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The pro-forma "Nothing To Do With Terrorism" announcement, which would be much more convincing if it weren't for the fact that even self-professed jihadists like Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar have seen their attacks dismissed as having nothing to do with terrorism. "Utah Mall Reopens After Deadly Shooting," by Paul Foy in the Bismarck Tribune:
SALT LAKE CITY - A shopping mall where five people were gunned down this week reopened Wednesday, as authorities tried to figure out why a teenage Bosnian immigrant committed the rampage and how he got his hands on a gun.FBI agent Patrick Kiernan, in Salt Lake City, said the bureau had no reason to believe Sulejman Talovic, who was killed by police, was motivated by religious extremism or an act of terrorism.
"It's just unexplainable," Kiernan said Wednesday. "He was just walking around and shooting everybody he saw."...
How such behavior would be inconsistent with an act of jihad violence, or on what basis the Bureau determined that this attack had nothing to do with jihad, Kiernan doesn't explain.
Investigators said they knew little about Talovic, except that he lived in Salt Lake City with his mother. He was enrolled in numerous city schools before withdrawing in 2004, the school district said.Talovic and his family moved to the U.S. in 1998, after living as refugees in war-torn Bosnia for five years, people close to the family told The Associated Press. Talovic was only 4 when he and his mother fled their village of Talovici on foot after Serbian forces overran it in 1993, they said.
"Many left the village, but only a few made it," said Murat Avdic, a friend of the family.
Up to 200,000 people were killed and 1.8 million others lost their homes in Bosnia's 1992-95 war.
Avdic said he was convinced the war in Talovic's homeland somehow contributed to the Utah rampage, especially the 1995 slaughter of 8,000 Muslim men and boys by Serb forces in the northeastern enclave of Srebrenica. The boy had been in Srebrenica about two years before the massacre occurred, he said.
Interesting idea. I wonder why Avdic would think that Talovic might decide that shooting people in a shopping mall in Utah would be suitable revenge for Srebrenica.
Posted by Robert at February 14, 2007 4:20 PM
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http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5226238
Posted by: Carolyn2![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 14, 2007 4:37 PM
Erratum:
FOR "FBI agent Patrick Kiernan, in Salt Lake City, said the bureau had no reason to believe Sulejman Talovic, who was killed by police, was motivated by religious extremism or an act of terrorism"
READ
"FBI agent, Patrick Kiernan, in Salt Lake City, said the bureau had no reason not to believe Sulejman Talovic, who was killed by police, was motivated by religious extremism or [the desire to commit] an act of terrorism."
Posted by: Hugh at February 14, 2007 4:40 PM
I'll be sending flat-footed FBI agent Patrick Kiernan, in Salt Lake City, one of my "WAKE UP AND SMELL THE JIHAD" letters.
I'm no longer careful in my writing to be thought of as a "perfectly peaceful and rational concerned American citizen." No, sir. I'm getting a little feklempt, a little fucked-up in the head from all these Jihadi attacks. I think the Feds need to do a better job of protecting me from the mudslim that's been allowed to settle in our country.
I'm bent out of shape. I'm scared.
I want law enforcement to be scared too. I won't rest until every mofo in government is as Islamophobic as I am.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl at February 14, 2007 4:40 PM
Never forget the fbi is al-bush's "justice" department.
Mueller will return your calls as soon as he gets back from his latest engagement with CAIR and supervising the fbi's CAIR-led "muslim sensitivity" training program.
Jihad is not waged solely through terrorist attacks...
Posted by: Arm A. Geddon at February 14, 2007 4:42 PM
Great comment from LGF
"FBI says no evidence of terrorism in mall massacre"
Except the dead bodies and the muslim with a gun...
at February 14, 2007 4:42 PM
"It's just unexplainable," Kiernan said Wednesday. "He was just walking around and shooting everybody he saw."...
...With people like this in the FBI...we must like stupid fools to the jihad...My GOD ..wake up..Murders are laughing at you...shake it off and grow a pair!
at February 14, 2007 4:47 PM
As a typical gun hating Australian, I may be bold enough to suggest that maybe the loose gun control in USA may have played a tiny part in this crime. Likely I will incur the ire of the USA "posters" on this site.
But turning to the perpetrator of this crime. It is noteworthy that he was a Muslim I agree. But did he do the preparation that apparently these suicide jihadists seem to do, things like shaving his body, have his toothpick ready or whatever other rituals they seem to prefer before taking themselves and those around them into the abyss?
If its established that he did not follow any of these other rituals, is there a chance that he may have been a mad person who is Muslim rather than an active part of the war?
Posted by: payingattention at February 14, 2007 4:55 PM
Picture me standing up, my finger pointed upwards pontiffically as I make the following vow:
"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
Screw the Ned Beattys (I wanna hear you squeal like a pig). Screw niceness! Screw political correctness! I'm going to bang, shout, annoy, harrass, reiterate, perseverate, and make a total nuisance of myself from this day forward.
Flyers, pamphlets, handouts, bookmarks, bumper stickers, tee-shirts.
Folks, you start telling the truth and people listen!
Posted by: Ynkedoodl at February 14, 2007 4:56 PM
"Avdic said he was convinced the war in Talovic's homeland somehow contributed to the Utah rampage, especially the 1995 slaughter of 8,000 Muslim men and boys by Serb forces in the northeastern enclave of Srebrenica. The boy had been in Srebrenica about two years before the massacre occurred, he said."
Where, oh where, are all the Jewish shooters in times past that witnessed horrors in the camps and lost THEIR families?????
That's right, there aren't any.
How can any sane mind buy this BS excuse?
Posted by: No_Mooselimbs at February 14, 2007 4:56 PM
Last June when 17 Sunni Muslim males were arrested in Canada for a plan to use 6600lbs or amonium nitrate in truck bombs to murder thousands of civilians ,Canadians got a real laugh out of the Toronto's mayoral office when he sent the Police Chief to a Mosque for a press conference to assure people that Islam and being Muslim had nothing to do with this plot to bomb building in Toronto.
The meeting had the usual bearded old men and females were not allowed to speak at the coverage , and a local TV station covered it live but pulled the plug when one know radical Imam's
went on a tirade over israel and the USA causing these young men to embrace Jihad.
Keep in mind that the whole meeting was to distance islam from the 17 arrests , so why did the Imam try to excuse away the terror plot as revenge for global oppression to Muslims by the Zionist run USA.
Thank god for free speech, it exposes these Islamists that spew hatred and promote the Muderous Islam that they claim doesn't exist.
Posted by: ala-sux
at February 14, 2007 4:59 PM
Since when does the FBI know anything about terrorism in the U.S.? They can't even keep up with their laptops.
Posted by: n.a. palm at February 14, 2007 5:00 PM
Without their very large budget, much of it for informants, the FBI could not catch a cold. I wish this were not the case but it is and unfortunately, the FBI will all too often ignore good information if it seems politically incorrect.
Posted by: pismopal at February 14, 2007 5:02 PM
FBI? How, if they know NOTHING about him can they say authoritatively his motivations??? They defy common sense and our media reports it.
I'd rather have J. Edgar Hoover in a ballgown with a feathered boa running things than whatever it is we have now.
Posted by: poetcomic1 at February 14, 2007 5:03 PM
Our only hope is that the FBI, etc. really don't believe what they (must) say but are spreading disinformation. They certainly can't be this clueless, can they?
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at February 14, 2007 5:06 PM
n.a. palm
" they can't even keep up with their laptops."
Even worse, when they are lost they don't know what was on them. This is by their official admission. Sheesh!
Posted by: pismopal at February 14, 2007 5:07 PM
Somewhat related,I hope someone will nominate the police officer who kept the gunman at bay for a hero award.
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at February 14, 2007 5:09 PM
poetcomic1, here is your answer:
Because they have said it isn't terrorism. That's all that matters.
Little matters like simple logic are irrelevant.
Exactly the same thing happened a few months ago in Seattle. A heavily armed muslim terrorist walks into the Jewish Federation, shoots 5 defenseless Jewish women, killing one, while uttering statements that are the very definition of terrorism, and the fbi simply issues their "nothing to indicate terrorism" boilerplate statements.
God damn them. God damn them to hell.
Posted by: Arm A. Geddon at February 14, 2007 5:09 PM
Go Ynkedoodl: go, go, go
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at February 14, 2007 5:13 PM
Well at least he was sent to paradise; although if he was alive we could probably find out his motivations. Just like they have in the past, the FBI will probably eventually say he may have been motivated by Jihad.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe loves
peaceful random shootings
.
at February 14, 2007 5:15 PM
Yeah, the FBI likes to use the phrase: "Lone Nut Assassin", maybe that's what he was, just another lone nut assassin ?
I feel so much safer now, don't you ?
Posted by: Jeff at February 14, 2007 5:18 PM
payattention... a plethora of guns doesn't explain away the 'jihad by SUV' that we've seen in San Francisco and on the Univerity of NC campus last year.
It isn't about the guns - its about jihadis taking the path of least resistance and being opportunistic. In America we have easy access to guns and SUVs...
Check this out if you think they aren't thinking this way:
“We ask Muslims to . . . bleed the enemies of Allah anywhere by any means. You can’t do it by nuclear weapon, you have to do it by kitchen knife, no other solution. You can’t do it by chemical weapons, you have to do it by mice poison”Abu Hamza al Masri (former British imam)
at February 14, 2007 5:21 PM
Next headline:
'Muslims fear backlash'-
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/14/salt-lake-city-killer-was-a-muslim-confirmed/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 14, 2007 5:26 PM
well it just goes to show how grateful this bosnian muslim was to America for helping bosnian muslims fight against the serbs. he decided to repay America for saving them from so called genocide he decided to go in the mall and start shooting americans.
i think maybe America is to blame for not giving them more land just give the muslims more land in serbia or elswhere and maybe they will stop shooting its all our fault how we oppress those poor muslims for not giving up our homes to them and converting to islam
at February 14, 2007 5:35 PM
the one good thing about this is that one muslim killer is dead, and he wont be out terrorizing anymore! The FBI l have lost total respect for this last call. they are more concerned about being PC, because they know the American people when wakened, would extract those islamist from their land. enough is enough. l hope the victims's families learn more about jihad and sue the government for not protecting its citizens against this terrorism.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at February 14, 2007 5:49 PM
When I visited Serbia '98 I was meet with a lot of anti american feelings. guess I understand all teh more why now.
Posted by: SalaciousCrumb at February 14, 2007 5:52 PM
A couple of months ago a 22 year old Muslim wanted to throw a "jihad" on CherryVale Mall in Rockford, IL during the Christmas shopping. He was going to do exactly what this punk did in Utah. I would bet Talovic was doing what the guy in Rockford wasn't able to do. I also feel that this will happen more often. It blows my mind that the FBI would rule out religion when there is a precedent just two months ago.
Best of luck,
MagnaCharles
at February 14, 2007 6:00 PM
A couple of months ago a 22 year old Muslim wanted to throw a "jihad" on CherryVale Mall in Rockford, IL during the Christmas shopping. He was going to do exactly what this punk did in Utah. I would bet Talovic was doing what the guy in Rockford wasn't able to do. I also feel that this will happen more often. It blows my mind that the FBI would rule out religion when there is a precedent just two months ago.
Best of luck,
MagnaCharles
at February 14, 2007 6:02 PM
I feel like I'm watching an old 50s horror movie where some Army or police officer says that the public can't be told the truth to prevent a panic. The public is then lied to and the public winds up being fried by a death ray, or eaten by a monster. Life imitates the movies.
So, Hugh they reached their conclusions rather quickly. The G-Man did not use any weasel-words like "at this time" or "so far." Seems like they have decided, and that is it.
I don't know which is worse, the FBI covering up the motive or just being stupid.
Posted by: Pelayo at February 14, 2007 6:04 PM
...and Agent Kiernan has some prime real estate in a Florida swamp land that is available only to you for a price that you cannot say no to.
HOGWASH!
The quran teaches a muslim to kill unbelievers [read: Americans}. So then another one does.
Is this "no reason," Agent Kiernan?
What investigative school did he go to if he cannot connect those dots??
I am not/was not a hippie or a liberal, but Niel Young's song, Ohio, from back in the day has a familiar application, it seems, these days...with a few words changed...: (I LOVE Niel Young!)
"Osama and Iran coming,
WE'RE FINALLY ON OUR OWN...
Feds playin'us with down-dumbing,
Five dead and they 'Don't Know'...
Five dead and they 'Don't Know'..."
Posted by: angryeagle at February 14, 2007 6:14 PM
No doubt, the FBI statement was delivered in a high-pitched falsetto voice as Patrick Kiernan is hoping that one day his testicles will descend.
Great line above about Hoover from poertcomic1 ... can I add ... even in bad drag, Hoover had more macho than any of these new suits ever will.
Posted by: LoneRanger at February 14, 2007 6:17 PM
You ain’t seen nothing yet, the gubment are importing 7000 islamists directly from al kayda land, Iraq. Yep, get ready for ied’s, vbied’s and such. So, we fought them over there so we could bring them over here huh? US gubment to American’s… you will all play dead if you know what’s good for you!
Posted by: tgusa at February 14, 2007 6:20 PM
All right you people, I know that an individual could, by error or collusion, purchase a firearm from a licensed retailer. However, in most states an 18 year old cannot legally purchase a handgun. Someone underage or convicted of any of several felonies cannot "easily" purchase a firearm except from an individual. I see fewer and fewer newspaper ads for firearms; buying from an individual is iffy. I will guess that these weapons purchased at a gun show from an individual would cost between 500 and 800 dollars. Where did the money come from? I want to buy an M1-A but cannot afford $1500. There are no real bargains gun shows.
I would be in favor of more regulation of gun shows, but the current law proposed during the last congress was aimed only at creating so much paperwork and adding more liability on the promoter that guns shows would cease to exist.
It is possible the FBI is lying. One piece of this puzzle is the question of how the weapons were acquired. I do not think that the weapons could be traced this fast.
Posted by: Pelayo at February 14, 2007 6:23 PM
Altough I can't prove it, I think the FBI knows much more than they are letting on about this case and the others we all know about. Maybe some internal memo about playing down Muslims who murder?
at February 14, 2007 6:23 PM
Please no more praise for J Edgar Hoover. He was totally lying when he said for thirty years that there was no organized crime - especially the Mafia. Hoover was a self promoting psychopathic control freak. He was also receiving horse racing tips from Frank Costello, and Hoover was firmly in Costello's pocket. No historian will flatly say that Hoover was being paid, but they will certainly imply it.
So stop already.
Posted by: Pelayo at February 14, 2007 6:30 PM
The FBI lies, the Dept of Homeland Security lies,
I know, they lied to the people of my state and I caught them in the lie. When confronted,they said they didn't want people to panic! It is their view of us that we don't have the courage or understanding to handle the TRUTH.
at February 14, 2007 6:37 PM
With apologies to the gun-control lobby, wouldn't this type of attack be LESS of a problem if the innocent civilians could have SHOT BACK? When nut-jobs like this, moslem or otherwise, know that they are the only ones with guns, they have nothing to fear. Of course, had guns be outlawed this 'good boy' would certainly not have been able to shoot anyone, after all, that would be ILLEGAL.
What if the off-duty cop had not been there? Maybe it's time we started to take responsibility for ourselves, instead of relying on a determinedly clueless government to protect us.
Posted by: dreadpirat at February 14, 2007 6:37 PM
In understanding how profiling works, the FBI is not lying in stating this is not an act of terrorism based as an Islamic suicide.
All evidence from weapon's mode, to attack, to the choice and color of the trenchcoat all point to a western style video game attack by an immigrant who just happened to be a Muslim.
He was venting anger at the community and chose the mall as a mimic of a video game where he was empowering himself on who lived and who was murdered.
His choice of allowing a girl he made eye contact with was revealing.......no Muslim on a suicide mission would react that way.
For the record, yes the FBI is playing this down and there are internal talking points to that effect for the simple reason they don't want the problem of some dolt shooting up New Falujah Detroit and setting off a Sunni Shia American tit for tat blasted on the news every night.
Consider barriers in Detriot and martial law. It just doesn't play well and incites Islamic attacks here and abroad.
There are enough "Islamic boogeymen" and strange happenings of oil facilities blowing up to condemn Islam on. Unless further information comes to light, the profile of this guy does not fit a suicide attack.
There is enough video online to see what Muslim attacks in Iraq and Israel look like. This does not profile Islamic nor does the shooter.
at February 14, 2007 6:38 PM
"It's just unexplainable," Kiernan said Wednesday.
Are we in the 21st century? I mean does the sun go around the earth. Is the earth flat!
Dam we are in the 7th century!
Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 14, 2007 6:42 PM
I am scared and I am really really scared because the way this political correctness thing seems to be going, even if OSAMA bin laden himself lands up and shoots people and say it was not jihad the governemtn will beleive it.
Posted by: Indiana_jones at February 14, 2007 6:43 PM
Deny, deny, deny, deny.
And deny some more.
The sad part is -- we fought on the wrong side in those Eastern European conflicts (for the Muslims) -- and still the Muslims come here and murder Americans.
Until the next 9/11, I fully expect little resistance to Islam in the United States. The devolution of our country has already begun.
Someone prove me wrong.
Posted by: Foehammer at February 14, 2007 6:44 PM
And this paper-shuffling ex-lawyer FBI agent is completely trustworth, right?
Complains about the FBI. Complains about not being promoted.
Knows how to work the legal system, that's for sure.
http://www.freepeltier.org/fbi_retaliation.htm
Posted by: LoneRanger at February 14, 2007 6:45 PM
If FBI agent Kiernan says 'it is just unexplainable' then how can he rule out 'religion'.
We are being lied to.
I would love to find out who counseled Mr. Kiernan for his public statement. Mr. Keirnan will you tell us?
Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 14, 2007 6:51 PM
@alaskan1000:
Now you're starting to get to the heart of it.
Posted by: Foehammer at February 14, 2007 6:54 PM
I would love to find out who counseled Mr. Kiernan for his public statement. Mr. Keirnan will you tell us?
Posted by: alaskan1000
Oh Oh Oh! I vote for....
Michael Chertoff
Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 14, 2007 6:55 PM
A 27yr Christian Serb woman was almost knifed to death in Kosovo a couple of days ago.According to
U.N authorities 'this had nothing to do with woman's religion or ethnicity-it was MERELY A ROBBERY!'
Amazing how 'grateful' Muslims are to their Host Country but I suspect any Infidel will do in a blood sacrifice to Allah.The West continues to deny every fact that Muslims have not a jot of allegiance to any Kaffir country only to the Ummah.Guess some more homegrown Infidel Deaths might alert Keystone Cops...But am not holding my breath.
at February 14, 2007 6:57 PM
"It's just unexplainable," Kiernan said Wednesday. "He was just walking around and shooting everybody he saw."...
The FBI's recruiting standards need some review. Even after the hundreds of suicide bombings and mass killings perpetrated by the followers of Islam, some agents still don't have a clue. Either that or these pro forma comments are some sort of "in" joke for those in the know.
Posted by: ivan at February 14, 2007 6:59 PM
You ain’t seen nothing yet, the gubment are importing 7000 islamists directly from al kayda land, Iraq. Yep, get ready for ied’s, vbied’s and such. So, we fought them over there so we could bring them over here huh? US gubment to American’s… you will all play dead if you know what’s good for you!
Posted by: tgusa
Yep, that's right and Senator Leahy says that isn't enough. Ironically, Britain deported 7000 Iraqis back to Iraq despite Muslim protests.
I just heard though that the Iraqis coming here to the US will not be deportable. The 7000 is just for starters. There will be more. Millions of dollars have already been appropriated for them.
at February 14, 2007 7:01 PM
Young muslim man goes on shooting rampage.
Prtedictably: the Serbs are to blame. Or, for our Down-under poster "payingattention" above, it's the gun's fault, or the loose gun-control legislation.
Uh -huh.
I've been a US citizen all of my life and have lived here all of my life with the "loose" gun- control legislation and yet have never even had the URGE to get a gun and shoot up a bunch of strangers in a mall.
But, then again, I was raised on the (RC) Baltimore Catechism which did not include chapters and verses encouraging the Faithful to indiscriminately kill. That would be the Koran.
Here's an idea! Imagine a wave of occurances around the world where people go into marketplaces, synagogues, Lutheran Churches, restaurants, etc., and cry out "Long live the Pope" before blowing themselves up and wreaking carnage. Would most of us think that religion might play a role?
Would the FBI have a (sane) opinion as to any obviopus contributing factors? Hmmmmm
at February 14, 2007 7:01 PM
Possibly of relevance:
"Celebrating the Valentine Day is not permissible because: Firstly, it is an innovated holiday that has no basis in the Sharee`ah...Christians were aware of the Pagan roots of Valentine's Day. The way the Christians adopted St. Valentine's Day should be a lesson for Muslims. In fact, the failure to fully separate Valentine's Day from its pagan roots explains why Islamic scholars and a number of Muslims avoid adopting traditions of non-Muslims, even though they could possibly be Islamicized...We should avoid anything associated with pagan immoral practices - We do not need to honour or celebrate the death of a Christian "saint" - Islam does not encourage flirting or suggestions of romantic relationships before marriage - Love between families, friends and married people does not need to be celebrated on a day with such un-Islamic origins (Ruling on Celebrating Valentine's Day. http://www.contactpakistan.com/news/news144.htm, January 31, 2004)."
I suppose this may have had something to do with it.
I think the stresses of migration may make psychosis more likely in the susceptible and that the nature of this insanity may be conditioned by the upbringing or prejudices of the madman. There may be an element of post traumatic stress involved in a refugee from a war zone. He may have 'gone postal' anyway but Islam may have contributed to the way he chose the victims of his rampage. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the majority of the victims were in a Valentine card store.
at February 14, 2007 7:04 PM
Ivan,
Some sort of in joke for the FBI ... similar to the laugh they must get when our grandmothers are cavity searched before boarding a plane.
Posted by: LoneRanger at February 14, 2007 7:04 PM
You know, its not so much the lying of the FBI as the credit they give my intelligence that really irritates me.
Posted by: A.I. Steamroller at February 14, 2007 7:25 PM
If just ONE person had been armed and brought the Muzzie down quickly, some of the victims would be alive right now.
Posted by: rude chick at February 14, 2007 07:06 PM
I couldn't agree more. The only people gun control ever helped were the criminals and terrorists. Buy guns, people, and keep them at the ready. The cops and FBI obviously are more interested in being "politically correct" and going to their "sensitivity training" to really care what happens to the ordinary citizen. In the end, the only one you may be able to count on is yourself.
Posted by: A.I. Steamroller at February 14, 2007 7:34 PM
They do say they have no reason to believe his motive was religious, they also say that they don’t know much about him so what they are saying regarding his motive is probably true, at this point. Let’s wait and see what happens when they attempt to retrace his footsteps during the days/weeks/months prior to the crime. Give them time to check out his computer, does he even have one? If not did he use the library and so on. Keep a suspicious eye on this by all means but maybe we will be pleasantly surprised at the results. But then again, maybe not.
Posted by: tgusa at February 14, 2007 7:47 PM
patrick.kiernan@ic.fbi.gov
I just thought maybe some of you would be interested in the FBI Agents email address.
at February 14, 2007 7:49 PM
HEAR NO EVIL, SEE NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL, AND EVENTUALLY BECOME OVERTAKEN BY EVIL
The FBI says they have no idea what Soulejman's motivation for these murders was, but they of course rule out religious jihad against the West. They might as well CALL OFF THE INVESTIGATION then. I'm sure they won't like what they find, neither will they be HONEST with the public about it.
I can't wait to hear them start blaming America or Israel for this.
Mr. Ostrich, ahem, you better lift your head out of the sand there's a guy running toward you with a sword in his hand.
Is that guy a spokesman for the FBI or for CAIR? I hope they got that mixed up, otherwise we're obviously not emotionally or mentally equipped to deal w/ this enemy....
Posted by: Tookson at February 14, 2007 7:59 PM
You ain’t seen nothing yet, the gubment are importing 7000 islamists directly from al kayda land, Iraq. Yep, get ready for ied’s, vbied’s and such. So, we fought them over there so we could bring them over here huh? US gubment to American’s… you will all play dead if you know what’s good for you! Posted by: tgusatgusa
I heard that news myself this morning while driving in to work. This is in contrast to some 400 Iraqis that we had over the last 3 years. I think somebody should administer the shehada to the President - I mean, if you were a Mullah in Iraq with wet dreams about Islamizing the US, could you think up a better plot than this one?
I just wish the 2nd amendment gave us all our own personal nukes, accompanied by personal ICBMs. We wouldn't have to depend on those bleeping morons in that case.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 14, 2007 8:10 PM
Not to be defeatist but tonight I feel we are already lost. I find it hard to belive that FBI (Federal Beauro of Incompetence) agents don't know the real truth. Or how blindly our Govenment advances the cause of Islam. The institutional multi culturalism that allows Islam to have "it's" way will eventually pit the security forces of our country against our citizens. Glad to know my tax dollers are funding the Jihad right here at home. Out with a whimper.
ick
Posted by: 81190 at February 14, 2007 8:17 PM
The FBI is missing the point. Many people suffer setbacks in their lives. Many people have things that go wrong, and if they are infidels, they can blame any number of people or things: their parents, their chldren, their siblings, Amerika with a K, The System, fate, the stars, their serotonin level, their cholesterol level, even, at times, themselves. Muslims however have been raised to think of themselves as a superior group, to whom group loyalty is always owed, and separte in every way from the Infidels. The universe is divided between Believers and Infidels, and a state of permanent war -- though not necessarily of fighting -- exists between the two.
When a Muslim living in Infidel lands is at the end of his tether, he will always and everywhere seek to blame Infidels. His belief-system is full of warfare. The Qur'an and hadith are documents about war-fighting, about agression, about violence, from end to end, in a way that non-Muslims cannot possibly comprehend unless they have made those texts the object of real study.
This Sulejmen Talovic no doubt felt bad. But it hardly matters if he was a member or open sympathizer with terrorist groups. He shared their world-view. He knew, as a Muslim, whom to blame. And he went looking for people to kill, not among fellow Muslims, but among those shoppers at a mall, on St. Valentine's Day (and in Islam Muslims can celebrate, can recognize, only Muslim holidays, and are not even suppose to recognize the Infidel holidays, unless it is part of a campaign to deliberately win over, or placate, Infidels).
He had the grid, he had the prism. On that mental grid, or through that mental prism, he could see those to blame: Infidels.
By refusing or perhaps being too stolidly dull to comprehend this, the FBI agents are not serving the people whom they are supposed to protect. They disappoint. And they do more than disappoint. They cannot effectively do their jobs, or alert the public, if they do not start talking openly about such things. They become part of the problem. It is incredible that those who know about Islam now have to regard the FBI warily, as in its own wilful ignorance it has become part of problem, as in some television thriller where one finds that our own security services are riddled with agents of the enemy, or those too thick-skulled to understand.
Incredible.
Posted by: Hugh at February 14, 2007 8:20 PM
Here is an article on Moussaoui from a year or two ago, and that contains the same point made above about "depressed" Muslims. But it may be worth re-posting here:
"The list of mitigating circumstances that apparently resulted in Moussaoui receiving a life sentence instead of the death penalty reads like a parody of everything that is most sentimental and silly in modern psychiatry (Karl Kraus: "Psychiatry is the disease for which it is supposed to be the cure").
What the prosecution should have done, but apparently felt it could not do, or possibly simply did not ever even think of doing, was to preempt both the "insanity" and the "on account of he's deprived" excuses, and set out clearly why Moussaoui did what he did with clear and uninhibited discussion of that book he was clutching -- the Qur'an -- and with the Qur'an, the Hadith. And with the Hadith, the figure of Muhammad, uswa hasana and al-insan al-kamil.
Did the psychiatrist Dr. Vogelsang (one more Upper-West-Side name out of Lillian Ross's comical period-piece "Vertical and Horizontal") give any sign of having studied the belief-system of Islam, without which no conceivable judgment can be made about the sanity, or lack of it, of a devout Muslim such as Moussaoui?
Why didn’t the Prosecution rebut the argument of the defense lawyer that Moussaoui is "crazy" because of his wretched childhood, etc. by pointing out that a large number of other people -- such as Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawihiri and Mohammed Atta -- were children of great privilege in the case of the first two, and middle-class in the case of the third, and that furthermore studies of terrorists had found them to be far above average, in their societies, in the amount of education they had received, and in the degree of their economic wellbeing?
Lay it all out. Explain that yes, Moussaoui, like a few billion other people, may have had a "deprived" childhood. Yes, he was quick to sense any slight, and yes, he was quick to resent his treatment at the hands of Infidels, because, as a Muslim (one who grew to be more and more faithful and observant) he knew that Muslims should be on top -- not equal, but on top. Infidels lording it over him, or other Muslims, in France, were contra naturam, against the natural and just and right order of things, islamically speaking. The prosecutors should have explained that Moussaoui viewed the world through the prism of Islam, and the texts he read, the society he inhabited (both real, and virtual), taught him to blame, always and everywhere, Infidels.
Eventually this is going to have to be done. Eventually this is going to be unavoidable, if the United States and other Infidel countries are going to continue to use the criminal justice system as it is, and to continue to rely on untrained and inexpert juries who are the products of their age -- with all its sentimentality about mitigating circumstances because, you see, the blame for your behavior can always, always, be found in some part of your background, so that blame can be passed onto one's upbringing, say.
But this misses the point. There are always people who have had unhappy childhoods, unhappy adolescences, unhappy adulthoods. As noted many times before, we who are Infidels may lose status, a job, a spouse, a girlfriend or boyfriend, or suffer setbacks or perceived slights. Did not Moussaoui think he was entitled to more than he received? Yet his inshallah-fatalism prevented him from simply working hard and doing what he could to overcome, as his brother did, that same background. Why? The answer is that he took Islam far more seriously, was far more of a deep believer, than his brother.
Infidels have a thousand things to blame. They can blame their parents -- just as many on that Infidel jury wanted to blame, for Moussaoui, his treatment by his parents. They can blame their aggressive or unpleasant siblings, their ungrateful children, the System, Racism, The Man, Amerikkka, Kapitalism, Fate, the stars, their cholesterol level, their serotonin level, anything and everything at all -- even, just perhaps, themselves. But Muslim Believers have one thing to blame always at the ready. And to the extent that one takes that belief-system seriously, it is likely that one will, viewing the universe through the grid, the prism, of Islam, blame the Infidel. And that is exactly what Moussaoui did.
Unless this is going to be understood by the usual "experts" -- including those complacent psychiatrists who appear not to have thought it necessary for them to study the doctrines of Islam and what might follow and has naturally followed from them (starting with the perceived behavior of Muslims conducting Jihad over 1350 years, wherever they were able to conduct it because of local conditions or circumstances) -- then there will be more miscarriages, with justice stillborn, the result of those thanatotropic bromides and thalidomides, sentimentality and ignorance.
And what do we conclude? We have two possible conclusions:
1) Moussaoui was and is simply following the tenets of Islam faithfully, and putting into practice the requirement that at least some Muslims must engage in Jihad (in order that others may, temporarily, be relieved of the duty).
OR
2) Moussaoui became depressed, as so many of us do, all over the Infidel world as well, but in the case of Muslims, the problem is that that depression, or any kind of emotional setback, can lead to blaming the Infidel. Viewing the universe through the prism of Islam makes one almost automatically ready to blame that Infidel, and to seek revenge.
Those are the two possible explanations.
And either one has immense implications for the Muslim presence all over Europe and North America. For the sake of the legal and social order and the physical wellbeing of the resident Infidels who created those societies and have no desire to see them islamized, these implications need to be faced."
Posted by: Hugh at February 14, 2007 8:22 PM
OK OK-he wasn't a jihadist. But he WAS insane. He suffered from that horrible mental disorder called Islam. Isn't that bad enough?
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at February 14, 2007 9:07 PM
When is Islam going to be protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act?
It already has the protection of the media, police, court system, FBI, CIA, State Department, the U.S. President, U.N., and the A.C.L.U.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 14, 2007 9:17 PM
The FBI is missing the point. -Hugh
With respect, the fbi is not missing the point.
They are executing policy, policy handed down and enforced from the top level of the US administration.
Every saic, every federal prosecutor knows exactly what and what not to say.
Not stupidity, omission, or incompetence, but by design, careful design.
Posted by: Arm A. Geddon at February 14, 2007 9:21 PM
Infidel Pride,
It’s the wot with feeeelings, we are importing Iraqis that are “at risk” at risk of what? Are their own countrymen trying to kill them? If so do we really want them here? Who cares its all about feeeelings! In court on the street at press conferences and aftermaths, feeeelings as long as we all have feeeelings it will al be ok. It is right to feel as if we are in a horror movie, as a matter of fact just take all of the plotlines from all of the horror movies over time and, there you have it, exactly what we are facing. BTW I had a bad bowling score this past weekend and I’m still trying to 1. fight through my depression, and 2. figure out who to blame.
at February 14, 2007 9:22 PM
FBI now stands for, sadly, the 'Federal Bureau of Idiots'!
If this so-called law enforcement agency's officials can not comprehend that Islam teaches and inspires its followers to commit first degree murder on non-Muslims they simply can NOT keep us safe at all anymore.
And as such they may as well turn in their badges and refund the US taxpayers their hard-earned monies.
The FBI's telling Americans that this dude was NOT religiously motivated (read: Islamically motivated )in his shooting rampage indicates that this federal institution has truly outlived its usefulness and needs to be replaced with an institution that CAN save American citizens' lives from Islamic terror (the most critical threat to humanity on earth today, leaving global warming in the dust).
Posted by: pythagoras at February 14, 2007 9:59 PM
It's not "terrorism," stupid, it's Islam!
(Directed at those who cannot comprehend that a Moslem determined to do to the "infidel" as Mohammed directed does not have to be connected to any of the neatly labeled "Terrorist" groups. A "lone" Moslem can commit jihad all on his own.)
Posted by: unicorns62000 at February 14, 2007 10:02 PM
As soon as I heard the words of, The name of the killer is classified, I knew it was related to Muslim agression. As soon as I heard, without name, he was an average JOE! I knew I would see it on this site. As soon as I heard about Bosnia, I knew. My comrades that fought in Bosnia, before I, that it was meant to be a deal dealt to the Muslim conflict.
Posted by: taowarrior at February 14, 2007 10:06 PM
Hugh, curb or consult my rage! Give me some of your Chech, wisdom, or some of the ways you deal with Bosnia. Or just let this seeth in hatred.
Posted by: taowarrior at February 14, 2007 10:11 PM
...let's see...he is 18---was in Srebrenica 2 years before the 1995 massacre...let's do the math---that would make him what, 5? I wonder what his muslim parents were feeding him all these years...peace and love, I suspect. Let's see what the FBI finds on this killer's computer...my guess is there is more to learn here.
Posted by: ujaklija at February 14, 2007 10:12 PM
They fed him 8,000 Muslims. He is as traumatized as the soldiers kicking in his doors. Thank his parents.
Posted by: taowarrior at February 14, 2007 10:21 PM
The evil that men do lives after them, the good, is oft intered in their bones.
Posted by: taowarrior at February 14, 2007 10:25 PM
Soldier to another, We fought the good fight right? We don't know what we fought.
Posted by: taowarrior at February 14, 2007 10:34 PM
Arm A. Geddon: Who says that careful design can not be stupid and incompetent??? Or that the top level of the US administration can not be stupid and incompetent (particularly about Islam)???
Whoever IS making these policies that the FBI is following is repeatedly making terrible mistakes and putting the survival of this nation at risk! I call this stupid and incompetent.
The FBI MUST tell the public the truth and deal with the reality that Islam teaches first degree murder and coerces Muslims to put this doctrine into practice. Americans can NOT be kept in the dark about the Islamic cult in their midst--it is far too dangerous in too many ways.
No more American lives should be lost because of Islam and the FBI needs to do its job to protect American lives. But unless the FBI and federal government come to terms with the realities of the Islamic cult now spreading across and threatening America it will NOT be able to do this.
US domestic policies regarding Islamic terrorism on US soil MUST be changed ASAP. Americans cannot affford to permit this nonsense to go on any longer. This is absolutely BEYOND ridiculous.
Get real.
And deliver us from Islam.
Posted by: pythagoras at February 14, 2007 10:43 PM
This does not suprise me at all because the administration is at the beck and call of CAIR and the FBI knows it.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 14, 2007 11:01 PM
Until the day comes that the majority of the U.S.A. tows the hardline stance that I've taken for years against Islam, we are doomed to a downward spiral.
That said, however, there is no doubt that this trend has begun. I can tell by the heated messages I see in greater frequency on the Blogosphere.
Islamists must believe that Americans are either vastly naive or hugely patient or patently stupid or cravenly fearful. I know we are none of the those things, but we are forgetful of history and all-too wishful in our thinking and definitely cursed with attention deficit disorder. What we need is leadership and truth from those leaders. In short, we need a reality check.
We need someone that can't be bought by Big Oil, or Saudi Arabia, or the Democrats or the Republicans. We need someone with proven authority and conviction of character and old school gusto and true grit and an unbreakable loyalty to the USA.
We may need a miracle, but I'd settle for Rudy Giuliani.
Posted by: Foehammer at February 14, 2007 11:06 PM
He was enrolled in numerous city schools before withdrawing in 2004, the school district said.
multitasking I see.. so *talented* BARF!!!
at February 14, 2007 11:14 PM
If its established that he did not follow any of these other rituals, is there a chance that he may have been a mad person who is Muslim rather than an active part of the war?
Posted by: payingattention
Listen up and listen closely: THEY'RE ALL MAD!!! I mean MAD as in DAFT as well as in just plain CRAZY. Oh they're always OUTRAGED too of course. As long as there's a SINGLE "Unbeliever" on this Earth - these MoFos will always be MAD!!
So even if all of us were gone they'd be fighting amongst themselves as to who's the infidels and who are the true believers.
I say we get them to alla-balla quickly so they can get the "spiritual" answers they so MADLY seek!
SCRU ALLA
Posted by: scrualla at February 14, 2007 11:19 PM
“We ask Muslims to . . . bleed the enemies of Allah anywhere by any means. You can’t do it by nuclear weapon, you have to do it by kitchen knife, no other solution. You can’t do it by chemical weapons, you have to do it by mice poison”
Abu Hamza al Masri (former British imam)
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses
Oh, he's an "ex-Briton"? Or did he get wasted and I missed the joyous event?! And when I say "wasted" I ain't talkin' "Surf's up, dudes" neither. :-)
They can do it by "mice[sic] poison" - We KNOW what we can do if we really really have to.
Posted by: scrualla at February 14, 2007 11:23 PM
BTW I had a bad bowling score this past weekend and I’m still trying to 1. fight through my depression, and 2. figure out who to blame. Posted by: tgusaFor #2, this one is easy - blame Muslims. You know that they'd blame you if the bowling shoe was on the other foot.
As for at risk, there are several Buddhist teachers in Southern Thailand at risk of getting beheaded. Why not bring them all over?
Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 14, 2007 11:51 PM
Lame Cherry wrote that the FBI wanted to [regulate the information flow of such incidents]: "for the simple reason they don't want the problem of some dolt shooting up New Falujah Detroit and setting off a Sunni Shia American tit for tat blasted on the news every night."
Lame, so this is what the FBI wants, huh? Well, you know what? Since they are not concerned what joecitizen wants, I'll tell you and them: I don't want to have my kid shot up at the mall.
And why is it that the person shooting up New Fallujah Detroit is considered a 'dolt'? The FBI is too busy covering things up to actually try to fathom the implications of terrorist instructions actually being contained in the muslim holy book, the quran and their soldiers already in all our neighborhoods!! ...so what choices does a dolt have? If the federal government does not protect us by AGGRESSIVE VIGILANCE against an EVIL culture, then, I'd rather have the streets of the USA a "Sunni Shia American tit for tat" than the current situation which is Sunni Shia tit, but with no American tat.
I say the time is now for tat. Ratta-tat-tat.
Maybe I too am a dolt, but it is apparent that the FBI is not concerned about dolt's families, so what are we supposed to do? I refuse to sacrifice my family's blood for allah, who though he gets a lot of blood sacrifices to him, never seems to get enough.
We the dolts are left to protect our families ourselves. And I am of the opinion that the best defense is a good offense. If the streets of New Fallujah Detriot erupt, not only is that is what happens to cultic religions that try to destroy a civilization....not a healthy way to go...and not only could I care less about muslim families who celebrate 9/11 and raise their children to hate and kill American children, but my money is on the Detroit locals....ya, the FBI probably isn't trying to protect them either. But I'll bet that they, too are dolts.
Posted by: angryeagle at February 14, 2007 11:53 PM
Foehammer,
You say,
"Islamists must believe that Americans are either vastly naive or hugely patient or patently stupid or cravenly fearful."
The F.B.I. and the Government that they serve must believe that Americans are either vastly naive or hugely patient or patently stupid . . .
at February 15, 2007 12:25 AM
"As a typical gun hating Australian, I may be bold enough to suggest that maybe the loose gun control in USA may have played a tiny part in this crime. Likely I will incur the ire of the USA "posters" on this site.
But turning to the perpetrator of this crime. It is noteworthy that he was a Muslim I agree. But did he do the preparation that apparently these suicide jihadists seem to do, things like shaving his body, have his toothpick ready or whatever other rituals they seem to prefer before taking themselves and those around them into the abyss?
If its established that he did not follow any of these other rituals, is there a chance that he may have been a mad person who is Muslim rather than an active part of the war?
Posted by: payingattention at February 14, 2007 04:55 PM"
Yes, its the loose gun controls that cause murder.
I know that this is just another case of coencidence that the perp just happened to be a Muslim. The other incidents with a Muslim driving over people in California, and into a crowd of people on a campus was a coencidence also. Loose gun controls were to blame there also.
I'm just so confused. I guess that its my stupidity that I keep linking these things together because the perps all have the same beliefs.
at February 15, 2007 12:33 AM
This does not suprise me at all because the administration is at the beck and call of CAIR and the FBI knows it.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106
The FBI itself is at the beck and call of CAIR too. CAIR has members on the FBI's advisory board. (I'm sure you already knew that though)
at February 15, 2007 12:41 AM
He was suffering from "Muslims in America" syndrome. Highly contagious. a cure is urgently required.
Posted by: Dsinc at February 15, 2007 12:50 AM
The backlash! The dreaded backlash! BACKLASH!!!!!
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/15/here-comes-the-backlash-that-dreaded-backlash/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 15, 2007 1:57 AM
It could very well be a try at finding the 72 virgins.
If he had used a backpak bomb, and killed and wounded the same number, would the FBI have another story? I think so.
If followers of islam find their attacks are not being seen as attacks and discounted (like this one has been), they will change the weppon to somthing more useful to reach the level of terror wanted, as to be unmistakable.
Thanks to the fast rejection of these attacks as to what they are by the media, police and FBI.
Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at February 15, 2007 2:13 AM
"We may need a miracle, but I'd settle for Rudy Giuliani."
You've got to be kidding me. Besides being a Global Warming Nut, Rudy has a problem with the 2nd Amendment.
Posted by: zhu97 at February 15, 2007 2:51 AM
In all seriousness about Giuliani, if he can pull it off then fine. But I really believe he will split the Republican party and guarantee a Demo victory in '08. That is, IF he decides to go for it. Giuliani is a very wealthy man. He may decide it's not worth it when the doo doo starts hitting the fan.
at February 15, 2007 3:04 AM
"I know that this is just another case of coencidence that the perp just happened to be a Muslim. The other incidents with a Muslim driving over people in California, and into a crowd of people on a campus was a coencidence also. Loose gun controls were to blame there also.
I'm just so confused. I guess that its my stupidity that I keep linking these things together because the perps all have the same beliefs."
posted by: credit man
Actually, your spelling of "coincidence" may have given away any secret about your stupidity.
But seriously folks, do we know whether this Muslim prepared himself before his actions, or not. That is the point..
Posted by: payingattention at February 15, 2007 4:23 AM
....I suspect he prepared himself by loading the guns, bobbing his head on the floor, reading the Qur'an, and urinating in the "proper direction...
...When and if it ever is revealed.....I suspect he obtained the weapons from another Muslim.....
....The only thing that stops crazed people with guns are sane people with guns.....
....Guns do not kill people...it is the people who use the guns that kill people....
....If you have Muslims in your neighborhood, keep your gun clean and close at hand.....
Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 15, 2007 6:26 AM
They would call him a crackpot even if he had Al Qaeda written all over him. Its just not politcally correct to blame the RoP...
Either America pulls itself up by its shoelaces or America is finished..
Finished from the inside.
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/15/here-comes-the-backlash-that-dreaded-backlash/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 15, 2007 7:12 AM
Several issues:
When someone commits a violent crime in this country -- a rape, murder, assault -- their religion is never mentioned, and they are almost always of some Judeo-Christian sect. Why? Because people assume, rightly, that their religion has nothing to do with the motivation of the crime.
It's different when a Muslim commits a crime for the simple reason that Muslim terrorists and constantly telling us they're plotting them -- and we take them at their word.
That doesn't mean that Talovic is a terrorist. The conflation of Srebrenica is likely wrong, because if Talovic had been at Srebrenica he would be dead. It wasn't just Muslim men who died at Srebrenica or Pristina or elsewhere. It was Muslim men and BOYS, so few escaped. Gendercide.org, which has won every possible award for educational sites, lists the Bosnian war as a gendercide against Muslim men, to stop them procreating. So whether Tavolic and his family were at Srebrenica or not, I think it's safe to assume that there's trauma about the table in their house.
When a Muslim commits a murder against people he doesn't even know, this country has a right, and, I think, a responsibility to trace down every single contact he's had to see what's been going on in his past. It will surprise me, most Bosnians being Sufis and not of a Sunni jihadist disposition at all, if this kid turns out to be a terrorist. He shows great similarity with the profile of "snapping" kids: he dropped out of high school because he couldn't make the social adjustment and had no friends. None. Quiet, asocial and antisocial, he appears to have been incarcerated in his own mind.
But it's wise and only adult responsibility to have a look at his ties in the Muslim community and see what's going on.
And when CAIR inevitably screams foul, we should just run Al-Zawahiri's last rant right behind their soundclip.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 15, 2007 7:45 AM
P.S. It's probably wise that the authorities at this point are saying that they have no reason to believe he is an extremist, becuase, in fact, they have no evidence of that.
So that seems reasonable to me AT THIS POINT. I think it's only fair to give the police a couple of days on this one. The Feds, too.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 15, 2007 7:46 AM
A Plague...
You can’t do it by chemical weapons, you have to do it by mice poison”
Abu Hamza al Masri (former British imam)
I'm starting to think the mice poison 'du jour' is Salmonella.
Check your peanut butter. Jiffy and Walmart Brand Great Value.
One of the safest foods we have in our kitchens is being recalled because it has a bacteria found in meat???
You don't have to kill people to terrorise them. Just scare the poop out of them.
Perhaps we should have a congressional investigation into how we define 'Terrorism'. There seems to be a yardstick that involves group effort or contact with a (known)group.
If you are being coached by your parents about something that happened when you were a toddler. That does not fit the profile. See, no known group.
The site ROP? has a list of terrorist acts. Maybe someone needs to post a list of murders that were commited by known Muslims (not related to the standard definition of terrorism).
Somehow I am sure that there was a directive written (or co-written) by CAIR to law enforcement agencies concerning this definition.
The is a webite called Sunlight that goes into govt. records and posts them. Maybe we should look into this.
Posted by: auntbea at February 15, 2007 8:13 AM
Hello there. I just heard something robert spencer had said to Fox News. Now, I do not know weather he is purposefully lying or weather he simply went about studying islam the wrong way. However I give him the benefit of the doubt. Note the following Mr.Spencer.
The prophet Mohamed (upon him be prayer and peace) has an accredited saying. "Yours is your religion, and mine is mine." This saying was directed to those who did not believe in him.
Also, islam favours self defence, tolerates retribution, and favours forgiveness. The Prophet and his followers only waged war on those who did not believe in islam when the none believers violated the rights of many muslims to be muslims, and ostracised them for their islam. Thus you see how self defence is covered. When Mohamed and his followers captured Mecca the prophet said to the none-believers whom he had captured in wat "What think you will be done to you by me?" Their answer was, "Goodness, for you are a generous man, the son of a generous brother" and the prophet said "Go, for you are free." Like that. with no condition. Forgiveness fullfilled. Of retribution I will post later.
Now you must note that the prophet was not raised a warrior. First he worked as a shepard, then as a tradesman, and before that he assisted his uncle in his trade. The prophet only embraced war roughly around the age of forty, when defending, note the word "defending" islam was necessary. At risk of having my neck hewed by extremist muslims, I will inform you that the evidence does not show Mohamed to be a competent warrior. Not like his friend, Omar Ibn El Khatab for example. There is a known story of a lady named "Naseeba bent Kaab" who stood by the prophet's side in one of the battles and and defended him from enemies. A competent warrior (and I say this at the risk of sounding sexist) does not usually need a woman to defend him. Be it understood that my uncertainty of my prophet's prowess as a warrior diminshes my respect for him in any way, on the contrary, it argues extraordinary faith and courage to be outmatched and still ride into battle, and for all i know, i could be wrong and he could have been a great warrior, what i am almost certain of is that he was not raised as one, which was rare for bedouin arabs, which is why it is notable.
The wars that established the islamic empire took place after Prophet Mohamed's death, so striclty speaking you can't call them the one hundred percent islamically correct. so now we are rid of what u argue is the "violence of islam" we will discuss these wars as a seperate issue. In theory, a perfect war of faith spreading was conducted thus.(remember that at the time, kings imposed their faiths on subjects, and religious tolerance was rare to find)
1-The man or woman who ruled a territory were approached with a messenger, inviting them to embrace islam if they will, or if not, to allow it to be preached in the city alongdside the pre-existing faith, and that no restriction be passed upon those who would wish to embrace islam in that city. A rejection of islam's right to be preached meant war. I see that as only fair.
2-if the Islamic Army won the city, the city was goverened on a basis of tolerant equality, where everyone could worship as they pleased. There is an annual religious tax muslims payed called "zakat" that wa seperate from trading taxes and so forth. This zakat in the strictly religious sense is voluntary. Under the islamic empire this was not so, every muslim had to pay this zakat to something called "The money house"
The "gezya" money (money payed by non-muslims) was in theory, supposed to equal "Zakat" (only fair i suppose!!) gezya and zakat money went to ensure that no one in the city was hungry or unclothed in winter or so on, be these people muslims or otherwise (equality so far). But in practice, Gezya was not equal to Zakat, it was much less!! for the following reasons:
A) Orphan Children (even those with huge inheritance) were exempted from Gezya
B)Widows were exempted from gezya
C)Senior Citizens were exempted from gezya
D)Monks were exempted from gezya
E) any of the families whose conditions were none of the above but simply could not afford to pay gezya were also exempted.
The only inequality I will concede in this system is that Non-Muslims could not volunteer for military service. And yet that was changed when Lord Salah el deen Al Ayoubi employed the Arab christian general "Aiesa Al Awam" to repel the crusades. Can you tell me why a christian would lead forces against the crusaders? Because he was a true Christian, and believed that religion should not be used for distribution of wealth among the greedy wealthy. Islam promotes a personal relationship with God, and lessens from humans judgement upon other humans as much as possible (only violations of someone else's rights could islamically expose you to rightful punishment by another human).
Islam also openly acknowledges Christianity and Judaism, acknowledges, Joseph, Jonas, Soliman,David, The Virgin Mary and many others and speaks of many prophets which God ommits to mention in the Koran merely that they existed with previous messages.
Finally, I will tell you that the "hadeeth" is a very uncertain science, and based on blatant disobedience to the prophet, since the prophet forbade anyone to write his personal sayings weather alive, or after his death, knowing that many could misinterpret his human sayings, or alter them, and so his sayings were recorded after his death with no true way of verifying each of them, and his friend Omar ibn al Khatab, bearing the Prophets wish in mind, declared that all who had written texts of the prophets sayings should bring them to him that he may verify them. When he had them all, he placed them in public in the city in a huge pile, and burned them all, re stating the prophets command that his sayings not be recorded. People then recorded them again, making them prone to MORE mistakes, and alterings. The Koran is certain because it is a linguistic miracle if you are well versed in arabic you would see that, there is nothing written yet in arabic to equal it's force, and if so much as one word is altered or removed from a koran verse, the entire verse (aya, not soura) sounds wrong and unbalanced. Kind of like a chemical equation. and although the Koran is immune to alteration it is NOT immune, to misunderstanding and mistranslation and misreading. Thank you, this was exhausting :D
at February 15, 2007 8:42 AM
unrepentant;
I can see where shovelling that much manure could be exhausting.
"so now we are rid of what u argue is the "violence of islam" we will discuss these wars as a "
Wow, all these scholarly people should have just asked you. You fixed all this misunderstanding in only a couple of lines.
I guess I never really understood how brainwashed Muslims are.
As for your last thesis about the perfection of the verses because of "the right sound in Arabic"
I guess we could use that theory to prove at least the Dinvine authorship of the Psalms in the Bible. After all they are true poetry and prose in many langauges.
I am glad you weren't a claasmate when I took logic in College.
In Christain Architecture the arch is supposed to focus God's Love and prayers. It that why Mosques have Domes? So you think in cirles?
Aunt Bea
Posted by: auntbea at February 15, 2007 9:04 AM
oh, and any replies, enquiries, will find me at yowateva@yahoo.com. I hope Mr. Spencer takes the trouble to answer this
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 9:24 AM
I'm not saying all muslims are not extremists, infact most muslims, ARE im muslim, i know better than no other. However there is a distinct difference between a muslim who misunderstood islam, and islam itself. that's for Weizman, and for Aunt Bea, well yes, i suppose you could have all just asked me :D. since I probably know more about islam than you do, being....hold on...OH, muslim :D. relax. no need to talk of shovelling manure :P whose getting violent now?
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 9:34 AM
well you think wrong I think he doesn't :D! entited to my opinion aren't I? besides, i dont know the guy, maybe he has an ulterior motive in promoting a negative view, if not then my personal belief is that he sees it wrong, im entitelled to that
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 9:37 AM
and islamic architechture is not actually a religious thing, it's more beauty oriented Aunt Bea
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 9:51 AM
Weizman :D u can think what u like buddy, and i think you're a pretty close-minded religious discreminant :D I hope you don't MIND :P.
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 10:08 AM
And better is a matter of opinion...besides, christianity started in the middle east!! Mary and Jesus sought refuge in Egypt, so its not a WESTERN art glass paintings
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 10:10 AM
And Do any of u guys actually know what the word JIHAD means?
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 10:16 AM
Unrepugnant
Suggesting that you are shovelling verbal manure is getting violent?
What do you call killing people buying Valentine Cards?
at February 15, 2007 12:37 PM
A)Jihad means effort, get a bilingual dictionary.
B)you did say western art, read your own comment it hasn't gone anywhere
C)Anger is a violent emotion, your suggesting of my shovelling manure is an angry one. Killing is a higher level of violence
Posted by: unrepentant at February 15, 2007 3:59 PM
Not terrorism ? Well the victims were purshasing valentine cardsand valentine day is banned in several Muslim countries,so can we say that the killing of people preparing to celebrate valentines day is not an act of terrorism. I cannot see this as a random act since Valentine day celebrations are so hated by various Islamic nations why not more discussion on this angle?
Posted by: mark52 at February 15, 2007 8:48 PM
sure, i agree with u. Terrorist act. now let me be clear here. some muslims have violent extreme views. MOST muslims have mild extreme views(saying mild i mean not to do with aggression). and a minority of muslims truly understand islam for what it really is. However, none of these people represent ISLAM. islam is a word coming originally from the word "salem" or "istaslem" which means surrender. Surrender your obedience and loyalty to God. To confirm your surrender, there is a set of instructions you must follow, repent when you violate these instructions and so on. THIS set of instructions is islam, and a person who is educated correctly, not "extensively", "correctly, and is well vesred in arabic can EASILY understand that. Another thing islam urges is education. in islam, Laziness of mind is a sin.
Posted by: unrepentant at February 16, 2007 4:59 PM
not literally but misusing what God gives you is literally a sin, and being lazy with your mind is BLATANT misuse
Posted by: unrepentant at February 16, 2007 5:16 PM
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