"unflappable and unfoolable.."
-- from Robert's remarks above

Robert, do you know that someone once described you, in the course of a book review, in those exact terms?

Posted by: Hugh at November 13, 2006 10:42 AM

Here's what AtlasShrugged had to say about Hamid Mir:

"I have not given white space to the Islamic apologist Hamid Mir (he is the only journalist to have met with Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahri since the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.) He fought intermittently with Spencer and Sultan and was disingenuous about the facts concerning Islam. Each time his inaccuracies were starkly pointed out, he would cop out to, "I am not an Islamic scholar."

At one point, Sultan called him out on "Islamic tolerance" when she asked Mir, "if Islam is tolerant of other religions then why can a Muslim man marry a Christian or a Jew, but a Muslim woman can not? "She will be killed. Honor Killing.

He lost all credibility with me well before he said that Hezb'Allah was disarmed after the Israel/Islamic conflict this past summer. He was on a mission and when Janet over at Frontpage mag sent me this gem, it all made sense;

I just had a conversation with a Muslim reformist and author/publisher from Pakistan who is threatened by fatwas by the likes of Al Qaeda. He confirmed that non-Muslim journalists have been able to interview Osama when Osama wanted to convey a particular message to the West. However, he stated that no Muslim reporter can reach OBL unless he agrees with his jihadist mission to establish the worldwide Caliphate. According to my well-respected source, AQ has intelligence (often dating back to a person's youth) on all Muslims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Malaysia and Indonesia who are active in any field. It is therefore impossible to survive, let alone live, in Osama's territory if you are an active Muslim and don't agree with the jihad. In other words, it is impossible to hide from AQ in that region.

Furthermore, according to this Pakistani publisher who lives on the West Coast, Hamid Mir was on an AQ-sanctioned mission to the West. He maintains that AQ provides tickets, photographers, bodyguards, etc. for its operatives to come to America and talk to the public. The PTF was used for their purposes and ultimately gave him a legitimate forum to further the deception of the West. Hamid will now be able to return home and report on his mission. His photographer will provide proof of a successful mission that included the Hamid's participation in a forum composed of many of the prominent anti-jihadists in America today.

There was a good deal of back and forth between Spencer and Mir and I would have VLOGGED it but video was not allowed. I scored the little I have clandestinely. Spencer wiped the floor with him because Spencer's arguments are based in fact not Islamic propaganda. Mir is a plant."

Posted by: CGW at November 13, 2006 10:47 AM

Here's what she had to say about Spencer:

"Spencer's JihadWatch is the most comprehensive, informative website on Islam. His latest work, The Truth about Muhammad, is the definitive book on the subject - a must read now. And yet for all of his profound thinking and meticulous research, I gotta tell you, I found him to be the most engaging, charming sharp, concise, funny man. He's a pistol , razor sharp but the message this scholar delivers is grave. The depth and breadth of Spencer's knowledge on Islam and the Quran is without peer."

Sorry, it should have been AtlasShrugs above.

Posted by: CGW at November 13, 2006 10:53 AM

Mir replied by saying he really didn't know much about Islam, and asked, "Why are you pushing me to adopt a more radical form of Islam?"

Well, the truth's out now. Robert Spencer is the sole creator of jihadists!

As Iblis Hooper might say, Hamid Mir's statement is too bizarre to comment on.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 13, 2006 10:58 AM

I would have liked to witness that exchange.

Posted by: InfidelWench at November 13, 2006 10:59 AM

Mir replied by saying he really didn't know much about Islam, and asked, "Why are you pushing me to adopt a more radical form of Islam?"

WTF, it just gets crazier by the day.

My head hurts after reading that.

Posted by: km at November 13, 2006 11:00 AM

The muslim apologists are not spreading these lies for free, someone is bankrolling this process. I would love to know how many American tax dollars go into supporting “moderate muslim” spokesmen especially since they don’t seem to have an audience other than Americans.

Posted by: Ronin at November 13, 2006 11:07 AM

Well done, Robert!
But just imagine the brain-washing of the audience he would have gotten away with, if he had not been unexpectedly confronted (uh-oh, not my day!)with incontrovertible evidence against his glib exposition of the "religion of peace".

All around the world, one comes across this phenomena of non-muslims eager and willing to lap up the outpourings of an "authentic" voice of islam: it's so reassuring to hear about islam - it's just what they thought it would be - "very similar to Christianity","most egalitarian", " respects women", "tolerant" etc etc..NOT realising that they are being fed a load of unadulterated lies designed to lull them into prolonged and puzzled stupor till the sword is unsheathed.

Posted by: Dunk at November 13, 2006 11:09 AM

Thank you.

Posted by: Josephine at November 13, 2006 11:37 AM

THE PURITY OF FAITH

After a series of very long and meaningful exchanges with a Christian student of Bible, who had also read the fair amount of the Qur'an, the student finally decided to ask; "Show me what Islam has to offer and let my heart and the grace God take over from there. If Islam is indeed the true faith God will guide me to it. Peace!"

In response, I sent him the following four lines from the Qur'an with the commentaries by the famous translator Abdullah Yusuf Ali. In the original Arabic text these four short sentences from Surah Al-Ikhlaas (112) have their endings in a poetic rhythm.

It is impossible to duplicate the beauty
and marvel of that poetic outpouring it in the
translated text.

1 Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
2 Allah the Eternal Absolute;
3 He begetteth not nor is He begotten;
4 And there is none like unto Him.

Posted by: Ramon at November 13, 2006 12:05 PM

"allah" is Satan.

Posted by: CGW at November 13, 2006 12:13 PM

Ramon
Our man might have been a competent poet, but so what? Doesn't do anything about the unmitigated evil, death and misery he has brought about across the world.

Posted by: Dunk at November 13, 2006 12:16 PM

Moderate Muslim: A radical Muslim who has run out of explosives.

Posted by: USBeast at November 13, 2006 12:23 PM

More definitions:

moderate Muslim: A Muslim who seems like he or she will not explode any time soon.

intelligent Infidel: A person who is not mollified into comfortable gullibility by the existence of millions of moderate Muslims.

PC Infidel: A person who is, in fact, mollified into comfortable gullibility
by the existence of millions of moderate Muslims, and who concludes that the intelligent Infidel is a shrill, Islamophobic and bigoted alarmist.

Posted by: remote_control at November 13, 2006 12:56 PM

Liberation = Invasion.

Coalition = The U.S. and British invaders, plus some troops from rent-a-nations like Romania and Poland.

Terrorism = violent acts by dangerous fanatics and malcontents who refuse to accept the downtrodden status assigned to them by Washington.

Islam = An evil faith that promotes violence and hatred, as proven by the Rev. Jimmy Swaggart, who learned about the agents of the devil while
encountering them in motel rooms and Rev. Ted Haggard while having an affair with gay man.

Posted by: Ramon at November 13, 2006 1:17 PM

I attended the Las Vegas Symposium. I think it was appropriate that, at that point, Robert Spencer and Waafa Sultan responded to the the statements by Hamid Mir about the Quran being benign toward non-muslims.

However, I think the audience questioners (some of whom were overly vocal, and out of turn) and the moderators and panel missed one of the most stunning, and, to me, the most important things Hamid Mir said. He, independently, and as it turns out coincidentally, corroborated the main point of Dr. Williams speech - that suitcase nuclear bombs have been in the possession of Al-Qaeda, and at least two of them are now in the United States. Also, that Osama Bin Laden requested and received a fatwa allowing him to kill as many as 10 million Americans.

Mr. Mir is a practicing Muslim, though as he himself said, not a knowledgeable Muslim. (He conceded, twice, that Robert Spencer was more of a scholar of Islam than he was). I'm sure you could find many American journalists, Jewish or Christian, who know next to nothing, really, about their own religion.

Whether Mr. Mir did or did not know what the Quran says and means, was a very small matter compared with his testimony about nuclear devices in the hands of the terrorists - and former soviet scientists assisting them. - If you live in New York or Washington, you might want to consider moving.

Posted by: elcordobes at November 13, 2006 1:22 PM

elcordobes, regarding suitace nukes: I might think that there might be another target than NYC or DC for them. There are only a few ways to get onto Manhatten island, and I'd think that some fairly sophisticated detection gear is on all of them.

Places that I'd expect alQ to try to hit with a suitcase nuke would be places that have high concentrations of people, particularly high concentrations of young people: college and professional sports stadiums, the annual "Burning Man" festival in Nevada, etc

Posted by: PapaBear at November 13, 2006 3:05 PM

CGW's comments above ref Hamid Mir's background are interesting. if true, then i suppose the good news is that AQ's money is not being well-spent. Mir's marriage to a Muslim man example we have been hearing for years, and it is still as daft and dishonest as when it was first uttered. the obvious 'honour-killing' retort has been falling on deaf ears for just as long....

Posted by: M Al-Content at November 13, 2006 3:14 PM

"In the original Arabic text these four short sentences from Surah Al-Ikhlaas (112) have their endings in a poetic rhythm."
-- from a posting above

The supposed hauntingness of the "poetry" of the Qur'an is nothing more than extensive internal rhyme, made easy through the nature of Arabic, and endless homoeoteleuton (similiar endings), that end up mesmerizing those listening to Qur'anic recitiation as it does those who do the reciting. It is just a kind of trance induced by constant repetition of these like endings, and syntactical parallelism. That's it.

If those who are Muslims had a vast store of literary knowledge with which to compare the Qur'an they would not be so impressed. If they could compare the poetry, say, of the King James version of the Bible with the Qur'an, they would -- if native speakers of English -- have no difficulty in seeing how superior in every way is that Bible.

But they don't. So they can't.

So homoeoteleuton it is.

"Variable, and therefore miserable condition of man. This moment I am well, and am ill, this moment."

The beginning of Donne's "Devotions." Not a Muslim text. But homoeoteleuton in the "variable...miserable" repetition. Now imagine a text that does that again and again and again. And imagine simple souls being told that these effects -- to be found everywhere in the literature of many lands, over many millennia -- is somehow special to the Qur'an. And you believe it. And you nod in hypnotic rapture. And you tell yourself, and tell others, what you have been told so insistently and therefore believe: that the Qur'an must be the Word of God, because how else can one explain that "haunting beauty" that you confuse with mere verbal repetition.

The simplest rhetorical effects endowed with metaphysical meaning.

That's the world we must endure, even as our coming hence and -- far less pleasant -- our going hither.

Posted by: Hugh at November 13, 2006 4:03 PM

Islam had faced 1400 years of attacks from extreme religious people of other faiths. It not only survived, it actually became the fastest
growing religion of the world!

One wonder! The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of
its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other
well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the
triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?

Posted by: Ramon at November 13, 2006 4:07 PM

Ramon,

Whatever the reasons for the spread of Islam in the past is irrelevant to the fact that in present society, many of us find many aspects of Islam repugnant...and thats putting it mildly.

Posted by: woof at November 13, 2006 4:35 PM

I'll give you a clue...sheer, unadulterated intolerance of anyone and anything that isn't Muslim, and the willingness to ruthlessly and mercilessly implement Islam through murder, rape and severing of body parts as a motivator. Heck, you don't even give a flying flip about your own families. If you'll murder them to keep everyone in line why not a few million infidels?

Honey, if you can read you need to pick up your book and get educated. Nobody's buying your BS here.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 13, 2006 4:36 PM

Ramon...a few points. Islam spread through sheer violence, nothing more, nothing less. It isn't currently the fastest growing religion in the world. That would actually be Christianity based on what is happening in Africa at the moment. A notable fact for you Ramon, Christianity is being spread without the threat of violence unlike Islam.

Posted by: schwaben at November 13, 2006 4:45 PM

So Hamid Mir claims the Koran does not endorse lying. To which Robert Spencer points out it does. To which Hamid Mir instructs Robert Spencer to lie and say it doesn't. For someone who has only "just" learned that Koran endorses lying, Hamid is real quick to turn into a liar, isn't he? But of course it's all Robert's fault, because before he made Hamid read that surah (where Hamid just learned it's OK to lie), Hamid would of course never lie, or instruct others to lie. Ahhh, the wonders of the Islamic mind...

All it is is good cop/bad cop - Hamid plays good cop to Osama's bad cop - "I am a good reasonable guy, but if you aren't reasonable and institute parts of shariya into your law, I won't be able to control that bad, unreasonable extremist. Come on work with me, we both want a reasonable resolution, right"

oldest trick in the book - and most of the braindead western leaders swallow it hook and sinker

Posted by: godfreyofbouillon at November 13, 2006 6:00 PM

Our man (mohammad) might have been a competent poet, but so what...

Competent poet? That nonsense didn't even rhyme.

As far as Mir is concerned, he's in outer space, which is where you expect to find a Mir. But keep in mind, as a journalist who goes into the lion's den, and I mean, literally, into a cave to meet with bin laden, anything less than a lukewarm endorsement of islam would end his intrepid career and probably his life.

Suitcase nukes. I doubt it. Of course bin laden is going to say he has this weapon and that weapon. Terrorists' first goal is to scare. And if you lack the actual weapons, then saying you have them is just as good. Indeed, terrorism is about leverage. And fear is the only leverage they have.

Remember, this Mir was the guy who said he talked to a jihadi "scientist" whose eye was poked out by a nuclear blast. After that report, I take him to be more a National Inquirer-style reporter. Sure, of course, bin laden has suitcase nukes. I'm sure if you asked bin laden, he would also say he has a doomsday laser superweapon too, and he will use it on us unless we all convert to islam.

Posted by: August22 at November 13, 2006 7:46 PM

So Hamid Mir didn't know the Qur'an endorsed lying/deception and he wasn't aware of the inequality in men's and women's rights; then justified his ignorance by saying he wasn't an "Islamic scholar" like Robert.

Well, I guess that makes me an Islamic scholar because I knew these facts...and all I had to do was to read a couple of Robert's books.

I hope Robert gave Hamid Mir a copy of his latest book, so he won't be able to use that excuse again.

Posted by: Xero G at November 13, 2006 10:47 PM

"Why are you pushing me to adopt a more radical form of Islam?"
-- quoting Hamid Mir's remark at the conference in Las Vegas

What Hamid Mir is admitting to is that he does not possess the moral freedom to weigh things and choose for himself. If it turns out that Islam says thus and so, as Robert maintains, then the supposedly heretofore innocent-of-all-this-unpleasant-stuff Hamid Mir has no choice: if it turns out to be part of Islam, then he must slavishly obey.

That is why he accuses Robert, by pointing out what the contents of the canonical texts (Qur'an,Hadith, Sira or biography(ies) of Muhammad) actually contain, of forcing nice moderate Muslims such as -- Hamid Mir -- of having now to accept, and follow, the unpleasant commands that Robert has apparently uncovered, and that before Robert Spencer came along, Muslims such as Hamid Mir simply didn't know about.

An absurdity from first to last.

But of great significance is the admission that no matter what the Qur'an and Hadith might say, if they say it, then Hamid Mir will slavishly obey. For what is Islam but a belief-system that is uninterrupted in the workings of the individual conscience. In Islam, there is no mental freedom. You must submit, you must yield to the submission that Islam demans of its adherents. You cannot examine critically, you cannot consider, as Jews and Christians not only consider but recognize, that your own belief-system may not lie outside time, but have been created within history, at a certain time and a certain place, and for certain aims (in the case of Islam, the goal was to create an Arab national religion at a time when the Arabs were already starting to conquer other, much richer, more industrious, wealthier, more settled communities of Christians and Jews)-- the aim in the case of Islam of both justifying, and promoting, the conquest of non-Muslim lands and peoples by the Muslim Arabs.

Whatever Allah tells him in the Qur'an, Hamid Mir will obey. That's what he says, that's what he reveals, when he exclaims to Robert "[w]hy are you pushing me to adopt a more radical form of Islam?"

The mentality of a slave, openly recognizing that he is a slave, and that he refuses to be anything but a slave -- to Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira.
:

Posted by: Hugh at November 13, 2006 11:04 PM

Islam means submission, and not peace. I think that this is the point of the response from Hamid Mir.

His question is of course rhetorical, because he knows the answer of that question. He is trying to play the victim card so that no blame is placed upon him by his own mind. Alas, he has failed miserably with the intent upon his question.

There is some very good information that has been provided as a result of this symposium. Perhaps someone needs to review what has also been mentioned by one of the people who commented here about the possession of a portable nuclear bomb.

BTW, Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world. This is something that is repeated but to be frank I have not ever seen any statistics that support the statement. It is worth noting that anyone who leaves Islam is threatened with violence and death. That means that there are people who have remained as Muslims even though they have no desire to remain as a Muslim, because leaving and being found out means death. Alas those people do not realize that there is another spiritual form of death that is more lasting than death in the flesh. The bondage of Islam will be smashed, just as the Hebrew were released from bondage in Egypt.

Posted by: Maggie4Life at November 14, 2006 12:23 AM

Hamid Mir's journalism is as solid as his knowledge of Islam - remember, he was the one who, some months ago, claimed that al Qaeda had tested a nuke and the guy who did it lost an eye in the attempt. My only question - what was he doing here?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 14, 2006 1:53 AM

"what was he [Hamad Mir] doing here?"
-- from a posting above

Presumably he was brought in by the organizers deliberately, so that his sensational claim of nuclear weapons already in this country would get some press. They should think less about such sensational charges, and about such press, and focus on intelligent and seductive pedagogy.

Posted by: Hugh at November 14, 2006 2:07 PM

What are the reasons behind the
triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?

Posted by: Ramon at November 13, 2006 04:07 PM

You know the answer to your question---obscenely high birthrates among illiterate muslim peasants, a practice that endures today, and the militant conquest of unsuspecting, peaceful, vastly superior societies. Entire nations do not willingly abandon their traditions, heritage, and culture to impulsively embrace an aggressive, hostile, alien creed. It simply does not happen and if you believe it does, you're an idiot.

Islam is not the "fastest growing religion" in the world. More muslims are leaving islam today than at any time in its dark and desolate history, and the umma's ranks are maintained through prolific breeding practices. There is always an extreme excess of the least desirable and most unproductive people. Islam has contributed nothing to the world but far too many illiterate, destitute, lazy, worthless, fanatical muslims. Islam's "triumphs" can be attributed to
brute force, genocide, intimidation and demographics, not a stampede of willing converts. No rational, sane, normal human being would ever voluntarily convert to islam.

Christianity is the world's fastest growing religion and 33% of the world's people are Christians. Only 20% are muslims, and that's 20% too many.

Posted by: Susanp at November 15, 2006 2:09 AM