I hate to say it, but the Pope is naive if he expects a dialogue from the muslims. They'd rather kill him. But at least he's trying to reach out to them, which is more than what they're doing.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 28, 2006 10:38 AM

This brotherhood is like that of Cain and Able.

Posted by: Black Dog at November 28, 2006 10:39 AM

Going-my-way bomfoggery: Brotherhood of Man, Fatherhood of God. It has its points, I suppose. But not now. And not there.

Taylorism at the Watertown Arsenal. Bomfoggery in Istanbul. Whole lot of hopefulness with Unintended Consequences.

Posted by: Hugh at November 28, 2006 10:43 AM

Hugh,

You crack me up! LOL

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at November 28, 2006 10:48 AM

Somehow, I don't see this trip by the Pope as changing anything regarding relations with those peaceful ones. But at least he can leave there with a feeling that he made an effort to reach out to them. The rest will be up to them.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 28, 2006 10:50 AM

Can we trust the news sources to tell us what the Pope actually says?

I hope he prays everywhere he goes, God only has to know. I assume the Pope is allowed to pray in his heart.

Off topic: But how do muslims use bomb sniffing dogs. Didn't Mo tell them to stay away from dogs?
I can see why, my Border Collie can sense evil people in a heartbeat. I have many stories of her doing so in her 17yrs. Saved me trouble more than once.

Posted by: auntbea at November 28, 2006 11:13 AM

We can only hope they have a fail-safe vetting procedure for those snipers. As if such a thing exists...

Posted by: Null at November 28, 2006 11:18 AM

I am genuinely concerned for the safety of the Pontiff.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2006 11:34 AM

Going-my-way bomfoggery: Brotherhood of Man, Fatherhood of God. It has its points, I suppose. But not now. And not there.

I absolutely agree. It says in scripture

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 28, 2006 11:38 AM

God Bless Pope Benedict...

I hope two things are accomplished on this trip;

one; to bring the Eastern Church and the the Catholic Church closer together in light of the islamic hatred for both, and

two; to once again put the "ball in their court." The Pope is a smart man, and although I don't believe his "Brotherhood and Dialogue" desire will be accepted by islam, it will surely put the spotlight on so-called "moderate" muslims to finally stand and be heard, or it will show the true nature of their religion (again.)

Another observation; the mainstream media this morning (CBS specifically) downplaying the anti-Pope crowds saying it was a small group of about 10k instead of the reported 20k-25k. They also noted that most people in Turkey couldn't care less about the Pope's visit, and those who did care were more interested in the Pope's resistance to Turkey joining the EU than to his speech about "mohammed."

Let's see how the rest of the trip pans out, and I hope he remains safe.

Posted by: Gotham at November 28, 2006 11:44 AM

I think this is a magnificent gesture by Pope Benedict XVI.
He is leading from the front.
While doing what he can to create dialogue with Islam, with the hope of peace and reconciliation, however slim that hope might be, he is setting an example by showing fortitude and courage in the face of threats.

I read somewhere the other week that he recently addressed his Cardinals, telling them that the red color of their robes symbolized martyrdom.
He has not allowed the threats to his life to cow him and is showing a real faith in God.

Posted by: Mike_W at November 28, 2006 11:45 AM

I would suggest a great migration...all Muslims out of EU countries move to Turkey and all Christians in Turkey move to EU countries. And then no more Muslim migration to EU countries...and no Turkey in the EU. If someone becomes Muslim in the EU they can move to Turkey. Start the Reconquista.

Pope to meet angry Muslims, oppressed Christians
1st visit to Islamic land after his controversial remarks in Germany

Posted: November 28, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Mary Jo Anderson
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

Pope Benedict XVI
As multiple "popemobiles" follow decoy routes through the streets of Istanbul, police boats zip across the Bosphorus and snipers pace along the roofs of ancient buildings, drama worthy of a Hollywood thriller precedes the arrival of Pope Benedict XVI in Turkey today for a visit in which he will be met by angry Muslims and the leader of oppressed Christians.
An estimated 30,000 Islamic protesters gathered to demonstrate Sunday against the head of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics. The pro-Islamic political parties that organized the event say Benedict insulted Islam in his Sept.12 speech at Regensburg, Germany. "Go home" chanted student members of the Felicity political party that threatened to bus in 75,000 demonstrators for the pope's visit.

Benedict is traveling to Turkey at the invitation of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, spiritual leader of 250 million Orthodox Christians worldwide. The two will celebrate the feast day liturgy of Andrew the apostle, the brother of Peter. Tradition holds Andrew founded the Christian faith in Asia Minor, building a church in the city known as Byzantium – later Constantinople, now Istanbul.

(Story continues below)

The ecumenical patriarchate of Constantinople is the head of the communion of Eastern churches, including the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox churches.

The Orthodox communion broke away from Roman Catholicism in 1054 – the Great Schism – over matters of papal primacy and points of doctrine. Pope John Paul II fostered a great affection and concern for "the other lung of the church," despite the divisions that remain between them. Both churches seek reunion.

'Do you doubt that we live in dhimmitude?'

The pope and the patriarch are sure to discuss the plight of the Orthodox in Turkey where issues of religious tolerance and freedom chafe against their daily lives. The Orthodox are not permitted to freely elect their leadership. Turkish law determines who is eligible to be elected ecumenical patriarch, confining potential candidates to Turkish citizens who reside in Turkey.

According to an Orthodox source, "The result of these restrictions is that in the not-so-distant future, the ecumenical patriarchate may not be able to elect a patriarch."

Currently the Orthodox in Turkey, including the highest level of the patriarchate itself, are prohibited from owning property. Recently the Turkish government confiscated an Orthodox seminary and an orphanage. Even the books for Orthodox schools come under Turkish scrutiny.

"Do you doubt that we live in dhimmitude?" scoffed an Orthodox physician.

Partly for this reason, Bartholomew I is anxious to promote Turkey's membership in the European Union. Such membership would force Turkey to observe the EU laws on religious freedom.

The patriarch plans to urge the pope to relax his views on Turkey's membership in the EU.

"It is not wrong for Turkey to become a member of the EU as a Muslim country because it would bring mutual richness," he said.

Much is at stake in the historic visit – the first visit of Pope Benedict XVI to an Islamic nation. Among Muslim nations, Turkey is considered the most moderate religiously, and its secular government ardently hopes to become the first Islamic member of the European Union. However, in recent years radical political groups have gained power in this nation of 70 million where 98 percent of the population is Muslim.

Tuesday, the pontiff will arrive in Ankara, the nation's capital, to discuss political and religious concerns with the president, Necdet Sezer, and outspoken Islamic cleric, Ali Bardakoglu, head of Turkey's Religious Affairs Directorate.

In September, Bardakoglu publicly denounced the pope and suggested the pontiff cancel his trip to Turkey. The source of Bardakoglu's ire was Benedict's speech to scholars at Regensburg in which the pope quoted from a 14th century text that denounced Muhammad's decree – that the Islamic faith could be forced with the sword – as "evil and inhumane."

Within hours of the address in Regensburg, priests in Islamic countries were murdered and churches were burned. Muslims "protesting" the speech – because it insulted their "peaceful" religion – shot an African nun in the back. Threats were made against the life of the pope.

Western commentators rushed to report the pope had apologized, but a careful reading of the official remarks show he expressed "regret" that "some were offended" by the text that had been cited.

Just days ago in Ankara, Bardakoglu declared, "I think the attitude the pope should take is that neither Islam nor Christianity is a source of violence."

That comment prompted one Vatican watcher to quip, "Then Ali Bardakoglu should instruct his imams to behave peacefully."

Bardakoglu oversees the work of 100,000 Islamic clerics along with their lectures and teachings.

In addition to the awkwardness between the pope and Turkish officials following Regensburg, there is the matter of Turkey's proposed EU membership.

As Cardinal Ratzinger, before his election to the papacy, he advised Europeans that an Islamic Turkey was incompatible with European culture and legal traditions.

When questioned about the compatibility of the EU and his country, Ali Bardakoglu responded: "The European Union as a Christian club would pave the way for other similar groupings that would seriously hurt the cause of world peace. For that reason, I think it important that the EU be based on common values rather than religion."

While the secular Western press speculates the pontiff will be "seeking to mend fences" after Regensburg, the reality is likely very different. The pope will participate in the usual public gestures and overtures, such as a photo op at Istanbul's famous Blue Mosque, but stop short of kissing the Quran as John Paul II did in 1999 as a gesture of respect. The cognocenti speculate Benedict has a new angle of view – less about accommodation of Muslim sensitivities and more about an engagement of the Islamic intellect on matters of truth.

'Offensive' lecture

James V. Schall, S.J., professor of government at Georgetown University, analyzed the "offensive" Regensburg lecture.

He noted, "The pope was given the occasion to speak in an academic lecture format the truth about something that concerns us all, including Muslims themselves. Before any action can take place, understanding must come first. This is where the really difficult work lies. The lack of a serious effort first to understand the validity of Islam's claims about itself has resulted in a political confusion about what to do about it. Unless one's theology is straight, one's politics probably will be skewered. The central issue is not about 'terrorism,' … but about whether Islam, or many of its followers, thinks that it is their right and duty to use terror to further their religious goals."

Others concur. After Regensburg, an opinion piece appeared in the Asia Times saying, "But of greater weight is the pope's observation that Allah is a god whose 'absolute transcendence' allows no constraint, to the point that Allah is free if he chooses to promote evil."

Christian theologians are careful to point out that the Christian God is constrained – constrained by love for man. This is precisely the dialogue some say Benedict fully intended to open in public. They point to his first papal encyclical, "God is Love."

"In a world where the name of God is sometimes associated with vengeance or even a duty of hatred and violence," he wrote, "this message (that God is love) is both timely and significant."

Posted by: Abby at November 28, 2006 11:57 AM

I don't wanna' be THEIR brother.

Posted by: MP at November 28, 2006 12:11 PM

Re: Pope preaches brotherhood on Turkey trip

Gandhi once said that "when Muslims talk about the brotherhood of man, what they really mean is the brotherhood of Muslims". The Pope might learn something from Mr. Gandhi's experience on the matter.

Posted by: Frank at November 28, 2006 12:54 PM

Sorry pope- we didn't want a 'brotherhood' with Nazis, and we sure as heck don't want a 'brotherhood' with Islamic terrorists- aint gonna happen- while you may be optomistic, the plain clear fact is that it will NEVER happen- you're wasting your breath on dogs that want nothing but our conversion to their murderous ideology. Get with the program. http://sacredscoop.com

Posted by: CottShop at November 28, 2006 1:05 PM

Sort of OT, but this article about Sudan's "president" citing Protocols-like Israeli & Jewish manipulation to exaggerate the magnitude of the Darfur genocide is too classic/pathetic to miss. As Robert so expertly demonstrates in "The Truth About Mohammed", blaming the Jews as corruptors has its model/precedent in that tome of hate, The Koran. I curse the Warlord (Mo', that is) each & every day for all the lies/hatred/violence, etc. my fellow Jews (and Christians) must endure on his behalf... But I digress. Read it all:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378504117&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Sudan's president spews anti-Semitism

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Byers, Special to The Jerusalem Post, THE JERUSALEM POST Nov. 28, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sudan's President Field Marshal Omar Hassan Ahmed al-Bashir claimed Tuesday that reports in western newspapers of hundreds of thousands dead in his country's brutal civil war are all part of an Israeli-led worldwide conspiracy.

In a rambling video-link interview from Khartoum, in which he connected with journalists based in eight different countries, al-Bashir also claimed fatality levels in Darfur were "less than 9,000," instead of a figure of upwards of 400,000 quoted in much of the media, and accepted by the United Nations.

Al-Bashir asserted that all talk of a serious conflict - and accusations that his Government has supported, trained and armed the brutal Arab Janjaweed militia, which has displaced, raped and robbed an estimated 2.5 million people in Darfur - were a western conspiracy engineered by Israel to divert attention from the conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Palestinian territories.

He also blamed Chad for financing and sponsoring the rebels, and denied any responsibility for supporting the Janjaweed.

However, just hours after his interview, which included answering questions of this Jerusalem Post correspondent based in Berlin, aid agencies revealed the true scale of the horror in Darfur.

Speaking to the Post from another Berlin press conference, Vincent Hoedt, who was last year the head of mission in Darfur for the Medecins Sans Frontiers agency, said parts of Darfur were now out of bounds to his agency because staff fear attack from the multitude of tribal forces engaged in the conflict. He revealed that 17 Medicins Sans Frontiers were beaten up recently by tribes ordering the evacuation of a village, and said there had been "incredible" casualties.

The conflict, in the Darfur region of western Sudan, is mainly being fought between the Janjaweed and the other, mostly land-tilling tribes, of the region. The Sudanese Government is accused in participating in joint attacks with the Janjaweed, systematically targeting the Fur, Zaghawa, and Massaleit ethnic groups in Darfur. It started in 2003.

In statements that appeared to be more in keeping with 1920s anti-Semitism than statesmanship, Field Marshal al-Bashir added that Israeli influence was at the center of the conflict, and all the world's disputes.

"You cannot at all rule out the Israeli role in any problem that any Arab country is facing because the security of Israel is based on weakening Arab states," he said.

"Israel would do everything through their media and their different mechanisms - you can't deny they have such influence in circles all over the world so they can do what they want."

Appearing to believe that western media are controlled by their governments, Field Marshal al-Bashir claimed that America and Britain had asked Sudan to recognize Israel and hinted negative coverage of the Darfur conflict could stop as a result.

"Since we took power, these messages have never stopped. They (America, Britain and Israel) would like to divert the Arabs from the central cause of the Arabs, which is Palestine.

"This is a camouflage for what is happening in Iraq, in Palestine, in Afghanistan."

Field Marshal al-Bashir also refused to call in outside help from the United Nations, claiming the organization is infiltrated by western agents from the US and Britain, and praised Saddam Hussein's regime for creating a country which contained "the best Arab citizens in terms of livelihood and stability."

However, Mr. Hoedt - now in Amsterdam coordinating the Sudanese mission having returned from Sudan himself six months ago - said in a one-on-one interview at the end of a Berlin press conference yesterday that evidence from aid agencies' experiences was that there must have been hundreds of thousands of casualties, although there are no exact figures. Hoedt confirmed that the aid agencies' ability to do their work is being hampered by growing hostility.

"We came to the conclusion that incredible numbers must have died, but (whether that is) 200,000, 300,000 or 400,000, we do not know," he said.

Hoedt added that growing hostility towards all foreigners meant that Medecins Sans Frontiers was struggling to do its work. "Seventeen of our staff, who were working with displaced people in southern Darfur, got beaten up when rebels evacuated the area," he said.

"Darfur is a difficult place to work. We do get affected by a lot of menace, a lot of robberies and threats to our security."

He added that the Government's coordination with aid agencies was limited, and there was widespread suspicion about Medecins Sans Frontiers' motive, adding that Medecins Sans Frontiers was now completely unable to work in the northern part of western Darfur, and the southern part of northern Darfur because the dangers to them were too great.

Hoedt, who was temporarily imprisoned in Sudan for a day last year for writing an article revealing the rape of Sudanese women by Arab tribesmen, added that belief in a western conspiracy was rife in Sudan.

"People asked us whether we were also working in Lebanon after the recent war, and we said: 'Of course we are,' and they were amazed. 'So you are helping Arabs too,' they said. This kind of reaction is pretty common."

Posted by: Dum Dhimmi Dum Dum Dum at November 28, 2006 1:12 PM

I seriously doubt any brotherhood is going to happen.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 28, 2006 1:12 PM

you know what? The Pope is one stand-up guy. I'm impressed. He's up to the task.

I have hope for the future of Catholicism after all. It is the one thing that's worked against Islam in the past. It will be able to fight it off again. After all, this is more a jihad of ideology than a World War as we in the free world understand the term.

Politics & Polemics and 'Pologetics are where this battle will be won.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at November 28, 2006 1:28 PM

His Holiness has holy guts thats for sure. God's blessing on him.

As for "brotherhood" between Islam and Christianity (or any other real faith) --the "brotherhood" is that of ruthless hate and tyranny ("kill the unbelievers whereever you find them") with that of honest sprituality ("love your neighbor as yourself").

What brotherhood does darkness have with light?
evil with good?
Islam's hate with Christian brotherly love?

Muhammed never made a doctrine of brother love towareds the world only a doctrine of "sharing the war booty" among the muslim 'brethern' like when they invaded the Hagia Sophia and took little girls away from their moms to rape them as spoils of war.

quote from fall of constantinople wikepedia article:

"After the doors were breached, the troopes separated the congregation according to what price they might bring on the slave markets. A few of the elderly and some infants were summarily slain with a commercial ruthlessness. Soldiers fought over the possession of richly clad senators or for the comely youth or maiden."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 28, 2006 2:22 PM

You have to give credit where credit is due. This Pope forced an about face from Turkey's government and forced Erdogan to eat some crow.

Let's face it Turkey's leadership had no desire to greet the Pope, but was forced to if they wanted to look tolerant in Europe.

We all know it's a smoke screen, but I love seeing the Turkish bullies being bullied right now.

The historic meeting that's going to take place between the Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch is nothing but a God send for all Orthodox Christians under siege in Turkey.

The real problem here is for the future of Orthodox Christians as they are being forced out of existence in Turkey. By Turkish law the Orthodox Patriarch can only be a Turkish born citizen, and we can see by simple demographics, and intolerant policies this position will be impossible to fill in the near future.

Let's just hope that Europeans on the fence don't get sucked in by Turkey's fake front.

Niv

Posted by: The fanatic at November 28, 2006 2:36 PM

Talking about the 'brotherhood of man', to muslims is pointless. Talk is cheap. Muslims just laugh at that kind of rhetoric.
Frank and Gandhi are right, the 'true brotherhood of man' consists only of muslims. I am not Catholic and as far as I am concerned, he does not represent 'all' of Christianity...only the Catholic part.
He cant make 'brotherhood' in my name, I am with MP on that one:I don't wanna' be THEIR brother.

Posted by: duh_swami at November 28, 2006 2:37 PM

This wonderful if misguided man evidently doesn't comprehend that Islam is homicidal by design or that he is probably regarded as a legitimate target for death by many Muslims. In these times, this otherwise excellent man could very well end up being assassinated by Muslims or Muslim-hired assassins. His advisors should keep him from visiting any more of the Islamosphere as it will likely be a long time, if ever, that this region will be safe for Christians and their clergymen to visit.

I do not care to see this or any other pope become a real martyr (as opposed to an Islamic 'martyr').

Posted by: pythagoras at November 28, 2006 2:59 PM

The Pope is there for the Orthodoxes, and to promote missionary work. Dialogue is essentially a form... of Al Taqiya.

Posted by: roguereligion at November 28, 2006 3:09 PM

His Holiness is trying to kill them with kindness. l rather have a better way.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 28, 2006 4:50 PM