I only hate two poeple and karen Armstrong is both of them

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at November 8, 2006 8:38 AM

If by reading pedagogical books and Scriptures alone one could metamorphose, the bookshelf in my house which has Bhagavad Gita and so forth would have long levitated and brought Peace to the entire world.

If koran is the problem, it ought to have incinerated everything around.

When someone went into raptures while reading Shakespeare, Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi said:

" You are moved and stirred as it has become as much yours as it was Shakespeare's".

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 8, 2006 8:43 AM

"Why don't you try reading books by real scholars like Karen Armstrong and John Espesito or others that professors at real universities. Not known bias bloggers, pretending to be scholars."

Mr. Bedier, when do you suppose you'll make the NY Times Bestselllers list?

Considering how active you are on the web lately -- http://whatwouldcharlesmarteldotm.blogspot.com/2006/10/ahmed-bedier-of-cair-on-web.html Mr. Bedier, it seems a tad bit hypocritical of you to be condemning bloggers of any kind, especially one as famously well-educated and well-published on the subject of Islam as Mr. Robert Spencer.

Posted by: Foehammer at November 8, 2006 8:46 AM

From one of Mr. Bedier's comments from my above link:

"Hate bloggers: understand this, you will never be as credible as CAIR. No one cares about your hateful views. You are very shady folks with questionable backgrounds and motives. Continue to live your fantasy on the Internet."

Ah, I absolutely love getting ammunition like this.

Thank you and enjoy the Web.

Posted by: Foehammer at November 8, 2006 8:49 AM

What a wonderful nightmare for Bedier and all the other Bediers you are,Robert.

Posted by: Hugh at November 8, 2006 8:55 AM

I challenge you to find a COMPLETE verse that says only that. You will not find it, why because the word infidel is not found in the Quran, and also because the mistranslated English is not the entire translation of the verse....

Of course, it's a bad translation! I guess the real reason we have idiots committing all kinds of atrocities in the name of Allah is because they have the wrong translation of the Koran. If only these misguided people learn to read 7th century Arabic all of this would be cleared up.

If this isn't a crock then I don't know what is.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 8, 2006 8:57 AM

Shady? SHADY?? I did NOT come from a cesspool of ignorant and backward people to a beautiful and free country that the entire world wants to emulate and emigrate, to subvert another's culture.

This guy is a girlie male like all the girlie males islam produces. He whines and cries more than my granddaughter.

If muslim males were allowed reflection, they would be ashamed of themselves.

Posted by: freewoman at November 8, 2006 8:58 AM

ISLAM IS INDEFENSIBLE and same for their phony prophet. Thus the best that Achmed Bedier can do is tell crafty lies

It sucks to worship a false god and false prophet

Posted by: dennisw at November 8, 2006 9:03 AM

"Thus I look forward to your answer with great eagerness, as it could contain the key to stemming the tide of today's terrorism, and be used to convince Muslims that violent jihad and Islamic supremacism must be definitively rejected."

I, too, would welcome this, and look forward to reading Ahmed Bedier's response to Robert Spencer's questions. Think of the positive difference Mr. Bedier could make in the world, if only he would.

Posted by: Josephine at November 8, 2006 9:11 AM

Robert:

I laughed with schadenfreude when I saw your response to Bedier. Does he even really grasp who he's dealing with?

Wonderfully put; as always.

I foresee a weeping and a wailing and a gnashing of teeth.

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 8, 2006 9:50 AM

Robert
I sometimes wonder if in 1938 leading academics would have entered into discussion with leading proponents of the NAZI ideology.
For many reasons I would have thought that this would have been both pointless and in bad taste.

The anology with Islam, from my point of view, is completely equivalent so why are we entering into duscussion with the proponents of Islam which we, on JW, all know has more in common with Nazism than religeon.

In my point of view if we want to win this war we should be more on the offense, the time for academic niceties is far past - time to play hard ball - lets bring it (islam) into the cold light of day. We require more courage to go out on a limb and call a spade a spade - we may be scorned at first but a forcefull offense shall always overcome a weak defense.

Posted by: johnmac at November 8, 2006 9:57 AM

Re: A question for Ahmed Bedier

It may be true that there are more violent verses in the Bible than in the Koran but the Bible consists of many more books than the relatively short Koran. Further, the Koran is considered (by believers) to be direct dictation from God to Mohammad through Gabriel. For this reason it is not so easy for believers to dismiss Koranic verses that consider the unbeliever guilty (simply because he or she doesn't believe in the belief-system) and which mandate violence against unbelievers and the payment of tribute by unbelievers to believers.

It appears to many non-Muslims that the belief-system conveniently self-confers upon the believer a perception that the believer is superior on the basis of the belief system's absolute truth. This supremacist perception (of the believer) causes them to display much indignation when they are faced with criticism or with facts that contradict their beliefs. Usually the supremacist-emotional response includes accusations of bigotry, etc. against critics of the belief-system.

The truth is that people like Mr. Bedier do not want their belief-system subjected to critical analysis. For many reasons they fear that. However, it is time for a reason-fact based analysis and criticism of their belief-system. The accusations of bigotry etc. against critics of the belief-system are not going to work in the future. It's time to face reality on this matter.

Posted by: Frank at November 8, 2006 9:59 AM

Great work Robert.

Keeping the channel open for Muslim propagandists to put into practice towards their community what they preach to a Western kafir audience is a good idea.

About twenty years ago I showed a book in English by Abul A'la Maududi (Towards Understanding Islam) to the old man who was teaching me Arabic. After translating a few paragraphs for him, he threw the book to the floor in annoyance exclaiming: "This has been written in order to arouse the anger of the people."
This man passed away long ago. He was a devout Muslim, but what he said I don't see reflected anywhere among those CAIR type of people. My impression is that mainstream Islam is very hard-line nowadays.

Posted by: rocky at November 8, 2006 10:10 AM

"the word infidel is not found in the Quran" says Bedier

No, but the word "unbeliever" is.

Same difference.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 8, 2006 10:12 AM

Mr. Bedier-

Unbelievers have every right to criticize your belief-system. Further, it is obvious that a significant portion of Muslim believers consider violence against unbelievers to be true Islam. It is time for a free and open exchange of ideas and opinions on this matter. All beliefs should be critically analysed and no one should be required to accept belief-dogmas as absolute truth. It is clear that many Muslims want the belief-system to be exempt from criticism by unbelievers. This supremacist attitude is at the core of the emotional responses to criticism of the belief-system.

People like Robert are not calling for violence against Muslims, they are calling for honest discussion and debate as to why so many Muslims consider violence against unbelievers to be true Islam. What's wrong with that? (BTW, why do you consider people like me low-lifes?)

Posted by: Frank at November 8, 2006 10:26 AM

Christianity/Judaism: "Thou shalt not murder"

Islam: "Thou shalt murder"

Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain.
Quran (9.111)

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 8, 2006 10:39 AM

Here is a bio of Ahmed Bedier:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/11/16/Tampabay/Trying_to_teach__not_.shtml

Some choice quotes:

Seeking purpose, he began to spend more time at a mosque, the Islamic Society of Pinellas in Pinellas Park. In 2000, he vowed to read the Koran every day and committed to becoming an observant Muslim.

...

"I've been able to see his heart and know that he really is looking for peace and understanding amongst people," said Rabbi Kate Fagan, a chaplain at Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg.

...

"That Ahmed Bedier, he could charm the socks off a rooster," Allen said. "He doesn't raise his voice or fly off the handle. He's married and got kids and all that. He's not going to be strapping bombs on his kids. I'm sure he would never condone that."

Posted by: kamala at November 8, 2006 11:38 AM

johnmac writes: "the time for academic niceties is far past - time to play hard ball"

We can't play hard ball, because our managers, coaches, most of our players, and a good deal of their fans are PC. It may be long past time to play hard ball, but, as Yogi Bera might have said, "You can't do what you can't do."

Posted by: remote_control at November 8, 2006 11:41 AM

Ive been reading the bible in GREEK for a long time (septugient for OT0. To say that there is more violence in the Bible than the Koran is of course completely false. First off the vast majority of violence in the Old Testament is historical and descriptive, it DOESN not say "go kill them" or give other such imperatives to stand for all time but records specific examples where Deity tells Israel to go fight such and such.

As for the NEW TESTAMENT .........GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! OH MY WORD!--if there is a LESS violent relgious document on the earth I would like to see it. The early Christian church was like nonviolent peace protestors for crying out loud!

The gospels talk about peace being better than war
Christ:

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.
Mat 11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:38 And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.
Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

CHRIST HIMSELF WAS SENT TO PREACH:

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to PREACH THE GOSPEL to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture FULFILLED in your ears.

and the writings of Paul ?--all about how you should suffer for Christ. In Philippians Paul specifically tells Christians that you should not fear your persecuters because its a sign of your salvation "and that of God" to them and that it has been given to you to suffer for Christ. There are other verses that imply self defense if fine but nowhere in the bible does it say to 1)be violent "live with all men in peace as far as possible" [Romans 12:18, Hebrews 12:14, Luke 2:14 on and on], or 2) convert by force (read the entire book of Acts which is the recordings of the early Christian church --its all about preaching and avoiding the Romans etc who wanted to kill them at every turn! ) Also in the epistle of 2 Corintians (new testament) Paul who was a major figure of the early church (thats an understatment for he said God appointed him APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES) suffered alot of beatings etc but did not try to form a war party and KILL his enemies, read: 2Cr 11:24 to 2Cr 11:27.

What his response to all the evil that messed up people sent his way (remember ALL he did was preach --that is OPEN HIS MOUTH AND SPEAK as he did in my country of origin Greece (when he went to athens he got up on the main market square where all the philosophers would daily speak and he did the same). HE DID NOT FIGHT ANYONE!

His response to evil men was:

Act 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to PREACH the gospel unto them.
Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to PREACH the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to PREACH the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to PREACH the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 9:16 For though I PREACH the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
2Cr 2:12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to [preach] Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,
2Cr 10:16 To PREACH the gospel in the [regions] beyond you, [and] not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might PREACH him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood...

Finally in the letter to Rome he said:

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Rom 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 IF POSSIBLE, so far as it depends on you, be at PEACE WITH ALL MEN.

Now if one of the MAIN figures of the early church did not say to kill people then if any Christian does not listen to him --who is at fault? The Christian bible or the heretical follower.
The problem with Islam is Jihadists are NOT heretics of Islam are they?

And THAT my dear Ahmed Bedier is why Christianity IS superior to Islam (and so is Judaism!).
Now HONESTLY if I was an ATHEIST I would admit the same thing (I might not agree that Christians act as they should all the time! who does? BUT if we are comparing holy books YOURS are ones (Quran/hadiths) that preach cONQUERING by FORCE and killing those who do not agree with you. Fundamentalist Christians just preach alot !

The Christian bible is about preaching the good news of Christ dying for your sins and forgiving you and of helping the poor (mother tereasa, salvation army) and healing the sick (first north american hosiptals were set up by the church as they were in europe.)

And puleeeeeeeeeeeeease do not try to give me some quotes out of context because I DID finish two thelogical master's degrees on the Christian faith
(I am not a pretend scholar you assume are on these boards---and I believe you KNOW it).

How different are the founder of the Christian faith than YOUR dark lord's teachings!

In kuwait and every other mosques Christians and Jews are CURSED as part of the service. In the Christian church:

1 timothy 2:1 "THEREFORE I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made FOR ALL PEOPLE."
(did you get that? ALL --means everything omiting nothing and nobody).

The struggle in Christianity is purely spiritual (like it is for Buddhists, and Jews ):

Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}

But what is Islam's jihad (struggle) against: only inner jihad? I think Robert Spencer can answer that one!

Therefore I ask you to REPENT and come and join the human race with us --stop your hate. And for God's sake admit the truth about Islam's idea of killing nonmuslims.

ARENT YOU JIHADISTS OUT THERE TIRED OF ALL THE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS? DO YOU THINK IF ALLAH WAS THE TRUE GOD I MEAN REALLY IN YOUR HEARTS--WOULD HE ASK YOU TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU??
Only satan asks that....

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 11:41 AM

THEREFORE (from the above):

THE BIBLE (which commands preaching) IS NOT MORE VIOLENT THAN THE QURAN (which commands killing).

To say otherwise is to insult the inteligence of anybody who can...well...who can READ!

Saying the New Testament is more violent than the QURAN is like saying a LAMB is more vicious than a wolf.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 11:44 AM

Dear Mr. Belder,

Islam is a violation of human rights. It is a cancer upon the human race. It offers nothing that is spriritual and right to the human body. If islam were founded today, the psychiatric societies of the world would classify it as a cult or as a sexually deviant narcisstic disorder. Tell us Mr Belder, what is good in islam? What does it offer? Is it there to fill the shallow emptiness of your existence? Mohammed was a fraud. My little finger has more integrity that that sorry excuse of a human being had in his entire life.

My civilization has been in existence for over 200+ years and we put a man on the moon, forged the elements that make up democracy and wrote the Constitution, the greatest document created. Your cult has murdered innocent people, sided with the Nazi's, approved of despicable acts against women, gays, and other nonbelievers of your BS.

You call us racists? That is like the KKK saying blacks are racist. Thomas Mann said it clearly, "tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. You sir and your cult of death are evil in it's purest sense.

Posted by: Shinigami at November 8, 2006 11:46 AM

Frank wrote:

"It appears to many non-Muslims that the belief-system conveniently self-confers upon the believer a perception that the believer is superior on the basis of the belief system's absolute truth."

Actually, this is also the case with Christianity and some other religions. Thus, it is not the superiority complex alone that is the problem with Islam. Something else about Islam renders most Muslims incapable of that paradoxical balance most Christians are able to attain (and have increasingly learned to cultivate in the last couple of hundred years), between feeling superior as possessors of the absolute truth, and allowing others to find their own way with dignity and respect for their individuality.

One major cause of this difference is the innate ability of Christians to separate church and state. Another is the innate ability of Christians to renounce a religio-military concept of "self-defense". Another is the innate ability of Christians to relinquish the gnostic temptation to control eschatology.

Concerning all three of these abilities, Muslims are psychologically, culturally and institutionally deficient.

Posted by: remote_control at November 8, 2006 11:47 AM

remote_control

HEAR! HEAR!

right on.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 12:09 PM

plus any violent behaviour in a man who claims to be a "Christian" can be corrected by other Christians pointing to the new testament. Can moderate muslims do that for jihadi/radical muslims? Nope because the radicals are not heretical they are just reading it...

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 12:11 PM

Although I disagree with you on 'self defence' If somebody attacks you as a Christian you can defend yourself and of course walk away (if you can). When they bombed the WTF we had every right to fight back .

But I agree with you if by "self defence" some Christians mean "preemptive offense" --that is clearly against the Christian scriptures.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 12:13 PM

hmm ahmed bedier mettions modern the problem is jihadist and countrys like saudi arabia subsribe to a islamic fundelmentalim that dates back to 700 ad along with the attitueds from then just look how they treat weman and just look how they see dar al islam is at war with the rest of the world untill its all the house of islam

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at November 8, 2006 12:33 PM

"Although I disagree with you on 'self defence' If somebody attacks you as a Christian you can defend yourself and of course walk away (if you can)."

What I mean is that Christians don't have a doctrine of collective military self-defense to defend an entity called "Christianity", and -- except for wackos like David Koresh -- don't even contemplate it. Why? Because they have learned to entrust their self-defense as citizens to the secular authorities, police and national military.

Muslims, on the contrary, do have a a doctrine of collective military self-defense to defend an entity called "Islam". That simply has to go, lock, stock and barrel -- by hook (voluntarily) or by crook (we force them).

Posted by: remote_control at November 8, 2006 1:34 PM

I'm really sick and tired of hearing about the violence supposedly found in the Bible. Many Christians, including myself, believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant word of God per 2 Timothy 3. We don't fudge it to make it sound more appealing to unbelievers.

The Old Testament passages that speak of violence, namely those pertaining to the conquest of Canaan, applied to specific geographical boundaries and people groups. Christian scholars have universally interpreted this conquest to be typological of both the day of judgment and the believer's spiritual conquest of sin within himself. So the Bible does teach a spiritual jihad (cherem in Hebrew), but not a physical one. The Old Testament is interpreted literalistically, not literally. It is therefore a typology of spiritual things in the church age. Moreover, the commands to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev 19:18), are found in the Old Testament as well as the New.

Posted by: PRCalDude at November 8, 2006 1:50 PM

This rodeo clown Bedier just doesn't know when to quit while he's behind...

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2006 1:58 PM

remote_control said:

"What I mean is that Christians don't have a doctrine of collective military self-defense to defend an entity called "Christianity", and -- except for wackos like David Koresh "

Excellent. I misread your statement. Anyway I totally agree. ive been around enough different Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, all KINDS of evangelicals and even fundamentalists) and noe of them have a doctrine of collective military self defence to defend "Christianity" --because there is simply no command to do that in the Bible. The bible New Testament says help the state and dont commit crimes.

Koresh of course was no Christian --he told his followers he was Jesus returned or something (of course he lived like a muslim sultan with all the women in the compound!)

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 2:21 PM

noe = none . opps pardon my spelling

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 2:22 PM

Allies is right. Christ specifically said "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." There is no taking up arms for Christendom. We war against the spiritualities and powers, not against our neighbors.

Posted by: PRCalDude at November 8, 2006 2:35 PM

PRCalDude yep and THATS why I dont understand psychos like Rosie "radical christians are as bad as radical muslims" O'Donnell. Im getting off topic but I am so disgusted with obvious illogical antiChristian sentiment. God forbid they say anything bad about Islam which WILL kill people and strap bombs to their behinds to do it. What do Chrisitian "fundamentalists" do --hand out JESUS LOVES YOU tracts on the streetcorners and basically preach alot? sheesh!

I think the liberal anti-american ant-christian left are major bigots in the world today. I am in Canada and Ive lost many Canadian friends for defending America (not defending George Bush --just defending AMERICA). I even had a few fools who laughed and said they agreed with the Iranian prez that America should be wiped off the earth. These pinheads had no concept about what America and democracy is all about.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 2:44 PM

When I see such fools bother protestant fundamentalists I always stand up in class and say "yeah well I am one too" (though I am Orthodox)
If they bad mouth Jews I say "Yeah well I am one too (though I am a gentile). We have to stand up with them no more holocausts. never again.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 2:45 PM

The way some things are going in England for example the govt there acts as if they want to kill all Christians and support all Muslims (though its purely out of fear).

Read the excellent article by Melanie Phillips(author of bestseller Londonistan):

September 7, 2006
How Britain is turning Christianity into a crime
at link:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013958.php

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 2:53 PM

THE BIBLE (which commands preaching) IS NOT MORE VIOLENT THAN THE QURAN (which commands killing).

Posted by: aynrandgirl at November 8, 2006 3:03 PM

I have a feeling that we'll hear more condescension from Mr. Bedier, but we WON'T hear anything in the order of a real answer to RS's question. It's why Islam does not allow a free-flow of ideas in its ideology. One cannot question it, period. Those who do question it are "the lowest," and that's that. Those who question it are ignorant, hate-filled, and any other adjective they feel apply to someone they feel is beneath contempt.

But NEVER will they ever answer your questions, Mr. Spencer. The fact is, they CAN'T.

Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 8, 2006 4:04 PM

THE ALLIES SHALL WIN said:

"PRCalDude yep and THATS why I dont understand psychos like Rosie "radical christians are as bad as radical muslims" O'Donnell. Im getting off topic but I am so disgusted with obvious illogical antiChristian sentiment. God forbid they say anything bad about Islam which WILL kill people and strap bombs to their behinds to do it. What do Chrisitian "fundamentalists" do --hand out JESUS LOVES YOU tracts on the streetcorners and basically preach alot? sheesh!"

I think that this behavior is indeed reason to believe in a real devil and demons. If not, then there would be a clear, logical distinction between what is good and beneficent, and what is evil and malevolent. Satan will fight what is good and right, and will seek to guide everyone to fight it with him. The fact that the obvious distinctions are clouded in so many minds is obvious evidence of real, honest-to-goodness EVIL in the World.

Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 8, 2006 4:38 PM

satan and allah buddies in blood

YAHANNBLIIMU:

yes I agree with you my friend. If you scroll up to my long scripture quoting post (the really long one) you'll see the last thing I wrote to Mr Bedier was a statement that:

ARENT YOU JIHADISTS OUT THERE TIRED OF ALL THE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS? DO YOU THINK IF ALLAH WAS THE TRUE GOD I MEAN REALLY IN YOUR HEARTS--WOULD HE ASK YOU TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU??
Only satan asks that....

I know my agnostic friends look at me strangely when I mention that maaaaybe there is a devil but hey come on when you read people freaking out about some little old guy handing out a tract about "jesus loves you" but saying the jihadists are just "misunderstood poor people" you have to wonder! Shoebat the exterrorist said that the vast majority of the suicide bombers were from middle class families not poor.

The jihadists want two things personally when they kill (according to him and my exmuslim Turkish friend agreed):

1) a GUARANTEE of paradise because Islam only gives you a sliding scale (whereas Christians get salvation thru belief in Christ)

2) lots and lots of illicit SEX. In sunni islam (unlike Shiites with their 'temporary marriages') Sunnis are very controlled even IN marriage regarding sex (in Christianity you can have all the sex you want IN you marriage remember).

I know #2 sounds gross but Micheal Coren of the National Post had an ex terrorist tell him just that (and the link is here on jihad watch):

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013911.php

click on Spencer's link to the National Post and read the whole article. It would be funny re: #2 if it wasnt true.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 5:28 PM

aynrandgirl
AYNRANDGIRL yes I know and I think they are nuts to think like that. but I agree with you: when muslims have been trained to think that EVEN PREACHING something different then your religion is punishable by death it will lead to them killing christians (and other nonmuslims) or to force them to pay the jidsya tax.

Christianity (and bascially any other thought: buddism, judaism, sikhism, hinduism etc )
does not do that.

For example I really like your handle "AYN RAND" in aynrandgirl. I know she was an atheist and I am an orthodox Christian but I think she was really cool lady...why? Because in my relgion I seek out wisdom where I can find it and frankly Ayn Rand wrote some things about taking personal responsibiltiy and freedom that a very true.

In islam Ayn Rand is not welcome of course and is currently banned in varius areas you simply cannot get her books in Saudi Arabia. But you can buy them anywhere in countries with Christian and other populations. In Greece near the monastery I visited they ACTUALLY have her books with ohter philosophy texts and religious books. Why is that?

Because Christians dont strap bombs to their butts
thats why.

Anwyay Aynrandgirl we are all in this together. I just hope its not too late to save our countries!
I believe the old Allies will rise again as country after country is forced to see what islam is really all about but unfortunately they might have to go through some rough times with the dirty suitcase bombs (6 of them ) that islamic terrorists are said to have in europe and/or US right now.

Of course they could skip learning the hard way and just contact our friend Robert Spencer and other such scholars and TALK WITH HIM.

I am hoping the leaders out there are reading these posts by Spencer and at 32000+ hits a day I think they are as well as the rest of us.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 5:39 PM

YAHANNBLIIMU said:

"The fact that the obvious distinctions are clouded in so many minds is obvious evidence of real, honest-to-goodness EVIL in the World."

chillingly true.

"Sieg heil" anyone? in Obsession muslims radicals copy the whole thing down to the salute.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 5:42 PM

Could you please therefore provide an Islamic refutation of the arguments of Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, As-Suyuti, Qutb, Maududi, Malik, and Humaid?

To think there are Muslims that believe non-Muslims like Armstrong and Esposito can know and explain their faith better than these guys...

Posted by: yadayada at November 8, 2006 5:58 PM

Cry for Jihad
I bear repeating for the respondents of this segment also that when ever there is news of any killing or loss of life is involved in some incident. Our Media is always ready to put it under the lights of high held prism of terrorism. Their services are always very quick to respond and are happy to present that news in the refined, crystal goblet of ‘Global war on terror’.

There are numerable dissident groups found in all the religions; operating all over in the world. Most of them; keep on terrorising the innocent people and are involved in remorseless killing. But the word ‘Terrorism’ is invariably used to single out the Muslims only. Their religious belief of Jihad is exceptionally maligned. Muslim is projected as the people; who love death. They consider all the non-Muslim as non-believers and under the commandment of Koran; are ordained to kill all the non-believers when and where ever they are found? The term ‘Jihad’ has become a catch word and a quick way of ascribing of any news of killing toward Islam.

But we find that Jihad in Islam is described very differently. Jihad is said to be an earnest effort; put forward by an individual into reformation of ones self or say; striving in the way of God to reform ones inner self to be a better person. Personal reformation takes the priority over reformation of society. Subject of ‘killing of an oppressor’ or ‘killing in defence’ comes at the very last on the list. So in principle, it may not be fair to ascribe any random killing of innocents to the religion Islam and malign the Muslims as such.

Any how, in the ‘contest of killing and jihad’, we have to see that:
a. Is Jihad fostered and cherished by Muslims only or do we also find some equivalents found in other religions which may be comparable and they also tantamount to the same meanings as ‘Jihad’?

b. Are the people leading their lives in other religions i.e. in Christianity, Judaic, Buddha or Hindu societies; have some how been so thoroughly humbled and emasculated or say; removed or civilised to that degree that they have no more any urge left; to think of killing any one. Not even when they are oppressed to the limit or in their self defence; as a lost resort.

c. And what are the actual ‘facts and figures’ and practices found on the ground. Where thousand and thousands of people are being put to death. Their properties are destroyed and children and women being massacred and maimed. Is this being done by Muslims only? If not, then it is being done by whom and on what account?
The killing prescribed as a lost resort in Islam in defence or say;to raise arm against the oppressor is too mild an action and looks a peace promoting enactment; than the commandments found in other religions.

Surprisingly, commandments found in other religions are much harsher than one can imagine.
For Instance the Christianity prescribes an instant killing of a person who worships any other god, other than the Lord. (See the links at * & **).
'Eye for an eye’ and ‘killed with the sword to be killed by the sword’ and like wise versions found in other religions are the subjects to be pondered upon; but through the colour less glasses only.

Today we find that in Middle Eastern countries where, predominantly Muslim nations live are blazing in wars.
The entire Middle Eastern society seems to be engulfed in an atmosphere of anarchy and violence. Killing and destruction is prevalent every where. Life is; but a misery.

Who is the oppressor here? Who is the invader? Who is being killed and who is at rampage to kill?

Why we hear a cry for Jihad from the activists (decedent groups) in the Middle Eastern world? Where as; the rulers of the area seems to be some heads of police states and prefer to remain quite and submissive?

What is the real cause or motivation behind this controversial out cry; known as the cry of extremism?

We all know that leading organisations like, Hamas and Hezbollah; found in Middle East are the product of continuous oppression, deprivation and persecution spread over a many long, long years. They are the resistance organisations, fighting for their freedom on behalf of their people and liberation of their home land and preferred way of life.

Spirit behind their cause and motivation is worth exploring.

History of freedom is universal and full of writings; written with the flowing blood of freedom fighters. Every sacrifice where the blood flows is counted a positive step forward and glorifiable in the eyes of martyrs by all the nations. Aim is; that it should go on; till the time the oppressor surrenders.
Denial of freedom is death. Means of survival are limitless.

The civilised world is to think cool for this and respect and reach for this cause; known as 'sacred cause' behind each suicidal fatality.
Islam is peace loving religion and follows the laws of nature. Nature does not accept any suppression. For any suppression forced beyond the acceptable limit. You are bound to get equal and opposite recoil action.

But in the case of these suicidal actions; Islam has got nothing to do with this. In the Middle Eastern theatre; It’s a bout between oppressed and oppressors only.
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Links recommended:
*The Bible: The Lord here commands the destruction of all the places where people worship other gods. There appears not a shred of religious tolerance here! ...
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htmihad is never said to be doomed or
**The Bible: Condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. ... When he's done with the killing everyone will know that he is the Lord. ...
skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html -condemned.
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Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar at November 8, 2006 7:59 PM

Ive been studying Christianity for 15 years and have 2 Masters in Theology in it, and to say Christianity "proscribes death" to whoever leaves it is absolutely false. Your bible quotes "an eye for an eye" is talking about capital crimes (if somebody kills somebody punish the evildoer).

You said:
There are numerable dissident groups found in all the religions; operating all over in the world. Most of them; keep on terrorising the innocent people and are involved in remorseless killing

Really? Where? Who? Like Robert Spencer always says
give me details. Are there roving bands of protestant christians strapping bombs to their asses?
Catholics razing mosques because their pope was threatened by muslims?
Orthodox killing muslims?

No. Lets be honest --Islam is doing that.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 8:11 PM

As for Islam following the "laws of nature" --if you mean the law of the jungle then I agree.
As for peace loving well my exmuslim Turkish friend would tell you otherwise. He left Sunni Islam and his dad and brother said "if we ever find you we will kill you as the Qur'an commands us"

I also had a southern baptist friend here at the University of Toronto who left HIS church to become a Sikh (his girlfriend is sikh and he had to convert to marry her). His parents were angry, his mom cried , his dad was mad etc etc. But you know no body threatened his life based on the bible. And believe me a Southern Baptist KNOWS his bible. If they felt the bible said that they might have been tempted to kill him. But the bible says:

1Cr 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.

You see, its quite clear that in Christianity you do not kill people who leave the faith. To say that this is some form of Christian belief reveals either a willful obsifucation or unfamiliarity with the scriptures.

Anyway you know and I know if Christian believed anything like that or anything like Islam does it would be on the news every day.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 8:19 PM

as for the old testament (Torah) its referring to what Israel did not what Christians should do 9who are under the new testament). As for jewish people --if they believed that they wouldnt be defenders in the middle east they would be attackers. But Israel ONLY responds when they are attacked ever notice that? They have every right to defend their small sliver of land for crying out loud.
As for jewish biblical interpretation the TALMUD is equivalient with the Torah which also describes that Torah commandments (the ones in your links about Israel at war 1000s of years ago) was for THAT TIME not today.

On the other hand please read robert spencers books:

the hadiths of Islam which act in somewhat the same way as the talmud for the torah are commands for ALL TIME.

Listen I would be the first one to want a peaceful Islam. I live in toronto. We had 17 'moderate' muslims with no criminal records half of them born and raised here try to bomb various places in our city (the mounties intercepted them in time).
christians (and jews) dont do that because its not in their faith. period.
CNN estimated that about thousands of jihadists are in camps training throughout the world. Do you think pentecostals are out there training in camps to kill unbelievers? Of course not and we all know that. (Thats why rosie odonell feels free to condemn Christianity --there are no death threat fatwas in Christianity (or Judaism, Buddism, Sikhims, hindusm you name it).

We 'kafir' are not willing to believe in the lie that Islam is like any of those other religions.

I recommend www.mychristianblood.org which posts daily the atrocities that muslims do in the name of Allah DAILY.

What are Fundamentalists Christians doing daily?
Reading the bible, going on TV and preaching (to vote republican!), trying to ban porn on TV etc all thru LEGAL and DEMOCRATIC means. Why?
Because jesus said "render unto cesear what is cesars and God what is Gods"
I bet there is no "skeptics bible for Islam" by the skepticsbible group I wonder why?

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 8:29 PM

Muslims are welcome to discuss here but please admit if you are muslim and feel free to write Robert Spencer if you are offended about what we talk about regarding Islam here. He would be more than willing to discuss it with you. Im sorry to say that in Islamic apologist sites they will NOT welcome kafir (like me) to discuss the faith there. Just like Saudi Arabia does not allow any churches in Arabia but Christian west allows mosques all over the place without limit. Even the Vatican has a huge mosque within visual distance of the Pope. Who is the intolerant ones but the Muslims?

Next thing you will tell me besides Christians having apostate killings (hahaha sorry thats soooo funny) is that we are allowed like Muhammed to have SEX with 9 year old girls! Muhammed married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her when she was 9. He also married and had sex with his daughter in law.
Soooo next youll tell me that okay right? Or that Jews kill Christian youths and use their blood for matzvah bread???

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 8, 2006 8:38 PM

A back ground; Just to understand why we are stuck with violence; (nick named) jihad in Middle East.

Wishing Middle East a better Future

Nectar and fragrant delights are the divinely blessings, ordained by Almighty God to the bees to receive a feast of regale and delicacy from the flowers. Bee gets this as a pleasant reward while serving the divinely mechanism of nature; of transferring the pollen of flowers to the stigma. Bees may not be aware of it that God almighty, the creator has so well designed and equipped them to serve the purpose of productivity as a regnant of ecosystem on our adorable planet…Earth. Bees enjoy the nectarous drink and ambrosial feed. They spend their pleasant time in the fragrant surroundings while performing the delicate job of eco in nature. This is a guaranteed reward of nature as long the cause is served and bees do not destroy the synthesis, beauty, colour and sweet smells of flowers.

On the other hand, Locust or green fly or caterpillars squander and waste the flagrant flowers by eating up and destroying them. Their greed and act of rampage earns them only vexation and nectar turned into gall. These assailants always leave their bad smell behind. The pleasure, the sweetness and tastes of nectarous, ambrosial feast and basking in the perfumy surroundings is little known to them.

Like wise, few centuries back when most of the world was primitive; European nations were rich in industrial knowledge, and were equipped with skills and technology. In quest of markets to sell their product they made great voyages.
Most of their destinations were in far off, uncivilised, primitive world. While selling the product they also transferred some user’s knowledge and know how to the buyers. By doing this they were serving the cause of God to spread the knowledge and disseminate the light to the darker world.

In return they use to come back home loaded with riches and merchandised of far off lands. These riches were the pleasant rewards like the nectar bestowed to bees for carrying out their angelic duties.

In the past this unspoken covenant of serving the cause by western nations was seen credible. In the process the recipients learned and gain knowledge and voyagers amassed mountain of wealth and riches. Back home, general living in Europe was transformed and once thatched roof buildings were seen turned into lofty high rising…dwellings.

Depending upon the influence established in their trading domains, different European countries started exploiting the host countries and wade their ways to settle there in on permanent basis. New plans were formulated to conquer the world and bring the lucrative lands in their folds as well as to pillage the spoils and amass wealth. Various methods were tried to subjugate and emasculate the local chieftain and natives. With the increase in the greed and race to control and grab the land; local chieftains and tribes were very tactfully pitched against each other and famous technique of ‘divide and rule’ was the order of the day. Most of the countries of South America, Middle East, Africa, Indian subcontinent and Far East started becoming colonies of foreign powers. Thus a colonial era came into existence.

The new settlers brought in their own administrative set up and enforced their own rules to gain administrative control. Local languages learning increased and slowly the institutions for education, and centres for establishment of law and order started taking place. Roads and communications improved. Locals were also engaged in administrative set ups. The once wild countries now, started getting into orderly shape, with a western touch. This was befitting and was going well in a way. Although all the ‘going out’ from such countries in the form of wealth, riches and merchandise etc were much more than what was being received in; in the form of improving of system in the countries, their roads, communication and state of administrative order.

God has created a balance world and loves fairness in the business of give and take by his people. The Koran, (the latest book of instruction of God) on the subject of balance and justice, says:
Ch: 57 (Al Hadid) v 26
“Verily, We sent Our Messengers with manifest Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that people may act with justice;...Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty”.

As the time passed, in order to extend the control and to avail full domination of colonies, many other methods were also adopted. To coerce the natives to adopt a western way of life, the tool of Christianity; the religion of the subjugating western powers, was also brought in and was vastly used. It worked successfully and conversion to Christianity by the western Christian priests at a massive scale is seen is on records in such colonies. With the help of Christianity a full domination was achieved in all the colonies; from American continent, to Africa, Indian subcontinents and to the Far East. The famous African shibboleth fits the situation; ‘they gave us the Christianity but took away our piece of land’,

This was followed by a full occupation, by using the armed forces. Military cantonments, strong built government buildings, forts and other strong holds were built. Although the entire Middle East was also in occupation but because of presence of the Muslims Holy cities of Mecca and Medina and some old strong holds of Ottoman Empire were still live and effective in Iraq Syria and Turkey; there was a limited conversion to Christianity in Middle East.

This phase is stretched on a long period of time. The colonial western powers like England, France, Spain and smaller countries like Portugal and Nether land also held their colonies operated on full scale and extracted all the riches and wealth of these colonies; depriving the native of their rights till such time that these were fully squeezed and depleted.
Enough is enough and God, could not see their hold no further. Before it was stretched too far; God almighty gave a stir; right here in Europe; a man like Hitler came into action. He stirred and toppled the colonial bases at home and this eruption turned into WWII. Resultant; there were untold Atrocities committed and millions of people including colonial forces perished. Losses were so huge that it forced all the European colonial powers to pack up from their colonies. More than forty enslaved countries were set free. One wonders who could be crowned as victorious or leader in this operation of freedom and salvation?

After WWII, there came a run of cold period: then came a fall of Soviet Empire. Soviet Union packed up and retreated from Afghanistan. The vibrant proxies like Pakistan were in play and in full action to push forward the new American agenda. Soviet were also forced to say good by to her various coerced states of her former Empire and they were released of Soviet Shackles.

After the fall of Soviet Union and having the cold war phase also ended, World has ended up in the lap of the lone super power--United States. United States supremacy seems to be bent to take the world for a big ride of –US heavens called ‘New American Century’. This is era of ‘advance technology and information and the flood gates of information are open. Common man is in access of it. The abundance of all sorts of information demands sifting of the clues to find the truth. To control and block the flow of true information or spread misinformation; this has given a birth to the new think tanks of Neocons to devise their policy of ‘Fallacy and Deception’. This policy is very keenly being revered by United States and her other allied’.

In order to avail the hegemony in the world and to establish US Empire, a phoney war; in the name of ‘Global war on terror’ is on. To push forward the agenda of American Empire and bring all the lands; rich in world economic resources into American fold; a huge number of armed forces are in operation, in Middle Eastern theatre. We live fully enslaved to the well stretched clutches of media and find ourselves in a full grip of it. To keep the public opinion as favourable and to cover up the atrocities being committed at abroad by our armed forces; new rules of exception on ‘self devised morality base’ are frequently carved. Various provisos to avail a favourable public opinion are skilfully formulated and modified on daily bases. This is coercing us to live a life hung between terror and death, while leaving us with no clues to sift for the truth or source of information fed to us.

There seems to be now only two super powers, in operation in the world; ‘United States’ and ‘public opinion’. Former is at war with the other but; it is facing lots of difficulties to win over to keep the public opinion in Neocons camps.

US forces in the face of resistance and resilience put up by local decedent groups are also facing a scenario of defeat in Iraqi and Afghanistan theatre. Signs are very much visible.
To create an eruption in the ranks and files of decedents pitched against US; Ralph Peters a Neocons member has very conveniently floated an idea of carving the ‘Blood borders’ in Middle East. This may be against the well seated old British colonial rules of division of local communities carved after WWII. But it has the potential to dustup an upheaval in Middle East for times to come.

Wishing Middle East a better future may seem to be a far cry; till some times that God also finds it as; enough is enough and some devoted man appears in Americas and stir the home base; and world is depolarised. The People like Robert Murray are already predicting ‘the decline and fall of US Empire’.
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Love for all, Hatred for None

Posted by: A Khokar at November 8, 2006 8:43 PM

If our aim of our discussion on this website is to understand and resolve the painful issues that we are facing in society and do not want to fall in the trap of people; exaggerating and spreading misinformation for their vested interests; then it is must that in the iterest of peace and harmony among the societies that we live we should explore with wisdom to reach to the bottom of truth:
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When the hope is also lost.

The grand scheme of Imperialistic dream, ‘The Project for New American Century’ (PNAC), in the description of its fundamental propositions, gave out a master plan of racking up of all the territories containing the world critical economic resources to bring them into American fold. This also entails a task for the American forces to secure all the routes, ways and certain lands, considered as stepping stones, leading to or around such havens.

The guide line to execute the plan of affective subjugation of natives of the intended lands, can be best described in words of a well known Neocons author, Ralph Peters as; “The defector role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those end, we will do a fair amount of killing”

Most of the lands marked for such exploitation are situated in and around the Arab world. They have the history of corrupt oppressing regimes imposed on their public. Once they used to be the civilised dominant power in the world. But with the break up of their Ottoman Empire, they have since, gone into some hibernation state and are still stuck in their old century woven shells. Their social fabrics are weak and the native generally content to live a life style of some gone centuries; destitute and primitive. Their vulnerability can very easily be exploited.

Often with the western vested interests, they are systematically instigated and supported to rabble-rouse against their imposed rulers. They are always seen engaged in some sort of a show down of embroilment with their governments. Such continuous anarchy keeps these states at the brink of collapse all the time and at the mercy of rich western nations. Once subjugated, they may form part as multiple local forces and are assigned new tasks to act as proxies.

These proxy rulers don’t represent or speak for their people. They are part of an artificial structure formed to govern but stay fully emasculated and bowed at the feet of oppressing, foreign power. The governments with no approval among the masses; end up creating unrest for people in the streets and decedent groups start emerging.

Ruling bodies being at the mercy of their foreign masters, (occupier in some cases) become abettor and loyal henchmen. While the rulers remain busy amassing wealth the decedent groups keep on growing large.

Money comes in, in abundance in form of Aid, etc. Although monies so received come with the strings attached and many dictates. But it is mostly eaten up by the rulers where the oppressors with the intent keep their eyes closed. This creates a huge gulf, found in between the common man in the street and rulers. The ruling bodies at lower levels resort to their brutish designs and create an atmosphere of enormity. Savage rules of tribalism are enforced which encourage killing and human rights are totally ignored... Masses remain deprived and uneducated with no jobs and very minimal income to live on. A sense of desperation, deprivation and discrimination prevails every where.

Where the people in the street are unable to revoke the installed government, they join the decedent groups and try to emerge as street power. On realising that a strong foreign hand is operation behind their rulers. They suspect foreign hands as real cause of all of their deprivation and afflictions. For the obvious reasons the rulers along with these foreign known hands backing them are declared their enemy no 1.

The desire to oust the imposed rulers and eliminate the interest of foreign powers they start grouping up in dissent. To crush this rebellion the rulers move in but these groups go under ground.
The groups need funds to survive. These funds are mostly generated locally. Other groups and neighbouring interested governments may also come forward with their emulations on required bases.
To remain popular among masses they keep on emerging above the streets, to mark their presence as well as to score their success. They carry out such moves which cause disruption in local government functioning and to jeopardize the interests/ setups of foreign forces.

To fight the enemy they need a regular supply of arms and ammunition and other equipment. This requires bigger flow of funds. Mostly they have very meagre resources at hand and their actions remain limited. In order to strike effectively and give a deep scar and also catch the attention of international media, the local charismatic scholars /leaders or Mullah may join up these groups. These new entrants may set up new doctrines and administer such belief, which push forward their cause, i.e. to prepare the youth to become a ‘mobile bombs’, the well known suicide bombers are the product of such desperate doctrinarian. Suicide Bomber is a; deprivation ridden, poor man pushed too far; When he believes that hope is also lost and is left with his lost resort; to retaliate by …sacrificing, even his own life and making a strong weapon out of his own soul.

This may seem stretching too far but these heinous acts of suicide, when become the top stories of media and an out cry of wide condemnation is felt all around. At the same time the oppressor powers are also seen budging, and softening their stances. Absurd; it may seem but this becomes the success story. A glorious achievement; an event to celebrate and glorify the work of suicide bombers.

This is a universal phenomenon found in the parts of world where ever the foreign oppressors are in operation. Islamist in the Middle East, Tamil Nado in Sirilanka, Mao and Kashmiri in India, and many more organisations operating in Far East and in South America, invariably they all resort to same ideology.

Islam, Christianity, Judaic or any other religion all condemn such subversive activities out rightly... They are as such not playing any major part in it. Religion is just a victim if these heinous acts. Some time the clerics may respond and may stir up the masses; but just in defence only.

This is only a war fought by the oppressor’s forces that they widely triumph their evil designs and strive desperately to achieve their goals of greed, by fighting and massacring the destitute peoples in thousands.

Summery:
* Here agenda of oppressor force, is securing the planned hegemony and bring the countries set as targets to their folds of greed.

* The corrupt governments are the local stooges installed to act as abettors of greedy foreign forces.

* The destitute street fighters along with the under group dissidents are the creators of havoc and chaos, fighting for their survival and to evict their oppressors.

Often this unrest is seen escalating into major wars between the greedy oppressors, their local abettors and desperate and discriminated victims.

This all has got nothing to do with any religion! Not in the name of Islam in any case.

We should not be naïve to go with the stories skilfully carved by media and stay hung in between. Media and their exponents are most of the time; well paid up conflict creators and do not let you go to the bottom of the things.

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Love for, Hatred for none
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Posted by: A Khokar at November 9, 2006 5:05 AM

Bedier certainly has become obsessed with Robert, hasn't he -- trying to engage him directly and indirectly. I look forward to seeing his response to Robert's question which will likely only end up proving how out of his intellectual depths he is.

Citing Esposito and Armstrong as authoritative and unbiased. What a joke!

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 9, 2006 8:28 AM

Ahmed Bedier is very good at practicing Taqiyya and so are other muslims on Spencer's site.

The most oppressive forms of government are and always have been Islamic ones. Shiara law counts muslims as one and others (kafir) as half or 1/4 so immediately we have a system where somebody who is not muslim is treated very badly and as a farm animal. As the blind shiek said in the obsession video: 'kafir in an islamic state are like cows you can enslave it or kill it"

Christianity has never oppressed the way Islam has AND CONTINUES TO DO. When missionaries came to the new world they preached to the natives but never forced them to convert. What the old world governments (britian, spain etc) DID do was forcibly take land from them. But the governments were not Christian but emerging secular governments that we have today in the West. This is obvious from even a passing understanding of the west.

There is not greaer evil in the world today than ISLAM (ISLMAOFASCISM). Islam EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING was always about mass FORCED conversions BY THE SWORD. Muhammed himself was a bloodthirsty murdering warlord (and coward because he never fought on the front lines). Other religious founders were not like that: Moses, Jesus, buddha etc began their ministries by preaching and discussion. They were spiritual people. Muhammed was a physical person.

There is more commands of death and killing the kafir in the hadiths and in the Qur'an then any religious texts of other faiths. If we are truly to have love for all and hate for none. Then the only way for that to happen is for Islam to be wiped off the face of the Earth if moderate muslims cannot reform it. And the truth is you cannot reform a faith that has its core texts filled with commands to forcibly take over the world and force by the sword conversions. It is a relgion of pure hate. Of course no religion is perfect in its representations by its followers but only in Islam is 'perfection' reached by actually committing crimes and breeaking the 10 commandments especially about coveting and murder (different from self defence killing!).

To offend an Islamic state all you have to do is be beside them and not be muslims. lets be honest. There is no greater evil philosophical system in the world today. The Nazis would have been proud at all the mayhem done today in the name of hating the jewish people.

Some quotes from the evil Quran:

Fighting

Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

So we see CLEARLY unlike any other faith or philosophy in the world (except for Nazism): Islam preaches forcible violence right from the beginning, right from the get go as the Americans say in order to conquer the world.

There is simply no equivlalent in the jewish,christian,sikh,buddist etc faith.

Only islamofascists dance around and scream allah ackbhar and slice peoples throats. What other relgions doing now? nothing they are trying to live their lives. Why do not the moderate muslims rise up and condemn islamofascism if its not a true representation of Islam. Because they know in their hearts it is a true representation of Islam.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 9, 2006 10:48 AM

it apairs that humanity has a capacity and active trait for belief.as a noun.compare it to love,hate, compassion,loyalty,ect.human traits which make the person.rebbe nachman from breslov mentions that its better for a person to be nieve and believe in nonsense and also the truth than to be overly criticle and throw away the truth together with the falshood.the baby with the bathwater so to speak.hey a person can force himself to believe in stupidity.its mealable in a way.of course this will make you stupid.now if we speak of what brainfood is fed to a child it becomes more involved still.in my meager contact with muslems and there beliefs i'm left speechless.the western culture does not seemingly have a clue to whats going on.untill the western nations arouse from there slumber a great deal of harm will apparently befall.i for do not want to be friends with the muslems.perhaps if some reformation were to take place.but i dont give a dam.thats there problem.not mine.

Posted by: cowfy at November 9, 2006 2:43 PM

Dear Robert Spencer,
Hi,
In response to your subject questionnaire; I would like to comment as follow;-

In western political arena and its periphery, Jews and Christians go hand in hand and keep rubbing their shoulders for their enigmatic motives together. But for last 2000 years Christians have not been able to convince Jews that, the prophet Jesus, the Christian picked up and follow, was actually Jews own reformer; which Israelite failed to recognise.

Jesus was out rightly rejected by Israelite. He was put on the cross to die a humiliating death. How unfortunate are Israelites (Jews); they were the chosen people of God. God gave them the book. A follow up service was also catered for, and God very generously kept on sending many more prophets among them, just to keep Israelite on the track. Succeeding religions are not that fortunate to avail such like facility of ‘track guarding’.

This is God design that truth is always upheld; all the times in a very clear, vivid, and distinguished form. You need to make; just a candid leap to reach for it. Jews know about Christianity very well, same is the case of Christian that they know Islam in details. But there is a mind set which is very well guarded with the vested interests, at all the times and made sure that it stays twisted at all the levels. Any cross over is forbidden. Then there is lot of business of wealth and estate involved in these arenas. There are economic empires erected on the foundation of twisted minds. The prestige, the splendour, opulence and pomp and show of these fogy empires, all simply restrict us to accept the truth knocking so loud at our doors. A tremendous courage, is required to step out of delude and cross over.

Your study with a particular preconception; in this case, of Islam or its jurisprudence or fatawas of some ulemas; may not be called relevant study to find ‘truth offered by Islam; but a process under taken to sift for the clues by turning all the stones; ignoring and passing by all the significant portions and cherry picking only few which are found covetable or they aid and affirm the negative held perception. This exercise keeps you happy and… you remain elated.

To bless his people with guidance on to the right path…It is God’s own prerogative. This can be achieved through earnest prayers and by remaining always knelt before him. Even the deep studies and research may not stand a guarantee to find the truth. Sir Atten Borough (BBC); a well known renowned authority on study of nature and existence of life and mammals on this planet; also a religious man, could sift through; all the possible realities of Mother Nature and of life on planet. He discovered a lot and offered us mountains of knowledge but failed to recognise the existence of hands of God; in their creation.

Islam is the only religion, which confirms the previous teachings of God; i.e. the early form of Islam revealed to Abraham*; the commandments for Judaic society revealed to Moses* and later reformation of Judaic teachings carried out by Jesus*, i.e. Christianity. Recognition of all the previous commandments of God by Islam is unique. It is obligatory on all the Muslims to believe in these commandments. Muslims have no hesitation in believing them; provided these are found in original form and are being observed in true spirit by their respective followers; as prescribed in their books and are duly reflected in the Holy Koran.

The commandments and instructions revealed to Prophet Muhammad* at the time of wars or times of afflictions faced by the prophet and the believers; were the revelations of Almighty; with the special aim to address those particular wars or events; i.e. How best to conduct them, how to deal with the opponents or how best to wade through a particular calamity at the time.

This should be borne in mind that when a prophet is sent by God to the people; it becomes an era of special blessings of God’s Almighty bestowed to those people. Prophet among them serves as a head in God’s own Head quarters. He remains in direct and live communication and communion of God. All the events are carried out under God’s own instructions; on war like footings. The conduct of prophet during his era, short it may be; take a special exemplary place and a beacon for generations to come. There after; the history takes a special turn in the life of mankind.

The special verses of Koran; containing war instructions; if read now may seem to be very tough. Those instructions were the need of the day. Who knows better than; the God. The situation on ground and the appropriate action required.
At the time of war, obviously there ought to be tough commandments and may not be some instructions; suggesting, sending some flowers or gifts to your adversaries.

Any how communities of later days, under their particular situation at the time may have their own particular resolves, Where these instructions only serve as guide lines. Not as a general rule of law.

God tells us that invariably all the prophets of God with out any exception, were mocked. They were jeered and abused by the very people among whom they came. This mocking often became the sign of their being true representatives of God also.

Beauty of Islam is that it recognises and confirms all the previous denomination of God’s religions (in their original forms) and their prophets. These earlier found religions are in fact stepping stones to reach the summit of ‘Word of God’ selected for the mankind---Islam.

Our arrogance and ignorance may leave us in our anguish… wandering but matter of fact is that Islam is very well a filtered and refined product of God. Almighty bestowed it to Muslims for their delivery as ‘blessing for the mankind’; to foster peace and harmony in the World. If its God’s design, it will prevail and excel above all the previous denominations. Muslim may be resource less (at present) and their state of affairs may be seen very precarious and hope less, but in God, their Lord that they trust, is not resource less.

At the same time Islam respect people of book, Christian, Jews and others:

Muslims always take the guidance from their ‘Holy Book-Koran’ and do not carry any kind of animus feelings toward others. For Instance:-

In Chapter 2 (Albaqrah) verse 137
“Say ye, 'We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what
was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and his
children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to
all the other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of
them; and to Him we submit ourselves.”

In chapter: 4 (Al-nisa), Verse: 164
“Surely, We have sent revelation to thee, as We sent revelation to Noah
and the Prophets after him; and We sent revelation to Abraham and
Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his children and to Jesus and Job and
Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave David a Book.”

And in Chapter2 (Albaqrah) verse 63

“Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”

I shall wait for you response!

Regards

A khokar
Love for all, Hatred for none
---------------------------------------
* (Peace be upon them all)

Posted by: A Khokar at November 9, 2006 7:32 PM

The guy's name is Sir Richard Attenborough, you know-it-all twit. Try reading something other than all that made up mohammedan bullshit you're always spouting here.

Posted by: Eisenhund at November 9, 2006 8:37 PM

A quotation:

"Word of wisdom carry no weight; in the eyes of retarded moronic."

Posted by: A Khokar at November 10, 2006 1:51 AM

love for all hatred for none.hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!sure .your so full of shit and don't even seem to know it.why even the word khokar has the meaning in yiddish of one who has a bowel movment.but yours is through your feeble brain.

Posted by: cowfy at November 10, 2006 2:39 AM

Eisenhund
Hi,
Yes I was talking about Sir David Frederick Attenborough and on BBC; he is known as Sir Attenborough.

In any case he is not Sir Richard Attenborough as mentioned by you. Sir Richard Attenborough was born: Aug 29, 1923 in Cambridge, He is one of England's most respected actors and directors ...Drama and comedy. He has two younger brothers, the famous naturalist Sir David Attenborough ( that we are talking about); and John Attenborough, ...
www.answers.com/topic/richard-attenborough

Posted by: A Khokar at November 10, 2006 2:54 AM

You get the picture: Sure, Muslim fundamentalists can be pretty extreme, but what about all our Christian fundamentalists? Unfortunately, for the old moral equivalence to hold up, the Christians really need to get off their fundamentalist butts and start killing more people.

At the moment, the brilliantly versatile Muslim fundamentalists are gunning down Maryland schoolkids and bus drivers, hijacking Moscow musicals, chopping the heads off of nonmuslims, self-detonating in Israeli pizza parlours, blowing up French oil tankers in Yemen, and slaughtering nightclubbers in Bali,

while Christian fundamentalists are, errr, sounding extremely strident in their calls for the return of prayer in school. yes siree.

sheesh.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 10, 2006 9:22 AM