| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Robert Spencer | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog |  |
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In this morning's feature article at FrontPage I discuss the Pope's trip to Turkey (news links in the original):
Pope Benedict XVI is set to arrive in Turkey on Tuesday, and tensions are running high. Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turk who shot Pope John Paul II in 1981, wrote to Benedict: “Your life is in danger. You absolutely must not come to Turkey.” And several weeks ago, a Turk named Ibrahim Ak stood outside Italy’s consulate in Istanbul and fired a gun while proclaiming his desire to strangle the pope. As he was arrested, Ak shouted: “I am happy to be a Muslim!” He said that he hoped the Pope would decide not to come to Turkey, and that his actions would inspire other Turks to violence: “God willing, this will be a spark, a starter for Muslims ... God willing, he will not come. If he comes, he will see what will happen to him.”Turkish officials are trying to make sure nothing does. According to the Associated Press, they have “mobilized an army of snipers, bomb disposal experts and riot police, as well as navy commandos to patrol the Bosporus Straits flowing through Istanbul.” However, Meliha Benli Altunisik, a professor at the Middle East Technical University in Ankara, questioned whether such precautions were necessary at all: "Will there be protests? Yes, of course. But I cannot take seriously the notion that he is in physical danger. He will rather be ignored."
Certainly Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan originally planned to ignore him. Erdogan will be attending a NATO summit in Latvia on the first two days of the Pope’s visit and at first announced that he would not meet with him during the last two days, either. “You can't expect me to arrange my timetable according to the pope,” Erdogan huffed, and of course he’s right: how could anyone expect him to rearrange his busy schedule to meet with someone so unimportant as the Pope?The real reason why Erdogan did not want to meet the Pope, of course, is the same reason why security is so tight: Turks are enraged over the Pope’s speech at the University of Regensburg on September 12, 2006, in which he quoted the fourteenth century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologos: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” There were riots all over the Islamic world over these remarks in September, and several Christians were murdered in Iraq and Somalia. In Turkey, tempers haven’t cooled. Turkish politician Salih Kapusuz said: “The owner of those unfortunate and arrogant comments, Benedict XVI, has gone down in history, but in the same category as Hitler and Mussolini...It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades.” The Crusades were on al-Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahri’s mind, too: he likened Benedict to Pope Urban II, who called the First Crusade in 1095.
Unfortunately, the danger of and anger over the Pope’s visit to Turkey has overshadowed both the real focus of the visit, and what should be its major preoccupation. The main purpose of the Pope’s trip is to meet with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church. One may hope also that the Pope will take an opportunity to shed some light upon the woeful condition of religious minorities, principally Christians, in what is nominally a secular state that allows for religious freedom. Two converts from Islam to Christianity, Hakan Tastan and Turan Topal, are currently on trial on charges of “insulting ‘Turkishness’” and inciting hatred of Islam. What seems to be behind the charges is that Tastan and Topal were proselytizing – which, while not officially illegal, is frowned upon and has sometimes resulted in beatings of Christians trying to hand out religious literature. On November 4, a Protestant church in western Turkey was firebombed, after months of harassment that was ignored by Turkish authorities. The murderer of a Catholic priest, Fr. Andrea Santoro, last February in the Turkish city of Trabzon was recently sentenced to only eighteen years in prison. (The killer shouted “Allahu akbar!” as he fired shots at the priest.)
All this bespeaks a Turkish officialdom that is hostile – at best – to non-Muslim forms of religious expression, Turkey’s guarantees of religious freedom be damned. The institutionalized subjugation and second-class status of religious minorities under the Ottoman Empire was bad enough, but Turkish secularism has been, if anything, even worse. Constantinople was 50 percent Christian as recently as 1914 (its name was changed to Istanbul in 1930); today, it is less than one percent Christian. The Catholic Church has no legal recognition; Catholic churches, like other churches, remain inconspicuous so as not to draw the angry attention of mujahedin. Even the recognized Churches are not allowed to operated seminaries or build new houses of worship – in accord with ancient Islamic Shari’a restrictions on non-Muslims in an Islamic state, which restrictions paradoxically enough still have at least some force in secular Turkey.
The righteous fury with which the Pope will likely be greeted in Turkey will shift attention from the shame Turkish authorities should feel over the mistreatment of Christians in their land that nominally allows for religious freedom. The mainstream media will focus on protests against the Pope, and pay scant attention to anything he may say, if he says anything at all, about the oppression of Christians in Turkey. And that, in the final analysis, may lead the Turkish government – for all its security precautions – to hope that the protestors will turn out in force.
Posted by Robert at November 28, 2006 4:04 AM
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Quote (from Robert Spencer in above report)"
"Unfortunately, the danger of and anger over the Pope’s visit to Turkey has overshadowed both the real focus of the visit, and what should be its major preoccupation. The main purpose of the Pope’s trip is to meet with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church. One may hope also that the Pope will take an opportunity to shed some light upon the woeful condition of religious minorities, principally Christians, in what is nominally a secular state that allows for religious freedom"
--------
Muslims dont CARE about nonmuslim problems --they are following allahs commands to "hate the unbelievers".
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at November 28, 2006 4:16 AM
when the muslims invaded constantinople (now istanbul) and got into the Christian church hagia sophia:
quote:
"The Army converged upon the Augusteum, the vast square that fronted the great church of Haghia Sophia whose bronze gates were barred by a huge throng of civilians inside the building, hoping for divine protection at this late hour. After the doors were breached, the troopes separated the congregation according to what price they might bring on the slave markets. A few of the elderly and some infants were summarily slain with a commercial ruthlessness. Soldiers fought over the possession of richly clad senators or for the comely youth or maiden" [1]
from
[1]
fall of constantinople:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
at November 28, 2006 4:18 AM
The Turks were once the enemies of Europe. Then Turkey became "the sick man of Europe." After the wonderful "secularization" of Moslem Turkey (replete with the slaughter of the Armenians, which of course never happened along with the Nazi holocaust of the Jews), the Turk became respectable.
Why the Turks are Europeans now, aren't they? there are so many in Europe now that either they are European or Europe is becoming Moslem.
Either way, it's time to let 'em join the EU. They are. after all, civilized, aren't they?
The pope quoted a Byzantine emporor who perceived Mohammed as promoting nothing but evil and violence. The Turks are showing him--and us--that this is not so! Mohammed's "religion" does not preach violence! They will kill the pope to prove their point! They will--
You know the rest allahu akbar, etc. ad nauseam.
Posted by: unicorns62000 at November 28, 2006 4:30 AM
LOL
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 4:33 AM
The Pope started his flight with pretty cool remarks. He's not worried but recognizes the diffucult times. He clearly stated that it's not a political move.
The turkish MP will meet him at the airport too.
Posted by: Arnie at November 28, 2006 4:45 AM
yeah he's a pretty cool guy. May God protect him in the land dar al-Islam...
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 4:54 AM
If any harm comes to this Pope, it will only strengthen his remarks. If nothing happens, the Pope truimphs over Islam by saying something that upset many muslims and got away with it. Either way, the Pope will rise in greatness.
Posted by: DrWolffenstein at November 28, 2006 4:56 AM
OT?
Remember the 93 bombings in Bombay?
Religion of Peace dontcha know.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6180858.stm
Posted by: Alex at November 28, 2006 5:06 AM
The modern history of Turkey demonstrates that Islam in all its glory can openly operate, and can do so not only with no apology, but while actually demanding apology.
The selective application of undisputed history has rendered current events surreal.
Anderson Cooper of CNN just explained on TV that the Moslem anger is about the "controversial remarks made about Islam," and the "damage B16 did in just 32 words... that was in no question highly provocative." CNN then interviews an angry Moslima who said, "the Pope has dishonored Islam. He said that Mohammed was a terrorist and used a sword."
But, Mohammed did use a sword and identified himself as a terrorist, and was identified by Allah in the holy Islamic scriptures:
* 2:216 * 4:74 * 9:111 * 8:12 * 4:96 * 56:22 * 38:51 * 55:56 * 55:76 * 56:22 * 8:74 * 9:2 *
Mohammed said, "I have been made victorious with terror."
--- Bukhari Vol. 4 Book 52 No. 220
How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.
--- God endorsing the terrorism of Mohammed and his Companions in Koran 7:3
610 * 623 * 732 * 1066 * 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001
Anderson Cooper just asked a professor if B16's implication that there is insufficient reason in Islam was fair, and uncritically nodded as the professor answered, "No it's not... Pope Benedict has indicated that he knows very little about Islam."
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 28, 2006 5:15 AM
Brigitte Gabriel (an emerging Leb Christian anti-Dhimmi opinion celebrity, bless her) just noted on Fox news to the numb-skulled Niel Cavuto that, The best selling book in Turkey right now is one about murdering Pope Benedict, and has a picture of him on its cover with a gun to his head."
610 * 623 * 732 * 1066 * 1215 * 1453 * 1492 * 1683 * 1928 * 1938 * 1948 * 1996 * 2001
From 50% Infidel to 1% in just 92 years. Is this as precipitous as the demise of Infidels in Lebanon?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 28, 2006 5:27 AM
For today’s demonstration, an Islamist party is planning to ferry around 75,000 people on buses into Istanbul. Kerincsiz said his group was planning to stage other protests during the visit but did not support violence.
Not yet at least. Instead of membership of the EU, he advocates restoration of a Turkic empire stretching from former Ottoman provinces in the Balkans right up into Central Asia. Achieving this would presumably involve a certain amount of swordplay.
It matters little to him that Atatürk, his hero whose portrait hangs in his office, was in favour of westernisation, urging his citizens to waltz and wear western clothes and introducing a Roman alphabet and Swiss penal code. “Being in the EU, we would not be able to restore our empire,” said Kerincsiz.
Posted by: snackbarali at November 28, 2006 5:47 AM
Anderson Cooper's "When Faiths Collide" just went over the top in the Fake History game when it was complained that the Crusaders took Constantinople in 1204 AD. The special also featured a bitter old Catholic priest complaining that the Crusaders killed everybody in Jerusalem when they took it, even Moslems.
Neither historian mentioned on CNN how Jerusalem and Constantinople got to be Moslem in the first place, and what happend in these places under Moslem rule.
Also, an historian pulled a John Esposito when she brushed over without comment what happened during the nearly 380 years from 718 to 1095 AD.
The Dark Ages perhaps? Or would that benighted epoch better be called the Eurabian Age?
John Esposito ahistoricism has had its influence. Eurabia is back, and this time with petrodollars.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 28, 2006 5:48 AM
Assalamau Laikum all,
Up to ninety-eight percent of Turkey is Muslim, Christians are obviously a minority religion in Turkey. Because it is a secular country the Constitution guarantees religious freedom, tolerance is the rule. The population thus includes members of the Armenian Apostolic and Greek Orthodox churches, Roman and Eastern Catholics, and Jews.
Obviously, dispute continues, however, over what part Islam should have in Turkish life. It is the most controversial issues in Turkey today, and may at some point alter whether Turkish society is organized on a secular or religious basis.
After the possible crucifixion of Jesus Christ, many of the early Christians, escaping from persecutions in Jerusalem, came to Asia Minor and settled. St. Paul preached in Perge, St. John stayed for a while in Ephesus together with Virgin Mary. St. Peter it is said build the first Christian church carved in a cave.
Christianity was declared as the official religion in 380, during the reign of Theodosius I, and destruction of pagan temples was legalized. Even so, it was plagued by deep-rooted doctrinal and theological disputes, the most contentious of which was the true nature of Jesus Christ; man, God or both at once.
In a pitiful effort to solve these differences and define the doctrinal faith of the Christian Church, seven Ecumenical Councils were held. The First Ecumenical Council drew up a declaration of faith, the Nicaean Creed, which is still used today. Subsequent Councils, debated the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the human versus the divine nature of Christ and the function of icons in worship. Even they could not decide if Jesus was man or God.
You peoples here need to be extremely careful to devote yourselves whole-heartily to Christianity…there are things here that have been kept away from you.
The fourth Council resolved that Christ was ‘truly God, truly man’ in one being, but the Armenian and Syrian Orthodox refused to accept this, stressing Christ’s single Godlike nature, and did not take part in subsequent Councils. In 1054 700 years later…and they still hadn’t solved this a schism took place between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches which was both theological and political. These orders remained in effect until they were annulled ONLY in 1965.
Obviously given the history, many Kafur simpletons found the road to piety confusing and assorted schisms between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Byzantine church certainly didn't simplify matters.
Additionally, In 1095 Pope Urban called for a holy war against the Selcuks who had taken Jerusalem in 1071, thus launching the Crusades; The Catholic Community in Turkey (who you can clearly see are outsiders) dates back to the Crusades and to expatriate settlers who came since for diplomatic or commercial purposes only.
Over time, it was however relatively easy to replace Christianity by Islam brought by the invading Selcuks. As you know Islam was also a relatively (if somewhat disciplined) simple path to follow - profess belief in One God and the mission of Muhd SAW, and follow the Five Pillars of Faith…the wavering Kafur saw spiritual sense in this…and cornered by Dhimmi Tax (50 percent of earnings for non-Muslims as opposed to the tithing for Muslim believers) for those living on Ottoman-held lands, no wonder large numbers of peasants converted their faith to Islam.
Gradually, Christianity in Turkey disintegrated, so that when the Islamic Ottomans finally conquered the Byzantine Empire.
I hope that his holiness remains perfectly safe but talks a little bit about the chequered history of Christianity other than simply bashing Islam….you peoples need to know ALL the truth not just the bit about Islam.
I think the pope is smarting from the way the early Kafur turned away from Christianity to Islam…he may even be a bit jealous…but I think he will be keeping that feeling to himself.
Posted by: Naseem at November 28, 2006 5:55 AM
THE NIGHT OF TERROR IN CONSTANTINOPLE
Istanbul Pogrom 6-7 September 1955
In the beginning of the 20th century there were 300,000 Greeks residing in Constantinople.
In 1955 there numbers diminished to approximately 80-100.000
Today, year 2006, the Greek community is estimated to number a mere 1,500 persons.
"The Turk is the only master in his country. Those who are not pure Turks have one right in this country: The right to be servants, the right to be slaves"
Turkish Minister of Justice. Newspaper Milliet, September 30, 1930.
from
http://www.byzantinos.com/1_Istanbul_Pogrom.html
If TURKEY really was secular then Christians would have not been decreased forcibly from countless numbers to 1,500.
There is no religion with evil doings than Islam.
There were millions of Christians (armenians,Greeks, jews) before 20th cent. they were massacred in the name of allah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
at November 28, 2006 6:05 AM
There were survivors at the hands of the murderous muslims following the dictates of the false prophet Muhammed at the hands of evil moongod allah:
Armenian Genocide Survivor Sam Kadorian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfC0thL5lUc
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Hagop Assadourian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3JYUYnsqE&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor: Richard Parseghian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ijIaMWwtk&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide (1915) Survivor --Alice Muggerditchian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHiaiqowsQg&mode=related&search=
Armenian Genocide Survivor Vartan Hartunian 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNYiNbRZBDk&mode=related&search=
MORE SURVIVORS (just key in Armenian Genocide Survivor on youtube.com) or press link below for the indexed results of that search:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Armenian+Genocide+Survivor&search=Search
at November 28, 2006 6:07 AM
------------------
********WE WANT YOUR LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS FOR ISLAM AS YOU LEAVE TURKEY LEAVE THEM BEHIND OR WE WILL TAKE THEM*********************
PS
(when they forced on mass migration out --the turks and kurds would raid the caravan to take little boys and girls in keeping with Muhammeds rules of slave accquisition during 'war'. Look at what this survivor has to say):
Armenian Genocide Survivor - Kevork Balian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdnHOSs0XNA
at November 28, 2006 6:08 AM
God Bless and keep safe His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI's trip to Turkey to not only make stronger relations with his Orthordox Christian brothers and sisters, but also to talk to the Muslim community about the need to have reason with faith.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 28, 2006 6:15 AM
The Blue Mosque was deliberately sited to face Hagia Sophia, to demonstrate that Ottoman and Islamic architects and builders could rival anything their Christian predecessors had created. However, the architect was unable to construct a bigger dome then Hagia Sophia's, so he instead made the mosque splendid by the perfect proportion of domes, semidomes, and minarets. Still, the building failed to surpass Hagia Sophia in terms of size, which greatly angered Sultan Ahmet. The two buildings thus comprise a unique historical and architectural precinct.
The Pope is gonna visit the Blue Mosque. Between apologies, perhaps B16 can work in a few words about the aggression behind Islam, its competitive nature even in its church architecture, and a fair comment or two on the relative deficiency of Moslem engineers, both then and now.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 28, 2006 6:19 AM
Talk about disunity among Christians and the need to have any divisions ended and healed......
This being posted while sunni and shia Muslims go after each others necks in Iraq for example. This reveals that the Muslims will NEVER be united. Goes to show that when you live in a glass house, do not throws rocks.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 28, 2006 6:22 AM
The population does NOT include plentiful numbers of Greek Orthodox,Catholics, Jews, Copts as MOST of them were massacred or forcibly moved.
denying THIS shows either ignorance or pure evil or both on your part.
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 6:26 AM
Alarmed Pig Farmer,
What you have posted goes to show that Hagia Sophia is truly a miracle in design, and that even the best designers could not match. What we need now is Pope B16 with a deed document, reclaim it for the Christian Community.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 28, 2006 6:27 AM
Our TROLL IS BACK SPEWING LIES OF ISLAM SCROLL ABOVE
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 6:27 AM
The whole issue of Jesus Christ being either God or man thankfully has been resolved. Thankfully he is both God and man. Not only the early church councils have settled it, the Gopsels both back it up and confirmed it. As far as Christ dying and being resurected from the dead, the famous Shroud of Turin confirms it.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 28, 2006 6:46 AM
AMERICANINGERMANY SAY HI TO NASEEM SHE JUST LOGGED IN SOME MINS AGO (read her idiocy in the earlier post!) its hilarious!
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 6:59 AM
cannot take seriously the notion that he is in physical danger. He will rather be ignored."
with that said by the muslim elite, the muslim horde protests with violence. muslims cannot contain themselves, it is not in their nature. they are true monsters. may Europe watch and learn what Turkey truely is, a sadistic nation of worshippers of the cult called islam!
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 28, 2006 6:59 AM
Hi ZenaWarriorPrincess!
yes a cult of death and pedophillia --these "believers" took everything that is evil and have made it into a 'religion' --and I thought Satanism was bad!! now I have to apologize to the satanists!
at November 28, 2006 7:05 AM
AmericaninGermany yes I know what you mean. Oh Oben hahaha yes thanks. You know I am getting sick of Naseem and I even *ugh* feel sorry for her silliness --maybe its best to ignore THAT particular troll. She is only repeating herself. At least Oben tried new arguments (all weak though)
he is the diet coke of evil after all.
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 7:07 AM
i've just gone thru some links. Why is it that isla and a lot of Arabs engage in a alot of lies?
Why are they bent on distorting history - if not about the genocides of greeks and armenians, it's about israel and islam itself?
Even, it was very obvious in the reporting of the war bw israel and hezbollah recently.
Everywhere they are raising up a generation of youths fed with falsehood and brainwashed. Unfortunately, these youths are ready to die for these falsehoods.
For example, who reads history and does not know that the jews have been in palestine more than 3000 years ago - years b4 islam was formed? But a lot of youths among the moslems right now are living with the lie that jews just came and stole the land of moslems.
All these riots in Turkey are still based on these lies.Any attempt to unravel any of these truths about and lies in islam is met with violence.
'islam is indeed a religion of peace'
at November 28, 2006 7:13 AM
americaningermany,
Because of the nonsense they can post, I have learned to ignore the trolls. They are making fools of themselves. Best not to feed them.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 28, 2006 7:14 AM
--The Milliyet newspaper said President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, who invited the Pope to Turkey, will present him with a copy of the imperial order for tolerance issued by the Ottoman Sultan who seized Istanbul from the Christian Byzantine Greeks in 1453.--
WTF? Code speak for "see how tolerant Turks have/can be once you non-believers get yourselves subdued?"
Posted by: Malinois at November 28, 2006 7:14 AM
I think the pope is smarting from the way the early Kafur turned away from Christianity to Islam…he may even be a bit jealous…but I think he will be keeping that feeling to himself.
--- Naseem
Assalamau Laikum, Naseem. You should know that, with your penchant for Fake History, you too could appear on one of Anderson Cooper's softball interviews.
But, going to your point above, you are right. B16 must be circumspect in his comments during this Asia Minor visit. Not out of jealousy, but another more important form of Infidel weakness: the 6th Pillar of Islam.
His Holiness must keep in mind the widespread murder of Christians that would surely ensue from London to Pakistan if he so much as quoted just one unflattering ayat from the Koran, a single monstrous hadith from Bukhari, or an untoward passage from Ishaq, who openly admitted to fellow Moslems that he left out the worst of Mohammed's life in his sacralized biography of him for the sake of Islam.
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
The 6th Pillar of Islam
The duty of every Moslem to cause a pervasive fear of personal ruination, injury, or even murder of any Infidel who dares to criticise or challenge Islam in any way; to pose this 6th Pillar at any such critic, his family, friends, community, and even descendants.
--- as implicitly commanded by Allah in the Koran, by Mohammed in the Sunnah, and by any objective reading of Moslem history
at November 28, 2006 7:23 AM
This is the peaceful history of islam: http://www.byzantinos.com
The story is the same everywhere islam spread.
at November 28, 2006 7:30 AM
This is the peaceful history of islam: http://www.byzantinos.com
The story is the same everywhere islam spread - west africa, europe, middle east, far asia and even in this current bid to rule the world.
at November 28, 2006 7:31 AM
Nwachinemere
Yes its amazing how they believe all these obvious lies and their MEDIA is filled with it! (along with exhortations to jihad of course)
You might be interested in this:
MEMRI which is Media East media Researh program
BASICALLY it has clips from CURRENT middle east TV shows and programs from all over the middle east both as video clips and transcripts, updated with new stuff regularly, it gives you a DIRECT view of what they are watching in the Muslim countries (crazy stuff though):
http://www.memritv.org/subjects.asp
Secondly there is Palestinian Media watch page--it does not offer the same service but currently on the homepage has palestinian TV jiahd promotion clips AND the video taped reaction of the Senate hearings (hilary clinton blasts the palestinian tv rep at the hearings)
at November 28, 2006 7:32 AM
Nwachinemere,
Thank-you for this wonderful website. It has been bookmarked. Thankfully the ugly truth about this religion is coming to light.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 28, 2006 7:47 AM
[...] "Today, there are approximately two thousand native-born Christians, almost entirely Greek, in the Queen City of Christendom. They are mostly old, mostly die-hards, and mostly clerics. As the Turkish state intended all along, the faith is nearly extinct in one of its most ancient lands -- and the time will come when no native-born Christian "Turk" will be competent to sit upon the Patriarchal throne. And what then? Will the Ecumenical Patriarchate simply die a quiet death after long centuries? Will its demise be met like so many other tragedies of Christendom, with small regret and apathy? Will the Turkish state be a better, more Turkish state without its Christians?
At some point in the cold night, the dogs retreat to warm recesses in the alleys and corners of Sultanahmet. For a short while, the old center of Constantinople is as empty and lifeless as its Christian caste. In the early morning, the muzzein's cries fill our hotel room. But we open the curtains, and there is the Great Church, silent, solid, enduring -- and waiting."
http://www.popeandpatriarch.com/?q=node/75
Posted by: Malinois at November 28, 2006 7:53 AM
Second article quotations below. (first article is also interesting on confiscations of non Muslim foundations in Turkey. They still haven't returned them as required by the EU.)
"September 5, 2005
WORLDWIDE TAX OVERVIEW
by Cathy Phillips, editor of Tax Notes International "
"On the morning of November 12, 1942, the citizens of Turkey woke up to the most draconian wealth tax ever envisaged. While the tax in theory applied to the entire predominantly Muslim nation, in practice much of its burden rested with the minority Christian and Jewish communities who primarily resided in Istanbul, formerly known as Constantinople. Neither the rate of taxation nor the taxable base and its derivation were made public."
"Tax assessments were arrived at in secret, and individuals were directed to settle their government assessed liabilities within two weeks, without any appeal provisions in place. The penalty for Christians and Jews who failed to do so within a month was deportation to forced labor camps in eastern Turkey in addition to having their property confiscated. The tax was initially also extended to Christian and Jewish schools, as well as to churches and synagogues, but not to Muslim institutions, because they were owned or funded by the government."
Formatting of tables is better in the original.
" Table 1: Statutory Tax Rates
Provision Applied to Applied to
Rate on wartime profit Muslim Turks Non-Muslims
12.5 percent 50.0 percent
Additional tax zero Up to 50 percent of personal wealth
Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax."
"In an otherwise officially secular state, taxpayers were classified as Muslim and non-Muslim, denoted with the letters M and G, respectively./2/ The latter included Jews and Christians, including Armenians and Greeks. Assyrian Orthodox Christians also fell in that class. An additional class of taxpayers were the Donme, denoted by D. The Donme were Jews whose ancestors had converted to Islam in the 17th century./3/ Like the Jews and Christians, the Donme were taxed at rates higher than those that applied to Muslims."
"able 3: Tax Assessments of Minority Institutions
Christian and Jewish Institutions/*/ Number Assessment (TRL)
Schools 88 227,550
Churches and Synagogues 27 119,200
Hospitals 7 86,750
/*/ Zero assessment for Muslim institutions, which numbered in the thousands.
Source: Faik Okte, The Tragedy of the Turkish Capital Tax."
"Table 4: Effective Tax Rates by Religious and Ethnic Affiliations
Merchants by Affiliation Tax Rates (percent)
Muslim 4.94
Greek Orthodox 156.00
Jewish 179.00
Christian Armenian 232.00
Source: C.L. Sulzberger, "Turkish Tax Kills Foreign Business,"
The New York Times, Sept. 11, 1943."
at November 28, 2006 8:07 AM
Reference on above 1942 Tax Law
Population of Anatolia 1915 before Genocide Ottoman Official records
Muslims were 5.6 million, total population was 9.1 million. So 3.5 million were non-Muslim. So the genocides or suppression of Christians, Jews and others by the Muslims was really about getting rid of them.
It was a delayed completion of the conquests in previous centuries.
at November 28, 2006 8:36 AM
Old Atlantic,
Thank you for your sobering perspective!
Malinois
Posted by: Malinois at November 28, 2006 8:44 AM
Old Atlantic; Thank you for that information. A new (or I guess 1400 year old) twist on the 'taxes redistribute people more than they do income' theory.
Thanks also to the Pope. May he be successful.
Posted by: limes at November 28, 2006 8:54 AM
Islam is the religion of murder and murderers.
Look no further than the US prison system, where islam is the religion of choice for murderers, rapists, and thugs. It validates thier inhuman behavior and gives them an exuse to be evil. If they aren't one before they get there, they convert when they are incarcerated.
When the war with islam goes mainstream, there will be a lot of housecleaning to be done here in order to get things done anywhere else.
There is no repentance in islam; there is no greater good in islam. There is nothing but lies, hatred, and a paved road to hell.
Posted by: Black Dog at November 28, 2006 9:00 AM
The Muslims always talk about building bridges. Well, here's their chance. Start building!
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 28, 2006 9:06 AM
Malinois and Limes, you're welcome.
Unpleasant Genocide Arithmetic
If the population is stable and one group is given an advantage so that its net growth rate is higher than a second group, then the second group will go extinct.
Proof:
In equilibrium the average growth rate is zero. So if one group is above the other in growth rate, it must be above zero and the second group must be below zero. So the second group goes extinct.
Islam is about giving its members advantage over others. So over time Islam is genocide of non-Muslims. Islam was developed in 622 AD when times were hard. This was the Dark Ages. Some think a volcano was responsible for it, but it was a harsh time of scarcity.
Islam was designed to give its members a leg up in that time of scarcity over non-Muslims. So Islam is a religion built on Unpleasant Genocide Arithmetic. It is holding that out to its members and using it to force conversions by non-members.
at November 28, 2006 9:09 AM
Muslims are like bacteria, they have exponential growth rates.
Therefore, you need to consider "doubling time"
Say the muslim growth rate is unrealistically low like 3.5% a year.
How many years will it be before the population doubles?
Answer: 69.2% / 3.5 % or round up to 70% / 3.5%
and your answer will be about 20 years.
Assuming a 10% growth rate, then the population will double in about 7 years.
That means they produce more raw sewage; consume more of everything; and you get the unpleasant picture.
If these bacteria ... ur...uhhh ... muslims ... increase exponentially, than the indigenous population declines by default.
Wake up Europeans, that stinky, rotten, smell in your streets is NOT your imagination!
Posted by: witness at November 28, 2006 9:21 AM
Spencer: Pope Rage in Istanbul and "The killer shouted “Allahu akbar!” as he fired shots at the priest".
Robert-
You are obviously a logical and rational man. How do you put up with such crap? I've read your folks are from Turkey and I surmise that someone in your family must have been hurt by these belief-system wackos. That's the only reason you can be so steadfast (and brave) in confronting such irrationality. There has has to be a personal reason why you confront Jihadist lunacy. It's not for fun.
God protect you. These people are nuts.
at November 28, 2006 9:46 AM
From January 13, 1915 New York Times:
"Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated
to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in
Turkey henceforth there will be room only for
Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the
Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti-
Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the
situation is perceptible."
Now the Turkish government is "profuse in its assurances" to the EU, the Pope, and to those stout defenders of Americans and Christians, C. Rice and George Bush that they have stopped anti-Christian persecutions. This is because there are so few Christians to persecute, that it hardly counts compared to the numbers before?
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 28, 2006 9:49 AM
Yet another smart move by the Pope while talking with Erdogan.
He said, we're not making politics, but wish Turkey good luck to become a member of the EU.
Now lets see if Turkey is able to establish an equality between muslims and Christians, Buddhist, Hinus etc..
Smart indeed
Amen, Amen!!
at November 28, 2006 10:05 AM
New York Times coverage of September 11, 2001.
NY Times 1914, 1915 repeat of above link
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 28, 2006 10:10 AM
'You peoples here need to be extremely careful to devote yourselves whole-heartily to Christianity…there are things here that have been kept away from you.' - Naseem
Well, other than the pot calling the kettle black.
If you think resistance to Islam is solely linked to the pursuit of Christianity then you should think again.
I dont believe in God, i hope that doesnt exclude me from protesting about an ideology that is so clear in its hatred for the free world and its wish to destroy it.
Even if you think it does. I will be here.
Tommy Atkins
England
at November 28, 2006 10:20 AM
bin Laden's Fatwa compared to Talaat Bey in 1914 saying Turkey for Turks only.
bin Laden's 1996 Fatwa and Delcaration of War against America.
"The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies."
Repeat of
From January 13, 1915 New York Times:
"Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, has stated to the Councillor of the Greek Patriarchate that in Turkey henceforth there will be room only for Turks. While he was profuse in assurance to the Greek Minister regarding the cessation of anti-Greek persecutions, no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible."
Is this now true of France, Denmark, London, Dearborn, Washington, etc?
"...no real amelioration of the situation is perceptible."
That is care of Bush, Blair, Rice, 9-11 Commission of Hamilton Kean, the Iraq Study Group of Baker Hamilton, Democrats, Republicans, MSM, profs, etc.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 28, 2006 10:22 AM
Mathematical models might be useful five or ten years out, but don’t extrapolate decades into the future. The unsustainable never is.
There is a libertarian saying; "Your right to swing your fist stops where my face begins." As the world grows more crowded, expect a smaller ‘productive’ population to be less ‘compassionate’ with exploding dependent populations, especially those who make it a point to bite the hand that feeds them.
Orwell wrote about mankind’s intelligence ‘devolving’ in the new societal model. I’d argue that intelligence is not nearly as much threatened as compassion.
at November 28, 2006 10:27 AM
The whole issue of Jesus Christ being either God or man thankfully has been resolved. Thankfully he is both God and man. Not only the early church councils have settled it, the Gopsels both back it up and confirmed it. As far as Christ dying and being resurected from the dead, the famous Shroud of Turin confirms it.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106
Oh yes , that famous medieval forgery made with
urine.
at November 28, 2006 10:29 AM
'You peoples here need to be extremely careful to devote yourselves whole-heartily to Christianity…there are things here that have been kept away from you.' - Naseem
Oh my oh my
There are things that have been taken away from the Scriptures, the Tora and other sources by mu and been terrible distorted.
(T) - error # 1
Posted by: Arnie at November 28, 2006 10:35 AM
With respect to my colleague Limes in this case, sometimes you can extrapolate. "Mathematical models might be useful five or ten years out, but don’t extrapolate decades into the future. The unsustainable never is."
98 percent of Turkey is Muslim today
Ottoman Empire 40 percent Christian 1915
So the Christian population went from 40 percent in 1915 to less than 2 percent today.
So with respect to my colleague, what turned out to be unsustainable in Turkey was Christian life.
"On December 21, 1995, Bethlehem became one of the areas under the full control of the Palestinian Authority. It is capital of the Bethlehem district. The current population of the town is about 40,000. The Christian population is no longer the majority, but a special statute requires that the mayor and a majority of the municipal council must nevertheless be Christian."
"Bethlehem's former mayor, Hanna Nasser, says an estimated 2,000 Christians in Bethlehem have emigrated during the period of 2000 - 2003. Fifty years ago, Bethlehem was overwhelmingly Christian. Today, it has a Muslim majority."
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 28, 2006 10:38 AM
With respect to my colleague Limes in this case, sometimes you can extrapolate. "Mathematical models might be useful five or ten years out, but don’t extrapolate decades into the future. The unsustainable never is."
Lebanon: a lady that lived the time live has something to say too.
http://civoc.com/newsline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=9
Posted by: Arnie at November 28, 2006 10:44 AM
With respects as well; Some of the Turkish Christians were slaughtered, but (and my numbers should be viewed with caution) I think the majority emigrated.
As the world grows smaller, fall back positions grow fewer and those being asked to leave (or being assessed punishing taxes, or being threatened with death) will tend to 'dig-in'. As an example, Denmark reportedly reduced annual immigration from 25,000 to 2,000. Expect more countries to follow Denmark's lead as Islamic immigration begins to have a bigger and bigger impact everyday citizen's lives.
Westerners have a rich history of rebelling against relatively sane religious organizations. My money's on the complete incompatibility of Islam with the Western mind.
First, immigration controls. Next, social standards. Or at least I hope.
Regards;
at November 28, 2006 11:00 AM
The Armistice of Mudanya and the Treaty of Lausanne, which provided for the independence of the Republic of Turkey also made significant provision for " an exchange of populations. Over one million Greek Orthodox Christians were displaced; most of them were resettled in Attica and the newly-incorporated Greek territories of Macedonia and Thrace. The Greeks of Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos were excluded (about 270,000 in Istanbul alone at that time [1]), and so were the Muslim population of Western Thrace (about 86,000 [2] in 1922)."
"Since signing the treaty, both Turkey and Greece have claimed that the other has violated its provisions. Greece has seen its ethnic minority population in Turkey diminish from several hundred thousand in 1923 to just a couple of thousand today, and claims that this was caused by the systematic enforcement of anti-minority measures.[1] Turkey closed the Halki seminary, which is in direct contradiction to the treaty which stipulates religious freedom."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919-1922)
__________________
Limes said:
"First, immigration controls. Next, social standards."
and
FINALLY the constitutional amendment banning Islam
that you
proposed last week. That dog SO wants to hunt!!
at November 28, 2006 11:43 AM
Malinois; Thanks for the plug-Here's the re-post, for whatever its worth:
The 24th Amendment to the United States Constitution
Whereas;
(1) Islam is a societal model coupling rigid codes for personal allegiances, legal systems, governance, and religion;
(2) In modern practice, these codes call for the undermining of the rights and freedoms of women;
(3) These codes cannot be reconciled with the United States Constitution as they call for non-believers to either convert to Islam, pay taxes to Islam, or be killed in the name of Islam;
(4) Followers of Islam actively seek to undermine the United States Constitution and the people who live under it;
It is found that Islam cannot be considered a religion with respect to the First Amendment. Organizations based on the teachings of Mohammed shall be banned in the United States. Individuals professing allegiance to any such organization shall be offered to become apostates from Islam and remain Citizens in good standing. Those who do not chose to leave the belief system shall be found guilty of Sedition, stripped of their Citizenship, and deported to their Country of Origin or Saudi Arabia.
at November 28, 2006 11:52 AM
Limes and Malinois are right, if we respond. If we wait for the invisible hand to stop immigration completely, not just a token amount, then it will happen.
We have to be politically active. We have to persuade. We have to write to Congressman and Senators. It doesn't happen by itself.
Once we project our exctinction, and anticipate it will happen if we don't change, then we still have to act based on that expectation. If no change means we go extinct, and we don't actually change it, then we do go extinct.
Immigration causes extinction of all the genes in a country, and on a rolling basis every annual cohort of immigrants.
See
Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic
and more at this search on "Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic"
We also have to denuke Pakistan and Iran, and support the Christians in Lebanon, Africa, etc.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 28, 2006 11:53 AM
I believe that Naseems comments are very useful, especially for those from Western Europe, so they clearly can see that Moslems in Europe have their own agenda and this is not less than grabbing our lands (I suppose that Naseem is Turkish and possibly live in Germany, where she enjoyes plenty of privileges that German state is granting to Moslem immigrants hoping this will made them less brazen. Possibly, Naseem has several children, which most German women cannot afford, as they have to live from their own work).
When Serbs were warning Europe, Muslims have an agenda, they are co-ordinated, focused on the so called "Green Transverse", i.e. creating a Muslim corridor from the Middle East right to the hart of core European countries (by killing, expelling the non Muslims, by outbreeding them and also by means of immigration from Turkey and the Middle East and last but not least by Turkey joining EU), they were told they are crazy and believe in irrational conspiracies. ( It is still common place in German media to compare Serbs and Israelis with Nazis).
Now Naseem, a proud Moslem herself, is confirming everything we warned you about, displaying the usual Moslem Herrenmensch-attitude, - this may help some people to open their eyes and start making preassure on the politicians to change the policy and start encouraging Moslems to leave Europe (limes, immigration control is not enough, we already have too many Moslems in Europe who are both practicing Moslems and breeding very fast. Islam must be banned in Europe as a dangerous ideology. In order to be able to achieve the necessary critical awareness on what Islam really is, we need sincere Moslems like Naseeem who say their parasitism in Europe is their right, granted on the basis of them being Moslems).
The situation in Germany is dreadful, Moslems have taken this country hostage, they dictate the rules, helped by an army of useful idiots on German side, busy finding excuses for them and demanding more money from the German state to support the "integration" (such as the recent project of introducing Islam into school curriculum in several German regions, all paid by the German state). At the same time , some obscure "Neo-Nazis" are in focus, a group that is marginal and without any influence, without any basis in the society.
I´ve been living 17 years in Germany and have thought many times about this and why Germans are not able to resist the enemy (which is Islam and not USA, not Israel, not Slobodan Milosevic). At the end of day I believe, those are similar reasons , as in Serbia and elsewhere. This is primarily the all encompassing and dominating left/multicultural ideology (even the Germany CDU party is kind of left). The school curriculum is dominated completely by left ideology, in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The main reason for this is that the right ideology and nationalism lost their legitimacy in Europe along with the Holocoust. Since then, numerous generations of Europeans , including Germans, have been brainwashed to believe that patriotism leads directly to fascism. It will take lot of Naseems to change this! Thus, she is cordially invited by me to continue with her contributions,
Regards,
at November 28, 2006 11:56 AM
"Unpleasant Immigration Arithmetic" is a mathematical theorem. If the assumption of sustained immigration is true, the consequence that genes go extinct follows. This applies to everyone here, and everyone who comes in any given year.
Each cohort of everyone here, including those newly arrived, has its genetic survival ratio asymptote to zero if immigration continues.
To avoid the consequences of the mathematical theorem, the assumption has to be completely avoided. Reducing immigration doesn't avoid the assumption. Immigration has to be zero. Close doesn't work. Its a theorem.
Limes and Malinois have said if we change things, the consequences won't happen that will happen if we don't change them. But we have to actually change immigration to zero, not just reduce it a lot.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 28, 2006 12:48 PM
Serbian girl-
You people were right in 1999. I know I was fooled by the media back then but not anymore.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 28, 2006 1:11 PM
Kindred spirit Mark Steyn, in a recent essay, incorporated comments from the lips of the new Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori.
Apparently, the Episcopalians are unconscious about their
own suicide.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/steyn/149527,CST-EDT-steyn26.article
at November 28, 2006 1:12 PM
Serbian girl,
the muslim strategy is clear, Eurabia will be achieved by latest 2050. Let's see, they have Turkey, Kosovo, Bosnia. Stumbling blocks for them have always been Serbia and Greece, so instead they got PC brigade in Europe and NATO to sympathize with them during Bosnian war and Kosovo conflict. Since they cannot fully penetrate through Balkans, they instead infiltrated by numbers into Western Europe, especially UK,, Germany and France. With they rights being lifted up above everybody else, in no time will they become strong enough to impose their way on whole Europe.
In nearer future, i predict a huge war will be fought over Kosovo, probably in next few years. I hope to God that Europe will wake up and help the Serbs this time around, and stop the Islamofascist in thier track.
To all Jihadwatchers, read up on the Battle of Kosovo, 1389 and you will understand why Serbs will never give it away.
Posted by: Branislav at November 28, 2006 1:48 PM
HOW CLUELESS IS CONDI??
@Malinois
Nice post!
I thought this was a DOOZY:
"The great majority of Palestinian people," said the secretary of state to Cal Thomas the other day, "they just want a better life. This is an educated population. I mean, they have a kind of culture of education and a culture of civil society. I just don't believe mothers want their children to grow up to be suicide bombers. I think the mothers want their children to grow up to go to university. And if you can create the right conditions, that's what people are going to do."
Cal Thomas asked a sharp follow-up: "Do you think this or do you know this?"
"Well, I think I know it," said Dr. Rice.
"You think you know it?"
"I think I know it."
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 28, 2006 1:55 PM
Quote from Robert Spencer article above:
" ...Turks are enraged over the Pope’s speech at the University of Regensburg on September 12, 2006, in which he quoted the fourteenth century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologos: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
quote from wikepidias fall of constantinople:
"Many civilians were slaughtered by the Turks when they first burst through the walls and captured the towers on the land walls...
After the doors [hagia sophia] were breached, the troopes separated the congregation according to what price they might bring on the slave markets. A few of the elderly and some infants were summarily slain with a commercial ruthlessness. Soldiers fought over the possession of richly clad senators or for the comely YOUTH AND MAIDEN."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
Sooooooo where exacttly was His Holiness amiss
in quoting the Byzantine Emperor? Historical facts aren't insults they are merely facts.
Islam is the insult.
Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 2:27 PM
American in Germany
OK, then Ahmadi from Pakistan. She is a proof that Europe and USA by no means, never, ever, should allow Moslems to enjoy our superior education. Europe should allow only Moslem dissidents to study in Europe and this only if they are capable of turning this huge favour by engaging themselves in fight against Islam, in enlighting their correligionists about the evils of Islam.
Branislav,
I dont believe there will be a war for liberating Kosovo any time soon. The best that devasteted Serbia can do is not to give its consent for Kosovo getting the "independancy" and to wait. While waiting, lot of things can happen. Moslems will start doing the same in Western Europe as they did in Bosnia and Kosovo, - as a matter of fact they already do. There are lot of schools here in Germany, where the majority of pupils are Moslems. Non-Moslem pupils are called "pigs", "Christian pigs" and are heavilly harassed. The same applies to teachers, especially to female teachers who are often abused by Moslem students, those evil Kalibans. Sounds familiar to you if you are coming from a Serb land? Let´s hope that this experience will lead to West forgetting about Serbia and focusing on its own problems, which would be a chance for Serbia to get back what is its rightful possesion and sacred heritage. The West forgetting Serbia would be help enough, they will never help Serbia directly, don´t be naive. The West will always tend to believe that they can appease Islam by feeding it with morsels of Christianity, even in face of its sheer impossibility (Serb lands are not the only one used by the West to trade with Moslems, see what is happening with Israel that is thrown to the wolves, see what is happening with Christian Assyrians in Iraq, they are ignored while being completely extinct in front of this very same West etc. etc.etc.)
This time before Serbia gets a chance (in 50 years? perhaps) should be used by Serbs to learn the lessons that have been delivered to them. The most important lesson is that they must become more similar to their enemies (in terms of brutality) if they want to survive , - otherwise they will not be able to use the chance when it comes. It is not a nice lesson, I agree, but it needs to be learned. On the contrary to popular belief, Serbs were not brutal, but their enemies were. Serbs were, in their majority naive, they wanted a multicultural society and all that, while surrounded by fanatical Moslems or deeply fascistic Croatians (I was also not born into views I have today, even though my family was exposed to Moslem violence when I was a child and lived in Kosovo long time ago, decades before 1999 ). And than Serbs were so busy defending their poor lives that they didn´t think of PR, somehow assuming that the world must see what is so obvious.
As long as Serbs don´t become more brutal, more similar to their enemies, they will not be able to liberate their lands. But what kind of Serbs these will be , you might ask. Yes, I agree, this is a legitimate question (and sooner or later all Europeans will be in this dilemma), but I believe there is no other choice. Or there is, but it doesn´t lead to victory, - this is exactly what the Kosovo myth is about, -according to it, prince Lazar and the Serbs lost not because they didn´t fought well, but because they have choosen the heavenly kingdom, not the one on earth. Sorry, I want to change this, - I am absolutely not prepared to offer the other cheek to the one who is hitting me, no way, I want to hit back and eliminate the threat for ever.I believe in "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", but most Serbs (still) don´t. Possibly, the loss of Kosovo and Bosnia is the just punishement for forgetting this Judeo-Christian fundament, for forgetting Serbian nationalism as an expression of this fundament.
Than, sure , we need Kosovo, Bosnia and other Serb lands, but , frankly, we need them without Moslems. For that purpose we need to change ourselves a lot and this will take time.
Posted by: Serbian girl at November 28, 2006 4:05 PM
I watched the pope's visit to Turkey on the News today and i have to say i was disapointed to see the pope visiting attaturks monument and the jounalist was glorifying Atatturk saying how attaturk was the founder of modern day secular Turkey yeah right he was so secular he killed and forced out nearly all the christians from asia minor so now turkey is 99% all muslim today.
at November 28, 2006 4:07 PM
On his blog today, Scott Adams -- the cartoon creator of Dilbert -- posted this funny idea:
"I read that the president of Turkey plans to present the Pope with a COPY of the imperial order for tolerance issued by the Ottoman Sultan who seized Istanbul from Christians in 1453. Now if we ignore for the moment that you can buy one of those at the airport gift shop for $1.75, there’s also the question of what message it sends. On one hand it could mean “We Muslims mean Christians no harm.” Or it could mean “Neener neener – you have been our bitch since before Columbus was a zygote!” I think it could go either way."
This is the response I posted to his blog:
Scott,
I read the same article early this morning and posted this message to another blog I frequent:
"The Milliyet newspaper said President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, who invited the Pope to Turkey, will present him with a copy of the imperial order for tolerance issued by the Ottoman Sultan who seized Istanbul from the Christian Byzantine Greeks in 1453.
WTF? Code speak for "see how tolerant Turks have/can be once you non-believers get yourselves subdued?" -end post [to JW above]
Obviously “Neener neener – you have been our bitch since before Columbus was a zygote!” explains why you have FANS following you around the world and why I just have fans stationed around my house.
Alls well,
Infidel Babe
____________________
Anyway,
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect intended us to forgo humor; at least not infidels.
at November 28, 2006 5:17 PM
THE ALLIES SHALL WIN,
I've asked this question before when this subject comes up, and I still haven't received a satisfactory answer. You wrote:
"There were millions of Christians (armenians,Greeks, jews) before 20th cent. they were massacred in the name of allah."
Before the 20th century, those Christians were still under Muslim rule (Ottoman Empire). This fact implies, therefore, that Christians thrived before, while still under Muslim rule.
So at the very least, that fact implies that some Muslim regimes (pre-20th century Ottoman) are better (or worse) than other Muslim regimes (20th-century crypto-Muslim rule of "secular" Turkey).
Posted by: remote_control at November 28, 2006 5:34 PM
Serbian girl,
yes i come from Serbia.
I fully disagree with you. You see, "an eye for an eye" leaves the whole world blind". What makes us different from them is that we need to respond to Jesus's call to not respond to voilence with voilence. I would at any time choose kingdom values, rather than earthly values. Heck, Serbs don't need Bosnia nor Kosovo for anything. So what if they destroy our churches and monasteries? I really beleive that Serbs in general have erroneously reduced their Christianity to worship of saints, 12th century rituals and in general know very little about Jesus. 60 years of communism has robbed the Serbs of developing our religion, and Serbs first need to get to know God, only then the choice will be obvious.
Matt 5:43-48
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
at November 28, 2006 5:36 PM
Attacking us (anti-jihadists) by pointing out the internal dissentions in the history of Christianity does not absolve Islam and its progenitor Mohammed from the truth as stated by the Byzantine Emperor ManuelII Paleologus.
Now, am no fan of the Byzantine empire nor of its emperors, however, the words of Manuel II Paleologus ring as true today as they did when he voiced them--not in a hysterical outburst of hate, but in a measured, rational discussion with a Moslem.
These words are so to the point that I cannot refrain from repeating them every opportunity that presents itself. Hence:
“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
My point is that attacking the schisms within Christianity does not obliterate the truth: Islam is evil, inhuman, and is supposed to be spread by violence, according to its founder. Existence as a subhuman (only for "people of the book") or death are the alternatives to submission to this hodgepodge of inane ramblings of an aging pedophile.
None of these three choices is acceptable. Therefore, Islam, and those trying to force it on us, are the enemy.
at November 28, 2006 5:47 PM
Still Fedup,
I don´t think it is appropriate to use this rude language and call Naseem names. Yes, I believe that someone who studied in UK could go back to filthy Pakistan, if he/she is brainwashed enough, which she seems to be. The same way it is possible that Moslems born in UK, people who enjoyed all that England can offer, well established in the society and with fine jobs, can turn agains the coutry that was so kind to them and kill many people. I think we don´t do us a favour, if we assume that Muslims are simply stupid, it seems to me that the problem with Moslems is much more their Herrenmensch-ideology, based on Kuran. Yes, it makes stupid in certain sense of the word.
Branislav, I thought you will answer this way and I respect it, only I don´t believe it will ever lead to victory (on earth). I am happy if you only take into consideration a possiblity that Serbs fogive so fast and easily to their declared dead enemies and tend to choose the kingdom values, because, possibly, they lack selfrespect (historically, easy to explain why, they have in many aspects internalized their dhimmi status, so two souls live in each Serb, one wants to resist, fight, revenge, the other one to succumb and have some peace, explaining why we sometimes fight like mad and sometimes give up things no-one even expect).
BTW, I also thought that it is communism that robbed Serbs of Christianity , but I have changed my mind, during my recent trip to Ukraine. I was astonished and deeply touched to see so many people in the churches (old and young, oldfashioned and ultra stylish), - I´ve never seen this in Serbia. And they had communism for much longer. We should not be blaming even communism for everything. They seem to like the 12. century rituals and saints and that this is doing good to their country (Kiev is one of the most beautiful cities in Europe).
I see you would like to see some sort of reformation within Serbian brand of Christianity. Hm, I am not sure I share this, ever. Worship of saints is widespread elsewhere too and it is a nice custom, helping preservation of Christianity, - if you don´t want to travel to Ukraine, travel to Bavaria and see how nicely it works in this lovely and successful country, which is a Sillicon Valey of Germany (and they worship much more saints, in Serbia is just the family Slava, one saint per family, very moderate, or?)...Hey, what is wrong with 12th century rituals?, - Serbs are not protestants who adjust the Christian rituals to accomodate all sorts of contemporary needs, including gay marriages, baptism of cats and dogs and alike... )
But we´re drifting away from the topic: Pope visit to Turkey. I´m also deeply disapponted to hear , he is supporting Turkeys entry to EU and praising Turkey as a secular country. I can hardly believe it, we all put so much hope in this Pope. One more reason that Serbia doesn´t join the EU, now that really everybody (Turkey today, tomorrow Kazahstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan...) is about to do it. Than we are in a better company , with Switzerland, Norway and few others that haven´t completely lost their brains.
Posted by: Serbian girl at November 29, 2006 5:37 AM
Serbian girl,
Welcome to JW/DW. You bring a new perspective about the eastern side of Europe, which I have a lot more hope for, because knowing what the horrors of dictatorship is like they do not want anything to do with Islamism.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 29, 2006 7:24 AM
thank you big cat girl!
Posted by: Serbian girl at November 29, 2006 8:14 AM
Serbian girl,
i agree with you that any growth in Christianity is a good one, and to argue wether Ortodox or Protestant or Catholic for that matter is better than one another is pointless. Each way has it's good points, and that is all that matters.
Back on the topic of Pope, he is doing major PR dhimmitude, and i also lost all hope in him.
Posted by: Branislav at November 29, 2006 8:51 AM
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