Yes, the cab ride. Takes me back.

Had either passenger dared to take issue, then the hysteria would have been apparent, and the mask fullly ripped off.

Posted by: Hugh at November 5, 2006 6:54 PM

I am a moderate Muslim and I am not normally a supporter of Sheik Hilali, but in this instance he is right.

He musta shifted his weight in the driver's seat and accidently flipped that switch embedded in his back from Inactive to Active.

Moslem Man sez: You scratch my back and I'll scrath yours, and if not that then threaten you, and if not that then subjugate you, and if not that then murder you.

Islam is the domain of activity switches wired to occluded brain circuitry.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 5, 2006 7:06 PM

Makes you wonder if the only moderate muslims are the non practiscing, secular types. Other than that there maybe no such animal as a moderated muslim.

Posted by: Paladin3000 at November 5, 2006 7:08 PM

at this point l dont give a rat's ass of what muslims want to think, if they are smart enough with life, they will figure it out. l think the main point is to educate the non-muslim population of the dangers of islam. we can destroy islam with knowledge.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 5, 2006 7:09 PM

Like Michael Savage would say -- "Islam is a mental illness" Once upon a time I was impressed with the "authenticity" of 3rd world immigrants. That wore off years ago. This "respectable looking" 60 year old Muslim has major log jams in his brain same as his sun baked compatriots in Muslim nations.

One loony Oz Imam claimed Australia was Muslim territory. That afghans had settled it before the Europeans. Trying to stake a Muslim claim to infidel land? Like with Spain

Posted by: dennisw at November 5, 2006 7:10 PM

I would say 90% of Muslims in the West are on automatic. Push just a few buttons and they'll spew revolting Jew hatred, white colonialist hatred on down. Their brains brim over with anti-Ummah conspiratorialist crapola.

SHORT FUSE, thy name is Islam!

Posted by: dennisw at November 5, 2006 7:15 PM

it is written "if your eye leads you into sin gouge it out because it is better to enter the kingdom of heaven without your eye than go to the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth"

It is also written "If any one of these leaders leads people astry it is better he has a millstone put round his neck and be cast to the bottom of the sea"

If moslems listened to "their prophet" Jesus then they would take His words seriously but they don't because if their eye leads them to sin they blame the women for being immodest and kill her at worst or suppress her at best.

If moslems listened to "their prophet" Jesus then they would take His words seriously but they don't because if some angry bearded hatemonger claimes ot be scholer they call him a mufti and take his every word as gospel.

For those who think God=nasty in old testament and God=loving in the new they really need to actually read a bible because in the old men are held to account and blamed for the existance of prostitutes, and maltreatment of women.

In the new testament Jesus Himself and His Aposltes also testify to the anger and sever judgement of God towards those who lead others into evil... The words that condemn the moslem clerics who preach hate and blame women where God blames men are as clear as they are shocking.

It would help community relations if some bishops actually had the balls to contribute what input "the prophet" Jesus has so at least those with a "christian" heritage could be understood....

Posted by: exposesithlords at November 5, 2006 7:46 PM

From the article:

"This was a beat-up, he told us in the most vehement tones. Had Hilali made a point of saying this on national television to cause a controversy? No, he had said it in Arabic to his own congregation and it had been plucked out of context to create a fuss."

That's one of the biggest problems with Islam - the Clerics slowly brainwashing their congregation behind closed doors.

And, let me see if I've got this right... According to what the taxi driver has implied, if Hilali was on television, he never would have made those statements??? What kind of logic is that? Of course Hilali never wanted to create a controversy. But, if he was allowed to speak on national television in Arabic or whatever, he still would have said the same thing, since his type still think that the West isn't paying attention to what is being preached by his ilk.

Well, since 9/11, WE ARE WATCHING YOU!!!

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 5, 2006 7:48 PM

exposesithlords,

Check out the following link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/05/nrelig05.xml

At least it's a start!

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 5, 2006 7:51 PM

Wow Doctor Bulldog great link. A potential armed Christian uprising. Can I join?

Posted by: Ronin at November 5, 2006 8:00 PM

Where else but in a taxi can you hear the honest opinion of the "man on the street" while you're captive for a few minutes? And where else but behind the wheel of a taxi will you find a Muslim?

The myth of the "moderate Muslim" continues.

Posted by: Xero G at November 5, 2006 8:05 PM

dennisw

Spot on. Brief, economical on words, great insight into the malignant brainwashing Muslims have been subjected to.
The myth of the "moderate Muslim" is vanishing, too slowly, perhaps, but it's happening.

Posted by: ovidius_naso at November 5, 2006 8:14 PM

His "moderate" Islam is what the rest of us are supposed to embrace because he represents 99.44% of all Muslims who desire only to live in peace with non-Muslims. Only a few are whackos.
If this guy is a "moderate", then what would define a "liberal" Muslim?

Posted by: PMK at November 5, 2006 8:37 PM

Think about what could have happened IF the passengers had dared to speak up, to offer a divergent opinion. The idea is frightening.

The speech of the passengers was chilled as if he held a gun on them and forced them to listen, essentially what the few Muslims in the West are doing.

Look at the effect of just a few Muslims in the West. Imagine what will happen when they gain critical mass: 10-40%.

Posted by: Eleanor at November 5, 2006 8:39 PM

I've got news for you folks. You're missing the point, big time! It's not about the prophet they call Jesus, it's about the prophet they call Moses and the thing that was handed down to him by the 'Hand of God' approx. 21 centuries before Mohammed. They're kinda short on the 'Ten Commandments' and yet they say that God's law is immutable?

I think that they missed that train by a couple of hours at least. The question for them is if the ticket is still good.

Posted by: Mike H. at November 5, 2006 8:40 PM

There is no moderate muslim, at least not for long. Never has been never will be, they killum dont ya know.

Posted by: tgusa at November 5, 2006 8:42 PM

I presume Mr Craven left no tip.

Here's a tip from Pelayo. Mr Cabdriver, get the hell out of Australia.

Posted by: Pelayo at November 5, 2006 9:19 PM

"When moderates attack."

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 5, 2006 9:44 PM

I have had a gut full of these 'moderates'... I avoid them like the plague and I tell them to move on rather than to enter their taxi. On 2 occasions I got off when the da'awa got on my nerves and my rebuttal including my ridicule would have caused a serious confrontation...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 5, 2006 10:07 PM

"He was clearly an intelligent, middle-class man who was incensed that a pack of Muslim baiters should be telling him what his daughter should do with her hair."

I know exactly how he feels, because it's this same jackass' that will be telling me what my daughter can do with her hair in say, about 10 years, if we don't do something about this now. There is no reasoning or negotiating with these folks. They keep it down while they're building up, and by the stories we're seeing about more and more Hefty bags and nasty, scraggly beards showing up all over Paris and London, they are proliferating quite nicely, thank you. Remember, the guys who were students during the hostage crisis in 1979 are now Ahmadinejad's age and running the place. Those kids you see at the park right now will be the ones doing the gang raping and slitting infidel's throats in the next decade or two. I'm tired of being polite when I know exactly what these guys are planning for me and mine.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 5, 2006 10:41 PM

I know exactly how he feels, because it's this same jackass' that will be telling me what my daughter can do with her hair in say, about 10 years,
Carry an Arkansas toothpick and a 45, and you will be OK.

Posted by: tgusa at November 5, 2006 10:46 PM

SHORT FUSE, thy name is Islam!

Posted by: dennisw at November 5, 2006 07:15 PM

...yes SHORT FUSE to uncontrolled, violent, beastly JIHAD!

Posted by: Alert at November 5, 2006 10:50 PM

Thanks Tgusa,

Unfortunately, it's starting to feel like the Wild West around here. I don't have a problem defending myself with a pistol. It's just that these damned Muslims let out a little whine and all the dhimmis in authority come running to wipe their noses and kiss their asses, and then we're the ones who get in trouble. Remember when you were in school there was always that kid that pulled garbage and when you reacted the teacher nailed you? That's what it feels like when you stand up for yourself in this day and age, not that I don't or won't. But Mr. intelligent, middle-class man might want to watch his mouth because if it comes down to him or me, I'm getting to the point where I might not think twice.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 5, 2006 10:56 PM

Isabellathecrusader,
You need help, speak up, I have friends in many places/non-governmental. Just holler.
Alert,
TAKE YOUR BDS AND BEAT IT!

Posted by: tgusa at November 5, 2006 11:09 PM

Jihad-watching bloggers--
This is one of the best stories and articles for me as far as getting some insight on the picture of of what is going on right now close to home. I'm sure many of us have been in big cities from and ridden in these muslim driven cabs. You know, you think "he kinda looks like the guy in the movie who drove into the barracks (or whatever else you've seen them blow up)..ah, but what the heck."

You know, I've never really engaged a muslim in conversation since I've been this heightened in my awareness of what a dreaded disease islam is (Savage is right on on that one). Pig farmer, your quote about the progression is so funny, but I see the truth in it too. Here it is again:

"Moslem Man sez: You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, and if not that then threaten you, and if not that then subjugate you, and if not that then murder you."

Pig farmer is a prophet too, I say--this is so accurate.

The one part of what this muslim says, I do want to comment on for the record--- the quote he says:

"Look, I am a Muslim, and because I am a Muslim I have to believe in the words of Jesus because he was a prophet, just as I believe in the words of Isaiah. Ninety per cent of what the Christians believe, I also, a Muslim, believe."

Listen folks--I halfway think he really believes this is true. But let me tell you friends, the god of the koran is so unlike the true G-d of the Bible that it is like comparing the ravings of lunatic to the holy and true words of G-d.

The G-d of the OT is the same G-d of the NT--we just learn through his incarnation of his son, the Messiah or Christ (that means THE ANOINTED ONE--the CHOSEN ONE)with great depth how G-d can be both all loving and all just at the same time. What a G-d! And even in this struggle beween Jew and Arab-(Isaac and Ishmael) the Bible explains the origins of the conflict--the rival line of Ishmael was proclaimed to be a vicious usurper from the start. Here is how he is introduced:

You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers." (Gen 16:11-12)

He is also proclaimed to very POTENT to turn into a mighty throng of so many "descendants that they will be too numerous to count." v.10

muhammed was the one took this rival blood line and gave it a spiritual (albeit muderous) heartbeat. It was like--"you Jews and Christians got religion--well I'll show you religion..." voila--as he sacked and pillaged in his conquest--you got the koran/islam.

Anyhow--I just want to say, that camparing the murderous baarbarism of islam to (Judaism or) Christianity is like comparing black and white. I'll end this rant there. But I wanted say this for anyone who cares to read it.

Posted by: BB at November 5, 2006 11:21 PM

I have said it over and over agian, it is a nightmare, no, it is not a nightmare, it is worse! No one seems to listen,. I feel like the guy in the movie,I Robot, dammit, they are trying to take over! Why won’t you listen?

Posted by: tgusa at November 5, 2006 11:30 PM

tgusa,

Here and there, some people are waking up.

Today, I saw a sign in front of a local evangelical church which said: "We Celebrate Life, not Death"

It seems a circumspect reference to the mohammedan cult of death, aka islam. The sign's wording was careful and oblique, but it is something.

Posted by: del at November 5, 2006 11:49 PM

del,
There are people that think the way we do, out there? Thank God, I thought I was alone.

Posted by: tgusa at November 6, 2006 12:05 AM

I had a very nasty experience indeed a couple of years ago with the husband of a seemingly VERY moderate Muslim student I had. She was a fairly recent immigrant from Iran but never wore a veil except when she attended a mosque, wore fairly heavy makeup, and even had bleached blonde hair (!). She was also highly educated, with, I believe, a PhD in Chemistry, and she said it was her husband who was encouraging her to learn English as well as to take additional courses, rather than sitting home (so, I assumed he must be very "moderate" too). She would occasionally send me emails with links to stories about Iran or positive websites about Islam. I generally politely ignored the latter (I never, ever tried to tell her about any of my own religious beliefs, I might add). Finally, when she sent a link to a film by CAIR (or perhaps a similar organization) which went on and on about Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance, I couldn't keep quiet any longer. I sent back an extremely polite reply saying that I thought it was, overall, a nice film, but that I was curious as to why certain Koranic verses it quoted were not quoted in full, etc.

Well, stupid me--I should have known what would happen. Actually, to be fair, SHE was fine. She replied that she felt bad that I had misconceptions about her religion, but she did not react angrily or irrationally. Things got bad when her husband (whom I have never met nor spoken to) began emailing me instead; his emails consisted of nothing but personal insults, veiled threats of violence, totally insane accusations (about things I had never even implied, let alone said), etc., etc. At one point, he even claimed (and went out of his way to insist that he was not exaggerating) that Mother Theresa of Calcutta was "like Hitler" compared to Mohammed. It was truly unnerving.

What really upset and angered me is that, unlike his wife, this man was NOT a recent immigrant from an Islamic state; his English was so good that he clearly had been raised here or in another English-speaking country from a very young age; he even had a college degree from a US university. All of this because I had asked his wife, very politely, some valid questions about the content of a film SHE had sent me the link to, unasked for.

I'm sorry this story is so long, but I must add the best part: This utter coward, although he insulted and threatened me, never had the guts to put his name to his emails; instead he used initials and claimed to be only his wife's "friend." (Sure--like a married woman recently moved here from Iran would be allowed to have a close male friend.) In my final email reply (which I addressed to his wife), I said to tell her friend that he had a very nice, intelligent wife. Funny, I never heard a word from either of them after that. You think he got scared? Wonder what his immigration status is.

Posted by: kaffirchick at November 6, 2006 12:06 AM

"Ninety per cent of what the Christians believe, I also, a Muslim, believe."
-- from the article quoting the taxi-car above

1. This is untrue. There is almost no overlap between Christianity and Islam, Judaism and Islam. The seeming overlap derives from an optical illusion: the appropriation, and distortion, of figures -- Moses, Jesus, and of course many of those in the Biblical stories -- important in Judaism and Christianity, who are then claimed for Islam, is not the same thing as "believing" 90% of "what the Christians believe."

Do Muslims believe that Christ is the Son of God? No. Do they believe anything like the message, or the meaning, contained in the sayings and parables of Christ? No. What is it, then, that constitutes that "ninety percent of what the Christains believe I also, a Muslim, believe"? It's all nonsense.

And of course, one needs to remind oneself that, chimpanzees and men have a genetic makeup that is -- what? -- 98%, 99% identical. But it's that last 2% or 1% of difference that makes all the difference.

Posted by: Hugh at November 6, 2006 12:15 AM

Count me in on the chimp side, I would rather be a monkey than an idiot.

Posted by: tgusa at November 6, 2006 12:27 AM

"He was clearly an intelligent, middle-class man and he was incensed that a pack of Muslim baiters should be telling him what his daughter should do with her hair."

And how strange. I thought it would make more sense that she decide what to do with her own hair, that this essentially was what the entire debate was about: the right to be free of ridiculous religious observation.

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 6, 2006 1:03 AM

kaffirchick:

Don't hesitate. Don't hold back. Report him IMMEDIATELY to the university. Explain how you were insulted and threatened. Find out who his supervisors are (or WERE - a little pressure in the right places can taint a university career for ever) and send him copies of the emails. University staff, blighted dhimmis as they may be publically, take (and are forced to take, by law) all such reports very seriously indeed.

Don't hesitate. Fire away.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 6, 2006 1:13 AM

"And what does Hilali say? Simply this, that a woman should not uncover her head.

Alas, if only Hilali said "simply this" and nothing else, there would've been no "fuss", I'm sure. But nooooo, he had to throw in the bit about "rape being the fault of women being uncovered".

I tell you, there is a war against the uncovered women of their country, there is a persecution, and it is being conducted by many Muslims. And the worst is Hilali.

Posted by: yadayada at November 6, 2006 1:29 AM

Kaffirchick:
"(I never, ever tried to tell her about any of my own religious beliefs, I might add)".

Spot on. This is one MIghty problem I have faced with all muslims. Never can you have a normal conversation with abandon. Literacy or the lack of it has no impact at all. Never shall the twain meet, as long as they glorify and cloak their ruthless political ideology as *religion*.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 6, 2006 2:16 AM

"And he is right. Look, I am a Muslim, and because I am a Muslim I have to believe in the words of Jesus because he was a prophet, just as I believe in the words of Isaiah. Ninety per cent of what the Christians believe, I also, a Muslim, believe.

Yes , muslims just don`t believe the peaceful and
tolerant parts.
Blackbeard the Bedouin replaced them with
incitement to violence , hatred and intolerance.

Posted by: aladdinsane57 at November 6, 2006 2:25 AM

Yesterday , on Indian tv channel,there was an animated discussion among indian muslims about hijab. Compered,no doubt by a pc moron who had not a single disconcertingly honest question.

One of the muslim men pointed to 3 muslim women seated. One had her entire face covered, the other's eyes alone were visible and the third one's entire head was covered leaving the face exposed. He beamingly claimed "see, how flexible islam is...three different types of attire..". And the third woman (face exposed) was most vocal and voluble in defending islam as the most " peaceful,woman friendly..."yadyada...

Another muslim stated " pakistan lost bangladesh as it did nothing to stop womenfolk (in bangladesh) from wearing sarees".

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 6, 2006 2:30 AM

I knew 2 Muslim families in Australia, and while I never had religious discussions with any of them, I can tell you that the women - mothers and daughters - wore no veils. They went to mosque once a week, and the children - a son and daughter from one family and three daughters from the other - saw it as a kind of weekly chore, much like young Aussie kids with religious parents aren't over the moon about going to church.

One family - from Sri Lanka - sent their son and daughter to the same public school as me. They both went on to university. I was good friends with the son, who liked hip-hop and basketball, drank beer, went clubbing and smoked. He was completely secular, apart from not eating pork and observing Ramadan. However, he also enjoyed Christmas. His sister didn't drink, but it was because she was a goody two-shoes, rather than because of any religious objection. The two of them also worked part-time at the same restaurant as me.

The other family - from Iran - I met through one of their daughters. The three daughters went to a private Catholic school. Their father was a doctor, the mother a secretary of some sort. They fled Iran in the 1980s, due to a combination of the Iran-Iraq war and the Islamic dictatorship. They lived not in a ghetto but in an ordinary, middle-class Australian suburb. The eldest daughter, who I'd met first, had a white, Australian boyfriend - with the approval of both parents. The family spoke English at home. At the daughter's 21st birthday, they had no issue with the guests drinking alcohol in their house, although they themselves refrained.

Moderate Muslims are out there. Believe that.

As for the taxi driver's comments, I'd like to say the following:

1. No, Hilaly didn't say anything on TV. The fact that he only said this behind closed doors, in another language, is some indicator that he knew his remarks would be controversial if ever revealed.

2. This is no beat-up. Pauline Hanson was a beat-up for saying a few things that made perfect sense. This man blames rape on women - what does he expect?

3. There is a war on white, Anglo-Saxons in Sydney - it is being conducted by Lebanese gangs, who number a couple of thousand, and the worst 200 of them were tearing up Cronulla over a week last year. What did the police do? They heroically (!) arrested a few Anglo surfers and locals in Maroubra who were preparing to defend their neigbourhoods, scattered the rest, and confiscated their weapons. Don't think the Aussies wimped out there - hundreds of them turned out in force to repel the Lebanese, only to be subverted by the same cops who then proceeded to fail in their duty to protect them.

Well, the Cronulla Report is out, and hopefully there will be some changes. Unfortunately, it seems that most of the changes are directed against stopping white kids from protecting themselves again.

Posted by: Holy Wart at November 6, 2006 3:52 AM

Holy Wart
"Moderate Muslims are out there. Believe that."

There are white Bengal tigers also...and I think you see my point.

Posted by: pismopal at November 6, 2006 4:51 AM

It's strange how I never hear anybody use the term 'moderate Christian' or
'Moderate Hindu' or indeed of any other ideology other than Islam . Could it possibly be that all other faiths are enirely moderate compared to that of Muslims ?
And anyway , in what are moderate Muslims being moderate ? Do they believe their koran or not ? If not , then ditch the pretence and cease calling themselves Muslim at all . If they do , then also ditch the pretence and recognise that the jihadis are amongst Muslims truer to the Koran . Muslims must choose this day which they will be .

Posted by: WeatherPermitting at November 6, 2006 5:28 AM

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=000CDBFE-21FA-154B-9AF483027AF1010E

He said the Koran was clear that women should cover themselves ”from the wrist right down to the ankles and all over except the face - that is one interpretation. The other interpretation is that they should be completely covered.“

Writing on the ”Info for NZ Muslims website“, Syrian-born Mr Arwani called on Muslims to support Sheik Alhilali. ”The argument that men should control themselves is ludicrous. It is just like saying thieves should not rob houses whose doors and windows are left wide open," he said.

---
from lgf

Posted by: Borg at November 6, 2006 7:53 AM

The moderated Muslims of which Holy Wart speaks from his experience are a strange lot. They acculturate themselves to varying degrees to a Western culture which their Islamic culture -- however attenuated it may be in their minds and lives -- regards, in its core texts as well as mainstream pedagogy in madrassas, mosques and Islamic universities throughout the Muslim world, as vile, evil and inferior. Those moderated Muslims of Holy Wart's experience are like moderated German Nazis who no longer believe in the Third Reich nor in conquering the world, but who continue to hang portraits of Der Fuhrer on their walls, swastikas on their doors, and perhaps do a little "heil Hitlering" and goosestepping now and then around the house and yard as a matter of perfunctory liturgy; and then they expect to have Jews over for dinner and expect everything to be hunky-dory.

Well, the time is past for that nonsense. Any right-minded Jew with self-respect would refuse to have dinner with such a family until they showed their respect and human decency by taking down those portraits of Hitler and swastikas and burned them in a solemn bonfire, and stopped their reflexive tips of the hat to a liturgy that is based upon a history of mass-murder and humiliating treatment of Jews.

The analogy between we Infidels to these moderated Muslims of Holy Wart's experience, and the Jews to that conjectured moderate Nazi family is exact.

Posted by: remote_control at November 6, 2006 7:55 AM

Remote_control, Brilliant.

Even presuming there are so called moderates in overwhelming numbers, their presence has made no dent in jihadists' violent acts. Fingers are always pointed towards infidels' imagined acts of omission and commission rather than owning up responsibility themselves. Indeed, had this violent style of jihad not been integral to islam all of them would have long taken remedial measures. The *moderates* are having the cake and eating it too.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 6, 2006 8:43 AM

Weather Permitting wrote:

"Do they believe their koran or not ? If not , then ditch the pretence and cease calling themselves Muslim at all."

I understand the frustration with the never-ending onslaughts of Islamo-fascism, but really, do you accept the possibility that there are non-practicing Muslims out there, much the same as there are non-practicing Catholics and others?

I had a girlfriend from a Catholic family. Her parents were strict Catholics and made the kids go to church every Sunday until they were 18. She identified herself as a Catholic and said she believed in God. Apart from that, she practiced pre-marital sex, used contraceptives and ate meat during Lent. She went to church at Christmas and Easter only. A non-practicing Catholic, wouldn't you say? She didn't differ remarkably from the Muslims I talked about.

Is it that hard to accept that some people don't follow their religion to the letter and are not "reformed Nazis" for dropping the objectionable parts? I mean, there are calls on here for Muslims to reform themselves, yet when they do they are compared to "moderate Nazis". I am not going to blame people for following their religion despite its history of violence and oppression. The Muslims I know don't hate Jews, don't rant and rave about jihad... is it fair to say that they are evil because so much of their religion - parts which they reject, incidentally - is evil? I mean, religion barely even features in the Australian landscape. To these friends of mine, Muslim is a label, much like many Aussies will identify themselves as Baptist or Anglican or whatever, despite rarely or never practicing their professed religion.

So yes, while I believe a lot about Islam is trouble, and Australia would be better off without some of the troublemakers, I'm going to stick up for these friends of mine thank you very much.

Posted by: Holy Wart at November 6, 2006 8:50 AM

"do you accept the possibility that there are non-practicing Muslims out there, much the same as there are non-practicing Catholics and others?"

The effects of modern secularism, over the past 200-300 years now in the West, upon Christian mores, Christian habits, Christian society, Christian psychology, and Christian lifestyles has been profound in depth and breadth. There are millions of Christians throughout the West in various stages of decomposition from their bedrock faith (and a good many of these individuals are relatively happy and healthy in their state of relative uncertainty and disengagement from Christendom). Furthermore, Christians in the modern West do not dominate their civilization, as Muslims still dominate their "Muslim world" in too many ways (whether with actual power or not is not relevant -- what is relevant is the perceived identity of a trans-national Islam); Christians are, rather, comparmentalized within the modern secular West.

The effects of modern secularism on Islamic culture is nowhere near as profound; in fact, it has been rather superficial -- and, more importantly, perceived by most Muslims, rightly, as an imposition from outside Islamic culture, through the medium of Western colonialism, and therefore has not penetrated very deeply, and too often arouses varying degrees of disordered cultural schizophrenia among so-called moderated Muslims.

I wager that had Holy Wart poked and prodded these Muslim acquaintances with a little more pertinent provocations grounded in the Qur'an and Ahadith, their veneer of beer-drinking bonhommie might have cracked to reveal a suddenly irrational pique and hostility, and that ancient dividing line of all Mankind into Believer and Infidel would have suddenly been revealed in these otherwise congenial apparently Westernized Muslims. Too often, people just accept the friendly smiles of Muslims as indicative of what's in their hearts and minds.

I sure as hell don't want to bank my safety on smiles and schizophrenic beer-drinking.

Posted by: remote_control at November 6, 2006 9:10 AM

I do not understand and hope someone can enlighten me about Jesus and Mohammed. Christians believe Jesus is their personal savior and that one can be saved by no other. Christians know that he was a rabbi and prophet but don't emphasize these facts. Mohammed and his followers teach that Jesus lied about being the son of God and that he will have to say so in the future and be punished. How can they revere him with such high status if he is a liar?

Posted by: ubaggy1 at November 6, 2006 11:06 AM

Every muslim is a potential terrorist.~ posted above.

So you believe that Tashbih Sayyed, editor-in-chief of Muslim World Today;
and on the Jihad Watch board of Directors, is a potential terrorist?

Posted by: Bar at November 6, 2006 11:12 AM

I would have loved to have been in that taxi. What an opportunity to witness for Christ.

The Gospel Truth. Never leave home without it!

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 6, 2006 11:17 AM

Bar,

There are two ways to intend the statement, "Every muslim is a potential terrorist."

1) As a statement of known fact, that every Muslim is in fact a potential terrorist.

2) As a statement precisely of unknown fact, but known probability: because we don't know which apparently harmless Muslims could be terrorists, and which are not terrorists, and because we know that given the

a) peculiarities of Islamic culture,

b) the supremacist fanaticism of Islamic ideology,

c) the psychology of Islamic militancy and sabotage fueled by (a) and (b)

d) the extremism unto suicidal tactics fueled by (a) and (b)

e) the extremism of homicidal carnage fueled by (a) and (b)

f) the factor of "sudden jihad syndrome" fueled by (a) and (b)

and

g) the doctrine of taqiyya fueled by (a) and (b)

the unpredictability, randomness, and prevalence of the probability of terrorism manifesting itself in any given Muslim is high, then we can reasonably conclude that any given Muslim is potentially a terrorist -- since our inability to tell the difference between the forever harmless Muslim and the potential terrorist renders that difference, for our practical purposes, non-existent.

Personally, I'd have to see a thorough and satisfactory explanation -- from any Muslim that claims to be free of reasons to remain suspect -- of how and why his Islam is purged of all the horrible and evil aspects inhering in the Qur'an, Ahadith and Prophet Mohammed, before I suspend my suspicion of him.

Posted by: remote_control at November 6, 2006 11:54 AM

"Until the last 200 years no woman in the West uncovered her head."

It's typical of Muslim apologists to re-invent western history for their own purposes.While customs varied from place to place and time to time there has never been a hard and fast rule about this, especially a religious one.There was, up to Edwardian times a convention, in polite society, that married women always wore their hair 'up' in public while the unmarried or young could wear it 'down'. Thus Elizabeth I, as a 25 year old unmarried woman, was crowned with her hair falling over her shoulders.

Posted by: wallyUK at November 6, 2006 2:03 PM

remote control wrote:

"The effects of modern secularism on Islamic culture is nowhere near as profound; in fact, it has been rather superficial -- and, more importantly, perceived by most Muslims, rightly, as an imposition from outside Islamic culture, through the medium of Western colonialism, and therefore has not penetrated very deeply, and too often arouses varying degrees of disordered cultural schizophrenia among so-called moderated Muslims."

I think you're attributing far too much of a global geo-political outlook to these friends of mine. They're ordinary people just doing their thing. As I said, religion is not a great feature of Australian life and I honestly doubt that these peopl are wrestling with any of the deeper theological/political/social ramifications of their way of life.

And this:

"I wager that had Holy Wart poked and prodded these Muslim acquaintances with a little more pertinent provocations grounded in the Qur'an and Ahadith, their veneer of beer-drinking bonhommie might have cracked to reveal a suddenly irrational pique and hostility, and that ancient dividing line of all Mankind into Believer and Infidel would have suddenly been revealed in these otherwise congenial apparently Westernized Muslims. Too often, people just accept the friendly smiles of Muslims as indicative of what's in their hearts and minds."

Well, your choice of the word "provocation" - what are you suggesting? That I bait them? That I somehow try to make them feel some guilt or responsibility for verses out of their religious texts that a) they didn't write, b) might not even be aware of, and c) probably don't agree with anyway?

I'd wager that these friends of mine are no scholars of the Koran.

I could poke a Catholic with "provocations" and get the same result. One thing I know is not to attack a man's religion. Whatever his religion, he won't like it. I don't believe this is unique to Muslims. And no, my friends would hardly resort to terrorism or threats or violence against me, much as it's tempting to think that all Muslims automatically do so, but I think they would be most displeased at an unprovoked attack on what they believe. Just like anyone else would.

Note the word "unprovoked". As in me going up to them and launching into an unprovoked diatribe about the shortcomings of Islam.

Posted by: Holy Wart at November 6, 2006 8:46 PM

Harranguing customers with political or religious diatribes is against the taxi code of conduct in Australia. They should have taken his license number and reported him immediately.

The same thing happened to me in a Sydney taxi driven by a Muslim - in response to a news item about Israel, he suddenly began a vicious attacks on Jews.

I interrupted him and told him that if he said another word I would take his number and report him.

Silence ensued for the rest of the journey.

Posted by: Deecha at November 6, 2006 10:01 PM

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=oped&file_name=opd2%2Etxt&counter_img=2

"Veils Apologists" by Prafull Goradia

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 7, 2006 2:21 AM

Holy Wart & Remote-Control ,
(Sorry to ther posters for going way OT)
Yes , of course there are lapsed and non-fundamantal 'believers' in every religion , but I contend there to be a major difference between Muslim non-fundamentalists and non-fundamantalists of the Christian faith , being simply that what Christ requires is (you will agree) a pretty high standard of moral behaviour which not all of His followers feel that they can commit to at the outset or at any particular time of their walk with Him , but the correctness and sensibility of what He taught is recognised even if people feel that it is difficult to attain to it . As more maturity is gained , then more of a person's morality (including sexual ... as you noted , a particular area of difficulty for the unconvinced ) will come under Christ's guidance and consequently progress is made towards holier conduct. 'Lord , I believe . Help Thou my unbelief' is a fine prayer indeed .
However in Islam , what is 'fundamantal' is evil and wicked , and the moderate Muslim's progression towards true holiness is in the direction AWAY from anything Mohammed preached , for sanctioning Murder , Opression , Jihad and Hatred are NEVER holy actions . There is NO redeeming work in Mohammed whatsoever , and to call him (self proclaimed , incidentally) a 'Prophet of God' is misinformation of the highest order .
Hope that helps .

Posted by: WeatherPermitting at November 7, 2006 7:09 AM

It seems that a “moderate Muslim” can be charaterized as a Muslim who believes that innocent Infidels should not be beheaded because of Mo cartoons but that the cartoonists and their editors should be. Let’s face it, they all read the same hate, conquer, rape, loot & subdue literature of the Koran and Hadiths, it’s just that the “moderates” have decided they are not currently in a good position to act out their faith. Yes there are those reformists who absurdly call themselves Muslims who think that Islam can be reformed - but they're not kidding anyone but themselves. There is no reason I can see for any non-muslim to respect in the least Islam or "Moderate" Muslims given their beliefs in their beloved hate literature that is responsible for so much bloodshed in the world. This is an extremely dangerous cult which should be recognized as such and banned in all countires that still have the power (given the will) to do so.

Posted by: FM at November 7, 2006 1:16 PM

Holy Wart,

"Well, your choice of the word "provocation" - what are you suggesting? That I bait them? That I somehow try to make them feel some guilt or responsibility for verses out of their religious texts that a) they didn't write, b) might not even be aware of, and c) probably don't agree with anyway?"

The goal of such provocation is not to bait them or make them feel guilty; the goal is to see if there is, as you claim, nothing there to provoke.

If, for example, someone is convinced that because my family lineage comes from the American South and one of my uncles was actually a KKK member, that I must be a crypto-KKK racist myself and harbor certain elements of KKK ideology in my psyche, and if he then starts asking me probing questions designed to ferret out such a crypto-KKK racism in me, what's the harm? I would feel no harm, since I harbor no crypto-KKK racism and in fact consider the KKK ideology to be evil. I might get a little annoyed at the person probing me, but if he is relatively nice & polite about it, I wouldn't mind. And the crucial point is that I would not exhibit any defensiveness or dissembling dancing around the questions -- behaviors that moderate Muslims tend to fall into when they are probed about the evils of the shibboleths of Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (and perhaps also the greatness of Islam in some vague but grand way) that they hold dear in their own casual, beer-drinking way. I would answer my prober's questions clearly and unequivocally condemn the KKK and the Ante-Bellum South and Southern culture that were the primary causes of the horrible American Civil War, and I would not try to shift the blame off onto other sources, or try to exonerate as blameless (much less "perfect") the Southern President, Jefferson Davis. And I certainly would not start to bristle and get a chip on my shoulder for the probing questions.

"I'd wager that these friends of mine are no scholars of the Koran."

They don't have to be. All you have to do is confront them with certain verses, such as 4:34, which has Allah telling Muslim men to beat their women (including their wives) if the man thinks those women are getting too rebellious. Divinely sanctioned wife-beating is sufficiently evil that a subscriber (however passive he may be) to the culture that sanctions it should be called to task for it and should not be let off lightly. You think it's okay for someone to passively enable such a repugnant immoral code? I don't. And that's just one example out of many in the Qur'an.

"I could poke a Catholic with "provocations" and get the same result."

There is nothing in the Catholic catechism or in Vatican II that is blatantly immoral, like the wife-beating verse 4:34, nor anything that is blatantly dangerous for non-Muslims, such as the numerous fighting & killing verses of suras 8 and 9 (among others). You'd have to go plumbing dusty history to to find extra-canonical behaviors of Catholics, like the tried-and-true Leftist & Muslim talking points, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch-Burnings, etc. Anyway, Catholics are not a global problem, exploding in various places in the world. Every month we see new mass-murders by Muslims, and new plots (like the Muslim convert in the UK plotting to mass-murder thousands of innocents).

"Note the word "unprovoked". As in me going up to them and launching into an unprovoked diatribe about the shortcomings of Islam."

One doesn't have to be rude in these "provocative" discussions; one can affect a casual, mellow attitude, but nevertheless stay on point and not be satisfied with mealy-mouthed answers. Of course, there would be a tension between the mellow attitude and the need for unequivocal responses, insofar as if the latter are not forthcoming, one would have to begin to persist a bit; but I think it's possible to remain nice & polite yet also firmly convey that you're not so dumb that you will accept moonshine or sweet-smelling shit for a respectable response to sincere questions.

Posted by: remote_control at November 7, 2006 3:46 PM