I guess we have to be a little fair-prior to 9/11 who really gave a damn about Islam in Washington?
However, since then the government should have been boning up on the subject-plenty has been written about it. It's high time that Islamology becomes as well studied as Kremlinology was in the Cold War. There are certainly plenty of good teachers out there-if Washington can't find them let them come to this site.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 16, 2006 8:27 AM

Only David Forte
War Against Islam haas the Presidents ear on atters of faith

Over the past few weeks, I have argued that Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies represent a perversion of Islam and are engaged in a campaign to change Islam itself — to define the faith politically, and not primarily legally or theologically. The evidence, I believe, is unequivocal: His war is as much against Islam as it is against the West. I have written that Islam is a multivocal religion, that from its start it has debated within itself the nature of its identity. And I have noted that among all its varied traditions, one thing remains clear: The acts of the terrorists of September 11, and the justification of them by Osama bin Laden, replicate in modern guise a violent faction, the Kharajites, that Islam found totally anathema to the faith early in its history.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-forte101901.shtml

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at November 16, 2006 8:28 AM

No, I don't know the etymology of the word assassin, but now im interested, can someone please explain?

Posted by: MCMXCAD at November 16, 2006 8:33 AM

Kaosktal says " Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies represent a perversion of Islam and are engaged in a campaign to change Islam itself"

Kaosktal you are dead wrong on this, infact Osama and his ilk can use every verse from the Koran and Hadtihs for their monstrous evil actions. if anything is perverse it is islam itself. there is nothing moderate about islam, and right now if you are not ready to accept that, fine l dont care. what we need to do is arm the WEst with the knowledge about the death cult of islam. people born muslims must awaken themselves and see the light, people like Robert can only give you the information. you have to use your head, brain logic and take his information come to the conclusion that islam has no
right to exist.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 16, 2006 8:44 AM

"The acts of the terrorists of September 11, and the justification of them by Osama bin Laden, replicate in modern guise a violent faction, the Kharajites, that Islam found totally anathema to the faith early in its history".

If this indeed is the case then I wish the rest of the Islamic world would eliminate this scourge once and for all. These crazies are making them all look bad and now they're poised to use nukes.
What ARE the majority of Muslims waiting for?

That's assuming this theory about the Kharajites holds true.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 16, 2006 8:44 AM

Apostates and moderates pervert islam. Terrorists practice it.

Posted by: savitch at November 16, 2006 9:07 AM

Zena , those were quotes from the person who is telling Bush all about Islam , Not my thoughts everyone should know my thoughts by now I only have about 2 and ive repeated them thousands of times.

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at November 16, 2006 9:07 AM

Evil, Genocide and Wars
Spread by Judaism and Christianity

Numbers 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the HEADS of the people, and HANG them up before the LORD AGAINST THE SUN, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

Ezek. 9:5 And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.

THE BIBLE MISREPRESENTS GOD'S MERCY
[Jer. 19:7] The Lord said, "T WILL MAKE THEM EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbour.

[Levi.26:14] If you will not hearken to me..21 I will bring a sword upon you.. 29 YOU SHALL EAT THE FLESH OF YOUR SONS, AND DAUGHTERS.

[Lam. 2:20] LOOK O LORD, AND SEE! WITH WHOM YOU HAVE DONE THAT: SHOULD WOMEN EAT THEIR FRUIT AND CHILDREN OF A SPAN LONG?

[Lam. 4:4] The hands of compassionate women have boiled their own childrenthey became their food.

SWORD AND FIRE IN NEW TESTAMENT
[Math. 10:34] "Do not think that I have come to make peace on earth? I HAVE NOT COME TO BRING PEACE, BUT A SWORD. "For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother." [said Jesus]!

[Luke. 12:49] 'I CAME TO CAST FIRE UPON THE EARTH, AND WOULD THAT IT WERE ALREADY KINDLED.. DO YOU THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO GIVE PEACE ON EARTH? NO, I TELL YOU, BUT RATHER DIVISION; for from henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father, mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother. [said Jesus]!

[Luke. 19:27] For these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, BRING THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM BEFORE ME.

Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 9:10 AM

"Patrick O'Hannigan is right: there is as far as I know no program in the DHS, or State, or the Defense Department, or the CIA or FBI that is devoted to learning what the teachings of Islam and Muhammad reveal about the motives, goals, and strategies of contemporary jihad terrorists..."

Part of the reason for this is the concept of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism does not take into account that cultures survive by being closed to other cultures. If a culture is too "open" it will dissolve. Every culture must at some level postulate its superiority over other cultures. The concept of multiculturalism ignores this reality and asserts that cultures are basically all the same and that any judgement (thought) about the good and bad aspects of a culture are bigotry.

To understand Islamic culture it is necessary to understand that it is a closed supremacist belief-system that has to be studied objectively and subjected to critical analysis and judgement based on reason. To really understand this culture a person has to grasp the supremacist nature of its belief-system. Muslims treat their belief-system as absolute-truth (Western thought is more skeptical-scientific)that is not to be critically analysed. Muslims have to get over the resistance to critical analysis of the belief-system in order to face reality and non-believers (especially in the West) have to abandon the dogmas of multiculturalism to see reality.

I really think the crap that comes from people like Karen Armstrong, Esposito, etc. is formed in a multi-cultural mode. Hence they are frightened by any real critical analysis of the belief-system. In their own way, they are preaching an cultural supremacism based on the multicultural belief system. Critical analysis is necessary.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 9:11 AM

Ramon again you do not note the difference between the Bible and koran. the Bible particularly the "Old Testamnet" is more like a history book" the teachings of both Old and New do not tell Jews and Christians to go out and kill all non Jews and Christians. They are specific events with specific battles. Where as Mohummud over and over again tell his followers to kill all non muslims until the
end of times. Ramon cannot you see the difference? you are comparing apples and oranges.
Another huge difference with Jesus, he does separate
the State from Church, where as the ideology of islam completely controls all thought, and that means you what you have is a thought controlled cult, another form of facisim.
Again look at the results of countries with Judea/Christian principles as apposed to countries with Islam/sharai law. Where do most people chose or want to live, the West with its freedoms or the repressive countries that have islam as their religoin/ cult.
Look at the West with its freedoms, where women and men enjoy equality. You have much more advanced civilizations when you have cherished freedoms. So take your islam where the sun dont shine. we in the WEST chose the death cult you call islam.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 16, 2006 9:36 AM

KAOSKTRL l appologize, l read sometimes too fast, and in a hurry while l am working. now going back to work.. take care.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 16, 2006 9:37 AM

A lesson from the life of Muhammad

God sent Muhammad, the Final Prophet (peace be upon him) as a *{… mercy for all the worlds}* (Al-Anbiyaa' 21:107). Thus, the methods that he followed in order to spread this divine message to humanity could be summarized into the following:

Giving an example from himself (peace be upon him).

Educating his companions to be role models for humanity.

Teaching the concept of da`wah or call for Islam.

Regarding the first method, the Prophet (peace be upon him) spread the message of Islam through showing humanity an example of an excellent human being. He was an ideal teacher, friend, husband, father, grandfather, worrier, speaker, neighbour, employer, etc.

In all the roles that he played in his life, he gave humanity examples in every aspect and in every sense. And this is the main means through which the message of Islam was spread amongst his people. It has been mentioned in Mubarakpuri's biography of the Prophet Muhammad, Ar-Rahiq Al-Makhtum, that when Ja`far ibn Abi Talib was asked by Al-Najashi, the King of Ethiopia at the time, about the message of Muhammad, Ja`far said:

"He (Muhammad) is a man who is asking us to be honest, chaste, and good to our relatives."

When `A'ishah, the Prophet’s wife, was asked about his manners, she said:

"His manners were the Qur'an." "He was a Qur'an walking on earth" (Ahmad).

On the other hand, Allah Almighty described His messenger (peace be upon him) by saying what means:

*{Indeed, you have a sublime character.}* (Al-Qalam 68:4)

He (peace be upon him) told his companions that a good character is the best way to win people’s hearts. He said:

"You will never make people pleased with your money, but you will win their hearts with a smiling face and good manners (bast al-wajh wa husn al-khuluq)" (Ibn Al-Hakam.)

The second factor in the spread of Islam was the way the companions were educated by their teacher: Muhammad (peace be upon him). This was in order to be role models themselves. Islam was spread in various parts of the world through the companions' excellent conduct, demonstrated during their travels after the Prophet (peace be upon him) passed away.

The Islamic state should never force people to become Muslim by any means, as some might think. If this ever took place in history, then it was obviously a grave mistake that had been made by a few ignorant rulers who did not follow the ethical code of the prophetic errand in this life.

The way Islam spread in the vast areas in Asia and Africa was basically through the excellent example that the companions and their students and followers (at-tabe`een) gave to people. The areas of the largest Islamic populations today in East Asia had never seen any military conflict with any Islamic state. Indonesia is a clear example. The way Islam spread and, later, became the religion of the overwhelming majority of that country was through akhlaq (good manners and ethical morality).

The third method through which the Prophet (peace be upon him) spread the message of Islam was by teaching the concept of da`wah (call for Islam). The Prophet Muhammad taught his companions, and all Muslims, that a caller for a good deed is rewarded a reward equal to the reward of those who follow him in his or her call (Al-Bukhari). He also advised his people by saying:

"Convey the message after me, even one verse." (Al-Bukhari)

Allah describes the Prophet’s way by saying what means:

*{Say [O Prophet]: "This is my way: Resting upon conscious insight accessible to reason, I am calling [you all] unto God - I and they who follow me." And [say:] "Limitless is God in His glory; and I am not one of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him!"}* (Yusuf 12:108)

Basically, these are the three methods, through which the Prophet of Islam spread the message of Islam.

Moreover, regarding the part of your question where you mentioned that Muhammad (peace be upon him) had "translated the message and wrote it in the Qur'an," I would like to note that there is a bit of inaccuracy in this expression. Muhammad (peace be upon him) received the message of the Qur'an as we know it today, in the same (Arabic) language.

Some people suggested that he "wrote the Qur'an" himself, based on some "coded message" that he received from the angel Gabriel. However, many sayings of the Prophet and verses of the Qur'an clearly state that he (peace be upon him) received the verses as they are, that is, in the same Arabic script that we know today. In fact, Prophet Muhammad never learned how to read letters and write script. This is a well-known historic fact, God said — for a few examples — what means:

*{Behold, We have bestowed it from on high as a discourse in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.}* (Yusuf 12:2)

*{And thus have We bestowed from on high this [divine writ] as a discourse in the Arabic tongue…}* (Ta-Ha 20:113)

*{A divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the Arabic tongue…}* (Fussilat 41:3)

These, among others, are verses that confirm that the Qur'an was 'revealed' in Arabic language to the Last of messengers and prophets.

Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 9:39 AM

ZenaWarriorPrincess-

Also the Bible is not considered direct dictation from God (word for word) and there is a great variation in the interpretation of non-Muslim scriptures. The Koran is supposedly direct dictation from God. So when God says to kill the unbeliever that's a direct order from God.

This is the root of the problem for "moderate" Muslims with the Jihadists. The Jihadists can point to a passage in the Koran and say: what don't you understand about a direct order from God?

The later passages of the Koran mandate violence against unbelievers and abrogate earlier so-called peaceful passages just as the passage re the goodness of wine was abrogated by a latter passage that bans it. The mandate to violence and deception re unbelievers is true Islam as per the Jihadists and the "moderates" know it.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 10:00 AM

If God says Jews are "pigs and apes" it's hard to say God did not mean that. That's true Islam.

The belief-system is a mental illness where beliefs are treated as objective fact and unbelievers, apostates, and skeptics are considered inferior for not believing the belief-system and for not treating the belief-system as if it were a proved scientific fact. (However, no sane person believes that Jews are a debased people that are equal to "apes and pigs", e.g.).

People have every right to believe what they desire to believe (as long as the beliefs are not forced on others)and non-believers have every right to be critical of belief-systems and even to ridicule them. No belief-system should be immune from criticism and critical analysis or even mockery. To assert that a belief-system should be immune from critical analysis and treated as proved fact is insane.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 10:19 AM

Posted by: BunrattyBill

MCMXCAD - here is something on "assassin" -

Hassan-i-Sabbah (in Persian / Arabic حسن بن صباح or حسن صباح ) (circa 1034 - 1124), or "The Old Man of the Mountain", was an Iranian Ismaili missionary who converted a community in the late 11th century in the heart of the Elburz Mountains of northern Iran.

The place was called Alamut and was attributed to an ancient king of Daylam. When Hassan discovered Alamut in the late 11th Century, it was in the hands of a Seljuk subject.

Hassan prepared the takeover of the castle by secretly converting its staff. With the household on his side, he was smuggled into the castle and began to establish his rule at Alamut.

When the castle's residents realized they were no longer in control it was too late. Hassan graciously allowed the former tenant leave of his castle in addition to a draft of 3,000 silver dinars in payment for the castle. From this point on his community and its branches spread throughout Iran and Syria and came to be called Hashshashin or Hashshishin or Assassins, an Islamic mystery cult.

Hassan ibn as-Sabba conditioned and organized a band of fearless political killers such as had never been seen before.

His method of indoctrination was unique. He constructed a secret garden and furnished it with all the delights promised in the Qur'ān to the faithful when they reached paradise. The chosen were drugged, one or two at a time, and taken to this garden by night.

When they woke up in the morning they were surrounded by beautiful and scantily clad women who would minister to their every need and desire. After being allowed to savor this false —but pleasant and sensual — paradise for a day or so, they were again drugged before being taken back to awaken in their own squalid hovel or cave dwelling.

To them, it was as if it had been a vivid dream. Hæsæn-e Sæbba then sent for them, told them God had given them a preview of Paradise, and surprised them by telling them exactly what each had been up to while in the secret garden.

So successful was he in this method of conditioning and indoctrination that it was said he once astounded a visiting amīr whom he wanted to impress with his power by sending for one of his men and ordering him to kill himself — which he immediately did.

When an Assassin was sent out by Ibn as-Sabba to carry out some violent death, the Assassin was just as dedicated. So convinced were the Assassins that they would be rewarded in paradise that they never hesitated to fulfill their missions of murder, even though this often meant their victims’ bodyguards would kill them immediately afterward.

The group inspired terror out of all proportion to their scant numbers and territory. The members were organized into rigid classes, based upon their initiation into the secrets of the order. The devotees constituted a class that sought martyrdom and followed orders with unquestioned devotion,

Most of the victims of the Assassins were Sunni Muslims. There were some extremely highly placed victims including Nizam-ul-Mulk. It is known that Saladin, incensed by several almost successful attempts on his life, besieged their chief Syrian stronghold of Masyaf during his reconquest of Outremer in 1176 but quickly lifted the siege after parley, and thereafter attempted to maintain good relations with the sect.

The sect's own extant (and doubtless embellished) accounts tell of the Old Man himself stealing into Saladin's tent in the heart of his camp, and leaving a poisoned cake and a note saying "You are in our power" on Saladin's chest as he slept.

Another account tells of a letter sent to Saladin's maternal uncle, vowing death to the entire royal line, perhaps no idle threat; whatever the truth of these accounts (and likely it will remain a mystery) he clearly heeded their warning, and desisted. Alone amongst the Islamic heretics Saladin so despised, the batinis would be granted leeway.

Some commentators make comparisons between the historical Assassin movement and Al Qaeda, noting the similar tactics of terror, political assassination, the promise of reaching paradise, as well as the cult-like mysticism around Osama Bin Laden.

Al Qaeda is also a secret society, with its leaders purportedly hiding in mountain hideouts. Martyrdom is also a key aspect of Al Qaeda's tactics. Moreover, confirmed culprits so far for 9-11 and the Madrid Bombs were all drug-users. Given the pejorative nature of the term, sympathizers of Al Qaeda would be expected to dispute the similarities.

Posted by: shiva at November 16, 2006 10:25 AM

shiva-

It sounds like Jim Jones. Once people abandon critical analysis of anything-look out man. Every person has beliefs that cannot be proved by reason because we need some explanation of things that cannot be resolved by reason. However, religious beliefs, atheism, political ideology, etc. are often treated as objective fact and the results are usually oppression and finally mass murder-or mass suicide (as at Jonestown).

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 10:40 AM

Hashish-hashin Hashish-hashin
Hashish-hashin Hashish-hashin
Hashish-hashin Hashish-hashin
Hashishin

Black-September Black-September
Black-September Black-September
Black-September Black-September
Black-September

Death unto all infidels in oil
Guide us o thou genie of the smoke
Lead us to a thousand and one nights
In the perfumed garden of delights

Petro-dollar Petro-dollar
Petrol-D'allah Petrol-D'allah
Petro-dollar Petro-dollar
Petro-dollar
It is written in the song of the desert
It is written in the signs in the stars
It is written in the sands of the hour-glass
It is written
It is written in the eye of the falcon
It is written in the shade of the scorpion
It is written in the wealth of the sun
It is written
It is written that man's truth is a mirage
It is written that death's an oasis
It is written for all unbelievers
It is written

Death unto all infidels in oil
Guide us o thou genie of the smoke
Lead us to a thousand and one nights
In the perfumed garden of delights

Lyrics Robert Calvert
Played by Hawkwind
Album Quark Strangeness & Charm

The lyric,s to the above song where written more than 30yrs ago by one of the best bands on the english rock scene.

Just read the text again and see how Robert Calvert,tells how it is,plus the fact,it is a great track.

While not sacrificing the sci-fi themes of yore, Calvert nevertheless transformed their focus to deal with issues of Islamic fundamentalism, nuclear holocaust and cloning that still have relevance for us today.

Often his words use clever double entendres and plays on words (“Petro-dollar Petro-dollar Petrol-D'allah Petrol-D'allah”), while employing a great deal of humor

HAWKWIND WHERE ON THE CASE OF ISLAM 30 YRS AGO

Posted by: shiva at November 16, 2006 10:40 AM

"The Islamic state should never force people to become Muslim by any means, as some might think. If this ever took place in history, then it was obviously a grave mistake that had been made by a few ignorant rulers who did not follow the ethical code of the prophetic errand in this life".

Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. You don't have to look to history and a few "ignorant rulers" to see the "grave mistake" of persecuting non-muslims for their religious faiths.
You can't be a Saudi citizen unless you are a Muslim, and if you convert you'll be executed.
The same penality for conversion is meted out in Iran and Afghanistan, and none of these Islamic states apologize to anyone for it. After all, It's Gods law as revealed to Mohammad.
Other Muslim countries might not kill you officially for apostasy, but you'll die, never-the-less, and no one will punish your killers.
Odd that you stand practically alone in your interpretation of the "ethical code of the prophetic errand in this life". If you preached this in just about any country in the Islamic world, you'd be lucky to escape with your life.

Posted by: rational at November 16, 2006 10:49 AM

Ramon...at it again...these people here are tough, they know the facts. They wont yield to your cut and paste jobs, and basic absurdities. All your Bibical comparisons are laughable. They do nothing to illuminate the evils of Islam, which dont change by your denials. The best response to your feeble attempts is..."yeah, so what"...
While you are fooling around in here Ramon, why dont you actually READ the articles and comments. Maybe you will actually LEARN something...apostacy is just around the corner Ramon...get out (of Islam) now while the getting is good...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 16, 2006 11:06 AM

Mr. Bush, have you read the Qu’ran, and if so, what are your impressions of the book?

It would make sense that he has read it; he’s a religious man, likes to read books, and probably 70% of his work commitments have something to do with Muslims and the problems they cause. The problem is that in order to speak freely about the threat, which the US Military Academy just recognized is a major percentage of humanity in the Middle East and North Africa, you define it as entire societies. Men, women, and children. Societies that cannot be reasoned with or appeased for any length of time.

My guess is that the President knows exactly what he’s up against. His options are the Democracy project, isolationism, and a war that would require rules of engagement that would make the electorate sick to their stomachs in today’s world. The first option is giving way to the second. And our Islamic friends are strengthening our stomachs for the third.

The West needs to establish a retaliation doctrine now, that makes it clear that attacks in Western cities by Islamic groups will be answered with a disproportional use of force against the leadership of Islamic nations and the populations that have put them (or allowed them to stay) in place. Notice needs to be made that future Muslim casualties will be victims of their own societies, not of my society trying to defend itself.

Posted by: limes at November 16, 2006 11:08 AM

Ramon,
Words.....just words.
The actions of islam speak very loudly.
You never did tell me how the West is hurting the 3rd world. I waited and waited. Now tell us, how does the US hurt undeveloped countries?

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 16, 2006 11:59 AM

Ramon -

Jesus was speaking figuratively regarding the "sword"....the sword being the word of God....not a literal sword. You have to consider the context, and not take 'sword' so literally.

Jesus was NEVER in favor of spreading the gospel with a sword, but "by the sword", God's word. Remember what He said to Peter in the Garden of Gethsemanie during His arrest? He rebuked Peter for cutting off the Romans soldiers ear with his sword, and Jesus told him to put AWAY his sword. Then Jesus healed the soldiers ear!

And when Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace to the earth, He meant that the Truth of our sins would cause a disturbance -- an internal, soul felt disturbance, because once we realize that we are sinners, then we will see our need for God. And Jesus Christ IS that God. Allah is not.

Since you know so much about the words of Jesus, then you also know that one day each and every one of us will bow to Him -- that "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord." Romans 14:11

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 12:00 PM

To listen to what the President and Condi say, they and their advisors do not realize the true nature of the threat, nor do they want to.

To do so would force them to stare into the abyss--a generations long war against the entire Muslim world or a large part of it (see the just released Military Academy Center for Combating Terrorism report that concluded that a majority of the Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East are radicals) costing enormous amounts of U.S. blood and treasure, forcing a major recasting of American government and society and bringing with it attacks on the continental U.S. and slaughter, horror and peril far greater, perhaps, than WWII.

Like the patient who's just been told the horrifying diagnosis, they keep repeating in their heads, "It can't be true, there's some mistake" as they try to find some less costly and perilous course of action. As with the patient who can't face grisly reality, this only leads to quack cures and the loss of precious time; time during which the potentially lethal disease continues to spread and grow.

Posted by: GaryK at November 16, 2006 12:05 PM

Final thoughts re multiculturalism: I think the apologist excrement of people like Armstrong and Esposito is put into the mould of multiculturalism and is itself a supremacist dogma. The truth is that all cultures (Islam, Western, Chinese, etc.) must believe in their superiority (Islam certainly does that in Saudi Arabia, etc.) To really understand a culture, I think we have to analyse its supremacist assumptions, its supremacist beliefs, and note facts that contradict the assumptions-beliefs. (People like Robert are really attacked for questioning the dogmas of multiculturalism.)

The West has several belief-assumptions that should be questioned and one of them is multiculturalism. It is a belief that needs to be critically analysed. There is no proof that cultures are equal or that it is healthy to be uncritically "open" to other cultures. A real appreciation of other cultures (including Islam)draws a sharp separation between the beliefs and facts re the culture and makes judgements about what is good and what bad-sick in the culture-otherwise "multiculturalism" is a mandate to abandon reason and critical analysis.

I think part of Robert's problem is that he is a heretic on the matter of multiculturalism. He is ignoring the doctrine that all cultures are equal and saying "not so fast" as he critically analyzes Islam. Robert is an apostate-heretic for folks like Armstrong-Esposito. Robert and Hugh are bad people in the Church of Multiculturalism.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 12:16 PM

kaosktrl:

The article you linked says the following:

"we must remain aware of the moral distinction between sects like the Wahhabis and terrorist groups like al Qaeda..."

What horseshit! Gimme a brake!
Just read that line of nonsense and vomit!

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 16, 2006 12:18 PM

@Ramon

Should we call your prophet "Mohammad The Masturbator"?

(1) Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible). (Book #4, Hadith #229)

(2) Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar: I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. " (Book #4, Hadith #231)

(3) Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: I heard Sulaiman bin Yasar talking about the clothes soiled with semen. He said that 'Aisha had said, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Apostle and he would go for the prayers while water spots were still visible on them. (Book #4, Hadith #232)

(4) Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them. (Book #4, Hadith #233)

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 16, 2006 12:27 PM

RAMON stop your evil lies about Christianity and Judaism --your historical quotes from the old testament are just that HISTORICAL no christian and jew is commanded to kill tribes that dont exist.

PLUS your quotes from the new testament have to do with Jesus judging evil people (like you) AFTER DEATH --it does NOT say to kill people here now on earth!!

Also my SECULAR friends are unto you when you try to critizie (unsuccessfully no less) Christianity/Judaism because
THE LOUDNESS OF THE JIHAD ATTACKS ALL AROUND THEIR EARS DROWN OUT YOUR ARGUMENTS. And they easily see through (we all do) your attempt to get us off the topic!

ISLAM HAS QUOTES THAT ARE COMMANDS TO MUSLIMS FOR ALL TIME!!! ISLAMS QUOTES ARE TO KILL UNBELIEVERS NOW "WHEREVER YOU MAY FIND THEM"!!!! Other religions simply do not have that!!!

And since you INSIST on trying to mislead us I will CONTINUE to quote the quran/hadiths that clearly SHOW ALL people what YOU believe:

QUOTES FROM YOUR EVIL BOOKS IN ISLAM:

Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.’”
Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an:48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”
Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an:47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.”
Tabari VI:138 “Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.”
Tabari VI:139 “Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse ‘And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.’”
Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Qur’an:5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Tabari IX:22 “The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly.”
Tabari IX:25 “By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta’if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant.”
Tabari IX:82 “The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”
Tabari IX:88 “Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah’s Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger’s command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them.”
Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”
Muslim:C9B1N29 “Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: ‘I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.’ Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat.”
Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.’”
Muslim:C10B1N176 “Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: ‘There is no god but Allah,’ but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: ‘Did he profess “There is no god but Allah,” and even then you killed him?’ I said: ‘He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.’ The Prophet said: ‘Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?’”
Muslim:C20B1N4597 “The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: ‘There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.’”
Muslim:C28B20N4628 “Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty.”
Muslim:C28B20N4629 “The Messenger said: ‘One who is wounded in the Way of Allah—and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way—will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 “The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: ‘Who is the best of men?’ He replied: ‘A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah’s Cause.’”
Muslim:C42B20N4684 “A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: ‘Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?’ The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.’”
Muslim:C53B20N4717 “The Prophet said: ‘This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N288 “I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, ‘We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.’ I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him.”
Bukhari:V5B59N290 “The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward.”
Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:217 “They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: ‘Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause have the hope of Allah’s mercy.”
Qur’an:2:244 “Fight in Allah’s Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all.”
Qur’an:2:246 “He said: ‘Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?’ They said: ‘How could we refuse to fight in Allah’s Cause?’”
Ishaq:280 “The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah’s command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight.”
Qur’an:61:2 “O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.”
Bukhari:V4B52N61 “Allah’s Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight.”
Ishaq:398 “Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage.”
Qur’an:3:146 “How many prophets fought in Allah’s Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah’s Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors].”
Ishaq:393 “How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast.”
Qur’an:3:153 “Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you.”
Qur’an:3:154 “Say: ‘Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain.”
Ishaq:440 “Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad’s foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword.”
Ishaq:470 “We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls.”
Qur’an:61:4 “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.”
Qur’an:61:11 “Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah’s Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!” Qur’an 61:12 “He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies.”
Qur’an:8:5 “Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting).”
Qur’an:24:53 “They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah’s Cause). Say: ‘Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.’”
Qur’an:4:74 “Let those who fight in Allah’s Cause sell this world’s life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah’s Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.”
Qur’an:4:75 “What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah’s Cause?” [Another translation says:] “What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?”
Qur’an:4:76 “Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah.”
Qur’an:4:77 “Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: ‘Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?’”
Qur’an:4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”
Qur’an:4:84 “Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah’s Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.”
Qur’an:4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”
Qur’an:4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”
Qur’an:4:100 “He who leaves his home in Allah’s Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy.”
Qur’an:4:102 “When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come—taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.”
Qur’an:4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.”

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 12:28 PM

Ramon,

What deceptive garbage in using the Luke 19:27 quote in this manner. This was Jesus speaking in parables. He was not making that statement as a prescription from Himself. He was speaking as the King in the story in the way a King would be known to speak in this situation. Since you have problems understanding simple parables, the point is this: God gives all Chrisitians gifts to use for the Kingdom. Just as this King would be upset, God is not pleased if we decide to "bury" the gift.

The other quotes from Jesus are not "prescriptions" to violence. It is Jesus speaking "figuratively" about what HE brings. He brings DIVISION within families when a member becomes a Christian. I know former Muslims who have come to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. In every case, their families cut them off and even tried to kill them. This is exactly the division Jesus speaks of.

The Old Testament quotes are DESCRIPTIVE and not PRESCRIPTIVE (as in the violent and hateful Koran: "Slay the unbelievers wherever you find him" Surah 9:5 and many other such verses). The violence was clearly limited in time, scope, and area. Jesus' commands abrogate any idea of violence in God's name.

Another major difference: The God of Christianity clearly commands: "Revenge is mine". Jesus makes clear that humanity will be judged, but that God will do the judging. Men will be judged on their righteousnous; those who accept Jesus Christ (as Lord, savior and His sacrifice on the cross for sins) through faith will be judged in Jesus' righteousness. Christianity teaches to "turn the other cheek" and forgive enemies because God will bring ultimate judgement. He wants His followers to be unstained by hatred and violence (which we all know destroys the soul).

In the Koran, "Allah" tells his followers that he gets his revenge through his followers. In other words, when the follower murders an "unbeliever", actually Allah is getting revenge.

Posted by: hello123 at November 16, 2006 12:35 PM

@Ramon

If Mohammad were alive today he'd be an aids-infected crack addict with a couple of nasty hoochie-kootchie muslimas for sale.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 16, 2006 12:36 PM

Multiculturalism goes hand-in-hand with the trend of academia toward Hegelian dialectic thinking. Since university means "unity in diversity," and since higher education recognized the inevitability of globalization decades ago, relativism has replaced plain old, Aristotelian syllogistic reasoning as the de rigueur approach to social problem solving.

While the idea of taking the thesis and the antithesis, and finding the synthesis, makes teaching a large college class with a large contingent of foreign exchange students a seem lot easier for professors, it ignores a very pertinent question: does the dialect form or reasoning, or the western either/or, syllogistic form most closely reflect reality?

Indian-born Christian apologist Ravi Zacharius nails it for me when he says, "Even in India we look both ways before crossing the street - it's either the bus, or me, not both!"

Posted by: Clive at November 16, 2006 12:36 PM

Multiculturalism goes hand-in-hand with the trend of academia toward Hegelian dialectic thinking. Since university means "unity in diversity," and since higher education recognized the inevitability of globalization decades ago, relativism has replaced plain old, Aristotelian syllogistic reasoning as the de rigueur approach to social problem solving.

While the idea of taking the thesis and the antithesis, and finding the synthesis, makes teaching a large college class with a large contingent of foreign exchange students a seem lot easier for professors, it ignores a very pertinent question: does the dialect form or reasoning, or the western either/or, syllogistic form most closely reflect reality?

Indian-born Christian apologist Ravi Zacharius nails it for me when he says, "Even in India we look both ways before crossing the street - it's either the bus, or me, not both!"

Posted by: Clive at November 16, 2006 12:36 PM

In essence, I think "multiculturalism" is itself a supremacist belief-system. It is a supremacist belief currently held in the West by many of the high priests of academia. It needs to be critically analysed. We should accept no beliefs-dogmas in any culture- otherwise we must be in an environment where it is dangerous to think.

To really appreciate and truly understand other cultures, and our own culture, we must look at all supremacist belief-assumptions in each culture. All cultures assert, in one form or other, their superiority. It's the nature of a culture. Indignation is the usual response to questions re dogma, and that's no different with the dogma-supremacist-assumption of multiculturalism.

It's another horseshit dogma.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 12:40 PM

Ramon is a liar, just like his false prophet, Muhammad was. Ramon is doing what his religion tells him to do -- lie, cheat, kill for the sake of Islam. Ramon is a zombie for his 'faith'.

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 12:48 PM

Frank that might be true about mulitculturism but at least nonmuslim cultures can assimilate into the US . For example the Irish and italians, Ukranians, Scots, Greeks, Germans etc go into a country and ADD to it (mainly because they are of chrisitan background) they do NOT strap bombs on their butts and explode. OR as was exposed in the Glen Beck show last night they do not have private schools that have texts preaching they blow all nonbelivers up. I have a friend who went to a private catholic school and one who went to a private baptist school BOTH taught to honor your country and be good citizens.

I have Indian hindu friends and they try to assimilate --they are hindus though so they do NOt have to blow us up. In their faith they can be friends with nonhindus but in Islam you may NOT be friends but you must hate nonmuslims. "Fight them wherever you find them" etc.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 12:52 PM

I guess what I am saying is that multiculturism is about race not religion. I dont care where somebody is from as long as he is not professing a religion that seeks to overtake my country. The rest of them (nonmuslims from wherever) readily want to become westerners but islamists?? The polls last year taken regarding how many muslims in the US want shiiria law over the consitution was stagerring. Its not the race its the damn religion of death.
Ban Islam in the US as you would the Nazis is what I say. ISLAM=NAZISM. Our idiotic liberal politicians dont see it, they want to sit in their mansions or visit their golf courses until the end when some mad fool blows them up with a dirty nuke suitcase bomb (Hamid Mir says there are six in Us and Europe now I believe).

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 12:57 PM

Ramon doesn't reply -- he only emotes.

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 1:00 PM

Clive-

I don't know a lot about Hegel, so I can't comment with any certainty on the matter. However, I do know when 1 +1 = 2 and when things don't add-up.

Real diversity is diversity of thought. This conformist visual diversity dogma that is so much of the multicultural dogma makes critical analysis practically a crime.

If education is not about knowing what is good and what is bad in anything(by use of reason)-then what is it about? What the "multiculturalists" are saying is that we should not make any judgements about what is good and what is bad in anything and that that is being educated. We are being told there is no good and bad, that we have no right to judgement. (When Ravi Zacharius says its universally good to look both ways before crossing the street he demonstrates he knows something about judgements re good and bad. It's called using your head.)

Multiculturalists are saying "don't think, don't make judgements about what is good and bad in a culture". It's really indoctrination. It's a dogma. It's no different than any other belief-system. It's horseshit to be told not to subject it to critical analysis.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 1:08 PM

quotes from hadith/quran the books of hate and evil:

Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”

Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”

You see in Islam UNLIKE ANY OTHER FAITH the command is to continually fight ALL people and cultures until they are under Islam. These demon inspired followrs of the moongood allah will stop at nothing until they kill innoenct people or force them to convert. They love to hate, and rape, and tear little babies apart. They are the dark ones amoung you the true vampires in human flesh. They hate America and the West and even other muslims if those muslims are not willing to kill.

They accuse Jews of drinking blood but it is the muslims who drink blood in a manner of speaking isnt it? Oh how they loooove to come here and try to stir up their lies and they lie in wait in the US and the west cursing jews and chrisitans in their mosques every friday while christians are told by christ to "pray for ALL people" and to "bless those who curse you"

But muslims ONLY curse unbelivers, foaming at the mouth they have a vile hatred for you my fellow kafiir. They dream of killing and beheading you but they come here and talk of the "beauty of Islam" and try to show manners and niceites. Ask the poor 15 year old scottish boy killed by these monsters just for being nonmulism in Scothland.

These creatures beasts in human form will stop at nothing to make you prostrate in front of their lewd moongod. They growl at you in their hearts and merrily plan jihad at night, screaming allah ackbar as they chop peoples heads off.

Allah ackbar means god (thier god) is greater.

greater than who? Than your God.

The truth is their god is weak and evil, who needs flesh and blood to kill for him.
Allah is not greater is the lesser.

THE GOD OF ISRAEL IS GREATER.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 1:13 PM

- 1Ti 2:1 -

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

----------

In islam:

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (Quran 9:14)

-----------

Allah wants them muslims to be his henchmen. allah loves blood of innocent unbelievers.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 1:21 PM

THE ALLIES SHALL WIN-

I think that is a genuinely superior aspect of American culture. The pressure to assimilate here and the pressure to respect the beliefs of others and not to impose our beliefs on others is a rightful assumption of our cultural superiority on the matter. That's my judgement. Of course, folks in Saudi Arabia would disagree. So let's debate and have a free and open exchange of ideas on which culture is superior on the matter of respecting other beliefs, Saudi Arabia or the USA. Let's think, and let's make judgements on the matter, and tell those who tell us we have no right to judge to "curb your dogma"-LOL.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 1:22 PM

Unfortunately, I'd expect that if the President's inner circle has "learned lessons from the life of Muhammad," they're of the Karen Armstrong type.

Next thing you know, Bush and Co. will be mending their own clothes.

Posted by: MarisolJW at November 16, 2006 1:24 PM

Here's the bottom line Ramon and Tony Snow as well.
If you took a survey of all Christians, you could maybe come up with fifty to one hundred, who would be willing to commit violent acts to: Protect Jesus name, protect the Bible authority in general, or force Christianity onto someone.
If you took the same survey with muslims, only about Mohammad and the Quran, and the value of forced conversions, you would find maybe several million willing submitters. How is it then that there is no suicide bomber schools in Christianity, but Islam is able to muster 'thousands of volunteers'. All willing to disintegrate for Allah, as long as they took unsuspecting innocents with them. Actually, where they are going, they go alone...there aint no virgins there either. Iblis is waiting Ramon...he has a mean look on his face and a big stick...Convert to Christianity or Wicca before its too late...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 16, 2006 1:24 PM

duh_swami the thing is muslims have the jihad doctirne in thier books there is no such thing in Chrisitianity , Judaism, Sikhism, hinduism etc
Only Islam has jihad to fight unbelievers as a guarantee to reach paradise!! its sick

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 1:34 PM

Islam is the first large-scale, religiously inspired brand of fascism that western culture has faced since global communications came into its own, and we are now scrambling to figure out who we are in the face of it. The US, based on the Enlightenment ideas of its founders, has always functioned as a secular framework within which numerous secular and religious subcultures, and their attendant worldviews could coexist.

The proviso here is that certain values arising from the Judeo-Christian worldview were presupposed (e.g., personal responsibility, the intrinsic value of life, self-determination). That's not the same thing as saying that everyone had to become a Christian, but simply that those presuppositions had to be agreed on before the aforementioned framework could function.

The Islamist movement will eventually force our hand since, based on its own source documents, it is flatly incompatible with western culture. By doggedly defending the relativist idea that all cultures are good, and that, with enough education, everyone can get along, the academic and political leadership is backed up to an ideological wall here. Whether, or how soon, they admit that this idea is unsustainable will determine how we come through this.

If this PC drivel isn't decisively refuted soon, it will result in the west cutting its roots. By multiculturalism's anti-Semitic biases, it will cut off the branch it sits on.

Posted by: Clive at November 16, 2006 1:41 PM

Frank yes I agree --Now I would extend that and say anywhere there is the democratic ideal followed properly (ie like America) who have a superior culture. Once you deviate from pure Greek democracy (like the French are doing ) and are 'too nice' because of their socialist policies then you get all these types who want to recreate your country in their view. Take my country : Canada. They are democratic like you but waaaaaaaaay too liberal so we are getting an influx of muslims who hate the WEst here! We had 17 of these little hatemongers just a few months ago try to blow up various sites here in Toronto (they were stopped by the Mounties in time). The bad thing is alot of them were born and RAISED here. I guess all that universal medical care and overly generous welfare system the libs have set up here must of offended them huh?

Anyway my dad is a Greek from Greece and when he lived in USA he said: "The only people who have understood that old idea of democracy are the Americans. The Europeans are slowly sliding into socialism that will destroy them." He worked for the govt for years and was an MP assigned to hunt out commies in varoius areas in Greece.

Commies, Nazis, Islamofasicsts these 'philosophies' are dangerous to a true democracy (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to make money and keep it etc).

Islam as Robert Spencer keeps telling us is NOT just a religion its a politcal system. YEAR ONE of the islamic calender is not when Muhammed was born but when Islam first got political rule over land thru him.

God Bless America.
I love you guys.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 1:43 PM

Robert wrote above: "SO HAS ANYONE ASKED Tony Snow whether people in the president's inner circle learned lessons from the life of Mohammed, or the etymology of the word "assassin"?

as·sas·sin
n.
1. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.
2. Assassin - A member of a secret order of Muslims who terrorized and killed Christian Crusaders and others.

[French, from Medieval Latin assassnus, from Arabic an, pl. of a, hashish user, from a, hashish; see hashish.]

Word History: At first glance, one would be hard-pressed to find a link between pleasure and the acts of assassins. Such was not the case, however, with those who gave us the word assassin. They were members of a secret Islamic order originating in the 11th century who believed it was a religious duty to harass and murder their enemies. The most important members of the order were those who actually did the killing. Having been promised paradise in return for dying in action, the killers, it is said, were made to yearn for paradise by being given a life of pleasure that included the use of hashish. From this came the name for the secret order as a whole, an, "hashish users." After passing through French or Italian, the word came into English and is recorded in 1603 with reference to the Muslim Assassins.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000

Posted by: Malinois at November 16, 2006 1:53 PM

Malinois,

Those Muslims haven't changed at all, have they?

What I thought funny the other day, was that Abu Hamza al-Muhajir called the U.S. the land of slaves and narcotics:

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2006/11/10/al-qaeda-leader-calls-america-the-country-of-slaves-and-narcotics/

The hypocrisy never ends in the Mideast!

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 16, 2006 2:02 PM

People here should support Christians who are persecuted for their faith in Muslim countries.

There are only three charities I know off who deal with this sort of thing.

Two are in America. One is Persecution.org International Christian concern

http://www.persecution.org

There is also Voice of the Martyrs.

The third is in the UK. It is Christian Solidarity Worldwide.
http://www.csw.org.uk/


The website http://www.asianews.it/ under it’s freedom of religion section also reports on the persecution of Christians.

I still think that supporting these charities is worthwhile but on reflection I think a note of caution is required.
These charities run letter-writing campaigns on behalf of unjustly imprisoned Christians.
While it is a good thing that Christians who live in the free world campaign on behalf of these people, it should be made clear that joining such a charity to participate in letter writing campaigns, similar to those run by Amnesty International, may involve a very small potential of risk.
Such a campaigns usually involve writing to the embassies of the countries in question.
In a campaign such as this, this would involve writing to the countries such as Eygpt, Indonesia and Pakistan.
Of course, you are required to provide your own postal address if you require a reply.
( Having participated in Amnesty International’s letter writing campaigns, I can tell you that your chances of receiving a reply are virtually non-existant)

Anyone who is considering supporting such a campaign should be aware that giving away your postal address may expose you to a very small element of risk, from those determined to oppose, by violent means if necessary, the exercise of religious and political freedom. Of course, if no one is prepared to run this risk, the future for persecuted Christians looks bleak indeed.

Posted by: Not_philip_Pullman at November 16, 2006 3:48 PM

Malinois to Bulldog:

Nope, haven't changed a bit!
The mASSlims- I mean ASSasins- still hold as their highest duty to Allah mASSacre of non-believers. They harASS, ASSail, and ASSault all who do not kissASS and ASSimilate.

KickASS Infidels! KickASS !!

Posted by: Malinois at November 16, 2006 4:04 PM

Maybe someone needs to keep a running tally of the Christians murdering all the non-believers in the world like at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

LOL

Posted by: Missourimama at November 16, 2006 4:19 PM

I have a question.

If Christanity is so violent, why is it spreading even much faster then Islam and in a special way in the global south?

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 16, 2006 4:22 PM

Not_philip_Pullman,

Thank-you for your helpful information.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 16, 2006 4:24 PM

The reason why Christianity is spreading faster is because of the hope it gives to the belivers.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 16, 2006 4:26 PM

THE ALLIES SHALL WIN-

I agree with your dad re socialism. Mandated equality is the enemy of freedom because someone (usually the govt) has to be controlling the population to keep some people down and prevent others from going up. Equality of opportunity is the ideal-not equality of results. I think people here (especially the one's from former communist countries) are particularly cool to the idea of socialism.

Re: "Take my country : Canada. They are democratic like you but waaaaaaaaay too liberal so we are getting an influx of muslims who hate the WEst here"!

Cultures have to have a healthy narrowness in order to survive. People have paid a high price to sepearate religious authority from secular society. Canada has to become narrow and hard-line on the seperation of religious authority from state-secular authority. A lot of Muslims don't seem to understand that beliefs are not facts.

I wonder how much of this isn't self-hatred turned out on society. I heard a Muslim guy (originally from the West Bank) say on the radio "a lot of people can't handle freedom". He called into a talk-show. His point was that a lot of the people who appeared to hate America really were afraid of freedom and desired to be controlled, were used to being controlled.

Posted by: Frank at November 16, 2006 4:30 PM

You MUSLIMS ask us to read the Koran - most of us have read enough of the Koran to know what a wicked faith Islam is. More importantly, many of Islam's followers haven't read the Koran for themselves. The problem isn't that we DON'T understand Islam - the problem is that we DO.
Why do you believe the words of a man who was:
violent
a sex maniac who deflowered a 9 year old girl
had hallucinations
after all you only have his word that an "angel" spoke to him - and since he had hallucinations any claims of divine revelations look rather shaky
Mohammed performed no miracles after all
and calls his followers for ALL TIME to "kill unbelievers wherever they find them."

'moderates' are those that dont read and obey the Koran!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 4:47 PM

FRANK yes I think deep down inside true freedom scares many muslims. They cant handle it because they are from places like the west bank.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 16, 2006 4:49 PM

The Allies Shall Win writes,
"...I think deep down inside true freedom scares many muslims."

Absolutely! This theme is covered in depth in the book, Reading Lolita in Teheran.

Posted by: the poetess at November 16, 2006 5:24 PM

Malinois - Thank you for that definition. My little dictionary only mentions that it comes from the Arabic "hashshashin, hashish eaters, with reference to murderers under the influence of hashish". It doesn't say anything about Islam. Huh. I didn't know I had a politically correct dictionary.

So, folks, what would be a more accurate name for these modern-day "extremist Islamics": assassins or terrorists? "Assassin" makes me think of sneaks and "terrorist" makes me think of bombs.

Posted by: Josephine at November 16, 2006 5:32 PM

You're welcome Josephine.

I found the definition at my favorite online dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assassin

Malinois

Posted by: Malinois at November 16, 2006 6:25 PM

We all know that in the wider perspective of western political arena and its periphery; Jews and Christians go hand in hand seeking their enigmatic motives in world affairs; with a complete unison between them. But for last 2000 years; Christians have not been able to convince Jews that; the prophet Jesus, the Christian picked up and follow, was actually prophet of Jews and their reformer that Israelite failed to recognise!

Jesus was out rightly rejected by Israelite. He was put on the cross to die a humiliating death. How unfortunate it is, that Israelites (Jews); were the chosen people of God. God gave them the book. To keep them on the right track, a follow up service was also catered for, and God very graciously kept on sending many other prophets till such time, Jesus came to reform them. Succeeding religions are not that fortuitous to avail such like divinely facilities of track guarding.

This is Gods design that truth is always kept high at all the times and in a very clear, vivid, and distinguished way. It just requires a genuine, sincere leap forward to reach for it. Jews know about Christianity very well, same is the case of Christian that they know Islam in details. But there is a mind set of a creed of zealots found in their religious arenas, who keeps a close watch to guard against any intrusion effecting the vested interests of their hierarchy, They make sure that it stays twisted as required; at all the time and at all levels. Any cross over is forbidden. Then there is capital, wealth and estate business involved in these arenas. One can find series of economic empires erected on these foundations. The splendour, opulence, pomp and show and prestige that clergies of these fogy empires enjoy; all this simply restrict them to accept the truth knocking loud at their doors. A tremendous courage is required to step out of delude and attempt a cross over.

Study with a particular preconception; of Islam and its jurisprudence or some fataws of ulemas, etc, may not be the quest of a pertinent relevance to find truth offered by Islam. This can be rendered as; a process under taken, only to sift for the clues, by turning all the stones; but ignoring and passing by all the significant portions and cherry picking only few which are found covetable or they yield and affirm the negative perception. This is an exercise under taken by the inquisitors to keep himself and his circle of cohorts elated.

Surely earlier religions are like elementary stages of education for mankind; before it was all finalised by God Almighty to culminate it at Islam and gave His book of guidance and light for mankind-Koran. God reveals:
Chapter: 61 (Al-Saff) Verse : 7
“And call to mind when Jesus, son of Mary, said, 'O children of Israel, surely, I am Allah's Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the prophecies of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad. And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, this is manifest sorcery.”
In chapter : 3 (Al-`Imran) Verse : 4 “He has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and He has sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this, as a guidance to the people; and He has sent down the Discrimination”.
And in chapter : 3 (Al-`Imran) Verse : 20
“Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Book did not disagree but, after knowledge had come to them, out of mutual envy. And whoso denies the Signs of Allah, then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning.”

And in chapter : 48 (Al-fath) Verse : 30
“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are hard against the disbelievers but tender among themselves. Thou seest them bowing and prostrating themselves in Prayer, seeking Allah's grace and pleasure. Their marks are upon their faces, being the traces of prostrations. This is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is like unto a seed-produce that sends forth its sprout, then makes it strong; it then becomes stout, and stands firm on its stem, delighting the sowers - That He may cause the disbelievers to boil with rage at the sight of them. Allah has promised, unto those of them, who believe and do good works, forgiveness and a great reward.”

Islam is very well a filtered and refined product of God Almighty crystallized over a period of many centuries and bestowed to Muslims; for its delivery as blessing for the mankind. It has surely come to stay. If it is God’s design; it will prevail over all the previous denominations and they are already joining the fold of Islam in thousands.

It is God's design; more you press it down; It will spring up and emerge; more gloriously.

A Persian saying: Barking stray dogs may not forestall; the journey plan of a caravan.
------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar at November 16, 2006 7:04 PM

When I see that there are lots of comments posted underneath a topic, and find that they aren't ON-topic, it's a sure thing that an Islamic troll dropped by...and sure 'nuff...

Hopefully they're only fulfilling their jihadist obligation by being totally obnoxious on our message board, and aren't planning to kill anyone.

Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 16, 2006 7:08 PM

Malinois - Thank you for the link. I've bookmarked it.

Posted by: Josephine at November 16, 2006 8:07 PM

Maybe someone needs to keep a running tally of the Christians murdering all the non-believers in the world like at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

LOL
Posted by: Missourimama
**This is as close as I can get, notice all the Zeros!

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/massacres/

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 16, 2006 8:26 PM

Islam is the very nature of man. It is the religion and the path chosen by Almighty Allah for mankind so that they may gain happiness in this life and Paradise in the next life. Islam is not a religion in the common and distorted sense, for it does not confine its scope to one's private life. It is a complete way of life and is present in every field of human existence. Islam provides guidance for all aspects of life-individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and cultural, and national and international. The
teachings of Islam are simple and intelligible.

Posted by: Katrina at November 16, 2006 9:37 PM

“This is Gods design…” - A Khokar reads the mind of God!

“…gave His book of guidance and light for mankind-Koran.” - A Khokar bows in reverence to the “holy” book, a TRUE believer.

“Islam is very well a filtered and refined product of God Almighty crystallized over a period of many centuries and bestowed to Muslims; for its delivery as blessing for the mankind.” - A Khokar rejoices in the gift to mankind, Muslims all.

“It has surely come to stay.” – A Khokar predicts the future.

“Love for all, Hatred for none” – A Khokar shows the unbound compassion of the enlightened Mohammedean.

It must be a wonderful faith that gives such qualities to people like A Khokar. Yet, my wish, my hope is that Islam die a slow, painful death.

Posted by: butterfly at November 16, 2006 9:49 PM

Katrina -- what a load of crap! Islam is a grievous lie, and it is NOT the road to eternal life. Muhammad was a false prophet, and he's led many people to hell. An ex-Muslim can explain it better:

http://www.shoebat.com

Posted by: champ at November 16, 2006 10:01 PM

Katrina, if Islam "is the religion and the path chosen by Almighty Allah for mankind so that they may gain happiness in this life and Paradise in the next life," then WHY did it take Allah so many centuries to decide upon which path we should go? And, IF Islam has always been the way of Allah for mankind, then why is there absolutely NO evidence for it before the advent of the perverted "prophet" Mohammad?

Which leads to the next question--why would a merciful, gracious Allah choose for his "apostle" a man as thoroughly corrupt and evil as Mohammad as his "prophet?"

Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 16, 2006 10:16 PM

Since the Qur'an is the word of Allah, there is no requirement for Muslims to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). After all, they say, whose words can be better than Allah's words? They say that Allah's word is above all else and that Prophet Muhammad was sent only to his own people to guide them back to the straight path.

Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah. But if we only follow our own understanding of this Noble Book, without considering how Prophet Muhammad applied it in his daily life, we would be losing out on a huge opportunity to understand the Qur'an's true meaning and Allah's message to mankind. Who better to interpret the meaning of Allah's words than His beloved Messenger?

As Muslims, we understand that unlike us, Prophet Muhammad was infallible, inerrant, meaning that he was not subject to committing sins. This was the case for all prophets and messengers of Allah, from Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon all of them).

Posted by: Ramon at November 16, 2006 11:56 PM

Ramon -- you're right. Muhammad IS allah's beloved messenger, because allah is satan, and Muhammad is his demonic messenger -- so what you said makes perfect sense!

"You shall know them by their fruit", and Muhammad sure proved THAT to be true. His life was a mess!!! A murdering, pathetic, pedohphile mess!!

Posted by: champ at November 17, 2006 1:22 AM

'moderates' are those that dont read and obey the Koran!
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN

Then they are muslims for identification purposes only or they are apostates, but they are not moderates. All muslims that can read, read the Quran and obey it, thats why they are muslims. When they stop reading and obeying, they stop being muslims(apostacy).
That sounds simple, because it is...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 17, 2006 1:44 AM

Hi Butterfly,

Your resentment is very natural. It is close to the nature of Islam also; (in the exploratory phase)
Just like in the World of Romance.
You always resist you fiancée; before you start loving it.

Islam can certainly take care of it. Before this; that “Butterfly” turns into caterpillar.

-----------------------

Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar at November 17, 2006 5:49 AM

Could it be that the reason why Islam during the 600's spread so fast in the Middle East is because it was spread by force and bloodshed?

In other words, what Pope Benedict XVI had said back in September was simply the truth.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 17, 2006 6:19 AM

A Khokar
you got it all wrong, it is the caterpillar that turns into the butterfly, not the other way around. So, butterfly seems quite mature enough to see right through your empty rhetoric.
Also, if you 'resist your fiancee' it would be considered rape, but in your perfect islamic states you would not know the difference.

Posted by: Branislav at November 17, 2006 9:43 AM

Ramon said:

"Since the Qur'an is the word of Allah, there is no requirement for Muslims to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)."

The problem is that THEY DO follow his example (hellish torment be upon him).

They also demand the heads of those who they consider as being disrespectful to "the prophet" (damnation and defecation be upon him).

I'm still waiting for you to explain to us about Israel's "illegal occupation of "Palestine." I'm also waiting for you to explain how Islam is "logical."

Do you answer questions or just spout your propaganda?

Posted by: yohannbiimu at November 17, 2006 12:30 PM

So Katrina, if Ramon and Khokar get 72 virgins in paradise, what are you going to get? A mop and bucket? Do you get 72 virgin women also?

Paradise for you muslim women don't seem much like a paradise to me. Stop and think, islam is a muslim males "religion". It does nothing good for the women.

Maybe you need to rethink your involvement with islam. You're treated like trash on earth and then you go to Hell. Doesn't sound fair does it?

Posted by: freewoman at November 17, 2006 1:44 PM

Banislav,

You are right there that caterpillars turn into butterflies.

But that is in the nature and I am not worried about there. Worry some is that where soft soul, soft touch beautiful butterflies are being mislead; and being coerced to become arrogant and ignorant; by the website like this and are being turned into squandering caterpillars.

May God save these innocent souls! Amen
----------------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar at November 17, 2006 2:52 PM

Campus Watch recently said that the freedom of conscience upon which scholarship rests is directly threatened by radical Islamist ideologies that would happily replace Western pluralism with Sharia law. The civil society that makes university life possible is based on the freedom of conscience.
Freedom is the great threat to all tyranny, be it national institutions or academia.
Jehovah gave mankind a terrible gift, the desire of freedom. Adam and Eve choose to use freedom to break God's law, but He also gave us the gift of survival through the unquenchable desire for freedom.
Democracy is the thirst for freedom, however we choose to ues or misuse it.
The oppression of Sharia law, liberal indoctrination in universities designed to stifle free thought, and the subversion of a welfare state designed to promote group submission rather than free thought, is the aim of society today.
Ask yourself: Can I speak freely without fear of reprisal, or must my freedom of conscience live in fear because of the haters of freedom infesting our world, including our institutions of "higher learning?"

Posted by: cactus at November 17, 2006 3:04 PM

Islam is the very nature of man.

I agree look at all the horrible things mankind does to itself!

Islam is not a religion in the common and distorted sense.

True again, Islam is a lifestyle, a horrible soul-crushing one, but a lifestyle none the less.

The teachings of Islam are simple and intelligible.

Yeah, "kill the unbelievers" isn't that hard to understand.

Posted by: JadeDragoness at November 17, 2006 6:33 PM

I think, we the people, need to make it abundantly clear that we know what Islam represents to America, even though our leaders find it more politically expedient not to pin the tail on the donkey.

If someone would print up bumper stickers stating the obvious, I'd gladly buy one and plaster it to my bumper.

Think about the beauty of seeing one bumper sticker stating, "Islam Sucks, Allah is Satan." Or, how about, "Join Islam, Beat Your Wife." "Burka Fridays, Thank Allah."

I am sure that some brilliant soul on this board can surpass my measly attempts and devise wittier pans on Islam.

Imagine driving on the highway to work or school and reading all the stickers descrying the evils of Islam in plain speak. Give the average man a way to express his outrage and he's happy, we're happy and the message will percolate upward to Congress and The White House.

I'm all for scholarly works excising the voodoo of Islam, but if you reach Joe Schmoe with the truth, you've accomplished something.

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at November 17, 2006 9:11 PM

Islam is the very nature of man. It is the religion and the path chosen by Almighty Allah for mankind so that they may gain happiness in this life and Paradise in the next life. Islam is not a religion in the common and distorted sense, for it does not confine its scope to one's private life. It is a complete way of life and is present in every field of human existence. Islam provides guidance for all aspects of life-individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and cultural, and national and international. The
teachings of Islam are simple and intelligible.

Posted by: Katrina at November 16, 2006 09:37 PM

You are absolutely right when you say that "islam is not a religion in the common and distorted sense" because islam itself is a distorted blasphemy, a sacrilege. There is no spirituality in islam, only silly rituals and endless rules.

The teachings of islam are violent, intolerant, supremacist, cruel, senseless, and utterly malevolent. There is no such thing as a truly happy, serene muslim because islam demands perpetual conflict, and conflict engenders contempt and rage. Muslims are the angriest, most miserable people on the planet, as evidenced by their daily words and deeds.

I realize that a lifetime of brainwashing is irrevocable and a muslim adult is mentally handicapped, totally incapable of having an open, inquiring mind. You are drenched in the doctrine of islam, completely and utterly saturated, unable to even imagine how other people think, reason, or develop religious beliefs. I spent years studying the muslim psyche, trying to understand how and why muslims could idolize and revere a monster like muhammad, or believe that God would choose an evil, lascivious savage to be His prophet. Your perspective on the cosmos is derived from the delusions of a medieval madman who claimed to speak for God and you do not know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, because your model is imperfect, severely flawed. But if he was good enough for allah, he's good enough for muslims, case closed.

From my perspective as a Western Christian, muhammad was the epitome of evil. Allah is not a god to be worshipped or submitted to, but a satanic entity to be reviled, a bloodthirsty demon. Every inane ritual and regulation imposed by islam is designed to control the human mind, although God blessed human beings with free will. Muhammad's cruelest joke was to feign his "prophethood" and subject pathetic and frightened fools like you to the misery and damnation of islam. Your certitude is resolute and you will never falter in your misguided faith; you are pitiable. The "simple, intelligible" teachings of islam are pure hogwash designed to subjugate, humiliate, frighten, and control. What a waste of human capital.

Posted by: Susanp at November 18, 2006 1:12 AM

I have been begging politicians and the media to read the last three quarters of the quran and others of their books for some time now, but still they know nothing... I have been asking for them to talk to ex-Muslim clerics and ex- Muslims to find out why they hate us... We who read this bog and others like it, knew before we started reading it. How stupid and blind are they that they don't go to the source of the problem, it is no good asking muslims as they are allowed to lie to the infidel and in times of war, so as we are the infidel and they feel that they are at war with us then we cant believe a thing they say to us.... It is simple, they hate us because of what is written in the Quran, we are NOT muslims so we are the hated the dammed etc, and anyone with half a brain can see that there is non-stop world wide Muslim violence thus the problem has to be the Quran and others of their holy books...
it is always someone else's fault, it is the Indians, the Hindus, the French, the Australians, the Americans, the Buddhists etc,, never, never themselves. They have never been able to get along with their neighbours all throughout history, and they never seem to wonder why and our stupid governments want to blame us also... WAKE UP PEOPLE OF THE WORLD before it is toooo late...

Posted by: Gaye at November 19, 2006 5:51 AM

KAOSKTRL, you say that, Over the past few weeks, I have argued that Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies represent a perversion of Islam.
KAOSKTRL, What Osama bin Laden does is because he is following what Mohammad said that Allah told them to do, he is being a good Muslim, not a fanatic... read the last three quarters of the quran and others of their holy books. They are to terrorist the world first simply because this is what Muhammad said that terrorising weakens the enemy and they are easier to conquer, then you invite to come to Islam and if they refuse u slaughter... we have had the terrorising, and the invitation, now what???
terrorists are only very good Muslims and that is the only way that they are ASSURED and without doubt of getting into paradise...

Posted by: Gaye at November 19, 2006 6:00 AM

Good on you ZenaWarriorPrincess, what you said was so true.. love it...

Posted by: Gaye at November 19, 2006 6:04 AM

Ramon, you are telling lies, Lamentations 4.4 says, Because of thirst the infant's tongue sticks to the roof of it's mouth:
the children beg for bread, but no one give it to them.
There wasnt any bread to give...
But to all of us, we also must not take some of the verses from the Quran without reading the whole before and after the verse or we also could fall into the same pit... I believe that Muslim holy books are just horrific, and should be burned everyone of them, but I have also read some verses which we are told are bad, but I feel that they dont mean what we are told.. just as Ramon has taken these verses wrongly, so can we some of theirs,, however in having said that, when it says to go and slaughter all who will not submit, there is nothing clearer than that...and the many hundreds of verses just like it, plus their actions world wide tell us what their intentions are..

Posted by: Gaye at November 19, 2006 6:44 AM

and Frank you are dead right, no where in history has any race of people been able to live successfully for long with another race who is totally different and who has different gods...
There has to be more to this multiculturism simply because anyone with half a brain can see that no where in history has two totally different races of people with different gods ever been able to get along with each other for long, it just doesnt work other wise we would all be one race by now instead of thousands of different races living un-successfully beside each other...
Mixing the races has been done before in history, people then loose their identity and thus are easier to control...are they doing it again for that reason... in countries like Japan and China you can NOT buy land there and you cannot become a citizen, sensible people, they will always be a pure race while we will be fragmented and at war..

Posted by: Gaye at November 19, 2006 7:13 AM