True, Islam is not a race. But its adherents act as if they are the master race.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 22, 2006 11:15 AM

"...CAIR's Legal Director"

a.k.a - Propagandist!!!

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 22, 2006 11:25 AM

Muslims must not be allowed to scream "racism"
when ever Islam is criticized .
There is no justification for it.

Posted by: aladdinsane57 at November 22, 2006 11:28 AM

Islam is a meme, not a gene.

Islam is not a race. It's a set of ideas in people's heads. Those people come from diverse genetic backgrounds.

Muslim people deserve a future but the ideas in their heads do not.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at November 22, 2006 11:35 AM

u guys have islamphobia, trust me u guys need psychiatrist lol

Posted by: eastwest at November 22, 2006 11:36 AM

Semi off-topic for this thread, but I've been wanting to say this for a day or two now:

If CAIR truly represents the peaceful, mainstream Muslims who are as disturbed and frightened by jihadi violence as we non-Muslims, this would have been a golden opportunity to show it:

"While this incident was regrettable, it is also understandable as long violent extremists claiming to be the true followers of Mohammad (PBUH) continue to threaten and revile non-Muslims, and continue to carry out those threats in such spectacular ways. The blame is not on US Airways, the TSA, or any other law enforcement organization, but on the violent usurpers of our faith."

When I start hearing those kinds of statements, I'll believe there is a non-violent mainstream out there.

Until then, I'll take my own advice: I will no longer carp and whine at seemingly excessive security measures. Instead, I will thank those guarding my liberty and safety for their vigilance.

And when the topic comes up in conversation or on line, I'll fix the blame where it belongs: on the enemy who has vowed to destroy us.

Then I'll whine and carp about the real domestic threat to our liberty: the drug war.

Posted by: refugee at November 22, 2006 11:41 AM

It all goes back to, what religion flew into the Twin Towers, were caught going to blow up planes after leaving England, and threatening us every time we turn around? And what group would like to see sharia law in the United States?

They, the muslims, have the problem because we're on to them.

Posted by: freewoman at November 22, 2006 11:41 AM

american goverment always scares their nation, before 1990 they scared americans of cold war that ussr is coming and will force u to follow communism and then with the start of new world order(USSR break down) they brought islam and telling their people ohhhhh muslims are brining sharia..

Posted by: eastwest at November 22, 2006 11:46 AM

CAIR in "Persecuted Muslims Mock Outrage SHOCKER!"

What was their turnaround time on this? It's all too neat and tidy.

It makes perfect sense to socially (not racially, Islam is a death cult not an ethnicity) profile muslims. Last time I checked it was muslims who had the rather distasteful habit of screaming aloha snackbar and then hacking peoples heads off / flying planes into buildings / blowing themselves up etc.

Posted by: Alex at November 22, 2006 11:57 AM

Yeah, eastwest, except USSR was very interested in coming in and bringing everyone under -- I was on the USSR side of the border and of draft age and the generals were pretty gung ho to push some buttons.
What interests me is what now makes you prefer obfuscation, as the conflict will only be made bloodier by that.
Oh and right on, Tucker -- people, be sure and drop him a note saying so.

Posted by: kuchuklambat at November 22, 2006 11:58 AM

Could it be that the imans did what they did to draw attention to themselves. True prayer is quiet prayer, in which others do not know you are praying.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 22, 2006 11:58 AM

eastwest:

That may be true, but cannot the same be said for the mullahs and imans that whip their followers into a frenzy telling them that the evil Great Satan is coming with booze and porn and all else evil in the Western world.

And please tell Poland, Chechoslovakia and Ahghanistan that the Soviets where just a "made up" threat.

Get a clue MORON!

Posted by: KillHankKill at November 22, 2006 12:02 PM

americans r ruled by freemasons their agenda has been planned since 10th century as a american u should search and findout what it is..

Posted by: eastwest at November 22, 2006 12:02 PM

kill !!!!
thats a proof moron poland, check or afghanistan are they america's state??? duhhhhh NO what a dumb r u guys the contractor of world to decide what u want or what u dont..get ur self a life and stop interfaring others life, stay back and just keep ur own business

Posted by: eastwest at November 22, 2006 12:07 PM

Anslar Whatever does look a little psycho...
My girlfriend asked me last night what would have happened to those guys if they were Christians trying to pray in public in some extreme islamic country...? I sai dthey would have been treated really bad...
These Imams had it easy.

It is unsettling to me to see these muslims groups act this way...i mean, we all have an interest and a responsiblity to protect the American value of freedom of religion, and america is the best friend any of us have in the excercise of this freedom.

Jihadlove...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 12:09 PM

@eastwest

just a trifle conspiracy minded are you!

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 12:16 PM

What the hell? Playing the racist card is just lame.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 22, 2006 12:16 PM

Ok -- which guy just crapped his pants?

Posted by: champ at November 22, 2006 12:21 PM

@eastwest

Typical brainwashed idiot.

Posted by: Supermaxx at November 22, 2006 12:23 PM

eastwest says

"kill !!!!
thats a proof moron poland, check or afghanistan are they america's state???"

No, but they ARE Freemason states.

Posted by: ShortBoard Surfer at November 22, 2006 12:26 PM

@estwest..

You are a Muslim i presume and I am one too although i am a recent convert from Reform Christianity...but dont you realize that America needs to protect herself and she is justified in so doing? Do you want to see Islam outlawed in America the land of my birth? I think islam needs a MAJOR overhaul and reevaluation...Islam needs to be removed from the hands of the Imams and allowed to remove itself from the stagnation of extreme absolutism if it is to survive in the west....

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 12:31 PM

Eastwest - a little remedial English as a second language should clear up your atrocious grammatical errors which render your posts virtually indecipherable.

Jihadlove - you can bet your bottom dollar that Christians disrupting Arabic Muslims on their turf would have been dealt with in an entirely different manner. Execution or beheadings come to mind.

So when we take action on our soil to protect our own people it's racist, it's grievously inconvenient, it's racial profiling, it's deeply offensive, wahhh, wahhhh, wahhhh.

This whole incident has a manufactured look and feel to it. CAIR should be disbanded and made illegal. There are other options for these people to take if they have legitimate complaints. But every little thing they don't like is turned against us. And we run into each other trying to make things right, to appease the religion of terrorism.

We have officially gone utterly and irredeemably nuts. We have allowed this group to turn us upside down and make us feel guilty. We are increasingly having trouble distinguishing between truth and lies. We should be deporting these rabble rousers without remorse. These Imams should have been put on a plane to Iran instantly. With one way tickets.

Posted by: Muzzl'em at November 22, 2006 12:33 PM

Jihadlove following from yesterday did you go and check what abrogation is and how it relates to Sura 9.

As a recent convert do you know what the penalty will be for you if you now understand what that concept is and decide to change your mind about your recent conversion.

Tell us honestly have you entered into Islam knowing full well the implications of its doctrine.

Posted by: km at November 22, 2006 12:38 PM

Good try but Tucker still lost

Tucker deserves praise for not buckling under to CAIR automatically but he still lost the debate on an important point. Here is that important point: Tucker conceded unnecessarily the FALSE FACTUAL assertion that the imams "were just praying." In point of fact, the imams were doing much, much more than that

LEGAL POINT: A security officer on a plane has the authority to control the conduct of passengers and to remove them from the plane. PERIOD. A person who believes, even rightly, that the officer is mistaken DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE TO OBEY THE OFFICER. What these imams did was refuse to obey a direction from a security officer.

Example. Assume a security officer at an airport asked to see my suitcase, I could not refuse on the grounds that the security officer incorrectly suspects that I have something illicit in my suitcase. I must give him my suitcase and consent to search.

Regardless of what the facts were the imams refused to get off the plane.

THIS IS A WELL-PLANNED RUSE. First of all CAIR is fully aware that major broadcast journalists have not researched CAIR, they have not researched ISLAM, and they have not researched the facts of the incident for more than 5 minutes before broadcast. CAIR on the other hand rehearsed this little farce for months. It is calculated to intimiate American security and American citizens from blowing the whistle on suspicious behavior, exactly what Americans need to do.

CAIR has won this round because people think that Muslims were removed from a plan for just "praying" that is simply NOT the fact

Posted by: Athena at November 22, 2006 12:40 PM

When I played the video, Norton blocked a worm that tried to download with the video...caution.

Posted by: Abby at November 22, 2006 12:42 PM

jihadlove if u would be muslim u would have made hijra from that country. why would a muslim choose to live there where they have no respect, no integrity, they are scared, invasion of privacy. all of u please collect muslims data and send it to USCIS so all my muslims brother leave ur country and live with peace and harmony in their own country. to all muslims dont sell any oil to west, we are enough for eachother to make our life better. we dont need west. life would be so good u guys live ur way and we will our way.

Posted by: eastwest at November 22, 2006 12:43 PM

KM yeah i looked at it a little more last night but than my girlfreind showed up and that changed the course of my evening...

And honestly i was not fully aware of the implications of reverting to another faith from Islam..and honestly, it does make me wonder what would happen to me if i did revert to another faith from Islam although i do not allow myself to become paranoid about it. I mean i did make the mistake of telling a few bangladeshi muslims here at work that i was a new Muslim. Now they come up to me on Fridays and ask if I am going to go with them to the Mosque for Friday Jumma prayers...and the weird thing is that they are almost insistant on wanting to know why i dont want to go...it was kinda odd because my coworker asked me why all the sudden these "arabs" are looking for me...yeah i was not totally aware but i consider conversion to a religion an excerise in freedom and i will not be intimidated by extremists...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 12:44 PM

Jihadlove you really need to take care, it is very apparent that you dont know what you have done and what the implications are for both you and probably your family.

What convinced you to convert?

One more thing those new Muslims are not extremists they are just doing what Islam tells them to do.

Put simply there maybe moderate Muslims but there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Please find out more about your new found faith.

Posted by: km at November 22, 2006 12:48 PM

@eastwest...

is that true? that if i decided to go back to Christianity i would be executed by angry Muslims?

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 12:50 PM

Eastwest's claim that US Scares its citizens

Quote:
american goverment always scares their nation, before 1990 they scared americans of cold war that ussr is coming and will force u to follow communism and then with the start of new world order(USSR break down) they brought islam and telling their people ohhhhh muslims are brining sharia..

Response. Russia was, in fact, a very powerful enemy throughout the Cold War. We have documents collected by the CIA and others which are now unclassified. Particularly notable among those documents are a groupd called the "Venona Files." These are translations of intercepted Soviet communiques to its operatives in America. These are now open to public inspection and historians are learning many facts for the first time.

Many people held up as "martyrs" for free speech were in fact Soviet operatives. Even the children of the Rosenbergs who were executed for stealing and giving away nuclear secrets to Russia no longer claim they were innocent.

In addition, after fall of the Soviet Union, many historians had access to Soviet records which had previously been kept secret. Historians were able to document the horrible record of Lenin, Stalin and their successors in buildling gulags, starving entire populations in the Ukraine and building an international army of operatives opposing United States interests all over the world.

The Communist Soviet threat was no joke. The missles sent from Russia would have been 90 miles from the shores of Florida if JFK had not intervened in the Cuban Missile crisis.

One of the primary tactics of the treason lobby is to attack every action taken by American authorities to defend America and to try in every way possible to hamstring our internal and external defenses.

All Muslim immigration should be cut off and terminated immediately. It should have been cut off immediately after 9/11 yet it continues unabated. This is unprecedented in the history of nations. If freedom survives our generation, our descendents will be appalled that we failed to protect our nation in such a simply and straigtforward way.

I have supported Bush because he was the only President we had and we badly needed some kind of leader, but, I have no patience with him at this time because there is no point is sacrificing brave American soldiers in Iraq if we don't close our borders here.

Anyway, Please note that "eastwest" is ignorant and a propagandist. There are mountains and mountains of openly documents from many sources confirming intense Soviet spying, infiltration and other hostile acts against America, both internal and external.

Posted by: Athena at November 22, 2006 12:50 PM

So if being anti-Muslim is racism and bigotry, what is being anti-American, burning American flags, chanting "Death to America", etc.?

Posted by: yadayada at November 22, 2006 12:57 PM

So if being anti-Muslim is racism and bigotry, what is being anti-American, burning American flags, chanting "Death to America", etc.?

Posted by: yadayada

Liberalism.

Posted by: ShortBoard Surfer at November 22, 2006 12:58 PM

Jihadlove

Here is the first link from Google regarding Apostasy and Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Also check out www.faithfreedom.org and hear it from the horses mouth, Ali Sina is an apostate and now has to live in hiding.

My bet is that you are quite young and someone has manipulated you into accepting Islam, maybe your girlfriend is she Muslim?

Posted by: km at November 22, 2006 1:00 PM

"....get ur self a life and stop interfaring others life, stay back and just keep ur own business"

Well, lots of us will agree with you eastwest on that statement.

The west would like to be able to keep our own business, without muslims coming in here trying to change our way of life and culture, without flying planes into our buildings, using religion as an excuse for bad behaviour.

We wish we could "keep our own business", so go ahead and get out and stop interfering with others life!

Posted by: sounder at November 22, 2006 1:09 PM

They have leaders, they have long-term strategy, and we are clueless.

I applaud Tucker he did a good job, but, he is simply outgunned in the long run. The CAIR strategy has been planned for years and years. CIAR already has two Congressmen in their pocket and STILL the vast bulk of Americans are completely clueless as to who CAIR is.

Why do responsible journalists still give CAIR airtime. Why aren't they outed.

Journalists all over America covered up for the Soviet including Walter Duranty of the NYT. It is really shocking to see this going on all over again.

One weapon that we have that they fear. Freedom of thought and freedom of speech. Islam cannot survive free inquiry and Muslims know it. They ahve to shut down free inquiry and free thought before the West comes to grips with what Islam really is.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali once said to Europeans "Now that Islam is your neighbor down the street you will find out what it really is, my dear friends." She said it in her gentle and winning way of course. May God Bless Her and Keep

Posted by: Athena at November 22, 2006 1:09 PM

Muslims standing up and acting in unison (this so called praying) would cause fear in any American flying. Radical muslims and planes in general are not a good mix. This phobia is well founded and US Air did the right thing to act upon it.

As far as the Muslim legal ilk that appears in this video, it is also well established that Muslims will use the American legal system to impose their will. Look at the mosque fiasco in Boston. This was an ochestrated event planned my the inman knowing quiet well the phobia of Americans backed up by their legal (or illegal) batallion. Very few are fooled by it as more Americans are becoming aware of these Islamist stunts because they've seen it all before.

Posted by: Briars at November 22, 2006 1:10 PM

JihadLove

Run away guy. You are in deep. Please take care for yourself and your family.

Posted by: Athena at November 22, 2006 1:11 PM

CAIR is just proving my points from yesterday: Muslims see opportunity to start brainwashing Americans, playing the "race card" and using a guilt trip approach in order to further their ultimate goal of turning the United States into Amerabia.

Europe first; then the United States; then the world.

Muslims are in for a very rude awakening in the States, though, mark my words.

Posted by: Foehammer at November 22, 2006 1:11 PM

refugee,
Liberty and Safety? It appears you have already begun to trade liberty for safety. Of course you can always blame the jihadis for that but it isn’t exactly true is it? Keep giving up your rights while the guv tells you, “nothing to see here now take off your shoes and prepare to be searched”. It appears that you will eventually have neither Liberty nor Safety. Chipping away a little bit at a time, that is how it is done.

Posted by: tgusa at November 22, 2006 1:14 PM

"CAIR already has two Congressmen in their pocket and STILL the vast bulk of Americans are completely clueless as to who CAIR is".

Posted by: Athena at November 22, 2006 01:09 PM

They most likely have more than two. We just know officially of Ellison being a "peaceful one". There are plenty of Islamaniac lapdogs in Congress ready, willing and eager to do their bidding. Conyers and Pelosi are just two of many of those lapdogs. We'll soon see the others exposed.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 22, 2006 1:17 PM

Jihadlove...You are a Muslim i presume and I am one too although i am a recent convert from Reform Christianity.

You either need to have your head examined, or take KM's advice. You are already doubting...that means you have not completely Amahdinejadized...get out while you still have your own mind and skin...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 22, 2006 1:17 PM

Is it just me, or does Arsalan Iftikhar look stupid on that snapshot? LOL!

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 22, 2006 1:34 PM

At the very end the CAIR speaker claims that there are now 7 million Muslims in the United States.

The U.S. Army claims 4-5 million just 6 months ago, other estimates 6 million and CAIR 7. At this rate of population explosion, we should expect 14 million by this time next year?

"Lies, damned lies and statistics..."

Posted by: Foehammer at November 22, 2006 1:34 PM

no wonder so many of those somali muslims look sad at the mosque...their all under death threats...i am not going to worry too much i dont go to the mosk anymore so i will just fade from view...although the muslims at work i have to figure something out with them...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 1:40 PM

4-5 million? 6 million? 7 million? Figures plucked from thin air.

Here's the one I've just grabbed from that circumambient ether. The figure I claim is closest to the truth is 3 million self-identified Muslims in America, with 2 million of them being the slightly or more than slightly unorthodox (in Al-Azhar terms) followers of Farrakhan.

Posted by: Hugh at November 22, 2006 1:43 PM

When Tuck asks CAIR about its manifold terrorist connections, then I'll give him some credit.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 22, 2006 1:44 PM

Seems like Tucker is the only conservative that has the cajones to take on CAIR.. I checked Glen Beck and Oreally yesterday to see if they had the cajones, they didn't even mention the incident.

I don't even listen to talk radio but doubt that Limpballs, Weiner Savage or the rest of the morons had the verve to take on CAIR, the IMAMS or Islam in general.

But good for Tucker.. the only truly intelligent conservative pundit.. the rest are raving morons.

Posted by: Nariz at November 22, 2006 1:44 PM

Arsalan says on the video that the Imams praying was just like a Catholic saying the Hail Mary. Well, as a practicing Catholic I NEVER fly without praying the Rosary, which is made up of several prayers but mostly the Hail Mary. But none of you would ever know I was doing that because I don't do it out loud and I don't pull out my Rosary beads while I'm on the plane. I say it in my head. Imagine if I decided to stand up and start praying those prayers loudly. I would either be:

a) asked to stop, told to sit down immediately and to buckle my seat belt, or

b) escorted off the plane.

Very simple and clean. The difference is, I know that standing up and praying the Rosary in public would be rude and disruptive behavior. Because I grew up as a Catholic practicing the Christian belief of do unto others as you would have them do unto you and because my mama taught me to respect other people's feelings and also to respect authority, which in this case was the representatives of the airlines, I would never consider going against those instructions. Because Muslims are told that they are a superior belief system based on the brainwashing of their so called prophet, (who was really nothing more than a wanking, child abusing, murderous opportunist who only came to power because he was able to manipulate everyone's agreement,) they do whatever they want to whom ever they want and threaten a)physical terror in other countries to get what they want or b)psychological terror in the US in the form of lawsuits, legal reprisals, or the highly effective calling anyone who opposes them a racist.These are two mutually exclusive belief systems and, like Commmunism and Capitalism, cannot peacefully co-exist. But since Islam is not here in the United States to be anything but the dominant religion and since Muslims are willing to use taqqiya (lying) to further their goal of it being so, we who were born here gots problems!

I for one am now in love with Carlson Tucker and would even have his children if I was a bit younger. That's what we need more of around here, a man's man who will stand up and tell it like it is. Although I must admit, Jihad Watch is crawling with them, to my eternal gratitude.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 1:45 PM

Heh, looks like CAIR's Legal Director Arse Licker is trying his best to keep his cell phone from "popping out".

Posted by: Infidel_Dog at November 22, 2006 1:47 PM

Talking of morons.. I posted the above, then read the comments and up pops another Islamic pyscho..east west.. there is no end to them is there? There is no end to idiocy, ignorancy and the psychosis that is called Islam.

Posted by: Nariz at November 22, 2006 1:47 PM

In my humble opinion, Muslims praying out loud on a plane with 'Allah Akbar's flying left and right is just as inflammatory and inciteful as someone screaming 'FIRE!' in a crowded theater.

Fact is, before those planes hit the towers, the poor people in those planes all heard 'Allah Akbar.'

Before Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, and at least 20 others I cannot name all had their heads sawed off, the last thing they heard was 'Allah Akbar.'

As we watch Iraqi 'insurgent' sniper videos on CNN, before and after they squeeze the trigger, they say 'Allah Akbar.'

Before the suicide bombers' innocent victims die, I'm quite sure they hear 'Allah Akbar.'

In other words, if I'm ANYWHERE (but especially on a plane) and I hear 'Allah Akbar', I'm looking for a Muslim who's ready to die and take dirty infidels with him.

I fully believe those imams were doing it all ON PURPOSE to try to incite trouble... to test out this Democratic congress, to feel the waters, so they can ultimately get their 'To-Criticize-Islam-Is-a-Crime' legislation on.

Posted by: JenBee at November 22, 2006 1:48 PM

I wish the muslims would put their money where their mouth is and just book all their flights on Virgin Airlines. Our only recourse is to get off the plane if we see anything which makes us uncomfortable. If people start voting with their feet,even though it may be inconvenient, maybe it will have the desired effect.

Posted by: dms at November 22, 2006 1:49 PM

Nariz -- I'm surprised you didn't add Christians to your short list of 'psychos'.

Posted by: champ at November 22, 2006 1:50 PM

Allah Ackbar is becoming synonimous with Murder and hate, and who's responsible for that?

Muslims?....nah , couldn't be

Posted by: DUGGY at November 22, 2006 1:51 PM

Isabellathecrusader, you're right, it would seem suspicious no matter what creed it was being chanted on an airplane if it was done in such a way.

Oh and Tucker made excellent points: Islam is not a religion and muslims should stop playing the racist card. If a white, blonde, blue eyed dude started screaming allah akbar just before an airplane got off then he would've been kicked out too.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 22, 2006 1:53 PM

Jihadlove,

You need to be very, very careful, because these guys don't mess around.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004660.php

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 1:54 PM

Iftikhar tried to keep saying its 'racism' right till the end. He said that if anti-semitsm is 'racism' so anti anti-muslim statements since Judaism is a religion.... reaaaaaaaally?

Jews have a shared RACIAL history that goes back to before Sinai they were treated as a race because they were a race. yes there are converts to judaism but the vast majority of Jews are from a specific racial group with a shared history. That fact is so undeniable that to say otherwise would literally mean youve never been exposed to even the most basic Near Eastern history course or book or history program of any kind (quite a feat that).
While in ISLAM the are vast majority are not actually Arabs (the most populus Islamic country is Indonesian) and then there are the Indian muslims and the 32 million chinese muslims and the persian muslims (Iranian race is not arabic), and on and on.

Islam is a non racial philosophy/system of thought.

however some islamic thinkers do seem to like to present Islam as a race and a superior one as Spencer has alluded to on one report where he says "the Master race" is at it again etc.

Listen people are scared of praying muslims on airplanes or in airports because of all the things going on with jihadists its that simple. And CAIR knows it. How come nobody tackles catholic nuns in airports or Hare Krishnas with their tamborines --because like you know they dont BLOW THEIR ASSES UP!! Thats all westerners care about in terms of signaling out a group --lets be honest they dont want to die while somebody is screaming 'allah ackbar' and crashing the plane somewhere.

And Iftikhar stating that it was because they were brown? Thats grossly misleading too. Did you see how the Imams where dressed? They were in traditional Arabic robes and caps not business suits and they prayed in Arabic.

Heres my point: IF WHITE BLOND BLUE EYED english looking boys where dressed like in traditional muslim robes and praying to Allah in arabic (or even english) in a public place anywhere NEAR a plane or airport THE SAME THING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO THEM!

Honestly do you think that the girl who reported them to security would have said: "oh I see they are wearing muslim robes and praying in arabic in an obvious muslim way **BUT WAIT** they are blond blue eyed white anglo looking guys soooooo thats okay than I wll NOT report them."???

yeah right-o!

If you believe it was the fact that they were not white instead of their obvious actions and costumes then I have a small imaginary island in Greece my cousins have for sale for you-- cheap! yes yes.
come on!! lol

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 1:55 PM

Iftikhar DUDE get off the weed.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 1:56 PM

In my humble opinion, Muslims praying out loud on a plane with 'Allah Akbar's flying left and right is just as inflammatory and inciteful as someone screaming 'FIRE!' in a crowded theater.

Posted by: JenBee at November 22, 2006 01:48 PM

Amen to that!

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 22, 2006 2:00 PM

PS and if it was a 'racial' thing then brown people in business suits or regular western clothing NOT praying would have been stopped too. But they arent are they? no its obvious ISLAMIC actions not race that sets off alarms! I know there are moderate muslims who hate that fact but it IS a fact because of the jihadists. If there was a radar that read dangerous islamist from normal everyday muslim then of course the airport people would use it. They dont care if your muslim but which muslim is a jihadist? yes its a small number but who likes playing russian roulette? even with a roulette barrel that is a small percentage bullet filled?? no sane person thats who!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:00 PM

Jen Bee,

You've hit the nail on the head. Like Pavlov's dog, we Amercicans have been conditioned to respond the way we do by the very people who are bitching about it. They can't have it both ways. And even though it seems like we are controlled in so many ways nowadays, Americans will only tolerate so much before we start to fight back. It' in our blood, afterall. If we could "just say no" to the English back in the 1770's, we can do so with Islamic opportunists now.

Elias,

Your point is correct. Any surfer dude shouting Allah is great will immediately receive nasty looks and bad mental juju from other people on the plane, for the same reason Jen Bee pointed out.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 2:01 PM

This entire incident and the cair reaction is closely aligned with the Thanksgiving holiday, one of the biggest air travel periods. This seems a little too convenient to be an accident.

Posted by: Ronin at November 22, 2006 2:02 PM

ISLAMSFORLOSERS so true its sad!

actually I rather hear people shout fire!! with fire I know its nothing personal with jihadists its because Im an infidel!!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:02 PM

It looks like we have another troll on board.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 22, 2006 2:02 PM

@dms

You write:

"Our only recourse is to get off the plane if we see anything which makes us uncomfortable."

Not me. As I posted elsewhere, I will not board a plane without my half-eaten Haram Sandwich.

If a Muslim makes me uncomfortable, My Haram Sandwich will make him even more uncomfortable.

What then? I become famous. Not for nine seconds but for nine days, at least. The whole infidel world will honor the middle-aged, bespectacled man who, armed with nothing more than a half-eaten ham sandwich, managed to send the big, bad, scary, jihadis into paroxysms of panic.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 22, 2006 2:03 PM

Jihad love why leave reform christianity if your religious that guarantees forgiveness of your sins by Christ (Romans 3:23-25) by faith and leave it for a religion that guarantees nothing abouting getting saved unless you commit 'holy jihad' ??
I mean as a religious person. An agnostic etc wouldnt pick a religion but if you ARE religious why pick where you have no guarantee?

When you become a christian nobody gives you money and an expensive watch , but Jesus gives you his blood bought sacrifice is all. a little peace in your heart you know?

Jihad watch and they filmed you??? eeeeeee. not cool man.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:05 PM

TUCKER for president

Posted by: Taranus at November 22, 2006 2:06 PM

jihadlove....

They gave you head scarves? For what? Your girlfriend? Sister? Mother?

And $125? I assume you didn't ask for it. Was it because they felt you were in need? Or was it a reward for converting? (it'd be weird if it were the latter).

Re: apostasy from Islam, you might want to check out this, coming straight from an Islamic website, which among other things says....

Detailing the issue and showing some of the evidence for the punishment of apostasy, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:

"All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished. However, they differ regarding the punishment itself. The majority of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be sentenced to death.

The fact that this is an accepted doctrinal position at all gives one cause for concern and wariness. Maybe not all Muslims buy into this, but how would you discern the ones who do? On the other hand, there is no such compulsion to stay in the Christian faith, so being a follower of Christ myself, I can only wish you well as you search for meaning in Islam. Based on the above, however, I can't say whether your Muslim brethren will wish you likewise should you decide that search requires you to take a path other than the Islam you've just chosen.

Posted by: yadayada at November 22, 2006 2:06 PM

sorry I meant 'jihad love'...

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:07 PM

@yankeedoodle

" managed to send the big, bad, scary, jihadis into paroxysms of panic."

you forgot to mention "hairy"

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 2:07 PM

Is it just me, or does Arsalan Iftikhar look stupid on that snapshot? LOL!

He looks like a crazed hijacker. Now, look at those eyes, and imagine him wearing a taliban-style beard. That is the face of evil. In America, in his role as legal counsel for CAIR, he shaves his beard, and wears a suit and tie, as per jihad instruction to fit in with the infidels. In Afghanistan, he would be one of those straggly, wild-eyed, hairy, lice-infested murderous misfits. But with the same look in his eyes. The eyes are the windows to the soul. They do not lie.

Posted by: August22 at November 22, 2006 2:08 PM

Yankeedoodle & Islam for Losers,

You guys are so right. We need to fight fire with fire. We need to provoke them because if we are keeping them on their toes, they will have less time to practice Whining Jihad, and it will slow the damage done to our country long enough for us to come up with effective strategies to defeat them. If haram ham sandwiches act on Muslims like garlic acts on a vampire, everyone should arm themselves with plenty of them and eat them, very publicly, whenever a Muslim is around. Especially in the confines of an airplane.

Ronin,

Good point on the Thanksgiving connection. This is probably our most cherished of holidays here in the states and many people reflect on their lives and are kinder to their neighbor at this time of the year. It would be most fitting if I were waging a war for the soul of America to disrupt this important time.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 2:11 PM

eastwest writes:

"u guys have islamphobia, trust me u guys need psychiatrist lol"

hey schizo:

Our problem is that we know too much about the evil creed of islam, and that phony prophet and priapic pervert named mohammad.

The more we know and learn, the more we hate it.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 22, 2006 2:12 PM

@yadayada..

i dont know why they gave me $125 in cash i assume it was for converting...those headscarves were the Yasser arafat style ones...oh, and they also gave me a robe...my girlfriend thought it was weird that they gave me all that stuff...

yeah i am a little weirded out by the whole apostasy death thing...and in all honesty, this was not mentioned at the time i did the shahada...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 2:12 PM

August 22,

Actually, in the picture above Arsalan looks like he just peed his pants. Evisceration will do that, don't ya know!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 2:15 PM

Jihad Love, if they told you that in the beginning, they couldn't have snared you.

Posted by: freewoman at November 22, 2006 2:15 PM

Jihad love,

You also need to protect your girlfriend by not introducing her to any of the people you associate with at the mosque. Although, sorry for the bluntness of this next statement, they merely consider her to be an American whore and when it's time for you to marry they will encourage you to dump her and marry a proper Muslima.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 2:18 PM

CAIR's Legal Director Arsalan Iftikhar

erm.

Well being a muslim and CAIRS Legal Director i'm sure he should be aware of the term DECEPTION.

Would you like to see an example of DECEPTION?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception

This Fatwa from CAIRS website:

http://www.cair-net.org/downloads/fatwa-english.txt

This Fatwa contains koran 5.32

The "version" 5.32 on the Fatwa is incomplete,out of context and a DECEPTION.

Here is koran 5.32. in FULL:

[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

And here is koran 5.33 in FULL to give some context to the ayat above:

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

Once again, why has koran 5.32 on the Fatwa not been corrected or removed from CAIRS site?.

They have had complaints in writing and done nothing about it.

Posted by: kasper1062 at November 22, 2006 2:20 PM

Isabellathecrusader...

Fortunatly i really do not go to the mosk anymore. but it is funny that you mention that about my girlfriend...cuz one of the guys mentioned something about me marrying a Muslim woman..i told him i had a girlfreind and he asked if she was muslim...when I said no he looked at me strange..then he said something about good s*x and that was it...i am being truthfull. This guy was from africa and his english was not that good so i could not really understand everything he said...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 2:23 PM

jihadlove you dont even have to BELIEVE us just read your qur'an and hadith its in there! Muhammad said if someone leaves Islam, to kill him

QUOTE
" 1. Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260, Narrated Ikrima. Also, see Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64, Narrated 'Ali.)

more on guaranteed heaven if doing jihad:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014141.php

and here
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

-----------------

FORMER MUSLIMS TESTIFY

Jihadlove here is a link to FREE downloadable videos of two famous (now american evangelical christians) that were born and raised muslim in Turkey. They talk about their dads reaction when they left Islam and about dads duty to kill them --however this was a softhearted dad. View the whole thing free if you like --its very engrossing.

http://www.islameyat.com/english/audio/former_muslims/former_muslims.htm

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:25 PM

If we don't happen to have a ham sandwich on hand,maybe one of these would do
http://www.susbloodlabs.com/

Posted by: dms at November 22, 2006 2:26 PM

Thanks for link, dms.

I like the quote from Churchill:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
Winston Churchill

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 22, 2006 2:30 PM

"yeah i am a little weirded out by the whole apostasy death thing..."

Sadly enough, so apparently was Bashir Ahmad Tantray, as we find here http://telegraphindia.com/1061122/asp/nation/story_7033863.asp

QUOTE
'Convert’ shot dead in Valley
MUZAFFAR RAINA
Srinagar, Nov. 21: Suspected militants today gunned down an engineer, a Muslim who had reportedly converted to Christianity, at his native Mamoosa village in Pattan, around 35 km from here.

Bashir Ahmad Tantray, 56, who worked in the state’s power development department, was shot dead near his ancestral residence while on a stroll with his cousin, Ghulam Rasool Tantray, around 10.45 this morning.

“Two youths approached us to enquire whether any bus had passed by. Then, one of them came near Bashir and shot him from point-blank range,” Ghulam said.

Bashir was later buried according to Muslim rituals. Dozens participated in his funeral.

This is the first time that a convert to Christianity has been killed in Jammu and Kashmir’s 17-year-old history of militancy. No militant group claimed responsibility for the murder of Bashir, who is survived by his wife and four children.

In 2003, Mamoosa came under the spotlight after reports that many residents had converted to Christianity. Locals generally rebuff such claims in public, but some admit in private that they have changed their faith
UNQUOTE

Posted by: AJack at November 22, 2006 2:30 PM

Isabellathecrusader,

I’m sure the cair led propaganda campaign would be the same even if this happened on a cruise ship, bus or whatever but the timing and the fact it did occur on an airliner seems suspicious to me. Also it was not just any muslim. These were muslim clerics, supposed holy men who are expected to pray. Westerners tend to have a soft spot for clerics and would be more likely to feel more sympathy for them as opposed to a muslim salesman or some other profession. The math doesn’t work out either, six travelers who we can assume have traveled by air at least a few times and without incident, why now? This stinks of setup. It was an easy way to remind us of 9/11 and was probably meant to scare air travelers. It didn’t work as most of us would be far more scared to tick off our family by getting off the flight than of crazed muslims. We also have a better understanding that our security folks can keep us safe. I’m sure they rescanned everyone remaining on board, rechecked baggage all without alarming anyone, at most this was an inconvenient delay, nothing more frightening. Whatever the muslim agenda really was and whatever reaction they expected, I would consider this a failure on their part. All the flights were packed today, so much for scaring us.

Posted by: Ronin at November 22, 2006 2:31 PM

I like the quote from Churchill:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
Winston Churchill
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2

YNKDOODL2 I LOVE CHURCHILL ! I am a WWII history buff as you can tell from my handle (which applies for the current climate today too).

Churchill also said: "DESERVE VICTORY!"

The free nations of Europe, USA, Australia etc have to stand up the Allies of old have another fight on their hands that is eerily like the last one except this time the Nazism is Islamofascism and its from within.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:34 PM

jihadlove, you have an interesting story, and I don't think you are in any immediate danger; there are not a lot of murtad-killings (yet) in North America, which is where I assume you're writing from. You are right to fade out of the picture, and you've received some good advice to read up on this stuff. I'm rooting for you; I think you've found yourself in a place that a lot of new converts do...nobody at JihadWatch will try to force you to make a particular choice -- I think it is generally accepted here that your choice of religion is a private one.

Read thoroughly and make a rational decision. When you pray, pray to the One God (he knows who he is -- you needn't call him by names that presuppose that he is the God of one religion or another). Read the Koran, the New Testament, and the Jewish Scriptures (essentially the Old Testament in a Christian Bible) and ask God to help you discern where truth lies, but don't turn off your mind: God gave you a brain for a reason.

Also pray for protection from evildoers ... and abide by the dictum I once heard: "Pray as if everything depended on God, and live as if everything depends on you". In this case, take steps to ensure your own protection.

If you do end up continuing to embrace Islam, seek out those Muslims who seek peace and do not mix with radicals. There are some, although it can be hard to distinguish between them and Islamists who are simply saying fine-sounding things to gain legitimacy. While violent Jihadists are a problem there is a deeper difficulty in the non-violent but yet virulently political Islamist movement. (Read Daniel Pipe's excellent summary at http://www.meforum.org/islamist.php ) If you remain uncertain of which muslims are "safe" for a new and isolated convert to associate with, I'm sure Mr. Spencer could advise you confidentially on this matter -- he knows a good many muslims who do not advocate extremism, and probably could point out someone in your area.

I personally would prefer that you choose a different faith, but it is ultimately between you and God what you decide. The prayer/reading exercise I suggested above should help you sort this out. It certainly helped me when I was young and searching for a path to which I could commit myself (if you are wondering, today I am an evangelical Christian, though in a certain sense this is irrelevant to anything I have to say to you here).

The description you give of the response to saying the shahada is very interesting. Of course, evangelicals and others of various religions are enthusiastic and loving toward new "members of the family", and that part of the experience should be understood as more or less universal. But the gift-giving and intense group focus you describe sounds like it goes beyond.

If you want to understand what happened to you that day I would recommend reading a bit about a technique known to those who study cult behavior as "Love Bombing" (Wikipedia gives a particularly good but very brief summary). This term applies when "loving" behavior and actions are contrived in order to manipulate a person, influence their decisions or their allegiences. At the extreme it is not love at all, but an attempt to take away freedom of choice. Real love sets you free; love-bombing is designed to bind you. I think your reflective reaction afterwards tells you all you need to know.

The video-taping may have been innocent, like taping someone's wedding or other joyful experience. But it is good for you to file that piece of information away, and the warnings you've heard here ... it is possible that it will come back to bite you. Forewarned, though, is forearmed. Suppose they had videotaped this event without your knowledge, and you did something "unwise" afterwards...!

Finally, a few words of advice if you find yourself facing sticky questions. Nobody has any right to force you to declare your religious allegiance. "Are you still a Muslim?" can be met with "My religious beliefs are a private matter between me and God", or "God knows my heart", or "I answer on this matter to God, not to men". If you have converted to another faith you should honestly be able to say "I live in submission to God ... does Islam not mean submission?" There is no need to be confrontational or to feel you must lie.

Your best action is to walk away. If you feel threatened, get help right away. Especially if that video ever resurfaces in any way that you find uncomfortable ... make sure the legal authorities hear about it at once. Blackmail of the sort you could conceivably encounter (God willing it will not happen) is a criminal offense, and your concerns will be taken seriously.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at November 22, 2006 2:35 PM

FROM WITHIN: as much as CAIR would like us to believe otherwise there are violent islamic elements in the populations of all free democracies today. And their women on average have 4-6 kids each.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:36 PM

Archimedes2 I agree with you and would add for jihadlove stay away from the nation of islam!!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:37 PM

Jihad love,

Yes, I don't mean to be disrespectful my friend, but Muslims see all non-Muslim women as whores or potential converts. If you will follow Jihad Watch for the next month or so, and Dhimmi Watch which is it's sister site, you will see exactly what Muslims believe about women. The atrocities committed against women in the name of Islam are unfathomable, and you can catch many article about them usually every few days here, and these things are practiced because Mohhamad sanctioned them and they are talked about in the Koran. Things like:
1) thighing of infants, whereby a grown Muslim man uses a baby or a small child's inner thigh to masturbate.
2) child marriage. Mohammad married Aisha when she was six and entered her sexually when she was nine.
3) mens total rights in marriage and lack of women's. If a man decides he wants a new wife, he can justr bring her into the home and the present wife has no say. If he wants a divorce, he just has to say "I divorce you" three times and then he gets to take the children away from the wife and leve her destitute. That's harder to do inthe Us because of the laws we have in place but I know a guy who married his wife in Iran and after she pissed him off, he said the words, took their little boy and now she lives two states away, sees that kid only once in six months and his sister is raising the little boy.
4) sexually abusing married slave girls. Mohammad did this himself and it is recorded in the Koran.

One other thing, you said where you are from. Dont' say anymore. These guys can track you down and eliminate you, especially, I would think since you live in such a Muslim stronghold in the states. I'm praying for you that God will keep you safe and for a special protection for you from St. Michael, who already through "Allah" out of heaven.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 2:38 PM

Jihad love

I've read the post between you and the others, I am Christian and if it's okay I will say a prayer for.

Posted by: Supermaxx at November 22, 2006 2:39 PM

White airline passengers can all help end the 'racist' argument, and get free airfare, too.

The next time you're going to fly, wear your coffee filter (or a hijab, as appropriate) and just before pushback, stand up in the middle of the aisle and chant 'Allah hu Akbar' several times.

Yes, you'll be asked to leave the aircraft. Do so willingly. Tell the security folks you're new to Islam and meant no harm.

They'll be bewildered; but as a Muslim, they won't hassle you. When the interrogation is over, tell them how humiliated you feel. Raise just enough ruckus to be videotaped (remember, you're white).

Tell them you'd like to be comped for the inconvenience. Yes, they'll comply.

Posted by: PRCS at November 22, 2006 2:39 PM

I'll have a haram and cheese sammich.

Posted by: MP at November 22, 2006 2:41 PM

2) child marriage. Mohammad married Aisha when she was six and entered her sexually when she was nine.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

Isabellathecrusader is right. I just want to add this is a COMMON practice not only in Afghanistan but in Saudi Arabia. how can a holy man do it with a little kid? thats sick. It will mess up their whole lives mentally and emotionally.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 2:41 PM

@Archimedes2...

Wow thanks for that post...i appreciate it and your evident concern...once again thank you...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 2:42 PM

american goverment always scares their nation, before 1990 they scared americans of cold war that ussr is coming and will force u to follow communism and then with the start of new world order(USSR break down) they brought islam and telling their people ohhhhh muslims are brining sharia..

You forget that we have recordings of your clerics and leaders telling the world that they have intentions to impose islam on the whole world.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 22, 2006 2:44 PM

"Oh and Tucker made excellent points: Islam is not a religion and muslims should stop playing the racist card."
Posted by: EliasAlucard
------

LOL! I meant Islam is not a race :)

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 22, 2006 2:50 PM

"It didn't work as most of would be far more scared to tick off our family by getting off the flight than of crazed Muslims."

Posted by Ronin

"I'll have a haram and cheese sandwich."

Posted by MP

You guys, that's what I love about being an American non-muslim. We can't ever let it take over here because there is no laughter in Islam and you guys crack me up!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 2:59 PM

if someone could remove my post or the portion thereof that mentions where I live i'd be thankful...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 3:02 PM

Isabellathecrusader we Canadians are pretty funny too when we are not being idiotically liberal (thats a stab at our own liberal media here).

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 3:04 PM

Jihadlove,
It seems that the attention and "love" was what you were lacking.
You know that if you search out the right church, you will find what you need. Don't stop at a couple, go to churches until you find one that is alive. Maybe non-denominational.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 22, 2006 3:04 PM

"if someone could remove my post or the portion thereof that mentions where I live i'd be thankful..."

That would be wise.

Posted by: DUGGY at November 22, 2006 3:04 PM

JIHADLOVE go to the home page and look to the left email JIHADWATCH to Robert Spencer and Im sure he will have a moderator take that off for you my friend.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 3:05 PM

its on the left side of the homepage way way down the page where it says CONTACT US.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 3:07 PM

thank you allies shall win i did that...thanks again...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 22, 2006 3:13 PM

The Allies Shall Win,

Sweetie, I know you are! Some of my favorite people come from Canada!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 3:43 PM

Jihadlove no problem !

----
here is an interesting article on apostasy in Islam by Robert Spencer

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21943

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 3:46 PM

Isabellathecrusader *blush* how can I not blush when Isabella the cute crusader girl calls me sweetie? Infidel girls RULE. lol.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 3:48 PM

furthermore infidel women dont cover themselves in burquas looking like some sort of evil moving nightmare...

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 3:49 PM

no wonder so many of those somali muslims look sad at the mosque...their all under death threats

jihadlove...

Tough to say if that was the reason they looked sad. But without question, if punishment-for-apostasy (not just death, but imprisonment, harassment, fines, etc. as it is in many Islamic countries) were part of the doctrine of my belief system, I'd probably feel fearful for having any doubts about my faith, place-of-worship, congregants, practices, etc.

It's ironic that a religion that instills fear in its adherents by threatening them for leaving it would be so quick to call critical non-adherents "islamophobic". Those who fear converting out of Islam, IMO, are the true "Islamophobics" (and I don't mean "phobic" to suggest irrationality, as the term is oft-intended....only to point out that it's ex-Muslims who have genuine reason, it seems, to fear Islam).

Posted by: yadayada at November 22, 2006 3:51 PM

I've seen Tucker in action before. He likes to play loudmouth Muslims for the fool. I've seen him do Dougie Hooper and a nasty ugly Muslim leader from London-Azzam Tamimi. Tucker likes to play rope a dope with these wankers

Posted by: dennisw at November 22, 2006 3:56 PM

These muslims, who boarded the plane, and did whatever they did, did so with full knoweledge, and expectation of, the consequences.

It reminds me of a man who slips into an evevator full of people, the door closes, and then he farts.

Posted by: sounder at November 22, 2006 4:01 PM

"american goverment always scares their nation, before 1990 they scared americans of cold war that ussr is coming"

Yep, our government was the reason we were concerned about Communism. Did you know, our government is also the reason we think that grass is green? Why, without our government, how would I even know that water is wet?

"americans r ruled by freemasons their agenda has been planned since 10th century as a american u should search and findout what it is.."

Let me guess... was it an agenda to take over the world, Pinky?

Did you Mozart was a Freemason? And George Washington? And Thomas Jefferson?

Boo!

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 22, 2006 4:25 PM

i think Carlson managed an impressive balancing act of being sympathetic and polite whilst not standing for any nonsense from his guest. good work !

Posted by: M Al-Content at November 22, 2006 4:36 PM

Jihadlove:

Why is your name Jihadlove?

Folks, I think the fellow is yanking our chains.

Posted by: atheling at November 22, 2006 5:02 PM

The race-card has been overplayed by the soldiers of Allah.

One cannot ridicule them enough for using it to camuflage their perverted ideology. But that's not what our media is doing, and neither are the polit-props onto it. I have a letter here from the hon. Mr. Philip Ruddock from the Australian government, where he uses the race-card to dodge the inconvenient questions I asked of him and dives into the 'multicultural Australia' instead...

We sure have a long way to go before the coin drops...!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 22, 2006 5:35 PM

Maybe Tucker Carlson crashed and burned on "Dancing with the Stars" but he soared like Baryshnikov on this one. Good for him -- he refused to dance the Taqiyya Tango with Arsalan Iftikhar, who proceeded to dance solo and fell on his face.

Posted by: urbanIIredux at November 22, 2006 5:44 PM

The old "Racism" rants , note how "The Jews" and Iraq got brought into this and somehow the Muslim population jumped by 2 milion people since Hooper's rant from just weeks ago .

here in canada the 400'000 people that claimed to be Muslims has also jumped to 1'000'000 and not one Media outlet has questioned this.

the Psy-ops by CAIR are alive and well.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 22, 2006 5:48 PM

There is so much wrong, factually and morally, ethically on this website I am not even sure where to begin, so I will try to be as coherent in my response as possible.

1) The Imams were not praying on the plane. They had very reasonably exercised their right (Freedom of Religion) to pray prior to boarding. They were not disturbing anyone (well anyone who bothered to recognize that they were simply praying), they were not calling for “Jihad,” they were not threatening anyone, or acting in anyway ‘suspiciuos”, they were praying…when did pray became a suspicious activity in our society? One would think that in our increasingly “faith based” society this would be a good thing. What I can not understand is why the “concerned citizens” did not say something before boarding the plane, so that this could have been calmly diffused? Or even better yet, simply engage one of the Imams in conversation? What has happened to the notion of a civil society? Are we really going to head back into the era of McCarthyism and become citizen spies, willing to run to the nearest official whenever we see something that has been arbitrarily determined to be “bad”. I am appalled at the hypocrisy and the willingness to see the loss of civil liberties and the betrayal of some of the most fundamental notions of our democratic society all because “we” want to be “safe” from “them.” And frankly the very notion of whom it is that we should fear should be questioned to begin with (do any of you remember who Timothy McVeigh was?).

As for the “what would happen to Christians if” argument, I thought that was one of the things that made life in the country so much better? That we are free to practice whatever religion we like, that anyone, Muslim, Christian, or Hari Krishnas for that matter, could pray in the concourse and not be discriminated against for it. (and if I remember correctly plenty of "Christians" have carried out acts of terrorism...IRA, Basque seperatists, Fundementalist Christians...yet the sight of Christians praying wouldn't send people into paroxysms of stupidity) Isn’t that the point of a free, open and civil society? How can we claim to be bringing “democracy” to Iraq, and then deny citizens and foreign nationals the same rights protected in a democratic society here?

2) Any and all of you are more than welcome to believe and say whatever you like (Freedom of Expression), however, it would do all of you good to actually learn a little about Islam. If you want to coherently critique Islam, first you must know what it is and what it isn’t. Could any of you in good faith lump all of the sects of Christianity into one group and then state that all members of “Christianity” have this or that political belief? When you talk about “Islam” do you mean Sunni Muslims? Shiite? Sufi? Deobandism? Wahabism? Are you speaking of the Taliban? Mujaheddin? The “Arab-Afghans”, Islamists? Fundementalists? Nationalists? Are you talking about Egyptians, Saudis, Indonesians, Pakistani, Spaniards, Nigerians, Tunisians, Sudanese, Libyans, Moroccans, Algerians, Franco-Algerians, Anglo-Pakistanis, American Muslims, Bosnian Muslims? (there are more, but I will stop). Are you speaking of those who are the cultural and historical descendents of the Persians? The Turkish Ottoman Empire, or the Arabs? Are you speaking of the political rhetoric and ideologies that were partially the product of British Colonialism, or French Colonialism or American Neo-Colonialism in the Cold War era? Do you know what Sharia is? That it is always being interpreted, that it is not and has never been writ in stone? (or that frankly the Taliban and Pat Buchanan have more in common than anyone will admit) Or have you rolled all of your ignorance and biases into one great big ball and called it “Islam”

3) Finally, yes, this is about “racism.” After 9/11, many people who were in no way even remotely Muslim were subject to discrimination and hate crimes because they “look” like Muslims; Sikhs, Isreali, Lebanese, and Egyptian Christians and Jews, and others were targeted because they “look” Muslim. Meanwhile my boyfriend would never be identified as Muslim. He is, however, a 6ftish, fair-haired, fair-skinned Muslim, who was born in Bosnia (Bosnian Muslim therefore) who by the way now serves proudly in the United States Marine Corp. It is true Islam is not a “race,” but in many countries and contexts “Muslim” is. Racism in our modern world has become simply the discrimination against “others” who are defined in many different ways. The intellectual history of this notion is based in 19th century European ethno-nationalism, with the formulation of the concept of “Volk” (a term used by the 19th c. German writer Johannes Herder) who are defined by shared religious, linguistic and “cultural” attributes as a cohesive ethnic group. Race is a notoriously slippery concept: Are Jewish people a “race” or adherents to a religion? The Bosnian Muslims, who look like every other “white” south Slavs are a separate “narod” ( a “narod” is a “people” or “nation” or in our simplistic American understanding a “race” ) and defined as such both internally and externally; they are not defined as a separate religious group, and it was on the basis of their “race” that they were the victims of a genocidal war. So yes, the treatment of Muslims can be related to racism as it is in America.

If you want to talk about “Jihadists” please learn what that it is. Learn about the history of political Islamist movements (and in some cases our support for them, i.e. the Cold War era Mujaheddin). Learn about the Ikwhan movements, Deobandism, Wahabism. Learn who uses the term “jihad” and how, learn what the term actually means, learn about the long history of British, French, German and American involvement in the Middle East and what our historical relationships were and how they have informed the current political situation. “Islam” has not declared war on us or the US, but radical or extremist political Islamist movements have called for “jihad” against the West. Learn what that sentence means (I will give you one hint, “Islam” can’t declare a war, it isn’t a tangible thing, or government, it would be like saying “Communism” has declared war. Notice that when people have discussed the threat posed by the Soviets, they say “Communist Soviet”, or “Soviet Union,” not communism. Islam, like communism, is a belief system not an entity). My advice; turn off Fox news and read a book, if you want to learn about some of the history of extremist political Islamist movements read Rashid Ahmed’s “Taliban,” better yet quit worrying about “them” for a moment and learn about us, pick up Alexis de Toqueville’s 18th c. treatise on that new experiment called Democracy in America. Perhaps removing the log from your own eye will help you to be able to help your brothers and sisters to remove the splinters from theirs.

PS Jihadlove, Ok you do sound a bit lost as to your new found faith, but not all Christians would agree to go to the same church (can you picture a Holy-Roller Baptist in a Catholic church?), so my advice to you is if you want to be Muslim do more reading and start investigating the various mosques and meszids in your area, you are likely to be able to find one that fits you better than where you were going. I would suggest one near a university, where there are likely to be lots of students, with energetic "alive" ways of thinking about being Muslim in today's world and who are actively invovled in debating feminism and socialism and capitalism and Islam Unfortunately choosing to be Muslim will also mean being the victim of other people's ignorant attitudes.

Posted by: Liska at November 22, 2006 5:49 PM

Remember Mr. Hooper from CAIR admits that he reads Jihad Watch. I am sure that he would also pose or have someone pose as a blogger here.

The person or Mr. Hooper will make irrational statements and try and incite the bloggers and then when the bloggers respond negatively they 'screen capture' the comments and say 'see what they are saying at Jihad Watch'.

I for one believe that the next time muslims or imans are on a plane the passengers as a whole should break into the Lords Prayer as the plane is taxing down the runway. Or start praying out loud for the "Lord to change the hearts of these muslims sitting by us".

The muslims can't complain because they say that their prayers are their rights. Our prayers are our right. Prayer OUT LOUD for muslims IN FRONT OF MUSLIMS IN PUBLIC.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at November 22, 2006 5:49 PM

CAIR's Legal Director Arsalan Iftikhar, he looks like a deer in the headlights! my God he does not seem to know where to run! there is actually someone who is slighlty challenging him, no wonder he backed out on Robert's debate! poor babies these muslims can be!

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 22, 2006 5:55 PM

QUOTE:

yet the sight of Christians praying wouldn't send people into paroxysms of stupidity) Isn’t that the point of a free, open and civil society? How can we claim to be bringing “democracy” to Iraq, and then deny citizens and foreign nationals the same rights protected in a democratic society here?

you are comparing islamic fundamentalists with IRA 'christians' you are kidding right? Those groups have to disobey the Christian scriptures to fight while in Islam jihad is OBEDIENCE to the quran/hadith/

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:17 PM

Why does Fox news always get trashed?

Well, Liska, if you are scared of Christians, you have a problem. The most you have to worry about from them, is too much love. I have yet to hear a Baptist or Methodist or Catholic or even Pentecost, call for Jews and infidels to be killed. Not one. I don't recall in the Bible, it calling for a certain race or sect of people to be killed.

I have yet to read from the Bible that I am to be beaten if do something my husband deems wrong. My religion doesn't tell me to be ready for sex if and when my husband wants it.

My religion doesn't want me to send my children out to blow themselves up. I have yet to hear of any Christian wanting me to do that.

My religion doesn't tell me to kill innocents in the name of love.

Maybe you are new to islam. Read the horrors from the koran. Read Robert's books.

If you choose to stay in islam, don't get your feelings hurt when you find out your life and soul isn't worth crap. Islam doesn't respect the fairer sex.

Posted by: freewoman at November 22, 2006 6:24 PM

Jihad is not just some defenseive movement. JIHAD is necessary according to all orthodox schools of Islam to convert the nonislamic nations by force to Islam.
That is what Islam is at the core. To say otherwise is to not have read the full Noble Quran and hadith but to approach islam like many moderates do who do not study it. Once you study it you find yourself not opposing the radical islamic movement because you know they are not heretics to islam but purer adherrants of it (unlike other faiths like Christianity and Judaism etc where you have to basically be a heretic and not take scripture at face value in order to commit terrorism).
Muhammed was all too clear on his proscribing offensive jihad on the nonmuslim world.

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."

--------------

Unlike other religions the founder of Islam was a warlord who promised guarateed eternal life if you died fighting nonmuslims, died fighting for Allah.

Some like to take OT lines out of context and say 'ah ha!' see the jews/christans are the same as us (as if that would make it alright) but he truth is any Old Testament lines apply for specific history while the much more plentiful Islamic war teachings are universal and for all time for muslims to follow.

Besides who is constantly killing people around the world in the name of Allah? day in and day out? More have died becuase of jihad minded muslims than any other cause. That is a sad fact.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:28 PM

Sorry Liska,

Americans have every right to be vigilant and to suspect and accuse those who declare their hatred for the US, to those who are associated with and proclaim to be part of a group that brags about killing in the name of Allah, (and do not publicly denounce this behavior,)and to those who haven't hidden the fact, like Doug Hooper and Ohmar Ahmed of CAIR, that their goal is to replace the US Constitution with Sharia law.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

We used to hang people for committing treason in this country. It may be a good time to bring that old practice down from the shelf and dust it off.

Your disdainful eloquence is only surpassed by your ignorance and wishful thinking.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 6:28 PM

quote:
The ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination) defines racism as follows:
“Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”

Race therefore does not apply to a system that applies to all races but is a philisophical/relgious belief. No buddy in the US Airways would have stopped brown or black people for example if they werent acting like muslims (praying in public, the robes etc)-that is simply a fact. To state otherwise is to ignore the obvious.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:31 PM

@Liska-

Your condescending advice that the posters on this Watch learn more about Islam is gratuitous and insulting. The folks posting on this board already know TOO MUCH about Islam.

This is a hangout for infidels who have been exposed to the monstrous idealogy of Islam. We're also suffering from 911-post-traumatic-stress syndrome.

As far as the study of Islam is concerned, I am always reminded of the professor who said:

BULLSHIT IS BULLSHIT, BUT THE STUDY OF BULLSHIT IS SCHOLARSHIP.

Liska, we're scholars of bullshit...I mean Islam.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 22, 2006 6:32 PM

I have read the entire Qur'an and most of the hadith (actually the qur'an over 4 times). Its overall picture is that Islam MUSt dominate others in the world. In other religions you do not have to forcibly convert anyone --you can preach but thats about it.

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:33 PM

The Allies Shall Win,

Thank you dear! It is true, Infidel girls not only rule, we can ROCK your world!! And we know how to stand up for ourselves when we are pushed too far. And we won't apologize to some pretend victim who knows they are lying to try and get the upper hand. We have a penchant for discerning what is true, and what is BS.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 6:34 PM

"Holy-Roller Baptist" that shows that you know nothing about the Baptists.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 22, 2006 6:36 PM

I recommend the Noble Qur'an published by the Saudi presses (mine is from 1989). Its footnotes even, about jihad agree with Robert Spencer as to what 'jihad' means. The texts are very clear though.

---

The hadith so far in my reading has only provided more fodder shall we say? for this site. Sorry the truth simply cannot be hidden.
-----
Quote:

http://www.kafirnation.com/myth2.htm

The Jews and Christians were considered evil people because they rejected mohamed as a prophet of god as they knew of the true God and it was rather obvious that he wasn't a prophet sent from Him.

Jesus is the perfect example of love and tolerance

John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Muhammed was the perfect opposite:

"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone, which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)

One would think that in common parlance that to respect someone as a prophet would seek guidance in his teaching.

---

JESUS SHOWED MERCY
MUHAMMED SHOWED HATE

END OF STORY

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:37 PM

oh woes me you didnt let me pray to allah andIsabellathecrusader and thats what I like about infidel women. As for the pretend victim--who can fit that better than our 6 imams saying they were persecuted (meanwhile christians are being killed daily in muslim lands www.mychristianblood.org ).

Now in Islam..... the story re: women is different as the Quran says women are only worth 1/2 of men and are basically 'toys' (thats a quote ) for men. The christian and other faiths simply do not have that sort of stuff in it (oh yeah and we dont think marrying a 6 yearold little child and having sex with her at 9 is a righteous thing either). All Western nations are based on Christian principles thus pedophillia is outlawed --you cannot say that for the middle eastern world (not just afghanistan but saudi arabia, Iran, Indonesia, yemen and others)

http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html

---
Aeisha 9 year old child 'bride' of muhammed:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

---
refernces
THE WOMAN IS A TOY

The previously mentioned deficiencies show the woman's inadequacy as a companion for man. Her deficiency in intelligence and religion prevent her from exchanging secular or sacred ideas or participating in religious or related spheres. To what level do these deficiencies reduce the woman?

"'Omar [one of the Khalifs] was once talking when his wife interjected, so he said to her: 'You are a toy, if you are needed we will call you.'"[21]

And 'Amru Bin al-'Aas, also a Khalif, said: "Women are toys, so choose."[22]

This was not just 'Amru Bin al-'Aas and 'Omar's opinions. Mohammad himself said:

'The woman is a toy, whoever takes her let him care for her (or do not lose her)."[23]

The belief that a woman is a toy is of vital importance for the spiritual well being of a man. For according to the great philosopher Ghazali

"In the company of women, looking at them, and playing with them, the soul is refreshed, the heart is rested, and the man is strengthened to the worship of God...this is why God said: 'That he might rest in her.' (Q. 7:189)"[24]

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:45 PM

troll alert

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:46 PM

QUOTE:

Why does Fox news always get trashed?

Well, Liska, if you are scared of Christians, you have a problem. The most you have to worry about from them, is too much love. I have yet to hear a Baptist or Methodist or Catholic or even Pentecost, call for Jews and infidels to be killed. Not one. I don't recall in the Bible, it calling for a certain race or sect of people to be killed.

I have yet to read from the Bible that I am to be beaten if do something my husband deems wrong. My religion doesn't tell me to be ready for sex if and when my husband wants it.

My religion doesn't want me to send my children out to blow themselves up. I have yet to hear of any Christian wanting me to do that.

My religion doesn't tell me to kill innocents in the name of love.

Maybe you are new to islam. Read the horrors from the koran. Read Robert's books.

If you choose to stay in islam, don't get your feelings hurt when you find out your life and soul isn't worth crap. Islam doesn't respect the fairer sex.
Posted by: freewoman [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 22, 2006 06:24 PM

----

amen to that!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 6:47 PM

Oops, where did Liska go? Did we scare he/she/it off? Or did he/she/it get it's feelings hurt when my honey baby, The Allies Shall Win, blew it's cover?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 7:00 PM

I think I keep returning to this site to see what feel good about islam crap will be dished out by the trolls. Yes, I sometimes feed them but I also learn, here are a few tips:
-They have many sign ons names and sometimes different people use them.
-They always claim to "understand more about islam than we do" always with no proof.
-No discussions can happen without threats.
-We are always challenged to read countless books, articles etc (keeps you busy and off line)
-Responses are limited to changing the subject and attempts to distract.

This is what we do:
Stick to the truth and the facts.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Posted by: Ronin at November 22, 2006 7:05 PM

The way Arsalan Iftikhar argued with Tucker Carlson is consistent with the way top American lawyers usually argue in court. That is, they argue with something non-essential to the main issue, like OJ Simpson’s lawyers argued over police investigative work and the size of the bloody glove instead of who was the murder 10 years ago. That’s why American legal system is full of loopholes, which have benefited countless lawyers who know how to enrich themselves. Now CAIR and UCLA follow the footsteps of smart American lawyers and enrich their Muslim influence in America. There are many things needed to be changed besides asking Muslims to assimilate into our culture. We need to change ourselves too.

Posted by: kung fu fighter at November 22, 2006 7:16 PM

Isabella The Crusader you beautiful Infidel lady of the holy crusade against wickedness --You know that when you resist Satan he flees from you . Honestly all we did was light a little candle instead of curse the darkness.
lol.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and all my American friends! I love you people!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 22, 2006 7:29 PM

Liska,

(1) Airlines can toss people off planes for being stinky. Body odor can get you tossed off these things. In the news this week.

Airplanes can be used to for major military attacks. This means that special government regulation is appropriate for them. You have a right to make a deal with an airline for air travel, and the government has some righful domain to regulate that deal in ways pertaining to national security. If you confuse American freedom for Anarcho-Capitalism, that is your fault.

(2) You invite us to learn about Islam on account of posters sloppy speech habits; we apparently confuse Jihad movements (populated, obviously, by people) with Islam, a religion.

Sloppy speech aside, in actuality, the point of this site, as I understand it, is to demonstrate how mainstream interpretation of Islam fuels recruitment to violent Jihad movements. Listing players in the history of Islam is not the way to address this concern. The way to address is it by providing an example of a mainstream school of Islamic theology that does not advocate the killing of apostates, or the breaking of a treaty when expedient to the spread of Islam, or the forcing on non-Muslims, when politically expedient, of a choice between adopting Islam, accepting dhimmitude, or war. Your choice to list historical actors rather than do this suggests your inability to do this.

(3) "Racism in our modern world has become simply the discrimination against “others” who are defined in many different ways."

False. All you have demonstrated is that Identiy Politics has co-opted the word "Racism" in order to use the word's rightfully-negative connontations for political purposes. Great education you're getting.

Racism is unjust discrimination on the basis of race ("unjust" because considering race in something like hiring an actor for a part where the race of a character is an issue isn't racism). Taking religion into consideration when profiling to determine which people are relatively more likely to be terrorists is not racism. It is religious discrimination that some people believe is justified if carefully constrained to preserve rights, and that other people don't believe is ever justified, no matter how constrained and how many lives hang in the balance.

Yes, in the few weeks after 9/11, there was havoc and multiple brown-skinned people of various religions were attacked. People have calmed down and thought things through since.

I haven't heard of a single Hindu or Christian Egyptian or Zoroastiran pressing charges about being targeted for extra security at airports. If they are targeted for extra security because of race, and if an extra security interview is so degrading as to count as racism, why aren't they pressing charges when it happens, like many Muslims are?

(4) You talk to us about the "log" in our own eye. Jim Crow laws were on the books through all of WWII. That was wrong, but does that mean we should have avoided dealing forcibly with the people openly intending to exterminate the Jews and take over the world? The fact that one has one's own problems to work on does not negate that fact that sometimes there are even worse things to fight.

You also encourage us to read Tocqueville, on the ground that this will better enable us to locate the "log" in our eyes. I'm unsure what you are getting at. Where in Tocqueville's work does he suggest dealing with real, serious national security threats by ignoring them to focus on our own faults?

Recognizing real abuses of civil liberties and fighting those abuses on the understanding that civil liberties are vital to securing the promise of America. Executive orders for things like torture of citizen detainees, for example, if not subject to serious judicial review, are a vital threat to America. They throw off the balance of power and make it likey we will sink into tyrrany in the future. This is not the same as profiling to make better use of security screening resources, or as pulling people off airplanes that are subject to regulation on reasonable national security grounds. These guys can get off the plane, catch the next flight, and America is not scarred for this any more than it is when a stinky man gets pulled off the plane and sent on the next flight after taking a bath.

If you are actually concerned about the promise of America, and you may be, please consider the fact that failure to thwart major military attacks is as much as a threat to the promise of America as violation of civil liberties. We cannot prevent both if we are not going to be reasonable about what constitutes a serious military threat (Jihad movements have proven themselves to be such a threat, and have clear ties to mainstream Islamic theology), and what constitutes a violation of civil liberties (air travel isn't a right in and of itself, putting people through an extra interview and onto the next flight doesn't kill anyone, doesn't get anyone tortured, and doesn't even alter their plans for more than a few hours).

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 22, 2006 7:31 PM

Liska is a fool with a politically correct education, which has proven its worthlessness.

Read de Tocqueville, eh? Well not deeply enough. How about this for starters, honey?

"I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Mohammed. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself."

- Alexis de Tocqueville

By the way, dear, do us all a favor. If a Muslim man hands you a package and buys you a one way plane ticket to somewhere with the promise to follow you later, don't do it. Better yet, don't travel on public transportation at all. We'll all feel much safer...

Posted by: atheling at November 22, 2006 7:43 PM

This incident was no accident.

These imams were deliberately acting in a way to make other passengers nervous and suspicious. They did not need to pray so loudly or call "allah" repeatedly and loudly.

Either, they were having "fun" by scaring the infidels, OR they wanted to create an incident which would allow them to argue discrimination.

The goal in the latter case is to disarm the airlines and security people to give future terrorists protection from being removed because of their suspicious activities. They want us to become so PC that we will not complain of suspicious behavior. They want the airlines to hestitate about removing people acting suspiciously for fear of discrimination suits.

These are NOT innocent people!

Posted by: WillPower at November 22, 2006 7:46 PM

Yesterday I sent US Airways an email supporting the decision to remove the individuals from the plane. I also gave them my opinion of why the incident occured in the first place. I got a personal reply that my email would be referred to the proper party and a thank you.

Anyone else get a reply??

Posted by: gaelen at November 22, 2006 7:52 PM

Yes, I received a reply today (I'd emailed them last night). It was very poilte and friendly and noted that my original comments would be forwarded to their Marketing Communications department.

Posted by: kaffirchick at November 22, 2006 8:22 PM

Al Saheed Al Kuffar,
Good post. You could have also pointed out that most of us have heard the muslim party line often enough we could write it and do a better job than most of the trolls who visit here.

Posted by: Ronin at November 22, 2006 9:53 PM

Liksa...troll or not, doesn't matter; I'm happy to welcome you here.

Insofar as things being wrong "morally and ethically", as you say, "at this site", I presume you mean in the comments section, not in Mr. Spencer's excellent analysis. Yes, well, this is not a monastery. People shoot from the hip, they are occasionally rude, sarcastic, even offensive. It's a blog comment page, for heaven's sake, lighten up. Yes, people could be a little more polite, and yes they could make an effort to be respectful where respect is due. But you needn't expose yourself to the banter if you don't like it.

As far as the other point: things that are "factually wrong" at this site. If you refer to the comments sections, see above. If you refer to Mr. Spencer's stuff, please distinguish between his wry, witty and sometimes flip commentary on the news of the day and his actual analysis. Read his articles, or his books, and if you have something to say, comment about them as you like -- it's a free world, and you're unlikely to be edited out; these comments are largely unmoderated.

As for the rest of us, it would be nice to have a PhD in Islamic Studies before writing pithy bits to blog comment pages, but sorry, it won't happen. For many here the site is simply a cathartic way of dealing with pent-up frustration with Islamists and a media that often just doesn't "get it". Fortunately as we're seeing, a few in the media are finally waking up.

While we all have busy lives, many of us here are actually taking time to learn about Islam. You'll see a wide range of knowledgeability because not everyone is, or should, be in the same place. As important as the threats are, it is not necessary to be able to write an essay on the difference between the various sects to understand the nature of the threat and that there are an enormous number of different types of muslims.

You suggest that we all read about Islamism, jihadism and so on. Excellent idea, if only from the perspective of national security. Fortunately we've all already begun, with a most excellent starting point: Spencer's well-researched books and articles. From there we find a great many other resources, and I assure you, ignorant as we may be on many points, we are learning very rapidly; we do not lack for things to read.

As you will point out, even Mr. Spencer is not "officially qualified" in this field. Well, you don't have to point this out because he regularly makes a point of saying so himself: he has educated himself as any intelligent person might do, and he only reports what he has learned.

He has an open challenge to those who wish to criticize him on this basis: show where his reporting and analysis is wrong. You see, he does not make this stuff up, and he does not even claim to original commentary on Islamism, etc. He only allows the Koran, Hadith, Sira and the various Islamists and Jihadists to speak for themselves -- he just reports on what they say.

Perhaps you think your background superior to his in these matters. Perhaps it is. Then, wonderful! Bring us your insights, you have an eager audience of people here who are interested in the truth about Islam. But, you will not find many people here who are qualified with on-paper credentials or accolades or how many books you've written. We are interested in the facts and reasons you have for us. Just a word of warning though, some of us have pretty sensitive B.S. detectors.

I am quite sure Mr. Spencer would be willing to engage in reasonable dialogue with you about points of contention in his work. Just don't waste his (and our) time with generalizations about how unqualified you feel his is, or labels like "islamophobe" etc. He is either right or wrong, and this can be established by dealing with the facts and documentations he provides for his analysis.

If you are indeed knowledgeable about these things, you should have an easy time of it. You'd be breaking new ground. So far Spencer's detractors haven't gotten much farther than baseless accusations, slander, petty name-calling and threats.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at November 22, 2006 10:08 PM

atheling,

Excellent quote from De Tocqueville. While his Democracy in America was obviously an exercise in constructive criticism, his sentiments about Islam you quoted show a sober pessimism about anything positive to construct out of Islam -- and the reflexively defensive denial typical of moderate Muslims and reverts, such as Liska, will not be conducive to a constructive reformation of Islam as long as they dig in their heels and don't knock that chip off their shoulder.

Posted by: remote_control at November 22, 2006 10:20 PM

u guys have islamphobia, trust me u guys need psychiatrist lol

Posted by: eastwest

And we need A WHOLE LOT MORE OF IT!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 22, 2006 10:23 PM

We should all collaborate to deflect the islamist threath!

Posted by: Al Saheed Al Kuffar

We are my friend, we are. islam has a big problem, in the past is spread faster than warnings could travel. Now we have global communication, this site and ones like it are growing faster than islam. We are slowly pushing them back.

Posted by: Ronin at November 22, 2006 10:37 PM

gaelen

I received a personal note of thanks for my support. U.S. Air is a good line which we can thank islam for damaging. I didn't say ruin because U.S Air is still operating. muslims couldn't add air to the tires of a 737, let alone build one.

Posted by: pismopal at November 22, 2006 11:00 PM

kill !!!!
thats a proof moron poland, check or afghanistan are they america's state??? duhhhhh NO what a dumb r u guys the contractor of world to decide what u want or what u dont..get ur self a life and stop interfaring others life, stay back and just keep ur own business

Posted by: eastwest
'

Seems to me it's YOU that needs to step back e/w. Hank happens to be an American and you quite clearly are NOT! Step back to Paki-land where they lead the world in "pig sex" and in "goat sex" Google searches :-) enjoy!

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 22, 2006 11:07 PM

It is unsettling to me to see these muslims groups act this way...i mean, we all have an interest and a responsiblity to protect the American value of freedom of religion, and america is the best friend any of us have in the excercise of this freedom.

Jihadlove...

Posted by: jihadlove

If you really loved America you wouldn't go under the name you're going under. I think even Mr. Spock would agree that's logical.

Posted by: germaninamerica at November 22, 2006 11:09 PM

A similar incident in Malaga airport, involving two Muslim students, back in August was almost certainly a set-up

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012908.php

- whatever their ostensible eplamation it seems they want to make the infidel look bigotted, ignorant, prejudiced and frightened. It also makes them look like victims and weakens security if it helps in a campaign against religious profiling.

Posted by: wallyUK at November 22, 2006 11:20 PM

Ok I got to quit giggling long enough to write this. I have no idea what the hell a troll is, I "went away" because I have a family and life that I love deeply, so I went off to have cocktails and good conservation with them and play with all the new babies. I am not, by the way either a mole for CAIR, or a Muslim. What I am shouldn't matter, because I believe in judging people by their behaviour, not their religion, or "race" ect ect., but I am roughly speaking an agnostic. Which I think indicates that not to many people read these blogs closely, because a lot of you simply assumed I was a recent convert. I am not and in fact I am the product of an Irish Catholic upbringing, so trust me when I say, I have heard christians talking about killing in the name of god.
As for learning about Islam, I would still advise people to read widely and often, this is a critical issue for our modern world. I am sorry but being able to quote the Quran does not make a person knowledgable about Islam. I can quote the Bible but it doesn't really mean much unless I work to understand how different groups have interpretated this, or applied, or how interpretation has changed over time, or was influenced by the political, cultural and economic contexts.
I may as I have time participate in this blog, but I am a PhD candidate (although not in Islamic studies) so I don't have the kind of time you folks seem to. And I think I would prefer to get involved in conservations with folks who are intent on helping to improve and continue a civil society and Human rights. It was good for a laugh though. Thanks.

Posted by: Liska at November 22, 2006 11:36 PM

Wally UK,

Here in America people make fun of Rednecks for the same reason. But those guys will give you a tow if your car stops on the side of the road, help you fix it if it doesn't work and offer you a sweet iced tea if it's hot. And when they're finished they'll get back to cleaning their guns and flying their flags.

Most Americans I know are so sick of the victimhood that was ushered in about four decades ago. And we just don't want to listen to that cat screeching call to prayer, or to have a bunch of imams in their purdy dresses muckin' up the works when we've only so much time and we're trying to get home for the holidays. If you've ever spent any time in an American airport when a flight has been delayed several hours or cancelled all together, it can get pretty ugly. Good luck to the next set of imams who pull this garbage. They won't even know what hit them.

And BTW, this is a good time to bring this up with family members: to find out what they thnk about it and to educate them as to why they did it and how they are inching there way into making their beliefs our own. Ask your family members if this was acceptable behavior, if they are okay with being the victims of the Muslim's victimhood and what they think should be done about it. These silly instigators may be responsible for a mass awakening in the American community and will have created just the opposite effect of what they had intended. Oh my gosh, wouldn't that be so cool!

Good night everybody, and Happy Thanksgiving to all!!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 22, 2006 11:38 PM

The guy on the right (of Tucker Carlson) appears to be trying to look innocent and hurt by the anti-imam sentiment. Islam is not a race, but if it serves them to use as such, they will. Why? Because they know we abhor racism. Islam must be stripped of its cover of "religion," and exposed as an ideology--one that is evil. There is no hope of reform, from without or within. The core is rotten.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at November 23, 2006 12:01 AM

Liska wrote :

" I am sorry but being able to quote the Quran does not make a person knowledgable about Islam. I can quote the Bible but it doesn't really mean much unless I work to understand how different groups have interpretated this, or applied, or how interpretation has changed over time, or was influenced by the political, cultural and economic contexts. "

Well when you see a Christian Burning a Witch at the stake or Beheading people in the name of God and you can supply a Verse or Quote to support it, i'll say Kudos and acknowledge your point, cause that's what this site is Doing About Islam , and since Muslims DO seem to take the Quran LITERALLY i see your comparison as weak.

Posted by: DUGGY at November 23, 2006 12:18 AM

Liska:
You are interested in talking only with the academic logheads like yourself who cannot tie their own shoes but arrogantly look down on the workingman as common scum.

What evidence of action do you need to see that Islamism is not the Religion of peace that its made up to be. I suggest taking a look at the Sudan and Somolia for one or how woman like yourself would be treated in Saudi Arabia.

I too attended a University and know that the paper of your Phd degree is about as worthless as the paper hanging in my toilet.

Posted by: Briars at November 23, 2006 12:22 AM

Enjoy the giggles sweetie. I had a similar view coming out of college. I’d advise losing the pretentious tone before you strike out into the free enterprise system though, the realities of humanity have a tendency to be slightly more apparent in the real world.

And a closing though from God;

Good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. (4:34)

Hope you enjoyed the cocktails with your friends.

Posted by: limes at November 23, 2006 12:29 AM

Either it is "racism" card or me-the- poor-victim-oppressed-denied-opportunities litany. Sheer obdurate refusal to take a look at themselves.
Thank God, at least some plucky ones are out there ,unwilling to put up with such whining.

Why cry in such high decibels Allauakbar particularly while engaged in most unGodly acts? Is their 'God' short of hearing?

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 23, 2006 12:34 AM

Liska, I thought you were Muslim because of your one-sided advice to JihadLove. When someone is questioning his own religion, unless one shares that religion and therefore has a vested interest in his choice, one typically gives the guy space to figure it out on his own. You didn't do that; that's fine, but understand why it made you appear to be a troll. It isn't about care in reading, it is about inferences regarding human motivations.

It isn't something to giggle over, it isn't that big of a deal. This site has unmoderated comments, and attracts many trolls. That is all.

I can certainly understand being too busy to check for replies to your post, but if you do have time, checking back to insist that you are not a troll, while refraining from addressing any of the questions and comments on your argument, doesn't make sense. Even Ph.D. candidates get Thanksgiving off, as you've demonstrated with your lengthy first post.

For the record, you haven't addressed:

- How you know whether the men prayed before or after entering the plane. This issue is disputed and there are varying accounts. You state your opinion as fact.

- Why you believe that taking religion into consideration in decisions equals racism, even when religion has a significant relationship to the decision and even when the decision does not involve denial of civil liberties.

- Why you believe lists of places and movements within Islam somehow negate the issue of whether or not all mainstream interpretations condone dhimmitude, inferior status for women (as witnesses in trial, in whom they may marry, in how much they inherit) and, when politically expedient, jihad against non-Muslim countries.

You say you would rather spend your time working with people to protect human rights, and you say that as if we aren't such people. I doubt you really are interested in human rights; you are interested in talking to people who already agree with you about issues that have already been widely declared problems. You appear not a whit concerned with serious threats to human rights from novel sources.

Well.

Enjoy your beloved lifestyle in a way that the babies at your family get-together, and my future children, might not be able to.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 23, 2006 12:47 AM

"Enjoy the giggles sweetie. I had a similar view coming out of college. I’d advise losing the pretentious tone before you strike out into the free enterprise system though, the realities of humanity have a tendency to be slightly more apparent in the real world."

She's in the humanities or social sciences, and is a True Believer capable of constructing complete sentences. She will not be hitting the real world, she'll be tenure track.

Your tax dollars at work.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at November 23, 2006 1:01 AM

Back again.

Here are a few articles for the graduate student, Liska, to inspect at her leisure and then get back to us ignorant yahoos.
BTW, Phyllis Chelser was once a graduate student, too.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20373
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/014150.php#comments
http://www.kidnappedchristiangirls.org
http://www.disastercenter.com/terror/Al_Qaeda_Manual_Eighteen_LESSON.htm

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 23, 2006 1:06 AM

Liska, watch this Video http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=842219646390515565&q=
and tell me that it's just a few Fringe Muslims or that Violence is not advocated . the video shows the Genocide towards Kashmiri's by Muslims. Hindu's who are for the most part Peaceful people and have lived in that region for 500 years are systematically being wiped out and told to leave their Homeland by MUSLIMS .
the Video is one of hunfreds that are out there. do you even know what you are talking about?

Posted by: DUGGY at November 23, 2006 1:10 AM

Mrs; I think you've got it nailed. We should define a phenomenon called the Academic-Academic complex.

Posted by: limes at November 23, 2006 1:16 AM

Oh. Another academic. Liska, you need to ask for your money back because so far the education you've had sucks. You got ripped off big time, honey.

Here's a quote from another wise man with whom you probably have only a nodding acquaintance:

"An industrious farmer occupies a more dignified place in the scale of beings, whether moral or political, than a lazy lounger, valuing himself on his family, too proud to work, and drawing out a miserable existence by eating on that surplus of other men's labor which is the sacred fund of the helpless poor."

-Thomas Jefferson

Have fun at your "cocktail party", lazy lounger.

Posted by: atheling at November 23, 2006 1:25 AM

Could any of you in good faith lump all of the sects of Christianity into one group and then state that all members of "Christianity" have this or that political belief?

Some folks have gone even further than that, lumping all sects of Christians, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais, Zoroastrians, and other non-Muslims into one MASS group, deeming them "unworthy" to co-mingle with Muslims....if anyone has logs in their eyes, it's these guys. Perhaps the 6 imams were experiencing a bit of what-goes-around-comes-around? Still, it's fine if you think folks on a blog need a little educating about Islam. But if you're gonna be consistent about telling folks to remove logs out of their eyes so as to see more in the "other", you best start with these folks who go beyond blogs to make discrimination *** national policy *** that affect millions, doing it all in the name of Islam, encouraging other countries to adopt similar forms of segregation, and hence making them, IMO, a bigger problem than a few dozen anonymous commenters on an obscure website. But if you don't think this is necessary to address and think blog commenters are the bigger problem, then perhaps you're not as serious about "helping to improve and continue a civil society and Human rights" for all as you say you are.

Posted by: yadayada at November 23, 2006 1:28 AM

cair has had top peaple busted i understand for basically abusing this very tolerant country like it or not islam is not a race it is a scoicl economic religious system and i for one am getting very tired of cairs antics every time a muslim breaks the law i am a quaker and if i stood up on airplane and started to loudly pray and not sit down when asked i would expect to be removed as the other pasangers would be nervous yes in a western tolerant you have the right to pray but considering the current wave of terrorist attacks on 9/11 were carried out by MUSLIMS it was MUSLIMS ON THOSE PLANES AT THE CONTROLS THAT HIT AND KILLED ALL THOSE PEAPLE in allahs name believing that because there leader bin laudin has declared jihad
against the great Satan as he calls the U.S.A.in his last message he gave the warning that Muhammad 9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.9:6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not
said to give to all non muslims befor attacking them muslims have been invaded ing .
jewa have a concept like jihad in the torra but have not acted on it since the king david and the closeest christains have to it is the crusades that were a responce to MUSLIM actacks on carrivans of pilgrims that were peacefully traveling to the holly land that ended up with there good being taken and being enslaved by MUSLIMS as booty if the muslims had not been raiding the pilgrims carivans there would not have been a crusade by thier actions the muslims brought on them selfs

and today its muslims who are going on jihad in the balkins in Afghanistan and in iraq and Africa to spead islam weather the peaple there want it or not even cair has leaders who have said they would like to see sharia law here with the quran being the highest atthority and islam being the national religion that would mean the end of fredooms we take for granted so is it any wounder that given what has happened that people on a airliner would get nervous if a group of people got up and started to pray loudly in aribic or any other language why could they not have called the atendant over told her were muslims and its time to pray please reasure any pasangers that get neverous what we are just doing our daily prayers and sat quietly and said thier prayers that would have shouen courtesy to there felow passanger unless they were tring to create a incident that they could create a fuss over and have cair cry raceisim when islam is not a race grow the hell up
\ http://voiceofdharma.org/books/jihad/ch1.htm

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at November 23, 2006 1:40 AM

cair has had top peaple busted i understand for basically abusing this very tolerant country like it or not islam is not a race it is a scoicl economic religious system and i for one am getting very tired of cairs antics every time a muslim breaks the law i am a quaker and if i stood up on airplane and started to loudly pray and not sit down when asked i would expect to be removed as the other pasangers would be nervous yes in a western tolerant you have the right to pray but considering the current wave of terrorist attacks on 9/11 were carried out by MUSLIMS it was MUSLIMS ON THOSE PLANES AT THE CONTROLS THAT HIT AND KILLED ALL THOSE PEAPLE in allahs name believing that because there leader bin laudin has declared jihad
against the great Satan as he calls the U.S.A.in his last message he gave the warning that Muhammad 9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.9:6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not
said to give to all non muslims befor attacking them muslims have been invaded ing .
jewa have a concept like jihad in the torra but have not acted on it since the king david and the closeest christains have to it is the crusades that were a responce to MUSLIM actacks on carrivans of pilgrims that were peacefully traveling to the holly land that ended up with there good being taken and being enslaved by MUSLIMS as booty if the muslims had not been raiding the pilgrims carivans there would not have been a crusade by thier actions the muslims brought on them selfs

and today its muslims who are going on jihad in the balkins in Afghanistan and in iraq and Africa to spead islam weather the peaple there want it or not even cair has leaders who have said they would like to see sharia law here with the quran being the highest atthority and islam being the national religion that would mean the end of fredooms we take for granted so is it any wounder that given what has happened that people on a airliner would get nervous if a group of people got up and started to pray loudly in aribic or any other language why could they not have called the atendant over told her were muslims and its time to pray please reasure any pasangers that get neverous what we are just doing our daily prayers and sat quietly and said thier prayers that would have shouen courtesy to there felow passanger unless they were tring to create a incident that they could create a fuss over and have cair cry raceisim when islam is not a race grow the hades up
\ http://voiceofdharma.org/books/jihad/ch1.htm

Posted by: islamakapigeaters at November 23, 2006 1:42 AM

Liska, speaking as one who actually has read the Quran, and the hadiths, I find your open-ended dialogue about them deceptive. You have utterly no idea what they contain, or to what extent the people of this forum, or more particularly Robert Spencer, know of them, and you admit to no knowledge yourself. You claim the issue is about race, when very clearly it is not. Is Christian then synonymous with "white"? Why?

It is entirely possible to "lump together" those who believe in the Quran, or the shahada, or sharia, as I think even you would accept that this article is core to islam. And that very Quran also dictates some of the most atrocious concepts imaginable: whatever any diverse selection of Christians might or might not accept as canonical, the words of their Prophet do not contain the call for war - period.

Approaching islamic societies at universities would all be very well, save that such groups are essentially the MSA, which themselves have a less than stellar representation on the issues of human rights and equality.

Strangely enough, I was a PhD candidate once too, and not in islamic studies, and today I am far more. Why not take some of your own advice and accept that not everyone who actually learns a little about islam is so deeply convinced of its ecumenicality? Or, even further, refrain from straw-man group bashing and ad hominei and actually discuss, issue by issue, the issues you seem to think are of such easy explanation. It always strikes me that no one seems ever able to critically interpret islam in the eyes of muslims, save those that already love islam. Why is that? And is such an attitude fair?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 23, 2006 2:26 AM

This arsalan iftikar is so wantonly and deliberately rambling ("deflecting" as Robert Spencer observes often). And INFINITELY boring, insipid. Why not leave America and such Infidel coutries for good and settle down in "ultra religious" (thanks to Americaningermany!) saudi arabia.

Posted by: Crows&Cows at November 23, 2006 4:06 AM

Dear Liska,
I didn't find your initial comment offensive, as some others on this thread found it. Even if some of what you said was offensive, I thought you made up for it through the quality of your thought and writing, though I disagree with many of the points you made. If you want any additional citations and sources for statements I make below, don't hesitate to ask.

You point out the truth that there are diverse kinds of Islam. But you seem to go from that to an unsupported conclusion: that there is no significantly distinctive unity of any kind underlying all that diversity. True, each individual Muslim is to be treated as sui generis, a unique individual, not merely a member of a group. In that sense, your conclusion is correct. But I have always distinguished between Muslims (who may be moderates and often have limited knowledge of the Qur’an and Sunnah because the Qur’an is recited in seventh century Arabic), and Islam itself, which does have some degree of underlying unity, a unity that in several respects is extremist, and more so, I suggest, than the other major religions, east, west or south.

Fjordman references a three-year scholarly study that came to the same conclusion:

"In Denmark, linguist Tina Magaard concludes that Islamic texts encourage terror and fighting to a far greater degree than the original texts of other religions. She has a PhD in Textual Analysis and Intercultural Communication from the Sorbonne in Paris, and has spent three years on a research project comparing the original texts of ten religions. [Says Magaard:] 'The texts in Islam distinguish themselves from the texts of other religions by encouraging violence and aggression against people with other religious beliefs to a larger degree. There are also straightforward calls for terror. This has long been a taboo in the research into Islam, but it is a fact we need to deal with.' "

There is much diversity in Islam, and one should not make assumptions about individual Muslims, but Islam, in most of its varied incarnations, surely does have some fairly general characteristics, such as the cultural DNA contained in the central documents of Islam: the Qur’an, hadith and sira.

But leaving aside debates about the violence of Islam, there is the problem of Shari’a law, which amounts to a kind of totalitarianism, one that seeks to spread itself everywhere, as urged in the Qur’an. Where Christianity has always had a certain tendency, derived from numerous passages in the New Testament, to separate the things of Caesar from the things of God, Muhammad became Caesar, he became the theocratic ruler of a state.

Did you know that all four of the main schools of Islamic law prescribe the death penalty (sometimes life in prison) for apostasy from Islam?

Did you know that the statistics at Freedom House (which each year gathers data on civil liberties and political rights in every nation in the world) show that the group of Muslim-majority countries is the most reactionary in the world in terms of civil liberties and political rights?

Perhaps you’ll suggest that has nothing to do with Islam. And I'll admit establishing causation in such a complicated historical setting is no simple thing. But the Qur’an and hadith and sira contain much that runs aggressively counter to civil liberties and political rights, and little that clearly supports such rights and liberties.

Part of the problem is that Chapter 9 of the Qur’an is deemed by most Muslim scholars to have been the last chapter Muhammad channeled, and thus the final word of Allah. Chapter 9 contains the famous verse of the sword, other violent verses, and commands the subjugation of non-Muslims. Because Chapter 9 is considered the final word of Allah, it is often deemed to have cancelled earlier, more tolerant verses (“no compulsion in religion”). This is known as the doctrine of abrogation or canceling, a doctrine directly also from Allah, i.e., expressed in verses in the Qur’an. Because of the central documents of Islam, for me it strains credibility to entertain the idea that Islam is not a major causative factor behind the poor human rights situations in most Muslim-majority nations.

Of course, how Muslim-majority nations live is in a way no business of mine. But by mid-century, because of various demographic trends that have been widely noted by many analysts and observers, significant parts of Europe will become majority-Muslim. Russia, too, is trending majority Muslim by mid-century. And I suppose any person who cares about liberal democratic societies should look on those demographic trends with concern.

You point out that Christians have committed terror. But did you know that Islamists each year kill more people than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined? (see http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm)

Did you know Islamic terrorists kill more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years? (see http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html)

Did you know more civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11 than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland? (see http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm)

Did you know that thousands of people, around the world, have died at the hands of Islamic terrorists after 9/11? That is true even if one excludes from the total the Islamic terror in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years.

Did you know that in several hadiths considered canonical by most Muslim scholars and clerics, Muhammad urges the killing of people who leave Islam?

I am open to discovering that I have misread and misunderstood Islam. But I see no a priori justification for what your first comment seems to assume: that all religions are about equally benign or malignant. The reality seems to be that, on the contrary, religions exist along a broad spectrum, from almost totally malignant to almost totally benign, as well as in the whole range between extremes. At some point along the spectrum, a religion becomes what people often mean by a “cult” – i.e., a dehumanizing, deindividualizing machine. There are degrees of cultishness.

There are millions of lovable Muslims, but their lovability is inversely related to the degree of their adherence to the totalitarian aspects of Islam. Unfortunately, those aspects are not peripheral to Islam, though it might not be impossible for Muslims to reject them and bring about an Islamic reformation. But because the totalitarian aspects of Islam are rooted in the life of Muhammad and in the Qur’an, large-scale reformation looks exceedingly difficult. In any event, sweeping the totalitarian strands of Islam under the rug will only make the clash of civilizations grow worse. Healing reformation only stands a chance if people are willing to look at things as they are and call them by their right names. Salman Rusdie has been excellent on that point lately.

One truth, I think, is that anyone who supports Shari’a law, knowing what it is and what it says, is a beast. A human beast, but a beast. People must wake up to that more and more. Such human beasts must be dealt with in accordance with civilized and decent standards, but also without illusions.

Posted by: traeh at November 23, 2006 7:09 AM

Traeh,

A very well articulated post.

I dont think we will see Liska again.

Posted by: km at November 23, 2006 7:20 AM

To km:
Thanks, glad you liked it.

True, she might never see it.

Posted by: traeh at November 23, 2006 7:28 AM

TO Treah

but others will see it! The archives on here are kept forever and people do searches find an article and read the whole thread. you help the whole article by adding to it a well articulated defence in the comments section for future net surfers to see!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 23, 2006 10:10 AM

What I posted on my own blog (http://jillosophy.blogspot.com/2006/11/call-me-islamophobe-please-seriously.html) is what was obvious to me when first hearing about this WIN WIN SITUATION FOR THE MUSLIMS: THEY DID THIS PURPOSELY SO THAT THEY COULD CLAIM RACISM/XENOPHOBIA/ISLAMOPHOBIA. They are putting us in the position of either being labled as such OR... THE ONLY OTHER CHOICE WE CAN MAKE IS TO DO THE DHIMMI THING AND ALLOW THEM FREE REIGN AT ALL TIMES, ALL PLACES AND PLACE THEM ABOVE REPROACH. JILLOSOPHY SAYS; CALL ME AN ISLAMOPHOBE! PLEASE!

Posted by: jillosophy@yahoo.com at November 23, 2006 12:15 PM

Liska -

Have you seen the documentary called "OBSESSION"? And have you seen the DVD offered on Jihad Watch entitled, "ISLAM: What the West Needs to Know"?

Posted by: champ at November 23, 2006 12:25 PM

Jihadlove:
Go to my post here where I profile several reformed muslims' websites and naturally, provide links: http://jillosophy.blogspot.com/2006/11/this-blog-is-dedicated-to-websites.html

Posted by: jillosophy@yahoo.com at November 23, 2006 12:25 PM

Liska said he is studying for a PhD. I believe so. Judging his tone, he is certainly have a

PhD = Pretty hot Dick

Posted by: k f master at November 23, 2006 1:14 PM

Could any of you in good faith lump all of the sects of Christianity into one group and then state that all members of "Christianity" have this or that political belief?

I'm not sure the point of this Liksa. Do you think any of the serious posters here, let alone Robert Spencer, is doing this with Islam? We're not as ignorant as you appear to believe. I, for one, have many muslim friends and I know that they fall on all points of the political spectrum. This is the whole point of using a term "Islamism" instead of "Islam". We do distinguish between the religious dogma and some of the principal political strains that are associated with it. In fact, this whole site is devoted to exploring this connection.

Anyway, it's very easy to stand on the sidelines and take potshots at the players. It's not quite as easy to engage in point-for-point debate. Most of us are less interested in academic philosophical nonsense (even me; I do have a PhD and have taught at a major university for many years -- I have little patience for academic chauvenism ... forget about jingling your coins; show me the money) than in factual and practical information about a large and looming problem.

You did make one point that can be examined in this way: the 6 Imams claim not to have prayed on the plane. But apparently the detail that they prayed on the planes came from the Imams' own statements, which were quite detailed. For example, although there were 6 Imams, they claimed that only 3 of them stood up to pray.

Why only 3? We'll probably never know the answer, and it really doesn't matter if it was 6 or 1 or even if they didn't pray but only said they did. The point is that this is their own story. So the question is not "why is the press inferring details that make the Imam's behavior appear worse than it actually was?", but "Why are the Imams changing their story as coverage on the case progresses?"

It may come out that most of the details of this story, by commentators of all stripes, have been screwed around into something they are not. Let us wait until the investigation is over, and the stories of the Airline staff, security staff, other passengers and the Imams are correlated. There is an offchance that then we will actually get a true picture of what happened there.

At this point the "facts" we're dealing with are mere "sound bites". But at the moment, your assertion that the Imams did not pray on the plane appears at variance with a clear reading of the story as it has come to us, unless one puts undue weight on the Islamic apologist organizations like CAIR and the revised story of the Imams (i.e., after they had opportunity to be advised by such organizations).

If the Imams did not pray on the plane but only before boarding, but their behavior was such as to arouse suspicion, as charged, then it makes little difference in the case. The only point really worth discussing was whether the behavior of the Imams in some way justified their treatment. If the actions of airport security were not warranted, then let's deal with it, but let's not expect the security people to sit on pins and needles wringing their hands over whether something is "suspicious enough" to risk offending someone's culture, when it is their job to protect the public by making split-second decisions based on incomplete information and their best evaluation of people's behavior.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at November 23, 2006 1:30 PM

I'm confused -- I thought that Liska was a she, not a he.

Posted by: champ at November 23, 2006 1:35 PM

Archimedes2,

This is the whole point of using a term "Islamism" instead of "Islam".

Speaking of lumping together, perhaps you ought not lump us Jihad Watchers together as agreeing with you that Islam is not the problem, but only some surgically detachable, kakophemistic "ism".

Posted by: remote_control at November 23, 2006 3:21 PM

I thought Tucker Carlson did an excellent job. These Muslim spokespersons aren't very original: they all seem to be quoting from the same "Muslims are victims" document. That makes it easier for anyone who is paying attention to stop them. The key is that the journalist or debater has to be paying attention and actually give a hoot.

Posted by: Josephine at November 23, 2006 3:56 PM

@americaningermany

Would somebody tell this guy that "jihad" and "love" simply do not go together.

I mean, a more ridiculous name doesn't exist does it?

Jihad Love...the struggle to love brother...its the struggle to love...and no, I am not pulling anyones leg about what I shared about My islamic journey...

Posted by: jihadlove at November 23, 2006 4:26 PM

Archimedes2,

This is the whole point of using a term "Islamism" instead of "Islam".

Speaking of lumping together, perhaps you ought not lump us Jihad Watchers together as agreeing with you that Islam is not the problem, but only some surgically detachable, kakophemistic "ism".

Got your point, remote_control; it's well-taken. Let us at least agree upon the different semantic categories even if not all of us can find a distinction between those who hold to the two? I think Spencer's work is a challenge to the existence of orthodox islam that is not islamist, and I'm interested in whether any muslim scholars can rise to this challenge.

There are, on the other hand, many who call themselves muslims who reject the islamist political ideology. Of my muslim friends, of which I have many, believe the majority fall into this category. But not by far. Are these non-islamist muslims unfaithful to the core teachings of islam? It certainly appears to be the case, but not being a muslim myself I do not think it is my place to say this. I prefer Spencer's approach of asking them to explain their position.

Or Daniel Pipe's approach of dealing strictly with the problem of Islamism -- if Islam is indeed surgically attached to the political philosophy, then it may suffer as our culture learns to grapple effectively with the cancer of Islamism. Let the muslims work this side of things out amongst themselves.

Posted by: Archimedes2 at November 23, 2006 5:15 PM

Archimedes2,

"I think Spencer's work is a challenge to the existence of orthodox islam that is not islamist, and I'm interested in whether any muslim scholars can rise to this challenge."

I don't think this is accurate. In my estimation, Spencer's work is a challenge to Muslims to show whether there exists an orthodox Islam that is not extremist. So far, as Spencer has noted repeatedly, they have not been able to show that. Until such time as they are able to show that -- not only to us but more importantly to their fellow Muslims in such a way as to begin to actually reduce Muslim extremism globally -- we must assume that the actual "Islamists" are the palatable Muslims, like your friends, not the worrisome ones.

As for your Muslim friends, try challenging them about Aisha, or 4:24 (the divine sanctification of slaves and sex-slaves), or 4:34 (the divine sanctification of wife-beating), or the violent suras 8 and 9. If they dance around these questions, then they are at best passive co-dependent enablers of their viciously violent brothers & sisters, and at worst they are deceiving you. Or, perhaps, they will begin to bristle and lose their temper, and the mask of their "friendship" will fall.

(And, of course, the detection and determination of whether they are dancing in response to such questions would involve a grasp, on your part, of what Muslim dancing constitutes. There are many people of good will who have Muslim friends who even if they agreed to try to challenge their Muslim friends on such questions, would not be able to detect the dancing in the responses, and would come away mollified with the sugarcoating deflections.)

Posted by: remote_control at November 23, 2006 6:45 PM

I personally know 4 of the 6 imams that were detained. I have found three of them to be quiet, reserved and downright gentle. The fourth can be obnoxious. Having seen these men on the job, with their families, and active in the muslim and non-muslim community,I feel confident in saying that they would endeavour not to draw extra attention to themselves in a public space.

I am not making a blanket staatement about muslims, nor am attempting to refute blanket statements. Am simply declaring that at least half of these specific men (i.e. the ones I know) are working hard to be Americans, openly and privately condemn terrorism, and conduct themselves in a quiet and dignified manner.

Posted by: FreeArizonan at November 23, 2006 7:08 PM

Eastwest, you are a bit too simplistic in your characterizations of Americans. Believe it or not, we are not sheep who are easily manipulated by our leaders. We often rear our free thinking heads up and surprise those in power. The type of culture you describe is more likely to be found in the Muslim world. Arabs are continuously being told by their religious and political leaders that Israel is evil, the US is Satan, Islam is being attacked from all sides, women are becoming Westernized, etc.

It is good to criticize a lack of education. But to pretend that Americans are the only ones in the world who are uneducated is pure nonsense. I have heard many things from the Islamic world that are astoundingly more ridiculous than anything coming from the West. Why don't you criticize all forms of being uneducated. America is just the tip of the iceberg, my friend.

I'll agree with you that Americans do not fully understand Islam. We understand by what we see in the media and by the actions of prominent Muslims. Perhaps it is not our duty to change our ways based upon what we see and experience. Perhaps it is the duty of all Muslims to make a better impression on the rest of the world.

Posted by: lawriter at November 23, 2006 7:26 PM

@ eastwest...
btw, the Russians haven't given up...

Speaking to the Politburo in 1987, Gorbachev remarked:

"Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about glasnost and perestroika and democracy in the coming years. These are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal change within the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and let them fall asleep."

Gorbachev is not alone in his views. There are still forces in Russia (as well as China) who would love to see America brought down.

Posted by: CaptainGrevious at November 24, 2006 1:07 AM