americaningermany had better get out of there and fast. Sounds like Germany will become part of cesspoolia in short order. Hell, the place is probably doomed to cesspoolia even earlier than 2050-the government probably doesn't want to panic everyone. Bismarck, look at what has become of your fatherland! This surely must be the final punishment for Hitler's sins.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 15, 2006 12:52 PM

Well, that just solidifies the Nazi/Islamic relationship for me.

After all, it just makes sense - If you don't like Jews and Christians, what better place to convert a population to Islam than Germany?

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 15, 2006 12:52 PM

One simple step to at least slow the process: stop allowing people to immigrate from Muslim nations.

While "Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles" wasn't a favorite chorus, neither will be "Deutschland, allahu ackbar!"

Posted by: give me doughnuts at November 15, 2006 12:54 PM

Islam Will Replace Collapsing American Empire

As America would become a nose-diving empire,
Islam could be a substitute for the New World Order

The question that irresistibly comes to the mind is this:

WHAT ISLAM HAS TO OFFER TO AMERICA THAT Christian CANNOT?

America has its own virtues as well as vices.

Islam can improve and enhance all the virtues while eliminating -- or, at least, minimizing -- the vices.

The influence of Islam is not limited to the social and moral domains, it extends to the political, economic, legal, cultural, and educational realms as well.

There is so much in Islam that can truly make America, and indeed the whole world, a safer, better, and more decent place to live in. Islam is a formidable force with potential great enough to revolutionize the world and radically change the course of history as it once did some 1400 years ago.

Posted by: Ramon at November 15, 2006 12:55 PM

This to me is far more scary than terrorism. The demographics are absolutely relentless. Once we've got a muslim population of 25% we're done for. As for 50%, it's absolutely hideous. The policymakers aren't going to go anywhere near this problem either. It's too explosive and too non-PC, too difficult to do anything about unless they're prepared to be really ruthless, which they aren't. The only real hope are the far Right parties.

Posted by: Malta_1565 at November 15, 2006 12:59 PM

@Ramon

Armageddon was predicted in the Bible. It is coming. The forces of Light will battle the forces of darkness.

Islam is pure evil. Islam is darkness.

Its ending will be very violent and involve the Chinese, Hindus, Jews and Christians all cooperating to rid the world finally of that false Messiah Mohammad, the Fiend, Shaytan, May his name and memory be erased from the earth. Amen.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 15, 2006 1:03 PM

Ramon: Your poxy religion spreads across the world like a swarm of locusts because you people have so many damn kids. It lays waste to all in its path like a swarm of locusts too.

Posted by: Malta_1565 at November 15, 2006 1:04 PM

Ironic. Here the Germans wiped out the Jews, the brilliant descendants of Isaac who brought wealth and tremendous learning to Europe.

Well, now they have Isaac's retarded half-brother Ishmael and all his wives and offspring.

Payback's a bitch.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 15, 2006 1:06 PM

Ramon,

Yeah, I really like how the Muslims, "enhanced" Science, Technology, and Religion in the Mideast...

Do you think you could do that for America, also? Gee, that would be just swell...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 15, 2006 1:06 PM

I thought Robert suggested recently that Germany was unlikely to Islamise as they have restrictions on who can adopt German citizenship and therefore would be in a better position to deport Muslims back to countries of origin.

Could Robert update us on his view given the above article, please?

Kind regards

Posted by: payingattention at November 15, 2006 1:16 PM

Assaalamau Laikum AIG,

Your German ancestors will be a dim light fading fast infront of the bright light offered by Islam and the Ummah...got your Jilbab yet?

I would put an advance order for your daughter/grandaughter now!

Posted by: Naseem at November 15, 2006 1:27 PM

Without Western-provided health care, Western health care technology, and Western-provided petrodollars and jizya for food, housing, and clothing, the mohammedans would continue to whelp large litters, but their infant mortality rate would skyrocket. They still don't quite get it that when the host dies, so does the parasite.

Posted by: Infidel33 at November 15, 2006 1:32 PM

payingattention,

Yup, you're definately, "paying attention!"

My thoughts on it are that all Holocaust Deniers enjoy the company (stench) of each other, so the Neo-nazi Germans are probably hesitant to deport those who re-enforce their delusions, ie -Muslims...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 15, 2006 1:33 PM

The only real hope are the far Right parties.

Posted by: Malta_1565 at November 15, 2006 12:59 PM

Well, the American Phalangist Party looks pretty good to me-not extreme, but not Republicrat either. Unfortunately, we'll probably go directly to fascism if the left stays in power too long and we have an economic disaster. Then the Muslims and their lapdogs will finally get what's coming to them.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 15, 2006 1:35 PM

Ramon -

Islam/allah/Mohammad -- they are all a false religion/god/prophet.

Truth lies in Jesus Christ, so why would anyone wish to follow a lie?

And even if your false religion manages to clean up this corrupt world, people still have to face eternity when they die; and Islam says you have to be PERFECT to go to heaven -- hell being the other choice.

Are you perfect, Ramon? Do you know anyone who is? Jesus says that "all have sinned", and that we "all come up short". How does Islam solve this problem for a Muslim? It doesn't -- but Jesus does.

Jesus said, "I Am The Way, the truth and the light, no man comes unto the Father except by Me."

The choice is yours.

Posted by: champ at November 15, 2006 1:37 PM

This "trend" of the "population plunge" of native Europeans applies to all of Europe in my estimation, not just Germany.

Wonder what Sir Winston would have to say if he was alive today?

"We will make babies on the beaches. We will never surrender!"

Posted by: Foehammer at November 15, 2006 1:39 PM

"Islam Will Replace Collapsing American Empire"

You mean the American Republic? It isn't collapsing. It has minor problems, as it always had, but the freedom to get those problems out in the open and dealt with by concerned citizens ensures that they get solved before doing major damage.

As the elections demonstrated, we toss out leaders when they have dirty IM conversations with 16-year-olds, and the main thing the nation in general is worried about is whether or not we're wasting our time and resources trying to pull Iraq forward into the 18th century.

Neither of these indicate any collapse of the Republic. Far from it.

"WHAT ISLAM HAS TO OFFER TO AMERICA THAT Christian CANNOT?"

A purely transcendental understanding of God that necessarily denies that reason is part of His nature and that necessarily disconnects morality from everything except sheer command (and not even a direct command, but one I'm supposed to believe comes from God because dudes with knives say it does)?

I'll pass. So with the vast majority of the heavily-armed freedom-loving general populace.

"America has its own virtues as well as vices.

Islam can improve and enhance all the virtues while eliminating -- or, at least, minimizing -- the vices."

Islam's support of free speech and freedom of association will enhance the educational system which enables America to become a technological and economic powerhouse, by making the Science and Business departments of our universities more like those of the fine institutions in Jordan and Egypt and Saudi Arabia. (No wonder you hate Israel so much. In half a century they've managed to get world-class educational institutions going in thier little speck of the ME, while the rest of you are still... Well.)

Also, Islam will totally eliminate the problem of throwing acid onto the faces of "uncovered meat". Such a major problem in American cities; the religion and social and political system of Pakistan and Egypt will be so much help.

And trials that bring out child molestation into the open for possible punishment, should evidence be sufficient. Those trials corrode the public morals. If Michael Jackson doesn't know what's best for his children, moving them to an Islamic state to help them be free of such filth, the I don't know who does.

"The influence of Islam is not limited to the social and moral domains, it extends to the political, economic, legal, cultural, and educational realms as well."

Because, of course, once man has the perfect formula for life on earth, it must be implemented forcibly in all spheres, with none of that corrupting "wiggle room" and "adaptation to changing circumstances" and "human initiative" that nasty little limits on government power enable.

"There is so much in Islam that can truly make America, and indeed the whole world, a safer, better, and more decent place to live in. Islam is a formidable force with potential great enough to revolutionize the world and radically change the course of history as it once did some 1400 years ago."

Been there, done that.

The most primitive manner of running citied socities is by force in every sphere of human life, as far as officials can reach. The actual insights of the West over the past few centuries--the things which actually led the culture from that part of the world to be the one in which the computer you're using was developed--is that, provided the general populace has a concern for reason and morality, and a sense of responsibility and personal agency, when the government sticks to certain limits, and thus lets voluntary social institutions and voluntary individual action fill the spaces left behind by limiting the government (not eliminating, but limiting), you on the whole get a FAR FAR less corrupt society and FAR FAR more creative society. (Interestingly enough, the fact that the government is limited helps create the checks that ensure that the government that remains will exist to do things like punish rapists instead of do things like cover up for the powerful Foleys of the world.)

This is because when people have the freedom to think for themselves and choose for themselves, and have a sense of their worth and their capacity as human beings, and have no threat of being killed for refusing evil orders, they are generally less likely to do evil. Evil still happens, but it is kept limited.

This is what you are trying to overturn, without even understanding how it works.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 15, 2006 1:45 PM

Scarey news folks- we're facign the same dilema- Americans aren't having enough children to sustain our population, and Muslims are being encouraged to have as many children as possible. It's a fact that we can't sustain our civilization's population with our current children per familiy numbers:

WHAT CHRISTIANITY can offer society that ISLAM CAN NOT: A personal relationship with God and Christ and a regenerated forgiven soul by doiong what God demands and accepting Jesus Christ as saviour- all other paths lead to eternal damnation- don't hate the messenger- it is God who demands purification through the redemptive power of Christ's shed blood. So, while the Muslims are enjoying temporary 'transcendental 'understanding' the Christian transcends even this head knowledge by having a relationship with God per God's instructions.
The 'transcended mind knowledge of Islam can never kill the soul of the Christian because the soul has received eternal slavation from the moment they obeyed God by accepting Christ as Saviour.

God may allow Islam to overtake th4e world by violent means- BUT in the end, Every Muslim knee will bow before Him and His Son Jesus Christ.

Posted by: CottShop at November 15, 2006 2:00 PM

Ramon,
America is not an empire. It's the most successful nation-state ever.
Islam can't even create a civil society.

Naseem, coveting other people's kids is not a good thing.

Posted by: Rob at November 15, 2006 2:07 PM

And that is probably the real reason for its recent 'war crimes' lawsuit against Rumsfeld--to derail US counter-jihad.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 15, 2006 2:12 PM

"Americans aren't having enough children to sustain our population,"

Our fertility rate is 2.09:
https://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People

The means that in her lifetime, each woman has about 2 children, on average.

Because gender ratios are about 50/50, this rate a replacement rate.

We, as citizens, need to worry about dipping below that, and about continuing to culturally integrate the Hispanic families that help in keeping the rate so high, and about fine-tuning our culture to focus a bit more on the importance of families.

This is minor adjusting, to keep a basically good thing going. It is not at all the German or Italian or French situation.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 15, 2006 2:19 PM

Yo Naseem, found work yet? Perhaps you will need to "ask an Imam". I'm sure that you will be tired of eating dirt with the rest of you friends.

Islam has nothing to offer. It has no creativity, no trade, and stiffels productivity. It's a great world you will offer.

We are a vanguard of people your followers will meet. The more we talk and explain to our kin, the more resistance you will find. Like you, "we won't need no stinkin badges."

Let us know when you've found work.

Posted by: credit man at November 15, 2006 2:22 PM

Ramon is only regurgitating the flagrant lies promoted by the idiotic-imams & jihadist-junkies he chooses to fellowship with. You are what you eat, Ramon.

Posted by: champ at November 15, 2006 2:23 PM

I can’t think of a historical parallel of today’s mass population migrations of poor, lower IQ people to rich countries in order to live under the generous social safety net. If it doesn’t stop, some predictions can be made:

1. Social entitlement programs will be impossible or nearly impossible to scale back in a popular democracy that has gotten used to them.
2. The immigrant’s poorer populations will strain an already over-stretched social system and the hard-working immigrant populations will not contain enough high-income earners to help.
3. Budget shortfalls will be addressed with tax hikes. The taxes will be progressive and further punish entrepreneurs and manufacturers.
4. Entrepreneurs and manufacturers will leave and tax proceeds will actually go down.
5. The system will break and bad things will happen. Like what we have recently seen in Russia. The Muslim’s won’t take over, but democracy may be lost in the process.

This thought is posted from a 3rd world country. The government has lots of incentives in place to attract business. The social safety net is minimal and income tax rates are in the single digits, including everything. There is a strong European presence in the business community. And none of them seem to be eager to go back.

Posted by: limes at November 15, 2006 2:26 PM

"If demographic trends continue."

This is a mathematical model that is predicting something 44 years down the road.

Watching Imadinnerjacket spoiling for a fight is going to bring this conflict to a resolution in the very near future. These demographic trends won't continue IMHO. I have a feeling that in a few years there will be a lot less muslims in the world.

Posted by: ShortBoard Surfer at November 15, 2006 2:33 PM

Ramon, with all due respect, we have eyes. All we have to do is look at the muslim countries around the world to see what they have to offer.

No thanks.

Posted by: ShortBoard Surfer at November 15, 2006 2:35 PM

Isn't insanity a direct result of inbreeding?

Posted by: champ at November 15, 2006 2:39 PM

Islam! Islam! Uber alles; uber alles in der Welt!

The old jingle was much better I think.

So the "Wacht am Rhine" isn't what it used to be I guess.

Posted by: witness at November 15, 2006 2:40 PM

Regarding the Muslim poster coveting others' daughters:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,446045,00.html

The most talented Germans are leaving for better economic opportunities.

When and if Islam takes over Germany and similar countries, the best minds will have already left, to join our side, for economic reasons. The daughters you'll be getting will be those of the politically short-sighted or economically undesirable.

The more Europe changes, the more likely it becomes that Islam will have some future authority on European territory, the more talented Europeans will get the heck outta there, and the more it becomes the case that the granddaughters of the men with the minds behind famed German Engineering will be going to prom with *our* grandsons. (As opposed to being gang-raped by yours.)

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 15, 2006 2:48 PM

Forget the Muslim trolls folks. Let's have a serious discussion...

To what can we attribute the demographic nightmare facing the West?

Muslim immigration and conquest is only an after-effect. What are the root causes?

1) A materialistic, hedonistic, self-centered culture that lost sight of any responsibility for the future?

2) Contraceptives and legalized abortion?....(tens of millions who would otherwise be of child-bearing age today were snuffed out of the womb over the last 3 decades)

3) Feminism and gender equality?...(of which I'm a passionate defender of, but dare we ask if it was the liberation of the woman and the establishment of her sovereignty over her own body that helped precipitate the apparent civilizational suicide of Europe)

I'm just trying to provoke some introspection here among the ardent defenders of Western civilization (of which I proudly number myself one).

Posted by: Cornelius at November 15, 2006 2:49 PM

The indigenous German have low birth rate; they are very busy building factories. In contrary, the Muslims are industrious manufacturing by spreading their legs.

Posted by: ssa at November 15, 2006 3:06 PM

And they thought things were tough when Hitler was runnin the place

Posted by: CaptainGrevious at November 15, 2006 3:17 PM

mrsmomomoto - you are "spot on"; we got the heck outta there (UK)a year ago. Our immigration was for family reasons - a new grandson (our only son, although raised in UK, is a US citizen by birth and is now married and settled in New England). BUT, like several hundred thousand others every year, we considered our Green Cards to be "tickets to escape Eurabia".

Posted by: Kate at November 15, 2006 3:27 PM

Ramon and Naseem your allegience to darkness does not suprise me. To you we are 'kafiir' who should be hated because of 'shirk' But you are fools. For you do not know God and your actions show that allah is not God but only an old Arabic moon 'jinn'.

Your people have been fooled Ramon and Naseem into
serving a wicked and dark demon who will inherit your souls when you die. You think you will have 72 virgins and paradise. No. You will only have an angry God who will say: "why did you follow hate and claim its the truth? I knew you not. Away from Me."

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 15, 2006 3:45 PM

and the last thing you will see is a lake of fire just before you are thrown into it.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 15, 2006 3:48 PM

This will appear off topic and will largely catch people off guard but let us look towards the near future from and oft ignored point of view...

By at least 2030, human intelligence may be exceeded by Strong AI (artificial intelligence millions of times more powerful than the human mind). Case-in-point: Intel already has a functional terascale 80 core processor with transfer rates of over a terabit between processor cores. Intel core duos are on the market now, quad cores to be released Q1 of next year and octacore processors within a year. At this rate of computing power, it will continue to be exponential for many years to come and this kind of computing power will exponetially change the playing felid in favor of modern civilization by extending the lives of those who refuse the inevitability of personal death.

Most likely before mid 21st century, Strong AI assistance will be aiding humans in adding nearly one year to every year lived for people in modern societies who choose to live as long as they can. They aren't trying to cure lethal diseases for nothing and the side effect of doing so is longer and longer and longer life.

Life expectancy will most likely double in length before 2050. Considering how hard the coming baby boomer retirement wave is going to strike our financial system, insuring that they live long and healthy lives is the only alternative to being financial burdens on young tax payers.

This means radical life extension and radical cellular enhancement and most likely the end of involuntary death due to biological degradation. I'm not kidding - research this for yourselves. This means people will be around for much longer, living healthier empowered lives, contributing to the growth and economies of their respective homelands and this ultimately means the choice of biological immortality.

So how the hell does this have anything to do with our struggle against Islamic encroachments?

Populations tend to stabilize and/or drop in conjunction with their level of education and economic growth - statistically speaking - the entire modern world population is either stabilizing or is dropping and Muslims somehow feel that they can fill in some imaginary population gap. My guess is that Muslims will cease to be the triumphant, expansionist Muslims when faced down by hundreds of thousands of super intelligent, well informed Robert Spenceresque types who intend on being around for a very long time.

What happens then when many if not billions of exceptionally brilliant individuals do not die and do not yield their right to personal freedom? What happens when AI assisted individuals know as much about Islam (try EVERYTHING) as Muslim scholars do in debates of right and wrong, of moral and immoral.

What happens when Muslims are forced to face the reality of radical life extension? For one, they would be forever exposed to differing philosophies as their lives, world views and personal accountabilities change over the course of their extended lives...or they can continue their present course of birth/death and damn their newborn children to face down super intelligent and ageless "westerners". Undertaking advanced therapies to stop and/or reverse aging would be a clear rejection of death and an "afterlife". Enhancing ones intelligence could very well eliminate the ritualistic fear within Islamic culture.

From this "transhumanistic" point of view, the future of Islam and it's chances for spiritual survival look quite grim.

All we have to do is maintain our ways of life, vote in the people who best represent our civic wishes for life, liberty and happiness, vigilantly point out and criticize the false ideals of those who threaten our way of life and we will outrun Islams primitive intentions.

As far as Germany, France and all the other pacifists are concerned - only two choices are inevitable: either evolve or dissolve. That choice is ultimately life or death.

Posted by: Quantum Infidel at November 15, 2006 3:54 PM

Welcome to civilization Ramon, When did you emerge from the cave? if you don't like what you see you are free to go back, we won't stop you, promise! Just don't embarrass yourself and us with your caveman mutterings. Draw in the knowledge that’s freely available and then speak.

Let's attempt to understand this anachronism.

It's like you fail class 1 and rather than buckle up and get up to speed you dismiss the entire idea of knowledge. Other idiots join you in this misguided enterprise.

Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and now terrorism shows us what this is about; oppression, unadulterated savagery and the attempt to be 'proudly' primitive which is why we have trolls like Ramon spouting garbage wherever they get a forum. Getting their kicks oppressing women, random violence and nurturing a misplaced sense of superiority in their backward societies the savages are unable to reconcile to their irrelevance and the absence of respect for their ideas in the 21st century, while before they were happy to delude themselves in their own backyard they now want us to think of them in the same terms which is obviously not going to happen hence the tantrum of terrorism and the attempt to define the world on their terms, in the only way they know. with violence from behind, as you would expect from any self important woman bashing coward. While the world moves on in the voyage of discovery they move backwards in the quest of any failed man, respect me! Pathetic.

You see western civilization has won, the modern world is the western world, every single bit of it. We don't think of it in these terms but for some people it is 'civilizational' and to them I say gloat. Science, the quest for knowledge, liberty, equality, individuality and humanity has triumphed and hurray to that.

There is a reluctance to admit this in most non-western societies and there is a duality that never really come to the surface, in the case of islamic civilization some people are clearly taking this too personally. But its also our fault for getting involved. Let's get on with our lives and not get involved in their societies and how they want to live. There was no terrorism in Taliban Afghanistan, there was no terrorism in Saddam's Iraq, or Saudi Arabia or Iran in spite of the lack of democracy, absence of freedom and massive oppression that existed and exists in these states. There was and is no wave of popular indignation that we now see among muslims and some strands of opinion globally about these states as we do about 'American occupation'. So the best thing is too keep away and not waste resources and human life trying to bring democracy to the middle east. If they want freedom and democracy they will figure out a way to get it. This is of course grossly simplified and there are challenges but we need new thinking on this.

Posted by: raulb at November 15, 2006 4:06 PM

If there were any justice in the world, those leftie multicultists of the 1960s, who are now dead or very old, that presided over political correctness, stupidly believed that all cultures are alike, and through it enabled millions of Muslims to get into Western Europe and change our societies over the following decades, would be reincarnated as a non-Muslim 150 or 200 years in the future, in those same countries they'd lived in previously, with the memories of their past lives intact, to live through the damage they've done through their woolly-headed delusions of a melting pot of cultures, and maybe even see their own burka-clad great great granddaughters get beaten up by religious police for wearing a poor burka or get stoned to death on trumped up charges of adultery.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at November 15, 2006 4:06 PM

Altering slightly Adidas' slogan of yore:

"Die Marke mit die ein weis Streifen..."

Translation: The mark with one white stripe... Germany's slogan for today.

Of course I'm very glad that America and Britain kicked the vicious hun's teeth out, and shoved him to the curb -- but 60 years after saving the world from Germany's hatred based nightmare, who would have thought they'd go to such an opposite extreme of suicidal self loathing? Perhaps a skunk isn't even good enough for them... a skunk would at least make a stink about it all. And that's coming from a 7th generation American of German descent. How far that nation (and most of Europe for that matter) has fallen!

Posted by: jsla at November 15, 2006 4:15 PM

Or maybe it would have been better to say "brand" rather than "mark" in my translation... "The Brand with One White Stripe."

That's better...

Posted by: jsla at November 15, 2006 4:17 PM

Cornelius,

I think it stems from the following:

1. Nanny state that takes the sense of personal agency out of life.

The _Brave New World_ cradle-to-grave system takes most of the exciting things in life that make you righfully realize that you matter as a person, as opposed to as merely a cog, and it leaves the situation such that the most you can see getting out of life is cheap hedonistic thrills.

The sense that you matter, and that your family matters, and that you can really make a difference in making life better for your children and in supporting a free, creative, strong society; this sense really provides incentive for people to shoot for more in life than the occasional spike of endorphines--and I think for men especially.

There has got to be something of value competing with hedonism, and there can be. In America there has been and is, to a large extent. Religion and philosophy have a lot to do with encouraging pursuit of the larger goals, but the stability of the general population's committment to such religions and philosophies interrelates back and forth with the political realities that help determine the chances of meeting the non-hedonistic goals.

To the extent that we become a nanny state, we erode those incentives to focus on the larger goals and to hold tight to a religion or philosophy that celebrates them, and hedonism becomes more and more attractive relatively.

2. Natural difficulty in adapting to technological change.

Even aside from abortion, the instinctive incentives for reproduction can be short-circuited by the Pill, to such an extent as to decimate a population. I'm going to start there, because even if abortion were to become illegal, the ways in which people can choose to use the Pill can, alone, lead to the demographic problems we're seeing in Europe.

A society as proficient in chemistry as ours is going to be capable of making birth control pills; they're not so complex to invent. A society as free as ours is going to be mostly unwilling to make such pills illegal. So what really matters, I think, is incentives for the types of use of the Pill that can decimate populations.

I think there are two incentives for the destructive sorts of use of the Pill (I'm assuming that not all uses are destructive; it at least has some use for young couples getting their economic situation stabilised in their first few years of marriage).

One is simple hedonism, which works somewhat differently in women than in men. This goes back to 1 above, though in the case of women, most of them really want to fit in, so it is a bit more of a numbers game: women will adopt more responsible goals if the culture around (men and other women) them encourage it more, even apart from nanny-state issues directly.

Two is the fact that, with tech progress, there are a lot of very cool jobs out there competing with having children for women's attention. This isn't a bad thing. It is challenging, in a free country, because you can't just go forcing women out of the coolest jobs to keep up birthrate.

There's a factor in civilization's favor here, which is that, thanks to biology, women do tend to want children.

I think that, if men and the general culture (the messages in the media, educational institutions, community organizations, religious organizations) stay on course with the basics of American culture (and they probably will to the extent we have a market in ideas), most women will try to strike a balance, having about two or three kids, and taking some hits in their career (sacrificing promotions and overtime for family, and on average doing so more than men) to do this.

To the extent having kids is seen as an adventure in which you bring the traditions and love of your family to another generation to enjoy, and to the extent that women can continue to find husbands with goals larger than mere hedonism, America has a lot of hope for retaining a replacement birthrate despite the Pill.

3. Despair

To the extent people think they are living in a system doomed to inflicting severe suffering on its inhabitants in the future, they will not want to bring children into it. You don't want a person who would be, in a way, a combination of yourself and the person you love most, to go through a great deal of futile suffering in the future.

I think a lot of the utopian ideologies (especially those derived from Marxism, and this includes much of academic Feminism) around target the US as some sort of extreme evil because it is strong and stable despite not being their--or any--utopia. (Islam is a bit different in tending to see the US' strengh as coming from accidental implementation of aspects of Islamic law.)

The utopianism combined with inability to see that, in the US's case, much of the US' strength exists because it has a lot of good in it, creates an irrational, paranoid fear of great evil just around the bend (thus the constant and totally out of proportion comparison of things like Guantanamo to Nazi death camps).

To the extent people get caught up in this strain of utopianism and the way in which it understands the US (and there is great variation of extents), they also get caught up in a bunch of psychological incentives to avoid having children.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 15, 2006 4:25 PM

Like I said many times before, they are trying to Lebanize our Western countries:
http://cedarland.org/identity.html

The absurdity of our politicians and policy makers never ceases to amaze me. So what if there is a temporary dip in a country’s population; this is a natural pattern: things go in a cycle of peaking and ebbing. This is not a problem, but what is a problem is when you try to go against the natural order of things like our politicians are doing. They are mass importing people who are culturally, morally and ideologically opposite to us, rebels, to compensate for the population ebbs. In this way, not only are they compromising the native population’s chances to recover, but also are jeopardising our way of life and values. Truly, sometimes people know too much for their own good.

People, Jewish and whatnot, try to contain your resentment against past grievances. We need to be building alliances and not divisions, at least not among non-traitors. The Muhammad monarchy is the enemy of all those who aren’t ruled by it. Our efforts should be concentrated on increasing the force against our common enemy. This means we need to create connections with non-Muslims all over the world, and encourage them to fight this self-serving global force of evil. It is not to your benefit to alienate Germans, Christians, Jews, and others threatened by the Muhammad monarchy.

Posted by: ofcourse at November 15, 2006 4:36 PM

Nassem posted : Assalamau Laikum DP111. Absolutely spot on....I don't have much faith in entering paradise...at least not the 72 virgin lies. This is simply what some ancient imam said to spur peoples to lay their life on the line....I I don't belive in it.

Thank you Nasseem for an honest reply. But I do have a bone to pick with you. What is this Assalamu etc. On an English language website, I feel it is good manners to confine yourself to Greetings, or some other readily understood message, if that is, it is necessary at all.

On the question of your entry to Allah's paradise, I was not thinking of 72 virgins to cavort with. You brought that up. But I applaud your honesty that you have no faith in entering Allah's paradise. Why do you feel this way?

Posted by: DP111 at November 15, 2006 4:51 PM

The ONLY way to be sure is to actually do jihad and spill blood (all other muslims are judged on the sliding scale system of allah) --methinks our friend Naseem is a criminal.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 15, 2006 4:55 PM

I've been posting on this site using the moniker Malta_1565 for some time now. None of the postings on this thread (until this one) using the name Malta_1565 are mine.

Whoever is doing this: get your own moniker.

Posted by: Malta_1565 at November 15, 2006 4:57 PM

correction: Naseem is not a criminal but thinking about it (its the only way to be sure you get your 72 whores..er..virgins) criminal= doing jihad on innocent kafiir.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 15, 2006 5:00 PM

Population drops and increases have occurred throughout history. This is not something that should cause alarm, were it not for the fact that mass immigration and Muslim immigration in particular, may outstrip the local population and takeover the nation.

The other fallacy is that we need immigrants to take up the shortfall. This just is not true, as advanced societies think up novel ways to compensate for the drop in human numbers. This can take the form of advanced technologies or a re-organisation of the structure of the workplace. Longevity in Western countries now means that people can work till 75 - and many want to do so.

Bringing in immigrants, particularly Muslim immigrants, places a far greater burden on the state and society, as we can see even now, which in no way compensates for their economic advantage i.e., if they did not end up as a burden on the state.

My view, long held, is that we need to have a separation from the islamic world. As a start one needs to take them at their own words and agree wholeheartedly that there is indeed a dar ul islam and a dar ul harb, and for the good of humanity, infidels and muslims alike, it is better to live apart.

It is a sad fact that muslim presence anywhere leads to discomfort of already established communities. Soon the established community will leave or forced out by Jihad of mob violence, and yet another region becomes dar ul islam.

Muslim nations, left to their own devices, unable to export their excess population, an ever deteriorating infrastructure, increasing poverty and diminishing military power, will have no alternative but to reform islam. And even if they do not, they will not be a menace to the safety and security of the rest of the world, for the simple reason that they will not have access to harvest infidel lives.

Harsh as this is, it is the most humane way to progress. What frightens me is that we are moving towards a new world war that is quite unlike previous world wars. This world war will be a civil war ie a global civil war - the very worst type imaginable. Else we are looking forward to a Three Conjecture scenario leading to deaths on an unprecedented scale.

Separation, which can be done in a humane manner, leaves hope for the future for everybody. Politically impossible at the moment? - Yes. Yet precedents are there in recent history, where exchanges of populations were considered the only way to secure a reasonably peaceful outcome.

Posted by: DP111 at November 15, 2006 5:06 PM

DP111 says: "Population drops and increases have occurred throughout history. This is not something that should cause alarm, were it not for the fact that mass immigration and Muslim immigration in particular, may outstrip the local population and takeover the nation."

It should cause alarm for Europe. The fertility rate of indigenous Europeans is at the non recovery point. No civilization in history has been able to recover from as low a birthrate as Europe's. I don't think they'll be the exception to the rule.

Posted by: atheling at November 15, 2006 5:28 PM

atheling posted : It should cause alarm for Europe. The fertility rate of indigenous Europeans is at the non recovery point. No civilization in history has been able to recover from as low a birthrate as Europe's. I don't think they'll be the exception to the rule.

That is under the assumption that the birth and death rates stay the same as they are over an extended period of time. Then there is the assumption that civilisation can only exist when a certain population level is reached. I take your point atheling, but there are other factors at play now that were not in the past.

We would not be having this debate were it not for Muslim immigration and its high birth rate posing an existential threat to Europe.

Posted by: DP111 at November 15, 2006 5:40 PM

Historically almost all predictions of the future were wrong. It didn’t seem to matter if the predication was based on some type of analysis or a premonition of some type. I predict there will be no muslims by 2050. That prediction is based strictly on wishful thinking and could prove just as accurate as the one in the article.

Posted by: Ronin at November 15, 2006 6:00 PM

Amen to that Ronin.

Posted by: DP111 at November 15, 2006 6:13 PM

Thanks Cornelisu for the truly fascistic point of view.

You will of course take exception but your views, your rants, your ideologies are (as regards women, sovereignty over the body, abortion, gays etc) exactly,, and I mean exactly the same as Adolph Hitlers, and incidentally absolutely no different than that of Islam.

Oppression is oppression, fascism is fascism, matters not from whence it comes.

Posted by: Nariz at November 15, 2006 6:29 PM

Ramon and Naseem, what you wish for will never happen. so go back to your cesspoolstan. the taliban made sure no ordinary people had any modern communications, ie tv, etc. but the leaders of islam had their tv, video, computers. islam is nothing more than a sinister facists ideology. you ramon and nassem have wasted yourselves on this evil cult called islam.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 15, 2006 7:03 PM

History isn't run by statistics. A 100 years ago in Paris when traffic was run by horses. The people asked themselves how they by the year 2000 would clean up all the horsesh#t from the streets. They never thought of the cars who would run by that time.

Posted by: DrWolffenstein at November 15, 2006 7:10 PM

Methinks Naseem has gone delusional. Something tells me AIG's offspring will kick some serious Muslim butt when/if the time comes. Doesn't matter if it's in Germany or in the US.

If the Germans do get their act together, look out. Same goes for the rest of Europe-even if the natives are outnumbered by the time the final reckoning comes they won't leave anything of use left for the new self styled "master race". And they'll send plenty of them to visit Mr. Perfect in hell too.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 15, 2006 7:42 PM

Is nariz off his meds again?

Posted by: Gary at November 15, 2006 7:47 PM

mrsmomomoto, interesting thoughts there.

Posted by: Infidel33 at November 15, 2006 7:59 PM

I don’t think most of the posters here will live that long to see the possible reality that Germany becomes a Muslim state by 2050. Better think for ourselves! It makes more sense to focus on saving for our retirement and investing in our 401(k) now toward 2050. American government has already been technicly bankrupt. If we don’t think for ourselves, who will care about us? Germans? Muslims?

Posted by: kung fu fighter at November 15, 2006 8:03 PM

The Germans destroyed 6 million Jews who represented hope, freedom, tolerance, kindness, compassion, and love.

The Germans have been replacing those 6 millions Jews with hateful, oppressive, intolerant and merciless Muslims.

I agree with Ronin. After the Great War ended in 1918, no one thought that such a horror could repeat and exceed it. No one knows what the future will hold. Life is unpredictable. People are becoming mindful of the threat. Look at the progress being made worldwide against Muslims and their death cult. A few more years, slowly but surely, we will be making great headway.

This article does not take into consideration the possibility of more frequent Islamic attacks in Western nations. If this occurs, people will demand mass 'repatriations' of the Muslim ummah. We can reverse this!

Any thought given to accepting more and more immigrants from South America? They are a largely Christian people who may fit into our society better than Muslims.

?

Posted by: Sir Oinks Alot at November 15, 2006 8:08 PM

Mrsmomomoto,

Interesting comments. Thank you.

Khalil Gibron once wrote that "truth is paradox."

My thinking is that the very factors that account for the civilizational success of the Western world - freedom and then the accompanying affluence that almost invariably follows - are what has contributed most to our decline.

It's almost axiomatic....expansion leads to eventual contraction.

What is the answer?

The Romans debated for over a century on how to arrest their decline. They made speeches touting the importance of fertility...but Roman women continued to refuse to have children.

One gets a feeling of deja vu.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 15, 2006 8:13 PM

Gary -- Nariz is off in his own little world of delusion AGAIN. He thinks that he's perfect, and that we're all just as bad as radical Islam -- forgetting that HE has any faults. All he knows how to do is point blame, when it's a MIRROR he should be reaching for.

Posted by: champ at November 15, 2006 8:22 PM

They had contraception back in Ancient Rome?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 15, 2006 8:23 PM

Voltair,

Abortion is an ancient practice....as is coitus interruptus.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 15, 2006 8:35 PM

Abortion? Coitus interruptus? I know of a couple who would have done the world a great deal of good had they tried these things some 1400 years ago.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 15, 2006 9:27 PM

Hey Ramon
I am absolutely amazed by your informative post "Islam Will Replace Collapsing American Empire"

Posted by: Katrina at November 15, 2006 9:53 PM

It would appear that this guy Nariz resides in an asylum or Islamic convalescent home somewhere and periodically gets to use his therapists' PCs when they are not looking-at which he point he dirties up this blog with delusions about the evils of America and Judeo-Christianity.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 15, 2006 9:56 PM

Ramon:

What planet have YOU been living on? It sure as hell isn't this one, THAT'S for certain.

Firstoff America is no empire and it is in danger of collapsing. Its economy is healthy, Americans' lifespan is at its highest ever; life here is good and there is absolutely no reason to believe that America will EVER be less than it now is!!!

Islam is institutionalized murder and warfare by the way. And that is the real reason for the bloodshed that has characterized life in the Middle East for over 1400 years. The Islamosphere is and has always been the most unsafe place anyone could ever have hoped to live in. The Islamosphere nations will never be safe. Thus Islam can NEVER make Americans safe or safer--although your concern for our welfare is truly touching I must say. We prefer to live without ideologies of any kind. You can keep Islamic ideology. If you believe Islamic propaganda that is your prerogative (but you must be pretty dumb if you do!!!).

Islam is absolutely riddled with orders to kill those who differ from ther doctrines set up by al-lah. It doesn't take much to get executed if you live under Islam: heresy merits the death penalty(which includes not following through on all of the Kuran's orders); women in Saudi Arabia are routinely executed for DRIVING automobiles (apparently a heretical act in Islam). Islam executes those who are perceived as leaving Islam the 'crime' is called apostasy. Those who disagree with Islamic doctrine can be executed for heresy or apostasy if the local imama demands it (you better hope the imams like you or else they will deglare you a heretic and get you killed---how 'safe' I feel 'safer' already!). Women can be arbitrarily executed opn their husbands' orders if the mere SUSPICION of having committed adultery arises. Should a local conflict arise children are endangered: Muslims have NO PROBLEM AT ALL abusing their children as human shields and even strapping bombs on children (the kids have no say in the matter; they just get brainwashed into believing heaven awaits the when they get blown up). No Islamic society has ever respected or valued human life and as such no Islamic society could ever be safe! ANd more to the point, there is no reason to believe that will change.

Islamic nations are safe? Since when? Iraq has been a war zone for two thousand years as the Sunii and Shia battle it out. The same is true of the Kurds who are periodically masscred by Shia. There are periodic bloodbaths in northern Africa between 'fundamentalist' Muslims and those who aren't. Hundreds of thousands of MUSLIMS have been murdered in all this infighting. Taliban in Afghanistan murdered hundreds of thousands of Afghani MUSLIM civilians for supposed crimes against Islam (they marched into the place decreed the locals heretics and started massacring them). Gee. How safe!!!!

And for your personal information, America's crime problems stem largely from its Third World immigrant population which arrived mostly after 1960. The more people we get from the Third World countries where there is no value on human life the more violent crime we get. Statistically the most significant target of violent crime is caucasian women. Muslim males in particular have a penchant for sexually assaulting them, which has also been the case in western European nations. America's crime is mostly NOT homegrown, as you seem to think, the same of which cannot be said of the Islamosphere countries where what is perceived as crime (murder, theft, kidnapping, etc) is NOT crime when done against the infidels. So crime magically disappears in the Islamic nations when it is targeting non-Muslims. In the Philippines al-Qaeda operatives blew themselves up trying to concoct explosives to kill the pope with! Leave it to Islam.

Ramon: you have brainwashed into believing Americans are dumb. Some no doubt are; but most aren't. In fact, America was founded by world-class educators contrary to what you probably have been told. Remember Muslims have never been able to check their sources--we suggest you check yours first before posting the stupid stuff here you post.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 15, 2006 10:26 PM

Cornelius is absolutely correct.

Due to massive use of contraception and infanticide (including abortion) the Roman Empire underwent a massive demographic shift in the 2nd-3rd centuries.

Due to Christian values, such as regection of abortion, contraception, promiscuity, and promotion of strong family values, Christian families had massive numbers of children, while the pagans bred themselves out of existance.

Even when the Empire used monetary incentives (and this during a time of extreme taxation) for pagans to produce children, they still refused to do so.

If I may recommend it, I suggest reading "The Rise of Christianity" by Rodney Stark. It is an excellent book that details this, among other things.

His other books "The Victory of Reason" and "Cities of God" I also highly recommend.

Posted by: Constantine at November 15, 2006 11:47 PM

More piffle on the Myth of "Eurabia" (See July 26th issue of that ultra-liberal mag called The Economist!)

I think that the majority of the children of Muslims in Europe are far more liberal than we give them credit for. Like those here in the US, they value the freedoms they live under, and question the premises that their parents espouse.

Music is an interesting an stark demarcator. Fundamentalist Muslims are nearly universal in the abhorrence of any melody other than the Qur'an. It is well known that the Taliban banned all music (however I ask just how many could even stereos to play it before the ban?)

Despite all the virulent rhetoric spouted by Wahabbis against music in Saudi, music is NOT banned. I dare say it is far to loved by most Arabs and Muslims for them to do so.

Even in Iran they cannot stop it.

In Turkey, the late Zeki Müren succesfully (and most FABULOUSLY) confronted a lot of prevailing conservative attitudes. I think many of my fellow Americans would find him a little bit too similar to Liberace for their own comfort level!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeki_Müren

The fabulous mr. Müren's work has been continued by the famous Turkish transexual singer Bülent Ersoy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bülent_Ersoy

Most young Turkish friends of mine greatly admire "her" vocal abilities. Is this a signal that germany is about ot be overun by militants? How about Militant Islamic transvestites?

Music is the most important tool that Muslims have to confront the fundamentalism and the terrorist ideology. Seems to me it works to! Much more so than many commentators here would probably care to admit!

http://www.isufirock.com/

In particular, please check out this song condemning terrorism and violence:

http://www.isufirock.com/music/no_more_video.html

the above is actively supported by Muslim Republicans like the hasan Family. I wonder why? If moderate Muslims who openly and actively work to confront the terrorist ideology are supporting this, maybe more of my fellow Americans should recognize this and deign to support them?

http://muslimsforamerica.us/

For the record, Islam is no monolith of purely fundamentalist zealots any more than Christianity is represented by the Serb militia that raped and killed tens of thousands of Muslims.

Posted by: zzazzeefrazzee at November 16, 2006 12:44 AM

Cornelius, *couples*, not women alone, make most reproductive decisions. Obviously, having no more than 2 children makes sense for most couples, for their stress levels, the women's health, the children's education level and parental attention and for wider environmental reasons.

Most people realise that the world is overpopulated, that we're running out of fossil fuels, and that climate change creates risks for future populations that some of us don't want to expose descendants to.

I know that many educated Germans my age were very aware of overpopulation issues during the last 20 years - the 'reproductive years' that many did not reproduce in. Their problem is that they still have a government that keeps importing more people.

Declining populations should be handled with a different approach than 'OMG, our national productivity is declining, we must import lots of immigrants'. It is an opportunity for some areas to be given back to nature and the remaining population to co-operate to look after itself within smaller areas. Retiring at 65, when people can remain healthy and productive until far greater ages will become a thing of the past. Staying productive in part-time work is increasingly popular with older people.

My partner and I have decided not to reproduce. New Zealand still has a rising population, but I don't think it should have. I like NZ just as it is: plenty of space for growing food and plenty of wild spaces for our native flora and fauna.

I fully support contraception and, yes, abortion (ideally to be replaced, when scientifically possible, with embryo transplant), based on people's decisions regarding their wellbeing and what they perceive as the wellbeing of the world.

The fact that many muslims, and people like you, don't share these views does not mean that my country has to be opened up to floods of immigrants, or to floods of unwanted children from oppressed women without access to birth control.

To summarise: a smaller, highly educated, healthy world population would be a good thing. I think capitalism needs to get its head around that and make it work.

Posted by: Lili at November 16, 2006 1:08 AM

Alright, so here is a theory I have been considering as of recently during one of my baths.

Let's say, that these leftist pigs do in fact allow Muslims into every country, and they establish a majority, and all of the Christian/Jewish population is put under Islamic rule. The Islamic king system is set up - the Caliphate thing, and he unites the world in "peace" (for irony). After the Caliphate is re-set up, the rapture would happen, and all of the Dhimmi Christians would be pulled up to heaven. The Caliphate guy, or Anti-Christ, would then be pissed off. The Jews, or at least most of them, would convert to Christianity, as they would know what is happening. And then 7 years, after all of the trials and tribulations, the Christians retake the world from the Caliphate, or Anti-Christ. Boom! Take that Islam! hahaha

I am a little hazy on my end time scripture, but in any case I thought it was a pretty cool, a "what if" type thought.

Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at November 16, 2006 1:13 AM

The Lord does work in mysterious ways, after all :-)

Posted by: TheVoiceofTruth at November 16, 2006 1:14 AM

The most pathetic thing about Europe today is their total self-imposed identity crisis. The West is learning the hard way that liberalistic anti-Christian Godless pc nonsense is a recipe for destruction in today's world.

Posted by: Tookson at November 16, 2006 2:04 AM

2050? Won't be around to see it. Woot!

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at November 16, 2006 4:24 AM

From a related post on "The coming ICE age in Europe" -
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32157

"What can be done to stop the islamisation of the west? A few possibilties:

1. Stop further muslim immigration immediately and thoroughly.

2. Deport all muslims not willing to respect the laws, customs and traditions of the societies they live in. All convicted muslim criminals must be sent to the country of their ancesters, immediately, at public cost.

3. Disenfranchise all those who declare themselves to be practicing muslims, because this automatically means they do not believe in democracy which relies on respect for another point of view. In fact, they are committed to its destruction. This would also stop the venal politicians from pandering to every whim of the muslims.

4. Make a basic understanding of the fundamental tenets of islam compulsory in colleges, so that the educated people at least know what they are up against."

To this can be added the stopping of all State funded Welfare schemes for these immigrant freeloaders.

Posted by: Dunk at November 16, 2006 5:50 AM

zzazzeefrazzee: You kid no one but yourself.

This music of the misguided will have no place when the evil empire of true islam takes over. In the meantime the shia and infidel mice can continue to play softly while the wahhabi cat's on its way.

Posted by: Dunk at November 16, 2006 5:54 AM

One of the reasons for the rapid and peaceful spread of Islam was the purity of its doctrine - Islam calls for faith in only one God. This, coupled with the Islamic concepts of equality, justice and freedom, resulted in a united and peaceful community. People were free to travel from Spain to China without fear, and without crossing any borders.

As millions of people embraced Islam, they brought with them the heritage of ancient civilizations like Egypt, Greece, India, Persia, and Rome. Muslims cherished these cultures' knowledge and took great pains to preserve their libraries and honor and the scholars residing in their cities.

Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 7:11 AM

The thing labeled, packaged, and sold as "The Holocaust" is a HOAX.
This does not imply no atrocites were committed(or that the Nazi regime was "good"), only that there was no "extermination policy", no "extermination camps", no "gas chambers" and no "extermination of the Jews" attempted.
"The Holocaust" was a spin-off of war propaganda, pragmatically adopted by the U.S. government. "The Holocaust" was invented and exploited by Zionists(and of course "communists" too) in the government(there were/are many).

This("The Holocaust"myth) is a(if not THEE) fundamental premise upon which our perceptions of the world and history has been based on for the last 50 years, as such it has been a driving factor in our opinions, and our decisions based on those opinions. One may trace many policies and ideas to this belief in "The Holocaust".
But they are all based on a lie. Rational decisions are highly unlikely.
Any objective perusal of scientifically disciplined "Revisionist" research shows the fraud.

Anyways, the destruction of the German heart and soul(and "race") even before the so-called "Final Solution" was allegedly adopted was articulated by this propagandist- which shows the true face of Talmudic vengence:
"Germany Must Perish", by
Theodore N. Kaufman

"And there is one, And Only One, such total Penalty: Germany must perish forever!"

"In fact --not in fancy!"
http://www.codoh.com/germany/GERPERISH.HTML

Posted by: Novy Mir at November 16, 2006 8:23 AM

LILI: "The fact that many muslims, and people like you, don't share these views does not mean that my country has to be opened up to floods of immigrants, or to floods of unwanted children from oppressed women without access to birth control."

RESPONSE: You know nothing of my views on abortion or contraception. I was merely trying to ask the hard questions...in a desperate search for answers.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 16, 2006 9:34 AM

Meanwhile, everybody, I highly recommend Mark Steyn's 'America Alone.'

Steyn is much more the pundit than the scholar, but this works in his favor in many respects. He's a brilliant writer....and sometimes hilarious.

Being an ardent believer in demography and its implications, the picture Steyn paints of Europe is one of total pessimism.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 16, 2006 9:38 AM

Ramon -- have you just come out of a coma or something. Have you been asleep for say the last, 1400 years?

You stated that Islam has "equality, justice and freedom". If this is true, then why are we so repulsed by your Islam? If Islam is so great, then why are your boys blowing up buildings and cutting of heads? To show us how great Islam is?

I have been blind -- I think I get it!

(look up sarcasm when you're done reading this)

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 11:36 AM

Internment camps/labor camps w/ voluntary deportation cavat... All tribes fight and have all throughout history, don't let yours be overrun because of an alien inflicted liberal guilt. Stand up and be proud of yourselves again. German people: you are most worthy. Don't let ANYBODY tell you any different!

Posted by: squire at November 16, 2006 11:36 AM

Ramon, sadly, I think you've been brainwashed.

"One of the reasons for the rapid and peaceful spread of Islam was the purity of its doctrine..." You seem to be confusing Islam with Christianity. Christianity was originally spread peacefully, under violent persecution, by individuals embracing its doctrines about the God of love. Islam was, of course, spread by killing infidels, emulating Mohammed himself, who personally killed hundreds of people.

"This coupled with the Islamic concepts of equality, justice, and freedom resulted in a united and peaceful community." If you are a Muslim, my friend, you should know that Islam specifically does not teach human equality. Justice, in Islam, is executing the will of Allah which is to physically, politically, and socially supress non-Muslims. And freedom in Islam is the strict adherence to Sharia religious laws in the worship of Allah, a god who bears no resemblence to the God of the Bible.

You speak of people being able to freely travel from China to Spain w/o having to cross any borders. Of course, the reason they didn't have to cross any borders is because all of these nations had been subdued by the Arabic and Turkish Muslim regimes, and their borders were all eradicated.

"Peace" means "murder" in the Islamic dictionary.

Posted by: Tookson at November 16, 2006 11:37 AM

Re: Germany "well on the way to becoming a Muslim state by 2050"

First step in the right direction

Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 12:26 PM

Lili you are greatly diluting yourself. This world is able to handle many more people than you can possibly imagine. The smart thing for you to do is procreate as much as possible so your children can preserve and advance your values to those who have yet to share them. Not only that, they will be able to prevent that which you hold so dear, nature, from the conquest of the desolate desert spreaders, Muslims:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=630698#630698

Ramon, you speak a lot of untruths. The people who kept the ME running smoothly and contributed the most from it were the Christians and Jews. Once they were completely decimated and the Muslims became fully indoctrinated in Islam, you got the current ME, Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, Nigeria, and 90% of the other world conflicts going on today. Islam is Nazism, and like it, spreads nothing but destruction, oppression, and desolation wherever it dominates.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Posted by: ofcourse at November 16, 2006 1:39 PM

And our parents were worried the whole world might end up speaking German if America didn't enter WWII.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 16, 2006 1:41 PM

Ramon -- Check this out:

http://www.shoebat.com

This guy is an "EX" Muslim. Why? Read and find out.

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 1:41 PM

"And our parents were worried the whole world might end up speaking German if America didn't enter WWII."

-Isabella the Crusader

"By the next century, German will be spoken only at Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels and Goehring's Monday night poker game in hell."

-Mark Steyn

Posted by: atheling at November 16, 2006 2:04 PM

"Payback's a bitch."

Remember Ynkedoodl2, the Palestinians say the SAME thing. Just a thought. But I know you know that.

Posted by: Pseudonymous at November 16, 2006 2:07 PM

"My partner and I..." Hahaha.

Posted by: Pseudonymous at November 16, 2006 2:09 PM

Lili is delusional. Let's do some simple math. If every couple (that's TWO people), have TWO children, then their society is at REPLACMENT level. Two people have two children, the original two die, then the two children replace them. Got it? That's stable. The US is at that level. (Actually the replacement level is 2.1 and the US hovers around there).

Now, if all couples have just ONE child, they have cut their population in half by the next generation. See? Not stable. Spain and Italy are at that level with 1.1 birthrate. Bye bye Spain and Italy very soon...

So if all couples have NO children, then by the next generation you are all gone. Poof! No people left.

But then, it's mainly the deluded, idiotic left who aren't having the kids, so maybe that's a good thing.

Posted by: atheling at November 16, 2006 2:11 PM

mmmm hmmmm. atheling, I think you've got it down pat.

btw, my comment to Ynkedoodl2 was not a dig. But one must think about exactly WHO is to be paid back. Little pre-school German children perhaps? Lets not go there, please.

Posted by: Pseudonymous at November 16, 2006 2:53 PM

Sorry Lili, but I have to agree with Atheling and Of Course. It's just a plain old numbers game. If we continue to reduce the number of children we have and the Muslims continue to have lots of kids, who do you think will be making the laws and voting in candidates with their special interests in mind?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 16, 2006 3:20 PM

memo to Novy mir:

Are you trying to deny that millions of human beings were NOT murdered during the course of WW2???

You are 100% WRONG. And you are fooling no one!! Millions of persons WERE in fact murdered by the Germans during the 1930s and 1940s.

The United States military physically shut down Germany's concentration camps in the early 1940s. These include Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen and many others.

What our soldiers saw in these camps --which have been left standing to this day as testament to the reality that WAS IN FACT the holocaust-- were millions of people in advanced states of starvation an disease, who had been beaten repeatedly, and worse, there were found mechanical apparatus apparatus used to slaughter multitudes of human beings such as furnaces, gas chambers, acid-dispensing showers and the like.

The holocaust was real. The only note I will add is that the victims of it were not exclusively jews.

Germans don't get to feel sorry for themselves over this issue. And if they don't move on, that is their problem.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 16, 2006 3:44 PM

Silly Dunk,

You sure are full of "bunk" (or rather, hot air). Learn a little Arabic will ya! Many eloquent Muslims are in fact confronting the terrorist ideology, on many platforms, here and abroad. Of course, Robert needs to scrutinize everyone of them, to find something he thinks is wrong (Of course, I wonder just what he might find if he was so diligent in srutinizing these comments by some of his more zealous readers and supports?). Many openly and aggressively support our efforts and us.

Osama wanted to start a religious war, and some of my fellow Americans are all to eager to let him ave one. As your fellow American, sorry, but I won't have MY tax dollars spent fighting and evangelical "christian" crusade!

Even in Saudi, mouthpiece of the Wahabbis, things are changing, if you deign to look. Sadly, few are much inlcined to pay any attention to curious events like this:

i openly and proudly support those Muslims who serve in our military, FBI, CIA, and other branches of government. they provide much needed services such as tranlsation, they guard our embassies, and (dare I say it) are even admired by some of my fellow Americans who served with them.

Of course, many are wont to claim that most Muslims engage in taqiyya, (which is not true, even Daniel Pipes mentioned that this term is now commonly incorrectly by some of the media pundits today- an utter misnomer for something that really and truly is a Shia convention. We shoudl just call it what it is - double speak- and not invent terms from half-baked morons who can't manage to learn even a little bit of Arabic).

The thing is, most people here just need to vent readily eat up the alarmism without using their brain. God forbid that there are Muslims who act humanely, who are actively standing up, within Islamic society, dare confront the violent ideology of the Islamists, and actually do a much better job of addressing these issues and speaking to the hearts and minds of Muslims far more sucessfully than a bunch of Angry Americans seem to fathom. They also do it far more personal risk than many here can begin to imagine. Just what’s wrong with supporting them?

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2006/11/horde_storms_co.php#more

Violent fundies don’t speak for all Muslims, nor are they "true Muslims" any more than Serb militia (and their supporter in churches here in teh US) were "true Christians" while they raped and massacred thousands of Bosnians. Did you take a public stand against atrocities and rape in the name of Christianity that have occurred in recent years?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010319/drakulic

Daniel Pipes has rightly mentioned some Muslims that have stood up to the Wahhabis & Co- in fact some who have done this now for centuries. he has rightly pointed to Sufis for starters… think they aren;t true Muslims? Well, I don;t think that is how they see it as all, but what do you know?

Care to have a look at Turkey, Malaysia, and the Bosnian Republic? Just which one is "Islamist"? More Muslims live in India than in any other country. While fundamentalist Jihadis are attempting to impose their own ultra-right regime unilateraly, many moderate Indian Muslims are totally against this:

http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2006/20060530_baroda.htm

Care to look at what life is like in the UAE? Kuwait? or Bahrayn? Most of the Muslims living there are more liberal than those in the US. Please identify which of the female members of these royals families wears a niqab (face veil), or even a hijab (which overs their hair, and is no different from a nun's habit) Care to acknowledge the efforts the Tunisian and Algerian goverment have taken against Islamic fundamentalism there???

No, it’s not perfect, and it’s not America. There’s plenty room for improvement, and many in the region and within those societies are arguing for just that. Why not applaud them? Let’s remember what a “free country” we were here at home during the 50’s, and how much blood was lost in the march to Civil Rights, shall we?

Please take a very close look at the web sites I posted. Do you know happen to know any moderate Muslims that live here in this country that hate the double speak? I know a lot of Persian expats from Iran that HATE the mullahs and openly applaud and support our efforts. They broadcast from media like Rang-a rang:

http://rangarangtv.com/

whoops! guess someone will heave to learn a little langauge to understand that ! Please let me suggest a good web site where you can start to remedy that little problem:

www.easypersian.com

Plenty of young people from Pakistan are here in this country (and love it) that can’t stand the indoctrination of the madrassahs as well. You can read all about it on this site (Muslims Republicans, by the way):

http://muslimsforamerica.us/

Gee, that’s why the FBI has gone out of their way to actively recruit them in the past few weeks. You got a problem with that? I’m all for it!

What about this group, which has been, interestingly enough, endorsed by Daniel Pipes. Care to have a look?

www.freemuslims.org

Plenty of Saudis that loathe the oppression of their country ( which is why they go drinking in Bahrayn or Swimming in Alexandria or Sharm el Sheikh). Maybe that means that they aren’t “true to their fiath: un your book, but to me, it just effectively demonstrates to me the utterly simplistic and myopic terms in which you view the world around you.

Think Muslims in America don't take a stand? then look at this:

http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-05/2005-05-13-voa38.cfm?CFID=58246258&CFTOKEN=42752990

http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html

http://www.awesomelibrary.org/Muslims.html

http://www.amuslimvoice.org/

http://onthescene.msnbc.com/baghdad/2006/09/sunni_shiite_el.html

Do you think that all Islamic religious leaders support terrorist ideology throughout the world? then take a look at this:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.harunyahya.com/c_against_terrorism.php

http://www.m-a-t.org/

think that Islami is incapable of reform? here are some very brave women who are challenging the status quo. What have you done to thank them?

http://irshadmanji.com/

Mona el Tahawy is a refreshing voice in the media.
I think that this woman should be syndicated in the US.

www.monaeltahawy.com

Here is her recent article about so-called “leaders” like Hilaly in Australia. Did you know that an awful lot of Australian Muslims got pretty upset with him? Or that he was promptly suspended from his position by the board that hired him- I wish they would fire him outright of course, but heck, public censure is a nice start- and it provides a perfect opportunity to publicly air their dismay, and punish him by forcing him to accommodate to some discomfort. I’m all for that.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=76632

Exactly what prevents you from vocing support for them while they voice their support for us? Is it that you don't want them to support us? If so, please recall "the enemy of my friend is my enemy". What is WRONG with SUPPORTING those Muslims who support the USA and our efforts? Who desperately want greater freedom, pluralism, human rights, and democratization in the region? What's wrong with OPENLY supporting those that do that?

Apparently I can accept the fact that there are humane Muslims that really and truly exist who very much beileive in just that. Why? It’s pretty simple. Learn a little language. Travel, get to know some of them personally. Not only in the US and the west, but abroad too. If you go into the situation looking for a fight, you’ll get one. If you’re looking for warts, you’ll find them. But if that is all you are intrested in, you are missing the boat entirely!

The brave souls that stand up, honestly, really, and truly, without even a hint of double speak, engender far greater risk and harm to themselves than you do, and far more than you are willing to acknowledge. It seems to me that the only reason preventing you from supporting them, even though they openly support us, is the fact that they are Muslim. Hence, I must include that you must be some kind of bigot.

If you want to say that these are just "Muslim-lite" or "Psuedo-Muslims" fine, but just remember that you are stabbing our friends in the backs, which only serves to help our enemies. Let’s be fair and compare the codes of Justinian and the rights of non-Christians under Christian law when you drag out medieval fatwas.

Shall we take a little look at the historical treatment of Jews under Christian yoke? My Jewish friends in Istanbul felt nothing but warmth and sympathy from their Turkish neighbors after the bombing of the Synagogue in Shishli. Rabbis and Imams marched in the street arm-in-arm in protest. The father of one of the IRHABIYEEN publicly condemned his son’s violent actions. (Btw- The Arabic word for terrorist IRHABI, plural IRHABIYEEN, something many here could stand to learn). There are plenty of Muslims who abhor their actions and will NEVER condescend to refer to such people as "Shaheed" or martyrs. Is there something wrong with that? Do you have a problem with people that take such a brave stance? I wonder why? Perhaps you are motivated by nothing more than sectarian prejudice? It’s not truth, but bigotry, pure and simple.

A hello of a lot of Muslims are sick and tired of the fact that so many in the US are fixated on violent fundamentalists and think theyy are the only “true” Muslims. No airtime is given to those that are doing everything in their power to subvert that paradigm. CAIR is not the only representative out there, and maybe we should look at that? Hmmmmm.

If only 1/10 of the energy spent spewing alarmism and vitriol were diverted to starting the relevant language programs we desperately need to WIN the war on terror, we might actually get somehwere.

Gee, maybe that's why our president doesn't echo your sentiments (praise and thank God for that!)

Posted by: zzazzeefrazzee at November 16, 2006 9:02 PM

Sorry Cornelius, clearly I misinterpreted your post.

Obviously 2 children per woman is near stable, and many western countries have that number. My point was that, even if the population decreases, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

If the whole world were truly democratic, i.e. there were no borders and you and I had one vote in 6 billion for every major decision, that woudn't suit us, would it? All decisions would be dominated by the most overpopulated countries, and they would soon vote our resources away from us and flood our countries.

So when we say we want democracy, we really mean sharing it within our respective countries with people who have at least the same commitment to democracy.

Letting in vast numbers of people who do not have that commitment, due to their belief system, will mean that they use democracy to destroy democracy, obviously.

Don't blame people who don't reproduce for this situation. The fault lies with politicians and economists who believe that constant population growth is a good thing.

Most western populations would probably stabilise once people worried about overpopulation were satisfied that the next generations will have a safe environment and adequate resources. Preferably without too many people who want to live under a theocracy.

*So don't let them in*. Find ways for a smaller population to live comfortably in its country. And watch people become more confident about the future and start breeding.

Posted by: Lili at November 16, 2006 9:10 PM

Lilly,

Apology accepted.

But as far as your argument goes, you're overlooking the primary reason for the necessity of bringing in immigrants....which is to maintain the workforce that will keep society going and finance the social security and medical needs of retirees.

Your advocacy of low-birth rates makes no provision for financing these programs for millions of European retirees.

If one accepts Europe's anemic fertility rate as a fact of life, the only vehicle to prevent fiscal collapse is the importation of workers. The crime of Europe's elite was not in letting immigrants come per se, but rather WHO they let come.

Indian Hindus, East Asians, Middle Eastern Christians and Latin Americans for example could all make a welcome contribution to Europe and enrich its culture and society. Unfortunately, the majority of immigrants inundating Europe today are Muslims who largely resist assimilation and who threaten to transform the Continent into something unrecognizable in the span of less than a century.

But Europeans are so politically correct that the debate on immigration revolves not around WHO is coming in, but whether or not anyone should come.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 16, 2006 11:14 PM

zzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaafffffffrrrrrrrrraaaaaaazzzzzzeeeeeeee -

Dang -- every time I write you my keyboard gets stuck -- I'm really sorry. Yeah -- this is a very familiar post, as it reminds me of another one you left on another thread.

This is Jihad Watch, in case you lost your way and thought that this was some kind of Muslim Sympathizer forum. And Jihad Watch is dedicated to exposing the Truth about "radical" Islam. Have you heard of it?

You might want to take the time to educate on this brand of Islam, because it's coming to a town near you, darlin'.

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 11:27 PM

Zzzazafrazee:

Indeed you and your freedom loving Muslims have a lot of work ahead of you. I suggest one good palce to start is purging the hate filled, anti American views coming from mosques as presented by the Freedom Foundation and Muslim shiek Ahmed Mansour here in Boston. However, I find it strange that the Islamic Society of Boston is suing him for doing just that. I saw none of your group coming out in support of him.

Thus, a second point would be to free your so called American-Islamic institutions from terror related ideologists. The likes of the ISB and CAIR do not provide viable sources for Americans to believe that you want to become part of our culture. When your spokesmen aspire to see America turn into a theocracy under Sharia law you will not produce trust in Americans.

Three: Deal with the fact that the Koran and the examples of Mohammed do contain perversive, totalitarian and violent inspiration that clearly establish a division between Muslim and non-Muslims. Accept the fact that this is the food that feeds your terrorist inspired kinsmen and then establish theological and psychiatric remedies for their diseased thinking.

Four: Seek publicity. The PC press is always drooling for stories that present Muslims in a good light My local paper would probably send 3 or 4 reporters to your very door. Seek out and debate those that espouse the