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And you may ask yourself
This is a secular state?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large Catholic Church?
And you may tell yourself
This is not equality of rights!
And you may tell yourself
This is not a European state!
Letting the days go by/let the Sharia hold me down
Letting the days go by/Christians meeting underground
Into the Blue Mosque again/after the Pope is gone
Once in a lifetime/Christians meeting underground.
Same as it ever was...same as it ever was...same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...same as it ever was...same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...same as it ever was...
(Thanks to David Byrne and Co.)
"A tense time for a papal visit: Turkey, which doesn't recognize the Roman Catholic Church, is still rankled by Benedict's comments on Islam," by Tracy Wilkinson for the Los Angeles Times, with thanks to Morgaan Sinclair:
ISTANBUL, TURKEY — To reach Turkey's most important Roman Catholic church, a visitor must scour a traffic-choked street to find the metal doors, walk down a flight of stairs, cross a courtyard and finally step into the consecrated basilica.Inside the Holy Spirit Cathedral here, the lights remain low until a minute before evening Mass, and then reveal frescoed ceilings with gold-trimmed arches, 22 crystal chandeliers and blond-marble columns. On this night, 14 worshipers dot the pews.
In the Turkish capital, Ankara, the only Catholic church is even more discreet: It is marked simply by a French flag.
Why do they have to cower and hide in modern, forward-looking, European, secular Turkey?
When Pope Benedict XVI travels to Turkey next week, he will be making his first trip to a predominantly Muslim country at a moment of diplomatic fragility.He also will be traversing some of the most ancient and revered milestones of Christianity, in a land where Christianity is disappearing and where non-Muslim minorities complain of systemic discrimination, harassment and violence against them.
Why are they disappearing? Why are they systematically harassed?
It is a complex agenda. The pope's main purpose is to meet with the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of the world's 250 million Eastern Orthodox Christians in a show of ecumenical solidarity. But he must also use the visit to attempt to repair the damage from comments he has made that cast Islam in a negative light.Among Turkey's nearly 70 million Muslims, reaction to Benedict's visit ranges from disinterest to intense anger. A man opened fire early this month on the Italian Consulate in Istanbul, telling police later that he wanted to "strangle" the pope. A nationalist gang called the Gray Wolves is staging regular demonstrations protesting the pontiff's arrival.
Among the estimated 100,000 Christians who live in Turkey, there is hope that Benedict's presence will cast light on their difficulties.
The Roman Catholic Church is not legally recognized in Turkey. It functions largely attached to foreign embassies; its priests do not wear their collars in public.
Why isn't it legally recognized?
Most Christians in Turkey are of the Armenian, Greek and other Orthodox denominations, and although most of these are recognized in the Turkish Constitution as minority communities, they face severe restrictions on property ownership and cannot build places of worship or run seminaries to train their clerics.
Why do they face severe restrictions on property ownership? Why can't they build places of worship or run seminaries to train their clerics?
Such hardships make it almost impossible for Christians to sustain and expand their communities, advocates say. The Greek Orthodox, for example, have dwindled to no more than 3,000, just 2% of the community's size in the 1960s.
Why aren't they staying in this modern, forward-looking, democratic nation?
Fueled by a vitriolic, and growing, potion of nationalism and Islamic radicalism, spasms of violence have led to the killing of one priest this year, the beatings of two others and the burning of a Christian prayer center. Christian tombstones are often vandalized and property frequently confiscated by authorities.Turkey has come under repeated criticism from Western human rights organizations and the Vatican for its failure to promote religious freedom. Turkey is an Islamic but secular country; in reality, this means that all religious activity, including mosques and imams, is controlled by the government.
So then all this must be laid at the feet of the government.
"Obviously, more needs to be done to promote religious freedom for all denominations," Ali Bardakoglu, president of Turkey's powerful Religious Affairs Directorate, said in an interview. But he defended the government's treatment of minorities, contending that Christians and other non-Muslims do not face serious problems.
He knows better.
Bardakoglu was one of the most emphatic critics of Benedict after the pope delivered a speech in Regensburg, Germany, in September that denounced Islamic violence and quoted a medieval Byzantine emperor who disdained Islam and its prophet, Muhammad. Adding insult to injury, as far as many Turks were concerned, the emperor was defending Constantinople, cradle of Orthodox Christianity, against the Muslim conquest that gave the city its name today: Istanbul.
Why is the conquest just fine, but the defense of the city by Christians not fine? Because from the point of view of Islamic supremacism, Muslims own the city by right. Their conquest was not aggression; the valiant Byzantine defense of the city was aggression.
Remember that the next time an Islamic apologist tells you that Muslims may only fight in defense against aggression.
Bardakoglu said the pope was welcome in Turkey despite the speech, which touched off outrage throughout the Muslim world. And although he said he accepted Benedict's subsequent explanations, Bardakoglu did not appear completely appeased."It is unfortunate that there are circles within Western society that attempt to blacken the name of our religion and are infected with Islamophobia," he said. "The role of the Vatican and the pope should be to help fight stereotypes. Rather than open debate, they should be seeking to heal wounds."
Bardakoglu could do a great deal to combat "Islamophobia" by granting Christians full equality of rights in Turkey, and moving energetically against persecution and harassment of Christians.
In a remarkable gesture, the pope will meet with Bardakoglu, the country's top religious figure, at his ministry, a modern, imposing building on Ankara's outskirts, on the first day of his Turkey visit. Bardakoglu's directorate commands a huge budget and oversees all of Turkey's imams.Originally, the Vatican expected Bardakoglu to call on the pope at the Vatican Embassy, as protocol would have dictated. But the Turks refused. After a series of negotiations, the pope agreed to go to Bardakoglu. "It is a gesture of goodwill," a senior Vatican official said.
After all, humility is a virtue in the Pope's religion, not Bardakoglu's. But this will be understood, of course, as a sign of submission.
The pope's controversial presence in Turkey represents a balancing act for the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, which regards itself a vital bridge between the West and East, a way for Westerners to deal with a modern and democratic Islam. But it also cannot appear too cozy with a pontiff who, in the view of many, is not fond of Muslims or Turks.Erdogan is not scheduled to receive Benedict, citing a previous commitment to attend a NATO summit in Latvia on Tuesday and Wednesday. And there is no plan for the prime minister to see him off when the pope departs Dec. 1.
Both the Vatican and Turkish officials said this was not a snub, but Erdogan told visiting reporters in Istanbul last month, "You can't expect me to arrange my timetable according to the pope."
Of course. After all, how many divisions has the Pope?
In case anyone doesn't realize it, of course this is a snub -- and an acknowledgment of the power of the jihadists in Turkey: Erdogan dares not meet with the Pope. But the idea that he can't rearrange his busy schedule to fit in a meeting with someone as umimportant as the Pope is laughable.
The frictions are rooted in history. The Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region for more than six centuries, was relatively tolerant of Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims. But before and during World War I, Western powers collaborated with Christian and other minorities to bring down the Ottomans. In the carnage that followed, as many as 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered, a similar number of ethnic Greeks expelled and 1 million Turks deported from Greece.
It's all the fault of the Western powers, you see. In real life, however, the Ottomans only began to grant equality of rights to non-Muslims with the Tanzimat reforms of the mid-19th century, which they adopted under Western pressure.
The 1923 Lausanne Treaty founded the Republic of Turkey and recognized minorities. But deep mistrust persists, and even today among ardent nationalists, Christians are seen as a potential fifth column."It's a kind of preemptive intolerance: Don't let it flourish because it might take over," said Mustafa Akyol, a writer and expert on interfaith relations. "Everyone is afraid of something."
Akyol, a Muslim, said he once wrote a column advocating that the museum of St. Sophia, or Aya Sofya, in Istanbul be returned to its original use, that of a church. The response was harsh: He was threatened and castigated as a "secret Greek." The pope is scheduled to visit St. Sophia, built in the 6th century as a Byzantine church and converted to a mosque in the 15th century by the Ottomans.
Akyol is right, and courageous to call for this. Why shouldn't the Hagia Sophia be restored as a cathedral, if the Turks really believe that all religions should be given equal rights? In its present desacralized and appropriated state, the Hagia Sophia is an international symbol of jihadist aggression and Islamic supremacism. What better way for the Turks to show that they really don't endorse these things than to allow the great cathedral to become again just that -- the great cathedral it was meant to be?
The mere rumor that the pope might say a prayer at the site has led to a bit of hysteria. Islamic newspaper Milli Gazete, in a front-page commentary last week, lashed out at the government for permitting the "Crusaders" to plan to bless the former church in a brazen attempt to "revive Byzantium."
Would that it were so!
For their part, Turkish officials have sought to minimize the pontiff's main mission on this trip: to worship alongside Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, head of the world's Orthodox Christians. The coming together of the two religious leaders is meant as a bridging of the 1,000-year-old rift between the two ancient branches of Christianity.
It is fantasy, but it would be a consummation devoutly to be wished if they gave each other Holy Communion and announced the end of the schism. The theological issues between them are minor but intractable; perhaps only a bold move by two courageous men could make this happen. In this day of crisis Christian unity is needed more than ever, as well as cooperation between Christians and all others who are threatened by the global jihad.
Such frictions notwithstanding, Turkey, compared with many Muslim countries, is relatively hospitable to non-Muslims.
Oh, I feel so much better.
But its failure to make more progress on freedom-of-religion issues has been an important stumbling block in its years-long campaign to join the European Union.
As it should be.
It is EU pressure that has nudged Ankara along in easing some of the restrictions on minorities; for example, a Protestant group in Istanbul has for the first time been allowed to open a church."The EU reforms give people a sense of hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel," said Greek Orthodox Father Alexander Karloutsos. "It's been very dark here."
May the Pope's visit not create a new Christian martyr, but instead bring a little light into that great darkness.
And you may let Turkey into the EU
And you may tell yourself
My god!...what have I done?
Posted by Robert at November 25, 2006 8:58 AM
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The Roman Catholic Church is not legally recognized in Turkey. It functions largely attached to foreign embassies; its priests do not wear their collars in public.
how on earth could the EU ever entertain the thought of Turkey being allowed to come into the EU? it seems the EU has set the bar so low for human rights in Turkey, a cockroach could not go lower! The European elites need to be tossed over board!
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at November 25, 2006 9:06 AM
"Such frictions notwithstanding, Turkey, compared with many Muslim countries, is relatively hospitable to non-Muslims."
--
That line gave me a good chuckle. State of denial anyone?
The ugly truth about Islam is everywhere and we have 10's of millions hellbent on ignoring it. Someone ask the Saudis next if they would mind if the Catholic Church could erect a new chapel in Mecca to serve the 1 Christian hiding in the sewers there....
The world is so constantly worried about impressing and appeasing the Muslims while they spit on us even here in America, make constant demands and accusations, victimize others while at the same time always playing the victim and the outcome looks like France. Congratulations World -- Muhammad must be laughing from Paradise as he eats grapes.
Posted by: Foehammer at November 25, 2006 9:20 AM
David Byrne's other songs tell it as well:
Psycho Killer, Burning Down the House.
"Psycho killer,
Quest que cest
Fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
Run run run run run run run away"
"Close enough but not too far, maybe you know where you are
Fightin fire with fire ...
Some things sure can sweep me off my feet
Burning down the house"
Il Papa in Constantinople is fire with fire, while psycho-killers fire guns at church icons and hit priests instead. Sick psychopaths, burning down the house.
Take back Saint Sophia.
at November 25, 2006 9:27 AM
Once in a lifetiiiiiime! Oh, sorry, did I sing that out loud?
The more I study the countless interpretations of the nature of Jesus and the controversies surrounding those interpretations I become convinced it resulted unintentionally in new/but old ways of thinking and argumentation. Categories were viewed as overlapping, exclusive, or a little bit of both. Definitions were parsed, words examined, and in the long run Christian culture became more adept at thinking. Such debates reintroduced Greco-Roman logic and reasoning.
And good luck proving any of the arguments beyond a reasonable doubt, or even with clear and convincing evidence.
Posted by: Beagle at November 25, 2006 9:33 AM
How are they going to provide enough security for the Pope in Turkey?
I'm sure the little minions of islam are plotting their jihad and martyrdom.
Posted by: freewoman at November 25, 2006 9:44 AM
Freewoman:
"As I walk through the Valley of Death
I will fear no evil"
Hopefully the Truth melts the minions of Death.
Posted by: Briars at November 25, 2006 10:06 AM
Within the religious world, especially Christianity, the West doesn't recognize its roots and therefore this is a similar reason why people don't "get" anything about islam. It's not a wonder that Mr. Spencer is a Greek Melkite Catholic. Being eastern orthodox, I consider this the same as my religion, really indistinguishable when it comes down to it, and "catholic" (in union with the See of Rome)only by political affiliation through the centuries. The point is, if Christians in the West realized that Christianity was first in these lands where islam has been for quite some time now, they'd have a lot better understanding of not only Christian history, but of islam as well. Of the 60 million christians that were in the holy land areas (formerly of the Byzantine Empire) in 1960 these were all eastern (orthodox, syriac, maronite, melkite, etc.) and they had been going through "dhimmi" status for years. The eastern orthodox have known and written about the motivations of islam for years! Look up Theodore Abu-Qurra, St. John of Damascus (particularly harsh), and the hesychast defender St. Gregory Palamas --- 8th to 14th century accounts.
Noticeably, this was evident in the Laura Ingraham interview of Spencer and Lefkovic in which Ingraham shows her lack of familiarity of where people are coming from ("Catholic vs. Protestant, Protestant vs. Catholic" quote). The western Christian, obviously the protestant, but the american Catholic as well, in general, has NO IDEA about the first 1000 years of Christianity or the Byzantine Empire. If only cursory study were to be done, they would realize that the Eastern Christians have been dealing with the same intolerance for every century islam has existed, and most noticeably, have fled to America largely in exile to be able to continue in their traditions as the first christians, albeit large distances away from their homelands.
Posted by: Palamas at November 25, 2006 10:24 AM
You must have had a good time with this.
Question: where can I download the song, so as to then sing your lyrics correctly?
Can anyone help?
Posted by: Hugh at November 25, 2006 10:30 AM
The Quran explains the reasons that so many Turks oppose Christianity.
Here is a sample of some texts from the Quran that inspire Turkish Muslims to despise Christians:
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
Turkey is not a secular state. Turkey is a country that has violated basic human rights. Turkey continues to restrict freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Turkey is a corrupt country where democratic principles are rejected.
Turkey is simply not ready to join the European Union.
Europeans would be foolish to admit the dysfunction of Turkey into its own tent.
Posted by: Johnathan at November 25, 2006 10:35 AM
Robert,
The Talking Heads riff was hilarious, and your questions exactly the ones that need asking.
Great post.
Posted by: Zeno at November 25, 2006 10:40 AM
I hope you're right , Briars.
at November 25, 2006 10:40 AM
Hugh:
You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack...
Posted by: Beagle at November 25, 2006 10:45 AM
First Alan Bennett ("Love Among the Lentils" etc.), now Robert Spencer.
David Byrne must be very proud.
Posted by: Hugh at November 25, 2006 10:53 AM
Beagle --
Thank you. I watched the performance, and then, in an understandable excess of enthusiasm inspired by that viewing (5 minutes, 38 seconds)-- especially that little dance he does, and the arms in the air -- I went out on the front porch to provide the neighborhood with my own rendition of the song-and-dance. Several times running.
Apparently some neighbors did not fully understand and called the authorities. Or at least I assume that is what happened, because a police car, siren wailing, has just pulled into the driveway, and right now I can see from the window that an officer with a determined look on his face has just gotten out of the police cruiser, and is even now coming up the walk. Excuse me. I must go out and explain.
Posted by: Hugh at November 25, 2006 11:07 AM
Definitely my favorite "Talking Heads" tune. That was their peak. Produced by Brian Eno. "Speaking in Tongues" is good but a notch down from "Remain in Light" w/ "Once in Lifetime"
Islam's motto is "remain in darkness" by worshiping a dark prophet and a dark god
Posted by: dennisw at November 25, 2006 11:11 AM
Hugh,
In Florida it's called the Baker Act. You should be fine so long as you only hit yourself in the head with your hand and avoid bruising.
Posted by: Beagle at November 25, 2006 11:13 AM
Hugh, it's the 'thought police' coming up your steps. :)
at November 25, 2006 11:13 AM
Incidentally the "Koran" tune was cut off the recently reissue of "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" Due to fear of Islam. That album was a Byrne-Eno tryout for the "Remain in Light" album
Posted by: dennisw at November 25, 2006 11:16 AM
Beagle--->> Thanks for the youtube link!!! Fooking A!!!!
Posted by: dennisw at November 25, 2006 11:17 AM
'But he must also use the visit to attempt to repair the damage from comments he has made that cast Islam in a negative light.'
Why should he? What has he said that isn't true? Why does he have to crawl back and apologize for simply saying the truth?
I am so sick of the bullying of these people. *When* are we going to start fighting back against them? When?
Posted by: Mo at November 25, 2006 11:26 AM
l think Hugh's neighbours have too much time on their hands, and the police need to do real police work. good thing l dont have close by neighbours. good dogs and shotguns come in handy. good thing l work and live in a muslim free zone.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 25, 2006 11:29 AM
Well, I showed the officer the Talking Heads performance of the song on YouTube and then he decided to join me on the porch so that we both, more or less in synch, offered our respective, simultaneous emulative versions of what he and I had just seen. This particular policeman reminds me of the police chief on The Simpsons. He drove away a few minutes ago. After one final, solo, particularly frenzied, version right out in the middle of the driveway -- take that, nosey parkers of the neighborhood -- I have now returned to the house. ButI may go out again later; on Saturdays I try to have both a matinee and an evening performance.
Those neighbors are in for a treat. If only they had the right frame of mind.
Posted by: Hugh at November 25, 2006 11:37 AM
Islam = Fear
no music
no singing
no thinking
no love
no compassion
no fun
no freedom
no innocence
no beauty
no theatre
no dancing
no art
no wine
no health
no education
no knowledge
no truth
no spirituality
no God
How to destroy Islam? Use all of the above over and over and over again. It kills the Fear. Make those sick Muslims face their fears over and over again.
Kill their fears = No more Islam.
Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at November 25, 2006 11:39 AM
The really pathetic thing is that by Muslim standards, Turkey really is a modern, forward-looking democratic state.
Posted by: Karl Pov at November 25, 2006 11:49 AM
We can see that the hadiths say that Jerusalem will be captured by the Muslims. Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammad 'Arif, commenting on the above tradition, said:
The Mahdi will be victorious and eradicate those pigs and dogs and the idols of this time so that there will once more be a caliphate based on prophethood as the hadith states... Jerusalem will be the location of the rightly guided caliphate and the center of Islamic rule, which will be headed by Imam al-Mahdi... That will abolish the leadership of the Jews... and put an end to the domination of the Satans who spit evil into people and cause corruption in the earth, making them slaves of false idols and ruling the world by laws other than the Shari'a [Islamic Law] of the Lord of the worlds. (Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammad 'Arif, as quoted by Joel Richardson, "Antichrist, Islam's Awaited Messiah", 2006)
http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/al-mahdi.html
at November 25, 2006 11:59 AM
If I have to choose between 80's music and Islam, I think I'll take Islam. Allahu akbar! Now, how does the shahada go again?
Posted by: tvdog at November 25, 2006 12:13 PM
Had it been 40 years ago, any foreigner visiting Turkey and Istanbul in particular, would have been surprised not to find any veiled woman or woman wearing burqa on the streets except maybe in the slums around the city. Moreover, there were nice coffee shops and restaurants by the seaside in Bosphorus where one could be served alcoholic drinks without any restriction whatsoever. Unfortunately, over the years as a result of mass migration towards big metropolitan centers, coupled with the increasing nefarious influence of the parties such as Welfare party founded by some cracked islamist called Erbakan islamic fundamentalism has been on the rise. On the other hand, extreme right wing parties such the Nationalist Action Party founded by ex-colonel Alparslan Turkesh (who had been trained in the USA) used-quite skillfully islam- as a counterpropaganda against the left and the marxists. The Grey volwes operate as the youth organization under that party. Their members are generally of lowly classes with poor education and pathological loathing of anything linked to the west particularly to the christianism. These thugs have been linked with many political assassinations in the past. Prior to attacking Pope Jean Paul, Mehmet agca had murdered a prominent Turkish journalist known for his moderate views. Agca himself used to be an active member of the Grey Wolves and he was helped to escape from the prison in which he had been detained. Unfortunately, the CIA also contributed to the rise of islam as a measure to contain the leftist movements in 1970-80 period. On that account, the successive US governments have been largely liable for the rising islamist and panturkist movements. Considering the latest remarks of the US ambassador over the military's worry about the rise of islamism as a number 1 threat, I don't think they have changed their position. Keep on with the work, you morons !
Posted by: Icarus_Project at November 25, 2006 12:20 PM
Yup...this is the same Turkey that the US constantly shoves into the unwilling arms of Europe, the same Turkey that the US constantly supplies with all its high tech weaponry so that Turkey can threaten its Christian neighbours - Greece, Cyprus and Armenia, the same Turkey that the US and Kissinger in particular defended when the British Dhimmi's (who incidently weren't Dhimmis at the time) wanted to defend Cyprus after Turkey invaded in 1974, the same Turkey who now uses US made weaponry against the Greek Cypriot majority on the island, this same Turkey who reciprocated with 'love' for the US by refusing to allow the US to use their country during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and whose populations tend be highly anti American - talk about unrequited love. I guess the US doens't mind this type of love though - it's the same unrequited love shown by their other mistress Saudi Arabia, who churns out the thousands of Kamikazes each year, hell bent on destroying the west. I guess Europe is not alone in stupidity that abounds amongst the ruling elites - the US too has its own bunch of fools - the only difference is the US does not have a trojan horse within its borders that could take over within the next few decades - Europe does, and it is the US who is facilitating this trojan horse through their love affair with Turkey.
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfidel at November 25, 2006 12:27 PM
Robert! I have always admired your determination and the courage in exposing the dark side of the islam and the jihad in particular. But if you sincerely believe that the EU will let Turkey in someday, then you must be off your rocker!. Turkey's EU membership is a dream, or more likely a taquiyya with two parties. The Eurabians may have been fooled in the past by the mass of muslim migrants mostly from their former colonies or Germany may have neglected the social and cultural implications of the incoming "GastArbeiters" from Turkey in the hassle of rebuilding itself from the ashes of WW2. But, they are no fools to accept a country among themselves, a country with traditions and cultural structure being entirely different from their own.
Posted by: Icarus_Project at November 25, 2006 12:36 PM
We should all greet the great Al Mahdi with the same irreverance as the Three Stooges did in one of their spoofs:
The Al Mahdi is portrayed as some lust craving Arab out to kill the stooges.
Curly dresses the part of a harim dweller with veil and all. He keeps taunting the arrogant Arab by calling in a high pitched voice:
"Mahdi ha ha! Mahdi ha ha!"
The Arab has eyes for Curly and as he tries to get his horny hands on him, Moe and Larry hit him over the head with a pipe.
I wish I could remember it all. I never thought this work of art would have so much signifigance in my later life.
Posted by: Briars at November 25, 2006 12:46 PM
"The western Christian, obviously the protestant, but the american Catholic as well, in general, has NO IDEA about the first 1000 years of Christianity or the Byzantine Empire. If only cursory study were to be done, they would realize that the Eastern Christians have been dealing with the same intolerance for every century islam has existed, and most noticeably, have fled to America largely in exile to be able to continue in their traditions as the first christians, albeit large distances away from their homelands."
Posted by: Palamas
When my ancestors left their homelands and arrived in North America, they seem to have left their families and histories behind to begin new lives and new histories. Of course, this was before the internet, fast and easy "snail mail" and even long-distance phone calls, so they were cut off from the past.
My ancestors probably didn't come here to escape religious persecution, so perhaps it was not so important to them to teach about the history of the church in the old countries. History started anew when they landed in North America.
For those who did come here to escape religious persecution, I think it's possible that their descendants are more familiar with the history of their churches. However, they might belong to smaller religious groups, such as the Mennonites here in Canada.
At church, most Protestant children get Sunday School and adults get sermons. In the secular school system, there is no teaching about our religious history. It seems that the only way for people to learn about the history of Christianity is to get some books and study on their own, unless they take it in university.
Posted by: Josephine at November 25, 2006 1:02 PM
"May the Pope's visit not create a new Christian martyr, but instead bring a little light into that great darkness."
Amen to that.
Thank you, Robert Spencer, for the article and your comments.
Posted by: Josephine at November 25, 2006 1:03 PM
The term Armenian genocide hides to most people that it was a genocide whose victims were Christian.
"According to sources, in 1914, before World War I, there were an estimated two million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. The vast majority of Armenians were of the Armenian Apostolic faith, with a small number belonging to the Armenian Catholic and Protestant denominations. While the Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia (also called Western Armenia) was large and clustered, there were large numbers of Armenians in the western part of the Ottoman Empire. Many lived in the capital city of Constantinople."
"In 301 AD, Armenia adopted Christianity as a state religion, establishing a church that still exists independently of both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox churches, having become so in AD 451 as a result of its excommunication by the Council of Chalcedon."
"The Armenians have, at times, constituted a Christian "island" in a mostly Muslim region. The Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, had close ties to European Crusader States. The religiously based sympathies that some Armenians presumably held for Imperial Russia provided the pretext for the genocide of 1915–1916 by the Ottoman Turks."
at November 25, 2006 1:04 PM
Because the West during WWI and the League of nations after WWI did nothing about this, or the pogroms in Russia during WWI and the Russian Civil War, Lenin and Stalin got the idea they could kill millions and get away with it, and they did.
That gave Hitler the idea that he could get away with it.
Then Stalin started up again after the war and Mao somewhat later.
The Armenian genocide was a key genocide done by Muslims against Christians that undermined the League of Nations. This allowed the success and extreme acts of the dictators. The Left in particular bears responsibility for doing nothing in reaction to these genocides and still not admitting that they were of Christians by Muslims because of their Christian faith.
This still undermines the credibility of the West today. It makes Western elites look like they don't care about non-elite people, even ones who are seemingly tied to them by religion, ethnicity, etc.
Because of this Princes Bandar and al-Turki and King Abdullah don't think they have to take Cheney or Bush seriously.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 25, 2006 1:17 PM
I enjoyed this post very much and, as Battle_of_Tours pointed out, Psycho Killer also comes to mind.
I'm not sure that Benedict will make it out of there alive. I hope he will have the opportunity to say what needs to be said - and that isn't wound-healing nonsense.
Hugh's imagination is wonderful, perhaps, at times, disturbing, but I would appreciate him if he were my neighbor.
As much as I lack confidence in the EU, I doubt they will admit Turkey.
Posted by: InfidelWench at November 25, 2006 1:18 PM
I remember that episode Briars. But to be fair, Curly was giving him the come on and throw in a few "unk unks" to boot, well, the mahdi just didn't have a chance now did he.
Posted by: William The Crusader at November 25, 2006 1:19 PM
Does anyone have a link to the Robert Sencer interview this wednesday evening on the Michael Savage show??
Looks like it was a very good segment,Savage asking the questions and Spencer articulating some very informative answers...and with a verbal agreement to work together on a new project against "sensitivity training" imposed upon US companies by the islamic 5-th column.
Michael Savage has a weekly audience of 10-12 million extremely loyal listeners ,he has anger in his voice and fire in his belly...meantime,Spencer has the knowledge about islam and the ability to articulate it like nobody else in today`s media.
These two working together could become the wake up call factor for the american people,to the dangers of islam.
at November 25, 2006 1:23 PM
Originally, the Vatican expected Bardakoglu to call on the pope at the Vatican Embassy, as protocol would have dictated. But the Turks refused. After a series of negotiations, the pope agreed to go to Bardakoglu bad move it makes the pope look like a dhimmi it is long past time for islamic fashist like Bardakoglu to admit that islam does NOT have a right to trample over the rights of crhistians and if the turkey wants in the eu one of the conditions should be reconition of the cathoilc church and the return of the Hagia Sophia and its recosacation as a church or the convesion of mosques in the west to churches on a one for one basis for every temple and church taken by islamist and turned into mosques and no more mosques built in the west untill churches are built in moslem countrys
Posted by: islamakapigeaters at November 25, 2006 1:26 PM
Beagle
"The more I study the countless interpretations of the nature of Jesus and the controversies surrounding those interpretations I become convinced it resulted unintentionally in new/but old ways of thinking and argumentation. Categories were viewed as overlapping, exclusive, or a little bit of both. Definitions were parsed, words examined, and in the long run Christian culture became more adept at thinking. Such debates reintroduced Greco-Roman logic and reasoning."
You're so right. The centuries spent defining, refining and defending the Nicaean Creed were the liveliest, intellectually speaking, in the Old World. Entire groups of people, not just the elites, engaged in disputations about the nature of this or that, the validity of this or that, the meaning of this or that, in the richest social and cultural stew ever.
Posted by: ovidius_naso at November 25, 2006 1:29 PM
Thanks to Palamas for a most insightful post.
The vast majority of US citizens have a paucity of knowledge of Christian history in the Middle East. The reasons for this are twofold: First, most Americans’ heritage is in the Roman Catholic/Protestant sects that arose in Europe. Their knowledge of Christian history is centered on the Western Roman Empire and its successors. While there is a small percentage of Orthodox Christians in the US, Greek, Russian, Armenian, Assyrian, etc, little is known or taught about their history and culture.
Second, America is drifting toward a new religion of Secularism with its foundational, fundamental tenant of moral equivalency. In this case, Christians are just as bad as Muslims, they engaged in the Crusades after all. To ascribe moral values of right and wrong is to commit the sin of being judgmental and intolerant in Secularism. This is more powerful than the lack of historical knowledge.
I am quite secure in my contention that the average American has no idea that places we now call Jordan, Iraq, Egypt and Turkey were once predominantly Christian. This is why we find ourselves feckless against the enemy.
So the only hope is education. I suggest Atom Egoyan’s film, “Ararat” for a slight introductory on a popular culture level.
at November 25, 2006 1:34 PM
Take back Saint Sophia.
Posted by: Battle_of_Tours
Amen to THAT, my brother!
at November 25, 2006 1:48 PM
Is he coming in from outer space or what?
Posted by: americaningermany.......Click the link on my post above...it's all there.
Posted by: storagemanager at November 25, 2006 1:53 PM
You must have had a good time with this.
Question: where can I download the song, so as to then sing your lyrics correctly?
Can anyone help?
Posted by: Hugh
Easiest way to download is to get a program called limewire. It's on www.limewire.com. They have both a Mac and a PC version. you download and istall the version for your platfrom and OS. Then it's download away!
All you do is type into the search window whatever you are looking for and - bingo!
Posted by: germaninamerica at November 25, 2006 1:53 PM
Europeans would be foolish to admit the dysfunction of Turkey into its own tent.
Posted by: Johnathan
We're becoming plenty dysfunctional all on our own.. and we are bringing in moslems each and every day.. to add to the dysfunction. Eurolemmings!!!
Posted by: germaninamerica at November 25, 2006 1:59 PM
I guess Europe is not alone in stupidity that abounds amongst the ruling elites - the US too has its own bunch of fools - the only difference is the US does not have a trojan horse within its borders that could take over within the next few decades - Europe does, and it is the US who is facilitating this trojan horse through their love affair with Turkey.
Posted by: GreekFrenchInfide
Yes, they have been preaching to us to let turkey into the EU. I never got the idea why that should be something we would want. I think the US is trying to weaking Germany and the EU. They always play these little 'geostrategical' games. This one could backfire into their faces if the EU gets taken over by hostile islamos.
They tried to impose the Euro single currencey on us mainly to weaken the Deutschmark in light of German Unification. That was the price they asked Germany to pay. Now the Euro is stronger than the dollar.
The Europeans of course, do plenty to return these favors. which creates a hostile transatlantic atmosphere.. all for some 'geopolitical' gain.
Like getting the Russians out of Afghanistan. Wow.. that was a GREAT idea, wasn't it?! I for one wish the Russians never had left there.
Posted by: germaninamerica at November 25, 2006 2:31 PM
Those neighbors are in for a treat. If only they had the right frame of mind.
Posted by: Hugh
They sound like a real buch of killjoys. Are they mohametans?
at November 25, 2006 2:41 PM
If I have to choose between 80's music and Islam, I think I'll take Islam.
I declare jihad on you!
The '80s were the golden age of modern music. How dare you insult the great prophets of the '80s! One day they shall return. Boy George, David Byrne, Howard Jones, Air Supply, Hall and Oates, Cyndi Lauper, The Eurythmics, Journey, Stix, Foreigner, Loverboy, Honeymoon Suite, REO Speedwagon, Kate Bush, Pat Benatar, Blondie, Duran Duran, The Cure, Erasure, Peter Gabriel, Genesis, Billy Idol, The Human League, Teenage Head, New Order, Pet Shop Boys, Prince, The Romantics, Simple Minds, Elvis Costello, Van Halen, and yes, even U2. And about 200 other bands I can't think of right now.
But most of all, you do not want to anger Freddy Mercury. What the muslims don't know, is that the 12th imam, is really the lead singer for Queen and he is going to kick their asses for pressuring the cancellation of his posthumous birthday celebration in his native Zanibar.
Posted by: August22 at November 25, 2006 3:14 PM
And you may ask yourself
What are they afraid of?
Why can't your own people decide for themselves what they believe?
This is suppression of any conflict with islam, why?
I'll tell you why...in the words of another song,
"It only takes a spark
to get a fire going"
If the truth were allowed, muslims would convert by the millions.
They are afraid of the Church.
at November 25, 2006 3:30 PM
David Byrne is an idiotic PC Leftist.
Byrne has his own blog. Look what he wrote about the movie called Jesus Camp, a movie about so-called Christian "extremists" and a Christian school they run:
I kept saying to myself, “O.K., these are the Christian version of the Madrassas (those Islamic religious instructional schools in Pakistan and elsewhere, often financed by Saudi oil money)...so both sides are pretty much equally sick, there’s a balance." (Although it must be said the Madrassas provide some regular education and literacy where no other option is available, they do community work that is non-religious...and they take in aimless troubled youth.)
http://journal.davidbyrne.com/2006/08/american_madras.html
Posted by: remote_control at November 25, 2006 3:44 PM
Posted by FrenchGreekInfidel
"Yup...this is the same Turkey that the US constantly shoves into the unwilling arms of Europe, the same Turkey that the US constantly supplies with all its high tech weaponry so that Turkey can threaten its Christian neighbours - Greece, Cyprus and Armenia, the same Turkey that the US and Kissinger in particular defended when the British Dhimmi's (who incidently weren't Dhimmis at the time) wanted to defend Cyprus after Turkey invaded in 1974, the same Turkey who now uses US made weaponry against the Greek Cypriot majority on the island"
your right Frenchgreekinfidel the usa did give weapons To Turkey to invade Cyprus and as a result my parents lost there land and cant return. Also your right about kissinger his a war crimminal who gave turkey the green light to invade and always made trouble for cyprus. but your wrong about the british wanting to defend Cyprus the british had opressed greek Cypriots to they use to hang young greek Cypriot men they where no better either i blame the british as well as the turks the british empire seems to have created lots of muslims states where it was a empire like in india it created pakistan which now is a muslim nuclear country. nothing has changed either britian and America also created bosnia and kosovo during the british empire also the british stoped the assyrian christians from having there own state lots of good the british empire did it spread islam to take over christian lands
at November 25, 2006 3:48 PM
Internet seems to say Freddy Mercury was a Parsi. A Persian Zoroastrian. A Zoroastrian priest presided at his funeral.
Posted by: dennisw at November 25, 2006 3:50 PM
David Byrne is an idiotic PC Leftist.
Nonetheless the Talking Heads made two great albums about 25 years ago. I heard their music everywhere I went.
Posted by: dennisw at November 25, 2006 3:55 PM
ALERT TROLL MARYAM ("Im a devout English muslim" and I do not believe what you say about Islam) is on the suicide bomber 'Ahmed' bomber thread right now giving americaningermany a hard time. Im helping out come out and check it out at:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014168.php#comments
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 25, 2006 4:00 PM
LONG LIVE A FREE EU WITHOUT TURKEY
LONG LIVE GREECE
GOD BLESS AMERICA
AND GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
May God help us if these scoundrals spread throughout civilization their stinking shiiara law!
at November 25, 2006 4:04 PM
"Nonetheless the Talking Heads made two great albums about 25 years ago."
I think you'll agree that Leftists should stay out of politics. Leftists often make great musicians, artists, actors and comedians, because their minds are so intimately bound up in fantasy; it's when they apply fantasy to reality and become sociopolitically influential (let alone dominant) that we are in trouble.
Posted by: remote_control at November 25, 2006 4:23 PM
I think you'll agree that Leftists should stay out of politics. Leftists often make great musicians, artists, actors and comedians....
They should stick to arts. Should be just a leavening agent in our schools, politics and national defense. The Iraq war sucks but it would suck 100 times worse with the Democrats in charge . Nancy Pelosi and her gang couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. They are as stupid about Islam as the Euro-leftist who troll for Muslim votes come election time
The worst part is the schools and universities go further left each year. These skunks only hire their own kind in the liberal arts faculties
Posted by: dennisw at November 25, 2006 4:31 PM
Pope Benedict is in the hands of God. To all devout believers, Christian and non-Christian alike, including the many freedom loving law-abiding Muslims of good will who I hope and pray are out there, I say please keep him in your prayers. Faith, hope and love are the most powerful forces in the universe.
I'd like to share this, which I found on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jY5jXZ8pAk&eurl=
Posted by: templar at November 25, 2006 4:40 PM
David Byrne is an idiotic PC Leftist. Byrne has his own blog. Look what he wrote about ...
David Byrne, like so many (good) creative artists.
From a great column by Julia Gorin called "My brain shrank in acting class":
"On the first day of class I noticed a small, framed sign on the mantel that read, "Sanity is the breeding ground for the unimaginative." In keeping with that sentiment, our teacher passed around a garbage pail and instructed us to throw out our left brains, the hemisphere ostensibly responsible for logic and reason. "
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/julia/gorin121803.asp
(btw: How do I make that link a live link in the post?)
at November 25, 2006 5:30 PM
(btw: How do I make that link a live link in the post?)
Never mind, it did it itself.
Posted by: WestwardHo at November 25, 2006 5:32 PM
Great post Robert. It's ironic that you should invoke the Talking Heads when some of the greatest barriers to actually understanding what we're up against are talking heads.
I remember the Stooges short mentioned earlier. This idea needs to be seriously explored. Ridicule, sarcasm, satire, the lampoon, every politically incorrect weapon we can mobilize needs to hit the street ASAP. Dhimmicrats and other Islam butt smoochers should be primary targets.
As Winston Churchill said: "The Americans fight...and laugh."
Posted by: USBeast at November 25, 2006 6:06 PM
If Pope sang the Talking Heads song “Don't Worry About The Government” ...
.
.
I see the States, across this big ocean
I see the wars made by Washington, D.C.
I think of the ones I consider my puppets
I think of the people that are fighting for me
Some Jews are like my loved Christians
They kill so much and they try to survive
I'm a lucky guy to live in my church building
Americans blow the buildings of the Iraqis
I'm over here, I'm everywhere
My church makes every conspiracy
It's gonna make life miserable for Muslims
It's gonna be easy to get plots done
I will relax along with my choir boys
Damned ones, damned ones, visit my church building
Take the hard way, pray and come to Hell with me
I'll be burning, burning and you will suffer with me
I don't know what I'm saying, my advisors are ignorant
I wouldn't worry 'bout me
God wouldn't worry about me!
Don't you worry 'bout me
Don't be sorry for me.
You may listen the original song at: http://www.sideload.com/cb/track/?id=137712
Well, alright it’s not as good :-( , and it’s only the second half of the song. Still, it’s a sign that ridicule, sarcasm and satire can be used either ways.
at November 25, 2006 6:24 PM
People should know that the entire area known as "Turkey" today was and always has been an entirely nonmuslim land with no Turks in it until about 1000-1100 AD (and at that time they didnt have all of it). Before that time it was always a province of Roman and before that the western side was Greek and
Armenian slavs on the east. Turks themselves are a mixture of mongol and steppes people and some meditaranean (some people were forced into Islam). The original 'Turk' tribes were converted to Islam and started to raid Asia Minor protected by the Roman Christian Byzantine Empire. It fought them off for a long time protecting the populace there which consisted of Greeks, Jews, Armenians, CELTS and Romans. Why celts and romans? normal population movement "immigrants" apparently. Because alot of them were already Christians they were no problems in their settling (it also explains why my cousins on my dads side from that area are natural pale faced redheads with freckles and green eyes). Byzantine Empire welcomed all EXCEPT Islam. The old Christian emperors unlike our modern politicians knew all too well what "Islam" stood for it wasnt peace! Also it was a new religion and Muhammed himself was still alive when he led attacks on far posts of the Byzantine empire. No emperor of Europe, no king of the saxons or the Germanic tribes or Italy or Byzantium was fooled by this "false prophet Muhammed"
The point of this posting is simple:
DONT LET MUSLIMS COME AND OVERTAKE YOUR COUNTRY --LIKE THEY OVERTOOK ASIA MINOR (ie modern day Turkey)!!
IF THE TURKS HAD BEEN CHRISTIANS OR JEWS OR EVEN BUDDISHTS THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER INVADED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM AND INSTEAD LIKE THE PEACEFUL CELTS WOULD HAVE BEEN SETTLERS AND ADDED TO THE ETHNICITY OF ASIA MINOR.
Thats my point. We all have to be from somewhere. Its not that they are "turks" and they are "bad" people (and Im of Greek background) but its that they are "good" muslims (especially during the invasions) and THAT makes them "bad" people. Something the Greeks and Armenians have been trying to convey to the rest of Europe for years (until thankfully the first 3 crusades they listened and helped to fight these creatures).
-------------
PS
Emperors and kings of old Europe KNEW what Islam was there was no "politically correct" mindset. "You believe what? And you want to do what to us if we dont believe in what god? Yeah okay buddy take your 'invitation' and shove it" (basically what the Byzantine Empire said to Muhammed. It was simple. Now, today with our "sophisticated" liberalism socialistic mindset people dont know what up or down is! I even saw a TV program once that claimed Hitler wasnt REALLY a bad person just mentally sick from having a bad childhood. excuse me while I vomit.
more on turkish people who are not from Asia Minor:
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ibrahimfaisal/Muhammad_Edits
quote:
"Many Christians view Muhammad as a false prophet and not as the bringer of any divine revelation. It was John of Damascus who coined the pejorative phrase "false prophet".[22] During the Middle Ages, especially in places where there was frequent Christian-Muslim conflict, it was popular to depict Muhammad being tortured by the demons in Hell. One such example is in Dante's The Divine Comedy in which Muhammad is in the ninth ditch of the eighth circle of hell."
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people
"the original turkic people are from area near china and mongolia:
Turks, who first appeared in history in the 7th century BC at the foot of the Köğmen Mountains, are a society whose language may belong to the disputed Altaic linguistic group. The Göktürks chose Ötüken, as a base and established khanates. The new state called the Göktürk Empire was founded at the foot of the Altay Mountains. Later they spread out and became an empire"
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_Mountains
"The altay mountains are a
a mountain range in central Asia, where Russia, China, Mongolia and Kazakhstan come together
at November 25, 2006 6:55 PM
Oben d'Imishte ,
You just have to laugh.
at November 25, 2006 7:22 PM
THE ALLIES SHALL WIN that was a great post, so how do you really feel about islam? just jokking.. set that aside, how can we educate more people? each one of us.. l tried leaflets, but that is tricky someitmes. l am going back to the airport to pick up my sister coming in from amsterdam and l will try to drop off lealets again. just trying to send information to some of my liberal family is hard enough. they keep saying its racists.. but l keep on. last time l pointed out its not a race but an ideology. but you know till it hits home.. wont sink in till then.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 25, 2006 7:49 PM
Hi ZenaWarriorPrincess (coolname).
Zena is supposed to be Spartan in the show I believe. On my dads side we were byzantines/asia minor Greeks on my mom its Spartan all the way!
Anyway what I do is give out a booklet (mostly of quran/hadith) quotes to people (has lots of quotes from everything from 9 year old bride of Mohound, to jihad, to treatment of women in Islam, all in one bound 35 page booklet.
IF after reading/browsing it I see the undecided person has even a glimmer of GENUINE understanding then Ill give them a free copy of Robert Spencers POLITICALLY INCORRECT GUIDE TO ISLAM. I like the guide because its "user friendly" for people not used to thick textbooks (which I love myself but whaddya' gonna' do-not everybody is that way.
I usually start with easier people. People I know who like to think and see stuff that is happening and say "uh yeah well they say islam is peaceful but what about all this muslim hysteria and attacks then?"
I hope you dont give up on your family! Its funny that many people think a system of belief is racial. Thats like saying all Catholics are Italian because their are so many Italian Catholics around! Or all protestants are of english descent etc etc. I hope they see that.
for my booklet links (basically 35 pages) go to this previous post I had and scroll down youll see it there.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014147.php#comments
at November 25, 2006 9:51 PM
Why do you suppose that the author chose to ignore the fact that the areas ruled by the Ottoman Empire were Christian until the moslems invaded?
The 7 churches of the Book of Revelation were in what is now Turkey but that doesn't warrant being commented on?
And as for good faith gestures, perhaps the moslem family that holds the key to one of the churches in Jerusalem....don't remember which Church of the Sepelchre?....would like to turn the key over to one of the Christian denominations that are represented at the church!!!!
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at November 25, 2006 10:19 PM
Nice and witty adaptation of David Byrne by Robert Spencer.
Posted by: traeh at November 26, 2006 12:46 AM
Turkey is secular only in name. Despite the control of the army and the many political strings to control terrorist propensities, the monster of jihadi terror can at any moment rise and there will naturally be earth quake like situations in europe.
The turks, the arabs and the punjabis are going to be the three hydra headed monsters, ready to engulf the world with their poisonous jihadi wars, most brabaric and savage in nature.
The future is full of difficult challenges. Long and dark shall be the night.
The question is are we prepared to deal with this terror menace.
Posted by: mystichealer at November 26, 2006 5:42 AM
eve_anne_gelical wrote:
"Why do you suppose that the author chose to ignore the fact that the areas ruled by the Ottoman Empire were Christian until the moslems invaded?"
Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Serbia, Hungary, etc. are still Christian today. The Ottomans did not impose Islam onto those people, for otherwise they would be Muslim after the Ottomans lost those lands.
"The 7 churches of the Book of Revelation were in what is now Turkey but that doesn't warrant being commented on?"
Masjid-el-Aqsa is in what is now Israel, so what?...
at November 26, 2006 12:11 PM
quote:
"The Ottomans did not impose Islam onto those people, for otherwise they would be Muslim after the Ottomans lost those lands."
Actually they imposed Shira law commanded by their 'faith' because the people in those lands were 'people of the book' (Christians and some Jews). If they were other religions God help them.
Anyway Shira law is 'imposing Islam', because as I have studied the books by Robert Spencer, various others and the quran/hadtihs themselves I see shira law is designed to encourage Islamic conversion in the most vicious ways (basically you are dirt if you remain Christian). Some were converted (many parts of eastern Turkey are made up of ehtnically hellenic 'turkish' muslims) but a vast majority of Christians did not convert not because the Ottomens didnt try to convert them (of course via Shira law) but because they were good mulsims --if Muhammed said kill all the people of the book as he said about the 'idolaters'(hindus) then they would have done that gleefuly. In other words they did try to impose Islam but only along the lines of proper shira legal allowances as proscribed by Muhammed. Its a testament to all those nonmuslim peoples strong faith that the Ottomans couldnt wipe it out.
As for the 7 churches of Revelation I believe eve ang lelical was pointing to the fact that huge areas (ie Asia Minor) were never muslim until they invaded. And in fact there were no muslim Turks in Turkey before 1000-1100 AD. The point being where muslims set foot they want shira law and where their is shira law, freedom and previous cultures are lost. God help Europe today. I sure as hell dont want them to take over London and Paris but they are doing a good job agistating there now.
Imagine years from now if somebody said Londistan and Parisstan used to be London and Paris and we said so what? I dont want the freaking muslims to do todays modern world what they did to yesterdays.
God Save the Queen
God Bless America
at November 26, 2006 12:56 PM
Somebody emailed me what 'policy' I want to help bring out by supporting anti-Islam writings.
May 13, 1940
"What is our policy? ... to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime."
--Winston Churchill
boy ain't that the truth.
at November 26, 2006 1:06 PM
Several months ago I went to Copenhagen and I bought a Jyllands Posten, my touristic guide was greek, and we spoke about orthodoxy, catholicism and islam. I love orthodoxy although I am fervorous catholic, and I think that we have to dialogue and join another time. There are many difficulties and the protestant religion delayed the union between christian branches, but we need it.
The papal trip to Turkey is dangerous, of course, we know it very well, but for aproaching to the orthodox and a possible improving condition of catholic and christians there, it worths it.
Muslims are very afraid of the Pope and the catholic religion, they know very well, that we are the head of christians, we are joined and we are supra-national like the islam tries to be, but it´s only arabic supremacism.
In Turkey, you can atheist, agnostic or muslim but you can´t be catholic, protestant or orthodox, curious!
Greetings
at November 26, 2006 2:12 PM
You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack.
With a beautiful wife.
With a beautiful car
Make that one beautiful wife and three ugly ones.
You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
400 miles from Mecca
With four Muslim wives and 29 children
8 of whom are named Muhammad
With 5 named Jihad
Self? How the bleep did I get here?
By the will of Allah. Inshallah!!
I can't seem to face up to the facts
I'm tense and nervous, and I, can't relax
I can't sleep 'cause my bed's on fire
Don't touch me, I'm a real live wire
Psycho Killer
Qu'est Que C'est
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
Run run run run run run run away
Psycho Killer
I'm outta here!
I'm going to make Jihad and kill infidels, Jews and Shia.
Not necessarily in that order!
at November 26, 2006 3:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bDF6kPDMQw&mode=related&search=
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 27, 2006 12:49 AM
fight the good fight my friends. God help the free world!
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 27, 2006 12:50 AM
Goodness, how presumptious of these Muslims to assume and audaciously declare that they have "pieces of knowledge"!!!!!!!!
Goodness, why even the Qur'an itself states that the world is FLAT! How knowledgeable!!! (snicker).
Insofar as this observer can see, these Islamic people (they look like geniune "Night of the Living Dead" zombies for my money) know NOTHING worth knowing except perhaps how to ram a sword into a human body part while screaming "allahu akbar!!!!!!!" at the top of their pathetic lungs or maybe how to shove a lingga into a yoni, and that would seem to be about the extent of their insight into the workings of the universe. Goodness.
Posted by: pythagoras at November 28, 2006 8:48 PM
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