Poor Alan Colmes. He's a nice man, but typical passive liberal who still doesn't get it. My liberal friends are just like him, oh except they spew hatred for Texans while passive on everybody else. So, you see, their portrayed kindness is actually deep seething hatred within. Liberals....party of the poor and stupid.

Posted by: Bonniea at February 6, 2007 11:54 AM

I'd prefer cowboy Texans to useless liberals here in Oakland, and nearby Berkeley. God, I need to get out of California, and go straight to "podunk".

Posted by: wrathofasma at February 6, 2007 11:58 AM

I love her. But I am willing to relinquish my long-established claim on her, if she chooses to exercise her charm and her intelligence in official Washington, for all the right reasons. She might start with Barack Obama. Get him thinking, get him understanding, and then even saying, the right things, and it will force Hillary Clinton and others in the Club of Blind Ambition (Democratic branch) to do so as well. And then the Republican candidates, in the Club of Blind Ambition (Republican branch), not about to be outdone in national security mattres by mere Democrats, will do the same. And we'll be off to the races.

It was swell while it lasted. But duty, I know, god how I know, calls.

Posted by: Hugh at February 6, 2007 12:00 PM

Boy was Alan C. uncomfortable. He looks like he needed to take a crap or wind his wristwatch as the saying goes. She's a plain speaker and what she says is powerful. She's a remarkable woman.

Posted by: Frank at February 6, 2007 12:02 PM

We need to get past these three:

Moderates will be able to take control of the agenda.

Islam is like other things calling themselves religions and has the same purposes in mind.

Islam is being used in ways that run counter to its essential principles. ( it's been hijacked )

Thank you Ayaan Hirsi Ali and all others who stand and deliver.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at February 6, 2007 12:10 PM

This is why we need Ali. If Virgil Goode was on that would pull out a certain tone and mood from Colmes that would be beyond his control. Goode himself would display the courtly manners he was brought up with, regardless of the provocation or insult. They didn't teach taking offense when he was going through school, but the opposite.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at February 6, 2007 12:17 PM

I'd prefer cowboy Texans to useless liberals here in Oakland, and nearby Berkeley. God, I need to get out of California, and go straight to "podunk".

Posted by: wrathofasma

Asma - we need you in the middle of Berkeley the most! Never give up! Take the good fight to the people... they need to hear it most. Getting 'yeses' from people who agree with you does nothing in the end.

Stand and deliver. Never give up. You have the rest of us out here and we're doing the same thing.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at February 6, 2007 12:25 PM

Hannity’s side kick is not a useful idiot, dangerous fool describes him better. He is one of those who won’t figure it out until he is on the train to a death camp. That is much too late to finally get you head out of your rear. Life is short so why waste a hour of it watching an Ostrich and a Dodo bird?

Posted by: tgusa at February 6, 2007 12:29 PM

Tgusa, Hannity is no better, I used to listen to his radio show, 45 minutes of it, and he is no different. He also believes that terrorism is pertetrated by the Tiny Minority of Extremists. In the clip, he did change the subject from the direction started by Colmes to her experiences as a woman.

Posted by: Pelayo at February 6, 2007 12:44 PM

Bonniea,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 6, 2007 12:50 PM

I'm going to have to conveniently "steal" this clip. It's just too good to let go.

I must say, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one brave, intelligent, independent and handsome woman. No wonder the Islamists fear and hate her.

Posted by: Foehammer at February 6, 2007 12:51 PM

Alan Colmes asked Ali to say that most Muslims are "moderates", meaning don't believe in what? His question should be rephrased, most Muslims don't believe in Islam, right?

What is it to believe in Islam? Its to uphold the most core doctrines and the most important acts of Muhammad.

Muhammad had people killed and in the Quran he says Allah ordered Muslims to kill people in certain specific circumstances, including not submitting to Islam.

The null hypothesis is that Muslims believe in the core acts of Muhammad's life as ordained by God. This includes killing people. This includes killing Jews.

Killing someone is never an incidental part of a person's life. This particularly applies to when its done intentionally, with advance planning. Muhammad ordered killings many many times. This was a central part of his life. He did it over and over.

To be Muslim is to accept that.

The core of Christianity is the Sermon on the Mount and the crucifixion.

The core of Muhammad's life is the many people he ordered killed. Being Muslim is affirming those killings as good and desirable. Being Muslim means saying I am glad Muhammad had those people killed. That means, not wanting to stop it if you could, but wanting to make it happen.

The default assumption is that Muslims believe in the core elements of Muhammad's life as rightful and that they wish devoutly that they would happen if they had the power to alter them.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at February 6, 2007 1:04 PM

See folks...

We have to find liberals like her...pain as they may be but still it is fun watching them take someone apart like Combs!

There are several ways to skin a cat and the PC liberals need to be defeated by the classical liberals like Ali.

Down goes Combs! Down goes Combs!

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2007 1:14 PM

To be Muslim is not just to have approved of the killings Muhammad ordered, but to wish fervently to have been the one to do them. Being Muslim means to wish you had been there as one of the Companions who killed Jews when Muhammad ordered it.

Being Muslim means to wish they had carried out the killings and then to be proud of it. Being Muslim wishing to have done every killing Muhammad ordered, and that this would be the highest part of the person's life. Being Muslim means that there is no greater glory as a Muslim than to have carried out the killings that Muhammad ordered.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at February 6, 2007 1:18 PM

Hannity and Colmes are the cable news program equivalents of "Dumb and Dumber", respectively.

Posted by: awake at February 6, 2007 1:19 PM

Pelayo,
I know, they are all fools in my opinion. I can’t figure it out, tiny minority of extremists? Are they kidding me, do they not see what is happening in every country on the planet? The tiny minority are the ones doing the homicide bombings, the murders, kidnappings, setting teachers on fire, fighting the battles/wars. The large majority supports the tiny minority, it is as plain as the nose on anyone’s face. These guys better watch what they say, they will get themselves abducted and converted by the rop. They don’t need to take my word for it they can ask, what was that guys name at fox who got the rop treatment?

Posted by: tgusa at February 6, 2007 1:20 PM

Being Muslim is to wish that Muhammad had picked you to be the one to kill the Jews that he had killed.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at February 6, 2007 1:21 PM

I used to listen to Hannity`s radio show on a daily basis,i even bought his books,he is a nice enough person but like Rush he carries water for the Republican Party,he finds excuses for their mistakes and straight out treasonous open borders policy as well as many others...
The real deal though is Michael Savage.
Once i started listening to the Savage Nation radio show,all others paled in comparison,after listening to Savage for just an hour i couldn`t go back to Hannity,Rush,Medved,Ingraham or Prager,they would all seem small,naive,inefficient in delivering a clear,focused message that our nation so desperately needs.

Posted by: adela at February 6, 2007 1:44 PM

I have deep concerns about this person. Though I do INCREDIBLY agree with her that radical Islam is basically at war with women -- and the lure of abusing and repressing women at will and with impunity is a BIG selling point for the radicals.

But on balance, I just can't stand and completely distrust this woman. Several points

(1) Zembla, a program broadcast by the VARA television network in Holland, sent a crew to Kenya to investigate this supposedly "forced" marriage she had. People there vehemently denied it to a person. The family of Magan Isse, Ayaan's father, is well off, so this is no family that marries a girl off for dowry. Zembla, turning over every stone, just couldn't find a SHRED of evidence this every happened. They produced a a program sarcastically titled De Heilige Ayaan (The Holy Ayaan), the episode written from interviews conducted onsite with family and friends in Africa and concluded that there was deep doubt as to whether any part of Hirsi Ali’s fantastical legend of forced betrothal and flight from Islamic marital persecution was true. Those who watched De Heilige Ayaan were not amused, and public opinion turned against Hirsi Ali -- until Iron Rita Verdonk cancelled her Dutch citizenship, an act with returned overnight the sympathy which has adhere to Hirsi Ali since the murder of Theo van Gogh.

(2) It's Theo van Gogh who is dead, not Hirsi Ali. Some of Theo van Gogh's friends ask aloud what good Hirsi Ali has EVER done the Netherlands. The fact is, Hirsi Ali and Van Gogh are mirror images of each other, and Hirsi Ali passed over another director to choose Van Gogh to film "Submission" because Van Gogh had the €18,000 Hirsi Ali wanted for the script. Meanwhile, Hirsi Ali, who now is now so tolerant of the Jews had nothing to say about Theo van Gogh's assaults on the sensibilities of nearly everyone. For two decades the actor, journalist, talk show host, anti-monarchist, anti-Semitic radical libertarian and libertine had used his television show and newspaper column to attack everyone in Holland whom he didn’t like — or who didn’t like him. He took especially vicious aim at the Jews. Claiming that Jews were preoccupied with Auschwitz, he delivered a shocking insult to Jewish historian Evelien Gans by suggesting that the scholar had “wet dreams” about having intercourse with Nazi monster-medical torturer Josef Mengele — and then said he hoped she sued him so he could watch her try to prove on the witness stand how his accusations were false. He then made what he termed a joke — a joke? — that if the smell of caramels hung in the air it meant at Auschwitz they were burning only diabetic Jews today. Hirsi Ali never defended the Jews during these tirades of Van Gogh's and only now says, when confronted with the fact she allied with him, that people should be less concerned with offenses toward the Jews than with the fact Van Gogh was killed. But these two issues are ALWAYS connected, and I expected better.

(3) Hirsi Ali rages about Islam and FGM, and the Winter 2007 issue of Middle East Quarterly would support that NOW it is beginning to grow as a Muslim problem as radicals reach for everything they can use to torture a woman. But the problem is AT BASE an African Nile littoral problem (with the except of Central African Mali) and virtually unknown among Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran. Ethiopia, where Hirsi Ali was born, has the highest incidence and the worst form of FGM. But Magan Isse, Hirsi Ali's father, FORBADE THIS TO BE DONE TO HER. It was done by her tribalist-thinking grandmother against her father's EXPRESS INSTRUCTIONS. That's her MUSLIM father.

(4) One of the actresses in submission is furious about Hirsi Ali's grandstanding and what she feels is her use of a tragic situation to get her face on TV every chance she gets. A quick read of "The Caged Virgin" finds the me-ism on the levels of that of a fattened rock star with a Narcissus complex.

(5) Recklessness about the safety of others follows her to Georgetown. It was all over the papers where Hirsi Ali -- with her armored Mercedes and her million-dollar-a-year world-class security detail -- would live in Georgetown. Just great for the folks who live within eight city blocks and don't have a Delta Force platoon to defend them!

(6) Hirsi Ali now places herself constantly in the position of telling us which religious groups among ALL the religions -- including ours -- are acceptable and which are not. What's not? Conservative anything. Notice this verbatim transcription from a Norwegian TV interview, and can be found at Norwegian television interview at http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/05/10/audio-ayaan-hirsi-ali-at-harvard/. After a trip to Israel she said (with the requisite disclaimer): “From my superficial impression, the country also has a problem with fundamentalists. The ultra-Orthodox will cause a demographic problem because these fanatics have more children than the secular and the regular Orthodox.” Well, her majesty as spoken and those of you ultra-Orthodox Jews out there can just stop having kids RIGHT NOW.

(7) In another case, she said outright why Christians, Jews, Buddhist, and other religious people who are also conservative shouldn't like her: Asked by a Norwegian journalist if she thought her confrontational style toward Muslims would enchant xenophobes of other religions to embrace her, she replied: “I don’t think they should embrace me, because I think that extreme right-wing people are just as anti-Semitic, racist, and hate women [sic] as much as the fundamentalist Muslims. So to me, it’s just two sides of one coin, both extremists. So I don’t think they should like me at all.”

Touching, her defense of Jews in this last quote, not that I believe her for a minute.

I think this woman is Narcissistically self-centered, and all this happened because after 9/11 Dutch television couldn't wait to find some Muslim -- ANY Muslim -- who would criticize Islam. In ONE MONTH after she took the microphone and spoke at a club meeting (she was a social worker at the time) she was a television celebrity and PUNDIT. Two years later she was a member of parliament. Another female Dutch member of parliament, a 38-year-old Muslim women who has been head of the defense of the COUNTRY since 1998, speaks five languages, and is a lawyer is that while Hirsi Ali was in Holland she had to defend EVEN THE FACT SHE BELIEVED IN GOD AT ALL.

Hirsi Ali is an atheist still and a radical libertarian until she realized how to play to her audience. Gone are the days of drugs (purportedly) and sleeping around.

But to tell you the truth, it's not Hirsi Ali who should be on jaunts with the Vice President of the United States to talk to Bernard Lewis at Princeton. It should be women like Konca Kuris, who put it on the line against Hizbollah in Turkey and died for it. Hizbollah took Kuris off her front porch in front of her five-year-old son, moved her around the country stuffed inside a sleeper sofa, tortured her for 38 days (they filmed it and her brother reviewed it), and then they smothered her with a pillow. She wax 39.

Muslim feminists point out that you'll find Hirsi Ali wherever there are flashbulbs -- but not where the rest of the Islamic feminists are ... with their boots on the ground in the most dangerous places in the world fighting one theological battle after another -- and winning -- saving one life after another in dusty courts in Nigeria and in the backroads of Mali and Malawi and Chad and Tunisia and Algeria -- and in the incredibly dangerous courts in Gaza.

Hirsi Ali, they say, wouldn't be caught dead there. But why should she when there's another cocktail party hosted at the dizzying heights of the pinnacles of the world?

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 1:46 PM

Morgan Sinclair

Hirsi Ali has put her life on the line to speak out against Islam. Apart from criticising her, what are you doing?

Think twice next time about criticising some-one who needs to have bodyguards and is under constant threat of death.

Posted by: Voltaire at February 6, 2007 2:04 PM

Voltaire, you don't have any idea how many death threats I've had, so shut up. And BTW, when this woman's "life got put on the line" she spent her time in a penthouse in New York, then under $1 a year armed guard. This is the last person that will be shot. You need to be worried about Pipes and Robert, not this woman. She is going ANYWHERE that she'll get hurt. But not so the lawyer who just tried and won the case in Nigeria.

Now, I don't want anything to happen to this woman, even though she is a creep, anti-Semite, radical atheist and liar. But I will not be put in the position of not saying everything that needs to be said about public figures BY YOU any more than I'll let bin Laden tell me to shut up.

Got that?

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 2:13 PM

Hell hath no fury. Etcetera.

Posted by: Hugh at February 6, 2007 2:16 PM

Hell hath no fury. Etcetera.
Posted by: Hugh

Well, Hugh, let's just leave it at this: I don't need somebody posting under an anonymous handle to preach to me about death threats, since I've had plenty since I post under both my first and last openly and don't travel with the 10th Mountain Division as my personal armed guard.

Or is it that you'd like Voltaire's rule: that nobody is allowed to criticize anybody you want to support without getting zinged for it??? Hmmm??? Seems, if I'm not mistaken, we've had this conversation before, is that not right?

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 2:23 PM

I've never had a conversation with you. Ever.

Posted by: Hugh at February 6, 2007 2:26 PM

I've never had a conversation with you. Ever.
Posted by: Hugh

Good. If your last name begins with "F", you have been impersonated by someone on the FPM website.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 2:39 PM

"I know, they are all fools in my opinion. I can’t figure it out, tiny minority of extremists?"

Hannity & Colmes are simply following the mainstream dominant view about the Problem of Islam:

1) Islam itself is not to blame, and the vast majority of Muslims are not extremists

2) The problem only pertains to a small minority of extremists who are trying to hijack Islam.

Hannity & Colmes are doing nothing remarkable, nothing unusual. It is we Jihad Watchers who are strange and surprising, not Hannity & Colmes.

And even stranger and more surprising are the Jihad Watchers who get their panties in a bunch over the unremarkably normal position of a Hannity or a Colmes. Don't get angry at Hannity or Colmes or against some dastardly "elites": get angry at your surrounding mainstream ordinary normal Society.

Posted by: remote_control at February 6, 2007 2:41 PM

Morgaan Sinclair,

What benefit is there for you in posting under your real name?

Posted by: remote_control at February 6, 2007 2:46 PM

Morgaan,

I have heard much the same things about Ms. Ali as you have. I'm a conservative and make no bones about that. If none of this were about Islam at all, Ms. Ali would be to the left of Nancy Pelosi politically. And truthfully, just as I can't stand Nan Nan, I wouldn't be able to stand Ms. Ali either. The overwhelming majority of people who share her contemptuous beliefs about people of faith are hard-core Leftists.

Having said that, I am glad to hear her speak out about Islam. And I agree with what Robert said about her earlier.

For my money though, someone like Brigette Gabriel is ideal. She's great and has no political axe to grind. There are others too but I really like her.

Posted by: mighty mo at February 6, 2007 2:48 PM

Morgaan Sinclair,
What benefit is there for you in posting under your real name?
Posted by: remote_control

There are people in this world who tell the truth every single day and they and their families are threatened constantly, even on this website by radical Islamists who come on board -- always under the cowardice of assumed names -- to tell them they're going to die. The more of us that openly stand up, the better. It makes them less alone. And I totally understand if people don't want to. But I will tell you that doing so is an education. A real education.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 2:50 PM

For my money though, someone like Brigette Gabriel is ideal. She's great and has no political axe to grind. There are others too but I really like her.
Posted by: mighty m

Yeah, I think Nonie Darwish is the hottest thing since sliced break. Hirsi Ali make a near porn film and then sits on TV like she's some nun. Not hardly!!

Nonie Darwish is absolutely incredible. Incredible. The best.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 2:51 PM

BTW, I can't staaaaaand Colmes. Glad to hear anyone tear him a brand new one!

Posted by: mighty mo at February 6, 2007 2:54 PM

Poor Alan Colmes. He's a nice man, but typical passive liberal who still doesn't get it. My liberal friends are just like him, oh except they spew hatred for Texans while passive on everybody else. So, you see, their portrayed kindness is actually deep seething hatred within. Liberals....party of the poor and stupid.

Posted by: Bonniea at February 6, 2007 11:54 AM
+++++++++++=

Makes me feel prouder than you can imagine that us Texicans, the righ wing conservaties, are being successful.
++++++++++

I'd prefer cowboy Texans to useless liberals here in Oakland, and nearby Berkeley. God, I need to get out of California, and go straight to "podunk".

Posted by: wrathofasma at February 6, 2007 11:58 AM

woa...........

come to Texas, God's Country...............

and leave the west coast to the leftists and liberals........ China will turn the left coast into a nuclear waste land in the near future.....

The Texican.
God Family America Freedom the only choice at any cost.

Posted by: Texican at February 6, 2007 2:58 PM

brave, brilliant woman. her words are like piercing diamonds of clarity in the muddy waters of ignorance and denial. just wish they'd had her on longer and actually let her talk!

Posted by: kelisw at February 6, 2007 3:00 PM

There is much to be admired in Hirsi Alis courage in standing up to the Islamic tyrany, but one has to wonder if she's completely free of the mind set of he Islamic upbringing.

For Ali to compare the Catholic church to the Communist and Nazis is incomprehensible.

One doesn't have to be a Catholic, or accept Catholic theology, to know that the Catholic church, as an institution, was and is a pillar of Western civilization.

Much of what we hold dear in the Arts, Music, science, thought and education has its roots in the institutions of the Catholic church. Even the Philosophy of the Greeks, and all we know about Roman civilization, were preserved and transmitted to us through the Universities and monestaries of the church.

I can't believe Ali made such a rediculous statement. It's obvious her transformation and education is far from over.

To compare such a creative and civilization building force as the Catholic church to destructive ideologies like Nazism and Communism shows a singular lack of any common sense.

And this from a non-Catholic.

Posted by: rational at February 6, 2007 3:03 PM

SSGT wrote: I have been thinking a little bit more on this subject and I am wondering why the Jews in this country, of which Alan Colmes is one, are so ignorant of what the muslims in the middle east have done to them, along with the Christian and pagan populations, in the past.

The Leftist Jews have sold out their own to the degree that Brandeis University has the second worst Wahhabi apologize -- who had her PhD paid for by the Saudis themselves! -- on their payroll. It's pathetic. And remember that it was Sulzberger, the Jewish managing editor of the NYT, who refused to print information about the Holocaust for three years because he didn't want to appear to be "too Jewish."

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 3:09 PM

I have no doubt I have been impersonated on the web and more than once, and at more than one place. Does that surprise you? I post only at two websites: here, and at www.newenglishreview.org (take a look). The DNA of the posting prose, both rhythm and idiolect, is recognizable, as is the display, so annoying to some, but not to all, of a certain kind of esprit. If the postings you refer to are without that on-the-run or sometimes premeditated sooterkins of wit, then -- to quote a lawyer no longer among the living, and therefore unable to make his words billable, not even for a New York minute -- you must acquit.

Posted by: Hugh at February 6, 2007 3:11 PM

So we now have FOUR WORLD CLASS DAMES BRINGING THE TRUTH TO THE WORLD ABOUT ISLAM:

1-)Nonie Darwish
2-)Ayaan Hirsi Ali
3-)Brigitte Gabriel
4-)Wafa Sultan.

And not necessarily in any order. The late Orianni Fallacci was on that list prior to her passing away recently.

My only critique of the wonderful Hirsi Ali is that she is not (quite) hard enough on Islam: because Muslims believe the Kuran to be the word of al-lah the alleged creator Muslims can NOT revise what is written in the Kuran, can NOT delete Islam's obscenely violent underpinnings, and would be trapped in the 7th century unless they renounce Islam 100%. They must renounce and move on to another faith that does not require first degree murder of its disciples. To revise the Kuran is tantamount to committing heresy by the principles set forth in it. As long as the Kuran is considered sacred text changes will not in all likelihood be tolerated and Islamic terrorism will continue.

However, I still truly respect, admire, and value this lady in every way. She's a courageous, compassionate, visionary young woman in every way.

May they all succeed in delivering us from the horror and evil that is Islam.

Posted by: pythagoras at February 6, 2007 3:12 PM

Morgan Sinclair:

The greatest priority for our time is that the world learn the facts about Islam. The REAL facts about Islam, eg that it teaches first degree murder and against unbelievers for over 1300 years; that it puts the entire world in danger of holocausts through what it teaches its followers. Who spreads the information about Islam's malignant character is far less important than the information itself being put out there.

Please do not stand in the way of this very important work.

We need everyone who knows the true depth of Islam's evil to come forward and enlighten the world. We are all endangered by Islam's planned holocausts.

Posted by: pythagoras at February 6, 2007 3:21 PM

It is wonderful that we have, in this country, freedom of speech, and this site is a great example. We would all do well to remember that we are all (for the most part) on the same team. The enemy is Islam and those who do not understand the ramifications of allowing it to run rampant in all free societies of the world. To attack each other only distracts from the good that we are trying to accomplish. Religion should not even enter into this. We all are in the fight together for our way of life, our freedoms.

BTW, Hugh, I can ALWAYS tell when it is you who is posting. As you so elloquently state, "The DNA of the posting prose, both rhythm and idiolect, is recognizable, as is the display, so annoying to some, but not to all, of a certain kind of esprit."

To Morgaan Sinclair - I find it appalling that you have received death threats, and cannot truly know how that feels. However, Ali has also (allegedly-I don't know that for a fact-just what I have read) received death threats. To suggest that they are less horrific than anyone elses because she has some protection against them, is not fair. We should all be happy that someone, anyone else is publicly coming out against Islam (albeit someone who doesn't comprehend completely--she certainly has a lot to learn). While not equal to Robert, Hugh, Orianni, and others, she still comes down on the side that we are on, which is against Islam.

Posted by: igetit at February 6, 2007 3:57 PM

If the postings you refer to are without that on-the-run or sometimes premeditated sooterkins of wit, then -- to quote a lawyer no longer among the living, and therefore unable to make his words billable, not even for a New York minute -- you must acquit. Posted by: Hugh

They utterly lacked any "sooterkins of wit" and you are, therefore, acquitted, and I might at happily it is that I do it. Delighted, in fact.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 4:07 PM

For Igetit ...

As I said at the beginning of my post I applaud much she does.

I do not applaud this VERBATIM statement, which can be found at Spiegel and quoted at islammonitoronline:

"...I know that I am alive because I had bodyguards and he didn't."

"I feel guilty that I exploited his lack of fear because I knew that whoever touched the holy texts, would be in more danger than someone who just wrote columns..." "Even if those columns were quite provoking".

No sh(*&^&t. That's exactly what she did. Exactly reference at:

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1949

Now, my position on all this is that we are ALL allowed to tell the truth, the whole truth, as long as it's nothing but the truth about anybody and everybody. I won't make a sacred cow of this woman. And I am concerned for good friends who write often and honestly getting tied up in this lady too much, because there is a serious amount of dishonesty and camera hogging going on, and eventually it will all out and whoever's standing close by will be smeared with things wildly distributed by a large fan.

Might want to spend a little time listening to the literary and artistic community in Holland about what they think she's done. And then listen to the thorougly assimilated Muslim MPS in Holland (there are nine) about what she did to their efforts to try to get Muslims assimilated into Dutch culture. Then go read everything that Bill Mayer and friends at PipelineNews.com wrote to AEI about her before DeMuth had an attack of chivalry (which I DEEPLY admire) and hired her.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 4:14 PM

Pythagorus, might want to check that last theorem.

Telling the truth and the whole truth is not EVER antithetical to the cause. Trying to squash free speech is.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 4:16 PM

what are the chances of her getting on The Oprah Winfrey Show ?

Posted by: M Al-Content at February 6, 2007 4:24 PM

pythagoras,

There is another woman who really can be hard on Islam, Isrid Majid, of "The Problem With Islam" fame.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 6, 2007 4:26 PM

Morgaan Sinclair,

"The more of us that openly stand up, the better."

Your reply still did not provide an actual substantive reason why this is better.

At most I can discern an implicit misunderstanding of the mechanics of our current problem, to wit: the conditions that would have to come about that would enable us to openly stand up would, indeed, manifest a good (or better in comparison to what we suffer now) thing -- those conditions being the collapse of the mainstream dominance of PC and the consequent concrete actions taken by our societies that would increase our strength and safety (though the danger of transparent outspokenness would of course not entirely vanish after that).

The implicit misunderstanding I detect is that you seem to think that in our current condition, of living under the shadow of the mainstream dominance of PC, the tiny minority openly standing up will facilitate the process of "more of us" also doing so. That is a hypothesis I have no reason to believe is true.

Insofar as the process of "more of us" coming to openly stand up is symbiotic with the collapse of the mainstream dominance of PC, then I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

Posted by: remote_control at February 6, 2007 4:33 PM

A truly brave woman. Even took both Sean and Alan by suprise. They have gotten a little bit dull, not on the edge. This is why I have been enjoy Glen Beck more. Says it just like it is.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 6, 2007 4:35 PM

Yes, brave and a hottie!

She compares very well to the runway models on Dish Network's "Full Frontal Fashion". It would be a trajedy for such a gorgeous face to be hidden behind a vail, never mind the horrid idea of genital mutilation. My liberal western democracy celebrates and treasures beauty, and she is most welcome!

I wish her love, success, happiness, and I envy the man who gets to share those things with her.

-Tom

Posted by: Tom at February 6, 2007 4:48 PM

Your reply still did not provide an actual substantive reason why this is better.remote_control

But I don't owe you an answer anyway, RM. And the answer is obvious. Courage could use a little company and I am of the character for that.

Do what you like. I'll do the same. People don't have to do the same thing to be doing it right.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 4:50 PM

Now see, Morgaan, that's exactly what I mean. No where in my post did I say that I agreed with everything this woman is saying. In fact, if you'll reread my post, I said that she doesn't comprehend completely and has a lot to learn. Please tell me where in my post that I offended you, because I just don't see it. Telling me to spend a little time listening to "the literary and artistic community in Holland about what they think she's done" is off the point. I could care less what others say about her. I agree with some of what she says, and disagree with some of what she says. All I said was that anyone who condemns Islam is a plus for our side.

My post was to reiterate what many have said, we are all on the same side (with a few exceptions - Naseem comes to mind). Attacking each other is pointless and plays into the hands of the "Enemy".

Posted by: igetit at February 6, 2007 4:51 PM

Yes, brave and a hottie!Tom

Yes. Do you think she would be all over the papers and on TV all the time if she looked like Steve Buscemi?

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 4:51 PM

First read this (I've posted it before, but remind yourself anyway):

"" U. K. Government: Islamic Propaganda.
Statements [1] and [2] below are taken from a U. K. Government document - "How journalists can contribute to community cohesion".

Section [1] basically advises journalists that any one who opposes Islamic extremists should be portrayed by the media as racist and accused of hiding behind a cloak of respectability while Section [2] advises journalists to conceal the statements and actions of Islamic extremists from the public.

The document also contains threats of criminal prosecution in the event of a media group or journalist that has been deemed not to have acted in the interests of "community cohesion".

“A journalist will be guilty of an offence if he or she intends to stir up racial hatred or, having regard to all the circumstances, racial hatred is likely to be stirred up by what is published.”

U. K. Government: Islamic Propaganda.
[1] Expose and counter racist propaganda. Bigots who hide behind a cloak of respectability can be the most damaging. Make sure they are always drawn into the open and their words never go unchallenged.

[2] Take care in reporting extremists. Generally quote people who are representative. Be wary of those with views that might make good copy but to most people seem extreme. Though it is sometimes essential to quote such extremists, be sure to place their views in the context of the numbers they might represent. Be aware of creating negative images. Minorities carry the burden of being different. Don’t make them synonymous with the things that worry everyone, like terrorism, subjugation of women, forced marriage, illegal immigration, fraudulent benefits claims and cruel animal slaughter. Few are. ""

And here's the original document:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/401/ReportingDiversity_id1502401.pdf

Then go and read this.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/02/preparing_for_w.html

!! Que??

Maybe I'm just paranoid ...

Some people are having difficulties with Blogger (and anti-Musllim films are getting removed from YouTube - recently taken over by Google).

Regarding difficulties with postings and with comments on Blogger, I personally find that it's only anti-muslim and other 'anti' type political sites.

It's noticable that these problems only started when Google took over Blogger.

And Google has already shown itself to be totally craven when subjected to political pressure ...

Naah ... really ... I'm just paranoid. Dib dib :)

The uk bit above originally came from this blog. Apologies.

http://4symbols.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!C97D2C379282BFB3!772.entry

Posted by: Sir Henry Morgan at February 6, 2007 5:08 PM

Now see here, IGETIT ...

If you can refute a SINGLE THING I have pointed out about Hirsi Ali, I challenge you to do it.

I will not debate my right to post facts about her that call into question, as Robert has just done, some things that we need to watch her about: particularly the fact that this atheist thinks she can decide which elements of Christianity and Judaism are acceptable without any regard to whether they're violent or not. Right-wing or conservative Christians and Jews are NOT NECESSARILY as Hirsi Ali's quote asserts anti-Semitic, anti-woman or anti anything else. Her barbs about Catholics I find very disturbing. And this I point out and decry on their behalf, not being Jewish or Catholic myself. Jews and Chrsitians are not by ideology violent. And the last time I heard somebody tell a Jew not to procreate it was the *******NAZIS******. What's next? Opus Dei Catholics shouldn't have kids becuase they're too conservative?

Now if you want to have a debate about what Hirsi Ali says and does, then fine. But I won't debate my right to say whatever I please. That's given.

You might want to watch it on this one. This is exactly what the Muslims do to those among them who don't walk the party line. Any Muslim who criticizes another Muslim -- even if they behead somebody -- is a kaffir, apostate, evil-doer.

This woman's life may be more fictional than we think, and even if that weren't true, her attitudes toward religion PER SE smack of ACLU atheist hostility, which is why the NYT can print good things about her with a straight face.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 5:17 PM

Morgaan Sinclair's irrational pique in response to simple and fair questions and comments leads me to suspect the veracity of some of Morgaan Sinclair's interpretations of the data surrounding Ayaan Hirsi Ali's life that Morgaan Sinclair has been packaging for us.

Posted by: remote_control at February 6, 2007 5:45 PM

Geesh. He just doesn't get it. I am not here to argue with fellow anti-Jihad-ers or fellow anti-Islamists. I thought that I had made that perfectly clear. Alas, apparently not. I am not refuting anything, nor am I blanket condoning everything this woman says. I am merely, I hope everyone else understands, stating the obvious. No where did I even imply that someone can't post what they want. If you are against Islam - the better for all of us. That is it. Only point. I stand by my statements. So, gosh, Morgaan - stop attacking me personally. I am only attacking Islam not you. Now I remember why I don't post often. Have a great evening everyone. See you sometime.

Posted by: igetit at February 6, 2007 6:11 PM

bigcatgrl, hrisi and manji are two voices but they are not the same. hrisi is a brave woman who has taken on the world wide jihad knowing full well she is the big target for them. this manji chick still claims to be muslim except that the radicals have hi jacked islam. i admire hrisi more.

Posted by: desidude at February 6, 2007 6:26 PM

Ms. Sinclair,

Your words are filled with venom and envy, and, frankly, you sound pretty narcissistic yourself. By your reckoning, you are braver than Ms. Ali by forgoing any bodyguards. News flash: Ms. Ali is internationally well known; your fame hasn't even crossed state lines; even under your own name I have heard neither of you nor your bold anti-Islamic activism. Would you be less suspicious of Ms. Ali were she dead?

Also, Ms. Sinclair, I find offensive your implied criticisms of Ms. Ali's behavior in her private life, regardless of whether there is any truth to them ("Gone are the days of drugs (purportedly) and sleeping around"). How crass to mention someone's past behavior if she has turned her life around, and how provincial to judge her value to the debate by the number of sexual partners she's had or how many joints she's smoked. Tsk. Tsk. In my opinion, you'd change places with her in a heartbeat. You're just envious YOU don't have the limelight and the beauty and grace to exploit it.

Posted by: former liberal WF at February 6, 2007 6:28 PM

I`ve just tuned into BBC2 at 11.49 pm and she is being interviewed , damn how much of this have i missed.
Impressive , a brave woman.
The interviewer has pressed her on her atheism
and called HER provocative...oh well it is the BBC
after all.

Posted by: aladdinsane57 at February 6, 2007 6:54 PM

liberal WF ...

Very interesting you kill the messenger of the message you do not want to hear. You make up strange assertions out of whole cloth, not bothering to refute ANYTHING I have said about Hirsi Ali, which you can't, as I have references for all of it.

I have the same attitude toward Hirsi Ali that I have toward Bill Clinton: character matters and this woman has little, if any.

Interesting that you defend the indefensible in the person and decide that the way to stop the conversation is to try to CLAIM that the person who brings the message is the same or worse that the message she's brought.

No sale. Everything I've said about Hirsi Ali is real, but, of course, when someone says something you don't like apparently it's OK for you to lie in a Commie or Islamist style: If somebody kidnapped an Iranian the US is behind it. If the price of bread goes up in Moscow, a Jew did it. No matter the Islamists behead people, it's the Catholics.

Somebody says something about a lady with clay feet, and you guys beat them to death as fast as you can. Not the kind of people I'm likely to trust.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:00 PM

Morgaan Sinclair:

I have never recommended telling any LESS than the whole truth to anyone.

My point (if you read my post carefully) was that YOU nor anyone should not stand in the way of it being told. Which is what you were up to in your posts with regards to Islam.

Sincerely,

Pythagoras

Posted by: pythagoras at February 6, 2007 7:03 PM

Morgaan Sinclair

(1) Zembla????"The family of Magan Isse, Ayaan's father, is well off, so this is no family that marries a girl off for dowry"

I don't trust that show and never trust unknown muslims to tell the truth about anything. Rule Number one you have violated already! Btw she produced letters signed by him saying quite the opposite.

(2) It's Theo van Gogh who is dead, not Hirsi Ali.

So what! The point is she has continued the work. Also your rants about van Gogh are pointless. You notice the difference even if he attacked the jews it was muslims who killed him. The point is made: Muslims can't live is civil western society open to critism and Jews can. See point proven.

(3) ???

meaningless nonsense

(4) "One of the actresses in submission is furious about Hirsi Ali's grandstanding and what she feels is her use of a tragic situation to get her face on TV every chance she gets."

Please provide proof for this statement!

Really...I guess she should not grandstand and not get the message out. Yes! Mr. Spencer stop writing books and getting on TV....you are grandstanding!

(5) "Recklessness about the safety of others follows her to Georgetown. It was all over the papers where Hirsi Ali -- with her armored Mercedes and her million-dollar-a-year world-class security detail -- would live in Georgetown. Just great for the folks who live within eight city blocks and don't have a Delta Force platoon to defend them!"

The Truth is out! Stop being so dam jealous. I live next to D.C. and if she was near me I would shake her hand. You sound like the Dutch. Oh my god this is scary! We real Americans do not worry about such things. That is why we are such "Bad asses!"

(6) "The ultra-Orthodox will cause a demographic problem because these fanatics have more children than the secular and the regular Orthodox."

I agree with her on this one becuase the ultra-Orthodox Jews are exempt from military service in Israel if they remain in religious schools. They also live a segregated life which is NOT to my liking. BTW: I have spoken to many Jews within Israel and they are not that "role over happy" about them either and all the perks they get.

(7) “I don’t think they should embrace me, because I think that extreme right-wing people are just as anti-Semitic, racist, and hate women [sic] as much as the fundamentalist Muslims. So to me, it’s just two sides of one coin, both extremists. So I don’t think they should like me at all.”

She was talking about groups like Le Pen and the BNP for god sakes. She is talking about Neo-Nazis not Robert Spencer and Joe-Blo Chrisitan on the street. Jeeze talk about over doing it.

"Hirsi Ali, they say, wouldn't be caught dead there. But why should she when there's another cocktail party hosted at the dizzying heights of the pinnacles of the world?"

Please...she is dead the moment she sets foot in a Muslim country. This is crazy talk. I know Robert Spencer should go to Saudi Arabia and confront arabian men about the "Truth About Muhammed" and be brave as you suggest and then we can set up the "Robert Spencer Memorial Fund" for being brave. There is fine line between being brave and stupid.

We are never going to win unless we can get to the "pinnacles of the world" and she is doing that along with others.

Now if you will stop hating on her and just be happy that she might be changing some minds to OUR cause to defeat Islam. Let her do what she is best at doing and you keep doing what you are doing.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2007 7:10 PM

Oh, sorry. Didn't realize that Morgaan was female. My apologies for referring to you as "he". And whatever is happening to the double spacing after a "."?? Well, now I really do have to go. See everyone tomorrow. Try not to pound each other too much.

Posted by: igetit at February 6, 2007 7:11 PM

Igetit:

It's a confusing name and I am not offended that people can't grok the gender in print. The "aa" came from my grandmother.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:17 PM

Note to all:

VERBATIM STATEMENTS FROM AYANN HIRSI ALI [SPIEGEL]:

"...I know that I am alive because I had bodyguards and he didn't."

"I feel guilty that I exploited his lack of fear because I knew that whoever touched the holy texts, would be in more danger than someone who just wrote columns..." "Even if those columns were quite provoking".

VERBATIM STATEMENT FROM AYAAN HIRSI ALI on Norwegian television:

“From my superficial impression, the country also has a problem with fundamentalists. The ultra-Orthodox will cause a demographic problem because these fanatics have more children than the secular and the regular Orthodox.”

.....................

I don't want anything she has and would never be the kind of person she's been.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:25 PM

BTW, if you know you're a target, maybe it's a nice thing to do for your neighbors not to advertise your presence.

If you are going to involve someone in something that could get them killed, maybe you should tell them that VERY clearly before you involve them and take their 18,000 Euros.

When one director has already been killed, it could be considered poor form, bad taste, or outright endangerment to out the 2nd director without his permission.

I will not be telling ANYBODY where I got the information about the Submission actress in the Netherlands as the information came to me confidentially and, unlike Hirsi Ali, I don't intend to expose anybody, including the actress, to the vitriol from a few members of this board.

Lumping Catholics and Jews in with radical Islamists is completely insane.

Is this really that difficult to get? Or is it just that because she is saying something you want said, it's OK if she takes the imperious attitude she does about religions that are behaving benignly?

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:33 PM

GreatCommetof1577 says:

She was talking about groups like Le Pen and the BNP for god sakes. She is talking about Neo-Nazis not Robert Spencer and Joe-Blo Chrisitan on the street. Jeeze talk about over doing it.

No, she wasn't. Go watch the film.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:35 PM

Morgaan Sinclair

Please provide a link so we doubters can judge ourselves.

Here are quotes from Spiegel International:

SPIEGEL: Wasn't he aware of the reactions he would trigger among radical Muslims by portraying an abused woman in a see-through chador, her naked body painted with verses from the Koran?

Hirsi Ali: It was, after all, his intention to be provocative. But he underestimated the radicalism of his opponents. At the time, I had long since been provided with bodyguards by the government. But Theo would ride his bicycle through the city, and he continued to be listed in the telephone book. Everyone knew where he lived. He was an easy target. His only fear was for my safety. He kept urging me to move to the United States and start a new life.

SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, you felt responsible for Van Gogh's death.

Hirsi Ali: I do have a sense of guilt, but it's mixed. Yes, I wanted to shake things up. But if I had thought that someone would die, I probably would not have written the screenplay for "Submission." I tried to keep Theo's name as secret as those of the actress and the crew, but Theo insisted on having his name on his film. For him it was a matter of principle.

I will even provide the website so people can judge themselves:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,356485,00.html

I remember van Gogh saying something to this effect before he was killed. He seemed a little clueless about the nature of Islam. I will try to find the clip or quote on that if I can. Please if you are going to attack the women (of a personal nature) give me some idea of were the info is coming from.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2007 7:45 PM

Ms. Sinclair, I am not trying to refute any of your belabored points, merely making mention that your tone is spiteful, and that I can detect shades of envy as well. You sound more like a conniving office worker trying to sabotage the company "star" than anything else. Stay on topic, which is to defeat Islamic ideology; leave the low-level gossiping for some other website...

Honestly, your brain power and writing ability would be better spent on the enemy that we all have in common...

You keep harping on the idea we are attacking you because you don't toe the party line, making yourself sound like a brave crusader for truth. Poppycock. Slander is not the equivalent of truth. It is merely slander (aka especially vicious and public gossip). Tiresome and childish.

Posted by: former liberal WF at February 6, 2007 7:46 PM

I post only at two websites: here, and at www.newenglishreview.org (take a look). The DNA of the posting prose, both rhythm and idiolect, is recognizable, as is the display, so annoying to some, but not to all, of a certain kind of esprit. Posted by: Hugh

Didn't you write a few articles for FrontPage Mag at one time? As a 'lecturer on the manipulation of language for political ends'?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 6, 2007 7:47 PM

greatcometof1577 ...

BTW, the Islamic feminists who go into these countries Hirsi Ali won't touch are in just as much danger as she is, and they go anyway. I'm not suggesting Hirsi Ali behave stupidly. But I think it's also good to see that there are those who are.

You all seem shocked to hear this said. It's being said all over the place, but because Hirsi Ali is such a figure of public sympathy people are afraid to talk about her in public. One writer said it was a "near-death" experience even to think about writing anything that expose her negative qualities.

MPs in Holland say she just tolerates no dissent or argument and basically bullies anybody who gets in her way. Apparently, some of the people on this forum have the same attitude towards things they don't want to hear.

I think Hirsi Ali needs to be taken to task on her attitudes towards Jews and Christians. Period.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:47 PM

Hugh, I have never written articles for Front Page Magazine.

GreatComet ... Hirsi Ali knew that Van Gogh was clueless and did nothing. Read the stuff written by Ebru Umar, Van Gogh's close friend, who took over a column of his. She was also attacked recently in Holland. She wrote a book super critical of burqas and was beat up for it. She is very critical of Hirsi Ali's use of Van Gogh, and I think she speaks much better to the problem than I can.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 7:58 PM

I agree with Morgaan. While I applaud the fact that Hirsi Ali brought to H&C last night a viewpoint that neither of them have the stomach for, I don't appreciate her equating Islam with Judaism or Catholicism. (For the same reason, I happen to not think much of Tasleema Nasreen, who equates Hinduism with Islam).

I'm more than happy to ally with Atheists. However, anyone who wants to dump on religion as a whole using Islam as the pretext is a sheep in wolf's clothing.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 6, 2007 8:04 PM

LIBERAL WF:

There is no slander on my part, but there's just been slander on yours in accusing me of slander.

You need to quickly go find and reach the ridiculous law that Congress passed against slandering someone on a blogsite, which is only criminal if you do it anonymously, which you are.

I won't sue you for it, but somebody else might, so be careful. Seriously, be careful with that.

I've provided ample citation for everything I've said. And it seems like you're the one who's being spiteful in making accusations of intent and spirit, which are lies, which you hope will bully me into silence.

I'm not going to cave.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 8:05 PM

Morgaan

The question was for Hugh - I know you didn't write any articles for FPM. The link that I provided had Hugh's former contributions there.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 6, 2007 8:07 PM

Morgaan Sinclair posted Ayaan Hirsi Ali saying:

"...I know that I am alive because I had bodyguards and he [Theo Van Gogh] didn't."

What Morgaan Sinclair failed to add was the crucial fact that Theo Van Gogh blithely and recklessly refused to have bodyguards. This type of sleight-of-hand of the data in constructing and then foisting interpretations leaves any reasonably intelligent reader suspicious of the other interpretations (not to mention the ostensible conceit Morgaan Sinclair has that her interpretations are the data).

Posted by: remote_control at February 6, 2007 8:16 PM

Infidel Pride:

Thanks. That's been my point the whole time. Yes, she's doing something valuable in waking up Americans, but the underside of that is very bad in two regards:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali really appears to hate religion. I can't say as I blame her given what she's been through. But any woman who comes at you with glowing praise for "The Atheist Manifesto" by Hermann Philipse is somebody to watch out for. She is constantly side-stepping the questions on her atheism, and she seems to be trying to avoid talking about what she really things of Judaism and Christianity as religions. But then she slips and lumps Catholics and Jews in with the philosophy of radical Islam. Now there ARE those among Muslims who don't espouse the radical interpretation at all -- and Pipes talks about this a lot as the way out of this whole mess -- but until the moderates get a grip on what Fazlur Rahman was talking about, we're not going anywhere.

So, I have no problem with Hirsi Ali saying the parts of this that are true, but I have a big problem with some of the academic problems in her books, and I am very leery of believing what she says without thoroughly reading on it myself.

And I make a prediction (right before I go to bed!) and it's this: Infidel will be another rehashing of HER STORY. It's all about her. And this is very worrying. And if I really personally dislike her for anything, it's that the level of opporunism is just so bad. This is the worst problem humanity has faced since the Middle Ages, maybe including Nazism because this whole issue may wind up killing as many people, or more. The people who are really trying to work with these problems are not people that have generally struck me as prima donnas. They're solid academicians, they are brave as hell, and they put it on the line every day == NOT AT ALL for publicity, and they take NO CHANCES with other people's welfare. They are, as a group, incredible people.

As for the accusation I want what she wants: not true. I am simultaneously a student of writing and humanities at one university and a student of Middle East studies and oceanography and earth sciences at another. The Middle East studies is not a "career potential" for me, just that Navy moms tend to want to know what the hell is going on with their sons. I don't like people like this woman toying for her own aggrandizement with what is of grave importance, and I especially despise her cavalier attitude toward the safety of the people around her -- whom Ebru Umar would say she simply uses.

Now, the people on this board need to determine where they are at on the issues of what they do to people who bring news they don't want to hear.

[This doesn't apply to you, Infidel.]

Do you lie?

Do you make up accusations of jealousy or the like to try to muzzle the one saying things you don't like?

Do you try to divert the issue from the topic being discussed by scapegoating the person who brought it up?

Is that what you do?

Is it?

Then try not to look at any mirrors for a time, because you will not like what you see, because it's going to look a lot like Michael Moore.

BTW ... in parting, if you've not seen Celsius 41.11: The Temperature at Which Your Brain Melts ... you've missed something wonderful.

And ... if you haven't seen Lost Horizon in awhile, the new DVD Deluxe Edition is splendid.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 8:24 PM

RC ... Remote Control with the emphasis on CONTROL ... writes that Van Gogh refused bodyguards.

Yes, he did. But as Hirsi Ali herself states:

"I feel guilty that I exploited his lack of fear because I knew that whoever touched the holy texts, would be in more danger than someone who just wrote columns..." "Even if those columns were quite provoking".

And this, of course, is what Hirsi Ali KNEW but didn't bother to make Van Gogh realize.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 8:26 PM

R-***CONTROL***

If Hirsi Ali had told Van Gogh the truth, the real truth, about the movie he was making, it's possible he wouldn't have died. It's also possible he would have been killed anyway, or that he'd have still refused protection.

But what Van Gogh said was: “I’m just the village idiot,” he told her. “They won’t touch me.”

[Linklater, Alex, "Danger Woman," Interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, The Guardian, May 17, 2005, at http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1485350,00.html]

So the question is why did she not, especially since she'd had death threats herself right after the publication of "De Zoontjesfabriek"? Why did she let Van Gogh go blithely on, realizing, as she said, that she realizing what they were do with the Qur'anic verses was a WHOLE DIFFERENT ORDER of threat than she'd done confronted before.

And even if that weren't foreseeable, the outing of Leon de Winter was. The disclosure of her living area certainly was.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 8:33 PM

Infidel Pride wrote: The question was for Hugh - I know you didn't write any articles for FPM. The link that I provided had Hugh's former contributions there.

Sorry, IP. I am incredibly tired and sleepy and just misread it. Apologies! Will check back in the morning.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 8:34 PM

LIBERAL WF:

There is no slander on my part, but there's just been slander on yours in accusing me of slander.

You need to quickly go find and reach the ridiculous law that Congress passed against slandering someone on a blogsite, which is only criminal if you do it anonymously, which you are.

I won't sue you for it, but somebody else might, so be careful. Seriously, be careful with that.

I've provided ample citation for everything I've said. And it seems like you're the one who's being spiteful in making accusations of intent and spirit, which are lies, which you hope will bully me into silence.

I'm not going to cave.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 8:35 PM

Morgaan Sinclair

Once again were did you get the quotes from. It is clear they are not from Speigel

"...I know that I am alive because I had bodyguards and he didn't."

"I feel guilty that I exploited his lack of fear because I knew that whoever touched the holy texts, would be in more danger than someone who just wrote columns..." "Even if those columns were quite provoking".

You stated that these quotes are from Speigel yet when you enter it into google if find one site that has them:

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1949

were they have the exact words and even breaks:

"...I know that I am alive because I had bodyguards and he didn't."

"I feel guilty that I exploited his lack of fear because I knew that whoever touched the holy texts, would be in more danger than someone who just wrote columns..." "Even if those columns were quite provoking".

On the site: www.militantislammonitor.org they claim the quotes come from NRC Handelsblad article and NOT Speigel. I now have the original NRC Handelsblad article which is in dutch. My Dutch is rusty so I will get it translated by someone to find the quotes and context etc. What is weird the site also has a nasty letter sent to AEI about the supposed evils of Hirsi Ali. also on the same site see:

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2272

My first question is did you crib the quotes straight from the MIM site? Second have you read the original article from NRC Handelsblad? Last what is MIM stake in all this?

I shall hold my opinion until I get the article translated etc and do more research.

According to MIM the article is at:

http://www.nrc.nl/opinie/article323788.ece

Thats if they are telling the truth also...

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2007 8:45 PM

"Didn't you write a few articles for FrontPage Mag at one time? As a 'lecturer on the manipulation of language for political ends'?"
-- from a posting above

There were two or possibly three articles, at FrontPageMagazine printed or reprinted from JW or from one or two other sites where I used to send things, and if asked, I would send them more stuff. I sit by the telephone, but it never rings.

I was responding above to a particular poster, explaining that it simplifies life to post only at two sites -- this one, and www.newenglishreview.org. I get dizzy if I switch from site to site to site. Don't you?

Posted by: Hugh at February 6, 2007 8:51 PM

Great Comet ...

The source of the "letter" you find may come from www.Pipelinenews.com, Bill Mayer's folks, who wrote a number of letters to AEI warning them not to take her on. They used to publish van Gogh's work, and I think that some people who know or were friends with Van Gogh may still be with that group. They were not happy campers when AEI took her on.

Await your translation. Will want a verification of who translated it before I accept it, a verification I can check.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 6, 2007 9:15 PM

These comments have dribbled off into internecine sniping and occasional frontal attacks that should give joy to any Islamic.

Proudly posting one's legal name, perhaps with location of residence, is not courageous, but foolhardy. For those who cannot afford bodyguards, secured residences with alarms, and live in locations where the possession of firearms is illegal, it would be a sign of being out of touch with reality.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at February 6, 2007 9:38 PM

Morgaan Sinclair

I have one more question for tonight becuase I have to get some real work done but what is your views of Atheist?

You know in general. Do you think they should help us etc?

I only ask becuase you state above....

"Hirsi Ali is an atheist still and a radical libertarian until she realized how to play to her audience. Gone are the days of drugs (purportedly) and sleeping around."

You notice the personal nature of this attack. I am just wondering....

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2007 9:57 PM

All comments aside, Hirsi Ali, has a lot of bling! She is convincing. This is what is important at this time. We here on JW need to get people into position to debunk the popular theory among the pundants that the Islamic religion has been hijacked by a small number of fundamentalists.

I don't think discussions of her Hirsi Ali's background matter much in this age of 15 second sound bites. Pinning Colmes doesn't mean much as I think he's a token liberal that needs a job. The fact that Fox News has him around appears to me as being their version of an "equal opportunity" hire.

Hannity does toe the party line a lot. Savage does cut through a lot of the crap, however he still seems to go along with the Highjacking of the Religion of Peace theory. He hasn't come around to the idea that ISLAM is a theocracy yet. I would give him several more months because he seems to be stuck on himself for a while. That and the fact that he's in San Francisco tends to insulate him from reality.

We need to show that the moderate muslim is actually a version of the yhetti or bigfoot. It needs to be emphasised always that by keeping their mouths shut the Muslim that doesn't go along with the fundamentalists are indeed tacitly agreeing with him.

Posted by: credit man at February 6, 2007 10:29 PM

Morgan Sinclair

In the extract from her book that I read, no dowry was exchanged. It also explains that while the marriange was not 'forced' per se, she had no other choices. A subtle distinction islam seems to love 'oh, the woman has the right of refusal' (but actually has no option but to obey).

The fact that she gets on camera is hardly her fault: she has a message (many people do) and she is extremely photogenic (most people aren't). Is she supposed to say 'no thanks' to an interview, just because her beauty helped her get it?

You seem to be making some implications about her sex life. I know nothing about it, except that she describes undergoing a pharaonic circumcision - the most extreme form of fgm. While some studies indicate that sexual pleasure can still be experienced by victims of this torture, this seems to be mainly in very caring, loving relationships. Therefore one could assume that she would have nothing to gain from promiscuity. Anyway, so what if she had? She has an important message and is getting it into the MSM.

I share her concerns about the extreme forms of christianity or judaism gaining too much political control. I don't wish to live under any kind of theocracy.

Posted by: Lili at February 6, 2007 11:20 PM

I watched these two clowns, Hannity and Holmes (or is it Combs) for a bout five minutes in my whole lifetime and I got mentally ill watching them so I turned them off forever.

It was wonderful to to see Ms. Ali pull their pants down in public and expose their utter stupidity.

I figure most of the idiots who watch these guys regularly never got this perspective of Islam
so it was real news to them. It was wonderful to see.

Posted by: Briars at February 6, 2007 11:35 PM

Morgaan Sinclair

My Dutch maybe weak but not that weak.

I was able to translate enough words and sentences to find the English translation on Google. In fact I feel stupid that I did not just do this from the beginning to end this debate now. The article that you are quoting from is from NRC Handelsblad an opinion piece by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It was retranslated in International Herald Tribune on Nov. 11, 2004. The link is here:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/11/eddali_ed3_.php

She states:

"I feel guilty that I approached Theo with the script for "Submission." And that he's dead because of it. In the cold light of day I know that only the perpetrator is guilty of his death. Instinctively, that is confusing. Theo and I discussed at length the possible consequences for both of us. He said, "As soon as such considerations dissuade you from expressing your opinion, isn't that the end of free speech? That is grist to the mill of the Islamists."

At the end of the article she states...

"I feel guilty that I abused his lack of fear, because I know that anyone who tackles the Holy Scripture is in great danger. A man has been killed in a most abominable manner, simply because of what he believes. This is relatively new for the Netherlands, but in Islamic countries, it's a normal part of life."

You noticed what you left out Morgaan Sinclair.

I have no idea were you got the first quote from (I don’t think it matters anymore) but once again you stated she said:

"...I know that I am alive because I had bodyguards and he didn't."

Where did you get this from?

Why did you take the quotes out of context? I could do the same to Mr. Spencer, Mr. Fitzgerald or even Abraham Lincoln and make them look like raving lunatics. Why did you do it? For what purpose!

Hirsi Ali yes has made some mistakes and miss-steps with her statements relating to Christianity and religion but who among us can blame her. She grew up in the hell called Islam and if I had grown up in a faith that did that to me I too would be scared of religion. Would you not be? She has a lot to learn no doubt about the West for she is still young and still is learning but for god sakes she has guts. Yes she looks for the lime light and so did Abraham Lincoln. Did he not have ambitions and today we have statues and monuments in his name. He is our greatest president. He did a lot grandstanding to get to that point. Also you say she is not brave. There are many Islamic nut jobs that thirst at the idea of killing her. Her head would be a prize unlike few others. She dared to first speak as one who left the faith but even worse a woman. She needs that security because even with it she may not have long to live. No security on earth can stop a madman who is dedicated to killing a person. Mr. Spencer I am sure knows this full well and also knows she is even a greater prize then he. Mr. Spencer was never a Muslim but she was and for this she must die. She has stated she accepts freedom speech, of religion, of the press, of women. What more do we want! If the Dutch cowards have no need for her, then screw them. They rolled over for the Nazis in four days and could not hand the Jews over fast enough. I am tired of the idiot West attacking the only heroes we have left. Trust me Morgaan Sinclair we have very few that can even get a sniff of TV time. She can! So let’s help her before we lose her. Life is short…we don’t have time for this.

This really angers me.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2007 11:45 PM

BTW, if you know you're a target, maybe it's a nice thing to do for your neighbors not to advertise your presence. Posted by Morgaan Sinclair

The "neighbors" issue is what more or less hastened her departure from Holland, is it not? The other residents of her apartment complex felt threatened by her notoriety or fame, take your pick, if my memory serves me. The fact that a cadre of bodyguards was required to protect her did not make her fellow residents feel safe at all, which is understandable. Islamic fiends would not hesitate to decimate an entire city block to kill one apostate and archenemy of islam, much less an apartment building full of filthy kaffirs. When I first read of her expulsion from her home, I considered it cruel and selfish on the part of the other occupants of the apartment building. But after thinking about it, I realized that I would probably feel the same way they did, like sitting ducks.

I watched Ms. Ali on Hannity and Colmes last night and I had a very difficult time understanding her. Her words sounded muffled, almost as if she wasn't speaking directly into a microphone. That, combined with her accent, made it very hard to understand much of what she said.

Her rapid rise to fame and political influence in Holland is phenomenal, especially for one so young. I do not think she was taken very seriously by her colleagues at first but when she began speaking out against the official doctrine of multiculturalism by exposing islam, she became a liability and an embarrassment. Liberal as she is, she is not liberal enough for them. The truth about islam, even when spoken by a muslim, is simply unacceptable to diehard moral relativists. I cannot read her mind and see her motives for exposing the ugliness of islam but regardless, I admire and appreciate her courage. If a committed jihadist wanted to kill her, a hundred bodyguards probably couldn't stop him.

She could be a valuable asset in the fight against islam and in many ways, she already is. But her misconceptions about Christians and Jews and her enmity for all religions are indicative of a sense of resentment, shame, or confusion. I can't quite put my finger on it. I get the distinct feeling that she truly abhors islam but to justify her feelings, she must condemn all religions as equally malevolent. She needs to learn more about Christianity and Judaism and temper her remarks accordingly if she expects to be taken seriously in the United States. Christianity is the dominant religion here and unlike Holland, religion is still an integral part of life to tens of millions of Americans. If she expects to reach and make an impression on Americans, comparing Christians and Jews to muslim fanatics is not a wise strategy.

Ms. Ali is attractive and soft-spoken, with a subtle bearing of haughtiness which may or may not be conscious. I will have to leave the assessment of her character to those who know her personally. I do think that if she plays her cards right, she could have a tremendous impact on how Americans perceive islam, and influence the intellectual edification of genuine and accurate interpretations of islamic doctrine and the threat it poses to all of us.

Posted by: Susanp at February 7, 2007 12:37 AM

Morgaan

I still disagree with Hirsi Ali's characterization of Catholics and Jews. However, I read Hirsi Ali's article that GreatComet supplied above, and the context out of which you took it does change in a major way, particularly when you left out the bolded parts:

But I'm also angry, that he is dead and I'm alive. I know I'm alive because I have personal protection and he didn't. I'm angry that he had to suffer a ritual killing. I'm angry when I listen to the chief officer of justice saying he had no instructions to protect van Gogh. I'm angry at the weak excuse that van Gogh didn't want any protection himself because I know that people at risk, politicians, are forced to have such protection whether they want it or not. This safeguards not only their lives, but also public order and national security.

I do, however, fault her again for her last statement in that article, with my usual, "How the f__k does she know?"

Although today the extremists are still a very small minority among our Muslim fellow citizens, the potential influence of the extremists within that group is huge.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 7, 2007 2:22 AM

greatcometof1577: Exactly. I feel your anger as well.

From what I know of Theo Van Gogh's temperment, he was stubborn as an ox and eccentrically devil-may-care. There is only so much a person can do to try to persuade someone like that.

Also, another detail Morgaan Sinclair seems to be ignoring is that he was a grown man able to think for himself and make up his own mind. He was not Ayaan Hirsi Ali's child to be coddled.

When Morgaan Sinclair responds to me by writing (about the quote she evidently misrepresented, per greatcomet's analysis above):

"I feel guilty that I exploited his lack of fear because I knew that whoever touched the holy texts, would be in more danger than someone who just wrote columns..." "Even if those columns were quite provoking". [Ayaan Hirsi Ali]

And this, of course, is what Hirsi Ali KNEW but didn't bother to make Van Gogh realize. [Morgaan Sinclair to me]

-- this raises further thoughts and questions:

1) How does Morgaan Sinclair know that Hirsi Ali did not "bother to make Van Gogh realize" the dangers involved?

2) Even if Hirsi Ali had in fact not done so (and greatcomet's restored quote of the quote Morgaan gave us indicates she had extensive conversations with him about this) -- had she done so, it doesn't mean Theo Van Gogh would have inexorably heeded her warnings, or believed the full import of the danger she knew (particularly given his personality, as I noted above). How many millions of Westerners do we know are out there who similarly even today would not heed that danger as explained by someone to them?

P.S.: I also smelled a rat with that translated word "exploited". It seems doubtful that an official public mea culpa by Hirsi Ali would use such a volatile word or its equivalent in the original Dutch. greatcomet's restoration of the text has "I feel guilty that I abused his lack of fear..." which still conveys the reason for guilt, but not for the abject condemnation Morgaan Sinclair seems to feel is called for.

Posted by: remote_control at February 7, 2007 4:52 AM

Could Morgan Sinclair be a 5th columnist, getting us to hate Hirsi Ali?

How do we know that Morgan Sinclair is his/her real name anyway?

Anyone who gets us to hate one of our own starts to ring alarm bells for me.

Posted by: Voltaire at February 7, 2007 5:52 AM

By the way, I've been coming here to Jihadwatch for over 2 years, and this is the first time that I've ever heard of anyone called Morgaane Sinclair; yet you say that you lay your life on the line by posting in what you say is your supposed real name.

Who the hell are you?

Posted by: Voltaire at February 7, 2007 5:55 AM

Morgaan Sinclair,

I am new to all this thread debate, what are the issues that you take issue with as far as Hirsi Ali is concern? Please do explain and if need be, provide URLs. Thank-you.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 7, 2007 6:07 AM

desidude,

"bigcatgrl, hrisi and manji are two voices but they are not the same. hrisi is a brave woman who has taken on the world wide jihad knowing full well she is the big target for them. this manji chick still claims to be muslim except that the radicals have hi jacked islam. i admire hrisi more."

The truth is that even Ms. Manji herself is also a big target for the jihadis simply because of not only her book but also because she will not toll the Muslim party line. I have seen and heard her in an interview on the Bill O'Reilly by his subsitute John Cassack the weekend before the 9/11 anniversary last year that every morning she has to check her e-mails for any threats against her and report them to the FBI right away. In truth, these two women need to be admired for their standing up to this Isalmofacist behemonth.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 7, 2007 6:20 AM

Voltaire, write to RS. He can vouch for my identity. What a creep you are.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 8:20 AM

“Recklessness about the safety of others follows her to Georgetown. It was all over the papers where Hirsi Ali -- with her armored Mercedes and her million-dollar-a-year world-class security detail -- would live in Georgetown. Just great for the folks who live within eight city blocks and don't have a Delta Force platoon to defend them!”
by: Morgaan Sinclair

Not that I agree, disagree or even have an opinion regarding the ongoing argument. You do realize that because you post under your real name the same argument can be turned around and applied to you don’t you?

Posted by: tgusa at February 7, 2007 10:40 AM

TGUSA ...

NOT AT ALL. Unless you want to apply the same accusation to Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Steve Emerson, et al. who use their own names but NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER pull anybody into anything the consequences of which they do not understand.

Posting the truth under one's own name IN NO WAY implies the kind of manipulation extant in Hirsi Ali's dealings with Theo van Gogh or Leon de Winter or the citizens of Georgetown.

As Steve Emerson put it: He's aware of the dangers and is cognizant of what he must do to protect himself and his family.

And I think it would make you think long and hard about the irresponsibility of the statement you've made to know how many afternoons I've spent on the phone to FBI Boston and Scotland Yard about the death threats that have been levelled at Robert Spencer.

Have you???

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 11:01 AM

And I would also hasten to add that the fact they get their lives threatened is NOT their fault. But something else entirely is going on with a woman who admits that she EXPLOITED VAN GOGH'S LACK OF FEAR, saying that she knew when they went after Qur'anic verses they were in ENTIRELY different territory with regards to the danger Van Gogh would face.

That, in addition to her taking the position that she will decide which Christians and Jews are OK and which are not. Notice it's the conservative Christians and Jews -- and all Catholics -- that are on her "bad guys" list.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 11:09 AM

Voltaire, did you write to RS about my identity? Hmmm??? Or do you just want to let your false accusation lie ... pun intended.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 11:10 AM

While I applaud your noble yet futile efforts, it still doesn’t change the fact that you have put your family, friends, neighbors, coworkers, bystanders, in potential danger.

Posted by: tgusa at February 7, 2007 11:15 AM

tgusa, perhaps she thinks that potential Muslim assassins would only target her and scrupulously avoid all collateral damage, and would never, of course, try to plant a bomb -- perhaps in the car that one morning a friend, relative or loved one might start rather than her, or in a cafe or restaurant she frequents, or any other public space she might happen to be in -- that would likely murder and/or maim bystanders, some of whom might be complete strangers to her, but all of whom I'm sure she has fully explained the dangers to and who are therefore in complete accord with the situation as willing participants of, and potential sacrificial victims to, her bravery in which we anonymous posters are so lacking.

Posted by: remote_control at February 7, 2007 11:50 AM

TGUSA ...

Well, then answer me this: Should Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Steve Emerson, every pundit on TV ... should they all just stop talking???

Hmmmm??? Do you criticize Spencer for using his own name?

I have my family's total support and complete permission, particularly that of my son who has already done his six years fighting radical Islamists overseas. You think the entire roster of enlisted personnel is some secret?

The fact that I wrote the review for the Weekly Standard of "Radical Islam's Rules" is enough in and of itself to get me in the bad graces of the bad guys.

Should we all just stop talking? If so, kiddo, just go ahead and get your burqa ready and get ready to sell out all your friends, too. Maybe that's the REAL putting your friends and family at risk.

I am a widow, my son has a different name, my parents have a different name, and none of them live within 2,000 miles of me. I have an unlisted phone number and address. And my legal address is 780 miles from where I live and is not a physical address.

Unlike Hirsi Ali I haven't advertised it or drawn any friends or family into it.

And I maintain there is a radical difference between duping and exploiting people -- as HIRSI ALI HAS DONE BY HER OWN ADMISSION -- into taking riskS for you -- TO MAKE YOU FAMOUS AND IMPORTANT, AS HIRSI ALI DID -- than to taking them yourself with the full knowledge and support of your family.

Or should Robert Spencer stop talking because he has family? Or does he have the right to prevent the destruction of his culture, religion, and life -- AND YOURS -- and be appreciated for it, having taken every precaution he can? Pipes? Emerson? All the people who are trying to protect YOU?

Please try to answer that with the usual black-and-white juvenile thought process you've exhibited so far.

Otherwise,

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 11:50 AM

Morgaan Sinclair aka Caped Crusader,
You are obnoxious.
So you compare yourself with RS, SE, DP? I will answer that in as juvenile a way as I can, naw. Here is a tip, there are times to be bold and there are times to be cunning. Try to understand the difference and your part in it.

Posted by: tgusa at February 7, 2007 12:05 PM

THE OTHER THING WE NEED ...

Is a U.S. law that makes it a FEDERAL offense to threaten someone's life on the internet. Right now when that happens it goes to LOCAL law enforcement to handle. They, who know nothing.

When this happens, the FBI is also supposed to be alerted, as they are part of the JTTF ... the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

But the truth is that when I called the FBI to complain about a creep who emailed Robert Spencer a death threat, those guys didn't even know who Azzam the American is.

Unbelievable.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 12:06 PM

remote_control,
It is a tough call, do we speak out publicly and risk getting permanently silenced or do we speak out anonymously? At this point, in my opinion, if we speak out publicly they have a real target,if we speak anonymously they don’t. I believe that speaking anonymously will lead to frustration on their part. This will force them to seek out random targets which will lead to their exposure among the general public. Some people, RS, SE, DP and others must speak out and others like us must support them by spreading the word and to do that we must not become a real target.

Posted by: tgusa at February 7, 2007 12:29 PM

Morgaan -- I am SOOO relieved that you are not going to sue me over my accusing you of slander... You sound like an upright, ethical American. Your mention of Hirsi's Ali's sex life and of her alleged drug use wasn't slander or libel, it was...let's see...a brave attempt to bring Christian values back to the forefront. I applaud you. I applaud your efforts toward defeating the ideology of Islam.

Actually, Morgaan, your definition of "slander" seems more Islamic than it does Western. The standard for "slander" or "libel" in Western jurisprudence has to be a little more than saying something that the other person wouldn't want to hear, as slander is used in Islam. For example, if the intent is to give an unfavorable impression of Muhammed, mentioning that he "thighed" Aisha would be slander under Islamic law, even though it is true, and not under Western law, because it IS true. (Of course, he's dead, so under Western law, slander/libel charges no longer apply; not so in Islamic law, apparently.)

My saying you slandered Ms. Ali, and perhaps libel would be a more accurate term, doesn't make me open to "slander" accusations myself, because I am not making those accusations lightly, without proof, or irresponsibly, AND it didn't cause you any harm except maybe to your EGO (Again, something actionable under Shariah, not in the U.S.). My opinion is that you libeled Ms. Ali because what you said about her I doubt to be true. I doubt she ever was promiscuous. She underwent genital mutilation as a young girl, and, while that wouldn't prohibit her from sleeping around, it makes it less likely. At any rate it is very poor manners to discuss other people's sexual behavior, leaving aside the question of presidents and interns.

Another, and final, point. You are so sensitive to someone trying to muzzle your freedom of speech, merely by taking you to task, yet you make this veiled threat of suing me for criticizing you. Can you not see the irony here?

At any rate, I weary of this topic. I suggest you keep up the good work by sending in reports of Shariah from all over the world and writing touching letters of apology. You truly excell at those. Sincerely, your friend, Barbara Bush. (REAL NAME)

Posted by: former liberal WF at February 7, 2007 12:52 PM

Barbra, you're so incredibly arrogant ...

What happened here is that somebody criticized the new Tin Jesus for the things she's clearly done wrong, including taking aim at religious groups who are NOT doing what radical Islam is doing, and what ushers forth is more bullying to shut somebody up than you can shake a stick at.

And, just watch it, Barbra, because I am not defending radical Islam, and HOW DARE YOU IMPLY IT.

And BTW, the advice I gave you about slander -- and accusing someone of slander when they're not doing it **IS** slander -- is done as an act of friendship.

So, what would you like to slander me with next, now that you've accused me of giving aid and comfort to the enemy? Let's hear it, Einstein!

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 12:56 PM

And BTW, Barbara ...

I won't be having you or anybody else on this subscribe for me what I should and should not limit myself to saying -- as you suggest that I send newsclips and make "touching apologies" -- as if you are in a position to dictate my place here.

You just proved my point.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 7, 2007 12:57 PM

Morgaan Sinclair

I have no idea who you are except from the apology you sent to Mr. Spencer about some feud over a misunderstanding of some kind.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013064.php

In fact you have no idea who I am either (even if you state your name). You could be the bravest person ever before in the history of man and it would not change my opinion on this. You used quotes out of context attempting to paint Hirsi Ali as if she is responsible for van Gogh and his death. Those are strong statements that no one outside of you and a few questionable people in the Dutch government have said. No evidence you have given proves your statements. We all know she has made statements about Catholics that were wrong BUT that does not mean what you have stated is true or correct.

Once again provide us with the sources of these statements. In other words if you use questionable sources to back up your statements and worse put quotes up in a misleading way why should I or anyone else take anything you say as truth.

Mrs. Hirsi Ali could be a complete fake but you need evidence to prove that. Her simple lies on a Dutch immigration form are not valid enough considering the circumstances. We all know those stories, and circumstances and none are new. You however are implying by your statements that she is a complete fraud.

You need to present evidence in a clear and truthful manner not selected quotes reconfigured to prove a point. That is called a "slam job".

I don't want any apologies and I am not trying to limit what you are saying for I can't BUT I want proof if you want to convince me. Otherwise be prepared to get attacked. If you can't back it up then don't start it to begin with. In the end this is Mr. Spencer's show and his site. He will do what he sees fit. He can ban me, get rid of comments, star in a movie and yell "Tonight we shall dine in Hades" but I will continue to read his books and his site. He backs it up. He is by far the best at getting to the point. Hirsi Ali, Emerson, Pipes, or anyone can't hold a candle to Spencer in terms of getting to the point. Naming the enemies and understanding were the allies can be found. Coalition building is not easy and you have to let people in who you might not agree with to win the greater war against Islam. Mr. Spencer is ahead of most on that. So lets for once put aside the the petty stuff and yes root for the home team. We can do that right. For the greater good.....

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 7, 2007 2:03 PM

'Morgaan Sinclair' wrote regarding Ayaan Hirsi Ali:

"she is a creep, anti-Semite, radical atheist and liar.

She is constantly side-stepping the questions on her atheism, "

Morgaan - aside from hating Ms Ali with a deep, festering, personal loathing which I cannot possibly fathom or delve into, your biggest ideological and moral gripe with her is her atheism.

You use the word atheist as if it is in the same category as 'creep', 'liar', 'anti-semite'. As if it is something she should be ashamed of, and needs to 'side-step'.

An extreme right-wing religious fundamentalist like yourself (on the evidence of what you've written on this thread) clearly feels that it's okay to insult the millions of people who don't need superstition in order to behave morally and decently.

I don't want to live in the theocratic reign of terror that you dream of.

Posted by: schmegel at February 7, 2007 2:06 PM

remote_control

Lets us all move beyond this get back the bashing the bad guys...

Like CAIR and Dougie "Fresh" Hooper. You know I wish Dougie would post on this board like Naseem does. It so much more fun.... :)

God in some ways I am suprised Naseem did not chime in her normal way into this argument. Telling us how us non-muslims are weak and her Allah is strong and this is proof.

Oh well at least we are not planting bombs like the Shia and Sunni right! :)

I know lets redo the 30 years war!

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 7, 2007 2:19 PM

Morgaan: I didn't imply you were defending Islam but rather not enough time attacking it, which, from what I understand, is what you normally do. I did not accuse you of giving aid and comfort to the enemy but rather of attacking our allies.

Who on this website is supposed to be preventing you from speaking your mind? Speak away. But don't expect my approval when you attack Hirsi's (or any woman's) sexual behavior. Do you get that? Who she sleeps with or has slept with is not pertinent to this debate.

It is offensive to bring up her sexual history. Understand? Are you so self-centered and brick-headed that you cannot see that is my point? And everything else you accuse her of becomes suspect because of that. It smacks of character assassination. Not only that, it echoes one of the aspects of Islam that I abhor the most: belittling women by focusing on their sexual mores.

Posted by: former liberal WF at February 7, 2007 2:27 PM

"It is offensive to bring up her sexual history. Understand? Are you so self-centered and brick-headed that you cannot see that is my point? And everything else you accuse her of becomes suspect because of that. It smacks of character assassination. Not only that, it echoes one of the aspects of Islam that I abhor the most: belittling women by focusing on their sexual mores. "

Well put Former Liberal WF! This is my point too. Just because we oppose islam, we're not going to give up the rights that liberal values gained for us all. And one of those rights is to control our own bodies and sexuality.

Posted by: Lili at February 7, 2007 2:58 PM

remote_control.
Absolutely. Besides, who cares what the islamists think. The funny thing was I took no side, yet she came right out and attacked me with the usual leftard insults, that type of behavior makes me very suspicious.
And that is our greatest advantage greatcometof1577. And if you don’t believe me, I’ll cut your friggen head off.

Posted by: tgusa at February 7, 2007 7:37 PM

I back this woman 100%.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at February 7, 2007 11:41 PM

An extreme right-wing religious fundamentalist like yourself (on the evidence of what you've written on this thread) clearly feels that it's okay to insult the millions of people who don't need superstition in order to behave morally and decently.

I don't want to live in the theocratic reign of terror that you dream of.

Posted by: schmegel at February 7, 2007 02:06 PM

Oh come on, lighten up! Ms. Sinclair does not exhibit the characteristics of an "extreme right-wing religious fundamentalist" in any way! When did she even mention religion, other than to make it clear that she shares our revulsion for islam?

Atheists are often overbearing and quite arrogant in their condemnations of religion. Recent converts to atheism are sometimes the worst offenders and from a psychological standpoint, that is somewhat understandable, albeit disconcerting to us silly, superstitious fools.

Maybe you're a lifelong atheist; I don't know and I don't care. But I can tell you this: even if there was considerable doubt and little devotion to a religious faith over a long period of time, the transition from believer to atheist is not easily accomplished and carries plenty of baggage that never gets unpacked. People, especially those born into islam, don't just wake up one day and experience an epiphany that erases years of insidious, tenacious indoctrination.

It is common for people who denounce God and religion to project the unsavory or deleterious aspects of their former religion on all religions. Thus all people of faith are viewed as fanatics or just like the apostate's former co-religionists. Organized religion becomes public enemy #1 and on par with your comment "we don't want to live in a theocratic reign of terror that you dream of", paranoia rears its ugly head. Is Hirsi Ali's contempt for Catholicism the result of her knowledge and understanding of it, or the hatred inculcated in all muslims for religions other than islam?

Your comments were hyperbolic, to say the least.

Posted by: Susanp at February 8, 2007 2:54 AM

Morgaan Sinclair, get over yourself.

Personally, I don't care if anyone who stands up against the evil of islam is a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, an agnostic, an atheist or whatever - it doesn't matter ! We are all in this fight for our lives and our civilization together.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at February 8, 2007 11:36 AM

Morgaan Sinclair,

1. In this thread GreatComet has done some work and has shown convincingly that you have not quoted a source correctly to give its full meaning and you have failed to acknowledge the error. Why have you not addressed GreatComet's post?

2. The only thing objectionable in the above quote from Hirsi Ali above was a dubious inclusion of Catholicism together, seemingly in a miscellaneous assortment, with Communism and Nazism. Even so, I think a fair reading is that she is referring to the doctrine, the institution (its current policies and its history), not Catholics. If criticising Catholicism makes her anti-Catholic (which is what you are claiming), then there are a lot of Catholics who are, by your method of classification, anti-Catholic.

3. You've presented no credible evidence that Hirsi Ali is anti-Semitic--an extraordinary charge.

4. Why are you using the term "atheist" as an insult?

5. The claims about Ali "sleeping around" are juvenile, irresponsible, unsubstantiated, and reflect badly upon the accuser, not the accused.

Based on what I've read above, I have to agree with those posters above who question the quality and the kind of evidence you've presented. What you've done looks like an attempt at character assassination (though a botched attempt) of one of our own, someone who has the very important access to the mainstream media and politicians.

Posted by: Kab bin Ashraf at February 8, 2007 2:27 PM

Kab,

"If criticising Catholicism makes her anti-Catholic (which is what you are claiming), then there are a lot of Catholics who are, by your method of classification, anti-Catholic."

In fact, multitudes of Western Catholics are anti-Catholic (in varying degrees and shadings): it's part of the broader pathological sociopolitical intra-Western phenomenon of general anti-Occidentalism among modern Westerners. This phenomenon is paradoxical: it embraces both good qualities (e.g., self-criticism; capacity for reform; etc.) and pathological qualities (e.g., excessive, self-destructive self-criticism; cultural self-loathing; irrational admiration for non-Western cultures).

Posted by: remote_control at February 8, 2007 4:37 PM