The Pope is a real diplomat.

Posted by: Josephine at November 29, 2006 9:01 AM

I can't wait until he gets back to the Vatican. Then I want to see what was said during and about this trip.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 29, 2006 9:23 AM

Well, there you go, my Catholic friends. Islam is a religion of peace. So says your infallible Pope.

What smug sense of satisfaction this must give muslims, to hear this. As if they weren't cocky enough.

Posted by: August22 at November 29, 2006 9:25 AM

"It started beautifully: the Pope told the world from Ankara that Islam was a religion of peace," the mainstream Hurriyet newspaper said.
--------

OH, MY, GOD!!!! The Pope lied!

I wish he could go back to his earlier stance:

Pope won't call Islam religion of peace
'I would not like to use big words to apply generic labels'

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 29, 2006 9:30 AM

"It started beautifully: the Pope told the world from Ankara that Islam was a religion of peace," the mainstream Hurriyet newspaper said.

I'll believe the Pope said it when I hear it from his own mouth, not from a secondary muslim source. If there is one thing we all know by now, the muslim press is, to put it mildly, less than accurate. (Come to think of it, much of the Western press is, too.) I don't want to jump to any conclusions about what Benedict said until I read it from a reliable source.

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 29, 2006 9:46 AM

Pope Benedict had better get tough; tough on militant islam, and tough on religious anarchy.

We'll soon see is he has the cajones.......

Posted by: n.a. palm at November 29, 2006 10:34 AM

I wonder: were his comments about the slain priest decried in Turkey, and in which quarter?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 29, 2006 10:42 AM

I'm with "Islamisforlosers"...I too, can't wait to see what was really said when he get's back to the Vatican.

And by the way, what's with the Anti-Catholic crap here?? I don't see Pat Robinson, Ted Haggard, Dr. James Kennendy, Tim Lahaye, or any other of your so called christian leaders, trying to do anything about the problem we call islam. Have any of them met with people like the Holy Father has? I haven't seen it.

So quit the Anti-Catholic crap. Atleast HE is trying to do something about.

And yes, the Vicar of Christ is Infallible. Deal with it.

Posted by: RegularRon at November 29, 2006 10:58 AM

RegularRon, I'm Catholic. I just don't appreciate the Vicar of Christ saying that islam is a religion of peace since it's clearly not. As for Pat Robertson, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TsDmHhzWks

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 29, 2006 11:12 AM

One world religion ground work, his predecessor kissed the Koran calling it a 'holy book', guess that means he holds in "esteem" all it preaches.

Posted by: bondservant at November 29, 2006 11:26 AM

Elias...I have a hard time believing a turkish rep. quoting the Holy Father.

"One world religion ground work, his predecessor kissed the Koran calling it a 'holy book', guess that means he holds in "esteem" all it preaches."

If I wanted to read shit crap, I'd head on over to RaptureReady.com, or BibleBelivers.com. Not here, at Jihad Watch.

Again, quit the ANTI-CATHOLIC crap. It's getting disgusting to read it here.

Posted by: RegularRon at November 29, 2006 11:30 AM

Oh and I just viewed the Pat Robinson clip. I agree with him, but then again as I said...I don't see him meeting with Leaders of Countrys, as I do see the Holy Father meeting others.

He can say whatever he wants here in America to his followers. But it doesn't hold much water across the world. For the Holy Fathers words, they carry so much water that it's over flowing.

90% (i'm generalizing, i'm sure someone will give me some biblical verse and tell me i'm wrong) of the Born Again/Fundementalist leaders and followers are here in America. Roman Catholics are worldwide.

The Holy Father has much more on his plate then all of these folks combined.

I'm only here to read about the Comic Book Death Cult. But I feel that it's also being combined into an Anti-Catholic bashing site as well.

Posted by: RegularRon at November 29, 2006 11:43 AM

I'm only here to read about the Comic Book Death Cult. But I feel that it's also being combined into an Anti-Catholic bashing site as well.
Posted by: RegularRon
---------

Not really. Robert Spencer himself is Catholic. It's just that some of us (even Catholics) are somewhat annoyed that the Pope has done a u-turn and seems to be going the same way his predecessor did.

But it could be that the turkish media is making up lies just to satisfy the turks. We'll see how it all turns out when the Pope comes back.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 29, 2006 12:08 PM

"Well, there you go, my Catholic friends. Islam is a religion of peace. So says your infallible Pope.

Posted by August22

First of all, if you knew the slightest thing about the Catholic Church you love to bash, you would know that nothing the Pope said or will say during his time in Turkey has anything the slightest bit to do with "infallibility". Actually - and this is according to authoritative canonical reckoning - the number of "infallible" statements made by Popes in the entire history of the Papacy numbers a grand total of two (2) over the entire span of over two thousand years!

Even more appalling is how many anti-Catholics out there appear to hate Catholicism even more than Islam. You people are willing to jump all over the Pope because of a report from the Turkish press conveyed by the Guardian? How terrible for all of you. Shameful.

August22: Careful not to make a fool of yourself over this like you did over August 22.

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 12:13 PM

One final thought, August22:

If you keep this sort of thing up, you may eventually have to follow the advice given by another poster after August 22 passed without incident by changing your online name to "Oops!"

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 12:22 PM

Getting a wee bit defensive, aren't we? Your Pope, that dhimmi, just said Islam is a religion of peace.

Deal with it.

He is not only not infallible, he is now part of the problem facing the west. And even in the Vatican, he is considered too conservative. The catholic church is a huge disappointment on this issue.

This is jihadwatch, not we-must-excuse-the-popewatch. Anyone whos makes a statement like "Islam is a religion of peace" deserves our contempt as a traitor to the west. Especially if he is a pope. He is also a traitor to his own faith.

Don't let your catholic religious affiliation blind you to the dhimmification of your pope, because then you are letting the emotion of your religion cloud your judgement, just like the muslims.

We are anti-islam here, not pro-catholic. I'll take a fiery Pat Robertson over the Pope anyday.

Posted by: August22 at November 29, 2006 1:25 PM

The Pope's supposed reference to Islam as a religion of peace is not a direct quote from the Pope, but comes from a Turkish newspaper. I agree with Howard, Fine and Howard: the newspaper might be putting words into the Pope's mouth.

Where the Pope's words do seem to be quoted directly, they are directed towards "religious leaders of all faiths to 'utterly refuse' to support any form of violence in the name of faith." Personally, I think that if these words are indeed Benedict's, that he remains on message and hasn't wavered a bit. His words then persist in putting the point to the Moslem world: renounce violence. Remeber: He's doing this in Turkey. He's doing this at the site of yet another murder of a non-Moslem at the hands of Moslem fanatics. He's calling for "authentic dialogue," presumably something more substantial than the usual mealy-mouthed hypocrisies that are now so readily associated with Islamic Da'wa.

One thing I don't understand and am alarmed at is Benedict's putative support of Turkey's entry into the EU. If he has changed his position, I'd sure like to know why.

Posted by: Chatillon at November 29, 2006 1:29 PM

August22 perhaps you don't see them trying because they realize that you can NOT 'dialogue' with these people EVER- Yes, it is admirable that the pope holds out hope, however, soem of the things that are reported that he said really aint cool IF he indeed did say them- that is what people are responding to. Even though some of us dissagree with Catholic teaching, it does NOT mean we are 'anti-Catholic'- that was a little harsh to suggest it. http://www.statcounter.com/

Posted by: CottShop at November 29, 2006 2:30 PM

August22:

I'm not defensive at all, just saddened at your unbelievable naivete, inability or unwillingness to learn from earlier mistakes and incomprehension of verifiable facts. You are willing to accept at face value something said by a source that should lack all credibility in your eyes, and to cast ill will towards people who are your allies. You will believe any sort of trash talk from Muslims as an excuse to bash Catholics. How bizarre!

Consider what was said yesterday by Turkey's Erdogan as compared to the actual position of the Pope on Turkey's entry into the European Union. The truth about what was said and what it means is not difficult at all to find. Check it out here:

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/post/index/600/Turkey-PM-pope-backs-our-entry-into-EU

No, this is not a "we-must-excuse-the-pope" site, but it also is not a "let's-rush-to-bash-the-pope" site, either. All I'm saying about any of this at this point is that we should see if the claim made by the the Guardian and Hurriyet is true before denouncing the Pope. As a regular Jihadwatch reader you of all people should know that the Turkish media can not be trusted. You should wait until the texts of the relevant comments are available and check them out before you make your comments instead of falling all over yourself to spread Muslim propaganda - or use it to advance other agendas - as soon as it appears. If the authoritative sources verify the claims made by Islamic disinformation spreaders and their MSM sympathizers then I will join the ranks of the Pope's critics, but so far there is no reason to think that anything they've said, including the Pope's supposed praise of Islam as a "religion of peace", is actually true, and the known facts, present and historical, suggest that they probably are not.

As for your preference for "fiery" preachers like Pat Robertson, tell me why some of these chicken hawks don't go to Turkey or other Islamic countries like the Pope has now done and see what they can accomplish over there with their rhetoric? Perhaps they find it much easier to stay at home and demonstrate their courageous witness by making all sorts of noise from a safe distance rather than taking any risks by going there as Benedict has. Benedict's moderate, steady and even-handed style may not appeal to your well-known and totally twisted love of the smell of blood (as long as its not your blood, I'm sure) but it has been extremely effective against his opponents in the past going back to his days as head of the Holy See's doctrinal department, if not earlier.

This brings me to another point that you should consider well for your own eternal good: you are clearly too uninformed about Catholicism to evaluate the Pope's integrity or the quality of his adherence or loyalty to the Catholic faith. You are neither intellectually nor morally qualified to do this. If you want to be bold enough to engage in any of this, you have a lot of homework to do first.

Finally, your hysterical use of terms like "traitor" prior to verifying the facts of the situation demonstrates poor judgement, incites division among people who should be intelligently working together, impedes productive discussion and calls your own sound judgement into question.

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 2:40 PM

lol i just noticed I posted link to statcounter- Doh- please ignore- meant to leave http://sacredscoop.com instead

Posted by: CottShop at November 29, 2006 2:40 PM

Templar, if anyone else was quoted as saying that islam was a religion of peace, would you be here proposing the theory that they were misquoted? No. But because it is the Pope, you hope that is the case and denounce those who don't take such a naive view.

The Pope already has a track record of pack pedaling because of the furor caused. He has made many statements to the effect that he was misunderstood, that islam is peaceful, that he has no negative opinion of mohammad, etc.. How do you explain all those? Was he misquoted then, too?

Making personal remarks against me, or any other poster critical of the Pope, does not in any way argue your case that the Pope is not a dhimmi. Those are leftist and muslim tactics. You got angry that your holy leader was criticized so you behaved like a muslim would behave rallying around Mohammad. At least you didn't call for my head to be choppped off. But the religious instinct to defend the holy leader, akin to the muslim instinct, was still there.

As a non-catholic and a non-muslim, I have no holy leader to defend. Nor would I want one. I therefore am able to call a spade a spade if such a spade says "islam is a religion of peace".

And if that is a Turkish lie, and he never said such a thing, let the Pope come out and say it was a lie. Surely, that is not asking too much.

Posted by: August22 at November 29, 2006 3:00 PM

Chatillon:

I refer you to the same link I posted for August22.

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/post/index/600/Turkey-PM-pope-backs-our-entry-into-EU

Interested in your interpretation, but to me this seems like a very ambiguous statement at the most - hardly a committment to advocating Turkey's entry into the EU at all. The words "encourages the road of dialogue and of moving toward integration" are non-specific enough to mean just about anything, and "on the basis of common values and principles" sounds like the transformation of Turkey along European lines as much as any eventual admission to the EU. To me the whole thing reads like an empty diplomatic platitude offered to the Turks to mollify them a bit, likely, I would think to make them more amenable on questions of religious freedom, etc.

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 3:07 PM

The pope didn't say 'Islam is a religion of peace' anywhere in the article. The newspaper said that the Pope said this...

What he did say:
"Let us sing joyfully, even when we're tested by difficulties and dangers, as we have learned from the fine witness given by the Roman priest John Andrea Santoro, whom I am pleased to recall in this celebration."

A Turkish teenager shot the priest as he knelt in prayer in his church in the Black Sea port of Trabzon. The February attack occurred amid widespread Muslim anger over the cartoons. Two other Catholic priests were attacked in Turkey this year....
[...]

On the first day of his trip, Benedict yesterday urged religious leaders of all faiths to "utterly refuse" to support any form of violence in the name of faith.

He also called for an "authentic dialogue" between Christians and Muslims based on "mutual esteem and respect."

The Pope is doing on fine set-up job on the Mo-foes. He's doing it humbly, but firmly. It's not up to him to issue ultimatums and threats.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at November 29, 2006 3:49 PM

Templar:

Thanks for that link. I hadn't seen the quote.

It is the Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan who first reports the Pope's interest in supporting Turkey's entry into the EU, while also stating that the Vatican has no political role in this process. The interesting thing, lost in Erdogan's version deliberately or inadvertently, is that such integration is to realized on the basis of "common values and principles," according to the words of the Vatican spokesman Father Lombardi spoken afterwards.

What those commonalities may be has yet to be determined. But as Benedict persists in calling for all religious leaders to renounce violence in the name of God, I can only conclude that he expects the Moslem world to accept this as a necessary principle for interactions between people of different religious traditions. Call it naivete. Call it faith. But as a condition to entry into the EU, it at least requires the Turks to openly reject jihad in its virulent form. We'll see how well that goes over.

Although I don't quite have that level of faith, I do recall commenting half-seriously elsewhere on JW/DW that Turkey's entry into the EU would at least allow a backflow of non-Moslems into Asia Minor, presumably under the protection of EU law. Unfortunately, the EU is so bureaucratic and its priorities so stilted that real protection for non-Moslem citizens in Turkey might not be much better than it was Theo van Gogh.

Posted by: Chatillon at November 29, 2006 3:52 PM

This Pope has shown himself to be an intelligent person and as such I don't think he could possibly fool himself into thinking of is-lame a "religion of peace"

Posted by: Rowane at November 29, 2006 3:54 PM

August22:

There you go again, spewing your ignorant comments against Catholicism.

Your hatred and blindness only reflects your syphilitic bigotry. You are no better than a Muslim. As a matter of fact, your lack of reasoning and reactionary posture make you very much like a Muslim: no pausing to think, reflect and weigh evidence.

It's moronic people like you who will permit Islam to triumph, with your kneejerk reactions and stupidly ignorant claims. Impolitic, arrogant, foolish - yup, just like a Muslim.

Posted by: atheling at November 29, 2006 3:59 PM

August22:

My defence of Pope Benedict is not because he is my spiritual leader, but because he is the only EUROPEAN leader, that I know of, to significantly and consistently oppose the PC line on Islam and to have clearly opposed Turkey's admission into the EU (remember this was his position since long before his election).

I was - and remain - a staunch critic of the last Pope (JPII) for a large variety of reasons, of which his weakness and pliability toward Islamic representatives, was only one. And if I think I have reason to, I will become a critic of this one too. But so far, everything I have read or heard of this pope doing, is consistent with what I would expect a good pope to do.

You accuse Benedict of backpedalling, but I just don't see that as being the case. He has said that he regrets that his words caused offence, but has not retracted what he said at Regensberg. Can you please cite the source, better yet quote the words (I'm sure they're available on the internet - definitely they'll be archived on the Vatican's website or at sites like www.chiesa.espressonline.it or www.zenit.org) in which he has said that Islam is peaceful. Actually, his position, to my knowledge, is that "we should not say that it is peaceful; there are SOME ELEMENTS in it that promote peace, but there are also others which do not" (Given, if memory serves correctly, as part of the answer to a question posed by one of his former students in a seminar he lead not long after his election as Pope). He has never, so far as I know, called Islam, as such, peaceful, but instead has gone out of his way to avoid characterizing it that way. If he has, or ever does say such a thing, or do anything else that scandalizes the Catholic faithful, then I will modify my view of him accordingly.

In regards to Mohammed, can you please specify the remarks you have in mind? Regardless, though, at this point I would simply caution you not to jump to global conclusions based on what would probably fairly nuanced and complex statements. Robert Spencer himself has stated that there were reputed aspects of Mohammed's character that were good. Some have noted that even Hitler had some good qualities, such as a certain compassionate way of dealing with the elderly, while also carefully noting that clearly the sum total of Hitler's character was that of a monster and psychopath. So anything the Pope has said about the person of Mohammed is something I'd read carefully, possibly more than once.

So it is not because, as you suggest, that I am in denial about the Pope simply because of his office and my religious convictions, that I make all these cautionary statements about not believing what the Turkish and MSM media alleges him to have said, but because these reports are completely out of character with Joseph Ratzinger has always said before and the historic record seems to provide ample reason for being skeptical of these Islamophile sources and their reporting.

LOL, I'm glad you notice the difference between me and the Jihadists in not calling for your head to be chopped off! In all seriousness though, I find it surprizing that you don't recognize the ethic of self-effacement and forbearance that is at the heart of Christianity as the reason for the Pope's moderate methods, that you attribute his actions instead to weakness. Normally, there is tremendous power to achieve change by moving people's consciences in this self-effacement and it is part of the Christian heritage of Western society that we exhaust all possibility of this method before moving toward major conflict such as all-out war. If Islam constitutes an impenetrable limit to such methods, then this has to be convincingly demonstrated before Christian moral thought can settle on the option for war instead.

I regret that you regard my last post as a personal attack. It is not. But you do seem to prefer force, confrontation and all out war - "killing on an industrial scale" as you've called it - as the method of choice, and are unwilling to see the need to first try more benign methods such as Benedict's diplomacy and moral appeals. The pacificism of the Christianity that resists war as other than a last resort when it is demonstrably clear that all other methods have failed, is part of the moral culture of the West, and if it is to remain the West that we've known historically we have to follow this moral tradition. I acknowledge that we must not shrink from more aggressive means, war included, if they prove necesary in the end, but historically speaking, we are still at an early stage of our encounter with the rise of Islam that we've seen since the 1960s and have to move only by increments toward "holy war" and only as a last resort, if at all.

As for why the Pope doesn't set the record straight about the remarks on EU admission, the Holy See has done this. But remember, as one attempting to engage in diplomacy, he can not simply come out and directly call his host a liar.

Anyway I hope this clears things up a bit. I'm sorry if my comments came across as a personal attack. This was not my intent at all. And in any case, you do make some good points at times which I admire, but I do think that you tend to reflexively criticize the Pope in ways that are unwarranted and that a bit more skepticism is needed toward that because the evidence, as much as I know of it, suggests that he is perhaps the only real solid ally that the West has in high office at the moment.

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 4:20 PM

Templar, if anyone else was quoted as saying that islam was a religion of peace, would you be here proposing the theory that they were misquoted? No. But because it is the Pope, you hope that is the case and denounce those who don't take such a naive view.

Posted by August22

I would if I thought I had reason to, and in fact ... I did.

A few weeks ago there was thread on this site (Dhimmiwatch) in which an Arab media source claimed that Prince Charles had stated that Islam has the answers to all the world's problems. That story turned out to be a complete distortion of what the prince had actually said. As soon as I saw the thread I immediately posted a comment calling on readers not to believe it until it was corroborated by reliable sources, which it never was.

On that occassion I defended a Protestant who is also a member of a royal house with a long history of anti-Catholic bigotry, so again I say, I am not prompted simply by some default Catholic bias.

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 4:53 PM

Maybe we should put this in simplistic terms because August22 apparently does not possess much "nuance."

If you were visiting someone's home, the owner of which who holds a knife at your brother's throat, would you start to scream polemical insults at that host?

Try to think about that for a while. I know it will be difficult, but try.

Posted by: atheling at November 29, 2006 5:01 PM

Howard Fine and the rest of you "I don't want to believe my eyes or ears crowd" google benedict mass turkey speech "religion of peace" and especially the Times on Line Article, you don't have to wait till he gets back to Rome.

And what a stupid idea.. with a tiny minority (some 90,000) Catholics in Turkey what makes you morons think that the Pope would say anything different in Rome than he did in Turkey...he isn't a two faced double speak Muslim.

What we have here folks are a lot of ostriches or is that a pack of "hear no, speak no, see no evil" monkeys.

Buck up and face reality.. the Pope is not going to enable Jihad or declare a war on Islam..or start another crusade.. the church has tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of it's people living under the Islamic thumb.. do you think the Pope is going to provoke the muslim at the expense of the vulnerable faithful? I don't.. that means of course Islam will win, but the church can survive dhimmitude, if anything the Church knows how to survive change, and it will do anything, anything it can, to survive..after all it survived 700 years of living under the Muslim thumb in Spain, Southern France, Sicily and the Orthodox Church survived (albeit barely) under Islamic rule in Greece, and the Balkans.

If survival means dhimmitude then the Pope is up to the job, as are the Orthodox, Marionite, Melkionite, Assyrian rite Christians.

Posted by: Nariz at November 29, 2006 6:22 PM

Respectful greetings from a noble American to the "President" of Iran,

You do not even realize how profoundly your religion has corrupted you. The "perfect" human being that you are expecting will NEVER come because you follow a FALSE prophet that has invented a FALSE god and in the ensuing years his followers have created the strangest religion earth has ever seen and one that is full of murder, mischief and mayhem. This explains why your part of the earth is full of violence and your letter is chock full of lies and distortions. It is not even worth reading. I suggest that until you come to your senses you shouldn't even bother writing such letters.

I will be praying for you and your kind to come out of your mass psychosis.

Posted by: JayFeltz at November 29, 2006 7:31 PM

"Howard Fine and the rest of you "I don't want to believe my eyes or ears crowd" ... you don't have to wait till he gets back to Rome".

That's just the point, Nariz. Rather than wait, I searched for a more credible source, and found

this:

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/post/index/600/Turkey-PM-pope-backs-our-entry-into-EU

Of course you're right that the Pope is not going to provoke the Turks when the safety of the Christian minority hangs in the balance, but that does not mean that he will resign himself to simply doing nothing, or as you put it, simply accepting dhimmitude. There's quite a great deal of ground between these two extremes.

And if intense efforts at dialogue yield no results then the time will come, if not under this Pope, then under one of his successors, that the Church will embrace the right to armed self-defence, as it did under Urban II. This will almost certainly happen if Christian faithful and property are victimized by Islamist terrorist violence in Europe. But dialogue, as per Benedict's current efforts, has to be attempted first.

No one should find this surprizing or distressing. The Pope has no control whatever over what spin the media in any country put on what is actually said, but there is absolutely no credible evidence so far that he has surrendered anything; if anything the proof from respectable official sources so far is to the contrary.

Posted by: templar at November 29, 2006 8:52 PM

templar:

People like August22, witness, Gaye, Alex, Kim Hartved et al look at this as an opportunity for Pope Bashing and Catholic Bashing. They are the Western version of Muslims who hate Catholics. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are Evangelical Christians.

freewoman posted that she saw the Pope "kiss the Koran" on Fox. Later it was discredited by other commenters here who saw that it was the Bible. Did freewoman retract her statement or even make an apology for making a false, libelous allegation? Nope. The truth doesn't matter to these people. It's just another opportunity to bash Catholics and the Pontiff.

Their rabid, irrational remarks remind me of the rabid irrational nature of Muslims.

Posted by: atheling at November 29, 2006 10:35 PM

Atheling, you have a catholic persecution complex. You went on a rant not to long ago saying that Protestants hate catholics. Get off that horse. You are very much anti-protestant, but take great offence when somebody criticizes your Pope. Like a muslim, you take personal offence. And like a muslim, respect only goes one way with you. So you are just projecting your bigotry by calling others bigots. Again, just like a muslim.

As far as the pope kissing the koran, that photo is all over the internet, just google it. It is not a myth. He did kiss it, in Iraq of all places, to his eternal shame.

Defending, or even denying, that act, or the public relations-inspired back pedaling by this new Pope after his initial anti-islam statements, is not in keeping with our JW non-tolerance policy towards dhimmitude, especially of the powerful and influential. We would not extend that to anyone else, we can not make exceptions for robed people with sceptors. The pope may get a pass from many diehard catholics for this, but do not expect others do treat such dhimmitude so leniently. As the only global Christian leader, he must take a stand against islam, clear, and unambiguous and keep it, even when the protestors chant. He did not do that. He bowed out, without actually apologizing.

Posted by: August22 at November 29, 2006 11:44 PM

August22:

IS THAT WHAT YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHEN YOU INSULT AND DEMEAN THEM AND THEY STAND UP TO YOU, YOU ARROGANT FOOLISH COWARD?

WHAT A HYPOCRITE YOU ARE TO THINK THAT CATHOLICS SHOULD JUST SHUT UP AND NOT DEFEND THEIR FAITH AND THEIR LEADER. YOU AND YOUR ILK THINK YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE ALLOWED TO SAY SNIDE AND RUDE REMARKS WHICH HURT PEOPLE? YOU AND YOUR ILK SEEM TO MAKE ALL SORTS OF HATEFUL COMMENTS AND YOU EXPECT NO ONE TO STAND UP TO YOU? IS THAT WHAT YOU EXPECT? WELL, BULLY, I WON'T.

KEEP IT UP, I WILL NOT RELENT. EVERY TIME YOU AND YOUR ILK OPEN YOUR MOUTHS AND SAY INSULTING THINGS ABOUT MY FAITH AND MY POPE, BE PREPARED TO GET SLAMMED BACK.

AFTER ALL, THAT'S WHAT YOU PREACH US TO DO TO THE MUSLIMS. THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED THE POPE TO DO TO THE MUSLIMS IN TURKEY. YOU CAN DISH IT OUT, BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE IT.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 2:40 AM

Now, where did I go on a rant here about Protestants? And can you provide the many links of the Pope kissing the Koran? Pope Benedict, that is?

I know who you are. August22, you're the guy at The Brussels Journal who likes to bash the Pope and Catholics there.

You've called the Pope the Antichrist and the Church the Whore of Babylon. And you expect to say that without someone's objecting?

So now you're here spewing your anti Catholic bigotry again. And I'm here calling you on it again.

Talk about patterns. But you're the one spewing the hatred. And you're ignorant too. We don't "worship" saints, as you allege. We "venerate" them. There's a difference. But then, you wouldn't know. That requires nuance.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 2:56 AM

BTW, I'm a member of Ratzinger's Rottweilers.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 2:57 AM

I know who you are. August22, you're the guy at The Brussels Journal who likes to bash the Pope and Catholics there.

You've called the Pope the Antichrist and the Church the Whore of Babylon. And you expect to say that without someone's objecting?

You have shown yourself to be unhinged. Not only do you type in call caps like a maniac, but now you accuse me of saying thing I didn't say by accusing me of being a journalist for a publication called the Brussels Journal. LOL!!!

I was right about you. You have a persecution complex to the point of being a paranoid schizophrenic. Just like those radical, foaming-at-the-mouth muslims.

Rather than discuss the issue at hand, you can't. Your religious affiliation causes your blood to boil and to launch into a blind defence of your holy leader, and a blind rage attack on any of his critics.

You got muslim dementia.

Posted by: August22 at November 30, 2006 8:23 AM

Atheling, August 22

I really know better than to do this, however: Matt 5:22.

Cheers,

Chatillon

Posted by: Chatillon at November 30, 2006 10:50 AM

August22:

Who said you're a journalist? You're a commenter. You sure "interpret" things incorrectly. Delusions of grandeur?

You have a pattern here at Jihad Watch. Every time a post is written about the Pope or Catholicism, you never fail to write something derogatory or insulting about it.

And if you continue doing so, expect me to get "unhinged" with you. Got that?

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 12:59 PM

Atheling:

August22 sure does have a way of twisting things, doesn't he. I think it was you who once scolded him for not reading any of the other posters and just blurting out comments in obvious ignorance of the facts. I agree with that comment. His type is indestructible. There will always be some of these Pope baiters and Catholic bashers around, who are determined not to be confused by the facts, or even know what the facts are, but just make ridiculous, indefensible statements that force reality into a framework of some pre-determined conclusions or other that suits their prejudices. It's good of you to defend the Pope, but there's no point in losing your peace of mind about his stupidity. He has a right to speak his mind, as we do, even to risk bringing down eternal misery upon himself. As praiseworthy as it is to try to stop him, we really have no way of doing it because he obviously means to deflect all attempts to get through to him. Best for all of us to think of him as a sick man who needs our prayers.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 2:01 PM

templar:

You're right. He is sick. However, he's going to take some medicine. And it won't be with a spoonful of sugar.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 3:12 PM

august22:

You're either a liar or blind. Probably both. You failed to read that ALL those words uttered by the Turkish official WAS WRONG.

I NEVER SAID you "worked" for the Brussels Journal. Re read what I wrote, for crying out loud. You don't know how to read, do you?

By the way, where are all those links to the photos of Pope Benedict kissing the Koran? You claimed that they're all over the internet. Well, where are they?

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 8:11 PM

"Atheling, I see you and templar are on pope patrol. Like good cop, bad cop ... you two are a comedy duo in your personal holy jihad against pope critics.

I gotta hand it to you, August22, that's funny! And (LOL) to think that you told me once that I take the fun out of things!

Of course I do think that Atheling is doing himself a disservice taking the matter SOOO seriously. In all DUE seriousness, though, there is at least one point about all this that I think you should take to heart, and again, I'm telling you, in all sincerity, that I would not have defended Benedict's immediate predecessor as I've defended Benedict - to the contrary I find the image of John Paul kissing the Koran shocking, deflating and worthy of withering condemnation! The point I want to make here though is this: even if you think that Benedict is acting dhimmi in some ways, his history is as ANTI-dhimmi as any current European leader gets. Now people in high office meet together regularly, rub shoulders together, at meetings, conferences, summits and the like - papal audiences, don't forget - exchange ideas, and influence one another through these contacts. With evidence in recent days that even left-of-centre governments in Europe are beginning to wake up and reconsider the damaging, pro-Islamist and PC policies that have created the current problems, don't we want to encourage the spark that may help to energize these embers, rather than squelch it?

If public opinion (and I think that this forum has some influence out there, and is probably even noticed by important people in leadering positions in society) turns against a leader like Benedict this undercuts his influence on them, and that of any other prominent persons who are basically on the right track, diminishing their ability to push their peers in the direction we would like to see them move, this should not happen for frivolous reasons, such as patently false rumours that he imitated his predecessor, John Paul, by kissing the Koran (especially when it is clear that what he would have kissed is the Gospel!), things that he clearly never said, such as the accusation that he called Islam a "religion of peace", and manipulations by the Turkish prime minister to make a diplomatic enticement sound like a full fledged endorsement of an EU membership pitch.

On the other hand, there are some very astute observations made by a commenter named "Court1" in this thread:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014248.php#comments

I find Court1's critique of Benedict's remarks quite valid, and it seems to me that this is the kind of thing that criticism of his acts during this visit should concentrate on, not spurious criticisms like the "religion of peace" calumny or the "kissing the Koran" fiction, all of which do little but indulge in sensationalism and make the Pope look ridiculous. Someone like Prince Charles deserves to look ridiculous; Benedict does not!

Hopefully, the final day of his visit will see him fill in the kind of gaps that Court1 identifies, but if not then he can be taken to task when the visit's post-mortem analysis gets underway. However, I really do not think that continuing to circulate the petty criticisms that have been circulated so far, and which trivialize the achievements of the visit, can do anything but further demoralize the West and undermine our cause.

I hope you'll try to take some of this to heart, (so that Atheling and I don't have to work so hard!).

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 11:45 PM