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In "Vitriolic e-mails zero in on 'Muslim,'" Elaine Jarvik and Deborah Bulkeley in the Deseret Morning News (thanks to all who sent this in) do not deign to consider the possibility that the Salt Lake mall shootings were jihad-motivated. Instead, the onus is on those with the poor taste to suggest such a thing:
On ultraconservative Web sites like littlegreenfootballs.com, the story of Monday's shooting rampage at Trolley Square has been reduced to one fact: "Salt Lake City Killer Was a Muslim."
"Ultraconservative" = "bigoted, racist, evil."
"The media did everything they could to avoid mentioning it, but it's confirmed today that the mass murderer who terrorized a mall in Salt Lake City was a Bosnian Muslim," reads the intro at littlegreenfootballs.com.
That's simply a statement of fact. Most news stories about the shooting don't mention this.
At MichaelSavage.com, the Muslim connection is a running-banner headline.At jihadwatch.org, the story begins "Sudden Jihad syndrome? Maybe."
Maybe, i.e., possibly, not certainly. But will Elaine Jarvik and Deborah Bulkeley consider that possibility, and look at other cases in which evidence pointing in this direction has been discounted? Of course not. To do so would be "ultraconservative."
The online stories, as well as Tuesday's and Wednesday's stories in the Deseret Morning News, have resulted in a barrage of vitriolic e-mails to the News from people either angry at the paper for not mentioning the religion of shooter Sulejman Talovic in Wednesday's Web edition, or certain that because Talovic is Muslim that he must be a terrorist.
See? Only angry, vitriolic people think this way, and rush to certainties where no certainties can be found. Oh, and never mind that "maybe" at Jihad Watch. Let's sweep it aside with a flood of "vitriolic emails."
There is no record that Talovic attended any of the mosques in the Salt Lake area, according to both Tarek Mosseir, a spokesman for the Islamic Society of Greater Salt Lake, or Bobby Ravish of Muslim Forum. Mosseir noted that many Bosnian Muslims are more secular than religious."Having lived under Soviet Union rules for decades, where religious freedom was not an option, a majority of these people" are not practicing Muslims, he added. "What I hear is that he came a couple of times at most, to Eid prayers, but I can't confirm that he came."
"There is no record" that he attended. "He came a couple of times at most." Even if these men are telling the truth, this doesn't establish what Elaine Jarvik and Deborah Bulkeley want it to establish. It is unfortunately possible that he could never have gone to the mosque at all and still be jihad-motivated. Consider, for example, that an Al-Qaeda manual directs operatives to "avoid visiting famous Islamic places (mosques, libraries, Islamic fairs, etc.)." Am I suggesting that Talovic was an Al-Qaeda operative? No, I am not. I am suggesting that it is at least a possibility that someone planning a jihad attack would avoid the local mosque.
Although Salt Lake City police have not yet established a motive for the shootings, a handful of Bosnian refugees were verbally harassed at their workplaces on Wednesday, according to the Utah Consortium of Multicultural Groups. Local police report no incidents of violence against Bosnian or other refugees.
Here we have the predictable shifting-of-focus which has occurred after countless jihad attacks: from Muslim-as-mass-murderer to Muslims-as-victims. Several people were shot dead in the mall, but never mind that: some Muslims were "verbally harassed"!
"Why dont (sic) you guys just come out and say this was a terrorist attack because he was MUSLIM," wrote one e-mailer to the Deseret Morning News. "There is no doubt in my mind that this young man was carrying out Islamic jihad," wrote another. And another: "Why is it that when I heard about a mall shotting (sic) I thought — Muslim? Sure enough. Are you people in Utah that clueless?"
Note the "sics." The message here is that only idiots could possibly think this way.
"He was a Muslim terrorist and you know it you deceitful, cowardly liar," wrote a man with "MD, PhD" after his name.
Why, how absurd! How could a right-wing Islamophobic bigot possibly be a doctor with a PhD!
"Welcome to my world," said Ibrahim Hopper, communications director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, D.C., about the angry e-mails. "I get tons of it every day."
At least we get your name right here, Mr. "Hopper." Anyway, note that Elaine Jarvik and Deborah Bulkeley show no sign whatsoever of looking into the background of Mr. Hooper's organization.
Anyway, the bottom line is this: in light of the fact that there have been several attacks similar to Talovic's committed by Muslims in the last year, as I detail here, and that in each case authorities have discounted the possibility. All I am asking is that the possibility that such attacks are motivated by the jihad ideology, even in the absence of an institutional connection to a group like Al-Qaeda, be duly considered. Is that too much to ask?
UPDATE: Charles Johnson also responds at LGF.
Posted by Robert at February 15, 2007 9:50 AM
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Not just your average run of the mill conservative, but the evil, dastardly, racist, bigoted, ULTRA-conservative.
Doesnt that indicate that liberalism stands for-- "Hey, murder anybody you want and as many as you want--we dont care. Just murder us last.
Posted by: guide inside![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 15, 2007 10:40 AM
This was on Faith Freedom , it deserves to be shared>>>>>
I am going to tale you another true story .
"the Japanese was a long time customer at a Greek restaurant, because he had discovered that they made especially tasty fried rice. Each evening he would come in the restaurant , and order " flied lice."
This always caused the Greek restaurant owner to roll on the floor with laughter.
Eventually the customer's pride was so hurt that he took a special diction lesson just to be able to say "fried rice" correctly. The next time he went to the restaurant he said very plainly, " fried rice, please."
Unable to believe his ears, the Greek restaurant owner said, " Sir ,would you repeat that?"
The Japanese replied , " You heard what I said , you Gleek plick!"
at February 15, 2007 10:42 AM
Keep plodding forward Robert. All who are even moderately intelligent understand that you did not condemn this man's actions as directly linked to Islamic jihadist ideology, but rather asked the simple question of whether this could actually be the case here.
The PC multicultural MSM chides you for even asking the question, putting out there this as a possibility, and that is a crime in itself, piled on top of the crime of the lost lives of those that were murdered.
Posted by: awake at February 15, 2007 10:47 AM
It's not too much to ask, but then the question is: what do we do about it?
We all have to admit that the bulk of Muslims will live in peace if they are allowed to. There is a substantial minority that will only live in peace if it's under sharia law. Many will never commit jihad, but they follow those who do.
What is our option? Do we ban Muslims from the US? Do we ban Islam from the US? What are we supposed to do with Muslims who have been here for decades and have no interest in violent jihad? Must they pay the price for the actions of jihadists?
Assuming the Salt Lake City attack was an act of jihad, what do we do now? The man is dead.
Just like with the airplane hijackings and bombings that led to metal detectors, luggage screening and, now, the banning of liquids, our most likely response will be a screener at the mall. Since 9/11, Disney World employees check the bags and backpacks of every visitor. We won't go after the root cause, only the symptom.
Posted by: PMK at February 15, 2007 10:47 AM
I don't know. The reports in the MSM were that he was from Bosnia. Why is it unfair to say he was a Muslim from Bosnia? Jihad is a possible motivation. It may not be the only motivation or the most likely motivation but it is something that needs to be explored.
Posted by: DavidE at February 15, 2007 10:48 AM
The media and law enforcement pr were really quick to whitewash the whole incident. The omitted the fact that murderer was carrying his koran w/ his ammo pack and that he shaved up before getting his goodies from his accomplices.
The half-truth thing only works for a little while. Most people around here already know the truth and are either preparing, or denying and continuing to keep thier heads buried in the sand.
The authorities stink of saudi money or fed/leftist(mayoral) intimidation, i don't know which yet.
Posted by: squire at February 15, 2007 10:52 AM
Did he have a Koran with him when he got shot? Why?
Because it sez 'strike terror in the hearts of the unbelievers?'
Its incredible how the media tries to avoid the obvious and denies the facts:
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/15/here-comes-the-backlash-that-dreaded-backlash/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 15, 2007 10:56 AM
Mosseir noted that many Bosnian Muslims are more secular than religious.
"Having lived under Soviet Union rules for decades, where religious freedom was not an option, a majority of these people" are not practicing Muslims.
...................................
The above is simply incorrect. Yugoslavia cut formal ties with the Soviet Union as early as 1948, and notably loosened religious repression after 1963. I certainly do not mean to imply that Yugoslavia was not an extremely repressive place--it was--but it was certainly possible to ba a practicing Muslim in Tito's state.
Of course, the shooter may well have been largely secular--I don't think we know yet for sure. But even amoung "secular" Muslims modes of Jihad often seem to be cultural. Often Muslims turn to these sorts of behavior in a perceived crisis.
Of course, it is possible that he was emulating Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris while going on his rampage. But it is striking how many Muslims have gone on killing sprees of late--The Virginia shooters, the Raliegh, North Carolina would-be SUV killer, the Seattle Jewish Federation killer, and our own San Francisco SUV killer, Omeed Aziz Popal.
I think "Sudden Jihad Syndrome" is a real possibility in this case.
at February 15, 2007 10:59 AM
Elaine Jarvik and Deborah Bulkeley exposed more in their screed than the entire msm with these tidbits . . .
There is no record that Talovic attended any of the mosques in the Salt Lake area
and
"What I hear is that he came a couple of times at most, to Eid prayers,. . .
yet remain willfully blinkered by their own brand of bigotry.
*****
Sheik yer'mami, your post on your blog is beyond parody. . The fearsome ‘backlash’ - condolence cash stuffed in the door.
How Monty Python-esque!
Great work.
Posted by: justamomof4 at February 15, 2007 11:10 AM
I agree with PMK above. Let's get back to enjoying our lost freedoms and if we are struck go after the root cause with both barrels cocked. Quit having diaper bag checks and breast milk confiscation and go after the real bad guys.
The "conservative" Orange County Register did mention the Utah shooting about 12 pages in on the left page little detail perhaps not concerned. Wouldn't want to upset CAIR chapter over in Anaheim. Might lose a subscriber or worse get hate mail from the most intolerant, bigoted and devisive clan among us.
How come a blonde bimbo's death gets way more press than the innocent lives lost in Utah? If Jihadist want press start with the Hollywood Square bunch. Entertainment Tonight and People type mag's would have a field day reporting the latest.. And middle America probably wouldn't care, page 12 buried.
Posted by: Infidel Brotherhood at February 15, 2007 11:12 AM
Good News is that now the people in Utah have a source for a least some possible answers as to why this horrible act happened. By bringing public attention to us ULTRACONSERVATIVES, they have even published two very worthy websites that can provide them with some answers and a lot more questions.
And that, dear freinds, is our rallying cry. Open Your Eyes, put down the blindfold and step away from it.
BTW this old 60's Hippy, raised as Democrat, but not for 20 years, kind of thinks it's funny to be called that name.
Early in the Foxnews broadcasts was an item which disappeared. His co-workers said he liked to brag about how (many or much acess) to guns he had. Where are the rest of those weapons?? Even though now they (co-workers) are saying that he kept to himself. There are all kinds of contradictions. Why did that disappear? Where did he get the guns has still not been answered! Law enforcement is hiding something here.
Some contradictions; He was a good boy, from neighbors. Same neighbors said they never saw him?? No record of Mosque attendance, or maybe once or twice. Which is it? Do Mosques keep attendance info??? How? You can't give evidence without some kind of groundwork.
at February 15, 2007 11:21 AM
The media and law enforcement pr were really quick to whitewash the whole incident. The omitted the fact that murderer was carrying his koran w/ his ammo pack and that he shaved up before getting his goodies from his accomplices.
Posted by: squire at February 15, 2007 10:52 AM
Is that true, does anyone have a link to confirm that?
Posted by: km at February 15, 2007 11:23 AM
From a posting above:
Yugoslavia notably loosened religious repression after 1963.
I certainly do not mean to imply that Yugoslavia was not an extremely repressive place--it was--but it was certainly possible to ba a practicing Muslim in Tito's state.
That is correct and practice they did. Even under Tito the Muslim villalges were the ones that were dark, where the men were sitting in the teahouses watching the brightly lit non-muslim villages on the other side, and even then you could feel the hatred.
That's how I remember it.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 15, 2007 11:23 AM
Jarvik and Bulkeley are just trying to be mindful of their readers, to whom 'religion' just isn't a very relevant topic. (sarc off now)
Posted by: Infidel33 at February 15, 2007 11:29 AM
We won't go after the root cause, only the symptom.
Posted by: PMK at February 15, 2007 10:47 AM
++++++++++++++++++
the root cause is the evil and vileness taught by the cult of islam............
how long before our governments finally realize that you can not unteach 1,400 years of relegious hatred.............only all out war to destroy this belief system just as was done with Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan.
all out war is inevitable. the only thing that is unknown is how badly America will be damaged in this war. The longer that we take to rid America of the evil and vileness of the cult of islam, the more damage that we will suffer. Nukes will go off in America. The feds have been searching for nukes since 9-11 and would never tell Americans if any have been found to protect us..........no to protect the muslims that wish for America to be conquered and Americans to be enslaved to the cult of islam.
The Texican.
God Family America Freedom the only choice at any cost.
at February 15, 2007 11:37 AM
Will there be an inquest? Will some or all of the families of the victims demand answers? Will the killer's house and computer be searched? Someone, in his family or at the mosque, had to have known more...it is being hidden, by them and covered up as much as possible by law enforcement and most of the media. Does a JW reader in the Salt Lake City area know of a Debbie Schuessel-type reporter that would be willing to dig into the story? People at a mall were slaughtered; more answers are needed. The breaking news now is that another man has come forward to claim fatherhood of Anna Nicole Smith's baby. That should be good for another 24 hour news cycle, putting the Salt Lake story further and further on the back burner.
Posted by: maryrose at February 15, 2007 11:40 AM
Arnie writes:
"Did all Germans kill Jews?"
Obviously not, but German is an national/ethnic
category, and Muslim is an ideological one, so
the comparison doesn't work. Also, killing Jews is
just one particularly heinous aspect of Nazism.
Let's play with your question a bit more.
Did all Nazi party members kill Jews? No, some
probably weren't even antisemitic, but were
"Nazis in party only", who joined to avoid
trouble, or because of family, or whatever. They
don't read Mein Kampf, and don't really follow the
Hitler cult. They're somewhat like your peaceful,
non-jihadi "Muslims", who are Muslim in name only.
Then there are your real Nazis, and they're like
your real Muslims.
at February 15, 2007 11:41 AM
Then there are your real Nazis, and they're like
your real Muslims.
Posted by: root_cause at February 15, 2007 11:41 AM
++++++++++++
and both did nothing to stop the evil and vileness....of their brand of religion.....
Germany and Japan were destoryed for their evil and vileness as will be the cult of islam in time....you can not change 1,400 years of religious hatred and vile and evil actions.....
The Texican.
God Family America & Freedom the only choice at any cost.
at February 15, 2007 11:47 AM
If they were upfront from the start, about the shooter's backround, they would not go ballistic over this whole issue.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 15, 2007 11:48 AM
Arnie writes:
"Did all Germans kill Jews?"
No, but the majority of the - let's call them "moderate" - Germans accepted a system that let the Nazis kill Jews and other undesireables.
OK. So it is a coincidence that the shooter was a Muslim. And it was a coincidence that he started shooting in and around a gift shop full of people shopping for Valentine's Day.
I am a little sensitive to that. About every other year, the mutawa (Saudi religious "police") travel around to the flower shops a few days before Valentine's Day and confiscate all the red flowers.
Apparently, Valentine's Day is one of those decadent Western holidays.
Posted by: jay at February 15, 2007 11:59 AM
Oh well, he only came once or twice to the mosque. What does that mean? You can come to a Christian Church and not fill out a visitor card.
The fact that he came speaks for itself.
Is this like--He only went to the strip club once or twice, and the porn bookstore once, so, what does that have to do with him raping the girl down the street?
Posted by: guide inside at February 15, 2007 12:19 PM
Not a great MSM effort really. I can understand how the authors might have felt a little uneasy at getting aggressive email from LGF fans though - there are a fair number of end-of-timers there who post things about the surety of nuclear armageddon and how only the second ammendment can save us from certain doom. That or Jesus.
Wouldn't characterise this site as ultraconservative though, personally.
Of course the equation of 'ultraconservative' and 'evil / nasty / vicious' etc. is nonsense.
Posted by: Alex at February 15, 2007 12:23 PM
Checked out the Desert archives. there was a story that night about witness interviews. Then there was an update... which is now gone.
Posted by: auntbea at February 15, 2007 12:24 PM
Whoops left this out of last post
Is that true, does anyone have a link to confirm that?
Posted by: km
Posted by: auntbea at February 15, 2007 12:25 PM
With all that being said, our government wants to allow refuge in the US for 7000 more Islamic nut-jobs from Iraq. If the law of averages is correct, that amounts to about 700-1000 radicalized jihadists before they begin to procreate little jihadists like the one in SLC.
Posted by: DownWithIslam at February 15, 2007 12:27 PM
I visit Jihad Watch and LGF on daily basis and agree with most of what I read, but I'm not even a proper conservative let alone an "ultra-conservative".
Jihad ideology and behavior constitute the biggest threat to liberalism since Naziism and Bolshevism, and at the rate things are going, it will turn out to be worse. That is why I'm here.
Posted by: Jan Sobieski at February 15, 2007 12:30 PM
After being lumped in with the racists by the thought screamers on this site, the question is how is noting someone is Muslim racist?
Islam is not a race of people, but an ideology.
People in the majority do not even have a command or understanding of what they are trying to label others they disagree with.....but then when they do not have the God given Wisdom to win a debate it is easier to simply throw a term out to slander someone.
There can be no debate when there are only dolts who do not understand the issues trying to be discussed here.
at February 15, 2007 12:31 PM
Auntbea do you have a link at all?
I just came across this home video of the shooting, about 1:40 in I can hear what sounds like shouts of Allah Akhbar, can anyone else confirm this.
In my opinion this whole thing stinks of Jihad.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507
at February 15, 2007 12:38 PM
Sheik, do you post at LGF?
I linked your post over there.
After being lumped in with the racists by the thought screamers on this site, the question is how is noting someone is Muslim racist?
Islam is not a race of people, but an ideology.
Posted by: Lame Cherry
Huh?
at February 15, 2007 12:39 PM
"In a state where the mainstream culture is white, politically conservative and Mo(rmon), [() added]the mystery of Mr. Talovic’s motive . . ."
from the NYT article cited by Sheikyermami
Well, the culture of Mr. Talivic's homeland, Bosnia, is white, politically conservative and Mo(slem). That's better than 2/3 the same. But, oh, what a difference those last four letters make! The "slems" interviewed are concerned about being verbally abused, and offer no regret or sympathy for the victims, while the "rmons" hold candlelight vigils for the countrymen of the killer, and send monetary gifts to the killer's family.
It reminds me of the affair in California a few years ago. Mountain lions had been placed on the "protected" list, and the result was an explosion of the lion population, and more attacks on humans. Finally, a iion attacked and killed a young woman, and the lion was killed by police. The woman left two yong children, and a trust fund was set up for them. It turned out that the lion was also female, and also left two cubs, and someone else set up a trust fund to care for them. At last word, the cat's fund had raised over three times as much as the human's. What a cock-eyed country we live in, where a ferocious, murdering animal gets more sympathy than its, or his, victims.
Of course, it's conceivable that the envelope with $20 bills was a pay-off in the spirit of the late Saddam's $25,000 rewards to families of successful Palestinian suicide bombers.
at February 15, 2007 12:46 PM
I have been watching the news coverage of the shooting two days ago at Trolley Square here in Salt Lake City. The liberals who control the “main stream” media (MSM) in this country as well as the local news outlets are all wondering why this happened. As I have seen things unfold I have been impressed with the reason why.
This shooter came to the United States at the age of nine from Bosnia. He and his family came here to find a better life. However, I have noticed the same pattern here in this local event that has repeated itself world wide.
The first thing I noticed was that this family “isolated” itself from the community, with the exception of working. A neighbor said of the shooter that he was kind of a hermit and that neighbors did not know him at all. This is what the community of Islam does when it immigrates to the West; they isolate themselves from the western culture into which they have chosen to locate.
Because of this need to isolate, these immigrants congregate into the low income areas of the West and take these areas over. The area of Salt Lake that the shooter lived in is low income and filled with gangs, drugs and so forth. This gives a Muslim an opportunity to find fault with the “wickedness” around him. Just the location that the Muslim chooses sets him up for dissatisfaction with the world around him. The isolation becomes more acute and the dissatisfaction grows; it is a vicious cycle.
As this young man grew up, he obviously spent his time of isolation reading the Qur’an. It is my opinion that the shooter found his religion and decided that he wanted to become what the Prophet Mohammad describes as the highest calling of a true believer of Islam: a jihadi; an armed fighter for Allah.
The teachings of Mohammad go on to offer to a jihadi the promise of shihad, or martyr of Allah: seventy-two untouched virgins, whose virginity is without end, as well as young boys; food and water so abundant that the water flows unceasingly in fountains. And of course this is all to be had in the “paradise” of the next life. Any war torn youth would value this reward; indeed anyone who grew up in the desert would do the same.
It is these teachings of Mohammad that allow a young Muslim to strap explosives to himself and set the explosives off without a second thought; or as was done here in Salt Lake City, allows one with all of life before him to give it all up and walk through a mall, emotionless, loading his weapon, firing and reloading only to fire again. Like so many young Muslims before him, this shooter wanted to take as many with him as he could. There is no doubt about that.
And so the “war against the infidel of the west” goes on. I find no rational reason for asking why: pattern and the cycle keeps repeating in front of our eyes. It is our responsibility to see the circle, recognize it and the threat it poses to our way of life; it is our responsibility to take actions to stop the threat and remove the cycle from our neighborhoods and country.
at February 15, 2007 12:46 PM
on this site = not JW...OK
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 15, 2007 12:52 PM
Anyone else got an opinion on that video, its 1:38 in I hear shouts of Allah Akbar.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507
Posted by: km at February 15, 2007 1:03 PM
Pictures of the shooter.
http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_045161136.html
at February 15, 2007 1:05 PM
The absurdity of those who claim that on the one hand the murders in Salt Lake City are "unexplainable" but who apparently refuse to consider the one thing about the murderer that is certain -- that he was a Muslim, that is the adherent of a belief-system that, according to its canonical texts, the Qur'an and Hadith and Sira (which offers the model of Muhamamd, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil), inculcates in Muslims the idea that Believers and Infidels are in a permanent state of war, if not always of actual warfare (there is a difference).
In postings yesterday about this event, I noted that it is not a question of "Jihad" in the sense in which some people take that word. It is not, that is, that this or that Muslim, angry about the world, has necessarily to have a particular goal in mind: to destroy Israel, to seize Kashmir and then much of the rest of India, to drive the Buddhists out of southern Thailand, to kill all the black African Christians, and indeed non-Arab black African Muslims, in Sudan, or to snatch part of historic Serbia from the Serbs. It need not reach that level of consciousness.
What happens, or can happen, and what has been happening, is this: a Muslim who has suffered any kind of personal setbacks or mental disarray will always be able to blame Infidels, and will take out his fury, his rage, on Infidels -- any Infidels will do.
That, I suggest, is what happened in this case. One would like to know more. One would like to know what was at his house, what he read, what he looked at on-line, whom he talked to about his fury over either the situation in the Balkans, or in Iraq, or here in the United States.
I have little doubt that fair-minded investigators instead of throwing up one's hands and sputtering, as FBI agent Kiernan did, that "it is unexplainable" -- will be able to reconstruct the mind of someone whose chief, and overwhelming identifying characteristic, the molder of his thoughts and attitudes and above all, his resentments and his murderous hatreds --was Islam, Islam, Islam.
Posted by: Hugh at February 15, 2007 1:15 PM
As the FBI uncovers the details of what motivated the jihadist, they'll be sharing those with the public.
Right!
Posted by: LoneRanger at February 15, 2007 2:02 PM
Mormons under the spell of political correctness: if that isn't further proof of the mainstream dominance of political correctness, I don't know what is.
Posted by: remote_control at February 15, 2007 2:20 PM
The handling of this reminds me of an incident where a supervisor asks the worker:
What is your motivation for coming in to work?
Worker answers: Money
The supervisor answers: Money is not a motivator.
This really happened. Denial of the truth does not make the denial truth. We all know the cause (sura 9 etc.).
Posted by: squire at February 15, 2007 2:27 PM
As soon as I learned the shooter's first name, "Sulejmen," I knew he was Muslim and so it quite naturally followed that I knew he was committing his own personal jihad. Hello! What a no-brainer. These 2 reporters at the "Deseret News" are PC dupes, they're pitiful.
The PC'ness of both the above "Deseret News" and the SLC"Tribune" is quite disturbing. How stupid and uninformed can they get????
Posted by: darcy at February 15, 2007 2:40 PM
Oh also, the two reporters loved putting in all the "sics" after Commenter's typos - and then they spell "Hooper" as "Hopper!" LOL!!!!
Posted by: darcy at February 15, 2007 2:42 PM
http://www.nacorp.com/NAC2/about/gen_info.html
Follow the money and find the truth. (Saudi money again?)
Posted by: squire at February 15, 2007 2:46 PM
*****remote_control wrote:
"Nazis in party [name] only… somewhat like your peaceful,
non-jihadi "Muslims".
*****The Texican wrote:
“Germany and Japan were destoryed for their evil and vileness as will be the cult of islam in time....you can not change 1,400 years of religious hatred and vile and evil actions...”
It becomes more interesting to play the “Nazi in name only” bit out even further.
What would’ve happened if “mainstream” naziism had ingrained itself into American culture? What if many were moderates that believed in Mein Kampf but didn’t practice all of its teachings?
One person might say, “My neighbor is a Nazi and I’ve never had any problems. He seems nice…”
Another, “Just because one Nazi goes off the deep end is no reason to label all Nazis as Jew-hating murderers!...Bigot!”
I’m sure we can all think of similar examples.
For the Texican:
How, then, would America deal with a similar threat that has become part of it’s culture? Modern-day Islam has positioned itself in ways that Naziism and Shintoism had never dreamed. It is like the biblical “weeds” that have grown up among the wheat: If you pull them up, the wheat will be destroyed as well. So how does one wait until harvest and pull them out together?
There does not seem to be an easy answer…
-XRDC
at February 15, 2007 2:49 PM
We need more Michael Savage's. LOTS more. Until we lose this PC unwillingness to offend, we're stuck. Right where groups like CAIR want us. They exploit our unwillingness to offend with extraordinary skill. I must give them that.
at February 15, 2007 2:49 PM
America has had cultural purges before. None of them were pretty.
-Revolutionary War
-Civil War
-Alabama divil rights
at February 15, 2007 2:54 PM
http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660195290,00.html
An explanation to our readers
Deseret Morning News editorial
This might give some of us a little insight as to why JW and LFG were attacked this way.
Seems they were a little tacky in publishing a photo without identification or consideration or sensitivity for that matter of one of the victims.
Get yelled at by your readers for screwing up, focus your readers attention on someone else. Works every time.
Today they are claiming that this poor misbegotten soul was a victim of Genocide in the old country. More than snow is getting deep.
I saw a murder when I was three and it hasn't made me even hit anyone, much less murder. My Mother-in-law ran and hid with her Mother from strafing by American fighter planes in Schweinfurt,GE in WWII. She loves America and Americans (except perhaps me, another story)
Posted by: auntbea at February 15, 2007 3:33 PM
So, which is the worse insult these days (I don't think I've ever seen either used with a positive connotation):
Being accused of being ultra-conservative, or neo-conservative?
Posted by: MarisolJW at February 15, 2007 4:22 PM
they're just mad because we don't "carry water" for them.
Posted by: squire at February 15, 2007 4:38 PM
Jay wrote:
OK. So it is a coincidence that the shooter was a Muslim. And it was a coincidence that he started shooting in and around a gift shop full of people shopping for Valentine's Day.
I am a little sensitive to that. About every other year, the mutawa (Saudi religious "police") travel around to the flower shops a few days before Valentine's Day and confiscate all the red flowers.
Apparently, Valentine's Day is one of those decadent Western holidays.
..................................................
Yeah--Keith Olberman of MSNBC's Countdown featured an item about an anti-Valentine's day protest in Kashmir. He considered it no worse than wacky--it was in his "Oddball" segment. Bearded men and veiled women screaming in rage while trampling and burning piles of flowers and lacy red paper hearts.
God forbid that there is love in the world. That would be "unIslamic".
at February 15, 2007 4:51 PM
"Bearded men and veiled women screaming in rage ..."
The cartoon protests come to mind, don't they?
Posted by: jay at February 15, 2007 5:43 PM
Let's not forget that Bin Laden has a Bosnian passport. Among many others no doubt.
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsST091901.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/binl.htm
http://www.espritdecorps.ca/new_page_221.htm
Soon he'll be able to get a Kosovo passport as well. All thanks to the lovely folks at the UN. Oh, and the Clintons.
Like Bill said, it's the economy, stupid. Fooled us with that one, eh? Didn't ya, Bill?!
Posted by: scrualla at February 15, 2007 7:00 PM
"Bearded men and veiled women screaming in rage ..."
The cartoon protests come to mind, don't they?
Posted by: jay
Oh, they're busy protesting.. too busy to work.. Let's send them some foreign aid!!
//sarc off
Posted by: scrualla at February 15, 2007 7:16 PM
Salt Lake City teacher sez,
The perpetrator was recently seen using school computers to research…? FBI apparently not interested, I smell a rat.
at February 15, 2007 7:33 PM
"There is something like collective guilt and they will have to face it all together."
Why use such a liberal device as that? A better way to frame the argument is as a security problem.
at February 15, 2007 7:50 PM
Suppose you have 100 Muslims who live in Smallville. Ten of those 100 are suicidal killers. The total population of Smallville is 1000. The 100 Muslims, including the 10 killers live as a tightly knit group alongside the other 900 people in Smallville. For security reasons, would it not make sense to profile the 100 Muslims since we know that 10 of them are killers? Would it not make sense to watch the entire 100 especially when they do not condemn the 10 in their midst.
If things proliferate and the 10 become 20, then 30, then the security measures will be increased accordingly. To whatever degree is necessary. There is no need to apply collective guilt, just good security measures.
at February 15, 2007 7:58 PM
Graven said--"God forbid that there is love in the world". "That would be unIslamic".
Thats likely the most profound observation of Islam. A total lack of love. Since God IS Love, the lack thereof proves that "Allah" is the "god" of the pit.
Late today, Fox News is reporting that the FBI is saying that although he IS a muslim from Bosnia, they see no connection to the shooting. Finally admitting it, are we!
Who did the hijacking in Spain today?
Posted by: guide inside at February 15, 2007 8:09 PM
The media, predictably, has focused almost exclusively on the sad conditions that led this poor chap to murdering people. They are not the least bit concerned about his victims. They get little to no coverage.
What benefit does the media gain from such practices? Why would, for example, the Duke rape case receive endless and world-wide coverage while others go unmentioned and barely noticed?
Who are these people behind the cameras, newspapers, and newsrooms? What is their agenda?
at February 15, 2007 8:40 PM
For the Texican:
How, then, would America deal with a similar threat that has become part of it’s culture? Modern-day Islam has positioned itself in ways that Naziism and Shintoism had never dreamed. It is like the biblical “weeds” that have grown up among the wheat: If you pull them up, the wheat will be destroyed as well. So how does one wait until harvest and pull them out together?
There does not seem to be an easy answer…
-XRDC
+++++++++++++++++
it is past time to weed...........
More innocents will die if we do not weed.....
The Texican.
Posted by: The Texican at February 15, 2007 8:43 PM
The "solution" to Islamic Jihad is sunlight.
Problem is most Americans do not know that the Koran teaches murder for paradise. They think you are being bigoted if you suggest that Islam has anything to do with a depressed, suicidal human being seeking death and paridise by killing a few infidels. It is because Americans do not know - we should educate them.
9:111 "Verily, of the faithful hath God bought their persons and their substance, on condition of Paradise for them in return: on the path of God shall they fight, and slay, and be slain: a Promise for this is pledged in the Law, and in the Evangel, and in the Koran..."
Once the problem is fully understood, the solutions will follow.
Posted by: Davegreybeard at February 15, 2007 9:40 PM
Without wishing to be too crass, "Sulejman" was all it took for me. Sudden Jihad Syndrome it is. Now, where to start? Lots of good comments:
"We all have to admit that the bulk of Muslims will live in peace if they are allowed to. There is a substantial minority that will only live in peace if it's under sharia law. Many will never commit jihad, but they follow those who do.
What is our option? Do we ban Muslims from the US? Do we ban Islam from the US? What are we supposed to do with Muslims who have been here for decades and have no interest in violent jihad? Must they pay the price for the actions of jihadists?
PMK, so long as Islam promotes dhimmitude, the answer is yes. Dhimmitude is the epitomy of collective punishment. Islam's embrace of it and the refusal of most Muslims to reject such a disgusting notion make all of them candidates for reprisal. The deafening silence of American Muslims regarding terrorist atrocities long ago convinced me of what will be required.
"How come a blonde bimbo's death gets way more press than the innocent lives lost in Utah?"
Bigger boobs than even those who sit upon the liberal's bench, Infidel Brotherhood.
"Early in the Foxnews broadcasts was an item which disappeared. His co-workers said he liked to brag about how (many or much acess) to guns he had. Where are the rest of those weapons?? Even though now they (co-workers) are saying that he kept to himself. There are all kinds of contradictions. Why did that disappear? Where did he get the guns has still not been answered!"
Splendid question, auntbea! I'd wager the other firepower remains in stock down at the mosque, er ... armory.
"OK. So it is a coincidence that the shooter was a Muslim. And it was a coincidence that he started shooting in and around a gift shop full of people shopping for Valentine's Day."
Bingo, Jay. You may well have hit upon the exact trigger for this Sudden Jihad incident. So many lust crazed sexually active infidels spending more money than this wannabe shahid will probably earn in his entire lifetime (QED), pushed him straight over the edge. All entirely our own fault, of course.
"Well, the culture of Mr. Talivic's homeland, Bosnia, is white, politically conservative and Mo(slem). That's better than 2/3 the same."
ebonystone, you left out “polygamy”.
"Because of this need to isolate, these immigrants congregate into the low income areas of the West and take these areas over. The area of Salt Lake that the shooter lived in is low income and filled with gangs, drugs and so forth. This gives a Muslim an opportunity to find fault with the “wickedness” around him. Just the location that the Muslim chooses sets him up for dissatisfaction with the world around him. The isolation becomes more acute and the dissatisfaction grows; it is a vicious cycle."
NraFreedom, this is why I refer to Muslims as; "Skinless people living in a sandpaper world." The almost legendary ability for "Muslim sensibilities" to be offended by the slighest whif or even a ratfart of infidel culture will forever be their excuse for even the most savage atrocities. How long we put up with it is entirely up to us. My limits were reached upon imact with the World Trade Center.
"What happens, or can happen, and what has been happening, is this: a Muslim who has suffered any kind of personal setbacks or mental disarray will always be able to blame Infidels, and will take out his fury, his rage, on Infidels -- any Infidels will do."
SPOT ON, Hugh! I'm taking a major liking to the consistent quality of your posts. Again, skinless people in a sandpaper world. Islam's abject refusal to take an iota of responsibility for their lack of progress and self-imposed misery will forever serve as justification for the very worst of atrocities. That is, until the West finally delivers its rebuttal. After that, only a little Windex will be needed to clean up the mess known as Islam.
"Until we lose this PC unwillingness to offend, we're stuck. Right where groups like CAIR want us. They exploit our unwillingness to offend with extraordinary skill. I must give them that."
Nocturna, I’m willing to be incredibly offensive, if that’s what it takes to protect America from this insidious threat. Political Correctness be damned. George Orwell’s Newspeak can barely hold a candle to Political Correctness (even though they are one in the same).
at February 15, 2007 10:35 PM
Well, it appears the Salt Lake regional Online Muslim Forum of Utahis updating it's taqiyya . . .
PRESS RELEASE: Trolley Square Shooting Not Related to Islam & Muslims 2/14/07 The tragic Trolley Square Shooting that happened recently was not related to Islam and Muslims. Our hearts go out to the families that were hurt in this event. The people hurt and killed could have been our own families and friends that attend the nearby Mosque, so we are happy that the perpetrator was killed before he could hurt anybody else in the community. Our Bosnian contacts in the community say that Sulejman Talovic, an 18 year old high school drop out and Bosnian immigrant, was a young man who lived a hermit type of lifestyle. Political terrorism is not a factor, given his lifestyle and lack of adherence to Islam.
He was not known to have been religious, but infact secular in nature and never attended any of the local Mosques and did not associate with the community.
Even if he had been religious, that does not represent the community, because his actions were anti-Muslim and hurt Muslims more than anybody. Some say he was from a gypsy background. There are alot of American, Mexican, African-American, Bosnian, Somalian, Saudi, Arab, Afghani, Turkish, Iraqi, Lebanese, Jordanian, Palestinian Pakistani, Persian, Iranian and other youth that are secular and drink alcohol, fornicate, gamble, and go to clubs in Utah. They are not representative of the overall Muslim community within Utah or abroad. If he was from a non-Muslim background, his faith would never have been mentioned in the news and media. sltrib article
The bold portion above totally contradicts the unattributed statements made to/ by someone at CBSnews
Sulejman Talovic quit school at 16, but had continued to attend Friday prayers at a Salt Lake City mosque until December, when he got a job under pressure from his father.Posted by: justamomof4
at February 15, 2007 10:38 PM
"The "solution" to Islamic Jihad is sunlight."
Davegreybeard, in the famous and prescient words of Louis Brandeis:
"Sunlight is the best disinfectant."
Posted by: Zenster at February 15, 2007 10:50 PM
"Even if he had been religious, that does not represent the community, because his actions were anti-Muslim and hurt Muslims more than anybody. Some say he was from a gypsy background. There are alot of American, Mexican, African-American, Bosnian, Somalian, Saudi, Arab, Afghani, Turkish, Iraqi, Lebanese, Jordanian, Palestinian Pakistani, Persian, Iranian and other youth that are secular and drink alcohol, fornicate, gamble, and go to clubs in Utah. They are not representative of the overall Muslim community within Utah or abroad."
from the reply from the Online Muslim Forum
What a lot of howlers in one paragraph! "He hurt muslims more than anybody" -- Were any of his victims, dead or wounded, moslem? Not one word in the reports suggests that any were.
Then note the slur about the gypsies -- what a nasty, racist remark! Will there be any demands for apologies to the "gypsy-American community"? Then look at all these "youth" from various islamic backgrounds that are secular, and drink. I guess that means they are deserting the ROP in droves in Utah. That at least is good news.
at February 15, 2007 11:17 PM
Nocturna, I’m willing to be incredibly offensive, if that’s what it takes to protect America from this insidious threat. Political Correctness be damned. George Orwell’s Newspeak can barely hold a candle to Political Correctness (even though they are one in the same).
Posted by: Zenster
Zenster, are you quite sure about that? I'll take you at your word here at this safe and comfortable place to post comments. The real test for all of us though is what we actually do when we walk out of the front door in the morning. I would like to actually start organizing people to take positive political action. Something like an anti-CAIR organization.
I do think you are serious. Hope so.
btw, it's "one and the same". :)
at February 16, 2007 12:06 AM
"Even if he had been religious, that does not represent the community, because his actions were anti-Muslim and hurt Muslims more than anybody."
EbonyStone I was going to say the very same thing. he hurt "moslems more than anybody" - W>H>A>T>?????
How many D>E>A>D> moslems???
oh but all he shot was six dhimmis so he hurt moslems more than anyone. After all dhimmis should expect this kind of treatment from the islamischer Herrenmenschen!!
SHIT UPON THAT!!!
MOSLEMZ OUTTTT!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: scrualla at February 16, 2007 12:11 AM
Nocturna, I’m willing to be incredibly offensive, if that’s what it takes to protect America from this insidious threat. Political Correctness be damned. George Orwell’s Newspeak can barely hold a candle to Political Correctness (even though they are one in the same).
Posted by: Zenster
I understand the sentiment and share it. I would prefer to be incredibly effective and the two don't always go togeather.
Posted by: Davegreybeard at February 16, 2007 1:24 AM
Haq announced, “I’m a Muslim American; I’m angry at Israel,”
A Mulim-American? No such animal. Oh, you can get citizenship as a Moslem, but you're either a Moslem or you're an American. You can swear allegiance to the Constitution or to the koran. Not to both. They don't mesh.
As for "conservatives" being the only ones who connect the dots: random shooting of infidels=Moslem shooter, I'm not a conservative, far from it--I have nothing to conserve--nothing material that is. I do wish to conserve our freedoms, limited as they are (Moslem-sucking government).
I ask myself though, every time there is a random shooting at a mall, at a cross-roads, or gas station: is it a Moslem? 99.91% it is. Not a "terrorist?" Give me a break! He is doing what Mohammed told 'em to do. Call it what you will, I call it a Moslem doing what he was taught to do by the koran. Don't matter whether he's Bosniak, Iranian, "American-Moslem," Pakistani, whatever. It's a Mohammedan near every time.
Posted by: unicorns62000 at February 16, 2007 1:24 AM
"There is no record that Talovic attended any of the mosques in the Salt Lake area"
Kind of makes you think why this is said, would he have killed more if he was there every week? Why bring up the mosque?
Fact is, if islam is outlawed here, it is possable he would not have been here to commit the act in the first place. Lets start thinking aboutthis, stop bringing the followers of islam into this country.
Also ,the death toll may not be yet final. One(fifteen year old) victim had brain surgery, and is critical. He has woke up and asked about his father, and has not been told he was killed by the gunshots. Another mother who was shot is also in serious condition, and her fifteen year old daughter was one of those killed.
Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at February 16, 2007 2:05 AM
I just saw the tape on ABC of the SLC shootings and it sounded very much to me like I heard the chant "Allahu akbar" twice. I know Charles disagrees, but I don't think he's right on this one. Maybe it's echoes.
Prophet Geoff
Posted by: Geoff at February 16, 2007 2:16 AM
Um, relax, Robert. I think you overreacted this time to one aspect of the article you quoted. (Hey, that's MY job, didn't you know?)
The (sic)'s that were quoted went with spelling errors "dont" rather than "don't" and "shotting" rather than "shooting". This is normal practice and usage.
Aside from that - he is apparently Mohammedan. That suggests his going into an apparent jihadi mode is suspect. But it is ONLY suspect. The Deseret Morning News is derelict in its duties to inform the public because it failed to discuss this issue presenting what scanty information is known.
Finally, from an FBI standpoint it MAY be effective to deny a jihad related operation here simply to leave any possible connection lulled into complacency while it is being hunted down. It also does serve to keep the public from overreacting. After all, the overreactions do fuel the Hooper-mania, doesn't it?
JD
Posted by: jdow at February 16, 2007 4:20 AM
Geoff I agree, it cetrainly sounds like there are shouts of Allah Akbar within video taken during the shooting.
Anyone else got an opinion on that video, its 1:38 in I hear shouts of Allah Akbar.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507
at February 16, 2007 4:21 AM
Finally, from an FBI standpoint it MAY be effective to deny a jihad related operation here simply to leave any possible connection lulled into complacency while it is being hunted down. It also does serve to keep the public from overreacting. After all, the overreactions do fuel the Hooper-mania, doesn't it?
I guess I just don't get this. What form of over-reaction are we worried about? Demonstrations? Public comments? Letters to the Editor? Violence?
Does anyone here really believe this verbal harassment story?
Although Salt Lake City police have not yet established a motive for the shootings, a handful of Bosnian refugees were verbally harassed at their workplaces on Wednesday, according to the Utah Consortium of Multicultural Groups. Local police report no incidents of violence against Bosnian or other refugees.
I would love to see CAIR and the "Utah Consortium of Multicultural Grouls" produce the victims when they make these claims.
Maybe it's the lack of public reaction that we should be worried about.
Posted by: Extraneus at February 16, 2007 8:56 AM
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