth is always kept high at all the times and, in a very clear, vivid, and distinguished way. It requires, just a sincere, genuine big leap to reach for it. Jews know about Christianity very well, same is the case of Christian that they know Islam in details. But there is a mind set of a creed of zealots found in their religious arenas, who keeps a close watch to guard against any intrusion effecting the vested interests of their hierarchy, They make sure that it stays twisted as required, at all the time and at all levels. Any cross over is forbidden. Then there is capital, wealth and estate business involved in these arenas. One can find series of economic empires erected on these foundations. The splendour, opulence, pomp and show and prestige that clergies of these fogy empires enjoy, all this simply restrict them to accept the truth knocking loud at their doors. A tremendous courage, is required to step out of delude and attempt a cross over.

Study with a particular preconception, in this case, of Islam and its jurisprudence or some vague fataws of ulemas, etc, may not be called a relevant quest to find truth offered by Islam. This can be rendered as; a process under taken, only to sift for the clues, by turning all the stones; but ignoring and passing by all the significant portions and cherry picking only few which are found covetable or they yield and affirm the negative perception. This exercise keeps the inquisitors happy and to remain elated.

Surely earlier religions are like elementary stages of education for mankind; before it was all finalised by God Almighty to culminate it in Koran. God reveals in:
Chapter: 61 (Al-Saff) Verse : 7
“And call to mind when Jesus, son of Mary, said, 'O children of Israel, surely, I am Allah's Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad. And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, this is manifest sorcery.”

In chapter : 3 (Al-`Imran) Verse : 4 “He has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and He has sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this, as a guidance to the people; and He has sent down the Discrimination”.

And in chapter : 3 (Al-`Imran) Verse : 20
“Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Book did not disagree but, after knowledge had come to them, out of mutual envy. And whoso denies the Signs of Allah, then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning.”

And in chapter : 48 (Al-fath) Verse : 30
“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are hard against the disbelievers but tender among themselves. Thou seest them bowing and prostrating themselves in Prayer, seeking Allah's grace and pleasure. Their marks are upon their faces, being the traces of prostrations. This is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is like unto a seed-produce that sends forth its sprout, then makes it strong; it then becomes stout, and stands firm on its stem, delighting the sowers - That He may cause the disbelievers to boil with rage at the sight of them. Allah has promised, unto those of them, who believe and do good works, forgiveness and a great reward.”

Islam is very well a filtered and refined product of God Almighty bestowed to Muslims for its delivery as blessing to the mankind. It has come to stay. If its God’s design, it will prevail over all the previous denominations. Muslim may be resource less (at present), but in God that they trust, is not resource less.

(Daggers and bombs-Why are they there in Middle Eastern lands…after all? We will talk a bit later.)
We live and die for only one thing---Love!
So…
-------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 28, 2006 6:06 PM

Hi the allies shall win,

Before we talk about bombs and daggers; you said some thing about Islam that; if it could just stop inciting people to crash airplanes into towers ,etc.

Before we turn to all this; I would like to share a little anecdote with you!

***A friend in need is a friend indeed***
We are in occupation of Afghanistan out there to catch Osama & Co for last many years; and supposedly, hold the full command of that country.
But Osama and his top commanders are still out of our reach.
They are living there and successfully doing their businesses, side by side in the same country, the way they want.

Is it not very surprising?
Yes; of course!

But- we don’t want to catch them!

Why we will not be catching them?

Well, I have to tell you a… little story:

Once there was a conference going on, of police heads of different countries.
The on going discussion was that how early the thugs can be caught by police in their respective countries?

Country ‘A’ said that they can get hold of the culprit, after three days of the incident.

‘B’ said; well they can do it with in one day.

And when the turn of ‘C’ came, he said; catching of thugs, well no problem. We will know this plan, three days earlier… before the incident happens.

How come – asked every body? Because; the theft… we carry out our selves.

May there be no harm; come to Osama. He is our best loyal friend. Carrying out, all the good jobs for us. Only we made him sit out there! (Poor old lad.)

Who can be our better abettor, a henchman than Osama & Co, always ready to fix our self created predicaments, for us by sending a simple rhetoric, in advance, with the input that we want.
We got his input on 9/11 issue. A comprehensive one!
We will get right on dot before mid-term elections. Sure! (It is already pouring in.)
Has they ever been late or disappointed us in this regard? No never.

A friend in need is a friend indeed!

Don’t be surprised. This is the way, the way it is.
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Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 28, 2006 6:46 PM

"Knowledge is Power." The second oldest play in the playbook is to accuse the writer of Bias. The oldest is to say the writer is lying. The Jihadist supporters use both plays.

The biggest problem we have is playing catch up for all the years of misinformation already foisted upon the non Muslims in non Muslim countries. Those in Muslim countries are aware of the insideous nature of Islam (Keep your head down and your mouth shut).

Posted by: Davod

at October 29, 2006 4:17 AM

Designing a bomb to go round your waist?

Dear Friends-You asked for it,

The grand scheme of Imperialistic dream, ‘The Project for New American Century’ (PNAC), while describing the fundamental propositions, a plan for execution of racking up of all such territories containing the world critical economic resources to bring them into American fold is in place. This also entails a task for the American forces to secure all the routes, ways and certain lands, considered as stepping stones, leading to or around such havens.
The guide line to execute the plan of affective subjugation of native of the intended lands, can be best described in words of a renowned Neocons author, Ralph Peters as; “The defector role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those end, we will do a fair amount of killing”

Most of the lands marked for such exploitation are situated in and around the Arab world. They have the history of corrupt oppressing regimes imposed on their public. Once they used to be the civilised dominant power in the world. But with the break up of their Ottoman Empire, they have since, gone into some hibernation state and are still stuck in their old century woven shells. Their social fabrics are weak and the native generally content to live a life style of some gone centuries; destitute and primitive. Their vulnerability can very easily be exploited.

Often with the western vested interests, they are systematically instigated and supported to rabble-rouse against their imposed rulers. They are always seen engaged in some sort of a show down of embroilment with their governments. Such continuous anarchy keeps these states at the brink of collapse all the time and at the mercy of rich western nations. Once subjugated, they may form part as multiple local forces and are assigned new tasks to act as proxies.

These proxy rulers don’t represent or speak for their people. They are part of an artificial structure formed to govern but stay fully emasculated and bowed at the feet of oppressing, foreign power. The governments with no approval among the masses; end up creating unrest for people in the streets and decedent groups start emerging.

Ruling bodies being at the mercy of their foreign masters, (occupier in some cases) become abettor and loyal henchmen. While the rulers remain busy amassing wealth the decedent groups keep on growing large.

Money comes in, in abundance in form of Aid, etc. Although monies so received come with the strings attached and many dictates. But it is mostly eaten up by the rulers where the oppressors with the intent keep their eyes closed. This creates a huge gulf, found in between the common man in the street and rulers. The ruling bodies at lower levels resort to their brutish designs and create an atmosphere of enormity. Savage rules of tribalism are enforced which encourage killing and human rights are totally ignored... Masses remain deprived and uneducated with no jobs and very minimal income to live on. A sense of desperation, deprevation and discrimination prevails every where.

Where the people in the street are unable to revoke the installed government, they join the decedent groups and try to emerge as street power. On realising that a strong foreign hand is operation behind their rulers. They suspect foreign hands as real cause of all of their deprivation and afflictions. For the obvious reasons the rulers along with these foreign known hands backing them are declared their enemy no 1.

The desire to oust the imposed rulers and eliminate the interest of foreign powers they start grouping up in dissent. To crush this rebellion the rulers move in but these groups go under ground.
The groups need funds to survive. These funds are mostly generated locally. Other groups and neighbouring interested governments may also come forward with their emulations on required bases.
To remain popular among masses they keep on emerging above the streets, to mark their presence as well as to score their success. They carry out such moves which cause disruption in local government functioning and to jeopardize the interests/ setups of foreign forces.

To fight the enemy they need a regular supply of arms and ammunition and other equipment. This requires bigger flow of funds. Mostly they have very meagre resources at hand and their actions remain limited. In order to strike effectively and give a deep scar and also catch the attention of international media, the local charismatic scholars /leaders or Mullah may join up these groups. These new entrants may set up new doctrines and administer such belief, which push forward their cause, i.e. to prepare the youth to become a ‘mobile bombs’, the well known suicide bombers are the product of such desperate doctrinarian. Suicide Bomber is a deprivation ridden poor man pushed too far, left with his lost resort to retaliate by …sacrificing, even his own life and making a strong weapon out of his own soul.

This may seem stretching too far but these heinous acts of suicide, when become the top stories of media and an out cry of wide condemnation is felt all around. At the same time the oppressor powers are also seen budging, and softening their stances. Absurd; it may seem but this becomes the success story. A glorious achievement; an event to celebrate and glorify the work of suicide bombers.

This is a universal phenomenon found in the parts of world where ever the foreign oppressors are in operation. Islamist in the Middle East, Tamil Nado in Sirilanka, Mao and Kashmiri in India, and many more organisations operating in Far East and in South America, invariably they all resort to same ideology.

Islam, Christianity, Judaic or any other religion all condemn such subversive activities out rightly... They are as such not playing any major part in it. Religion is just a victim if these heinous acts. Some time the clerics may respond and may stir up the masses; but just in defence only.

This is only a war fought by the oppressor’s forces that triumph their evil designs and desperately strive to achieve their goals of greediness, fighting and massacring the destitute peoples in thousands.

Summery:
* Here agenda of oppressor force, is securing the planned hegemony and bring the countries set as targets to their folds of greed.

* The corrupt governments are the local stooges installed to act as abettors of greedy foreign forces.

* The destitute street fighters along with the under group dissidents are the creators of havoc and chaos, fighting for their survival and to evict their oppressors.

Often this unrest is seen escalating into major wars between the greedy oppressors, their local abettors and desperate and discriminated victims.

This all has got nothing to do with any religion! Not for Islam in any case.

We should not be naïve to go with the stories skilfully carved by media and stay hung in between. Media are just conflict creators and do not let you go to bottom of the things.

-------------------------
Love for, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 29, 2006 5:29 AM

any Muslim who renounces the ideologies of jihad and dhimmitude is most welcome to join forces with us

Except if a "Muslim" renounces the ideologies of jihad and dhimmitude, he implicitly declares himself as an apostate, and is therefore not a Muslim.

Posted by: anonymous

at October 29, 2006 6:14 AM

Salaam Mr Khokar:

Briefly reading your last post, I understood the following:

*Aid to Muslim nations should be stopped, as it largely supports corrupt leaders
*Foreign troops should withdraw unilaterally from Muslims countries.
*You believe that in this way, the people who you call destitute street fighters will be free to overthrow their oppresive leaders.

If you are a regular reader of this site, you might notice that your concrete goals are very similar to those of Mr. Hugh Fitzgerald. You can find his articles by clicking up on the top bar of this website, or going to the following link:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/hughfitzgerald.php

Posted by: jehana

at October 29, 2006 9:16 AM

Jehana,

Thanks for your kind comments.

I am new to this website and… I find lot of misconceptions regarding…God, our faith and the way mankind has gone through the phases of evolution in religion and finally reached at its summit; in form of Islam.

A special culture of arrogant and ignorant is in making through internet websites. The entire effort is to obliterate the route and make it foggy to reach for the summit.

But, who has ever been able to frustrate the plan of God.

There are clear warnings of God Almighty. When HE finds enough is enough and then; No one can escape the wrath of God:-

Chapter : 19 (Maryam) Verse : 99
“And how many a generation have We destroyed before them! Canst thou perceive a single one of them, or hear even a whisper of them?”

Chapter : 20 (TaHa) Verse : 129

“Does it not furnish guidance to them, how many a generation We destroyed before them, amid whose dwellings they now walk? Therein, verily, are Signs for those who possess understanding.”

Chapter : 6 (Al-An`am) Verse : 7
“See they not how many a generation We have destroyed before them? We had established them in the earth as We have not established you and We sent the clouds over them, pouring down abundant rain; and We caused streams to flow beneath them; then did We destroy them because of their sins and raised up after them another generation.”

May God bless us all.
---------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 30, 2006 5:14 AM

Jehana,

Thanks for your kind comments.

A special culture of arrogant and ignorant is in making through internet websites. The entire effort is to obliterate the route and make it foggy to reach for the summit.

But, who has ever been able to frustrate the plan of God.

There are clear warnings of God Almighty. When HE finds enough is enough and then; No one can escape the wrath of God:-

Chapter : 19 (Maryam) Verse : 99
“And how many a generation have We destroyed before them! Canst thou perceive a single one of them, or hear even a whisper of them?”

Chapter : 20 (TaHa) Verse : 129

“Does it not furnish guidance to them, how many a generation We destroyed before them, amid whose dwellings they now walk? Therein, verily, are Signs for those who possess understanding.”

May God bless us all.
---------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at October 30, 2006 5:15 AM

Great post, Robert. Let's reject the name calling and vague handwaving and get down to calmly discussing facts of what the Koran says or doesn't say. You have done an admirable job of keeping your head when others are accusing you of all manner of things. Keep up the good work.

Posted by: Open Eyes

at October 30, 2006 2:04 PM

Is Jihad fostered and cherished by Muslims only or do we also find some thing equivalent and comparable of Jihad which tantamount to the same meanings in other religions?

Posted by: A Khokar

Khokar, here is the Great and Powerful challenge unto you:

Present JUST ONE sentence given in the New Testament [The Supremem Authority of ALL Christians] that teaches humans to be violent with each other.

There is NO WAY you can - because NONE exist!

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I [Jesus] should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. [Commanded upon His return]

Guess who carries out that punishment?

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels [NOT HUMANS} shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.

Jesus delivered a Great Sword - one that this world hates because it preaches:

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That Holy Teaching is on a level that a cny child can understand - because children are born to love. They have to be taught to hate - in order to hate.

Khokar, in your Koran - are the teachings of beheadings, gang rape of female captives, the cutting off of hands and feet, crucifixions and treason [grand theft]that are on a level that a child can understand.

Want the chapters and the verses?

There youu have it: you have been Stoned - the Biblical way.

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; ''''The Stone'''' which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner.

1Pe 2:5 Ye [Christians] also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Bottom line:

There are no teachings that teach humans to be violent in the New Testament.

You have not spoken the Truth

Posted by: Beth

at October 31, 2006 5:20 PM

Present JUST ONE sentence given in the New Testament [The Supremem Authority of ALL Christians] that teaches humans to be violent with each other.

A Khokar, don't present any Holy Scriptures that tell us what is going to happen to the sinners once Jesus returns - but rather - present the New Testament Scriptures that tell humans to be violent with each other.

That's the challenge.

I await your proof [but will not be holding my breath - which, hopefully - you'll be able to see why]

Posted by: Beth

at October 31, 2006 5:26 PM

1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Posted by: Beth

at October 31, 2006 5:37 PM

God - is the Supreme Judge of who should live and who should not - not humans

He already decided that ALL humans must die - because ALL have sinned - for the wages of sin - is death.

Woe be unto those who feel themselves worthy of filling graves!

Their buts are going to the exact same place!

Why?

Because they're not God

It is Blasphemy before the Creator in its highest form - to believe you have the right to take my life - just because I don't believe as you do.

And if you deny - I have the very writings of your very own allah - that tell you to kill me for debating with you. [on a level that a child can understand]

This, I know. So do you.

But, in the end - the very end - God will be my Judge - not you - or anyone else who thinks like you do

This one thing is for sure:

I don't have blood dripping from my hands. There are many things I have to answer for in the day of Judgemnt. Murder is not one of them ... not even in my heart.

My heart may be corrupted - but NOT by the blood of others.

{all human hearts are corupted before God - because He is God]

That is what makes the world go around.

You either see the Beauty of it all - or you don't.

Your choice.

Posted by: Beth

at October 31, 2006 9:42 PM

Hi Beth and friends,

I under stand that this website called, Jihad Watch’ has their special declared agenda; of mud slinging toward Islam. They find any thing happening bad in the world; twist it and just blame it on Muslims.

You seem to be reason able person and assumingly a well versed with the word of God with regard to gospel.
Go through my earlier posts (above here) and you could find the answer to your; almost all the queries. Any how I shall touch upon the salient again in the light of your deliberations.

a. All the divine books; whether this be the Torah, Gospel (Bible) or Koran. These books are the ‘Word of God’ and as long as these are preserved in pure form; there can’t be any contradiction in the word of God or true spirit of it; because Word of God stands eternal. Islam recognises these books and obviously considers earlier books as containing the ‘elementary teachings’ for mankind and bears witness that evolution of conscious of mankind remained a continuous process till its completion ; culminating in Koran as one ‘universal book. Moses got Torah and all the previous teachings prior to it; practiced in any form were superseded. There were many prophets in Judaic, who had come to keep them on track. Torah commandments were in practiced for quite some times till that its followers required a real reformation. God sent Jesus as reformer. (Although Judaic rejected their reformer out rightly and put him on the cross to die a humiliating death, where as Christian picked him and followed.) Any how, these denominations are the stepping stones; leading us to finally reach at the summit; where we find God’s teaching glorifying… in Koran in the form of Islam. Koran confirms all the previous instructions of God and understands that it may happen that followers from the old denominations; may prefers their old known rut and acceptance of moderation or say succession for them may not be easy. So Koran very generously, where invites them to the higher level also leaves these residuum with the safe avenue; provided they believe in One God and act as per their adopted old teachings in the true spirit; and believe in the hereafter. Koran-Chapter : 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse : 63…”Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”
There is no use of challenging or counter challenging these issues because there is no dispute in word of God; may this be in Torah, Gospel or Koran. Only we may be putting our little knowledge on test and on that account; we all stand there just insignificant.

b. This is also not unusual that we find Islam being mocked at. All the prophets have been mocked on their declaration as messengers of God. There are hordes of slanderers every where; including quite a few on this website also. Rather; shall I say; the entire set up of this website is meant to serve this purpose. They are; but bent to attack Islam from all sides and defame it. What a useless exercise and waste of talent? Just to pursue; a mere conjecture. How has, ever been able to frustrate the plan of God.

c. We find the western oppressing forces waging war in Middle Eastern theatre. In order to emasculate and subjugate the local rulers and natives; they are trying to fully occupy and bring the lucrative land of world economical resources into their fold; they are committing atrocities beyond human imagination. Every body knows that this is war for oil. If the sole export of Middle East was ‘cucumber and tomatoes’ and oil was found some where in central Africa; do you think this war would have been there? Some how; the victim here; happens to be Muslims. They are denied all their human rights. They are disgraced, humiliated and pushed, squeezed to the limit. Like any body else on this planet earth they try to resist the oppressor and retaliate and adopt ways and means to fight back the oppression. They have started demonstrating the tactics like; ‘Dog fly knows that how a sting at a right place; makes a terrifying bull dog spin.’ This is bringing a heavy loss of life and assets to oppressing forces. This is all that an out cry that we hear in the western owned media ; and in sermons given by rulers.

d. Let’s not make our religion controversial here on this account… and; especially Islam; It has got nothing to do with these conflicts.

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Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar

at November 2, 2006 5:07 AM

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