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Framing this discussion in the context of Klein's radio stunt gives the impression, which no doubt is just what Bernd Debusmann wanted to do, that any distrust of any Muslims in the U.S. is an exercise in crypto-Nazism. And of course, "ignorance" is the problem. Efforts will be stepped up, as if they weren't already in full swing, to convince Americans that any Muslim who commits violence in the name of Islam is not a genuine Muslim, and that the genuine article is peaceful, peaceful, peaceful. And tolerant. One problem with such "education" efforts is that they do nothing to prevent "genuine" Muslims from turning without warning into "false" ones.
Do Muslims in America really want to decrease fear and mistrust directed toward them? Easy. Just follow these four simple steps:
1. Stop blaming violent acts committed by Muslims in the name of Islam on the various sins of unbelievers.
2. Establish nationwide, compulsory programs in American mosques to teach against the jihad ideology and Islamic supremacism, by means including an explicit and definitive rejection of the literal meaning of many passages of Qur'an and Hadith.
3. Stop saying violent or hateful things in private when you think no non-Muslims are around. For example, the imam Umar Abdul-Jalil, executive director of ministerial services for the New York City Department of Correction, was secretly recorded last year while speaking at an Islamic conference in Arizona. Muslims, he said, invoking Qur’an 48:29, must be "compassionate with each other" and "hard against the kufr [unbeliever]." In Britain, Hamid Ali, imam of the mosque frequented by the July 7 bombers, praised the bombers and called their terror attack "good" in a conversation secretly recorded by an undercover journalist. Publicly, he had condemned the attacks. In a mosque in the Czech Republic, a Muslim secretly filmed by a documentary filmmaker says Islamic Shari’a law, including the stoning of adulterers, should be adopted by the Czech Republic. Cleveland imam Fawaz Damra, who has since been deported for failing to disclose his ties to terror groups, signed the Fiqh Council of North America’s condemnation of terrorism, despite having declared at an Islamic conference that "terrorism, and terrorism alone, is the path to liberation."
Do such incidents mean that every Muslim who professes to have adopted Western notions of pluralism and the equality of dignity and rights of non-Muslims and Muslims is dissembling? Of course not. But they do mean that non-Muslims are perfectly justified in being suspicious even when Muslim profess moderation and opposition to terror. Consequently deeds, not just words, are needed. To conclude my four recommendations, genuinely anti-terror Muslims should:
4. Actively work with Western law enforcement officials to identify and apprehend jihadists within Western Muslim communities.
But it is unlikely that any of that will be done. Instead, these poor mistrusted, misunderstood folks will keep crying "Islamophobia" and trying to manipulate the American legal and political systems.
By Bernd Debusmann for Reuters, with thanks to all who sent this in:
WASHINGTON (Reuters)- When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly.The first caller to the station in Washington said that Klein must be "off his rocker." The second congratulated him and added: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us."
Another said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver's licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. "What good is identifying them?" he asked. "You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans."
At the end of the one-hour show, rich with arguments on why visual identification of "the threat in our midst" would alleviate the public's fears, Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. It drew out reactions that are not uncommon in post-9/11 America.
"I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland
"For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting.
"Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous."
The show aired on November 26, the Sunday after the Thanksgiving holiday, and Klein said in an interview afterwards he had been surprised by the response.
"The switchboard went from empty to totally jammed within minutes," said Klein. "There were plenty of callers angry with me, but there were plenty who agreed."
POLLS SHOW WIDESPREAD ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT
Those in agreement are not a fringe minority: A Gallup poll this summer of more than 1,000 Americans showed that 39 percent were in favor of requiring Muslims in the United States, including American citizens, to carry special identification.
Roughly a quarter of those polled said they would not want to live next door to a Muslim and a third thought that Muslims in the United States sympathized with al Qaeda, the extremist group behind the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington.
A poll carried out by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an advocacy group, found that for one in three Americans, the word Islam triggers negative connotations such as "war," "hatred" and "terrorist." The war in Iraq has contributed to such perceptions.
Klein's show followed a week of heated discussions on talk radio, including his own, and online forums over an incident on November 22 involving six Muslim clerics. They were handcuffed and taken off a US Airways flight after passengers reported "suspicious behavior" that included praying in the departure gate area.
The clerics, on their way to a meeting of the North American Imams Federation, were detained in a holding cell, questioned by police and
FBI agents, and released. Muslim community leaders saw the incident as yet more evidence of anti-Muslim prejudice.IGNORANCE SEEN AS KEY PROBLEM
Several American Muslims interviewed on the subject of prejudice over the past few weeks said ignorance was at the core of the problem.
"The level of knowledge is very, very low," said Mohamed Esa, a U.S. Muslim of Arab descent who teaches a course on Islam at McDaniel College in Maryland. "There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and some people think they are all terrorists."
Hossam Ahmed, a retired Air Force Reserve colonel who occasionally leads prayer meetings for the small Muslim congregation at the
Pentagon, agreed. "Ignorance is the number one problem. Education is of the essence."
Posted by Robert at December 3, 2006 7:43 AM
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I guess this jerk wanted to pull a "Borat" on his listeners--the same listeners whose attention and participation ensure his salary is paid and his advertisers do well. With "superior" jerks like him, Nazi Germany is more likely to happen--he'd like to ensure that folks who share his open-minded beliefs get installed over the rest of us. Well, jerks like him will be the first to be punished by their eventual Islamic overlords. Good luck Jerry!
Posted by: FallaciFan![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at December 3, 2006 8:20 AM
Yes, those of us who desire to protect ourselves and our country are just poor ignorant rubes. I do not advocate requiring Muslims to be marked in someway. However, I do agree with those points outlined above. It is not the American people who need "re-education." It is the Muslims among us both U.S. citizen and resident alien who needs to demonstrate conclusively just where they stand in this struggle. Until such time as that occurs they will be viewed as a fifth column and Quislings.
Posted by: Theseus at December 3, 2006 8:22 AM
The muslims continually insist that it is our ignorance of islam that drives our fear. Sadly, it is our increasing understanding of islam, it's violent roots, bloody history, and warrior leader mohammed that lead many of us to correctly despise the islamic culture and the muslims who seek to spread it.
Hossam Ahmed, a retired Air Force Reserve colonel who occasionally leads prayer meetings for the small Muslim congregation at the Pentagon, agreed. "Ignorance is the number one problem. Education is of the essence."
That fact that we still have muslims in government, the armed forces, and important private sector positions shows that we have much to learn. Hossam should be removed from service as should all muslims in government and military. Send them to internment camps. Our education about islam is still lacking and the presence of the enemy in our midst supports that notion.
39 percent were in favor of requiring Muslims in the United States, including American citizens, to carry special identification.
That is a significant number. Perhaps our knowledge of islam is growing. We will know when we have learned enough when muslims are detained, deported, or executed. Then we will have learned.
I want to know if an individual is a muslim. The knowledge could mean the difference between life and death.
Posted by: mtriviso at December 3, 2006 8:27 AM
Hmm. I, also, did not distrust or worry about Moslems before I started doing some reading after 9/11. But then, to the politically correct, multicultural world, having anything bad to say about a person means that you just don't understand them well enough. By the same token, I am curious if this logic has ever been applied to Moslems who hate Christians and Jews? (I'll not hold my breath)
The simple matter is, when two groups have mutually exclusive goals, there really is only a single outcome -- after years of conflict, one or the other utterly loses. Now, if either group changes their goals, then they can co-exist. This would be the desire for an Islam renaissance. But, I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: Daurnil at December 3, 2006 8:28 AM
The stunt that will not save your life.
The foolishness of moral equivalence makes for fine argument, but is terminal while the bullets are flying.
Like listening to a KGO pinko talk about foreign policy and wondering what planet they are on.
The threat is too serious to countenance a scam artist pulling a cheap trick, losing the opportunity to educate his audience, and passing it off as entertainment.
One must suspect that these "liberals" know what the truth is.
Maybe not.
Posted by: dgene at December 3, 2006 8:30 AM
IGNORANCE SEEN AS KEY PROBLEM
End.
Ironically, for muslims it this is actually the other way around. The more of the truth of islam that people are made aware, the more likely it is that reactions described in the article will be become commonplace.
Up until last November, I had a vague knowledge of islam, but generally thought it was a peaceful (albeit false) religion. By chance, I started reading books and articles written by islamic scholars like Robert Spencer, Serge Trifkovic, Daniel Pipes, Bat Ye'or (an Egyptian Jew who was a victim of islam) and by former muslims like courageous Walid Shoebat (Also former PLO terrorist turned born-again Christian) and Ibn Warriq (an alias, for were he to use his name, he'd be hunted down and killed for apostasy). The aforementioned all effectively debunk the pseudo-apologetics employed by dhimmi hagiographers like Karen Armstrong and deceitful "moderate" muslim groups like CAiR that insist, in spite of what the final word of koran says, that islam is a religion of peace fully compatible with Western notions of freedom, liberty, and human rights.
I am against such knee-jerk reactions suggested in the article, but it is worth pointing out that even if such measures were put into effect, it would still be a far more merciful treatment that many Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists living in muslim majorities have been subjected to for 14 centuries.
That the koran unqualifiedly justifies the actions of obl and tens of thousands of other islamic terrorists is uncontestable; the question is then how we convince muslims to abandon such teachings and embrace freedom, liberty, and respect for all human beings.
I posted this on http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=276 and was banned for being a bigot, if anyone wants to further inform them of the truth, go for it.
at December 3, 2006 8:32 AM
In the unlikely event that anyone involved feels
guilty go here.....
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
...there , you feel better alrady don`t you ?
Posted by: aladdinsane57 at December 3, 2006 8:32 AM
*already
Posted by: aladdinsane57 at December 3, 2006 8:33 AM
Nope, Ignorance is not the problem. The problem is the more informed we are, the more we realize that Islam has at its core a set of barbaric values that we cannot and will not tolerate!
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at December 3, 2006 8:45 AM
americaningermany,
True, but nevertheless, I still enjoy taking advantage of every opportunity to make them uncomfortable.
Last night, I was at my cousin's house and my cousin's best friend and his best friend's girlfriend came over.
I had previously lent her Spencer's "Politically Incorrect Guide to the Islam (and the Crusades)." She had read some of it, but still had a fresh mind untainted of dhimmitude. I was able to tell her some of the real truth of islam.
It was a good experience that does not come up too often.
She is writting a report on the treatment of muslims in airports. She is worried that if she writes what she really thinks that her "hippie" teacher will give her a bad, unfair grade.
I told her to write what she wants and if she receives a lower than deserved grade, then yell to high heaven to anyone that will listen: the dean, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly.
It was fun.
Posted by: senatortombstone at December 3, 2006 8:50 AM
thanks, americaningermany
Great post!
It may or may not get deleted. But you will definitely be called a bigot, LOL.
Most likely she will have all comments subject to moderation, which will at least slow down the manufacturing lies
I think she has my posts invisible or something, because even though I see them when I go to her site, the lack of response to them would indicate that no one else does.
My response should be the first one, did you see it?
Posted by: senatortombstone at December 3, 2006 8:55 AM
Mr Spencer
Your plan is fine in theory. In practise, it requires the continuous monitoring of all Muslims, and then more. It will require an authority that will dwarf the Spanish Inquisition in size and scope.
Is this what we want to be a permanent fixture in the West as a whole? Western civilisation will be irrevocably damaged.
Posted by: DP111 at December 3, 2006 8:58 AM
If, here and there, one finds examples of what might be painted as hysterical reactions, thereby calling into question the perfectly sane and rational fear of Jihad and the instruments of Jihad that threaten to transform, possibly are already transforming, large parts of Western Europe, that is the historic center of the West and of freedom, that hysteria is the result of the frustration and fury of feeling abandoned by those whose duty, in government and in the press, to instruct and to protect us. When one feels that that is not going on, that instead there is a deliberate effort to hide or minimize instances of the world-wide Jihad, then one is more likely to be too upset to think straight.
Here are some of the reasons for the reactions of some of those callers who took the proffered bait of the talk-show host, intent on showing them all up, and in so doing, to make a false point, or a point that misses the point:
1. How much did you know about the war in Biafra as a response by the southern Christians to a "Jihad"?
2. How much do you find out about Muslim behavior in southern Thailand from NPR or from The New Duranty Times or Bandar Beacon?
3.What have you learned about the tenets of Islam over the past five years since the attack on the World Trade Center?
4. What television program has dared even once to discuss Muhammad as uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, to explain his central role in the mental and emotional lives of Muslims, and to further mention, even once, Muhammad as a warrior who too part in 78 battles, 77 of them offensive?
5. What newspaper, magazine or for that matter the professional journals for those in up to their necks in the "Middle Eastern Studies Association:" (google "MESA Nostra" and "Jihad Watch" for more)have discussed, in detail, the life of Muhammad, and included his approval of the decapitation of the 6500-900 bound prisoners of the Banu Qurayza; his pleasure in the murders of Abu Akaf and Asma bint Marwan; his attack on the inoffensive Jewish farmers of the Khay bar Oasis; his marriage to little Aisha; his "treaty" with the Meccans at Hudaibiyya; and so much more.
5. On what television or radio program, in what publication intended for a mass audience, can a confused but worried and angry non-Muslim find out more about Islam, find out that central to the teachings and worldview of Islam, far stronger and fiercer than any other part of the doctrine, is that the world can be divided between Muslims and non-Muslims, Believers and Infidels, and it is the duty of the Believers to enlarge the Dar al-Islam at the expense of Dar al-Harb until the latter has been swallowed up entirely by the latter; that all loyalty is to be owed only to fellow members of the umma al-islamiyya; that unthinking submission, without further, is required to the Will of Allah as expressed in the Qur'an and properly glossed by the Hadith.
6. Where, at Fort Jackson or Fort Benning or Fort Bragg, are the instructors who teach the recruits and even the soldiers going off, again and again, to fight in a war that becomes a puzzlement and that demoralizes them, for they are not told about Islam, or told only about a few of the rituals (how they need to pray five times a day) or what are demurely described as "cultural attitudes" (i.e., how women are treated, how they may not wish you in their homes, how the mosque is ordinarily off-limits to non-Muslims) but are never given anything like the tenets of Islam, nor the attitudes that arise naturally from Islam, which if the soldiers knew about, would be invaluable in preparing them, in steeling them, for the dangers they are about to pass, and are passing, and would have created a cadre of several hundred thousand well-informed people who would comprehend Islam. Instead they are told nothing of value, and certainly not informed about the hostility toward Infidels, the practice of smiling taqiyya that means nothing, the ferocious aggression that Islam encourages (and that can be played out against Infidels, or against one another), the constant lying and manipulating that is a way of life for so many, the hysterical belief in a Past Greatness that is itself a figment of exaggeration, fed by generations of those who are too lazy to examine the actual contributors to what is called "High Islamic Civilization" (roughly 900-1100 A.D.) and what they actually did, and how that stacks up to what went on, has gone on, elsewhere in the world.
No, not the civilians, not the military, not the journalists (those fierce crusading journalists do not know what to do, will not touch, the subject of Islam), not anyone will intelligently, in the mass media or the in government, deal with Islam. Nobody. No, I meant to write -- Almost nobody.
Where in the Western world is there the steady, intelligent dissemination of this knowledge, which the threatened but insufficiently comprehending peoples of the West deserve and need to have if they are to properly defend themselves?
at December 3, 2006 8:59 AM
americaningermany,
The funny thing is that her hippie teacher supposedly read Spencer's book and claims to not have a problem with it. Her problem is that she does some sort of voluntary work with muslims and has hard time imaginging that her muslim friends could feel that way.
I then explained to my cousin's friend's girlfriend that many muslims are ignorant of what the koran says, or nominal muslims who ignore what the koran says, or that they are faking it and secretly hate them.
The girlfriend also has a friend who used to be muslim but is now catholic and who admitted that most muslims she knew were evil.
I explained that muhammad once said that "War is deceit" and that muslims who consider themselves at war with the Christians, Jews, the US, West, and fun are at liberty to tell any expedient lie to further the cause of islam.
I did forget to tell her about the verse forbidding muslims to take Jews and Christians as friends.
She did however ask me to help her with her report, so I will speak with her again soon. If you can think of good points t make, let me know!
Posted by: senatortombstone at December 3, 2006 9:02 AM
Americaningermany,
Here's how it looks on my screen.
3 Comments >>>
1. Senatortombstone said,
2. Tariq Nelson said,
3. Tariq Nelson said,
4. americaningermany said,
Thanks for checking this out for me.
Posted by: senatortombstone at December 3, 2006 9:05 AM
Nope senator, I don't see your comment over there either.
Seems there's some "stifling of dissent" over there. Saw americaningermany's though.
Posted by: HerrMorgenholz at December 3, 2006 9:10 AM
americaningermany,
I have one more huge favor to ask.
Would you cut and paste this post
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014284.php#c312844
on rachel's tavern for me?
Thanks!
at December 3, 2006 9:16 AM
Good morning American and all here,
I just started reading this thread and saw your last comment about how your ex-Muslim friends told you how the Muslims secretly hate us. Thought is very powerful. Since I was a teenager I've understood that there are things we shouldn't say or do, but also things we shouldn't think, because thought has power. It is not unreasonable to feel there is an atmosphere of hate in our own countries, when in fact, there is, but it's not coming from us; it's coming from them.
I know it's infuriating to put up with this crap in our own country or in your case, the country of our allies. I think we need to start imitating the way they covertly try to undermine us. We need to be covert too. We need to smile at them, all the while working behind the scenes to thwart them at every turn and possibly, to eventually eradicate them from our society. If it's a case of us or them, I'm for us and let the chips fall where they may.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 9:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4
How are going to trust muslims who think like this?
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 3, 2006 9:26 AM
Hugh,
David Selbourne is right. Your spelling is atrocious.
instrumens of Jihiad
lilely
asa
Christans
warrrior
Assocation
google
more)have
6500-900
Akaf
Khay bar
centrral
andproperly
comrepehend
agianst
Please use a spell-checker, lest you be found embarrassing the site.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 3, 2006 9:29 AM
WHAT IGNORANCE??
We see, and read about the behavior of Muslims every single day. Do we ignore what is happening in France,Belguim, Britain,the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden? Do we ignore what happened in Spain, Britain, The United States,Russia, darfur, the Sudan,The Phillipines,and a hundred other places? Do we not hear about the suppression of coptic Christians in Egypt,do we not hear about the suppression of Christians in Turkey,and Indonesia where young Christain girls where beheaded, Do we not hear about the waahabists support of Madrasses, and mosques supported by Saudia Arabia throughout America and other coutries that are teaching Jihadism against us infidels?
There are very few countries untouched by the militancy of the "mythical religion of peace" that Islam is so falsely supposed to be.
We should not be compared to Naziss' Mr.Klein!
Posted by: Mackie at December 3, 2006 9:29 AM
And in Canada, we get pro-Palestinian rallies. Talk about ignorance !
Toronto Sun, December 3, 2006
Feds' Mideast stand ripped
Pro-Palestinian rally wants 'objective' view
By BRODIE FENLON, TORONTO SUN
Pro-Palestine supporters staged a rally outside of the Israeli consulate on Bloor St. W. yesterday to end Ottawa’s “blind support” for Israel.
Newly anointed Liberal leader Stephane Dion must work to restore Canada's "moral authority" on the Middle East by demanding a reversal of Ottawa's "blind support" for Israel, say Palestinian supporters.
"We have to keep the issue of the occupation and the suffering of the Palestinian people under the occupation up front," said Khaled Mouammar, national president of the Canadian Arab Federation, one of about 100 protesters who gathered outside Toronto's Israeli consulate yesterday for a peaceful rally.
"I'm hopeful the new leader can take Canada back to where we used to be: A more objective player in the Middle East," said Mouammar, adding that Prime Minister Stephen Harper "has wasted that moral authority."
PALESTINIAN FLAGS
With red armbands, Palestinian flags and anti-Zionist placards, the crowd braved fierce winds outside 180 Bloor St. W. to denounce Israel's military operations in the occupied territories and Canada's refusal to recognize the Hamas-led Palestinian government.
"We want Canada to recognize Israel for what it is: A racist, apartheid state similar to South Africa," said Hazem Jamjoum, one of the protest organizers. "Under Harper, we have a stated policy of blind support for Israel."
Suzanne Weiss, a Jew whose mother died in the Auschwitz death camp during the Second World War, said it is not anti-Semitic to oppose Israel's "apartheid policies."
"Just as the Nazis struck out at the Jewish people," she said, "so Israel and its allies strike out against the Palestinians."
Brian Hopkins, a semi-retired accountant from Oakville, said he attended yesterday's rally because he's concerned about peace and human rights violations in the Middle East.
"What's happening in Gaza is a sorrowful story and there doesn't seem to be a way out," he said. "A lot of people are growing up in dire conditions ... Many are children and they didn't choose where they were born."
Israel and the Palestinians agreed to a ceasefire last Sunday to end a five-month Israeli military offensive in the Gaza Strip and the firing of rockets by Palestinians into Israel.
Those Palestinian children likely didn't choose to be brainwashed to become suicide bombers either.
Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at December 3, 2006 9:31 AM
Hi American,
Yes, I think a lot about the resistance fighters in Europe during WWII. They had to live with the Nazis but knew how to undermine them. We need to give this some thought and get to work on it.
The other day I was driving with a client in a beautiful suburban neighborhood and these two chicks in the hefty bags came walking up the street. Everything was covered but their faces and hands. I remember thinking to myself, how out of place is that? And I also remember thinking, how in my face is that!! I don't think it is too much to ask to follow the traditions and customs of my own country without apologizing, in fact, I'm getting down right militant about it.
I've been wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, even though it's a bit early, but heck, the Christmas music started playing around here on the local radio stations on November 13th. Anyway, I've decided that if anyone gives me the "I'm offended" speech after I wish them a Merry Christmas, then I will say, "Oh, I'm sorry. How about fuck you?" I mean, if they are going to be offended, they should be realy offended, right? Funny though, everyone I wish it to has said it back to me, with a noticable change in their demeanor, for the better.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 9:41 AM
"Please use a spell-checker, lest you be found embarrassing the site."
Posted by: Concerned Citizen
Concerned Citizen - You're joking, right?
Posted by: Josephine at December 3, 2006 9:55 AM
Thanks for the effort americaningermany, but your post did not appear on rhachel's tavern.
oh well.
Posted by: senatortombstone at December 3, 2006 10:00 AM
;)
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 3, 2006 10:01 AM
Good one!
That reminds me. I have The Carpenters Christmas CD which I love and on it is a song called "Little Altar Boy". It's very moving and very haunting. About two years ago I called one of our radio stations and asked a famous night host to play it and we had an interesting exchange. I asked him to play it and I told him about it, how it was haunting, and he said, yes he knew that song and that it was. He said he'd see what he could do but he sounded kind of sad. The next song he played was "Merry Christmas Darling" and I knew, he'd wanted to play it, but couldn't. He was giving me a message and I got it.
Our radio stations may be monitored and sensored but my mouth isn't. I was brought up to be polite and to consider other peoples feelings. But I was also brought up to be a patriot, and there is a difference between hurting someone's feelings just to be a bitch and fighting a foe that wants to destroy you. The Muslims try to make it the same thing, but it's not, and I will never believe it is again.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 10:04 AM
Americans' and Westerners' ignorance of Islam is truly appalling. For instance, many, including our fearless leader "Little Boy Bush," persist in the know-nothing conceit that Islam is a "Religion of Peace."
Given the events of the last few years, to say nothing of the last 1400 years, the extent of this ignorance about Islam is discouraging.
Posted by: BunrattyBill at December 3, 2006 10:07 AM
Actually right after Septmeber 11, the antipathy towards Muslims in the US was much less. I remember Muslim women being escorted by non Muslim Americans etc to prevent any harrasment etc. I also remember a Muslim cleric leading prayers at the National Catherdral. The reason attitudes have hardened is that many Americans have watched in disbelief as organizations like CAIR made it their mission to complain about their lot in the US rather than vociferously condemn the savages who perpetrated this atrocity. The relative silence and denial of Muslims in general over the problems of the jihadi element in their midst has also left Americans extremely disillusioned (rightly or wrongly) about the allegiance of the Muslim population. Again you see that the problem is claimed to be "educational". A complete denial of reality. I found the results of Mr Klein's hoax extremely disturbing but I can hardly say I was surprised by it.
at December 3, 2006 10:13 AM
Call me overly sensitive, but when anyone calls me ignorant ..them is fighting words!
Posted by: TheOmegaMan at December 3, 2006 10:18 AM
Greetings, DP111
You posted:
"Mr Spencer
Your plan is fine in theory. In practise, it requires the continuous monitoring of all Muslims, and then more. It will require an authority that will dwarf the Spanish Inquisition in size and scope.
Is this what we want to be a permanent fixture in the West as a whole? Western civilisation will be irrevocably damaged."
I think Mr. Spencer is asking Muslims to self-monitor.
If they took the initiative to start such programs on their own, it would be a huge gesture of goodwill. Of course, someone would have to check on their self-monitoring process, but I think that could be done without forming a new, Draconian bureaucracy.
I agree that it's important not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", - meaning not letting our self-protective zeal turn us into something that resembles what we're fighting against.
Posted by: freedomschool at December 3, 2006 10:24 AM
Further requirements:
5. Stop immigration of all Muslims. Start immediate immigration of all Christians from the Middle East who speak Middle Eastern languages.
6. Hire these Christians in public schools and colleges. Divide Americans into 3 groups...one group learns Arabic, one learns Farsi (Persian) and one learns Urdu? (what is spoken in Pakistan and by the Taliban)and require all Americans to learn one of these languages.
7. Use Christian...not Muslim...translators in the military and government. Offer the positions to Christians even if they do know know English and give them a crash course in English. No more Muslim translators anywhere.
8. Create a Manhattan/Space Program challenge and end all import of terrorist and other foreign oil as soon as possible. Set a date and get the whole country and all our brilliant scientific minds on this....energy independence for the U.S. in 10 years! (instead of going to the moon). Then when we have the technology, export it to every country that buys oil from Muslim countries. Iceland got free of foreign energy imports. We can too. It will be painful..so what.
9. To ensure we have Middle Eastern *Christians* immigrating and teaching the classes have them make a video saying the reverse of what Muslims say: There is no god [Muslim god's name] and [name of the found of Islam] is not a prophet.
See other ideas at the coalition formed here:
http://the-910-group.blogspot.com/2006/11/coalition-to-preserve-civilization.html
Posted by: Abby at December 3, 2006 10:25 AM
Yes it makes me angry when I hear that my fellow Americans have been driven to the point of discussing tattooing a few among us. After 9-11 they should have been given a size 12 in the butt, in the general direction of mecca. They are chopping of school girls heads for a ramadam treat and we are pretending to discuss tattoos. What is wrong with that picture, what kind of monsters would play those kinds of games? Maybe we should debate tattooing him with a big fat X right between his eyes, that way our kids could spot him on the street before he hurts any of them.
freedomschool,
Could we set up that self monitoring thingy in your neighborhood first?
at December 3, 2006 10:33 AM
It goes like this:
Little altar boy,
I wonder,
could you pray for me?
Little altar boy,
for I have gone astray,
What must I do,
to be holy like you?
Little Altar boy,
oh let me hear you pray.
Little Altar boy,
I wonder,
could you ask Our Lord,
Ask him altar boy,
to take my sins away,
What must I do,
to be holy like you?
Little altar boy,
please let me hear you pray.
Lift up your voice,
and say a prayer above,
Help me rejoice,
and fill that prayer with love.
Now I know my life,
has been all wrong.
Lift up your voice,
and help a sinner be strong.
Little altar boy,
I wonder,
could you pray for me?
Could you tell Our Lord,
I'm gonna change my way today,
What must I do,
to be holy like you,
Little altar boy, oh let me hear you pray.
Little altar please let me hear you pray.
You have to hear it though, it will blow you away, the way Karen Carpenter sings it.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 10:33 AM
"There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and some people think they are all terrorists."
They are all potential terrorists. There is a slight difference, although not much. In most parts of the South every skunk is considered to be a rabies carrier until known otherwise. Once during a rabies outbreak in Secureundisclosedlocation County, three dead skunks were submitted to the the state for testing; every one had rabies.
If the comparison of Muslims to skunks offends any one here, that's just tough.
Posted by: Pelayo at December 3, 2006 10:33 AM
Pelayo - good point. I have long compared Muslims to colon polyps - benign until they are not, until they turn into a cancer (aka "Sudden Jihad Syndrome") that kills you in a most relentless and unpleasant manner.
The treatment of polyps is to remove them immediately - not just observe them or cross one's fingers and hope for the best.
Posted by: BunrattyBill at December 3, 2006 10:39 AM
People are outraged about this and rightly so; however, I believe there is a Muslim equivalent that visually identifies Christians and Jews by clothing.
The problem is not education. After 9-11 people are more educated about Islam and its imperialist agenda to occupy the world and to replace all non-Muslim governments, cultures and religions with Islam.
We recognize the danger of Islam ideology, and that the ideology in incompatible with Western ideology. Islam does not accept equal diversity.
Islam does not even accept the rule of law...look at Muslim countries that have Islamic governments. They claim that implementation of Islamic law brings peace...so why is there rampant rape, murder, kidnappings, violence in Muslim countries?
We don't need this here. The Muslims need to either do what Robert said concerning reeducation of ***Muslims*** or they need to leave since we will not accept Islam.
Posted by: Abby at December 3, 2006 10:41 AM
Greetings, tgusa
You posted:
"They are chopping of school girls heads for a ramadam treat and we are pretending to discuss tattoos."
I know. That makes our civilization superior. Let's keep it that way.
WE can't set up a self-monitoring thingy for them. They have to do it themselves. If they don't start soon they have no one but themselves to blame for our attitude toward them.
Posted by: freedomschool at December 3, 2006 10:44 AM
The Goths are at the gates and all we can do is argue amongst ourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(410)
Posted by: Foehammer at December 3, 2006 10:50 AM
Tgusa & Freedomschool,
There is absolutely no motivation for Muslims to self monitor. Their superiority complex will be their downfall.
Abby - AWESOME, AWESOME WEBSITE!!!
Here are a few goodies I gleaned and we need to listen because the seeds of vigilance and our fighting spirit run deep within us:
This is primarily an information war, fought via the television screens and computer networks across the entire globe. The enemy is very adept at it, and has a head start. But the Islamists lack our major advantages: originality, flexibility, technical innovation, and a tradition of free enquiry. These are the skills we will use to build our networks and destroy theirs.
Yes, we are the new fighter class, or following an analytical model, a set. The fighters who compose this set are men and women who have already passed through the initial crucible of life to arrive in the company of fighters whose roots extend down deep, past the arid dust of ideologies. Such fighters have the system within themselves to combat evil.
at December 3, 2006 10:51 AM
Pelayo,
Interesting analogy. Skunks may seem to be sweet creatures but they can sure make your life a living hell.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 10:54 AM
Who cares about Muslims? It is Islam that is the problem.
Given the person of Muhammad who started this death cult, the fact that he is the "perfect man" to be emulated, and the history of Islam which is what actual Muslims did and do when following Muhammad's teachings, the only conclusion one can come to is that Islam MUST BE BANNED in the West (but let us start in the US) until such time as Islam fully reciprocates our tolerance and religious freedom.
Which means never. It is not up to us to help Muslims reform Islam. Eject it from our body politic; we under no obligation to allow a nihilistic ideology of death and destruction to exist here.
Let Muslims work out their own reformation, and when they become human beings, we can let them rejoin the human race.
By the way, if you have not already done so, you owe it to yourself to read Ali Sina who is (perhaps) the leading ex-Muslim on the net. Check out his writings at
and expand out from there, both the old and the new site.
PS: did you all read Serge Trifkovic in the recent FrontPage forum with Bat Ye'or, Thomas Haidon and Mustafa Aykol? He finally blew up at the convoluted, inane apologetics of Haidon and Aykol and called Islam a "collective psychosis." This is precisely Ali Sina's core thesis.
Robert's thesis - "Islam is exactly what it says it is, and here is what is says." is complementary to Sina.
Ethelred - questioningislam@yahoo.com
Posted by: Ethelred at December 3, 2006 10:56 AM
I spoke too soon, the messages did post!
Thanks for delivering truth to Rhachel's tavern, americaningermany and other jihadwatchers.
As much as I preacher to the choir, I enjoy even more pulling willingly ignorants' heads out of the sand!
The people here need the truth!
http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=276
at December 3, 2006 10:57 AM
American,
Islam is Satanically influenced on the metaphysical level. That's why NOTHING is allowed for our well being or even innocent pleasure. The devil hates our guts and he hates God even more, so if he destroys us in a particularly awful way he kills two birds with one stone, so to speak; he destroys us and hurts God who loves us. Anyone who says this is not a spiritual battle does not know what they are talking about.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 10:58 AM
freedomschool,
I agree, in my youth, the decades after WWII, American neighborhoods were filled with veterans of that war. We all heard the stories, as a matter of fact, we had a former German soldier in my neighborhood who had immigrated here after the war. He told us all kinds of stories that as you can imagine captured a group of young boys attention. He was very proud of his honorable service but what Hitler had done to his country left him ashamed and an alcoholic. There are few people in my life that I have felt more sorry for, if any, than that man. So what is the lesson of this? If good men stand by and let evil prevail, no matter what they do, no matter how honorable they behave, it will destroy them.
Isabellathecrusader,
“After 9-11 they should have been given a size 12 in the butt, in the general direction of mecca”.
That’s my viewpoint and I’m sticking to it.
at December 3, 2006 11:06 AM
Islam is not going to reform, except in a negative direction. In fact, as has been said elsewhere, an Islamic reformation is currently underway. But this reformation consists of "getting back to basics"; that is, getting closer to the literal text of the Koran and the sayings and doings of Muhammad--in other words, revival of the perpetual war against non-Muslim humanity.
At present, we cannot begin to protect ourselves legally from this onslaught, because religious freedom is protected under the Constitution. That is the crux of the problem, as I see it.
Therefore, we must press for nothing less than an amendment to the Constitution to the effect:
1. That while the ideology called Islam carries the trappings of religion, and in some foreign countries and locales is considered to be a religion, within the territories of the United States is not recognized as a religion.
2. That Islam is recognized instead as a violent, intolerant, supremacist political ideology totally incompatible with every fundamental tenet of the Constitution, including consent of the governed, equal protection under the law, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of conscience--the entire Bill of Rights.
3. That Islam is recognized, by its own immutable doctrines laid out in the Koran and the way of Muhammad, to be in a perpetual state of war against this Constitution and the people protected thereunder.
4. That no person bearing or advocating this ideology shall be admitted as a permanent citizen or temporary resident of this country or its territories. Those who enter on false pretenses shall be deported without delay.
5. That no person bearing or advocating this ideology shall be permitted to hold public political office in this country or its territories, at any level of goverment.
6. That no person bearing or advocating this ideology shall be permitted to serve in the armed forces, police, immigration, border control, or other security services of this nation.
7. That the President, Congress, and the Courts are required and empowered to resist and confront Islamic encroachment on our freedoms at home and our interests abroad by every means, including force when necessary, consistent with the checks and balances defined in other articles of the Constitution.
Without such an amendment to the Constitution, we will be unable to construct and uphold workable laws to defend ourselves. Any law, regulation, or municipal ordinance, no matter how innocuous, that in any way restricts Muslim sedition will be challenged in court on religious grounds. And, with the copious oil money at their disposal, the Muslims have deep pockets with which to pursue endless court challenges and outright legal attacks. Even when they ultimately fail to win a particular case, they can create paralysis and drain resources better used in productive endeavors.
Posted by: Stendec
at December 3, 2006 11:07 AM
True. Not all Muslims are jihadists. Experts estimate they make up "only" 10-15% of the Muslim population worldwide. Doesn't that make the jihadists larger than all the armies in the world combined by a factor of ten? Must be some truth to this otherwise how would it be possible to simultaneously conduct terror operations in Palestine, Lebanon, Indonesia,Thailand,Egypt, Eurabia, et al.
Lack of trust? Maybe. Fear? you bet. I am begining to connect the dots, plot the trajectory and it is looking more and more as if the jihadists are picking-up rigth where they left-off on September 11, 1683.
ohara
Posted by: OHara at December 3, 2006 11:07 AM
Call me a bigot. Call me a rascist (LOL) or paranoid or whatever you want. My children are not going to be sacrificed on the semen and blood stained altar of Islamic wishful thinking.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 11:08 AM
IGNORANT!!? Oh that's nothing... give it a little more time, a few more security measures in response to some horrific acts against innocents that just happen to be committed by angry "militant" Muslims... then you'll be guilty of APARTHEID like we are in Israel! Now that's big time...
at December 3, 2006 11:09 AM
Abby posted:
"8. Create a Manhattan/Space Program challenge and end all import of terrorist and other foreign oil as soon as possible. Set a date and get the whole country and all our brilliant scientific minds on this....energy independence for the U.S. in 10 years! (instead of going to the moon). Then when we have the technology, export it to every country that buys oil from Muslim countries. Iceland got free of foreign energy imports. We can too. It will be painful..so what."
Now that's an idea! And both the American Right and Left can get behind it. It's patriotic, and it's environmental. What's not to love?
If the next administration, be it Dem or Rep, has fewer oil-money people in it, this might actually happen.
Posted by: freedomschool at December 3, 2006 11:10 AM
Tgusa,
Or a size 13, or a size 14. I'm with ya!
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 11:10 AM
A poll carried out by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an advocacy group, found that for one in three Americans, the word Islam triggers negative connotations such as "war," "hatred" and "terrorist."
Therein lies the problem. Two thirds are totally clueless about Islam. No wonder the enemy is winning.
As for Muslim claims that there is a great deal of ignorance about Islam I agree. Muslims are ignorant when they claim only those Muslims who misunderstand Islam are jihadists and demand death for apostates.
Ignorance of Islam by infidels is also a problem. They need to visit sites like this one to see what it is all about. Maybe then people will see what the danger really is all about.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 11:11 AM
Stendec,
Exactly!
Protect ourselves by declaring Islam a "religio non-grata", close the mosques, and give Muslims here a choice, leave Islam or leave us.
Islam must be pushed out of the West and contained within current Islamic lands. They MUST sell their oil; an oil field must be pumped or it dies.
Let them procreate as much as they wish, IN ISLAMIC LANDS and let it be their problem.
If they attack us, the response must be 100 or 1000 times stronger. Force is the only thing they understand.
Ethelred
Posted by: Ethelred at December 3, 2006 11:13 AM
American,
I believe Allah is Satan too. You will know them by their fruits. What sense does it make for God to create life and then demand in a "holy" book that it be destroyed? It is illogical. It is counter productive, wasteful of resources and just plain dumb. And unfortunately, if you believe what the Bible says and read the last chapter, it chillingly parallels what we are going through right now. I want Jesus to come back but, honey, I really don't want to go through what is supposed to happen before He does! However, if Islam is to usher in the Anti-Christ of the Bible most scholars agree that it will only last 3 1/2 years. So much for the worldwide Caliphate.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 11:17 AM
"Not all Muslims are jihadists. Experts estimate they make up "only" 10-15% of the Muslim population worldwide."
--from a posting above
What is a "Jihadist"? Someone who actively plots? Someone who gives money to support those who actively plot? Someone who gives monoey to build mosques to attract converts from the psychically marginal in the West who are often the most fanatical of Believrs, far outdoing in their new-found faith many of those who may have been born into it? Someone who works to prevent intelligent and justified security measures from being taken by Infidels just because those measures inconvenience him, or he does not want anthing being done that might draw undue attention to Islam, much less critical scrutiny of the contents of the belief-system?
And who are these "experts"? What is an "expert" on Islam and how do such "experts" arrive at their estimates?
It's all pulled from the air, the thin air.
Not to be believed, and certainly not to be used as the basis for any policy.
Posted by: Hugh at December 3, 2006 11:21 AM
Tagrafiti,
You're right. That's why people need to learn to protect themselves NOW. If we wait, how long before guns are registered or outlawed and then you are at the mercy of any sword wielding or rocket launching jihadist who happens to have gatherings in the townhouse next to yours and doesn't want you barbequing pork ribs on your deck because not only is he offended but he's willing to slice up your daughter to prove it to you? In every story I've read about psycho Islamic crimes committed in the US, the neighbors always say, " Oh, but he was such a nice boy." I no longer trust any of them.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 11:26 AM
Okay you guys, this is a little OT but I'm listening to Christmas music as I type and I had to bring this back for your listening pleasure. Sometimes I crack myself up.
(To the tune of, "Walking through a winter wonderland.)
Islamic Wonderland
Where's his head,
See it missing,
By the road,
The blood is glistening,
A horrible sight,
We're shell-shocked tonight,
Walking through Islamic Wonderland.
Where's your bomb?
It's on my waistband.
What's your job?
I die for Islam.
I've got guns and knives,
So run for your lives,
Livin' in Islamic Wonderland.
In the US we'll practice Taqqiyah,
We'll tell you we love our neighbor well,
Then when we've enough to take you over,
We'll slice you up and send you off to hell.
Later on, in the fire,
Your kids and house,
Will expire,
A beautiful sight,
We're happy tonight,
Killin' in Islamic Wonderland,
Killin' in Islamic Wonderland,
Killin' in Islamic Wonderland...
at December 3, 2006 11:30 AM
Concerned Citizen...........your quote
"Hugh,
David Selbourne is right. Your spelling is atrocious."
I ran Hugh's comment thru SpellCheck (I'm a former NASA technical editor)and none of those misspellings came up. What gives with your computer? Or eyes?
at December 3, 2006 11:31 AM
Concerned,
I did see the other typos that you point out in Hugh's latest(anthing) but you missed"psychically". What's up with Hugh? :)
Regards,
Posted by: scarab at December 3, 2006 11:37 AM
He partially edited the first post.
Notice he still has Akaf and 6500.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 3, 2006 11:39 AM
Concerned hall monitor,
So maybe he’s been up all night? Nobody cares for a tattletale. We can read/spell but thanks for your vigilance never the less.
at December 3, 2006 11:40 AM
BTW Concerned,
My post showed up with incorrect spacing. However, it was correct when I typed my comment.
Regards,
Posted by: scarab at December 3, 2006 11:41 AM
I think that I've seen a request for proposal of engineering for large internment camps. The camps were to be located in the U.S.
Posted by: credit man at December 3, 2006 11:42 AM
@Hugh: "What is a "Jihadist"?"
To me, a practical definition of a jihadist is "any person who accepts as true verse 33:21 of the Koran."
That is, a jihadist is any person who believes that Mohammed is uswa hasana al-insan al-kamil--the perfect model of human conduct for all time.
If that definition includes every Muslim, or most Muslims, then so be it.
Anyone who believes that decapitating 600 bound prisoners, raping women after murdering their husbands, marrying 6-year olds (and raping then at age 9), lying about his aggressive intentions, deceptively making and then breaking treaties in order to conquer others, raiding caravans, demanding 20% of the loot captured from conquered infidels, and assassinating poets and other "enemies," is the example of the perfect pattern of human behavior--that person is a jihadist.
at December 3, 2006 11:42 AM
It's funny, but nobody has ever called me a racist to my face and I'm probably the loudest anti-Islamist around. I wonder how that could be?
(Lots of surprising reasons, but I'll keep the mask on for a few more years.)
The media stunts are only going to get trickier, more common and more vulgar, folks. Don't give in to them.
Islam is your enemy, my enemy and especially the enemy of Muslims -- true irony there. Any more questions?
at December 3, 2006 11:49 AM
tgusa,
I was originally making an allusion to the Selbourne article, and lampooning those who don't actually read his posts for content.
However, now I am quite jealous of the ability to retrospectively edit one's own post.
Signed,
Concerned Hall Monitor
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at December 3, 2006 11:53 AM
Off topic:
Ayatollah issues fatwa calling for two journalists in Azerbaijan to be killed
Posted by: ummahnewslinks at December 3, 2006 11:53 AM
The reason the West distrusts Muslims is that we can observe their behavior change, as they become more powerful within societies throughout the world. In small numbers they claim victimhood (1%-US), in larger numbers, they feel emboldened to freely spout hate speech (3%-England), then comes organized violent resistance (10%-France), then comes political assassination and attempts to overthrow democratically elected governments (Lebanon), then comes persecution of religious minorities (Turkey), then comes threatening to wipe opposing religions off of the face of the earth (Iran).
The pointy end of the spear may only consist of 15% of the population, but a very large percentage is really good at serving in support roles. Anyone who prays to Mohammed is absolutely deserving of distrust, because Mohammed has established a belief system that snuffs out all others.
Standec; Amen
at December 3, 2006 11:57 AM
Isabellathecrusader - Great song!
Posted by: Josephine at December 3, 2006 12:00 PM
Of course there is Islamiphobia in the West ! Do they think we are stupid? we have EYES and we have EARS ( which is more than we can say for many living under Sharia )we see and read what the Lovely relig.., i mean CULT of Islam has in store for us! it their loyalty to Islam comes before Family and Country. and Death and subjugation are the order of the day.
Wtch this video. http://memritv.org/ #1328
exerpt:
Preident Tom(Ahmadinejad);
"" I have a piece of advice for some of the superpowers. I think it is high time the leaders of America and England listened carefully.
Today, you have reached the END OF THE ROAD - both in our region and all over the world. This method of yours – your aggressive language, your language of selfishness, of the degradation and the coercion of the peoples - has come to an end. I would like to tell you that today, YOUR COLLAPSE and the PROCESS oF DISINTIGRATION of your SATANIC RULE have begun ""
Now i just want to know how this can NOT be considered a Declaration of WAR!?
There was a time when talk like this was enough to get yourself into big trouble.
I am shocked this is not on the front page of every paper, actually i'm not.
Posted by: DUGGY at December 3, 2006 12:02 PM
Concerned Citizen,
Ok, my miskate. Apology accepted?
Signed,
Smellborn.
at December 3, 2006 12:03 PM
Also re: my last post
This retoric has been increasing in tone lately. Iran has been saying that Americas power is waning and that measures to destroy her have been implimented . i just wonder why it is not being taken seriously ? I remember reading somewhere Amhadinejad
saying something along the lines of there being 18 or so strategig sites throughout Amaerica and the West , that if Taken out will detroy the Wests Economy and ability to wage war or even defend itself. or something along those lines.
Are we just going to wait till they do it?
Posted by: DUGGY at December 3, 2006 12:10 PM
Americaningermany, I think Jihadwatcher was referring to the very first comment:
http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=276#comment-11985
Typical dhimmi dhribble.
And in case you're wondering, I can no longer see my comments posted, but all of yours (including the one you cut and pasted for me) are still there.
Thanks!
Posted by: senatortombstone at December 3, 2006 12:13 PM
Here they are protesting for civil rights.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20857109-2703,00.html
The money quote…
“Hardline Pakistani religious leaders have labeled the reforms "un-Islamic, immoral and unconstitutional" and evidence of "Western values infiltrating society".
Fear and distrust? Naw.
at December 3, 2006 12:21 PM
there is no ingornance of islam only atrocities, vileness and evil commmited by muslims across the world.
muslims murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11.
muslims murdered 52 Brits on 7/7
muslims murdered 201 Spaniards on 3/11
muslims murdered 785 Israelis in the last six years.
muslims murdered 2 million plus Christians in Sudan.
muslims murdered a million plus Africans in Darfur
muslims raped millions of women and children in Darfur and Sudan.
muslims murdered 186 children and 158 adults, a total of 354 in Belsan.
muslims have murdered and harmed tens of millions of innocents in the last two decades.
how many muslims have you seen marching and protesting in the streets over the violence and atrocities commited by their fellow muslims????
maybe all of the 1.3 billion muslims are not terrorists, but the vast majority of terrorists across the world are muslim..............
until the so called moderate and peaceful muslims take up arms and eradicate the radicals and radicalism in islam, muslims and islam will never be trusted or respected...............
this will never happen for islam and its vile and evil followers intend on ocnquering the world and they will do everything possbile including lying, decit and terrorism to gain their ends.....
do not be fooled by the truthful sounding muslim liar.........
God bless America, Israel, Australia, Canada and our other Allies and our Fighting Forces across the world and keep us Free.
The Texican.
God, Family, America and Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
at December 3, 2006 12:29 PM
I have posted this numerous times because Bukhari explains jihad perfectly.
'Who' is a jihadist is made clear in the last two sentences.
Book of Jihad, on page 580 of Maktba Dar-us-Salam’s publication of Sahih Al-Bukhari: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite.”
Hypocrites dont go to Allahs heaven. A HUGH concern to muslims.
I dont believe Islam can be reformed as long as Allah is believed to be God, and his 'uncreated and immutable' book the Quran, to be his undisputed word. The problem with Islamic thinking is that they try to function in a world of 'absolutes'. You will 'absolutely' follow the directions given to you by Allah and his Prophet 'absolutely'. The penalty for 'not' doing that is severe bodilly punishment, up to, and including death, usually by some grusome method.
Everyone is sane untill they are not. 'Good' muslims are 'good' muslims, untill they are 'bad' muslims, which means they are really 'good' muslims. Confusing huh.
The problem is, just which muslims, individuals or groups, will challange the absolute word of Allah, when they know the penalty for doing so is Hell?
Reformers face the double edged sword of the wrath of Allah and the wrath of their brothers. Which muslim is big enough to take on Allah, let him step forward...
at December 3, 2006 12:36 PM
Ah yes, "ignorance" of Islam leads to prejudice? How laughable. Actually, I suspect that the radio host, Klein, is the one who is ignorant.
I've read many times that here in Canada, many Muslims want the Canadian government to identify Muslims (create a registry) -- this is so that Muslims can then enact their own, separate laws (ie., Sharia) to which only Muslims would be bound by, yet have the State enforce (that's prosecute) any violators of said Sharia law. Thus, Muslims would voluntarily list themselves with the Canadian government, and then be governed by Sharia (not Canadian) law. That's the project. But the first step is to have Muslims register...(maybe not such a bad idea? Hey, it's what any number of Muslims want...so, why not?)
Posted by: J.S. at December 3, 2006 12:41 PM
" They want us to ignore their behaviour and pass it off as "a few individuals" and go along our daily business with blinders on.
"
Precisely! I have had numerous debates with friends over that exact point. Alost everyone i know thinks that there is no way they can Hurt us over here, and that I am an Alarmist etc...
Even After i show them Retoric like this :
http://memritv.org/ #1328 , and numerous Jihadwatch articles
They still don't believe .
Posted by: DUGGY
at December 3, 2006 12:41 PM
A friend of mine just came back from a trip to several countries in Asia (including Thailand).
He said that his conversations with locals indicated that there is a rising tide of Islamic fundamentalism throughout the region, and that the average nonmuslim is very concerned.
Posted by: treehugger at December 3, 2006 12:47 PM
Speaking of spell check, and kidding Hugh about his typos....the best I have found is Firefox. It has a spell checker built in and isn't as likely to become infected as IE.
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/
at December 3, 2006 12:51 PM
Yeah Firefox rules: http://getfirefox.eliasalucard.com/
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 3, 2006 12:56 PM
I'll admit that I've been distrustful and fearful of Muslims before 9/11. I think the first time I began to be consciously aware of my dislike of them was when I was about 8 or 9 years old and I read the "Arabian Nights." Very alien culture.
It's not strange at all that Americans have fear and hatred of Muslims. We are at war with Islam. Mars, the god of war, and the planet in our solar system is accompanied by two moons called "Deimos" and "Phobos."
"Hatred" and "Fear."
Posted by: atheling
at December 3, 2006 1:25 PM
In U.S., fear and distrust of Muslims runs deep
The fear and distrust will grow even greater as ignorance re the belief-system gives way to full and deep knowledge of the belief-system.
Posted by: Frank at December 3, 2006 1:28 PM
Muslims are practicing Ameri-Phobia- whining about supposed ill treatment and racism- they're afraid of Americans and counter the only way they know how, by crying foul.
Excellent thread Robert- the Muslims know how they can make amends with America, but htey refuse, so let them instead reap what they sow. Time to start ignoring the whining comming from people who won't lift a finger to help in the war on terror. http://sacredscoop.com
Posted by: CottShop at December 3, 2006 1:38 PM
Is it just me or is that high pitched whine coming out of the muslim world deafening?
Posted by: Ronin at December 3, 2006 1:51 PM
Well considering how much the arab and muslim world hates America, why should Americans trust them?
Posted by: EliasAlucard at December 3, 2006 1:56 PM
CAIR and their appologist think we are overly sensitive to muslims? l guess Americans overreacted after 9-11, how many muslims were shot, killed, raped, beat up? oh but they got mean stares.. well l guess that counts at being overly sensitive..
everytime muslims do bad things, muslims and their appologists say in the media, that they are so fearful of this so called muslim backlash? well where is it? l think they are fearful of a backlash, because in their cesspool countries,when there is a backlash, head roll! l mean literally roll! & buildings burn down. well l know patience is running real low, and if anything should happen, l would not be surprised if the government bring out the police to protect muslims, becuase the non-elites will run out of patience.
at December 3, 2006 1:57 PM
Foehammer:
"It's funny, .......I'm probably the loudest anti-Islamist around."
Want to arm wrestle for that title?
at December 3, 2006 2:00 PM
CottShop,
Regarding your link, there seems to be some seriously flawed thinking in Oakland.
http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/oakland-ebonics.html
http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_328214757.html
Yep, there they are again.
at December 3, 2006 2:00 PM
Maybe the first thing on the agenda towards eradicating Islam would be to rremove CAIR from American soil. How could we help Andrew Whitehead's group over at Anti-CAIR? We need to strengthen our position and spread the word that CAIR is out to make Sharia #1 in America and destroy our Constitution. If the average American really understood this the howling would be unending.
Any ideas?
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 2:17 PM
The Goths are at the gates and all we can do is argue amongst ourselves Foe HammerWhile I agree with your sentiment, using the Goths and Vandals as an example is piss poor and inaccurate. These Germanic Tribes were Christians, and had suffered under Roman exclusion and persecution.. they did indeed sack Rome, but that is all they did, they plundered and left, unlike the Romans (e'en the Christian Romans) who subdued peoples by use of mass extermination polcies, including beheadings (e.g. the example on Trajans column when he invaded and massacred Dacia, whose silver and wealth he coveted.
I find parallels in the spread of the Islamic Empire and the Roman Empire. I also find parallels in the use of the sword to spread both Christianity and Islam.. and the bloody, and emotionally charged environment as various Christian sects fought for supremacy.
Take the Pilgrims that fled to Massachussetts, in reality they were seeking the freedom to practise their intolerant version of Christianity..Calvinists who have left a lasting legacy and stain on the American psyche.
Not much difference between the Calvinist (regardless of denomination) and the Muslim, the only thing that restrains the Calvinist (and the hardline Papist) is the common sense, laws of men and the secular society in which they have to operate..a secular society which they wish to bury and replace with their own very muslim like form of theocracy. And those of the Dominionist persuasion (and many are without knowing it) would even stone apostates, adulterers, juvenile delingents, disobedient women, gays and less than faithful Christians..per the Mosaic Laws.
Dominionism is not a religion, it is a religious ideology that sweeps across religions and sects.
Posted by: Nariz at December 3, 2006 2:23 PM
Judaism has the injunction to "remember you were aliens in Egypt" by which it makes clear to its' practitioners they must abide by the moral code of the Ten Commandments both with respect to Jews and non-Jews. Christianity has the story of the Good Samaritan which again makes clear that the moral code regulating conduct is not solely applicable to its' intra-religious relationships.
By contrast, Muhammad by his acts and words revoked the Ten Commandments as an absolute norm on which the prior religions were based. These commandments now applied only to muslims, the "kufr's" belongings, wife, and life were fair game for Muhammad and his followers. Even if you dropped all the explicitly jihad theology, the rest of the Hadith, Quran and Shariah is so filled with this double standard that dehumanizes the "kufr",that the persecution of the "kufr" would likely happen anyway if all those dehumanizing things weren't trashed as well.
So a muslim by definition believes in Muhammad as the prophet of God and the Koran as the Word of God, which means he believes the jihad and the double standard with regards to kufr is divinely ordained. So when a muslim tells you he rejects violent jihad (which if you watch closely, even the "moderate" muslims very rarely say -they usually say "terrorism", which could equally mean I support violent jihad but I think attacking schools is going tooo far), this statement seems mutually exclusive with the logical and general accepted meaning of the statement "I am a muslim". Which means that person seems to be making one false statement, or he doesn't possess reasoning capabilities, either of which is enough to make one naturally suspicious.
Posted by: godfreyofbouillon at December 3, 2006 2:39 PM
Given the events of the last few years, to say nothing of the last 1400 years, the extent of this ignorance about Islam is discouraging.
Posted by: BunrattyBill at December 3, 2006 10:07 AM
Given the slow and steady rise of anti-muslim sentiment in the U.S., it appears that more and more Americans are becoming less "ignorant." That is encouraging.
I think most of us would agree that the only way to dispel warm and fuzzy misconceptions about islam is through "education", the same solution advocated by the whining imams, CAIR officials, and other assorted muslim fifth columnists. Education is defintely the answer; the more one knows about islam, the more one hates it.
Posted by: Susanp at December 3, 2006 2:39 PM
""muslims murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11.
muslims murdered 52 Brits on 7/7
muslims murdered 201 Spaniards on 3/11
muslims murdered 785 Israelis in the last six years.
muslims murdered 2 million plus Christians in Sudan.
muslims murdered a million plus Africans in Darfur
muslims raped millions of women and children in Darfur and Sudan.
muslims murdered 186 children and 158 adults, a total of 354 in Belsan.
muslims have murdered and harmed tens of millions of innocents in the last two decades.
how many muslims have you seen marching and protesting in the streets over the violence and atrocities commited by their fellow muslims????""
AMEN!!!
The Texican said it right..
Have you ever hear of a Christian burn a temple or Mosque to the ground in the name of faith?
Temples and Churches have been destroyed by Muslims, why is that?
hmmm
Posted by: nomorecorrectness at December 3, 2006 2:47 PM
Isabellathecrusader,
I think the first step in dismantling CAIR is to somehow get the FBI to declare them a terrorist organization, and freeze their assets. I must admit that I am amazed that this hasn't happened already.
There are numerous links between CAIR and terrorists.
Anyway, I think that if the FBI would just freeze those assets, CAIR would become less effective in the legal arena. And, from there, they could be dismantled by a coordinated effort from the community. (like that will happen...)
Anyway, that's just my two-cents...
Cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at December 3, 2006 2:54 PM
You know, it's funny. I first came to this site when I heard about the family from New Jersey who had their throats slit because the dad and the sixteen year old daughter were fighting jihad in Internet chat rooms. That was over two years ago. Since then I've read everything I could get my hands on about Islam and jihad and have come to some pretty good conclusions.
Last week on Thanksgiving eve there was some graduate student named Liska who got on the site and started claiming that we were all a bunch of ignorant hatemongers. (Isn't that just like a graduate student...What is she about 25 years old?) People started listing their credentials and it was eye opening. You know, the forefathers were called all kinds of crappy names when they decided they'd had enough from the English and they weren't going to take it anymore. The goal amongst the Islamists and the other traitors in our midst is to put us on the defensive and confuse us into stasying apart, thinking it's hopeless and not forming any groups that could effectively fight them. Along with killing people and breaking things, in a war, people lie A LOT!
Good. Let them think we're stupid. Then when our counter attack is implemented they won't know what hit them. Since we are not a violent people, we need to start with educating our spheres of influence and getting it across to them that they need to do the same. Show them the videos like Obsession and that jewel that someone posted last night, the You Tube video called Jihad 101 where they show a Muslim guy sawing off a Muslim guys head. That one was sobering. Show that when someone spouts the lemming mantra, "Islam is a religion of peace."
They are relentless so we must be relentless. what if everyone here bought ten copies of Robert's books to give to family and friends this holiday season? We could make Robert rich but also get the word out, since his writinga are so concise and easy to read.
at December 3, 2006 2:58 PM
Thanks Bulldog,
That makes sense. But who runs it and how beholden are they to Nancy Pelosi?
American,
When I saw the absolute disregard those guys had for the guy getting his head cut off one can only surmise that they must be possessed. What human being could get through one hack let alone saw with glee and then arrange the head on the guys back like some Halloween pumpkin. These people are an effing nightmare.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 3:36 PM
In response to the post by Nariz, who wrote in part, that there's:
"Not much difference between the Calvinist (regardless of denomination) and the Muslim, the only thing that restrains the Calvinist (and the hardline Papist) is the common sense, laws of men and the secular society in which they have to operate..a secular society which they wish to bury and replace with their own very muslim like form of theocracy."
Yes, Calvinism and Islam share certain common characteristics (dogmatic, puritanical, supremacist, etc). That's superficially true.
So why then did the United States turn secular?? Why hasn't Iran or Saudi Arabia turned secular? What accounts for the difference? (I believe this is a fascinating question which needs to be addressed.)
One explanation which has been put forward argues that Calvinism was always on the periphery -- Calvinism was never mainstream, but on a frontier zone. Ditto for the early Puritans who broke away from the Church of England. They were "outsiders" (and by "mainstream" standards, too harsh).
Islam, by comparison, experienced almost a mirror opposite in its development. Thus the mainstream -- the center -- of Islam was austere and rigid (with the break-away, frontier areas being more lax). Thus when Islam reverts back "to normal" -- it's back to the heartland which is strict and austere.
at December 3, 2006 3:41 PM
There is a persistent theme of 'educate about Islam' 'they are ignorant of Islam' over and over again?
Very persistent.
Do I hear a national call for more Islamic education? Are we about to be barraged with Islamic propaganda? Me thinks I feel a wind a comin'.
Posted by: Kay at December 3, 2006 4:02 PM
Actually, thanks to them I am educated about Islam. And with every rape, murder, stealing of lands and amassing Islamic troops on the Ethiopian border I'm becoming more and more educated everyday.
Thanks Islam, I couldn't have done it without you!
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 4:25 PM
STOP RACIAL PROFILING!
We should be ashamed of ourselves! It's time we stopped believing terrorists against the West (and Thais, Indians, etc.) are Moslem or Moslem Arabs!
We American MUST be fair
Read how we CAN do it
If we all pull together!
http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/2006/12/stop-racial-profiling-just-because.html
Posted by: unicorns62000 at December 3, 2006 4:27 PM
Remember, some of these guys actually hear "voices" telling them to kill. Some of that can be attributed to a mental illness, but I also believe it can be demonic.
Posted by: americaningermany at December 3, 2006 03:55 PM
That explains perfectly why some Muslims do what they do. They're merely imitating Mr. Perfect.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 4:32 PM
"So why then did the United States turn secular?? Why hasn't Iran or Saudi Arabia turned secular? What accounts for the difference? (I believe this is a fascinating question which needs to be addressed.)"
1) Modern Western secularism grew out of Christendom.
2) This growth was a long and painful birthing process, lasting at least three centuries (beginning in the 16th century).
3) While it was a painful process involving much dispute, disagreement, rancorous debate and physical conflicts including bloody wars, it also was an organic evolution, indicating a natural affinity for the unfolding of secularism in Christian civilization.
4) With regard to the latter point of #3, all exceptions one can point to in history and in current society may be regarded as exceptions that prove the rule.
5) The vast majority of Christians in the modern West are thoroughly enculturated in the dominant culture of secularism, and they maturely accept its principle of separation of Church and State.
6) A large portion of the vast majority of Christians in the modern West are, indeed, only nominal Christians, and many are in various stages of decomposition from being strictly speaking Christians.
7) The millions of Western Christians who are in various degrees of disengagement from their dogmatic Christianity have a rich and powerful culture of secularism to turn to, a culture which, furthermore, has within its vast cafeteria -- aside from a rich palette of agnostic and atheist culture -- innumerable flavors of spirituality drawn from an anthropology of other cultures and eras of unprecedented scope (not always of reputable scholarship, but that's another story) in all world history.
8) The millions of Western Christians in the modern West have for at least the last 100 years included untold numbers of outright ex-Christians who suffer no penalty whatsoever for their apostasy -- nor for the critiques and even blatant mockery of their former Christianity many of them might engage in.
9) The Muslim world with regard to #1-8 above suffers from impoverishment and sociopathologies which severely inhibit their maturation and induction into the modern world, and which partake of an internal culture of intolerance of, and antipathy toward, all non-Muslim cultures -- an internal culture that tends to nourish behaviors that are dangerous for all non-Muslims.
10) Modern Western Leftism tends to be ignorant of #1-9 principally because of its anti-Western counter-culture which has become crystallized in PC Multiculturalism -- making it therefore a semi-conscious willful ignorance; while modern Western conservatives tend to be ignorant of #1-9 because of various influences, listed in descending order of importance:
a) most modern Western conservatives have become seriously infected by the PC Multiculturalist virus which was incubated and nourished in modern Western Leftism but which has become mainstream and dominant in the sociopolitical cultures of the West;
b) many modern Western conservatives suffer from a more generalized amnesia of the danger of Islam (an amnesia which set in by the 18th century as Islam receded from power and influence on the world stage and as the modern West continued to gain global superiority on a spectacular scale, increasing at an exponential rate with each passing generation) which afflicts the whole Left-Right spectrum in the West;
c) a smattering of modern Western conservatives cultivate their own quasi-Gnostic antipathy, in varying degrees rooted in Christianity, toward the modern West, which distracts them from appreciating both the benefits of Western secularism and the danger of Islam.
Posted by: remote_control at December 3, 2006 4:36 PM
Concerned Citizen
David Selbourne was talking about the spelling of people on the right - he wasn't being specific about Hugh, who's opinions are a composite of Right and Left. In terms of support for Israel and Infidel Europe, as well as support for Hindus in India, Buddhists in Thailand, Hugh does seem more to the Right, but his views on global warming, environmentalism, aggressive economic growth rates, as well as his support for intervening in Darfur, regardless of whether one agrees with it or not, has more commonality with the Left.
Fast typing will result in typos such as tihs oen, which happen when ones fingers either trnaspose the order in whcih keys are to be pressed, or a key fets missed in course of typing. It's Hugh's serpentine long sentences and paragraphs that used to be tough to read, but his sentences seem shorter these days. Of course, there's also the possibility that we've become so used to reading these that they just don't seem long anymore.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at December 3, 2006 5:27 PM
liska...Bigotry: Dictionary.com
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Sounds like Islam and muslims to me.
at December 3, 2006 5:56 PM
Liska,
I am with you 100%. We MUST stop racial profiling, blaming Muslims for terrorism.
http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/2006/12/stop-racial-profiling-just-because.html
Posted by: unicorns62000 at December 3, 2006 6:03 PM
Liska you are free to say what you want, try that in any islamic country, than come back and apologize to everyone here. go to your favourite sharia state, oh say Saudia Arabia, Iran, try opening your mouth against anyone there and see what it gets you. oh btw, an Iranian Canadian reporter was jailed and beaten to death last year in Iran for taking a video of an iranian jail. how dare you compare anything what happens with muslim states to the WEst. and btw if you happen to visit any sharia state, becareful to cover up, because if you get raped, its your fault, and you will get the lashes, your immature and need to grow up.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at December 3, 2006 6:04 PM
BNS posted: The reason attitudes have hardened is that many Americans have watched in disbelief as organizations like CAIR made it their mission to complain about their lot in the US rather than vociferously condemn the savages who perpetrated this atrocity.
Important point. This means that the more CAIR complains of the lack of Islamic awareness, and the more outreach Muslims do, the more suspicuous the general public will become. I like this.
Posted by: DP111 at December 3, 2006 6:15 PM
Nice try with the smear but no cigar. Want to know how we treat the enemy? Go ask the Japanese or Germans. We had no problem killing them in battle but we don’t torture prisoners, let alone kill them. I don’t know the particulars of Serbia but I am sure there was plenty of bad on both sides. I do know there is a great deal of lies on the subject out there, so I will not judge what I have no right to due to a lack of truthful information. I don’t see the genocidal views here that you see, except when a troll surfaces, smears and then returns to their toilet. We will never become like them, and the fact that they would like us to makes us even madder. I don’t like being accused of genocidal thoughts, and if you really knew me you would know how idiotic that really is. So I have no other choice but to believe that you are channeling your thoughts attempting to link us to them. I find it totally understandable that no jihadists were ever caught and put on trial in Serbia, they never are, so go ahead and build your mosques, that’s all you are really interested in anyway.
Posted by: tgusa at December 3, 2006 6:16 PM
Here comes Liska, back from mingling among the ivory tower intellectuals and their cocktail parties, tsk tsking about those awful Islamophobes on Jihad Watch who pick on those poor, defenseless, peaceful Muslims.
Liska, grow up before we throw up.
Posted by: atheling at December 3, 2006 6:19 PM
freedomschool posted : I think Mr. Spencer is asking Muslims to self-monitor.
In effect, yuu think that Robert Spencer is putting Muslims on the 'honour code'. Well I'm sure you can see the difficulty with that. Besides, it is not right to treat adults as if they were cadets in a military school or school boys.
Difficult all round.
Posted by: DP111 at December 3, 2006 6:20 PM
Sorry, but I have really acquired a hate for the liberal, human-rights-activist apologists for islam and muslim terrorists.
Posted by: americaningermany
hey i read your and Senator T's posts on Rachel's blog. Good stuff, but lieberals cannot possibly have an open mind. It might cause them to have to change their misguided opinions.
Plus it's not only very easy for Afro-Americans to cry racism from the comfort of the United States but it can also be very profitable. See Jesse Jerkson and Al "Slim Shady" Sharpton. These guys have been getting a free ride by the MSM for years.
Sorry if this is going a bit OT, but it ties into our general unwillingness to honestly confront jihadism and its root causes with the openness and honesty it deserves to be met with.
PS. Being a "human-rights activist" seems to be a cushy job these days if you know what i mean. And what job exactly would Jesse and Al if they had nothing to bleat about? I forgot, they will always find something. :-)
Spoke to my dad today. He told me they put the opera back on at the Staatsoper - mahomet's head on a platter with the others included. Have you heard anything?
Posted by: germaninamerica at December 3, 2006 6:22 PM
Please use a spell-checker, lest you be found embarrassing the site.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen
Get off Hugh ok? I guarantee you he knows how to spell. He's just typing fast. Happens to me all the time. if you can see the mistakes then there's your spell checker. i'd rather read an intelligent and to-the-point comment than a perfectly proof-read tractate of liEberalism. Hugh happens to be thinking faster than he can type. Nothing wrong with that.
at December 3, 2006 6:31 PM
Suzanne Weiss, a Jew whose mother died in the Auschwitz death camp during the Second World War, said it is not anti-Semitic to oppose Israel's "apartheid policies."
"Just as the Nazis struck out at the Jewish people," she said, "so Israel and its allies strike out against the Palestinians."
[...]
Posted by: ImNoDhimmi
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome!
at December 3, 2006 6:36 PM
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
A part of me thinks that the Muslim challenge may be a net positive for the West. We’ve been so comfortable, and so protected, for so long that we may be losing our edge. Kind of like a kid with no immunizations.
The first couple hundred years of the US’s history always included some kind of struggle, be it the Europeans, or hunger, or a civil war, or the frontier, or whatever else. We’ve been absent a real threat for decades and our collective immune system is starting to drift. In 2006, the ‘poor’ are overweight from too much TV and prepared food, and we allocate hundreds of thousands of dollars to send certain women to graduate school so that they can perpetuate an academia which undermines our ability to defend the righteous freedoms and ideals.
I went shopping for a food dehydrator a couple of days ago and found none. In their place was row upon row of chocolate fondue fountains and fancy coffee machines. In a way, I think we may have become guilty on the decadence charge.
In any case, a Dios rogando y con el mazo dando. We just might need it. Distrustfully yours;
at December 3, 2006 6:37 PM
Not all Muslims are jihadists. Experts estimate they make up "only" 10-15% of the Muslim population worldwide.
All Moslems are Jihadists. 100% of them. Hate and expansionsim is the first stone in the foundation of their criminal ideology. If they're not, then it's steak knife time.
It's right there in the scripture. All Moslems are worthless pukes to be dismissed without a second thought. All Moslems, whether 15% or 85%, are to be shunned and dismissed. They wanna believe in such nonsense? I've got several deer rifles to distance myself from their doggerel.
Not all of us are restrained. That will come out over the next 15 yrs.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 3, 2006 6:43 PM
Liska all we hear is, yada, yada, yada. The trouble with your short-sided thinking is practicality. To help anyone you have to first establish security. Like it or not, our entire existence is threatened and by dozens of differing methods, and from more than one group. Muslims IMHO are the biggest threat but not our only one nor are they the most powerful one. They are and will remain committed to their cause, if we are as committed to our survival as they are to destroying us then we will win, if not we lose. Your moral equivalency arguments will not work here. We could bore you with the details but reality is islam is the biggest single killing machine ever invented. Muslims are the biggest killers of infidels and fellow muslims bar none. To win this we have to establish security and that will require all our resources and may include things, which at first look appear to go against traditional western beliefs. Deportation, internment etc might be necessary to gain control and establish security.
I have been to Bosnia and saw first hand what the Serbs did and I was horrified. I now realize why they did it and I strongly feel the entire world owes them a deep and heart felt apology. They took unpopular steps to end their fight with islam by attempting to completely eliminate it from their country, drastic or necessary, that is up to history to figure out. I understand it; I have also discussed this at length with Serbs and all looked at it as payback. I’m sure all sides would use that argument. Although I am sure in some circumstances individual Serbs may have been carried away and you are right in that an atrocity doesn’t excuse a revenge attack. Rampaging muslims routinely use violence their doctrine encourages it and they should not be surprised when someone retaliates.
Your charges of genocide fail to impress us as we continuously see high level muslim clerics from all over the muslim world calling for a global genocide. They trouble with starting a global war is at some point you have to realize you could lose. Islam will change or it will be destroyed they do not have the resources to fight us all. Praying to a fictional god might make them feel better but it does not make up for the reality that they are not capable of maintaining order in their own countries. If they can’t exist peacefully at home then they do not have the skill sets necessary to rule over us. I’ll stop warning people about the evils of the islamic cult when I see them change until then, the game is on. If you want to see the religion of peace in action look at the post I placed on Doctor Bulldog’s site this morning. It you want to convince us we are somehow all mistaken about islam, hang around here, any of the regulars can prove you wrong and most quicker that I could.
at December 3, 2006 6:46 PM
"2. Establish nationwide, compulsory programs in American mosques to teach against the jihad ideology and Islamic supremacism, by means including an explicit and definitive rejection of the literal meaning of many passages of Qur'an and Hadith."
This "small" step would provide the needed effect, if you could find a way to start it. Would this be imposed from outside, or from within? If from the outside, you need to fully understand what islam is, how it works, and what is now being taught & learned by the followers.
Find someone in say the government, who knows the truth, and ask how islam should be allowed here in the first place. I would like to hear that answer.
Trying to rewrite the current islam, and how it is followed, is a nice idea if we have the time to do just that, if it can be done at all. It is really up to those who walk the path to decide what needs done, and fairly quick I will add, before it may need to be inforced.
at December 3, 2006 6:54 PM
Several American Muslims interviewed on the subject of prejudice over the past few weeks said ignorance was at the core of the problem.
_________________________________________
Ignorance. Yes, let us talk about ignorance.
Before 9/11 and post 9/11 attacks I believed that Muslims were generally peace loving and loyal citizen to the respective host countries that they lived in. However, I had not studied their religion ; the hadith or the Koran. Post 9/11, I resolved to combat ignorance. I bought a Koran. I bought a manual on Hadith. After reading these books I have decided that I do not wish to live under Sharia and that the Koran, if taken literally in all aspects, can and does promote violence against inalienable human rights and the dignity of the human person; as well as promoting oppression of women and non-Muslims.
After reading about, seeing countless pictures, and hearing radio newcasts regarding the killing of innocent children in Russia by Muslims, I decided that Literal Islam is as worse as Nazism was during W.W.II and must be stopped.
As I have posted before I do not have Islam-phobia. I have a very RATIONAL fear of Islam. On a side note: I DO NOT encourage the Cresent Mark on Muslims. I simply require that they take an oath of loyalty to their host country and if they violate this oath that they are then humanely deported back to their host country. In fact, in fairness, I'd have no problem taking similar oath myself.
Jihad Watch is indeed combating ignorance. Just not the ignorance that the Jihadists and their Mainstream Media desire to defeat.
Posted by: Monkeywho at December 3, 2006 6:54 PM
I have been to Bosnia and saw first hand what the Serbs did and I was horrified. I now realize why they did it and I strongly feel the entire world owes them a deep and heart felt apology. They took unpopular steps to end their fight with islam by attempting to completely eliminate it from their country, drastic or necessary...a
Yes. Yes. The story not told. The reality not realized. Where are the bold intellectuals nowadays?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 3, 2006 6:58 PM
Why do people begin to hate, Liska?
When we see beheadings on the net, followed by cheers from the islamic world.
Terror in various places all over the world, the perp is who?
I'll bet you hate the USA, right? Think we are the biggest terrorist state?
Leftism is a mental disorder. Self-hatred or hatred for your nearest neighbor....especially "rednecks or white trash", right?
You care, don't you? You have deeper feelings, don't you?
/blech
at December 3, 2006 7:17 PM
Hugh,
respectfully ask that you go back and re-read my posting as it apppears you misunderstood the intended message.
That said, now to your questions......
What is a jihadist? "jihadist" is a radical Muslim who believes that peace is only an interval between a continuation of hostilities.
"Experts" are those who have conducted credible reseach, published, and have been in circulation long enough to have had their work thoroughly scrutinized by their peers.
I hope this does it for you.
ohara
Posted by: OHara at December 3, 2006 7:22 PM
I am with you 100%. We MUST stop racial profiling, blaming Muslims for terrorism.
http://islamic-danger.blogspot.com/2006/12/stop-racial-profiling-just-because.html
I just read that. I have to believe whoever created that blog is putting us on. Especially this part is too funny to be believed:
"Terrorists come in all different colors and flavors.
Young men of Middle-Eastern appearance applying to flight schools are not necessarily terrorists. Airlines in Islamic countries need pilots too."
Posted by: germaninamerica at December 3, 2006 7:33 PM
Of course I have mistrust of Muslims. Why wouldn't I?
After all, it wasn't a Catholic, Jew, Baptist, or Mormon that flew planes into buildings on 9/11 for some "god" of stone that sits in the desert.
They scream about Jihad, Jihad, Jihad? Well.... what we may need is a good old crusade to the Holy Land. Conflict between civilization and Islam will happen some day anyway. What will it be West? Freedom and Liberty? Or a return to the Stone Age?
As I saw on another blog a few months ago:
"There is no God but God and Jesus is His Son."
Posted by: HistorianTheologian at December 3, 2006 7:37 PM
To scarab:
I doubt I'd be much of an arm wrestler, but I'll take on anyone in a shouting match. ;)
Nariz wrote:
"While I agree with your sentiment, using the Goths and Vandals as an example is piss poor and inaccurate."
--
Well, the intent of my statement wasn't to compare the religions or cultures or races of the Visigoths to the Arab Muslims -- it was, however, a definite parallel to the way that the Romans allowed the Goths into their midst (the reason doesn't matter) and paid for that folly by ultimately having their capital of Rome sacked for the first time in several hundred years.
We allow the Muslims to keep migrating to our nations, living, breeding, lobbying and scheming in our midst, despite all the waving red flags (i.e. 9-11, Iraq, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, riots in France, bombings in Spain and England, etc.) that should be convincing us to shut our borders to them entirely.
Your the first person in a long, long time to describe something I've stated as piss poor, so I felt I better take a second to explain. LOL.
at December 3, 2006 7:46 PM
edit: your = you're
(Don't you hate that when that happens?)
Posted by: Foehammer at December 3, 2006 7:47 PM
Do they not look at the camels how they are made.
And the sky how it is raised high.
And the mountains how they are fixed firm.
And the earth how it is spread out?
(Wa ilal'ardi kayfa sutihat.)
-- Sura 88:17-20
Interpretation given in Al-Jalalein:
At the earth how it is spread out(*) (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched, so they can see in it a sign for the power of Allah ... and his saying sutihat makes it obvious that the earth is flat, and this is certified by Ulama' ash-shar'a (the shari'a theologians), not a globe as it is said by ahlul-hay'a (the laymen)." (Tafseer Al-Jalalein. printed in Damascus 1964. Al-Mallah Printshop and Bookstore)
(*) The word "sutihat" is from the root word "sataha".
Note: The commentators are well informed about the scientific conclusion that the earth is a globe, but the scientists are considered to be laymen in regard to understanding the meaning of the Qur'an. Because revelation has primacy over science, the Qur'an is the decisive basis for the commentators to insist that the earth is flat.
Furthermore, the Qur'an says:
And after that He spread the earth.
(Wal'arda ba'da dhalika da-ha-ha.)
-- Sura 79:30
Yes, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM!
Posted by: Alert at December 3, 2006 8:12 PM
Infidels, according to muslims, are ignorant. After which, Infidels are the enemy to be lied to, cheated, decieved, looted, raped and finally killed.
Welcome to Islam!
Posted by: Alert at December 3, 2006 8:21 PM
Which of these Statements is not like the others?????
- Muhammad was a PEDOPHILE......Fact
- Muhammad was a MYSOGYNIST.....Fact
- Muhammad made WAR on those he could not convert to Islam ................Fact
- Muhammads punishments were INHUMANE and extremely CRUEL..................Fact
- Muhammads followers consider him to be the Perfect Human specimen and role Model for ideal Human Behaviour................Fact
- Muhammads followers dilligently ImMITATE him to this day .............................Fact
- Muhammads laws make it nearly inpossible for a Woman to prove Rape ?
( 4 male witness' needed ).........Fact
- Millions of people are in Danger From Islam...............................Fact
- Islam eventually persecuted and continues to persecute Jews and Christians because they could not be converted to Islam by Muhammad and because they rejected his backward teachings and him as a Prophet .............Fact
- Muhammads followers consider innocent non Muslim men, women and Children to be legitimate tagets of Jihad .....................Fact
- The greatest threat the world faces is from Islam and Islamic Jihad..............................Fact(imo)
and last but certainly not least.....
- ISLAM is a Religion of PEACE and TOLERANCE?
WTF????
someone please explain this too me?
preferably a Muslim
at December 3, 2006 9:08 PM
You guys,
What did I miss? I had to meet a client late this afternoon and just got back in but it seems our friend Liska was here. Damn!
Was it something I said? ; )
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 9:08 PM
http://www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=41669&theType=NB
Posted by: DCWatson at December 3, 2006 9:11 PM
How much of the anti-Muslim sentiment is due to a growing awareness of the roots of Muslim violence and not to the "ignorance" of the populace that Muslims, inspired by the Quran to deceive, would have the rest of us believe.
Ignorance is fatal!
Posted by: infidelion1095 at December 3, 2006 9:16 PM
What's a Liska and why is everybody posting about it? Am I missing something here?
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 9:19 PM
Why does anyone believe you can negotiate an honest contract with any Mooslim?
Actually, these are the four simple steps that should be followed when dealing with all Mooslims in a non-Mooslim country:
1.) Round up all Mooslims,
2.) Round up all dhimmi's sympathetic to Mooslim cause,
3.) Deport to nearest ME country, or learn to make soylent shish kabob,
4.) Rinse and repeat steps 1-3 until non-Mooslim country fully purged of infestation.
Posted by: williamtheconqueror at December 3, 2006 9:33 PM
POLLS SHOW WIDESPREAD ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT
And THANK GOD for that! At least it shows there are people for whom ACTIONS speak louder than words.They can see for themselves the actions of the koranimals vs. the words of the apologists and the LiEberals. Basing one's judgement on actions and deeds is the prudent way to go.
LiEberals are all about words.. obfuscation and changing meanings and definitions.. moving things around and creating new meanings to suit their own aims. Problem is when you repeat a lie long enough you tend to forget it was a lie and you will then take it for truth. One more piece of analysis of what is wrong with the LiEberal mindset.
LiEberalism is a MENTAL DISORDER!!!
Two months of active involvement on Jihadwatch should be mandatory for all LiEberals.
Call it sensitivity training for LiEberals. Get them to learn to love and appreciate thier own ountry.. their countrymen and our common Western Historuy and Culture.
THAT would be a sensitivity training I could sign on to!
Posted by: germaninamerica at December 3, 2006 9:36 PM
The best way for Mulims to incite a distrust about them is to continue calling non-Muslims "Ignorant" , for them to presuppose non-Muslims are all idiots and suffer from myopia with our narrow horizons is pretty rich considering the lies the spew about Jesus and yet claim he is in the Quran as a revered Prophet.
I'm guessing the issue with CAIR is that they assume we in the west are as dumbed down and
easily fooled like the Middle east Rent-A-Mob yahoo's that riot at the flip of a switch and instantly blame "The jews" .
Dougie Hooper rants about respect and dialogue but what he really means is we bow down to Allah and Muhammad while listening to their verses from the Quran , I don't have too much fear for a god that needs mobs of Muslims to defend them and kill any opponents for fear of hurt feelings .
at December 3, 2006 9:37 PM
ISLAMFORLOSERS,
I referred to her in my post at 2:58pm this afternoon. She was someone who got on a thread back on the night before Thanksgiving and started admonishing us for being bigots and ignorant of Islam because she is a graduate student and has a blonde haired blue eyed Muslim boyfriend, so obviously none of us know what the hell we are talking about. She appears to be some sort of troll. I suppose her comments here today were deleted.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 9:46 PM
Here is the link where Liska first appeared at 5:49pm.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014141.php
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at December 3, 2006 9:51 PM
Didn't imanutjob in Iran suggest that Jews and Christians be required to wear identifying symbols?
Perhaps Klein should consider how Jews and Christians are treated in Muslim countries or how they are treated under Sharia.
Posted by: WillPower at December 3, 2006 10:03 PM
"Hossam Ahmed, a retired Air Force Reserve colonel who occasionally leads prayer meetings for the small Muslim congregation at the
Pentagon, agreed. 'Ignorance is the number one problem. Education is of the essence.'"
-- from the article above
The personally appealing Muslim who outwardly seems to offer no problem, and whose version of Islam bears, either out of his own wilfull ignorance or out of embarrassment rather than sinister motives, nonetheless poses a problem. No doubt the military colleagues of Hossam Ahmed find him a swell fellow, but that should not get in the way of their studying Islam, comprehending Islam, and indeed comprehending why the unrepresentative "good Muslim" -- the handful who serve in the armed services, perhaps because they came, say, from India (where educated Muslims have had to accommodate themselves to, and have therefore been affected outwardly by, the larger non-Muslim society in which they swim, which softens the hard edges, at least outwardly) or are in other ways quite particular in their personal histories (Afghanis who fled the Taliban, Iranians who fled the Islamic Republic of Iran), and who should not for a moment been taken to "represent Islam" or, still worse, to demonstrate that there is nothing to worry about. There is, and they, and the misconceptions their own outward charm and affability present, to Infidel Americans keen not to offend colleagues, keen to assume the best and never the worst, keen not to be too mistrustful nor to draw conclusions based on the study of a belief-system, can be quite dangerous.
Imagine, for a moment, attempting to arrive at, and then to articulate, to one's colleagues, or to policymakers, what has been suggested so often here: the need to see the belief-system of Islam as a source of permanent threat to all non-Muslims, and then to formulate a policy designed to divide and demoralize the Camp of Islam in order to lessen that menace, and at the same time to allow the natural fissures within Islam, ethnic, sectarian, and economic, develop so that they will do the work that might otherwise have to be accomplished by Infidels in other ways.
Now imagine that you teach at a military school with a Muslim colleague -- say, Vali Nasr. Or you are giving a presentation to people in the executive branch and Zalmay Khalilzad is present. Or you are giving a lecture to a select group and either, or both, Fouad Ajami and Kanan Makiya are participatns -- both of them clearly Muslim-for-identificaton-purposes-only Muslims, yet neither willing to be an open apostate, and both of them retaining -- Makiya it would appear far more than Ajami -- a filial piety (perhaps to remembrances of relatives past, who were simple and pious Muslims who rejected all the natural anti-Infidel attitudes of Islam) that causes you to not wish to hear about plans to divide and demoralize and weaken Islam. It would, under such circumstances, require people quite sure of themselves, and willing to offend colleagues or others whom they know, whom they may have to work beside, people who are personally attractive, but who as Muslims, even if in name only, may inhibit sensible planning and discussion of what Infidels must come to grips with.
It is not the handful of westernized and secularized Muslims who matter for the making of policy, except insofar as they may, here and there, if willing, be able to help in the propaganda war to weaken the appeal of Islam, to both Muslims and Infidels alike. It is the menace posed by the hundreds of millions of primitive Muslims that matters, and that must be the focus of policy.
Forget all Hossam Ahmeds, Vali Nasrs, Kanan Makiyas, Fouad Ajamis. This is too menacing a matter, with everything at stake, for personal or professional delicacy and decorum. Shut them out, make the plans out of their hearing. It is the only way. Too many Americans don't know how to be relentless, perhaps seemingly ruthless, in their own defense. They have forgotten all the lessons of World War II and the Cold War -- or perhaps they never knew them.
Niceness will just have to go.
Posted by: Hugh at December 3, 2006 10:06 PM
" Niceness will just have to go. "
The truth Hurts , but NOT knowing the truth will hurt even more.
We can't afford to be PC anymore. are they?
Nope.
at December 3, 2006 10:22 PM
Isabellathecrusader -
Thanks for the link. That Liska character was something else. Looks like you got in a few good jabs of the sword. Good riddance I say!
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at December 3, 2006 10:24 PM
"Ignorance is the number one problem. Education is of the essence." -- Hossam Ahmed as quoted in the above Reuters article.
I have to agree that ignorance about Islam is a problem and that education is essential. However, I strongly suspect that what I believe infidels should learn about Islam differs from what Mr. Ahmed believes infidels should learn.
I was once ignorant about Islam and actually believed it was a "religion of peace." But I took it upon myself to learn about Islam. What I learned wasn't pretty, in fact much of it was quite ugly and disturbing. And, the more I learned about Islam, the worse it got. I learned about the astonishing amount of violence perpetrated in the name of Islam. I learned how controlling and intolerant Islam is - intolerant of others, intolerant of internal dissent, intolerant of criticism. I learned how Islam does not allow its adherents to exercise free will or freedom of conscience. I learned that Islam is a religion of compulsion. I learned the true depths of misogyny as taught by Islam. I learned that Islam encourages lying and deceit to further its spread.
In my studies of Islam, I also came to the conclusion - on my own - that Islam is the Church of the Devil prophesied of in the Bible. (I see that other posters have reached similar conclusions.) The fruits and beliefs of Islam do not allow me to come to any other conclusion.
In the past few months, I've seen what appears to be a gradual awakening of people in the West. Muslim violence in Europe is finally opening many eyes. News outlets are starting to produce documentaries that educate viewers about the dangers of Islam. For example, Fox News has rerun their "Obsession" special several times. Among people I associate with, I've found several people with a well founded distrust of Islam, they just aren't as vocal about it.
It appears to me that many people are becoming educated about Islam, and the more they learn the more they distrust the "religion of peace." It seems that Mr. Ahmed's wish is coming true, but the "ignoran[t]" infidels are not reaching the conclusions he wants.
BTW, Isabella, I loved the song. :-)
at December 3, 2006 10:35 PM
The Goths are at the gates and all we can do is argue amongst ourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(410)
Posted by: Foehammer
I *only* it were merely the Goths who are at the gates...
THIS is SATAN come knockin' this time.
at December 3, 2006 10:58 PM
Dear Muslims,
Islamophobia and ignorance of the real Islam by Westerners is not the problem. We have been quite well educated by Muslims as to what the real Islam is. You have taught us that the wholesale killing of innocent people, be it in a school in Russia, the world trade center, passenger trains in Spain, subway stations in London, a nightclub in Bali, and a hundred other places, are not only okay for Muslims, but downright mandatory for a true believer in Islam.
You have also taught us that sliting the throat of a Dutch filmmaker, beheading Daniel Pearl, among others, burning down six churches in Palestine and killing two Christian clergymen in retailation for cartoons printed in a Danish newspaper, forcing two Fox reporters to convert to Islam at gun point, are all acts of devout Muslims. And, if in the act of commiting their horrendous crimes, these true sons and daughters of the faith should lose their own lives, you have taught us that they will be loinized and glorified throughtout the Islamic world as Martyrs and heros, and that their place in Paradise is assured because of their evil deeds.
This is only the tip of the iceberg of what crimes are committed everyday throughout the Islamic world -- in the name of your dysfunctional religion. It does not include Fatwas and death threats against the Pope, reporters, Authors, or anyone else that tells the truth about your religion.
There is indeed ignorance involved in all this, but it's ignorance on the part of our western leaders who persist in ignoring the evidence and continue to insist that Islam is a "peaceful religion". You'd better hope that these leaders never really get educated about Islam, because then you'll lose your most valuable allies in spreading your twisted religion around the world.
As for the rest of us, You've taught us too well what your religion really is.
Tell us again about the six Imans unjustly stopped at the Minneapolis airport. Now that's a real crime!
Posted by: rational at December 3, 2006 11:34 PM
I was once in a military position which included responsibility for a group of guys. I came into contact with only one who was a Muslim, his last name was Mohammed and I can’t remember his first. At the time there was no difference in my mind between Muslim, or Sikh, or Buddhist.
Anyway, this guy showed some promise, and probably because of some guilt installed during university training, it pleased me because I was helping out a man who was from a background different than mine. Hours were spent preparing Mohammed for his written and verbal qualification tests. It made me feel good.
To make a long story short, my visions of grooming a strong member of the command never materialized. Mohammed made a habit of hiding in bathroom stalls and watching others take showers. Eyes peering through the clearances around the swinging door. Before the crew killed him, the government, through my Division, bought him a one-way ticket back from the Mediterranean and discharged him from the service.
Nothing more than one small, late night, un-scientific datapoint.
Posted by: limes at December 3, 2006 11:59 PM
Hugh wrote:
"Forget all Hossam Ahmeds, Vali Nasrs, Kanan Makiyas, Fouad Ajamis. This is too menacing a matter, with everything at stake, for personal or professional delicacy and decorum. Shut them out, make the plans out of their hearing. It is the only way. Too many Americans don't know how to be relentless, perhaps seemingly ruthless, in their own defense. They have forgotten all the lessons of World War II and the Cold War -- or perhaps they never knew them.
Niceness will just have to go."
----
Now, this is the kind of talk I want to read more of!
at December 4, 2006 12:03 AM
Isn't it time to eveluate our position and where we are this time? (non muslims)
We're in the midst of a siege of spiritual and "physical" warfare by islam and under constant attacks of the contitutional enemy (for most of the countries)and still: "The best constitution will not serve us when not executed"
We have enough proof that islam is an ideology and should react accordingly and without delay. The mask of religion is nothing more and less than a lie of the big "Satan" namely "islam".
What do you think the statement below means?
Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
at December 4, 2006 12:23 AM
Isabella, you say: "we are the new fighter class . . . . The fighters who compose this set are men and women who have already passed through the initial crucible of life to arrive in the company of fighters whose roots extend down deep, past the arid dust of ideologies. Such fighters have the system within themselves to combat evil."
Amen. As Hugh has said: "Niceness will have to go."
That is why I advocate a constant program of "limited home-grown warfare" against islam. The tactics in this war may be small, but they are important psychologically, and, if practiced often enough by enough people, they will become significant in economic, social, and political contexts.
Isabella, I suspect you already know all this but I'm going to use the "second person" to illustrate the tactics for others.
Do not shop in muslim stores, or eat in muslim restaurants. Don't hold the door for a muslim woman. Don't step out of the way on the sidewalk for a muslim. Talk freely in public about muslims, jihad, dhimmitude, etc., in a regular tone of voice, regardless (maybe especially) if a muslim is listening. Don't ever defer to a muslim, and always act as though your wishes are to be respected first.
Watch for muslims in public. Watch them long enough so that they can feel your eyes, then smile when they "discover" you looking at them. This lets them know that you are not "hostile" but that you are not afraid of them either, and that you realy WERE watching them.
Make a dossier on "muslim suspects" in your area. Keep a little book of license plate numbers, dates, and car descritions of the moslems you see in the parkng lot, at school, at work, etc. Then go online and locate their automobile registrations, their houses, their real estate tax records, professional licenses, court cases, news articles, etc. If one is arrested, go to his court appearance and identify his lawyer, his friends, etc.
Send letters to congressmen, senators, the President, local officials, etc. Speak out.
Profile strangers for their feelings about "radical islam" and, if they respond favorably to your way of thinkng, push them a little further. Send them to this website. Tell them about Robert Spencer and his books. Encourage them to speak up, and affirm their concerns. You may be the first person who has affirmed their fears and concerns.
If you hear about someone having aproblem with muslims, or with a local muslim organization, call them and express sympathy. Help them put their experience in a larger context, and recruit them to the cause.
Teach your children and grandchildren. They will be fighting this war long after we are gone.
Posted by: texan
at December 4, 2006 12:27 AM
OT,
Speaking of being Politically Correct when our Enemies are certainly not:
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/conspiracy_theory/
Read some of these Topics!
We have nothing on these people. We need to step up the Real Islamic Education Process in the West . We need to expose the Lies and deceptions for what they are.
I'm sure 99% of People in the Mid East believe all of this Crap.
Whatever happened to Fair and Balance Journalism?
Al-Jazeera that's what.
Posted by: DUGGY
at December 4, 2006 12:29 AM
One oart of the warfare against islam.
-- could be a nice combination with pig and dog races near their mosques --
Mosque to get police guard for bikini rally.
POLICE have been asked to protect Australia's largest mosque next weekend because of concerns that a bikini march staged to coincide with the anniversary of the Cronulla riots may get out of control.
The caretaker of Lakemba Mosque, the Lebanese Muslim Association, says it is taking no risks, requesting at least 32 police officers to protect the place of worship on Saturday and Sunday.
Association president Tom Zreik said he met police on several occasions to ensure there would be adequate numbers of officers present to defuse problems and arrest troublemakers.
"We are treating this as something that is funny and hilarious but also taking precautions," Mr Zreika said of the bikini march. "Some people may see this as provocation and the last thing that we want is to see anyone being attacked."
The organiser, Melbourne grandmother Christine Hawkins, has asked women nationally to dress in bikinis and colourful beachwear and rally outside large mosques to show their disgust at comments by leading Muslim cleric, Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly, who likened women to "uncovered meat".
A white supremacist website has promoted the march. Members of Sydney's Muslim community began raising their concerns last week, with hundreds joining an internet discussion to find a "peaceful avenue" to protect their mosque.
Many Muslim women suggested joining the march in their hijabs and burqas to voice their outrage at comments made by Senator Bronwyn Bishop and Prime Minister John Howard about the way they dress. "We're really asking people not to bother coming to the mosque," Mr Zreika said.
"All this is doing is degrading women and giving men a great excuse to have a perv. There are better ways women can express their concerns."
In Cronulla yesterday members of the Lakembaroos sports club attended a barbecue at North Cronulla Surf Club to mark the progress of more than 20 Muslim lifesavers, who are training for their bronze medallions.
"If we didn't have the events of Cronulla last December in the back of our minds, we wouldn't even be conscious that the people here were of Lebanese background," Community Relations Commission chairman Stepan Kerkyasharian said.
"They look Australian, they are taking part in an Australian activity and you have to ask 'what's the problem?"'
The training is an initiative of Surf Life Saving Australia.
Posted by: Arnie at December 4, 2006 12:39 AM
Texan,
I'll go for the not shopping at muslim stores, or eating in muslim restaurants. But I'll be damned (literally) if these people make me waiver in my Christian faith or good deeds. I will still hold the door open for everyone, and smile while I do it. Nor will I throw a can of Spam into their cart.
But I will also tell everyone on the planet what a danger Islam is to life as we know it. I also agree with you that we shouldn't speak in hushed tones when talking about Islam. What's the secret? It's there for anyone to read for themselves anyway.
Posted by: SpongeMom at December 4, 2006 12:41 AM
"monoey
Believrs
anthing
Tsk, tsk."
I always wonder about those petty self-appointed spelling Nazis who overlook the body of a post to niggle about minor spelling errors. WFT, do thye have shti for brians?
at December 4, 2006 12:53 AM
americaningermany,
I think Liska's posts were deleted. Some troll or something. I actually can't recall exactly what were on the posts--it left that much of an impression on me. Ha Ha!
Posted by: SpongeMom at December 4, 2006 1:22 AM
Robert you've done it again! A tremendous distillation of the salient points of what moderate Muslims must do to isolate and reject the extremists amongst them. Anything less is not enough! Either they do it now while there's still time, or we'll do it later when time's run out.
Posted by: alexon at December 4, 2006 1:48 AM
Ignorance? LOL
All of us can see Islam's bloodied hands!
And islam never takes any blame for the misery and violence it causes. See how many naive morons are still thinking america or israel pay people who speak out against it.
As if anyone needed to be paid to see the evil in Islam.
The evil of islam is plain to see for anyone: Islam invented plane highjacking, suicide bombers, fanatic imams who hide their bloody hands, delight in destruction, etc etc.
at December 4, 2006 2:19 AM
"The level of knowledge is very, very low," said Mohamed Esa, a U.S. Muslim of Arab descent who teaches a course on Islam at McDaniel College in Maryland. "There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and some people think they are all terrorists."
The level of knowledge is very very high. We got your number. We know how evil Muhammad was. That only an idiot or evil doer would elevate him into a major cult figure and worship the Allah hs concocted
Not all Muslims are terrorist but all terrorists are Muslims. Plus my guess is 80% of Muslims support Muslim terrorism. They are just fine with it
Posted by: dennisw at December 4, 2006 2:21 AM
I was pretty ignorant about Islam before 9/11. I even had a Muslim housemate once who shared his faith with me during Ramadan. I thought of it as a religion like any other. Even up to a week after 9/11, I was still sure it was perpetrated by a fringe, Koreshian-like minority and that the majority of Muslims would unequivocally condemn what had happened. To confirm this, I joined a discussion group that comprised of 50% Muslims.....and discovered, to my chagrin, just the opposite. Nearly all the Muslims I talked to in that group felt the US brought 9/11 upon themselves, a mere week after that horrible event. There was no unequivocal condemnation. I was floored....did not sleep that night. From that moment on, I read everything I could about Islam and the geo-politics from which it operates. From that moment on, I was ignorant of Islam no more. My views of Islam may be different from those wanting to preserve a pollyanna view of this religion, but they are not from ignorance. I basically came to very different conclusions in my research, catalyzed by very disappointing responses to 9/11 from Muslims I personally met.
If the West, where many people of all faiths and non-faiths live around each other, is to be blamed of "ignorance", what can be said of countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, and even moderate Turkey where 99%-100% of the population is Muslim, hardly encountering, much less living around a non-Muslim? Just how knowledgeable are residents of THESE countries of the specific beliefs and practices of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists?
at December 4, 2006 3:48 AM
As Robert Spencer has said, it's not a matter of conservative vs. liberal, but of human rights vs. jihad. So I'm inserting a link to Ann Coulter not because she's conservative, but because she has yet another hard-hitting, witty article on the whole U.S. Airways/imam kerfuffle:
http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi
Coulter's earlier witty article on the same subject:
http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/article.cgi?article=158
at December 4, 2006 4:30 AM
americaningermany:
I don't think Liska was a moron, just mistaken in certain things she said. I took her post seriously and wrote a careful and detailed response here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014141.php#c306253. Consider sending that link to your friend who liked Liska's post.
at December 4, 2006 4:48 AM
americaningermany:
I'd like to revise my comment just above. I didn't see Liska's posts on this thread before they were removed(?), and I didn't realize you were reacting to those. When I said Liska is not a moron, just mistaken, I was referring only to her first post on another thread some days ago.
at December 4, 2006 5:32 AM
There's one thing I don't understand: how can any Muslim truly be a good person if they are taught the Koran? Anyone who subscribes to Islamic beliefs...how can they truly be a good person if they are taught such hateful things? Does that mean the average Muslim is not a good person? This is always something I've pondered. How can one be a good person yet be taught this stuff?
Posted by: RaggedyAnn at December 4, 2006 6:24 AM
We have to remember that although lying is against Islam that Muslims are allowed to lie under certain circumstances, two of them being to the infidel or kufar, and in times of war for the cause of Allah and to further Islam, as long as they don't mean it in their hearts. So it is not a sin for them to lie to us... Some of their recent leaders have told America that they will do their best to stop terrorism, and behind our backs they praise their freedom fighters. So they are doing their best to stop terrorism... us!!! they count us as terrorists against them... while praising their own who they count as freedom fighters...
What they teach in their Mosques and what they say to us is to totally different things, and the above is just a few that have been caught out what about all the other thousands of clerics. If they taught peace in their Mosques why have the British authorities warned non muslims to NOT be anywhere near a Mosque after Friday prayers...
No other religion in the world has ever had in peace time, tens of thousands of their believers torturing, raping and killing others like we have with Muslims world wide now, so if it isn't Islamic then what is it.. all one has to do is read the Quran to see why they do it.. You can understand a hand full going astray but not tens of thousands...
at December 4, 2006 7:03 AM
I work in a Muslim country and my religion is stamped on my identity card!!! It is done in many Muslim countries, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia to name just a few. But I would hate to see it come to that in my beloved homeland. Perhaps Muslims should simply register with the police when moving into a new town -- sort of like convicted child molesters.
Posted by: Patrick at December 4, 2006 7:38 AM
Mohammed made a habit of hiding in bathroom stalls and watching others take showers.
Well, when your religion regards women to be filthy swine, where ya gonna turn?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 4, 2006 8:12 AM
Czech documentary mentioned in the article is available here (with subs in English)
Posted by: Czech Infidel at December 4, 2006 8:14 AM
yadayada:
Your personal experiences speak volumes. I'm sure you've noted by now that there is hardly ever any genuine sympathy coming from the Middle East for any non-Muslim, inside of a discussion group or otherwise.
We are being played for fools by the Islamic world . Pure and simple.
It's past time for everyone to open their eyes.
Posted by: Foehammer at December 4, 2006 8:59 AM
That's right. Our knowledge of Islam is growing because we are opening our eyes. Here is an example of slavery right here in the good old USA....I go to the cemetery where my wife is buried. The next section is muslim so I see firsthand the culture of slavery and ask the various white American funeral directors what is with just the men and boys standing at the gravesite of a dead muslim while the women remain in the vehicles on the roadside. They tell me that the men and women sit on opposite sides of the room during funeral discussions not saying a word while the men make all of the funeral arrangements. Well at the cemetery the women are not even allowed to go to the actual gravesite. What are they? Dirty. Are they going to contaminate the dead muslim? It is things like this that make me realize that the ACLU could better serve America by bringing forth actions to free these muslim women from a form of slavery and second rate citizenship that goes on right under our noses. Had I know that this cemetery was multi-demoniational with the inclusion of muslims I would never haver buried my wife there. The thought that if they ever become dominant in this country they will rip up the graves of infidels just as they have destroyed churches and anything Christian all over the world! A respondent to the jihadwatch site felt that my previous comments of deportation indicated an ignorance by me in regard to this brainwashed ideology. Obviously "Alex" knows not what the real impending threat and danger of Islam is. Sympathizing with muslims is not a guarantee of survival.......it may give an infidel a few more days of life. That is all folks!
Posted by: Truthseeker at December 4, 2006 9:47 AM
Is it just me or is that high pitched whine coming out of the muslim world deafening?
Posted by: Ronin
No that isn't just you. The whining comes right from the college campuses all around us too. And from the likes of CAIR.
Posted by: germaninamerica at December 4, 2006 10:50 AM
traeh,
"As Robert Spencer has said, it's not a matter of conservative vs. liberal..."
Show me one Leftist columnist who straight-shoots as lucidly about the problem of Islam as Ann Coulter does. It is a matter of conservative vs. liberal:
1) The Right has a higher degree of rationality in its sociopolitical culture, and this is manifested by the higher numbers of conservatives who are "getting it" about Islam
2) When we do see so many conservatives who don't get it, it is not because of the sociopolitical culture of Conservatism, per se, but because of a recent infection of the sociopolitical culture of Conservatism with the PC virus, which has become dominant and mainstream.
at December 4, 2006 12:21 PM
In U.S., fear and distrust of Muslims runs deep
[...]
It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
excerpt from The Gettysburg Address Abraham Lincoln
For the 3,000 of 9/11/01
For the 3,000 since 9/11/01
Slavery will not be accepted by The People nor will Submission.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at December 4, 2006 2:13 PM
It seems to me that the primary difference between what happened on the radio and what happened in Nazi Germany is that the Jewish population in Nazi Germany HAD NOT JUST KILLED 3,000 INNOCENT PEOPLE VIA TERRORISM!?!? We can't duplicate Hitler in our dealings with Muslims, we wouldn't be true to our own beliefs if we did. BUT WE CAN ILL AFFORD TO BURY OUR HEADS IN THE SAND AND PRETEND THERE IS NO THREAT!!! Someone once said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact and despite the efforts of the ACLU to make it one, we cannot allow that. The pc pendulum needs to swing back the other direction for it has reached far beyond the ridiculous TO THE DANGEROUS!
Posted by: Conservadad at December 4, 2006 3:25 PM
"In US, fear and mistrust of muslims runs deep"
Umm, no..."ya think?".
It's so well earned it's become an understatement.
Our adage "actions speak louder than words" is well the norm here...and their actions and words do not coincide...they're not even close. We may not be geniuses, but we're not blind either.
I could easily elaborate like my peers here, but...man, that could warrant a response the size of a novel (much like the mOslems do when answering even a simple yes/no question) and this is just a blog. lol
I think the understatement speaks for itself.
Posted by: jcom972 at December 4, 2006 4:15 PM
"As Robert Spencer has said, it's not a matter of conservative vs. liberal..."
Show me one Leftist columnist who straight-shoots as lucidly about the problem of Islam as Ann Coulter does. It is a matter of conservative vs. liberal:
Absolutely. In fact, name ANY liberal who says anything at all about the problem we face with Islam and its dogma of hatred, ignorance, and death. Of course not ALL liberals are pro-jihadist, but where does the rhetoric come from that blames US for 9/11? Who spreads the venomous myth that "Zionist" Israel is to blame for "Palestinian sectarian violence?" Who will more often than not leave the impression than our military men and women are at the very least as destructive and murderous as those whom they fight?
Pat Buchanan is about as close to anti-Israel/pro-"Palestinian" when it comes to a "conservative," (about the only thing I agree with PB about is the border problem), but apart from him I can't think of any other conservative who is on the wrong side of the Islamo-fascist issue. The number of liberals who are on the wrong side of it are too numerous to count.
With regard to the "ignorance is a key problem" issue, it is only a problem for freedom-loving people who do not want their freedoms taken away by Islamic sharia law. Only by people being educated about the tyrannies of Islam can people avoid it.
Posted by: yohannbiimu at December 4, 2006 6:17 PM
kudos, yohann'...the only ignorance is peoples inability to see through who is masquerading these absurd conspiracy claims (like america attacking itself and blaming others)...
This is just more of the mental projectionistic trademarks (ascribing onto another than which you do yourself) of those whose plan backfired on them on 9/11 (they set out to "change" the face of America forever- they succeeded, just not the way they planned) and are doing what we here call CYA (cover your ass-classic case-in-point, yasser arafat on 9/11, AFTER we saw his minions cheering on tv, where it wasn't supposed to be). It wasn't hard to track it down to its originators.
(PB was just a johnny-come-lately on it.)
We already traced it back...islamist sites here in the US, who got it from islamist websites in europe only days after 9/11, who in turn got it from middle eastern sites who propagated such garbage for their mullah-cratic masters who were in on it in the first place and came up with this hasty CYA crap within hours of realizing the reaction of the US wasn't what they planned on, or anticipated...they got their intel on our reaction from the last people in touch with reality- university professors now being dealt with by such notables as David Horowitz at http://www.frontpagemag.com and and subsite of http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/
(al-qaeda had help, their online fingerprints gave them away, and all their cloaking did them no good...after all, who do you think BUILT the internet anyway? algore? lol psst-it's called the Department of Defense).
And they wonder why we mistrust them. lol
Posted by: jcom972 at December 4, 2006 6:52 PM
remote_control:
With due respect for your enviably concise, incisive, and intelligent posts, which I unfailingly read when I see them, let me say this:
I agree with most of what you said in your last post about liberals and conservatives, but I think there are good reasons Robert Spencer refuses to turn this into a politically partisan fight. For one thing, Robert doesn't want to be read by just conservatives. If his position is portrayed as conservative, then it becomes just "one way of looking at it," just another idealogue talking head's position. To be considered objective (and thus to be maximally effective), he needs to be as broadly appealing as possible, and for that he needs to be gracious to both sides of the political aisle. Science is non-partisan.
Even if the left, more than the right, is culturally predisposed to have a harder time recognizing Islam for what it is, still, once the left sees, it becomes a strong ally. And we simply cannot afford to pass up any possible allies.
Furthermore, I see the fight between liberals and conservatives as quite small by comparison with the fight between the free West and Islam. So the two fights generally must be kept distinguished.
I'm sure you know that phrase about the fight between liberals and conservatives stopping at "the water's edge," -- even if the Democrats sometimes act like they don't know the phrase anymore. But Republicans aren't sinless in that respect either, though from my perspective as a quasi-conservative, the Democrats have more to answer for on that score. But I note that Charlie Rangel recently seemed to show he recognized the water's edge, when he defended Bush against Chavez's insult at the U.N.
Often when a nation is attacked, the correct defensive strategy is to close ranks against the enemy, not enhance divisions in the homeland. Aren't enhanced divisions what the enemy would want? Enhancing division at home only has value if the result is more people ready to defend against shar'ia and jihad. But if it's just a matter of the ideological version of World War I trench warfare, where the lines hardly move and the opposed sides just wear each other down and kill each other off, that sort of division will only help the eventual victory of Islam in the West. So I question the value of berating one side of the political aisle. Wouldn't it be more fruitful to stay as specific as possible in criticizing? And to avoid anything remotely resembling ad hominem?
Most of the left will fight against shar'ia, once their eyes are opened to what it is. I think the proof, if it were really needed, is the turning of the tide in Denmark and other parts of Europe, where a negative attitude toward Islam is no longer just a right-wing thing. Was it Holland, or Denmark, that recently cut immigration from 27,000 to 2,000? That's pretty big progress in a year's time.
Another reason the left are essential allies for conservatives: Just as Americans would only trust an anti-communist like Nixon to open U.S. relations with Red China, so Europe might only trust lefty-social democrats to do what is necessary to stop the excesses of multiculturalism and thus to defeat shar'ia, jihad, and Islamic domination in Europe. We need to make allies of the left.
Posted by: traeh at December 5, 2006 12:31 AM
yohannbiimu says, "Absolutely. In fact, name ANY liberal who says anything at all about the problem we face with Islam and its dogma of hatred, ignorance, and death."
There are a few. Not many, a few. Christopher Hitchens ranks first and foremost in my view. He may not be a "liberal" by American standards, but more of a Socialist, or at least was in the past. And as such, like George Orwell, he sees through a lot of the hypocrisy, double-speak, and self-delusion on the left which is blinding it to the looming imminent threat that islam presents.
He clearly sees the Islamist threat and brings his considerable intellectual firepower to bear against it. He pulls no punches at all.
Having said that, he probably wouldn't approve of most of what's posted on this site either (a swamp of counterproductive bigotry he might say) but he is smart enough to know where the real threat lies, and acts accordingly. He is a pit bull against "Islamo-fascism" as he names it and pulverizes it. He is a thorn in the side of lefties in denial because he knows their world inside out and paints a bullseye on every evasion.
The only other liberal who springs to mind is Alan Dershowitz who is of course a classic defense and civil rights attorney, but also an impassioned critic of extremist Islam. He is even interviewed in the film "Obsession" and attacks Islamism effectively and relentlessly.
I'm sure there are a few others but certainly there aren't enough... yet. Traeh is right, we need more. Give them some time to come around.
Radical Islam is diametrically opposed to everything liberals and leftists hold dear. It's only a matter of time (and some more ghastly massacres) before they come around. Already they are more-or-less coming around on the issue of Darfur. Darfur can lead to other breakthroughs. Liberals are not dumb, they're just still fighting yesterday's battles (civil rights etc), thinking they are also tomorrow's battles. All such nostalgic illusions will come crumbling down once the true nature of our enemy is seen for the supremacist fascism it is.
Traeh on Robert: "If his position is portrayed as conservative, then it becomes just 'one way of looking at it,' just another idealogue talking head's position." Afraid it's too late for this. Robert is already painted as "extreme" for pointing out what is truly extreme in Islam. Why else can he get nothing but a few minutes at a time (if that) in the mainstream media to educate and inform. The "Islamophobe" crap is effective, for now.
As I always say though, don't sweat the minor setbacks. One thing we can always count on is the relentless savagery of the islamic fanatics. Their vicious works will continue opening eyes and closing hearts until most reasonable and civil people will finally harden into decisive self-defensive action, sending the supremacist islamofascist thugs straight to hell where they belong.
Posted by: alexon at December 5, 2006 2:48 AM
traeh,
Thanks for your compliments. I understand your points about Robert's need to avoid alienating the Left; but surely people on the Left of good will cannot be so thinskinned that any serious analysis of Leftist-oriented obstacles to our fight against Islam should so miff them, they would pout and not join us. The Leftists who are actively obstructing that fight, on the other hand, will likely not be mollified by Robert's good graces.
I think the distinction can be made clear between --
1) this should not be a partisan struggle, we are all in it together, etc.
and
2) there obviously exists a lopsidedness between Left and Right concerning the fight against Islam that needs to be rectified, and that -- to paraphrase what Robert says tirelessly to moderate Muslims -- will not begin to be substantively rectified until the problem is admitted and analyzed.
We can thus appeal to people of all political persuasions on the basis of #1, yet still have the integrity to be honest about #2.
"Furthermore, I see the fight between liberals and conservatives as quite small by comparison with the fight between the free West and Islam."
I don't see it as that small: the Leftist obstruction is seriously inhibiting our effective engagement in the fight against Islam. As long as that obstruction remains, we cannot fight against Islam. And if you will recall, I articulate the Leftist obstruction into two modes, one direct and partisan, the other diffuse and more cultural:
1) The active ideas and political programs of Leftists wishing to concretely do, or prohibit, things (e.g., with regard to spying on citizens, profiling Muslims, etc.)
2) The more amorphous -- and more dominant -- culture of PC which has become so mainstream, it affects most of the people on the Right in certain key respects: this PC culture is a growth of Leftism, and Leftists tend to lap it up whereas conservatives tend to follow it with a bit more distaste, only because they know it often means political suicide not to conform.
To the degree that both these modes of Leftism exert influence, our fight against Islam is seriously hindered. (And of course, the two overlap -- far more so for those on the Left than for those on the Right: even PC Bush with his "religion of peace" mantra nevertheless pursues all these policies that Democrats find so offensive, concerning surveillance of Americans and of finances, treatment of prisoners, etc.)
"Wouldn't it be more fruitful to stay as specific as possible in criticizing? And to avoid anything remotely resembling ad hominem?"
That can be an ideal, but sometimes, with regard to the more amorphous PC, it becomes more difficult.
"Most of the left will fight against shar'ia, once their eyes are opened to what it is."
You glide a little too quickly over the "once" part. Getting Leftists to the point where their eyes open is precisely the problem -- a huge problem. And as I've said before, it's often not a mere matter of presenting them with data. They have an interpretive machine that will eat up that data, digest it like Moloch, and excrete PC packages out the other end, including a forever blameless Islam and a forever protected "vast majority of harmless Muslims". Of course, because of #2 above, most on the Right also are slaves to this PC machine -- but the difference is that Leftists love that machine and invented it, so it will be more difficult to wean them away from it.
I agree there's some progress becoming evident, but we're not out of the woods by a long shot yet.
Posted by: remote_control at December 5, 2006 4:52 AM
To remote_control:
Well, I think the compliments were deserved, so you're welcome. And I take your points. Maybe your chosen emphases are correct. Yes, the problems of the left, like those of Islam, have to be acknowledged to be reformed. In truth, I don't have the slightest problem with your approach to these matters, though for my own approach I might differ with you around the edges here and there. Your posts are always reasonable, which is about as much as anyone can ask. I think my difficulty is really with some other posters who rant against the left, rather than offering helpful, precisely accurate criticisms of the left in a spirit of dialogue (i.e., reasonableness).
So maybe my position is wrong. Or maybe this is an individual thing that depends on how one's temperament can best be effective. In any event, I think the left might have a better chance of learning the truth about Islam's evils if we simply tell people about Islam without pressing their ego-defense buttons by saying "here's what's wrong with you Mr. Leftie." Not that you do that. But others do. Anyway, the left is used to being attacked by the right, and knows how to ignore even non-ad hominem argument. So I imagine it would usually be more effective to find a leftie-neutral or even leftie friendly way to explain how Islam is a totalitarian threat -- and let the facts themselves undermine multicultural PC. Is there a need to shout, "the left is blind because of their PC foolishness" or the like? Sometimes the most effective approach to an opponent is indirect -- Socratic irony being a great case in point. As I imagine you know, Socrates would often pretend ignorance and naivete in accepting as true the premises of his interlocutors, and then he would innocently draw out the absurd consequences of those premises like a midwife passively receiving something from the interlocutor. Socrates manner of argument was in a way extremely passive, but all the more effective for that. Maybe if one teaches Islam accurately enough, that would be sufficient in itself and more efficient than explicitly firing away at the left for being left. In trying to wake up the left, it might even help to sometimes adapt leftwing terminology and salvage any decent leftwing concept suitable for our pedagogical purposes. A very small example might be to call Islam "reactionary." Using that word doesn't mean one has to adopt every leftist concept that goes with that word. It's perhaps sad, but it's true that jargon, in every field, counts a lot. If you can say the shibboleths you are admitted as one of the cognoscenti.
But maybe I'm too desirous of reconciliation -- to the point where I seek it even in those cases where intellectual conflict is necessary and unavoidable.
Posted by: traeh at December 5, 2006 6:36 AM
"Didn't imanutjob in Iran suggest that Jews and Christians be required to wear identifying symbols?"
Yes, it happened. And, in fact, this was first done by Muslim rulers a thousand years ago. (I think Jews were required to wear a yellow badge depicting a pig, and Christians a badge depicting a dog. So much for traditional Muslim respect and tolerance.)
So, does anybody know of any Muslims who denounced Iran's proposal to revive the practice? It would be nice to know of some Muslim leaders who spoke out against such evil.
Posted by: pst314 at December 5, 2006 10:14 AM
"In trying to wake up the left, it might even help to sometimes adapt leftwing terminology and salvage any decent leftwing concept suitable for our pedagogical purposes."
Yes, that's what Hitchens does effectively with "Islamo-Fascism". It's not an exact description by a long shot and he knows it. Rather, he's stressing how Nazi-like radical Islam is, and that is effective because it's true. It's not based on race obviously but there is the component of Supremacism (my way above all else; there is no other god but oolah etc). True, part of Hitchens awakening to the true spirit of Islam is his hostility to all religion, but nonetheless he bites down on it and bites hard.
"Reactionary" is one term, I've even seen radical Muslims described as "conservative" which i suppose they are if one is talking about conserving a tradition. Too bad the tradition in this case is hatred of any other way than Islam.
I've also seen radical Muslims described as "right-wing" which is getting pretty ludicrous, but it's just another version of "conservative". If it helps the left to find their way to opposing the evil then so be it.
I'm still waiting for the left to discover and label some other unsettling attitudes within Islam such as "misogynistic" and "homophobic". Then we'll really be making some progress. Of course "racist" will forever be held in reserve for use against "right-wingers" in the West 'til the end of time (even though the Darfur situation could be painted as such).
Let's face it, right and left are never going to hold hands and sing "We are the world" together. All we need is enough unity and agreement on the threat Islam poses to hold back the barbarians from taking over and turning us all into Slaves of Oolah.
Posted by: alexon at December 5, 2006 1:28 PM
traeh,
I still don't think you fully grasp the obstacle presented by the PC Multiculturalist template:
1) it is an epistemological & psychological mechanism that determines how data is received, assimilated and converted into opinions and positions
2) it has become sociopolitically dominant and mainstream.
On one level, it doesn't matter what kinds of data you feed into it, nor what quantity. In fact, it tends to positively feed on data that you and I would think should persuade the person: often, the template only gets stronger in its opposition as more data is fed to it.
One of the features of its mechanism is what a former poster here at Jihad Watch called the "Ego Quoque" argument. This is a version (or perversion) of the Tu Quoque argument which, as you know, is a rather transparent (and fallacious) ploy whereby a person who has been presented with a criticism of their position will parry back with a supposedly similar or equal criticism of their critic -- example: when a Muslim is presented with the criticism of Islamic culture that it spread with aggressive & offensive military expansion that was furthermore egregiously violent, then the Muslim responds with, "Well, what about the Crusades?" I.e., "you too" (in Latin, "tu quoque"). Now, what the Leftist has developed is a version (or perversion) of this, whereby, whenever a Westerner presents the data of the aggressive & offensive & egregiously violent military expansion of Islam, the Leftist responds with, "Well, what about the Crusades?" I.e., "me too" (in Latin, "ego quoque"). Perhaps this should more accurately be called the "Nos Quoque" Argument -- "We too", i.e., "Well, we the West have done similar things too, so how can we judge?" etc.
At any rate, when the switch for this particular feature of the mechanism of the PC Multiculturalist template is turned on, there is very little one can do on the level of sheer data: the Leftist will counter every marshalling of anti-Islamic data with the Nos Quoque argument; one must move on to another level than that of data and try to undo the argument itself. And, as this is only one of the many features of the mechanism, the Leftist will often have recourse to other features to counter such attempts at undoing the Nos Quoque argument.
at December 5, 2006 4:33 PM
alexon,
Adducing Christopher Hitchens as an example of Leftists getting it rather proves my point, for two reasons:
1) Hitchens is exquisitely rare among Leftists;
and
2) Hitchens has been ruthlessly ostracized and pilloried by his Leftist colleagues.
at December 5, 2006 4:35 PM
alexon says:
"I'm sure there are a few others (leftist anti-Jihadists) but certainly there aren't enough... yet. Traeh is right, we need more. Give them some time to come around."
Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt that the vast majority of leftists in America can get past the "evils of Republicanism" to see the dangers of Islamic jihad. For most of them, they'd lower every last amount of national security we have if they thought it would allow them more (albeit short-term) political power.
Guys like Glenn Beck refuse to accept that politicians can allow themselves to sacrifice our national interests for their petty political interests, but I believe that is exactly what most liberals in America will do, given the chance. They'll join "the consensus" of nations in the world who will kow-tow to the Islamist supremists in Iran at the drop of a hat, and wave a piece of paper proclaiming "peace in our time." They'll do so believing that the consequences will not effect THEM in THEIR lifetimes, ignoring the effects to our future liberty and freedoms.
Liberalism just needs to be defeated, period. Conservative Americans must stand for the defense of our nation and WESTERN CIVILIZATION, for it is the basis for all that is good and decent in the human soul. Those who call for its destruction would take all of humanity into the abyss. We cannot allow the liberals to lead us down that road. The future of humanity is at stake.
at December 5, 2006 5:55 PM
Hello Remote_Control. You say:
" 1) Hitchens is exquisitely rare among Leftists;
and
2) Hitchens has been ruthlessly ostracized and pilloried by his Leftist colleagues."
Agreed and Agreed. But on point 2 bear in mind that he is attacked or shunned for good reason. For the same reason in fact that Robert Spencer is attacked or shunned. He is very effective. The ones who are not attacking or shunning are listening carefully.
Hello yohannbiimu, you write:
'They (liberals) will do so believing that the consequences will not effect THEM in THEIR lifetimes...'
Agreed. This is a point I've tried to make here before, that the people (generally leftists and liberals) who are so seemingly unconcerned about any threat from islam would sing a much different tune if they were informed with 100% certitude that among the next 1,000 victims of Islamic Terror would count themselves and their children. Oh how they would then sound the alarms, spring into action, and fight like hell to put a stop to it. There's something about the proximity of an unjustand premature death that focuses one's mind and galvanizes one's will to resist.
This is why I am not as pessimistic on the matter. A few more terroristic attacks close to home (inevitable in my view) the figurative "next 1,000 victims" will be become a less abstract and more tangible threat which will harden America against the enemy no matter what petty partisan politics they presently subscribe to.
Posted by: alexon at December 5, 2006 7:01 PM
Remote and yohannbiimu,
please read the thread on Brigitte Gabriel's talk in the liberal/left bastion of Ann Arbor/U of M last night.
Warning: It may lift your spirits.
Posted by: alexon at December 5, 2006 7:19 PM
alexon
I'd say that Alan Derschowitz' getting is right is in an extremely limited scope: the Israel-Palestinian conflict. There, given all the concessions Israel has always offered the Arabs, it's quite easy for him to be pro-Israel. However, note that he hasn't been critical of any Israeli policies of appeasement; rather, his criticism has been restricted to the Palestinians for not being gracious enough in reciprocating such gestures in kind. If Israel were to take a more aggressive and hostile stance against its enemies, I doubt that his support would be there for long.
In fact, on the larger question of Islam and Jihad, Derscowitz has shown no evidence that he has any awareness of the threat, and would more likely dismiss any concerns as Islamophobia just as much as the rest of the Left would. Only other Liberal who comes to mind is Joe Lieberman, but he too actively opposes Islamophobia, and is on record, for instance, of supporting the Bosnians/Kosovars against the Serbs.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at December 5, 2006 7:57 PM
"A few more terroristic attacks close to home (inevitable in my view) the figurative "next 1,000 victims" will be become a less abstract and more tangible threat which will harden America against the enemy no matter what petty partisan politics they presently subscribe to."
Again, call me a cynic, but I see liberals and leftist pointing fingers and blaming republicans and our own country when the inevitable, bloody Jihadist attack resumes in this country. I also see our MSM (Mainstream Media) joining the chorus of blaiming other Americans for the coming tragedy, rather than the people who commit it. I see them using every opportunity possible to strengthen their power. I can see them pulling an "enabling act" coup (essentially shredding the Constitution), if that is possible.
I've read and heard far too much from these people to believe that there is ANY hope for them. They are hopelessly blind to anything but the taking hold of and keeping political power. Absolutely nothing else matters to them.
at December 5, 2006 8:25 PM
Hello I.P.
Agreed on Dershowitz. Admittedly I'm grasping at straw trying to come up with liberals or leftists who are in stalwart opposition. I think Hitchens qualifies but it's hard to come up with anyone else of any prominence. Dershowitz was a stretch and you are right to point that out.
yohann, In large part I agree with you. There certainly is a BIG problem and there is also more than a little smell of sedition etc. in many of the liberal/left persuasion. I just think they are not ALL beyond hope. I also think that there a lot more secret sympathizers than you realize. They're not the ones puffing and preening in front of the cameras.
Posted by: alexon at December 5, 2006 9:35 PM
alexon and yohannbiimu,
"A few more terroristic attacks close to home (inevitable in my view) the figurative "next 1,000 victims" will be become a less abstract and more tangible threat which will harden America against the enemy no matter what petty partisan politics they presently subscribe to."
Again, call me a cynic, but I see liberals and leftist pointing fingers and blaming republicans and our own country when the inevitable, bloody Jihadist attack resumes in this country...
Not only that, yohannbiimu, but the Leftists will find no reason to associate the perpetrators of future attacks with Islam itself -- the threshhold for maintaining their interpretation that it is just a small minority of extremists with economic/political grievances (usually aggravated by the policies of the evil West in one way or another) is irrationally high, and it will likely take catastrophic casualties -- in the order of hundreds of thousands or even millions -- spread out in many places across the globe before Leftists (and the conservatives who have become infected with the PC virus that emanated out of Leftism) wake up to connect the dots to Islam itself. Is that the kind of threshhold we want to be the dominant mainstream interpretation for the mountains of disturbing data that keep coming in?
P.S.: I saw the eyewitness reports on the Brigitte Gabriel talk and it was somewhat hopeful; however, I suspect that most of the 300 attendees were choir-members to whom Gabriel was preaching -- i.e., that they attended her lecture because they already were on the right side. I won't rest easy until I see the likes of Gabriel on Oprah and the Today show.
Posted by: remote_control at December 6, 2006 1:53 AM
remote_control:
As you so well describe it, the left's intellectual machine is like a Kuhnian paradigm -- impervious to data and arguments that don't fit in to the paradigm. But what you perhaps neglect is that although paradigms have a stubborn stability attained by rejecting input that would wreck the paradigm, yet that stability is just the other side of a potential for sudden transformation once a sufficient amount of contradictory input builds up. Isn't that how Kuhn describes the change from one scientific paradigm to the next? As a leap that incorporates all kinds of contradictory data the old paradigm had been assiduously ignoring?
Also, what about the fact that the left in Europe has been shifting and adopting something of the right's view of Islam?
And if the left's paradigm-machine is so incorrigible, wouldn't that mean one should not announce at the door one's opposition to the left, since that would presumably be to press the left-machine's "ON" button? Whereas talking about Islam without regard to left or right might have a better chance of getting in under the radar of the leftist's intellectual machine?
Don't get me wrong. Obviously left (and right) both need to be criticized. I'm just not sure about the net value of partisanship engaged in when one is trying to defend against the totalitarian threat of Islam.
Posted by: traeh at December 7, 2006 9:36 PM
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