Hugh,

While locating these tomes, did you uncover any insights into how these works were received in their respective time periods?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 2, 2006 7:15 PM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Hugh starts an interesting thread...the correct interpetration of Islam is all important...particularily for your childrens.

Your childrens can be an equal to the muslim child....why to remain inferior to the muslim?...but there are things that need to be done to get to that stage.

Study the ways of the mussalmaan...or get left behind. More and more of this will happen as Islam starts to take over. In 50 years time, will the indeginious Amerike minority bear 2nd class citizenship in his own country? Before laughing , let me remind you of the Red Indian's plight who heart-breakingly sent their childrens to the white man's school to learn the white man's ways in order to survive and compete. This was ultra-important for them...they needed to be able to write down their about their culture, achievements, victories...before it got lost forever.

You too need to start thinking about this now! It may even be the case that in 50-100 years Inshallah....as Islam dominates in a profound way...that English is replaced by the superior Arabic.

Like for example I have learned English to compete and hold a dialogue with you peoples, learned to accomodate and acclimatise to your culture....you childerns will have to do the same within Islam.

Global warming will mean that the temperauture all around the globe will rise anyway...arabs and Pakis are masters at knowing what to wear in the heat...your childerns too will dress with a "banded rag over their head"....but you need to start now.

Teach them arabic...let them think like muslims, learn our likes and dislikes, they need to write in arabic....for they too will need to record the achievements of kafur of yesteryear...like you mourn and yearn for your ancestors in Turkey when the pope went there, your (minority) childrens need will something to cling onto to...if written in English...no one will be able to read it in 100 years... don't say Naseem didn't remind you...I will not be held responsible for that.

Posted by: Naseem at December 2, 2006 7:43 PM

By subtle and ill-boding contrast, we find in the travelogues of the French writer Pierre Loti (1850-1923) -- particularly his journal about his sojourn in the Ottoman Empire in the late 19th century, Constantinople en 1890 (texte présenté et annoté par Jacques Huré et illustré de photographies d'époque; Istanbul : Éditions Isis, 1990) and his journal about his travels in late 19th-century Persia, Vers Ispahan (texte présenté par K.A. Kelly et annoté par K.C. Cameron; Exeter, England : University of Exeter, 1989) -- which slowly reveal to the reader that peculiar psychology of the nascent PC Multiculturalist and his irresponsible and rudderless disdain for his own West coupled with his admiring fascination for the Orient and its Noble Savagery -- the signs & symptoms of the aetiology of the disease under whose numbing thrall we labor now (though I have yet to read his Les Massacres d'Arménie, Paris : Calmann-Lévy, 1918, whose title seems to indicate perhaps a change of heart in his latter days).

Posted by: remote_control at December 2, 2006 7:46 PM

They had no telly, and may have needed a linkboy to avoid getting pinked, but every lad back then had heard about the Mogul fortresses of Candahar and Cabul, and Saracen Devils afoot.

Our doom is to re-learn those ancient lessons which were once our commonplace knowledge.

Posted by: jsla at December 2, 2006 8:01 PM

Greetings in the name of our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Unfortunately for islam, people are waking up to the truth. I really don't see a future where well-educated people,used to freedom, will tolerate the mohammedan's attempts to subjugate them.

I know many people who will die before embracing a false god. So don't hold your breath if you expect the world to become islamic.

Posted by: Stand fast in the liberty at December 2, 2006 8:41 PM

Wa alaikum salaam, Naseem,

I see you are finished "thinking deeply" since our last repartee (both of us would have to be attempting to communicate to declare it a "dialogue").

Our prior exchanges are starting to remind me of a verse from Matthew 7:

Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine.

If you've experienced more than a twinge of interest in the gospel, you might also want to read Hebrews 6 and 12.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 2, 2006 9:07 PM

"Your childrens can be an equal to the muslim child....why to remain inferior to the muslim?...but there are things that need to be done to get to that stage."

My children are vastly superior to to muslim children in that they have been raised to believe in Liberty, to have faith in their own abilities and to question anything that smells like tyranny...such as Islam.

"Global warming will mean that the temperauture all around the globe will rise anyway...arabs and Pakis are masters at knowing what to wear in the heat...your childerns too will dress with a "banded rag over their head"....but you need to start now."

Would you please explain why so many muslims seem to congregate in Michigan? I guarantee they will experience no "global warming" in that neck of the woods.

As for me, I know what it feels like to be standing on a concrete slab when it's 110 degrees in the shade and the only shade available is the 2X4 stud wall that has to built in that heat. I wear a straw hat, not a "banded rag". The straw hat is cooler.

The banded rag would only cause the brain to over heat...which would expain a lot about Islam.

Posted by: USBeast at December 2, 2006 9:26 PM

Naseem, you sure are a doosy.

"Your childrens can be an equal to the muslim child....why to remain inferior to the muslim?"

Whaaat! Equal to a Muslim. How silly. Inferior?
Only a Muslim thinks that way. The other five billion people on this planet wouldnt agree. The latest scientific study done worldwide on intelligence and average IQ put Muslims at the bottom with an average IQ of 72. Seventy is considered mentaly retarded. So no thanks. While on the average the IQ of Americans is 105. With 20 percent over 120. But less than one percent of Muslims are over 120. So much for your superior Muslim.

"Study the ways of the mussalmaan...or get left behind"

We have studied the ways of Muslims. Thats why so many of us are calling on our Gov. to make Islam and the koran against the law.

"This was ultra-important for them...they needed to be able to write down their about their culture, achievements, victories...before it got lost forever."

Oh really? How many Indians in America do you know? I know plenty of them. In fact I talk to them all the time. What makes you think they could'nt write down their culture, achievements, victories. Geesh, you sure are ignorant.

"as Islam dominates in a profound way...that English is replaced by the superior Arabic."

Your living in a fools paradise. Islam has not nor will it ever dominate this world in a profound way. It may cause alot of death and destruction but in the end it will be smashed in a profound way.

"Global warming will mean that the temperauture all around the globe will rise anyway...arabs and Pakis are masters at knowing what to wear in the heat...your childerns too will dress with a "banded rag over their head"....but you need to start now."

Oh come on. How silly. Global warming is a joke.
The US department of Agriculture has had to revise their planting guides from 1964, why?
Because the planting zones are getting colder.
Thats why. You dont think we know how to dress for the heat in this country? If that wasnt so ignorant it would be funny. We certainly dont need to wear rags on our head to stay cool.
I guess thats the superior intelect of your 72 IQ
arabs and pakis.

To respond to the rest of your diatribe is almost pointless.

May I suggest that what is needed for Muslims to do is to find their way to the cross. Then and only then will the world be at peace.

Posted by: frodnum at December 2, 2006 9:27 PM

Two-thirds of the postings on this particular thread have nothing to do with the article they are ostensibly comments upon. This disturbs, and disturbs especially on the very day when a charge has been made (see "The Unnatural History of Selbourne" below) that as manners maketh man, postings make a website, and a legitimate way to judge a website's principals, it is claimed, is on the basis of unmoderated comments.

If evidence of the falseness of this were needed, it is beautifully present here, on this thread. No one could connect either the matter or the manner of the original piece with some of the remarks made in the postings on the thread below. Selbourne has now been presented with evidence that disproves his proposition.

Why then, he may ask, are those irrelevant or wild postings not simply eliminated? Often they are simply not noticed. In this case, they were noticed but, as it happens, technical difficulties at the moment prevent their disappearance. That's why.

Posted by: Hugh at December 2, 2006 9:57 PM

Don't forget Andre Servier, who warned the French government elites about Muslim immigration in 1923.

His Book Online -

ANDRE’ SERVIER’S ISLAM AND THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE MUSULMAN

Posted by: John Sobieski at December 2, 2006 10:11 PM

Hugh,

I apologize, but the "pedogogical" trolls are multiplying and becoming more annoying.

If you do have a spare minute, I would like your thoughts on the varying receptions of these works over time. Were they well received in their time, or were there contemporary apologists? Were there turn of the century Armstrong's and Esposito's?

It seems as though the progeny of the cathode ray tube, as well as simple dust, have managed to bury works such as these. Pehaps today's scholarship is required to be less rigorous to accommodate a shortened attention span. In your opinion, is this what made the modern apologists seem plausible, or was it the same then?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 2, 2006 10:34 PM

Servier was allowed to use nouns and adjectives off scope now. Therein lies our quandary.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 2, 2006 11:05 PM

Hugh with all due respect, l could not give a damm about any of European scholarship' elite have to say, its because of the elite class of Europe that so many muslims have been allowed to immigrate to Europe that we are now facing this problem. It is the European elite that continues today with its ignorance of muslims that they cannot see the trees for the forest. Its is common sense that so many have lost, to see the ugly truth about islam. Before l know what was writtin in the koran and its haddiths, l knew using my instincts that islam is vile, evil and corrupt.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at December 2, 2006 11:46 PM

Mr. Fitzgerald, have you ever read The Life and Religion of Mohammed by Fr. J.L. Menezes-- and if so, what did you think of the accuracy of Fr. Menezes woek?

Posted by: Dennis_Mahon at December 2, 2006 11:49 PM

Hugh said:

In the course of research for my study of Islam...

Maybe it's obvious to others, but does "my study" in the above quote refer to a book? As in "a book-length study"? Or does it just mean the activity of studying? Since Hugh's post is titled "A Prefatory Note," it sounds as if an exciting book might be about to appear. Has that been announced already?

Posted by: traeh at December 3, 2006 12:03 AM

Reading "Naseem" reminds me how lucky I am not to have been cursed by the personality cult of Mohhamed (pee be upon him). I dont need to consider myself or my culture as superior, i let it speak for itself.

Posted by: payingattention at December 3, 2006 5:02 AM

once again, Naseem's snide remarks have hi-jacked the thread. i do wish folks would ignore him.
catstrangler101 has, i think, missed the point which jsla has grasped. the timeless nature of islam means that the experiences of 17th century non-muslims as travellers, soldiers slaves and converts are as relevant and informative now as when they were written.
after a brief period during which our technological dominance allowed us to forget the fears of the 'terrible turk', we are now back in a time when those fears pre-occupy us daily, where travel is made dangerous by muslim pirates, we feel that our entire civilization is under threat etc.

Posted by: M Al-Content at December 3, 2006 6:43 AM

"Yeah, well, those are pretty good books..."
-- from a posting above

Yes, I found them to be so. I derived great profit and pleasure from every single one.

Posted by: Hugh at December 3, 2006 1:04 PM

Hugh..
Has Gilbert White been refuted?
I haven't read or heard about this.
I always gathered his theories were never written in stone..merely a gent looking round his garden as many naturalists did at that time.

Selbourne is a magical place that I know of and White's studies informed and inspired Darwin.
Is this what your cleverly alluring to?
The anti-Darwinian sentiments that abound here.

Creationist's will never give up.

Maybe next year when the particle accelerator in Cern is switched on we can prove once and and for all how the universe came to being.
Maybe all our energy needs will solved too.
"Godspeed" to scientists.

As for proof of differing opinions of Muslims over the centuries there's still plenty of pubs here called the Saracens Head,although I suspect most wont know why.
As you know it's 50 years of Saudi Da'wa that's done the whitewash job on Islam.
The paint is peeling everywhere and the cracks are beginning to show.
What needs to happen more is to translate your fine words for the masses and get the message out there.
Actions definately speak louder than words and every brutal act in the name of Islam wakes more and more people to the danger.
It's happening,just maybe not as fast at it could.

Posted by: ovinesongs at December 3, 2006 2:29 PM

Also Hugh,it's a huge amount to take in by your average joe.I absolutely get it and understand all the fundamentals but to appeal to the "man in the street"..that's the holy grail to defeat the jihad.Churchill was very aware from his various military outings in the middle east long before he went into politics.
How people's opinions have differed from history is I believe something to with a relative period of post war stability combined with a campaign of multiculturalism and an attempt to homegenise us all.

To sum it up my dear old Mum said to me the other day
"I thought you were a very tolerant person and liked all people regardless of where they came from?"
"Very true,Mam,I says...thing is these people dont like me so I treat like with like and I didn't start the fight but you can be sure I'll finish it"

You see we are used to seeing all ethnic minorities as equal.It's only now that the fruition of such immigration is becoming self evident to everyone who lives in such areas.I've said before on here that i've mainly from being a poor musician lived in the "ghetto" besides from the fact that on a daily basis I quite like my muslim neighbours.
I've also live in Hindu/Sikh neighbourhoods and the contrast is very obvious..Diwali being a great festival of light and friendship and it's very pleasant indeed.Compare that to the general from my day to day experience,the fairly recent, malevelent atmosphere in muslim areas and It is definatvely linked to radicalism which has been allowed to take hold by successive Leftist PC governments here in my part of the U.K. who refuse to challenge these scumsuckers.
Anyway I've digressed too far.
The point is that we see Muslims in a different light now mainly down to Saudi funded and Leftist propaganda machines.
I can gaurantee you that even the most Liberal minded fair game Brit is singing a different tune to what the media portrays...But isn't that always the case.

Posted by: ovinesongs at December 3, 2006 3:19 PM

Hugh,

I know you list lots of motives as driving the general ignorance displayed by Western leaders, but I am curious if you think that these Western leaders in some way envy the leaders in the Islamic world, at least in the way that the Muslim elites can basically get away with whatever they want? When I used to read accounts of the old Soviet Union and how its leadership had what the common man did not, it struck me that simple cupidity probably drove a lot of the "fellow travelers" in the West, who otherwise had to work for their bread or go without, while under a Communist system, they'd be living the Life of Reilly. Is a similar dynamic at work in the West? I know that you post on the monetary rewards of being a Muslim apologist, but do you think that the Westerners who fit that description are actually the same sort of sadists that we see holding power in the Middle East?

Posted by: venividivici at December 3, 2006 8:09 PM

Naseem,

One of the reasons that Westerners are putting up with Muslims for the time being is that our economies are very prosperous, leading to a sort of "live and let live" mentality that allows Islam to flourish beyond its actual contribution to human society, and especially beyond its contribution to the West, which is nil.

As more and more Muslim terrorism hits the West, one of the unfortunate side effects will be to grind our economies to a halt. When that happens, Muslims will be blamed and the war on Islam will begin in earnest. If anything, you should be preparing for the final victory of the Western modus vivendi in the Dar al-Islam. Then, we Westerners will get to work rebuilding our economies to the point at which we are now, only the Muslims won't be around to wreck it a second time.

Posted by: venividivici at December 3, 2006 8:18 PM

"I am curious if you think that these Western leaders in some way envy the leaders in the Islamic world, at least in the way that the Muslim elites can basically get away with whatever they want?"
-- from a posting above

No. Muslim "elites" -- that is, those who rule -- must constantly worry about being replaced by others, and replacement usually involves killing. Do you envy the Assads, murderous father and murderous son, wondering if the Ikhwan will come to kill them tonight? Would you have envied Saddam Hussein and his crew? Do you envy the thieving Al-Saud or the less thieving, because there is so much less to appropriate, Mubarak and his son and cronies? Uneasy lies the heads of all of those states. Besides, who can stand those countries? Don't you realize they are at their absolute happiest when they visit the West, when they check into those presidential suites at the Raphael or Crillon (my god, how Arafat loved to travel, how he loved those blonde boys and that Infidel-paid luxe). Do you think Mubarak likes living in Egypt if he can be traipsing around to the capitals of the West? They would all suffer greatly if easy access to the West, not only to medical care, and education for their children, but also access to the West as combination fun-fair and department store and brothel. They couldn't stand it.

No one among the Western elite envies them, any more than any Western leader envied Stalin or later Mao. They're often stupid, often corrupt, those leaders -- but not bonkers.

Posted by: Hugh at December 3, 2006 10:16 PM

Well, Hugh, the only solution is to take their power (income) away.  This means, stop buying oil from them.  There are two ways to do that:  you can either throw them off the land which has the oil (probably not going to fly), or you can replace oil as an energy source.

I have a proposal for the latter here (cross-posted here, with a little more user-friendliness but much less incisive commentary).

Posted by: Engineer-Poet at December 3, 2006 11:07 PM

Naseem you wrote.. Before laughing , let me remind you of the Red Indian's plight who heart-breaking sent their children's to the white man's school to learn the white man's ways in order to survive and compete.
Naseem, although there were some terrible things done to the Indians which any human being should have been executed for, there is a big difference in the Indian children going to white mans school, to being slaughtered unless you convert to Islam...
I think you will find Naseem, that the infidel will become not so loving, considerate, tolerant and will one day soon wake up and start to claw back... The trouble is the west cannot conceive how people can be so cruel,, like tying babies and children to the legs of the infidel parents and pulling the parents apart while the baby/child screams with the pain until it dies from being ripped apart by the Muslim savages, how inhuman is that...yep we sure all want to belong to this religion of peace,
Nassem I would rather be tortured and die than have children who will then grow up in such a evil cruel religion, and it is no good saying that we do not understand,, there is NO excuse for delighting and glorifying over cruelty as Mohammad and his merry men did and as your brothers do today, it belongs in the realm of spirituslim. Even if I felt that the people that I was destroying were evil, as muslims do with us...there is no need to torture and delight in it,, it is inhuman. What your religion dishes out is satanic, and satan would be delighted with what you do ...

Posted by: Gaye at December 4, 2006 1:12 AM

Hugh, you are so right, but unless one knows these books there is nothing to comment on... Whilst I do a lot of reading myself Hugh, I and most others do not have the time to read all that you have here. I admire you for your reading of such books, but you really have not give us something to build upon, you have given us the names of these books and I thought that, that was all you were doing...you were letting us know that these were the books that you had studies, and thanks for that, if I had time I too would read them but I can only depend on the immense knowledge that you and others like you have acquired and the eloquent way in which you speak (write) to us about it all...and I am indeed very grateful for that...

Posted by: Gaye at December 4, 2006 1:32 AM

"most of us out here do not have a trust-fund..."
-- from a posting above

Nor do I. Is one to conclude from your remarks that only those with trust-funds bother to study? Is that your point? Only the very rich can afford to inform themselves? This is nonsense.

But if you do bother to do some research, don't bother looking for those particular titles and authors.

"It is a luxury to be understood." Emerson.

Posted by: Hugh at December 5, 2006 1:51 AM

How do you know my health is excellent? I've been feeling poorly for the last two days. I can hardly lift a finger.

Posted by: Hugh at December 5, 2006 1:18 PM

"these are excellent books..."
-- from a posting above

But how do you know these are "excellent books"? If you haven't bothered to look at even one of them, how can you write that? Question Authority. It's a bumper sticker. I would never quarrel with a bumper sticker.

Posted by: Hugh at December 5, 2006 5:54 PM