“In the face of this reality, we are called, together with all other Christian communities, to renew Europe's awareness of its Christian roots, traditions and values, giving them new vitality,” he said.

We could stand to do this in the US as well.

Posted by: Clive at November 30, 2006 12:35 PM

After the verbal lassing he got from the Turkish Muslim leader this week, it is no suprise that B16 is warning both Europe and the west to rediscover its Jewish/Christian heritage.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 30, 2006 12:35 PM

“In the face of this reality, we are called, together with all other Christian communities, to renew Europe's awareness of its Christian roots, traditions and values, giving them new vitality,” he said.

It's too late for that.

War is going to be the ultimate answer to all these woes. World war and only world war.

Sorry to be the messenger of such evil tidings, but hey, reality checks are never cute and cuddly.

Europe is on the edge of the crevasse and there's no bottom in sight.

Posted by: Foehammer at November 30, 2006 12:37 PM

Good for the Pope. He hasn't gone all soft after all and he's still in the belly of the beast.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 30, 2006 12:41 PM

It would be good of The New Duranty Times to retract its previous headline about the Pope endorsing Turkish entry into the E.U. They have only the report of Erdogan. They fail to put into context -- the context of decades of thought -- what the Pope, if he indeed said that he "hoped" Turkey could be "admitted" to the E.U., is no different from the rest of us "hoping" that Muslims will accept, permanently and unfeignedly, the right of individuals to choose their own belief or for that matter shed any belief whatsoever, and the right of non-Muslims to be given complete legal egality in Muslim societies, and furthermore, to admit to, and attempt to do somethning about, the no-longer-to-be-denied-or-hidden "Jihad" passages (see the Calcutta Qur'an Petition), of which there are over one hundred, in the Qur'an, and the hundreds of murderously hostile hadith in the recensions of Bukhari and Muslim.

Could The New Duranty Times conceivably do this? Could it conceivably, that is, begin to hire or train or assign reporters who have studied and begun to make sense of these matters, or will it be the mixture as before?

No, it is not conceivable.

That is why you must come here first. And in addition, to such websites as www.dhimmitude.org, www.answering-islam.org, www.faithfreedom.org, and www.newenglishreview.org. Many other websites, ostensibly alert to the menace of Jihad, offer deceptively hopeful ways out of the permanent problem of Islam (putting emphasis on "moderate" Muslims as the solution, or on a "reformation" within Islam that may or may not come in a hundred years, and in a hundred years, in half a hundred years, or less, it may all be over, with Muslims apparently free to make of Islam whatever is they wish, suddenly liberated from those silly old texts including the uncreated and immutable Word of God that is the Qur'an. But the websites listed in this psoting do not, for such "ways out of the morass" upon inspection prove to be hollow, and prolong the wilful unwariness of some - but not all -- Infidels.

Accept no substitutes.

Posted by: Hugh at November 30, 2006 12:46 PM

God Bless B16 and his missionary effort.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 30, 2006 12:46 PM

"Pope hardens tone"

How is what he said a hardening of tone? Seems to be simply more of the same "sensitive" language with which we must continue to "dialogue" . . .

Is anyone else tired of talk and dialogue? I am.

Posted by: Matt at November 30, 2006 12:52 PM

POPE Benedict XVI put the brakes on his charm offensive in EU-hopeful, Muslim majority Turkey, stressing Europe's "Christian roots" and taking a strong stand on religious freedoms and minority rights...

He did??

You know, I think like Benedict.

But if I see more of this sort of thing -- I will not only begin to like him; I will begin to have renewed respect for his courage to actually stand against islam.

You don't handle the immams with charm; you handle them with an iron fist to the face with a whip and a chair.

This, is what they understand.

Posted by: witness at November 30, 2006 12:54 PM

War is going to be the ultimate answer to all these woes. World war and only world war.

Sorry to be the messenger of such evil tidings, but hey, reality checks are never cute and cuddly.

Europe is on the edge of the crevasse and there's no bottom in sight.
Posted by: Foehammer

I agree.....let's get this battle over with. No point in delaying the inevitable, and then they will see who really is the victorious and protected by God. Hint....it isn't them! We need to get back to our Christian roots here in the US.

Posted by: Bonniea at November 30, 2006 12:58 PM

I desperately want to believe in the ‘new vitality’ of which Pope Benedict speaks but I wonder, along with Foehammer, if it is indeed ‘too late for that’. As former student of Western Art and Civilization, it is difficult to see this great culture of ours, after having reached an undeniable zenith in world history, seemingly teetering over the abyss and the reversion to another dark age as the beast of Islam beckons the ignorant forward. It reminds me of the demons eagerly pulling the damned toward Hell in Hieronymus Bosch’s apocalyptic triptych ‘The Garden of Earthly Delight’!!

Posted by: descendantofacrusader at November 30, 2006 1:03 PM

He's a good man, and it's good to see him standing up to these bullies.

Posted by: champ at November 30, 2006 1:05 PM

"Is anyone else tired of talk and dialogue? I am".

Posted by: Matt at November 30, 2006 12:52 PM

For Islam, a dialogue means it dictates its demands and complaints while its partner meekly complies.

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 30, 2006 1:06 PM

"War is going to be the ultimate answer to all these woes. World war and only world war."
-- from a posting above

It needn't be at all. It is entirely possible to avoid such an outcome. It only requires sober study, such that what is studied is thoroughly assimilated, and then a little imaginative sympathy, both for what goes on in the heads of varied versions of Infidels (the devout, the undevout, the right, the left) and of Muslims (the devout, the less devout, the westernized and the primitive, the Arab and the non-Arab) and figuring out ways to tutor and bring together the former, and to divide and demoralize the latter, and also to force many of the latter to begin to comprehend that the failures of their societies and states -- political, economic, social, moral, and intellectual-- are a result of the tenets, attitudes and atmospherics of Islam, and of nothing else.

Posted by: Hugh at November 30, 2006 1:08 PM

War is going to be the ultimate answer to all these woes. World war and only world war.

Soon as it gets declared, I'm off for the front!

Lot's of battle field experience just going to waste -- but THIS time let's:

Have a formal declaration of war;

Have a serious goal of WINNING the damned war;

Forget the stupid ideas of NATION BUILDING;

Forget the UN resolutions;

You may think its cool to have your grand kids mess around with these vermin in another generation; I would rather your grand kids never even heard of these vermin -- let alone, have to deal with them!

Posted by: witness at November 30, 2006 1:10 PM

I suspect and hope that when the tea leaves from the Holy Father's pilgrimage to Turkey have settled in the bottom of the teacup, he will have made explicitly clear that any Papal endorsement of Turkey's admittance to the EU would have been contingent on the following:

1. Turkey's guarantee to Christians and other non-Muslims the same freedom of (or from) religion that the EU countries currently offer to Muslims, members of other faiths, and those who chose not to worship in any religion; i.e., full reciprocity in religious freedom;

2. Return of the Hagia Sophia and other formerly Christian or other non-Muslim places of worship to their original ownership and usage;

3. And even, (far less likely, unfortunately) Turkish government acknowledgement of and reparations for genocide against the Armenians and other ethnic/religions minorities during the modern era, equivalent to what Germany did following World War II.

It appears that even the secular governments of the EU were appalled at the crudeness and arrogance of the Turkish civil and religious leadership in trying to railroad the Holy Father and put words in his mouth, and that this may have strengthened Benedict XVI's influence with those nations who will eventually vote for or against Turkish admittance to the EU.

Posted by: urbanIIredux at November 30, 2006 1:18 PM

Wow, and just yesterday some folks on this site, were calling the Pope all sorts of names. Dhimmi-Pope, Anti-Christ, the normal crap I've heard for all of my 30 years on this beautiful earth. And yes, I will always defend the Pope anytime, anywhere.

Make no mistake about it, the Holy Father knows what he's doing. And like the artical says, He is Very Worried about the state of Christianity in Europe. For that matter around the world.

Robert, thank you for posting this artical.

Posted by: RegularRon at November 30, 2006 1:29 PM

"...taking a strong stand on religious freedoms and minority rights."

Oh, yes, how utterly charmless and crass it was for the pontiff to take stands on such things. Why, these issues are NEVER discussed among the genteel classes in Eurabia. Religious freedom and minority rights? How terribly gauche. Thank goodness he didn't say that Judaism is a religion of peace. AFP would have had a fit.

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 30, 2006 1:31 PM

It is refreshing to see SOMEONE standing up for Christianity these days. The leftists and their political shenanigans have been worrying me almost as much as Islam has been lately.

It is just possible that human life will continue to have a chance on earth while there are influential people around like our current pope.

Deliver us all from Islam! Amen.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 30, 2006 1:38 PM

Great site. I am a new member. Keep up the good work Robert and Hugh.

The West is waking, albeit slowly. Hopefully this site and others will expedite the process.

Posted by: awake at November 30, 2006 1:40 PM

"1. Turkey's guarantee to Christians and other non-Muslims the same freedom of (or from) religion that the EU countries currently offer to Muslims, members of other faiths, and those who chose not to worship in any religion; i.e., full reciprocity in religious freedom;

2. Return of the Hagia Sophia and other formerly Christian or other non-Muslim places of worship to their original ownership and usage;

3. And even, (far less likely, unfortunately) Turkish government acknowledgement of and reparations for genocide against the Armenians and other ethnic/religions minorities during the modern era, equivalent to what Germany did following World War II.".

I second all these. However, I would add the following to the first item above:

1)...other non-Muslims AS WELL AS SECULAR TURKS WHO ARE FED UP WİTH THE BULLYİNG OF ISLAMOFASCISTS...

and to the second item:

2)Return of the Hagia Sophia ... as well as the reopening of the theological school at Halkilikia (known today as Heybeliada)in Prince islands off Istanbul coast..

3) This item is-under the present conditions- impossible to fulfill. On that account even the Turkish Nobel Prize winner Orhan Pamuk faces death threats both from the islamists and the neo-fascist Grey Wolves. Forcing this into the agenda- I am afraid- may only help to strengthen them..

I would add a 4'th item: Complete freedom of expression for the alaouites, atheists and agnostics and Permission for the Churches to serve with no restriction whatsoever. Freedom for the Greek and Armenian schools to adopt their own curriculum.

I would seriously consider: Recognition of ecumenical authority of BARTHELEOMOS in conjunction with his contribution in settling the Cyprus problem to the mutual benefit of greek and turkish cypriot communities.

Posted by: Icarus_Project at November 30, 2006 1:44 PM

Hugh wrote:

"It needn't be [world war] at all. It is entirely possible to avoid such an outcome. It only requires sober study, such that what is studied is thoroughly assimilated..."

I'm convinced that if we follow the path we are on now, that of coddling, appeasing, educating, hoping, vainly hoping -- we are going to play into the plans of the Islamists. The longer that Islam moves forward on the shores of Western nations, especially the United States, and has a continued dialogue wiht our people, the more likely it is that "reversion" will be the long-term strategy that wins out. I can not abide that. Islam is an absolute lie, a cult, a dogma created by a man and only a man. I can not in good conscience acquiesce to reformer mentality again. I see it as fruitless.

It is not only by force alone that Islam wins victories -- the use of propaganda and lies and lobbyists is just as alarming. Like a glacier it creeps up and swallows our cultures and our nations and stamps out the life of religions outside the boundaries of Islam.

I am tired of trying to wrestle the tiger. I'd rather shoot it.

Posted by: Foehammer at November 30, 2006 1:51 PM

One of the reasons I was so shocked to hear about Pope Benedict doing a flip-flop is that it was as foreign a concept as. . . bin Laden enjoying a bacon sandwich.

Never, ever, ever underestimate B16. He knows the score.

Posted by: RerumNovarum at November 30, 2006 1:52 PM

Armed conflict will continue, in some form or another, for a long time. The only question is whether the combatants on the side of western civilization will continue to dodge the central issue, which is that this is a battle of worldviews.

If we continue this "tiny minority of extremists" claptrap, we can expect continued proxy wars with terror organizations funded by Iran, Syria and other oil-financed Islamic states. How long this can be sustained in the face of ever-increasing political cannibalism from within is anyone's guess.

The alternative is jettisoning the politics of multiculturalism and clearly addressing the sources of the Islamist worldview. This is proving seemingly unattainable, I believe, for the following reason:

There has been a process of secularization, and a domination of postmodern relativistic thinking, which has relegated all Christian thought or references to the Judeo-Christian worldview to the public scrap heap in the west. This has resulted in a culture with no shared values other than a sort of materialistic reductionism. While most posters on this site immediately recognize the tyranny and despotism of Islam, legions of basically well-intentioned people are genuinely confused. Without recognizing it, they've been robbed of the epistemological basis to define any behaviour as evil, including Islam.

While it is not reasonable to expect all members of western civilization to become Christians, we're going to have to deal with the stilted political and academic brainwashing that got us here. An open-minded revisiting of historical Christian thought and scholarship would be a good start.

Posted by: Clive at November 30, 2006 2:02 PM

"War is going to be the ultimate answer to all these woes. World war and only world war."
-- l would hope this could be avoided as Hugh logically put out all his points, but looking into reality at human history, we are a sorry lot on logic. people like water take the easiest path, and do not see the whole picture of islam. in the West many blame Israel. what they do not realize is that like the canary in the mine, Israel as been that canary, and what they have been facing and struggling we are going through those early stages.
Unfortunately when our backs are up against the wall, will there be a united front against the cult of islam.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 30, 2006 2:03 PM

Well it's great to hear Pope B16 stand up for Christianity and remind us of Europe's Christian roots (although, I don't think any atheist is listening).

However, I'd like to hear him say it and mean it: islam is not a religion of peace.

Posted by: EliasAlucard at November 30, 2006 2:09 PM

Testify brother!

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 30, 2006 2:12 PM

This site and CatholicReport.org are one of the few sites where you can find news about the plight of Christians in the Middle East. In December my book, "The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism," will be released. I have a chapter on the Crusades & dhimmitude. There is certainly a great deal of interest in what is real history and the history we are told to believe.

Posted by: Dave at November 30, 2006 2:19 PM

War is going to be the ultimate answer to all these woes. World war and only world war… Sorry to be the messenger of such evil tidings…

Please don’t apologizing for speaking truthfully on a terrible subjectg, Hammer. That’s how we got into this mess in the first place.

Historiographically, I’d place the confidence interval on your dire prediction coming to pass somewhere north of 80%.

Accept no substitutes (for the real picture of Islam).

Sound and important advice. This helps explain why Pope B16 praised Islam and kissed the Koran. The leader of the Dhimmi World is accepting substitutes, trying to have it both ways when in reality it’s strictly an either/or proposition confronting him.

He should start hitting JihadWatch.org, and maybe even donate some of the Roman Catholic Church’s vast cash reserves into this website’s meager budget. The research being delivered here by a few men is vastly superior to that of the hundreds of researchers working for the Papacy.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 30, 2006 2:24 PM

Hugh,

Your optimism is commendable. The war, however, is already upon us. It is not the war of massed armies of yore that is our definition of it. Your solution ". . . bring together the former, and to divide and demoralize the latter . . ." plus educating these latter in why their societies are a failure, etc. is a Herculean task. There is no Hercules amongst our leaders.

Bringing all infidels together appears impossible. Even in India, which has been ravaged by the Moslem longer and more savagely than the West, the government stands between the Hindu and Sikh population and the Moslems.

Even when divided and fighting each other, Moslems will not give up the jihad against all unbelievers in their horse manure.

The war is here, it has been since we (the West)foolishly withdrew from Moslem lands and gave them autonomy and oil. The war was openly declared when the US embassy in Teheran was invaded and held without consequences for the Moslems that committed this act of war.

Your method is that of an academic, with persuasive dialogue with those supposedly on our side (think of Michael Moore, the leftists professors, etc. and all those that follow them) and with the miniscule number of Moslems wavering in their belief in the simplistic ideology of allah and his "prophet."

A few Moslem intellectuals can be persuaded that their societies have failed and the fault lies with the iron ideology of allah and his "prophet." the Moslem masses, however, prefer to blame us for their ills. Besides being on the dole, not having to work to stay alive as is the case with the "Palestinian" Arabs who can devote themselves full-time to hating Israel and Jews and contriving many ways to kill Jews, is easier than having to go to a job every day. Hanging around the streets as men do in Islamic countries, seething with resentment, is preferred by Moslem "youths."

We few, who realize that Islam is upon us, are scattered voices raising the alarum. Fewer still listen to us. We are pooh-poohed as crackpots, bigots, racists, etc. by our fellows. Our leaders are simpletons, self-serving, or bleeding for all mankind--especially the "downtrodden," be it "Palestians" or any other raggedy Moslems whose pain they feel.

We are not winning the war. We are not winning the battles. We can conquer with superior technology and force but not win. We are going after heart and minds--and we do not have a firm grip on the enemy's cojones. And that is what one needs to win hearts and minds.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at November 30, 2006 2:38 PM

alarmed pig farmer:

Pope Benedict XVI did NOT kiss the Koran. Will you and your ilk cease persisting in malicious rumormongering?

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 2:44 PM

This is a bit OT, but while AFP is worried about the Pope's charm, the French airforce is bombing villages in Africa. I just saw the following AP story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061130/ap_on_re_af/central_african_republic_rebels

I wonder what the world's reaction would be if it involved the Israeli airforce trying to stop terrorist attacks on Jews.

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 30, 2006 2:54 PM

This has been making the rounds in email - I don't know who the author is.

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity, we should remember England's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America, He said:

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Posted by: CGW at November 30, 2006 2:58 PM

alarmed pig farmer:

Pope Benedict XVI did NOT kiss the Koran. Will you and your ilk cease persisting in malicious rumormongering?

Correct. It was pope John Paul; not a rumor -- established, verifiable, fact.

Posted by: witness at November 30, 2006 3:13 PM

Alarmed Pig Farmer:

Ditto the comment of Atheling. This ridiculous libel has been spreading since yesterday (local time where I am) but I have found NO EVIDENCE OF IT WHATEVER in any newstory or visual.

What most likely has caused this confusion (which I hope and pray for the sakes of all of you passing it around is all this absurd rumour is) is the dress of Orthodox (Christian) clergy who often wear a cylindrical black hat inspired by the fez which is called a "kamelavka", in some cases covered by a long veil ("Klobook") as well as full length robes variously called riasa, pid-riasa as well as exo-riasa (there are two of them, the one with the broad sleeves being worn over the other to provide extra warmth) and this may give the appearance of dress similar to some types of Islamic dress, but these are Christian clerics, bishops, priests, and deacons, and maybe others in various minor orders.

The book that Benedict kissed, if this actually happened, would have been the Gospel book at one of the Christian services (either Catholic or Orthodox), which is brought out and venerated in various Orthodox liturgical rites, predominantly during the Divine Liturgy ("Mass") at the "Little Entrance" (a procession from the sanctuary around the nave of the Church and back again) and after the reading of the Gospel for the celebration (when the faithful are often invited to kiss it).

Moreover, some of the features of the Catholic liturgical services at which the Pope has presided or is scheduled to preside, including some of the gospel readings, have been done or will be done, according to these Eastern customs. You can find reference to this at the Holy See's website (www.vatican.va) where you'll find the official Missal published for the Pope's Turkish vist. This is because a number of the Catholic communities in Turkey follow the same liturgical traditions as the Orthodox and other Eastern Christian Churches, including the Byzantine rite used by the Patriarchate of Constantinople. As such, many of the Catholic clergy around the Pope at these celebrations would be dressed in the same manner as the Orthodox as I've described it above, not to mention any Orthodox visitors present.

Get it people? THE BOOK BENEDICT KISSED WAS THE HOLY GOSPELS, and the beared, exotically robed men around him were Catholic and/or Orthodox Christian clergy!

Would everyone either please get this sorted out in your minds already or if you're still really convinced that he really did kiss the Koran KINDLY SUBMIT VIDEO PROOF VIA A LINK TO PROVE THE ACCUSATION.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 3:17 PM

As a matter of fact here's the link to the site where wanting to know the truth of the matter can check this out for themselves.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/2006/documents/ns_lit_doc_20061128_present-turchia_en.html

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 3:21 PM

Witness:

John Paul II was another person. Benedict XVI is not John Paul II. What John Paul did, even though it had a context which is not always understood or appreciated, was a very unfortunate event. In fact I would describe it as a scandal.

But Benedict has not repeated this, and will not be manipulated the way John Paul allowed himself to be.

IF YOU HAVE PROOF THAT BENEDICT DID THIS, POST IT ALREADY so that I, Atheling and other defenders of the Pope can see it and be silenced already.

Put up or shut up. And get your facts, current and historical, straight. What John Paul did is irrelevant. Different Pope, different time.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 3:28 PM

americaningermany:

"Ha! Erdogan wanted to use the Pope as his little propaganda puppet to support their EU membership.

How stupid does he think Christians are?"

Pretty stupid. If you read the comments after that previous post which quoted Erdogan, some of the commenters went ballistic attacking the Pope, calling him a "jackass", a "Dhimmi", and all sorts of names. They all fell for it. They all came out of the woodwork. They wanted to believe it too, because most of them are anti Catholic bigots who use any means they can to spew their hatred.

freewoman started a rumor about Pope Benedict XVI kissing the Koran and people like August22 and alarmed pig farmer persist in spreading it. When I asked her for a retraction she made a sarcastic post pretending to abase herself at my feet.

People like her, and the abovementioned commenters have absolutely no credibility. They persist in a pattern of opportunism to spread their hatred and scorn for Catholics and the Pope.

With enemies like, that, who needs Muslims?

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 3:33 PM

I just happened to find this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Iq4rA4RZ8

At You Tube. It is not really on topic, but the comments after are just atrocious.
Someone above suggested that our country should return to our Christian roots, read the comments to this video....I can't see it happening.
I know Jesus said things would get bad, but it breaks my heart that my country-men are so blind.

I wanted to comment that someone should give her a cigarette and a bottle of Jack Daniels ans she would really be kewel
/blech

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 30, 2006 3:35 PM

"Pope hardens tone"

I'm reminded of a witticism answering the question, "Why are there only 'fallen women' and no 'fallen men'?" by saying, "Because there are so many fallen men that the adjective isn't worth using anymore". Non-Muslims can be described as "hardening their tone". The Muslims' tone is hard by nature, so there's no point in speaking of any hardening of it.

Posted by: ZionistYoungster at November 30, 2006 3:38 PM

Well, the comments have been deleted since last night - just 14 now- there were well over 300 last night and the majority were in favor of an 8 year old talking like that. And most spouted their anti-Christian bile.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 30, 2006 3:44 PM

Here is the link with comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8x14cLGh5o

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 30, 2006 3:47 PM

I just hope he can hold the line, but I doubt it.

Islam is what it is.

As people like Mr. Spencer and others have continued to point out, if you want the truth go to the source - the Koran and the Surras justify, explicitly, behvaiour that is incompatible with Western Civilisation as it is currently constructed. The behvaiour that can be reconciled with Islam, but not Western Civilisation, includes values that are antithetical to the West - the subjugation of women, murder, intimidation, pedophilia, dictatorship and so on.

The leader of the Anglican church, Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has caved in the face of this challenge and becomes more dhimmi-like each day. Amusingly, his black and African-born deputy in the Anglican Church, the Archbishop of York, has no problems highlighting the incompatibility between Western values and Islamic values. Perhaps he is not overly concerned that he might be labelled a racist?

Posted by: Alex at November 30, 2006 3:48 PM

Clive said:
“There has been a process of secularization, and a domination of postmodern relativistic thinking, which has relegated all Christian thought or references to the Judeo-Christian worldview to the public scrap heap in the west. This has resulted in a culture with no shared values other than a sort of materialistic reductionism.”

You definitely ‘get it’ as so few often do these days. That is: because of an unconscious, relativist view point, many people simply are too eager to ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater’ in denouncing all belief systems to be archaic and oppressive in nature - never seeming to notice that it was ‘Judeo/Christian culture’ that put us where we seemingly were not so long ago. And, before I continue, I don’t buy that crap about islam being included as one of the ‘Abrahamic Religions’ as it was from it’s violent beginnings just an ‘ugly ducking’ that never really was part of this beautiful swan’s nestlings - just an evil imposter nestled amongst it's two legitimate nestlings. One can never hope to defeat a skillful and persistent foe such as Islam unless one has a firm and unchanging moral perspective from which to judge and assess it by. This crucial ‘perspective’ of course is Christianity or, at the very least allowing for other ‘belief systems’, ‘Judeo/Christian Culture’.

If we, in our once great Western society, persist in this gray fog of relativism, we will, as suicidal lemmings, rush headlong over the cliff alongside our evil children, ‘multiculturalism’ and ‘blind tolerance’ along side. In this flailing condition: Islam, like a cancer, will feed and nurture upon our ‘inclusiveness’ and stubborn inability to know right from wrong – God from demon.

I for one am not ashamed of either Christianity or its undeniable contribution to the greatness of Western Civilization. Let the pious, unassimilating, Muslim hordes go back the ecstatic simplicity of 7th C life under the date palms of some obscure Arabian oasis from whence they came. In the mean time: I will revel in likes of: Jesus Christ, Dante, Michelangelo’s ‘David’, Charlemagne, Chartres Cathedral, Charles Martel, and the Declaration of Independence!

Posted by: descendantofacrusader at November 30, 2006 4:01 PM

aig, yeah some thought she was speaking her own words, right.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 30, 2006 4:04 PM

I found that puppet-child in You Tube quite repulsive, but I bookmarked it anyway. I think it's just as important to remind myself what the crazies are thinking as it is to find my allies and hear their side of things.

The real crime is how the anti-Christian, anti-Religion crowd that's growing in the United States is so quick to forget that the only reason they have the right to spew such venom is because of the efforts of the "Christian soldiers" they are so ready to demonize. Absolutely pathetic.

Those who forget history....

Posted by: Foehammer at November 30, 2006 4:08 PM

Court1:

If a new Crusade is needed you can bet the Catholic world will respond! Why wouldn't it? It did before! Urban II proclaimed the 1st Crusade within less than a generation after St. Gregory VII had optimistically called for solid inter-faith relations in precisely the manner we've seen from Benedict. You arrogantly ascribe far too much importance to secularist ideology and the science and technology that it claims to have uniquely generated, while ignoring the role that the Church has had throughout history of patronage of the Sciences and the Arts, and worse, ignoring the strength and vigour of the virtues of faith, hope and love, and the powerful appeal to conscience that the word of God clearly proclaimed by Pope Benedict, excites. If militant Islam resists this power, it will still strengthen the Christian world in its resistance against Islamic aggression, and build the morale of the Christians who will be sustained knowing they fight the good fight.

On the other hand, while I value scientific and technical advancement as well, I would say that much of the effect of this applied science as we experience it today has only been to produce societies and persons that are soft, lazy, childish, decadent and incapable of rising to any challenge or exherting any effort over anything. It is the absolutes that people like Atheling and I believe in that Muslims respect, not the pampered pussy folk that modern secularist thought produces who believe in nothing and value nothing.

Benedict's actions are a strong and clear affirmation of truth, not a "sickening olive branch". The difference between militant Islam and Christianity is that Christians value life, and resist war and bloodshed. This is not weakness, it is strength, in the manner of God's wisdom which is "foolishness in the eyes of the world". And to clearly offer an enemy the way of peace as an alternative to war is only proper in the Christian tradition proper to the West, and which alone made the West great. It must be followed, until it is exhausted and proven to have found an enemy that will not be defeated by peaceful means. If Benedict doesn't go through the current measures, your technological war will have no legitimacy. If he does, and succeeds, war will not be necesary and it will be a great victory. The outcome will likely be a bit of both. But in the struggle ahead, it is the people of Christian and other strong faiths who will win, not bored, dissipated secularits absorbed in their toys.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 4:11 PM

Can't believe your all calling for war! This makes me think of Boy George's deep and moving lyrics from the "War Song"

"war war is stupid and people are stupid and love means nothing in some strange quarters! La la le la la, de da da de da da, dum dum de dum dum, de dum dum de dum dum (all together now!)

Hmmm makes you think doesn't it!?

But seriously the link below is to a speach made by Cardinal Pell an Australian cleric with some back bone who also "gets it"

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002085.html

Posted by: hierophant at November 30, 2006 4:14 PM

i agree with urbanIIredux, in view of what is being demanded of us, these would all be entirely fair and reasonable requests.
i also agree that it is unlikely that any of them would be granted.
the turks clearly want to portray the pope as saying only what they want to hear, and will be unable to contain their displeasure if it gets into the MSM that he is not doing so..
regarding the 'war is inevitable' thread, i tend to agree that it is, and i think the quickest way to bring it on is simply to resist, on all channels and in every possible way. (acting dhimmi may sometimes be a useful strategy, so long as we remember that we are only pretending, and dont actually give anything up - come on, we are kuffir, we are deceitful). it won't take long for them to get frustrated and resort to violence.
however, we should never wish for war, and an interesting article on the same lines as Hugh above is at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=1CVAXR4CS51MZQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/opinion/2006/11/30/do3002.xml
some interesting comments there too.

Posted by: M Al-Content at November 30, 2006 4:18 PM

Assalamau Laikum all,

"Pope hardens tone!"....so did he speak louder?...quicker, eyes open wider ...say what?

C'mon peoples ...don't tell me this was unexpected? The pope is off tomorrow...he offered the slighest hope, he couldn't go home to safety leaving his flock thirsty...but really is that it? You tell me, just what concrete measures did he announce? What did he agree with the Turkish Premier? Anything? Are the christians safer now? Are they going to have more childrens?....don't be swayed so easily!!

Believe me I WOULD like to see christain artifects handed back...but you know it won't happen. 98% of Turkey...the womens in particular wouldn't have it...."our ancestors fought for them, we gave them birth through pain...they are our prizes", booty if you will...they will see them destroyed before handed back.

Unfortunately I too agree with Foehammer. War between Allah against the combined forces of Yahwea & Jesus PBUH will decide the ultimate answer to all these woes.

It will ultimately decide who Jesus belongs to..muslims or christians?..for he is a prophet of both religions ...if the christians lose..they are finished ...whatever little faith and pride you have will be squeezed out like so much lemon juice....global Islam will be the result. Those pictures that you saw the other day in Turkey....they will be your grandaughters' attire...they will be proud muslimas.

Ofcourse the battles will be hard ...no one can afford to lose...do not think you can win simply if you have more bombs...you will be fighting muslims and your own PC peoples...however IF the christians do win....Allah SWT will be no more...Islam will not be allowed to be practised...the question is will almighty Allah SWT ALLOW such a thing?

Alhumdulilla....NEVER!

Posted by: Naseem at November 30, 2006 4:29 PM

Muslims think they can pillage Jesus like some booty and add to their pile of plunder. They will find out otherwise.

Posted by: Abby at November 30, 2006 4:51 PM

Abby,

The Muslims will find out the hard way at the end of the age that they do not own Jesus.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 30, 2006 5:05 PM

watching the Pope in st. sophia cathedral I noticed many 30 foot ceiling to floor opaque
plastic sheets covering various things...would those things perhaps have been Chistian paintings. murals or statuary which the mooslim
hosts did not want the Pope pausing in front of
before the cameras?..to be witnessed by the world?

Posted by: Madduck at November 30, 2006 5:08 PM

Well, Hermit, the Pope, unlike Chamberlin, doesn't have any armies of his own to throw into combat, but he does have a moral authority that is necesary to legitimize the use of them, or not, and convince people of the worthiness of a cause to be defended with blood and sacrifice. Tough talk by guys who rely on using words like "blowjob" can never accomplish this, in fact, it makes thinking people turn away. Be that as it may, you are speaking of a person of gigantic stature who deserves better respect than you've shown him with such filthy talk, and make no mistake about it, the moral character that allows such vulgarity is a big part of the problem that the West is in right now.

The truth is that the Pope has done his part by making this trip and putting Turkey and its Christians in the spotlight of the world. He has certainly dangled a carrot in front of them that might be a powerful motivator - the possibility of movement toward a closer relationship with Europe, and possible EU membership someday, if they get their act together on human rights and religious freedom. But whether it accomplishes anything in the long run, will depend as much on how this subsequently influences the actions of other players, such as religious communities and their activists, governments, the Turkish people and their authorities, and yes, individual citizens of the West letting the Turkish authorities know in various ways that they have not forgotten Turkey's minorities and demanding that Turkey act like a legitimate, law-abiding state. What will your contribution be? Bad-mouthing the Pope with locker room talk?

With knowledge of Turkey's non-Muslim minorities awakened around the world, world opinion ought to focus on making the Turks uncomfortable about the conditions they have placed on these believers. This takes effort on the part of all of us, not just the Pope.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 5:12 PM

All of us (including Naseem) should remember that when Christianity -- and in particular the Catholic Church -- is suppressed or driven underground, it becomes stronger and more vibrant. It happened in the Roman Empire, and it happened under Communism and Nazism.

When the Israelites went astray, God chastised them with the Babylonians and the Assyrians. Much of what used to be Christendom has gone off the deep end today, and it is very conceivable that God will chastise us using the Muslims. But although we may decrease in numbers, we will increase in faith, evangelism, sacrifice and, if need be, martyrdom -- and the gates of hell shall not prevail! I am sure that Satan's greatest frustration is to see what seem to be the triumphs of evil turned to God's purposes in unanticipated ways. (Remember the final scene in The Passion of the Christ when Satan is gloating over the death and apparent failure of Jesus Christ, and then realizes that he has been "sucker punched" by the resulting redemption.)

When Islam first conquered the southern and eastern Mediterranean rim, the area was rife with heresy which questioned the divinity of Jesus Christ (Arianism, Nestorianism, etc.) Where the doctrines set forth in the Nicene Creed held firm, so did the resistance to Islam.

(Speaking of chastisement, possibly the very best thing that could happen to the Catholic Church in the United States would be to lose our tax-exempt status.)

Posted by: urbanIIredux at November 30, 2006 5:14 PM

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Posted by: CGW at November 30, 2006 02:58 PM

Wow, that is lovely. Thank you for sharing that with us! I need to share that with some of my soldier friends.

Posted by: Bonniea at November 30, 2006 5:22 PM

Naseem which one are you? you said "Ofcourse the battles will be hard ...no one can afford to lose...do not think you can win simply if you have more bombs...you will be fighting muslims and your own PC peoples...however IF the christians do win....

Naseem speaking from her/his cessspoolstan, it is not up to you or your child molester mohammud to decide, islam will never take over. the human spirit cannot submit to a false god such as yours.
Naseem when and if ever you decide to join the Human Race, you will be standing by the sidelines in some corrupt dank cesspoolstan. wake up Naseem even your Hindu relatives in India are getting out of poverty by becoming Westernized. muslims will be left out like bad food. you got to laugh at muslims, hunched over on their kness, bending asses up in the air fives times a day, no wonder you wallow in misery.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 30, 2006 5:40 PM

We see more Pope bashing with Hermit. Let's see we have so far:

"The Pope is exercising political correctness, he isn't telling the Truth. I'm THIS close to calling the Pope a liar."

Posted by: champ at November 28, 2006 04:37 PM

Well, champ, the Vatican made a liar out of you. The Pope did not say those words.

"What a revolting development this is!"
What do you expect from a cleric who wants to go on living "The Life of Reilly".

Posted by: USBeast at November 28, 2006 05:25 PM

USBeast thinks the Pope lives in luxury. He obviously has never seen the Spartan quarters of the Papal Apartments.

"The pope has forgotten his own flock. He has forgotten the millions of christians that have been murdered and enslaved by Turkey. He is a sad dhimini. Whoever called this pope the bulldog of the vatican is full of s..."

Posted by: callmeinfidel at November 28, 2006 05:35 PM

callmeinfidel thinks the Pope is a sad "Dhimini", whatever that is.

"What the Pope said was a terrible mistake. Muslims see this type of apologetic speech as weakness, not diplomacy. When muslims sense weakness, it enboldens them. It's a cultural trait that the last 30 years has been testimony to. That smelling of blood, in turn, spurs them to more demands, which ultimately, will be met by the politicians. This is how islam spreads in influence.

The Pope has an obligation to be the bearer of the Christian church and to assume all the pros and cons of the job description. The pros are perks and privilege. The cons are that some people are going to hate you. This Pope enjoys the perks of the job, but is not willing to swallow the bad with the good. He must be willing to be hated for speaking as the Pope. He can not shy away from that. Especially at such an important point in Church history.
He went to Turkey and contributed to the problem, rather than face it down."

Posted by: August22 at November 28, 2006 09:02 PM

August22, of course also accuses the Pope of not being harsh enough in his visit. I'd like to see August22 go to Turkey and put his money where his mouth is. I'll buy you a roundtrip ticket, how about that?

"Pope Benedict XVI today proved himself to be yet another useless jackass taking up space and time in the Holy See.
He's a priest, he should know that if you can't tell the truth about something, then at least keep your mouth shut and let us regular folk down here on the ground fend for ourselves.
What a disgusting exhibition."

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at November 28, 2006 11:29 PM

Now that one is real nice, isn't it? Calling him a "jackass." Coming from a pig farmer, it's not altogether surprising.

"Pope Benedict told Turkey on Tuesday he backed its bid to join the European Union and believed Islam was a religion of peace,.."
This makes me sick--and then he honors the grave of Ataturk. I used to give more respect to this man than was warranted. Would he do the same for Stalin or Hitler, they killed more than Ataturk--not sure if they were getting rid of Christians too?
It is said, "If you don't STAND for something (in your a__-kissing to make "peace") you will fall for anything." That is what is happening here---unless (so many of you thread "spinning" Catholics on this one), you wise guys are correct--that Benedict Arnold is just doing this to throw us all off. One poster wrote:
"Take some time to hear out what he said so far. Through his speeches he is making muslims acknowledge Christian values and thus pointing out the hypocrisy. He has already spoken up for the Christian community in Turkey and this is only day 1."
I guess I am just too stupid to have seen all that--how dumb I am! Hmmm..."Make the muslims acknowledge Christian values" .....as he kissed ataturk's the barbarian's rear end? So profound.
and another "wiser" poster wrote:
"Who says the pope doesn't have a sense of humour?"
I guess I don't see the humor. It makes me sick. Catholic church, you've got a problem. Pope Benedict Arnold."

Posted by: BB at November 28, 2006 11:34 PM

Benedict Arnold, eh, BB? You're not even Catholic yet you know better, right? Why is it that the Patriarch doesn't see it that way? And he's in harm's way.

"This Pope is a disgrace."

Posted by: US_infidel at November 29, 2006 05:35 PM

At least that one has brevity. No substantiation, but there's merit in brevity.

"His Holiness Pope Dhimmius II."

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at November 29, 2006 10:14 AM

Another brief one, but I imagine it's not brief because it's the soul of wit.

Now this one is a whopper:

"This pope is prophecied to die in a very short time in the prophecies of some catholic bishop
this pope of catholicism is gutless and embaressing
what shared principles????
islam shares nothing!!!!
no christian virtues whatsoever- they dont even share the same God!!!!
the pope is NOT infallible, the Bibel states clearly NO man is infallible and so if anyone teaches other opposite to the bible it is not from God!!!
Thsi Pope is a poor excuse for a dhmmi
he hasnt the same inner spirituality or sense pope john paul 2 had
no chance at all- he will not last long thats for sure
he is way past his use by date and so is most of the cardinals in catholic church- majority are over 70
thats time for the nursing home and retirement home thanks!!!!
the catholic church are a bunch of pathetic anti women misogynistic morons who are so interested in their new cars and palaces they live in to worry about mere women or christians in middle east
they are more interested in their museums de art and treasures they keep instead of selling them off to raise money to feed the poor and fund their churche sin poor countries thats for sure
How can a Pope who has never married, never have had kids dare tella woman not to practise contraception
how pathetic
remember this is the man who as his previous posts showed was responsible for preventing many child abuse victims of catholic church is usa receiving any compensation....
This Pope hasnt inner strength or any courage
if it had been me, i would have stood up for the truth and said islam is how it is and dared them to take me on, furthermore I would have exposed the surahs and chapters of the nonsensical koran and shown how it is extreme opposite to what christianity teaches and be damned for it
I would command my followerrs if I had been pope to refuse to deal with islamics, and not
to do business with islamics, I would order them to de invest in anything islamic business etc and boycott any islamic lands tourism, trade and exports..and refuse to import their goods also.
I would be refusing to back down and call it how islam has been for 1400 yrs- the anti christ
But then again....am awoman and I actually know more about islam that the ponce-oops pontiff lol"

Posted by: Reverend_Kelly_Kuffir at November 29, 2006 03:20 AM

A real reverend, eh? Calling the Pope gay (ponce), gleefully predicting his death, calling him mysogynistic, way past his "use date", etc... all the while employing such excellent language skills.

So, Jihad Watchers, be proud of your comments. You reflect well the intelligence, fairness, thoughtfulness, knowledge and tolerance of a democratic society. Well done.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 5:41 PM

"It only requires sober study, such that what is studied is thoroughly assimilated, and then a little imaginative sympathy... and figuring out ways to..."

The problem with this prescription is the lack of subject, or its vaguely implicit presence, in the sentence; and that's also the problem we face in our Western societies at large. Hugh's prescription can't be undertaken without an active subject of those verbs; and the reason why we lack such active subjects is the PC disease.

Posted by: remote_control at November 30, 2006 5:50 PM

The truth is that Jesus is looking for his lost sheep, to fine and bring them home. He, the Good Shepard is even looking for the lost sheep in the Muslim world, to bring them home to faith in him.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 30, 2006 5:54 PM

I wonder if Bartholomew is at all worried that an anti-Christian progrom might commence once the Pope leaves, which him as the first target. Same goes for Maronite leaders in Lebanon, who I doubt would stand with the pope for fear of assassination.

Posted by: aynrandgirl at November 30, 2006 6:11 PM

"August22, of course also accuses the Pope of not being harsh enough in his visit. I'd like to see August22 go to Turkey and put his money where his mouth is. I'll buy you a roundtrip ticket, how about that?"

Don't waste your money, Atheling. We know he'd only need the first half of the ticket.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 6:34 PM

Atheling:

You're going to work yourself into an early grave if you keep responding to everyone of the twits you quote above. A shame, since it's people of sincere and honest conviction, who recognize and value truth, who are going to win this struggle with Islam. Don't trouble yourself over them. As I've said elsewhere, their kind will always be around. The Pope's efforts will bear their good fruit in spite of any detractors. The greatness of his character, and the power of his words and of his spirit is beyond them and beyond the reach of their malice.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 6:42 PM

atheling...just a reminder that everyone is entitled to their opinion and to post it. (Like you did).
You may not like it, but thats life. Everyone has their supporters and detractors, you heard from the Popes detractors. Just because you dont agree with them, does not necessarilly make them wrong...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 30, 2006 6:50 PM

Assalamau Laikum Bigcatgirl,

I trust you are well...it's been a while.

You say "The truth is that Jesus is looking for his lost sheep, to fine and bring them home".

Well perhaps so...in an ideal world. I sense your nature is good and you see the things a little idealistically. I sense you are a person of faith but are afraid too...catgirl...soon your faith will be tested to the limit...can you give your all like so many yesterday's lost christians?

I'm sorry but the truth is that modern christianity is yesterday's faith...many of his lost sheep are no where to be found ...they are busy getting drunk and high on cocaine in the pubs and clubs of the West...this includes wild slutty womens...and they don't want to be found....and the rest ...well they have converted to Islam.

Only the fewest of the few, who decided to stay at home and look after their cats...only them will Jesus (PBUH) find....but are there enough of you?

Posted by: Naseem at November 30, 2006 6:50 PM

Naseem writes:...however IF the christians do win....Allah SWT will be no more...Islam will not be allowed to be practised...the question is will almighty Allah SWT ALLOW such a thing?

Allah will not be able to prevent his own death.
The death of a religion is caused by being 'found out'. Islam and it's demon god have been 'found out', and are headed for the trasheap of bad ideas...better get out before the garbage collector starts collecting...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 30, 2006 6:57 PM

"atheling... everyone has their supporters and detractors, you heard from the Popes detractors. Just because you dont agree with them, does not necessarilly make them wrong... "

Posted by: duh_swami

Actually, Duh_Swami, it does! Whether the Pope kissed the Koran or not is not a question of fact, NOT opinion, something one can indeed by VERY MUCH wrong about. And the fact is also that in nearly every ethical system known to humanity, religious and non-religious (secular) alike, it is acknowledged that spreading false information that damages a person's reputation is wrong!

I, too wish that Atheling would ease off a bit, but for different reasons than you. I can't imagine myself writing as much as he's been over this, and with so much intensity, without getting high blood pressure or at least gastro-intestinal trouble.

But I understand his indignation perfectly! For people to continue to spread information like that rumour in total disregard for the truth, refusing to retract accusations that are demonstrably false, goes against all sense of decency and fair play, and reflects a loss of moral value that will work against our side in the struggle with Islam, and that even in itself, without reference to that or any other agenda, is just plain rotten.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 7:04 PM

Correction:

I said "Whether the Pope kissed the Koran or not is not a question of fact"

Meant to say it IS a question of fact.

(but I'm sure you understand me very well just the same).

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 7:07 PM

“the process of secularisation has weakened the hold of (Christian) tradition” in Europe.

It's not secularization by itself that has weakened the hold of Christian tradition, it's a particular vehicle of secularization -- Anti-Western PC Multiculturalism.

There is much good in secularization, and this good may be boiled down into two qualities:

1) it is a historical cultural product (or at least a major by-product) of the evolution of Christianity itself;

and

2) it is inimical to the hold, and spread, of Islam.

The problem, then, is not secularization per se, but whether the concrete secularization that has evolved in the modern West can be disengaged from the PC Multiculturalist virus that has attached itself to it.

Posted by: remote_control at November 30, 2006 7:17 PM

templar:

See what I mean? We have duh swami (whose name is ever so more applicable in light of that last comment), who can't differentiate between fact and opinion.

Western Civilization is in deep doo doo.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 7:24 PM

And it ain't just because of Islam.

Posted by: atheling at November 30, 2006 7:28 PM

Off topic from Arab News:

Bush Supporters Are Loonier, Says Study

Ummah News Links

Posted by: ummahnewslinks at November 30, 2006 7:32 PM

Actually, I'm quite smitten with my Giorgio Armani zunnar.

Posted by: Shy Guy at November 30, 2006 8:15 PM

Atheling
I for one appreciate your efforts on behalf of Catholics on this site who resent cheap shots from the "Jack Chick" types. Since we believe that the Holy Father is the Vicar of Christ, it is reasonable for us to expect that he speak in a conciliatory manner. For others apparently, that is not acceptable. I am warlike but I don't want my religious leader to speak as I do.
My thanks and admiration to you brother and peace be with you.

Posted by: pismopal at November 30, 2006 8:19 PM

Court1:

Your complaint about my language is reasonable and legitimate. I apologize to you and to anyone elee scandalized or offended by that comment and retract it. It was improper. The only thing I will say in my defence is that I aimed it at a vague, generic social entity - a culture - of which I am myself a part, rather than at a specific concrete person - and one who holds a distinquished office at that - namely the Pope, as the other poster did.

Usually I speak much more optimistically about western secular culture, but there are times, and these days of the Papal visit to Turkey have been one of them, when I feel that the spritual values that I find important are very much under attack, and unreasonably so. Now these values, and the institution of the Church that stewards them, are by no means above criticism, but some of what is being said at the moment is irresponsible and slanderous, because it is a question of demonstrably proven fact, to whit, that the Pope did NOT kiss the koran and did NOT, at least unequivocally, support Turkey's EU bid. Like Atheling, I feel quite irritated about all of this. Further, there is at times some arrogance and chauvinism about secular culture as well, I would point out, although I think I may have read that into your post when it wasn't really there, and if so, I say again that its just because I've gotten into a very defensive mood over these last hours, especially with the false statements floating around the site about the Pope, whom I defend, incidentally not because he's MY SPIRITUAL leader but as a EUROPEAN leader who, for the most part, "gets it" about Islam.

Rest assured I'm glad to live in a secular age and would not prefer the Inquisition or the Middle Ages. I simply want to make the point that a secular society also needs to benefit from its spiritual traditions. I point out that these traditions and values include things like forgiveness, openness to the other, the desire for the good of all, compassion, and respect for the poor, all things on which secular tolerance is built.

Hope that clarifies my position. Again my apologies for causing offence.

Posted by: templar at November 30, 2006 8:51 PM

spealing of wearing a zunnar:

Malaysia is 60% muslim and so of course because they are over that threshold % of 20% they demand Islam is the official religion which in Malaysia it is.

Anyway I mention this just in case anyone is interested in reading some DHUMMI rules that we would have to probably adhere to under shiria law.This info actually comes from a chinese- malaysia political party in Malaysia internet site:

http://www.mca.org.my/services/printerfriendly.asp?file=/articles/exclusive/2002/2/311.html&lg=1

All freedom loving people everywhere need to keep fighting by spreading the word on this hateful philosophy. Doenst the dhummi/shiria thing sound alot like the Nazis rules for jews and others wearing distinctive markings on their clothing to singal them out?

ISLAM=NAZISM

Posted by: THE ALLIES SHALL WIN at November 30, 2006 10:26 PM

atheling...What I stated is fact. Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion. The rest of that is your opinion. You castigated these people for more than just the Pope not kissing the Bible.
I did not say I agree with any of them, I only said that you accusing them of whatever, does not necessarilly make them wrong, unless of course you and Templar are the only purveyors of truth.

"See what I mean? We have duh swami (whose name is ever so more applicable in light of that last comment), who can't differentiate between fact and opinion.
Western Civilization is in deep doo doo.
Posted by: atheling'

Cant help the personal insults...? Just ruined your credibility...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 30, 2006 11:34 PM

Naseem,

Those pub drinkers and wild slutty, women will be the very arm that will deliver the brutal blow to your fellow Islamists. They will not be dabbling in the intellectual foreplay that we see on this sight. They are about to be unleashed in Europe as a wave of political revoltions dispose the decadent jellyfish that now man the political podiums. And America contains the most vicious of them all made up of ancestors who were cast off from other lands all around the world. And here they are all armed and those who aren't can be because those who are armed have many.

Atheling and my Catholic friends:
Jesus came to bring the sword, I hope you remember that line as you read your bible. The Pope seems to be drawing the lines of division but it is not fast enough for some of the impetuous kinsmen on this site.

Do not doubt that the secular free man contains no spirituality, morality or courage to recognize and fight the forces of Islamic enslavement.

Posted by: Briars at November 30, 2006 11:43 PM

Because many commentators characterised him as a diplomatic blunderer after the pope rage business, Benedict was bound to finesse his vist to Turkey - making his points without looking as though he has ineptly angered the Turks. In fact it looks as though Erdogan has been out manoeuvred, because of his own eagerness to make the pope look like a beaten and remorseful man. Some of the MSM seem eager to play along with the Turkish line, saying that the pope turned towards Mecca in the Blue Mosque. I'd have thought the place would have been built to face in that direction.

Posted by: wallyUK at December 1, 2006 12:56 AM

duhswami:

Now you know how it feels.

Posted by: atheling at December 1, 2006 1:11 AM

Briars...About that sword...The sword that Jesus would bring is not the ordinary sword of the ordinary warrior.
The purpose of the this unique sword is to cut away the unwanted, like a surgeons knife. This sword seperates the real from the unreal. The wheat from the shaff. Good from evil. God from not God. God from Allah. The point of this sword can pierce to the heart of the matter. The swords name is 'Truth', and Islam does not have it. And never will. 'Know the truth and the truth will set you free'. Free from what? Islam in this case. You probably already know this stuff, but some others may not...thanks for bringing it up...

As far as secular free men are concerned, I suspect you mean atheists. There are a number of atheists that post on this site that dont seem lacking in courage, or morality. And they seem to know who the enemy is, and are pro-active. But you are right about spirituality. Most atheists dont have much of that, but that should not exclude them from resisting Islam and jihad. Islam is not at war with Just Catholics and the Pope, or even Christianity, Islam is at war with all non muslims, everywhere or anywhere. Hegemoney is Islams middle name. It is a form of creeping meatballism, that grows as it creeps, eventually devouring everything but itself. Every non-muslim should resist that. But you are right again that many wont. Lets hope there are enough that will, to get the job done...

Posted by: duh_swami at December 1, 2006 1:12 AM

PS-

It's my opinion, right? Don't I have a right to one? You defended everyone else's right to insult and libel the Pope, then when I allegedly "insult" you, you whine about it.

duh!

Posted by: atheling at December 1, 2006 1:12 AM

Briars said:

Do not doubt that the secular free man contains no spirituality, morality or courage to recognize and fight the forces of Islamic enslavement.

What about Camus?

Posted by: traeh at December 1, 2006 1:14 AM

atheling...I dont know what you are talking about.
I dont 'feel' anything about it at all...whatever 'it' is.
PS...It must be those cheap burgers, indigestion or something...I never said anything at all about your right to state an opinion. You just made that up.
It's ok...feel free to be creative. Did you know that alluminum hydroxide gel does wonders for overacidity?

Posted by: duh_swami at December 1, 2006 1:39 AM

Robert and all,
I guess I am simpler than than all you folks who see such profound power in the Pope's methods here---like he and his staff are such wise strategists in a chess game--as if this will force the muslims to do anything. Sucking up and pretending got us this far with these results. The Pople's act is religious appeasement.

Tell me wise ones, what business does the head of the Church of Rome have sucking up to a false teachers and heretics like he did when he called islam a religion of peace?

You with your eyes open should remember--there was a day when the Apostles of the church spoke fearlessly of there being only one way of salvation.

10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]'[b] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

This message was is not PC. It cost all of these Apostles their lives to hold to that confession--and by their blood and their testimony the newly born church grew and flourished.

Now a bold proclamation of Christ's resurrection is replaced by dead politics and sucking up. This is a quenching of the fire of the Holy Spirit by the "apostle" of the church. Read the record:

Acts 4:18 ...Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

Acts 5:40They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

Acts 12:1 It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them. 2He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword

Acts 14:19Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. 20But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe.

et al.....

Do the actions of this apostle Benedict resemble those of the apostles in the Scriptrure? Show me. Yes he is being kind and gentle. So is my bathroom rug. What is being proclaimed to the world by the girlie man approach in facing the sworn enemies of the gospel?

Posted by: BB at December 1, 2006 1:49 AM

"Tell me wise ones, what business does the head of the Church of Rome have sucking up to a false teachers and heretics like he did when he called islam a religion of peace?"

Posted by BB

I guess that I must be the simplest of all, because I am clearly missing something that others see plainly. So PLEASE, BB, tell me! Where ... when ... how (!) did he say this?

I've been over the texts of his speeches so far, and I just don't find anything resembling a reference to "Islam as a religion of peace".

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2006/index_turkey_en.htm

Now I'm not just reflexively defending the Pope here - I have engaged in withering criticism of some of his predecessors, including JPII, but Benedict has seemed to perform well so far, given the constraints a Pope is under.

There are grounds for reasonable, informed criticism of his actions on this visit (see Court1's comments above).

But this "religion of peace" business even sounds too cliche to be real. It's like a bunch of petulant children calling one another bad names. If that's what we've become, we do not deserve to win the struggle against Islamic domination.

Posted by: templar at December 1, 2006 3:02 AM

remote_control said:

There is much good in secularization, and this good may be boiled down into two qualities:

1) it is a historical cultural product (or at least a major by-product) of the evolution of Christianity itself;

and

2) it is inimical to the hold, and spread, of Islam.

The problem, then, is not secularization per se, but whether the concrete secularization that has evolved in the modern West can be disengaged from the PC Multiculturalist virus that has attached itself to it.

I agree.

Some forms of secularization unmoor human beings from everything but physical experience. Thus people float into a void of absolute relativism, nihilism, and extreme multiculturalism. I suppose you've already read Nietzsche's "God is dead" passage, but it gives a remarkably vivid feeling of how one variety of secularization metaphysically unmoors people so that even tentative intimations of absolutes are felt to be impossible:

The Madman. Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning lighted a lantern and ran to the market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek God! I seek God!" As there were many people standing about who did not believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement. Why? is he lost? said one. Has he strayed away like a child? said another. Or does he keep himself hidden? Is he afraid of us? Has he taken a sea voyage? Has he emigrated? - the people cried out laughingly, all in a hubbub. The insane man jumped into their midst and transfixed them with his glances. "Where is God gone?" he called out. "I mean to tell you! We have killed him, you and I! We are all his murderers! But how have we done it? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we loosened this earth from its sun? Whither does it now move? Whither do we move? Away from all suns? Do we not dash on unceasingly? Backwards, sideways, forwards, in all directions? Is there still an above and below? Do we not stray, as through infinite nothingness? Does not empty space breathe upon us? Has it not become colder? Does not night come on continually, darker and darker? Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning?[...]the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, so that it broke in pieces and was extinguished. "I come too early," he then said. "I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men's ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star - and yet they have done it themselves!"

Sociologist/economist/theologian Peter Berger in one of his books points out the contradiction in absolutizing relativism. He grants relativism its due but insists it captures only an aspect of every human experience. He asks how the relativized modern can rediscover some contact with absolutes. His argument is that the authority of religious traditions, by itself, is no longer sufficient. Now, he argues, the only authentic solution is for the individual to critically approach the traditions, and tentatively and freely select the one (if any) that best accords with and enlightens his own direct, open-ended experience of the sacred. Berger argues it is possible to gain direct intimations (an oxymoron, but an intentional one, since the experience described is paradoxical) of absolutes and of the Absolute, and thus to know, with what he calls "mellow certainty," (an oxymoronic partial certainty open to revision with each new moment) the reality of absolutes, truth, and the divine, and to understand how relativism, though necessarily an aspect of finite, fallible human experience, is not all that human beings experience.

I should probably try to be less prolix around here, and follow more your relatively laconic, taciturn, to-the-point style. Maybe next post.

Posted by: traeh at December 1, 2006 3:04 AM

As to the Catholic Church, it does not surprise me the Pope would molify the Muslim. As a Protestant I understand "the Church"es apostasy in the Middle Ages was a reason for Islam to bud and grow. "The Church" (Catholicism) is not synominous with Christianity. The idea of a head priest to represent all Christians is problematic at best and not of N.T. Biblical
teaching. The real successes of modern Western Civilization began with the Martin Luther reformations and the printing press. The Catholic Church is the Inquistation, the state run church, turning the other cheek to Hitler, and more recently the homo-priest scandals. NOT THAT THE PROTESTANT CHURCH IS PERFECT.LOL These posts got me thinking that it would be alot more interesting (and productive?) if Billy Graham or a even a Pat Robertson was in Turkey instead. Really believe they would be challenging
the Muslims with Bible and scripture. The Turks would kill them! That would wake up the free people. The milk-toast political correctness that is "the Church" and the Pope is what many of my European ancestors were pursecuted by, and fleed from, 200+ years ago. (Jesus was not for state institutionalised religion ya know!)The Pope won't even get past the sign of the Cross so as not to offend or more importantly risk his sweet and important neck. Wish a real live Fundamentalist would be there now, not some old guy who doesn't speak for many of us and doesn't represent us. Only creates more confusion of everything as he shuffles back to the Vatican. Ughh. Frustrating.

Posted by: kyx-tian at December 1, 2006 4:51 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Christianinty has it's problems...,but how deep rooted has only been examplified to me in this thread.

LOL, most peoples in the West DON'T CARE....or wish to be associated with the church...be it Catholic, Prodistent, Orthodox...etc.

They don't care that Jesus (PBUH) was a shaeed to atone the sins of modern man. Whether he was the son of God...(I mean come on if he was, then this is a BIG thing) they simply aren't bothered....whether they wish to be saved...I don't see them queueing up....LOL so different from Islam.

LOL Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot ...you faithless fools. A faithless and godless society never works. Moral codes and disciplines are necessary. OK so you can have a bath each morning to clean your body...but what about the mind...it needs cleansing too...spiritually.

Maan you christians are in trouble.

The "war" has now changed in my mind. It is no longer a faith war....christianinty is an irrelevence...I can count the number of faith people here in less than the fingers of 2 hands Catgirl, Templar, Aethling, Champ, Witness... and a coupla others....but I can mention 10s of whom couldn't care.

But it is not a war of freedom either...for Islam has freedom too...it's just a different definition...e.f freedom to wear the veil...freedom from preying male eyes etc.

So what are you peoples fighting over now....forget it....just convert....see you at your nearest Mosque....

Salaam to one and all.

Posted by: Naseem at December 1, 2006 5:39 AM

They don't care that Jesus (PBUH) was a shaeed to atone the sins of modern man. Whether he was the son of God...(I mean come on if he was, then this is a BIG thing) they simply aren't bothered....whether they wish to be saved...I don't see them queueing up....LOL so different from Islam.

Hello, Naseem

I see you continue to celebrate being a non-Muslim Muslim propagandist. Enjoy your celebrity.

Got a verse you might like, and a story. First the verse (Jesus speaking):

Matthew 7:12-14 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

And now the story:

Luke 8:4-18 While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown."
When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

His disciples asked him what this parable meant. He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
" 'though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.'

"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

"No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open. Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 1, 2006 6:02 AM

Morocco jails German for trying to convert Muslims

Reuters
Wednesday, November 29, 2006; 12:40 PM

RABAT (Reuters) - A Moroccan court jailed a German tourist for six months for attempting to convert Muslims in the southern resort of Agadir, officials said on Wednesday.

The court in Agadir, Morocco's main tourist destination, found the 64-year-old man guilty of trying to "shake the faith of a Muslim," they added.

The court also fined him 500 dirhams ($60) in its verdict issued late on Tuesday.

Court officials named the German of Egyptian origin as Sadek Noshi Yassa, who was arrested last week as he was distributing books and CDs about the Christian faith to young Muslim Moroccans in the street, the officials said.

Under Moroccan law "anyone who employs incitements to shake the faith of a Muslim or to convert him to another religion" can be jailed for up to six months and fined.

The verdict came after local media reports that some Christians had launched a clandestine campaign to convert thousands of Muslim Moroccans to Christianity.

There are about 20,000 expatriate Christians in Morocco, most of them living in Rabat and Casablanca, according to estimates by European diplomats.

Posted by: Arnie at December 1, 2006 7:18 AM

You may want to have a look at this site too.
Very revealing ...

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php

Posted by: Arnie at December 1, 2006 7:24 AM

OK. I've lurked here long enough. I'm going to start posting. I was worried that the pope's penitent behavior was being manipulated by possibly 'the illuminati' ie Bilderberger types but now I don't know what to think.

Posted by: sheiknbake4pork at December 1, 2006 8:09 AM

I have no doubt that there are certain visitors to this site who are extremely rude, ignorant and bigoted when it comes to all things Catholic. BB takes the honours for perhaps the rudest and most bigoted comments. The person who pulled the Constantine comment aka "a religion cobbled together by Constantine" gets an honourable mention as the most ignorant person to have posted a comment. Constantine was a pagan Emperor. The only thing he did was to make Christianity legal. He was not a leader in the Christian Church. The kind of comment that gives Constantine more credit than his due comes direct from either a Jack Chick comic strip or something as stupid as that tract "The Trail of Blood" - a tract, I might add that did not contain any real history. The same goes for the tracts that have been based on that pack of lies.

The other most ignorant comment belongs to all those who continue with their blatant misunderstanding of Papal Infallibility. The Office of the Bishop of Rome issues the decrees that relate to matters of faith and morals that are infallible.

I will reserve my harshest criticism for Rev Kelly. I am glad that a woman is not in charge of the Catholic Church, because it would be totally messed up due to the wishy washy values of women who promote contraception and abortion on demand, as well as euthanasia on demand. Pope Benedict has done all of the right things. He has not wavered from his stance that there must be dialogue between Christians and Islam. He has not wavered in his comments that all must be free to worship God according to their beliefs. The situation in these Islamic countries is extremely delicate. A woman with the brains and mouth of Hilary Clinton might think that she can go into a Muslim country and say what she thinks, but thinking women would not be so stupid and they would respect the sensibilities of the host nation. We are dealing with people who are mentally certifiable. This woman could not have read the Regensberg address regarding faith and reason, and that there needs to be a reassessment in secular Europe.

I, for one, do not agree that we must go to war to defeat Islam. I, for one, do not believe that all Muslims are unreachable. There are many fine Muslims (does not inclued stupid Naseem) in this world, and they are clear thinkers. There are Sufi Muslims who reject all forms of violence. A number of present day Turks are Sufi. It is worth noting that only a handful of people protested over Benedicts visit.

Erdogan played a game because he was not going to meet Benedict. In the end he agreed to a meeting at the airport. He tried to use the meeting to bolster his own case. Instead, Belgium has moved against Turkey's entrance into the EU. I am not willing to get excited over the comments made by Erdogan, who is a man who does not have the backbone to address the inequities of non-Muslims in Turkey. Benedict delivered a message about the inequity facing his Christian compatriots. What more can a religious leader deliver to political hacks?

Posted by: Maggie4Life at December 1, 2006 3:22 PM

Despite all the doom and gloom, the good news is that the tide is turning towards the Christain faith, which also includes the Catholic Church. A book and this URL backs this up :

http://catholicreport.org/?id=206

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 1, 2006 5:23 PM

There are even young Catholic adults, in this case, women, who are of the JPII generation are rediscovering religious life and the habit and whipel or nun's veil. This gives me confort.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 1, 2006 5:28 PM

Forgot to post the URL and article, of all places, "Time Magazine" which published this write-up a few weeks ago.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1558292-1,00.html

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at December 1, 2006 5:30 PM

At least in the case of this new generation of Catholic nuns, they are giving their lives over to Christ and to live the Gospel message to the fullest.