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Tiny Minority of Extremists Update: the indomitable Tawfik Hamid here confirms what was acknowledged yesterday by the US Military Academy: that far from being that tiny minority, "radical Islam, sometimes called Salafism, is so deeply embedded in the Arab world that Salafis now constitute a 'majority or significant portion' of the Muslim population in the Middle East and North Africa." And elsewhere in the Islamic world also.
"Fundamental Islam linked to terrorism," by Jay Tokasz for the Buffalo News, with thanks to Mark:
Dr. Tawfik Hamid nearly boarded a plane decades ago on an eventual path to holy war with the United States.Instead, he took an opposite route and now travels throughout Europe and North America warning about what he experienced firsthand as a member of a jihadist group run by Ayman al-Zawahiri, the current second in command of al-Qaida.
"One single mistake, and I would've been sitting with al-Zawahiri instead of sitting with you now," he said in a recent interview with The Buffalo News.
Hamid, an Egyptian-born medical doctor, psychologist and author of "The Roots of Jihad," travels throughout the world discussing Islam on college campuses, at churches and synagogues and in nonprofit organizations. Hamid was in Western New York in October for a series of private talks and will return for a presentation at 7 p.m. Wednesday in Love Joy Gospel Church, Lancaster.
The former member of Gama'a al-Islamiyya, which is identified as a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department, has plenty to say about Islam and terrorism - and some of it doesn't sit well with American Muslims.
Hamid worries that Westerners have become too politically correct, refusing to accept that current Islamic teaching - not poverty, not Israel and not the war in Iraq - is the root cause of Muslim terror.
"I believe Islam can be taught in a peaceful manner," he said. "But it's unfair to say the current dominant form of Islamic teaching, which is salafi Islam, taught in mosques and universities, is peaceful."
Quite the contrary, said Hamid, who traces the spread of this virulent form of Islam to the rise of Saudi Arabia as an economic and political powerhouse....
Among other teachings, salafi Islam calls for the killing of apostates, considers Jews subhuman, encourages the beating and enslavement of women and urges war to convert nonbelievers, said Hamid.
"These are fundamentals of Sharia law. This is what they teach in the mosques and the universities," he said.
Hamid was attending medical school in Cairo when he joined Gama'a al-Islamiyya, intent on becoming a more observant Muslim. "I was not thinking of doing evil to anyone, absolutely not," he said. Within a few months, though, he became a self-described "vicious monster, like a beast," due to the group's teachings on Islam....
Sunnis forbid sex outside of marriage, creating a sexual suppression in young Muslim males who haven't accumulated enough wealth to marry, said Hamid. At the same time, they believe beautiful virgins await in heaven for men who abide by Islamic tenets. Sunni men stuck in this situation would die for a cause "just to make sex in paradise," Hamid said. "It is embarrassing, but it is what I used to think."
As much as he thought of violent acts, though, Hamid couldn't bring himself to do them. He left Gama'a al-Islamiyya in search of a different understanding of Islam.
Hamid's preaching, however, soon got him run out of a mosque by a rock-throwing group of men who threatened his life, he said.
Hamid changed his name and fled Cairo in 1992. He moved to the West three years later but refuses to identify the country where he lives for fear that it would put him and his family at risk.
Even in the United States and Europe, Hamid believes moderate Muslims are in the minority.
Hamid accused Muslims in the West of feeding into the radicalization of Islam by not forcefully confronting fundamentalist Islamic teachings.
"Because of them, reformation is not happening," he said.
But Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Muslims here have condemned terrorism for years, even issuing a fatwa against it.
Ah yes, that handy fatwa. It says in part:
In the light of the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.
All right. This sounds great. But what is a "civilian"? This fatwa, after all, was written long after many Muslims, including some influential Islamic teachers, began saying that civilians in Israel, most notably, were not civilians in the way we understand the term, and could be lawfully targeted by mujahedin.
With that idea widespread in the Islamic world, it was wholly inadequate for the Fiqh Council of North America, which issued the fatwa, simply to condemn attacks on "civilians." For its fatwa to be genuinely effective against the spread of the jihad ideology among Muslims, it would have to address the question of what a civilian is, and why Israeli and American non-combatants should not be targeted.
Why would the Fiqh Council issue such a paltry and useless fatwa? Was it more interested in impressing non-Muslims than in turning Muslims away from jihad activity?
See also Steven Emerson's remarks about the terror ties of many of those who signed the fatwa.
But because of the general ignorance of what Islam teaches and what Islamic teachers are saying, Ibrahim Hooper is brought in by reporters everywhere to spread more disinformation fog, and is never, ever called on it.
Posted by Robert at November 16, 2006 6:11 AM
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I urge you to study up on the true teachings of Islam, and not let your opinion be affected by personal bias and un-Islamic cultural practices. The religion of Islam is pure in its beliefs and brilliant in its understanding of human nature. It offers the path to success in this world and the next.
Please feel free to contact me any time, with any question you have.
Please peruse Islamic site for more information about Islam and specifically check out the links below. Thank you and please stay in touch. Salaam
http://www.al-sunnah.com/understanding_islam.htm
Get The Holy Quran. It is absolutely FREE
Usful links
www.islamonline.net
http://www.muslimheritage.com/Default.aspx
http://www.studying-islam.org/index.aspx
Posted by: Ramon
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at November 16, 2006 7:25 AM
from a link posted aboveQuestion 4 "How does someone become a Muslim?"
The answer to this question should give any thoughtful person several clues as to what exactly is wrong with the cheery death cult we call islam.
No study, no thought, no real intellectual engagement necessary - just say this and you're in!
You might want to contrast this with the real effort required to convert to judaism, or even, for that matter, to catholicism.
Or contemplate the difficulty one might face in attempting to become a hindu. :)
Posted by: thomas ato at November 16, 2006 7:47 AM
from a link posted above 'Mohammedanism' is thus a misnomer because it suggests that Muslims worship Muhammad (SAW) rather than God.
Of course, of course, I see. That would be why Benedict 16 delivers a theological lecture in which he ridicules (really, he did) the islamic notion of divinity, and briefly quotes an obscure Byzantine Emperor's opinion of the non-prophesying prophet of islam, and the islamic 'world' gets upset about what? Mahomet, thats what.
Posted by: thomas ato at November 16, 2006 7:53 AM
Thanks for the political incorrectness update!
Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 16, 2006 8:01 AM
1)Saudi Arabia seems to be the fount of a lot of trouble with Islam. Its regime doesn't give fire and brimstone speeches like Iran but in many ways it is even more dangerous than Iran.
2)If Islam is indeed as peaceful as some claim then I still don't understand why the majority of Muslims don't purge the Bin Losers and their ilk already. If the Muslims refuse to do so then it is incumbent on the West to target these "misguided" ones for assassination.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 16, 2006 8:02 AM
Islam is a religion of peace...Despite everything the planet has been witness to in the last 5 years...
Moose
Posted by: Moose at November 16, 2006 8:09 AM
Jesus answered: "Watch out that NO ONE deceives YOU. For MANY will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
You will hear of WARS and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed.
Such things must happen, but the END is still to come.
Nation WILL RISE AGAINST nation, and kingdom AGAINST kingdom.
There will be famines and EARTHQUAKES in various places.
All these are the beginning of BIRTH PAINS.
Then you will be handed over to be PERSECUTED and put to DEATH, and you will be HATED by ALL NATIONS because of ME.
At that time MANY will turn away from THE FAITH and will BETRAY and HATE each other, and many FALSE PROPHETS will appear and DECEIVE many people.
Because of the increase of WICKEDNESS, the love of most will grow COLD, but he who stands FIRM to the END will be SAVED.
And this GOSPEL of the KINGDOM will be preached in the WHOLE world as a testimony to all nations, and then the END WILL COME.
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' DO NOT believe it.
For FALSE Christs and FALSE prophets WILL appear and perform great signs and miracles to DECEIVE even the elect—if that were possible.
See, I have told YOU ahead of time.
For as lightning that comes from the east is VISIBLE even in the west, so will be the coming of the SON OF MAN.
"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the SKY, and ALL the NATIONS of the earth will MOURN.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the CLOUDS of the SKY, with POWER and GREAT GLORY.
And he will send his ANGELS with a LOUD trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Even so, when YOU see all these things, YOU know that it is NEAR, right at the door.
I tell YOU the TRUTH, this generation will certainly NOT pass away until all these things HAVE happened.
Heaven and earth WILL pass away, but my WORDS will NEVER pass away.
NO one knows about that day or hour, NOT even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY the Father.
Therefore keep watch, because YOU do NOT know on what day your Lord will come.
So YOU also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when YOU do not expect him.
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
my prayer to GOD right now:
in the name of Jesus Christ, i pray Lord Father GOD, that your Holy Spirit would guide me now. please Lord be with everyone who reads your word. please Lord Jesus Christ, enter into their hearts and minds with your word, for it is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. i believe Lord, that your Word also judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart and nothing in all creation is hidden from your sight LORD GOD; that everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of YOU to whom we must give account. Lord Father God, i pray too Lord that you would please be with all those who read this and believe in Jesus Christ, and for those who do not know you Lord, that they would realise their need of your forgiveness Lord, which can only come through your blood and death on the cross my Lord Jesus Christ!
in the name of Jesus Christ i pray.
Amen
Posted by: DiscipleofJesusChrist
at November 16, 2006 8:12 AM
How about giving an example of Islam using logic to improve society? I can say "Scientology uses logic to improve society", but that assertion doesn't prove anything.
Also, this example you provide, please make it relevant to the 21st century and don't tell us about how Muhammed created the first caravan trail from Mecca to Medina or some irrelevant fact like that.
Posted by: venividivici at November 16, 2006 8:14 AM
Ramon,
There are no ‘true teachings of Islam’ and you are dead wrong in the untruths you speak of – come out of your darkness and enter the ONE TRUE LIGHT, Jesus Christ!
at November 16, 2006 8:16 AM
More egregious lies
Question 20 "Can a Muslim have more than one wife?"Question 21 "Is an Islamic marriage like a Christian marriage?"
They just keep on coming, dont they? No, its not like a christian marriage, because the woman doesnt even have to be present, but dont expect al-sunnah to tell you that 'inconvenient truth'. The islamic marriage is really just a contract of sale - the father, or other male relative, agreeing a price with the family of the 'husband'.
Posted by: thomas ato at November 16, 2006 8:17 AM
There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. There are indifferent Muslims, there are uneducated Muslims, there are Muslims who will misrepresent their agenda for political purposes, but there are no moderate Muslims.
They are called apostates. Read the book.
Posted by: limes at November 16, 2006 8:21 AM
Islam uses logic to improve society
Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 08:07 AM
..................................................
After Adam and Eve sinned, then sin entered the world!
Until God fully redeems us, human logic is flawed!
So heres a big thanks to our muslim friend Ramon, for illustrating to us so concisely that his own religion, islam, is fake! ...and we know that all lies come from the devil too don't we!!!
Posted by: Mohammed-Sux at November 16, 2006 8:22 AM
Ramon,
If Islam is so perfect, why couldn't it even get the question of "Who should succeed Muhammed?" correct? One would think that Allah, being so all-knowing, would have realized the Muslim Ummah would split over the succession issue and have told Muhammed unambiguously who was the right successor.
The gap between what Islam's adherents claim for it and its actual accomplishments is astounding. It's like if an ant colony claimed to build New York City.
Posted by: venividivici at November 16, 2006 8:24 AM
Islam uses logic to improve societyPosted by: thomas atoPosted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 08:07 AM
Examples?
And while you're at it, how about giving us an insight into what it was that the prophet mahomet prophesied?
at November 16, 2006 8:26 AM
Please would you ban him?Oh no, please, a more elucidating example of the doublethink mindset of your average mahometan would be hard to find, lets keep him. Posted by: thomas ato
at November 16, 2006 8:34 AM
Ramon you have not identified yourself, were you born a muslim, or where you one of the misquided ones who converted to this cult you call islam?
how do you ever think there is logic with islam? we in the WEst can read, and even if you did not read, look at islam's killings on each other, and non muslims. every country that has islam is a basket case, you call that logic, l call that a tragic waste of human lives. Ramon use your head for once, look around and see how islam brings on poverty, violence, didtaroships. When you chose to join the human race, you will see the light.
at November 16, 2006 8:35 AM
"Robert, you know I for one am sick of ramoaning (ramon) continually spouting his crap. Please would you ban him?"
Posted by: Grunt
---------
I'd like him banned too, but it would go against the freedom of speech, and we would only do the same thing as muslim countries do. However, he should be banned for trolling and posting outright lies :)
Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 16, 2006 8:38 AM
One of the beauties of Islam is that people are continually exhorted to search for the truth and ponder upon the many questions of existence in order to strengthen their faith.
Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 8:51 AM
"One of the beauties of Islam is that people are continually exhorted to search for the truth and ponder upon the many questions of existence in order to strengthen their faith."
Ramon,
Why is it that so many Muslims who "ponder upon the many questions of existence" reach the conclusion that non-muslims have no right to exist? I suggest that you are posting your thoughts on Islam at the wrong place. Instead of trying to convince us that Islam is peaceful and tolerant, your time might be better spent trying to convince muslims. Perhaps you should ponder the question of why so many muslims disagree with you.
Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 16, 2006 9:02 AM
people are continually exhorted to search for the truth
And the evidence to back that statement up is where exactly? The poster was fairly generous with links before, now not so generous.
This of course is what passes for debate/argumentation in the wonderful world of islam. Say something, anything, and the act of saying it makes it true - but only, of course, if you're a true believer. If you're kuff'r, everything you say or believe was invented by zionists.
Posted by: thomas ato at November 16, 2006 9:10 AM
Salafism, wahabbism-what's the difference? Rat poison is marketed under different brand names-all are equally deadly. It's the same with Islam.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 16, 2006 9:27 AM
lol that's a great metaphor: rat poison versus islam -- which one is deadlier?
lolol
Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 16, 2006 10:09 AM
Ramon you are a fool if you think any imman would let you explore, search, ask questions about islam. you know they kill muslims for asking too many questions.. Ramon where do you live and where you a convert or born to islam? these answers would make a differnce.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 16, 2006 10:33 AM
Islam doesn't allow pondering about it or old mo. It does allow pondering about which to kill or rape. Which rock to use for bathroom purposes or stoning. Which wife to beat first.
If islam allowed ponderers to ponder islam, there would be no ponderers left. They would realize the error of their cult.
Posted by: freewoman at November 16, 2006 10:33 AM
Get The Holy Quran. It is absolutely FREE-Ramon
And worth every penny.
Posted by: JadeDragoness at November 16, 2006 11:43 AM
RAMON SAID:
One of the beauties of Islam is that people are continually exhorted to search for the truth and ponder upon the many questions of existence in order to strengthen their faith."
YES they are CONININUALLY EXHORTED ---you mean they are scared shitless. Because as Muhammed the false prophet said "if a muslim leaves the faith kill him"
PLUS us lowly kafiir we are to be killed if we dont see the "beauty of Islam"
You are not a good person Ramon, not only do you know in your heart that Hadith/Quran preaches violence against us the unbelievers but you eagerly follow those teachings and then actively lie to us about the "beautfy of Islam".
What beauty is that exactly? Beating your wife? Or marrying a nine year old.
Repent and stop following your evil inclinations.
If human logic is flawed by original sin --its absolutely MASSACRED by islamic teaching.
at November 16, 2006 12:04 PM
If anyone wants to read more about exposing the polictically correct myths of Islam go here:
http://www.kafirnation.com/myth2.htm
It has articles if you scroll down exposing Islams lies from everything about pedophillia to the myth of Arab civilization in history (they got it from the Europeans before us Greeks and Romans and Persians the Arabs were desert wanderers. period.)
topics include (see leftside menu):
# Moon God Allah
# Disbelief is worse than murder
# Answering Infidels
# Translating the untranslatable
# Chrisitans arrested for praying
# Suicide and Martyrdom
and another excellent site:
at November 16, 2006 12:16 PM
Get The Holy Quran. It is absolutely FREE-Ramon
And worth every penny.
Posted by: JadeDragoness at November 16, 2006 11:43 AM
Incorrect. Even at that price it's overpriced. Sort of like buying used toilet paper.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 16, 2006 12:17 PM
DON'T WRITE TO RAMON!!!!!
Ramon -- sounds like a trap to me. Yeah, like I'm gonna go to your website and "write you". What, so you can find out where I live, then have your suicide-slaves come over to where I live and bomb me and my family. Thanks, but no thans.
Grunt -- We NEED Ramon's input to remind us of how twisted Islam is, and how far someone will go to lie about this religion/government. Ramon is SUPPOSE to lie to promote this dark, evil religion. Muhammad was a liar, so Ramon is only following his false prophets example.
Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 12:38 PM
I say ban Ramon's ass. He craps out these fortune-cookie statements about Islam and never responds to the response. I've been pleading with him for some edification regarding the chronic spooge stains on Mohammad's robe (was his "prophet" really a priapic pretender?) and nothing. Not a peep on the subject.
Because he is not part of a conversation.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 16, 2006 1:12 PM
Ramone said; "One of the beauties of Islam is that people are continually exhorted to search for the truth and ponder upon the many questions of existence in order to strengthen their faith."
So what you are saying is that once you are in Islam you still have to search for the truth and ponder on many unanswered questions?
I thought that Islam was the truth, and that it answers all questions. How does this strengthen faith when it is so confusing?
Read the words of Jesus Crist! His words are so solid and true. He makes the most sense to me after my 30 years of searching for the truth.
at November 16, 2006 1:24 PM
CHAMP I agree with you. We need his kind here to remind any kafiir coming here what ISLAM is about. When Ramon isnt trying to mislead by falsly quoting other religions he is basking in the "beauty of Islam" hahhah Anyone reading Roberts site quickly sees this "beauty" and then reads Ramons writing will say "oh my word I see it now"....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013525.php
at November 16, 2006 1:49 PM
Islam uses logic to improve society.
Posted by: Ramon.
Yes, the logic of amputation and decapitation, cutting and hacking at disease, to improve society.
This is logical, but not rational: for the puritanically obsessed impulse to cut and hack away at disease, you see, becomes a worse disease in society. And since Islam has a trans-national pandemic entelechy, its pathology is metastatic and becomes a danger to all non-Muslims.
And, sooner or later, we Infidels will have to do some serious excisions of our own to rid ourselves as much as possible of the allopathy of Allah. Probably later rather than sooner -- since, alas, we have our own endopathy afflicting us: PC multiculturalism, which may require a little surgery if conservative measures don't work in time to remove the obstructions it presents in the way of our ability to deal adequately with the Pan-Islamic Pandemic.
Posted by: remote_control at November 16, 2006 3:06 PM
Cair's constant use of the word 'civilian' when it is harem to kill is military spiel, and confirms that Islam is certainly at war with Humanity, otherwise they would simply say 'we condemn the killing of anybody in the name of Islam'
The huddled masses may be fooled, but its left up to Spencer and like-minded informed persons to try to spread the truth concerning this mad, insane ideology of assimilation or death.
Dhimmi
Posted by: dhimmiwit at November 16, 2006 3:42 PM
zonie kafir LOL you are a good translator. Id like to see a 'everyday english' translation of the Quran by zoniekafir. Though I'll skip over the parts that talk about that Muhohound monster doing it with a little kid. sick scumbag.
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 5:26 PM
Say Ramon, YOU STILL haven't answered my question regarding the "illegal Israeli occupation of "Palestine." You keep saying it happened, but you don't explain any part of it. It's like claiming that maggots spontaneously generate on rotting flesh, without understanding in any way how you came to that conclusion.
Lots of folks have refuted the simple claims you have made here, using facts and real arguments, yet you cannot reply back with anything intelligent, apart from simply declaring people are liars, or by trying to switch the argument to something else.
A case in point was when I said that "Palestine" is a term derived by the ancient HEBREW term "Plilstim" (meaning INVADER), and that the people they gave this term to were probably Greek or Minoan, NOT ARAB. At that you came back with some false notion that there is not such thing as a Jewish Israeli, because they are all of Turkish origins. In a way, your doing this said to me "So what? YOU ARE WRONG TOO!"--which is an irrational response.
Apparently it does not matter that your whole argument regarding "the Palestinian people" is based upon a false premise, and it only serves your ultimate purpose to present Israeli Jews as the most evil creatures on the face of the Earth (typical Islamic propaganda).
Ramon, you claim that Islam uses logic and is somehow logical, but your silly claims and outbursts of hate propaganda show that you are a poor representative of anything logical and rational. Indeed you are a perfect example of a submitter to the evil cult of Islam.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 16, 2006 6:55 PM
Here's what Ramon said:
"Islam uses logic to improve society"
Well, my logical reply would be to ask our friend Ramon this:
Ramon, give us ONE example of logic and brilliance that is unique to Islam. That is, give us something that we can all agree upon that is undoubtedly logical and brilliant, AND that did not exist prior to Muhammad.
Also, give us an example of how this brilliant and uniquely Islamic logic has helped ANY society anywhere in the world.
That shouldn't be too difficult.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 16, 2006 7:34 PM
"Here we go again. That illogical logic!
Give it up Ramon."
The thing about it is, I do not think that Ramon even understands what "logic" is. I think he believes that it's any thought that his simple mind can process that he agrees is true, based upon the brainwashing that he's been put through.
I mean, when confronted with the obvious and CURRENT horrendous violence called for by Islamic mullahs and committed by Islamic terrorists, he responds with verses from the Bible that depict violence and horror. His "logical" reply to the horror that IS on display from his Islamic bretheren is to say "SEE WHAT YOUR BIBLE SAYS THAT JEWS AND CHRISTIANS DID," while totally ignoring the CURRENT Islamic terrorist problem.
Logic teaches that you can draw conclusions between what people are taught, and what people DO as a result of these teaching. They are taught to strike the necks of unbelievers wherever you find them, and thus it can be concluded that the result of this teaching is a multitude of people who are all to willing to kill "in the name of god." There are all too many examples of teaching from Imams and Mullahs that implore upon their subjects to behead infidels and Jews "in the name of Allah."
But there is no logical response to this teaching, as it is implied that it's divinely inspired, and that whatever Allah says is true (whether it's really true or not). There is no logic involved in the Islamic thought-process. All you have to know is that the Koran is true (because the book itself says so), and that's that. That's the only "logic" that matters to Ramon.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 16, 2006 7:49 PM
Let Ramon stay, he is very entertaining and his islamic "logic" is good for a few chuckles, occasionally a belly laugh. I love his tenacity; he just ignores the refutations of his taqiyya and dissimulation and acts like we're ripe for the picking. Islam is devoid of many human qualities like love and compassion, but logic tops the list of omissions from islam.
Posted by: Susanp at November 16, 2006 9:36 PM
.....in other words he's braindead.
Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 10:05 PM
To say there is any logic in Islam is totally illogical.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 16, 2006 10:34 PM
My use of "logic" in my response to Ramon above depends on the #4 definition in the American Heritage dictionary:
The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events.
Islam does have this kind of logic, motivated by a desire to reform or "purify" society. The logic is not non-existent; it is there -- and its content & structure is precisely the problem.
at November 17, 2006 4:20 AM
I am an English Convert Muslim.
This site amazes me.
Don't you think you may be a teeny bit misinformed?
Doesn't all this not quite add up to you?
More emotion and opinion than knowledge and reason?
I am a thinking person educated and raised in the West without muslim influence; I thought my way to Islam with logic and an open mind.
The matters you discuss and rage over here are all answered for me and millions of others; if you want to understand go to source, if not, stay here and shore up the propaganda with self-righteous indignation.
at November 17, 2006 7:19 AM
Maryam, I would suggest you look up some of Hugh's posts about which Westerners are susceptible to Islamic propaganda to the extent that they end up converts. I would bet you fall into one of his categories. That doesn't mean your conversion isn't meaningful, but it does mean that your conversion is a result of Western or personal failures of your own, not anything about Islam's alleged greatness or its ability to "answer questions".
Also, if you want to go to the source of "logic", go to the Greeks, not Islam. Socrates would have had a field day with Mohammed. Why do you think the Muslims prohibited contact with Greek thinkers after they discovered what exactly was in those Greek manuscripts, which the Muslims are so fond of reminding the West they saved?
Posted by: venividivici at November 17, 2006 7:55 AM
Ramon was right not to be drawn into a charged debate with those defending their position rather than seeking understanding.
If you want to understand, look with an open mind.
The media tells you "Evil cult of death" the muslims tell you "Piety truth love and peace" How can there be such a discrepancy? Do you think yourselves the sole owners of the perception of good and evil?
As for venividivici your suppositions are unfounded.
The foundation of my belief is that God exists.
The foundation of your belief is that the news you watch and books you read are true.
You are the victim of deliberate and purposeful Western propaganda from many sources over a long period of time; I simply read the Qur'an and recognised it was the Words of God.
Incidentally, it is the muslims who are "hated by all nations, persecuted and put to death" isn't it? Doesn't that make them the people Jesus (upon him be peace) was talking about?
at November 17, 2006 11:52 AM
With reference to the start of the thread "..unfair...peaceful"; salafis make up about 3% of the muslim world. That can hardly be called dominant. As I understand it, Salafis follow the Qur'an and the stories of the life of the Prophet(peace be upon him)directly, interpreting by themselves, whereas the rest of us do so the way it has always been done; with reference to the pious and learned of past and present.
I am not salafi but those I have met have been kindly, scrupulous and devout people. Islam is a path, not a destination, who knows but Allah who is further along it or what is in our hearts?
When I go to the mosque we are taught to pronounce the Qur'an correctly. This involves a bit of Arabic grammar. We learn short prayers off by heart and are encouraged to follow some aspect of Islam more closely. This may be revising how to receive a guest correctly, reminding us to obey our parents, remembering the rights of our neighbours, or going over the method of ablution. This is the Islam taught in all mosques. In universities the sylabus for Islamic studies is State approved and checked, and meetings there are attended by too diverse a company for any secrets to be kept.
ZK: No, I am not going to spoonfeed your closed mouth.
at November 17, 2006 4:43 PM
The only thing that really stands out is the appalling ability of moslems to have their head so far in the sand they can see China.
The evidence that is glaring out daily in murders, suicide bombings, etc should be enough but in the self-delusional islamic world and mentality this is all explained away by 'small minority' excuse.
What is even more dismaying is the capacity of those in the west to swallow this lying delusion. I think the fellow above still entertains the idea that islam can be taught peacefully which history has demonstrated is not the case. Islam has been violent for the entire 1500 years of its miserable existence, exceeded only by the horry they visit on the cultures they overrun like the cockroaches they are.
Islam peaceful? The only time it is peaceful is when it has had its behind handed to them on a platter, and kicked all the way back to their home countries. To the shores of Tripoli was not just a slogan in a song. We had to kick muslim butt twice, because the ruler there engaged in another muslim deception: hudna.
Anyway, I want nothing to do with a gutter religion.
two cents ¢¢
Posted by: two cents ¢¢ at November 17, 2006 5:15 PM
Maryam sez:
"Incidentally, it is the muslims who are "hated by all nations, persecuted and put to death" isn't it? Doesn't that make them the people Jesus (upon him be peace) was talking about?"
Really? By whom? Where is this universal persecution happening by non-Muslims to Muslims? In the United States, there is NO persecution to Muslims, and in Michigan (where I live) this state pretty much allows Muslims to do whatever they want with impunity. France is burning due to Islamic upheaval, and they do not know what to do about it. All of Europe is bending over backwards, frontwards, and sideways to accomodate Islamic people.
You Muslims want it both ways. You want to enter non-Muslim countries for their economic freedom, but you want to be able to continue living under your sharia law and attack your adopted countries because of their way of life.
Islam persecutes. Islam destroys the soul and the body. Islam destroys culture and intelligent learning. Islam says truth is a lie, and a lie is the truth. Islam says it is true, and to hell with anyone who questions it. Not one gram of intelligent inquiry is allowed.
at November 17, 2006 6:12 PM
"Don't you think you may be a teeny bit misinformed?"
Okay, in what way? Tell us where we are misinformed.
at November 17, 2006 6:14 PM
Islam is the way of life sent to man from Allah. It is a perfect society because Allah Knows the best way for us to live. I want to live in a country entirely governed by sharia law and never encounter the oppression of capitalism again. If you knew about it you would want it too, and your governments know it. That is why they have loaded you down with misinformation designed to prevent your unbiassed evaluation of a system so pure and harmonious and spiritually fulfilling that you would forsake your cultures for it.
Islam is liberating. Islam nourishes the soul and honours the body. Islam is the height of all culture and learning. It encourages enquiry and civilised debate but not slanging matches or argument for argument's sake.
You may question how authentic the sources of Islam are but you may not challenge the wisdom of it because that is like saying you are smarter than Allah. Just because you can't get your head round five prayers, or no insurance or whatever, doesn't mean Allah didn't count on coming across a brain like yours!
America may not be persecuting its own muslims yet (maybe it has corrupted their practice so much that it doesn't need to) but it is persecuting and murdering everyone else's. Concentration camps, unjust invasions, slaughtering millions, undermining virtually every country in the world, and, like Britain, using the nebulous myth of "terrorism" to justify seizing new powers, passing new laws, spending billions, stealing whole countries and anything else they want to do.
Yet you choose to see what they tell you. Why don't you THINK? Their propaganda is everywhere but their story is so WEAK I'm surprised you can even repeat it. Do you REALLY believe that muslims plan to bring the West to its knees with an unspecified ideology and a few small explosions?
at November 17, 2006 9:28 PM
I'm not here to do your research for you, but encourage you to understand there are answers.
If I were to refute every objection raised, you would still raise more.
That is because it is not the information you lack: it's an open mind.
You have been educated on HOW to think, and are told WHAT to think, BY THE SAME PEOPLE. Step outside all that and go to source. Find out about Palestine by speaking to Palestinians living there. Speak to the soldiers there too, witness the situation, and compare accounts.
If you want to find out about Islam speak to devout and learned muslims. If you want to find out about Guantanamo Bay speak to the people who were prisoners. If you want to know who really blew up the towers seek out the non-government version of events on websites and dvds and assess the two stories yourself.
It isn't easy but it's the only way to acquire a balanced view. Until then you are just repeating other people's words.
at November 18, 2006 8:19 AM
Who are the Hardly Boys and why does their version carry so much weight with you?
Posted by: maryam at November 18, 2006 9:42 AM
That is an example of media influence. Consider the effect it has had on your thoughts.
That's what I'm trying to point out. Just because everybody says so doesn't make it true. It ISN'T "End of story" or "case closed" until all the discrepancies are accounted for. Why did a steel framed building crumple into matchwood when it was designed to withstand wind forces greater than the force of the plane impact? You saw it, it was demolished. And how has this act been attributed to Islam when Islam forbids it? But evidence carries no weight if your mind is closed.
So my giving you the answer- that your government did it to enforce and perpetuate this fantasy that there are terrorists- will make no difference to you.
I can make accurate predictions without being a prophet.
at November 18, 2006 11:12 AM
Maryam,
Your whole "open mind" rhetoric doesn't prove any connection between having an "open mind" and ending up a Muslim. Are you trying to claim that every open-minded person must end up a Muslim? How are you measuring open-mindedness to begin with? What if two people with the same open-mindedness "score" ended up disagreeing about the merits of Islam? What if someone with a higher open-mindedness "score" rejects Islam, while someone with a lower "score" accepts it?
I don't get any sense from your posts that you understand the distinction between what a religion claims and what is real. Since the Koran claims to be the word of God, you think it is the word of God. The fact that you arbitrarily ended up believing that the Koran's claim is greater than any other claim is a result of your own psychological state, not anything objectively true. You obviously need to "submit" to something to obtain "peace". Not everyone does, and those who don't are not necessarily "close-minded". In fact, they may be at a higher level of open-mindedness than you were able to obtain before your conversion to Islam. From a Hegelian standpoint, Islam is, at best, a stopping point along the road of the dialectic and hardly the destination. Again, since you don't provide an objective measurement system to judge the answer to this question, you need to rely on rhetoric to "prove" your case for Islam. It's all actually very tedious to argue against and the fact that I even have to point this out makes me despair of the sort of education you recieved pre-conversion to Islam.
Maybe before you go making claims about what is and isn't an "answer" to the questions humans have surrounding the existence and the essence of God, you should think a bit more about whether you even understand the questions. It's perfectly OK not to understand them, but humility would deem that if you don't, just keep your mouth shut and your ears open while those wiser than you instruct you. That's what I did for a long time and I'm much better off for it, and still not persuaded that Islam has anything to offer me.
Posted by: venividivici at November 18, 2006 11:21 AM
Maryam,
So, because you don't understand the physics of the WTC collapse, that proves that the building was demolished? Because you say Islam forbids it, it couldn't have been done by Muslims? That's quite a logical leap! I would venture to say that most catastrophic events have elements of their progression that are difficult to explain, the WTC collapse included. To make the jump from not being able to explain an event "in toto" to proposing a completely alternative explanation which has even less evidence than the first explanation makes no logical sense. Look up Occam's Razor to get the gist of this point.
The facts of 9/11 stand in favor of the hypothesis that it was perpetrated by Muslims. Even the conspiracy theory that it was perpetrated by the US government helps Muslims advance a "divide and conquer" strategy against the West, meaning that one cannot take the conspiracy theory as being the result of disinterested enquiry into the events of 9/11. Rhetorically, it costs Muslims nothing to advance this conspiracy theory, while the upside of advancing the theory is large, especially since gullible Westerners then become more mistrustful of our institutions, meaning less unity in fighting the real enemy.
In legal cases, this is called "the preponderance of evidence".
For the love of God, please learn how to make a case in favor of your perspective! If you are representative of Muslim "thinkers" in general, no wonder all Islamic countries are places I wouldn't want my worst enemy to live in.
Posted by: venividivici at November 18, 2006 1:20 PM
ZK; You are not my worst nightmare, I thank Allah that He has allowed our discussion.
As for my opinion on I have never heard of the events you indicate. I gather you dispute the morality of some actions in the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
You are right to question it though. This is exactly the sort of huge discrepancy that needs resolution. On the one hand the religion of 1/4 of the world believes in the exemplary behaviour of Muhammed (peace be upon him) and on the other there are allegations of atrocities.
As you have already grasped the atrocity concept, it is time to seek out encompass the opposite point of view.
At this point you read one of the thousands of books extolling the virtues of the Prophet (peace be upon him). You could speak to a devout, learned sheikh living in, and recommended by, his community, or perhaps post a question on a reputable Islamic site (not forum). Then you evaluate both views without prejudice, and draw a balanced conclusion.
Fairly evaluating the other side's opinion wherever you see discrepancies won't necessarily lead you to the same ideas as me. But it will make you an open-minded human being.
at November 18, 2006 1:55 PM
Maryam,
1. In the West, people who have acted as Mohammed acted have been condemned since the West first gained consciousness of itself as an entity and began to philosophize about The Good.
2. Condemning such actions as are attributed to Mohammed has made the West better off, with no institutionalized beheadings or child-brides, to name two particularly egregious examples.
3. As a result, it is entirely logical for a Westerner to consider Mohammed an exemplar of everything we stand against. The fact that Mohammed claimed to be acting in God's interests is irrelevant against the facts of his actions. Many sociopaths claim to be acting in God's interests and there is no proof that Mohammed was anything but another member of that group, as probably any Western psychiatrist could tell you.
Since Mohammed is the exemplar of good behavior in Islam, I, and any other Westerner, don't need any more information about Islam to make a decision about it. I can't understand how you can't see that.
at November 18, 2006 2:47 PM
Say maryam, there is a "version" (if you will) of "Islam" that is firmly entrenched inside your mind, and then there is another one that we can see with our eyes, and hear with our ears. I have SEEN and HEARD from Islamic state-run Iranian, Jordanian, Egyptian, "Palestinian" Authority, Hezbollah, and Saudi television of the hate, the lies, the calls for "Jihad" to bring all of the World to their knees. I have seen the vile, disgusting images printed in their publications about how Jews are even worse than the Nazis during World War 2. I have seen the videos of meetings in England (spoken in English) of jihadists who celebrate murder and death to "kafirs."
You want for us to ignore what is obvious to anyone who has eyes to see, ears to hear, and a mind to think, and simply bow before your "Allah," a supposed deity who provides murderous "martyrs" with eternal sex in paradise? You want for us to embrace this supposed deity who chose for his "prophet" a pedophile murderer?
Maryam, your mind is closed and your reasoning abilities have shut down. I do not know what happened to you earlier in your life to cause you to turn you from truth and reason to a system that is the embodiment of ignorance and hate. It must have been something pretty terrible for you to rebel that badly.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 18, 2006 3:01 PM
Another thing, maryam, is that the overwhelming evidence shows that wherever Islam has taken hold, all advances in science, culture, and education stagnate. Islamists like to come here and say that Islam is "brilliant," and "logical," yet, when they are presented with the clear facts in regard to the backward nature of societies that are ruled by Islamic laws and practices, they are silent.
"Allah" is not behind one iota of the technology that you have to even communicate here. Western civilization is what has advanced science, culture, and learning. Christians and Jews have ventured to discover new and wonderful advances that have given us cures for diseases, new species to study, and new forms of expression in arts and music.
Islam is barren. Islam takes from the "kafir" and claims it for its own. Islam subjects, denegrates, and retards all hope for advancing education. Look with your eyes and hear with your ears. See and hear what is happening in your utopian Islamic nations, and tell us that Islam is anything but a blight upon humanity.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 18, 2006 3:37 PM
What is so scary to you lot about seeing another point of view?
Don't you dare even look? All those things you are saying about Islam are the product of absurd anti-Islamic hate propaganda by the media, and not the product of your own unbiased research.
I'm not even saying "convert to Islam" - I know you couldn't if you tried; just gain a balanced view!
at November 18, 2006 6:29 PM
"All those things you are saying about Islam are the product of absurd anti-Islamic hate propaganda by the media, and not the product of your own unbiased research."
Oh, so you know this to be true? How? How can you tell me that what I know has come solely from "unbiased reasearch?" Because...Islam is true...that Allah is God...that the Koran is this God's true word?
How "unbiased" is your conclusion that Islam is the true way for mankind? Explain how you came to your conclusions in regard to Islam. Explain how it has shown you that it is true, beyond its mere claim to be so. What have you seen in the world around you, and in how people interact societally that has shown you beyond a doubt that Islam is God's way for mankind? What beyond your personal reading of Islamic literature has shown you that it is the way?
Have you seen the filth that I have said is coming everyday through the airwaves of Iranian, "Palestinian," Egyptian, and Hezbollah television? I'm not talking about "anti-Islamic hate propaganda," I am talking abou PRO-Islamic hate propaganda. I am talking about programs where little children shout jihadist poems, about how they wish to become "marytrs" in the name of "Allah," in order to destroy the decendents of "apes and pigs."
I know all that I care to know about the "point of view" of the common Islamist submitter. They are typically illiterate robots, living under the thumb of their imams. Their historical legacy is tyranny and ignorance.
Dispute it, if you can. Dispute the records of your own scholars and Islam's own recorded history, of their tyranny and persecution towards "kafir" and "dhimmies" who suffered under Sharia law. Dispute the fact that the people who have lived for centuries under Sharia law and Islamic rule had become stagnated and ignorant of the advances in Western civilization. Dispute my claim that Islam is barren of intelligent discourse, and scientific inquiry, and cultural enrichment.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 18, 2006 7:19 PM
I accepted the Qur'an was really the words of Allah after I read it and read a little about it. Do you dare to read it?
When I read the Qur'an, it took four chapters to recognise it was the words of my Creator. The magnificent authority of the words, their awesome power, the truth in it. It has many descriptions of natural phenomenae that could not have been known at that time but the one that impressed me most was a verse that read; "The darkness of the unbeliever is like the darkness of the deep sea, above which are waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds" I looked it up and found that in the deepest oceans there are waves under the sea between different densities of water. We only discovered this when the first satellites went up. A truth no-one could even guess in a book 1600 years old.
What you see and hear on television is not Islam.
To find the truth -Go to the source! Get the free literature. Read the Qur'an. Speak to the learned muslim scholars. Above all THINK. The terrorist story is WEAK and the only ones profiting from it are the superpowers.
at November 18, 2006 8:06 PM
Here's another good example of how tolerant these folks are to other faiths.
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=3311
at November 19, 2006 7:58 PM
By unbiased research I mean seeking out a genuine understanding of both sides before drawing a conclusion. If you're going to read a book by someone who condemns the topic, also read a book by someone who loves and believes in the topic.
I have a theory about terrorism. It fits the facts and may or may not be true.
But what IS true is that "terrorism" has nothing- NOTHING to do with Islam.
Islam strictly forbids suicide.
There are strict laws of combat that are honourable and restrained, all of which are totally incompatible with any form of "terrorism".
So; "If any man or woman engages in a belief or action which clearly contradicts the Qur'an or Sunnah, then that belief or action cannot be thought of as `Islamic'."
Islam tells us to do GOOD things. It is about prayer, cleanliness, modesty, charity, duty to family, visiting the sick, self-discipline, spiritual growth, hospitality, respect for elders, tollerance, good deeds, kindness to strangers, good manners, social responsibility, acquisition of knowledge, giving food to neighbours, patience in hardship, and remembering Allah in all we do. That is why people love it and convert; because it is GOOD, and liberating, and makes life make sense. Nobody would convert to it if it was morally wrong or made life worse.
So stop hating and start thinking. There is no connection whatsoever between Islam and "terrorism".
at November 19, 2006 8:10 PM
Myriam
In case you're a female.
Have you ever thought about the womens role in Islam?
Why is it a "TABU" to talk about sexual issues, even one of muhammds favorite themes, and do you support this stance really?
I believe every woman in islam which is not brainwashed completely yet can get out of this oppressions.
For me it was a shocking experience, one, I'd never consider a prophets quality.
Have a look and then let us know how "Good" or "Bad" that is and get out from the deceiptions of islam.
Posted by: Arnie at November 20, 2006 8:13 AM
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