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In "Playing with fire" in The Guardian, Dan Glaister reduces himself to vilifying Charles Johnson and me for asking politically incorrect questions, and demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy of his position by offering no arguments against the questions we have raised. Just sneers.
"Salt Lake Jihad?" asks David Horowitz's conservative Frontpagemag.com. The question refers not to some Latter Day Saints-Osama Bin Laden merger but rather to speculation about the shootings at the Trolley Square shopping mall in Salt Lake City on Monday. While much has emerged about the shootings, and about the shooter's family background in Bosnia, the conservative blogosphere, such as it is, is awash with suggestions that the mainstream (as in, liberal) media has deliberately suppressed the fact that Sulejman Talovic, the 19-year-old perpetrator, was Muslim.
"Conservative" = evil. "Such as it is" = insignificant -- albeit apparently significant enough for a full denunciation in The Guardian. "Suggestions": i.e., not statements, and in fact just questions, but never mind. They were the wrong questions.
Glaister goes on to denounce Little Green Footballs for noting that the media did not report the Salt Lake killer's Islamic faith, and parrots many of the charges made in the Deseret Morning News. Then he has the decency to quote Charles Johnson's explanatory note, but not approvingly:
"Please note," wrote LGF's Charles Johnson, "I have not expressed any opinion on whether the mall attack was an act of jihad, personal or otherwise. I've raised the issue, with good reason. But I have deliberately refrained from expressing a conclusion, because we obviously do not know enough at this point to do that."I have come to the conclusion, however, that the media are doing everything possible to hide connections to Islam in cases like this. It's an absolutely predictable pattern, and they do it every time."
His view was echoed on the mildly-named Jihadwatch, plaything of writer Robert Spencer. "The bottom line is this," he wrote, "in light of the fact that there have been several attacks similar to Talovic's committed by Muslims in the last year ... and that in each case authorities have discounted the possibility. All I am asking is that the possibility that such attacks are motivated by the jihad ideology, even in the absence of an institutional connection to a group like al-Qaida, be duly considered. Is that too much to ask?"
Spencer even addresses the contention that Talovic had not attended a mosque.
"It is unfortunately possible that he could never have gone to the mosque at all and still be jihad-motivated. Consider, for example, that an al-Qaida manual directs operatives to 'avoid visiting famous Islamic places (mosques, libraries, Islamic fairs, etc)'."Back in the real world, concern was evident for members of Utah's Bosnian community. While there were accounts of threats against Bosnians in local papers, none were reported to police. But the incident - both the shooting and the atmosphere in its aftermath - prompted Bosnia's ambassador to the US, Bisera Turkovic, to visit the city to express sorrow and to talk about some of the trauma that many of the refugees living in Salt Lake went through before they arrived in Utah.
"Mildly-named Jihadwatch"? So it isn't even permissible, as far as The Guardian is concerned, even to monitor jihadist activity? "Plaything" = not a serious endeavor, such as that of the clearly high-minded Mr. Glaister.
Anyway, I'm sorry, Mr. G., but I still don't understand what's wrong with the questions I asked above, and I fail to see how your following them with "back in the real world" makes clear what's wrong with them. Does the Al-Qaeda manual I quoted not exist because Glaister said "back in the real world"? Does the possibility that Talovic, like Taheri-azar and all the others, was a lone jihadist disappear because Glaister said "back in the real world"? Besides the utter vacuity of Glaister's response to what Charles and I wrote, note also the familiar shift of focus: once again, we see an attempt to deflect attention away from crimes committed by a Muslim and onto Muslims as putative victims -- although no actual threats "were reported to police."
That meeting at the Bosna restaurant, with reporters, the mayor and local police chiefs, produced a more moderate message: of understanding and tolerance."I will not allow my officers to profile individuals because of race," said Salt Lake police chief Chris Burbank. "We are not profiling a community because of their race." Burbank added that there's no place for "fear and hatred and mistrust of others based solely on their race, their nationality, what language they may speak, or what religious preference they may have. That's very dangerous for police to wander into. I think it's dangerous for society."
I suppose Dan Glaister considers that quote the coup de grace, but it actually reveals his complete intellectual muddle. Of course the jihad is not a race, but an ideology that is held by people of all races. However, that is not the end of the muddles here: Burbank is talking about racial profiling in a case involving not an Arab, but a white European, a Bosnian Muslim. Burbank is so hopelessly mired in political correctness that he cannot even discuss religious profiling directly long enough to dismiss it. He has to disavow it in terms of racial profiling, which has no conceivable place in this case, sneaking it in after race, nationality, and language.
And Glaister proudly repeats his words, thinking himself broad-minded and tolerant all the while, when all he has really done is parrot Leftist platitudes upon which he has clearly not reflected.
UPDATE: Charles weighs in:
Do you notice anything missing from this limp-wristed attack? For example, a counter-argument? People like Glaister think it’s sufficient to simply quote statements and point disapprovingly. Why strain his logical faculties? All decent people will automatically agree with him, after all.
Read it all.
Posted by Robert at February 17, 2007 3:20 AM
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Excellent! They've noticed you both and you're pi**ing them off.
Incidentally, The Grauniad is the paper that is so gullible it had a hizb ut-tahir journalist working for them and didn't even know the significance of that group!
He was only fired after assorted groups pointed out that hizb ut-tahir's position on gay rights, women's issues etc was not consistent (to put it mildly) with The Grauniad's self righteous posing.
PS- In case anyone is wondering, The Grauniad is a spelling referring to the numerous spelling mistakes that littered The Guardian before the advent of computer spell checkers. To be fair, it was probably the type setters. :-)
Posted by: Celsius![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 17, 2007 5:29 AM
On the delightful hizb ut-tahir website,
the News Watch section links to the Guardian in 6 from 15 of its stories which indicates how pro islam they find it. Similarly, The Independent has 4 from 15 links.
Nice to know who views these papers as allies.
Posted by: Celsius at February 17, 2007 5:37 AM
Al Guardian long ago made it clear exactly whose side they are on.
Big Clue: It ain't ours.
From within their morass of self-loathing, the BBC, Reuters and most other major newsgathering organizations have, more or less, openly declared war upon Western civilization. Their blatant anti-Semitism and abject hatred of Christianity so completely distorts nearly every single article they publish that it is no longer worthwhile to read anything they release.
When the West finally wakes up and realizes just how badly it has been lulled into an unsuspecting torpor by these journalistic traitors, many of them will deservingly decorate the lamp posts that line our streets. The left's intensely racist elitism, so carefully disguised as multicultural tolerance for their own select few pet causes will most likely find them slots reserved on more than a few of those same street lights.
Posted by: Zenster at February 17, 2007 5:45 AM
"So it isn't even permissible, as far as The Guardian is concerned, even to monitor jihadist activity?"
But of course, Mr. Spencer. If the answer might be detrimental to their position, then the question must be suppressed. They who've dared to ask the question must be silenced, marginalized, demonized.
"Don't confuse me with your facts and logic, my mind is made up!" -- Origin unknown.
at February 17, 2007 5:50 AM
First of all, as an American, I seem to recall that we kicked the Brits out of our affairs over 200 years ago!
When he dismisses Robert et all, he also dismisses those of us who were NOT asking for the investigation of every Bosnian Muslim in SLC but the investigation, in the manner we are accustomed to expect, of THIS murder!
Personally I think it's those numbers at the bottom of the page which are worrying these journalistic twits.
I am so tired of seeing what passes for journalism today where a totally insufficent number of facts are turned into a conclusion or an opinion. I prefer the opinions to be labelled as such.
It reminds me of an excercise that teachers did when I was in High School were the teacher "proved" the Moon was made of green cheese using readily available "facts", I didn't buy it then and don't intend to buy it now.
I am sorry, but I do not feel a lot of sympathy for a group of people (Muslims) in any part of our country who keep themselves apart from the community and then blame that community for ostracising them and thus giving them an excuse to commit crimes against us.
I can count many immigrants in my family history and not one of them ever used the excuse of something that happened to them in the "Old Country" to commit MURDER.
Aunt Bea
at February 17, 2007 7:03 AM
demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy of his position
In more ways than one, I would add.
That meeting at the Bosna restaurant, with reporters, the mayor and local police chiefs, produced a more moderate message: of understanding and tolerance.
Always, the thrust of these meetings calling for “multidimensional understanding” with law enforcement(Sensitivity training), govt. officials, and assorted gullible fools, the message is: "We" are to 'understand' and 'tolerate' islam in all its manifest forms, including murder.
Imagine trying that in their house, say in Saudi Arabia.
The entire ideology of islam is structured on the two realms of believers vs. non-believers. Dar al-islam (house of peace) vs. Dar al-harb (house of perpetual war).
But be careful exposing this around folks like Dan Glaister in his supposed 'real world' . . .they're a bit sensitive in that place.
Posted by: justamomof4 at February 17, 2007 7:36 AM
And Glaister proudly repeats his words, thinking himself broad-minded and tolerant all the while, when all he has really done is parrot Leftist platitudes upon which he has clearly not reflected
Indeed, where is the concern for the background of the individual actual VICTIMS of the Trolley Square shopping mall shooter displayed by this pompous ass?
I wish to state who the REAL victims are so we can pray for their families:
Jeffrey Walker 52
Viewing: Country Park Stake Center
11400 South 2447 West
Saturday, 10:30 - 11:30 a.m.
Funeral: To follow at noon.
Vanessa Quinn 29
Funeral: Larkin Mortuary, Sandy
1950 East 10600 South
Friday, 3:00 p.m.
Kirstin Hinkley 15
Funeral: LDS Chapel (across from Brighton High School)
2030 East Bengal Blvd.
Teresa Ellis 29
Funeral pending in Jamestown, N.Y.
Brad Frantz 24
Viewing: Mountainview Memorial
3115 E. 7800 South in Cottonwood Heights
Saturday, 12:30 p.m.
Funeral: Follows at 3 p.m.
Many others were wounded. Carolyn Tuft, 44, is in critical condition. Jeffrey Allen Walker, 16, is in serious condition. Also injured were Stacy Hansen and Shawn Munns.
Of the nine shooting victims, four are related. A mother lost her daughter, and a son lost his father.
Jeffrey Walker, 42, was at Trolley Square with his son A.J. They had just finished shopping for Valentine's Day. The two walked out of the mall and became the first victims of the shooting. A.J is in serious condition. Jeffrey, his father, was killed.
Posted by: justamomof4 at February 17, 2007 8:03 AM
Robert, you are getting all kinds of free advertising out of this.
Book list link would be useful for all the New readers.
If people are wondering what all the Hoop(er)-La is all about, it behooves us to give them some real Real World info so they can make their own decisions about the Religion of Peace.
Posted by: auntbea at February 17, 2007 8:04 AM
quote
"I will not allow my officers to profile individuals because of race," said Salt Lake police chief Chris Burbank. "We are not profiling a community because of their race." Burbank added that there's no place for "fear and hatred and mistrust of others based solely on their race, their nationality, what language they may speak, or what religious preference they may have. That's very dangerous for police to wander into. I think it's dangerous for society."
end quote
As Robert points out, this chief is confused.
This is why we need a questionnaire. The multiculti chiefs want to reduce the argument to a single word, bigot. They want to scream racist. This is their stifle word. They want to stifle the discussion.
The questionnaire starts asking about how women should be treated. Should they choose their husband. Its much harder to shout bigot at those who advocate choice for women, choice of husband.
Its hard to say you are pro choice on abortion but anti-choice on who the father is.
The questionnaire allows these comparisons which teach the absurdity and self destruction of liberalism.
Posted by: Old Atlantic at February 17, 2007 8:12 AM
"But the incident - both the shooting and the atmosphere in its aftermath - prompted Bosnia's ambassador to the US, Bisera Turkovic, to visit the city to express sorrow and to talk about some of the trauma that many of the refugees living in Salt Lake went through before they arrived in Utah".
Incident? Five people were killed, a number wounded. This guardian writer smokes pot or he takes prescription medications for depression. That's what is talking. People who take drugs, prescription or otherwise, often have this bizarre way of thinking. I also detect a good deal of jealously in this Guardian writer.
I'll bet I'm right re this opiner.
at February 17, 2007 8:19 AM
The Guardian deigns to notice the existence of Jihadwatch. Well, well. Keep up the good work Mr. Spencer, Mr. Fitzgerald, and company. You are opening minds and changing opinions. The Guardian seeks to close minds and shut down opinions that differ from their own. In the classic leftist totalitarian vision, they want to force everyone to be "good", "good" as defined by them of course.
Posted by: Mentat at February 17, 2007 8:30 AM
In a backhanded way, this is very good news! The stupid, suicidal Guardian is on the side of the enemy. Always has been. If they feel it necessary to attack this website, it must mean they feel a need to silence it. Therefore, this website must be having a real effect and doing some real damage to the islamics. Good work, Robert! Keep hammering away! Maybe islam will really be defeated and vanquished after all.
Posted by: A.I. Steamroller at February 17, 2007 8:44 AM
Re Mr. Incident
Robert-
Fellows like you have a clear head and probably the only drug you take is an occasional aspirin or a glass of beer. But a lot of people like this Guardian guy are on antidepressants and probably smoke pot too. There are drugs taking with this fellow. The antidepressants produce a bizarre pattern of thought. I detect that with him. He's got some serious problems. He's a nasty little man-jealous, and has the need for anti-depressants for good reason. He's detached from reality.
--------------
Dump the antidepressants, Dan. Your pattern of thinking is bizzare. Don't cover-up with a sneer. Get off the drugs.
Posted by: Frank at February 17, 2007 8:46 AM
Celsius:
Incidentally, The Grauniad is the paper that is so gullible it had a hizb ut-tahir journalist working for them and didn't even know the significance of that group!He was only fired after assorted groups pointed out that hizb ut-tahir's position on gay rights, women's issues etc was not consistent (to put it mildly) with The Grauniad's self righteous posing.
This seems like a worthwhile approach. Get them on record about their views on women, gays, Jews, etc. -- or make them profess a literal belief in the Koran, which can be quoted as necessary, thanks to Robert's books -- and then attack them with the same PC weapons they've been able to use so effectively. Once these weapons are taken away from them, they can be weakened considerably.
Posted by: Extraneus at February 17, 2007 9:04 AM
"...there's no place for "fear and hatred and mistrust of others based solely on their race, their nationality, what language they may speak, or what religious preference they may have."
Tell that to the MUSLIMS all over the world!
THEY are the ones spawning violence, fear and hatred based solely on their RELIGIOUS PREFERENCE.
Posted by: PMK at February 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Another PC battle concludes in predictable fashion:
University of Illinois to Drop Controversial Chief Iliniwek Mascot
Why not future headlines like "Wisconson Mosque's Building Permit Rejected for Refusal to Admit Women, Gays"?
Posted by: Extraneus at February 17, 2007 9:17 AM
PMK-
That falls on deaf ears. This guy is on antidepressants. I've seen this pattern of thought with people on anti-depressants or heavy pot smokers. I detect serious problems with this guy. There is something wrong with him. He's on the edge. The Guardian should fire this guy and give his job to some smart working class guy.
Posted by: Frank at February 17, 2007 9:18 AM
The Guardian does not come off well, and one hopes that some of its readers, the sane ones, will be able to detect through the nonsense and fog a reality of which they themselves have by now become more than dimly aware, which means that it is now painful for them to have to endure so much of the very newspaper they continue to think they must read. Perhaps some of those people will actually dare to seek out Jihad Watch, and read not only what is up today, or tomorrow, but look at the archived material, and the articles. They will discover, perhaps to their own secret surprise, that this site is not loyally supporting the "war against terror" (Iraq Division) to bring "freedom" to "ordinary moms and dads in the Middle East" and they may then look around further, and see that common sense apparently is more in evidence here, than it is in the article of Dan Glaister, or the muddlements of Salt Lake City police chief Dan Burbank, with his confusion of categories, and his complete miscomprehension (the statement above cries out for his prompt discharge: intelligent people need to be put in charge of police forces, not dopes. And he's apparently a dope.)
Posted by: Hugh at February 17, 2007 9:19 AM
Hugh-
The ignorant are a big problem, and some dumbbells are there, but that can be remedied by education, by study and by replacing the dopes with people with common sense. But the far worse problem are these Glaister , Armstrong, Esposito types. I'm convinced many of them are on prescription medications. They are often detached from reality and have a bizarre pattern of thinking. It is something to consider when trying to figure them out. I think I'm perceptive on this.
Posted by: Frank at February 17, 2007 9:36 AM
If the Guardian is indignant about Jihad Watch and LGF, they'll go ballistic about the 16 Feb. piece "Sudden Jihad Syndrome" in that ultra radical publication INVESTOR‘S BUSINESS DAILY.
Posted by: songdongnigh at February 17, 2007 9:49 AM
This leaves no doubts that the secular totalitarians -of which "Guardian' is leftover conmintern (communist international) 'main organ of propaganda', as is "NY Times", etc., etc., are now (and most likely have long been so) solidly allied with the "religious" totalitarians.
And for those psychotropic-substance abusers (do feel free to continue to use as much as you can)
- the "rightwing", "conservatives", "ultra-conservatives" -or any claiming the label are clue-less and will allow the totalitarians (secular and religious variants) to "progress" -in whatever direction the totalitarians will take humanity.
at February 17, 2007 9:50 AM
JW/DW is a serious site, about a deadly serious issue--it is nobody's plaything. Most of us, I am sure, would much rather be doing something else, including Robert himself. But duty calls.
Posted by: Stendec at February 17, 2007 9:56 AM
'Cheeky bastards'...the guardian!
Thats why we need more people in europe/uk/usa to refute there liberal leftie muslim pandering alligations.
Robert,ask for a right of reply.!!
Its a good thing in a way,its actually getting people talking,theres too much sympathy for the muslims in europe,and USA needs to focus on that.
I had a dream last night,venue...WEMBLEY STADIUM,subject:DEBATE..ARE ALL MUSLIMS POTENTIAL SUICIDE BOMBERS?
In the red corner: robert spencer,andrew murray,daniel pipes,HUGH!
In the blue corner;george galloway,ingwat bugwanker,red ken,salma ya-tart!
Ohhh id pay good money to see a debate of that stature!...lol
at February 17, 2007 9:57 AM
Well, Robert, I for one have left my four penn'orth on the Guardian's 'Comment is Free' blog in support of JW, which I've only recently bookmarked and now look at daily (God, I'm such a toady creep!). Keep up the good work. I hate to say it (because it's such a loathsome party), but the British National Party is the only one that can see the writing on the wall as far as the Muslim threat is concerned. Pity it's such a right-wing, gay-hating, religion-loving, nasty piece of work in other respects.
Posted by: AndyA at February 17, 2007 10:13 AM
If I were a resident of Salt Lake city, I would right now be working toward removing Chief dufus asap. He has proven by its statements that he is unable/unqualified/unwilling to professionally protect the citizens there. He has no problem smearing all races as if racial profiling had anything to do with it. There is a 15 year old girl dead and not yet laid to rest and he is out front worrying about the community that spawned this monster. Congratulations cheifipoo, how many more little girls will be murdered on your watch (puke)? I say many of the police have allowed themselves to become useless and some here hammer me. Ever watch the police chase (safely follow) after a fleeing car, nice and slow with plenty of room between them, as the perp hurdles down the road eventually slamming into some innocent. Pathetic, yet this is the way they have decided to operate. We are expendable, they serve themselves. If it wasn’t bad enough that the mothers/fathers/friends and citizens had to endure the horror that they will never forget, to have to listen to that chief had to be a sickening feeling for all those who lost friends and loved ones. Show us you have a tiny bit of honor chief, do the right thing and step down. Let a real man who isn’t afraid to look out for other 15 year old girls take over, yes act like a man if you can. I won’t be holding my breath, these kind never do the honorable thing. They don’t want to profile, tough , I am, I’m starting a list of professions that cannot be trusted, and it wont take long to fill up a page. I apologize about my anger but I am fed up withthis garbage beyond the point of return.
Posted by: tgusa at February 17, 2007 10:34 AM
A poster at the Guardian has this to say.
Riverbend
Comment No. 435753
February 17 12:21
USA
Freedom of speech is alive and well in the United States. That's a very good thing.
Websites like Little Green Footballs and Jihad watch are very open an honest about where they stand. They view Islamic terrorism as a threat. The fact that they raise it as a possible motive is a direct result of the reflexive politcally correctness to prematurely dismiss it out of hand.
It's precisely because of people like Mr Glaister that websites like LGF and Jihad Watch thrive. The public perceives suppression of facts and a manipulation of the storyline in the media.
Truth will not be denied. It will win out in the end.
Posted by: Dsinc at February 17, 2007 10:40 AM
What is truly amazing is all the concern about the Bosnian community and about Muslims and *no* concern and little reporting about the real victims: the adults and children shot by the Muslim. The Muslim and Muslim community are made out to be the victims and in some imagined danger, while the non-Mulims are dead or in the hospital in real danger of either dying or have a life to look forward to of pain, surgery, recoveries and medical bills.
If the Muslim community was so sorry, then why don't they take up a collection and pay for these people's medical bills and set up trust funds for the murdered victims families? Why don't they form a task force and shut down violent and hate speech in their mosques? Oh right they can't, because that is Islam.
For people's information THESE ARE THE REAL VICTIMS not the Muslims:
The conditions of three survivors of Monday's shootings were upgraded at Salt Lake City hospitals Friday.
* Carolyn Tuft, 44, is in serious condition at LDS Hospital, upgraded from critical.
* Shawn Munns, 34, changed from serious to fair condition, said spokesman Jess Gomez.
* At University Hospital, Stacy Hanson, 50, was upgraded from critical to serious condition.
* At the same hospital, Alan or A.J. Walker, 16, remained in serious condition after undergoing brain surgery earlier in the week. Funerals for the teen's father, Jeffrey Walker, and victim Brad Frantz will be held today. Funds to benefit the victims and their families continue to collect contributions.
AND THESE ARE THE INNOCENTS KILLED by that Muslim:
Relatives Remember Utah Shooting Victims
11 hrs ago Relatives Remember Utah Shooting Victims
(AP Photo/Douglas C. Pizac)
Rich Quinn and his in-laws, Kenny and Sue Antrobus, say goodbye to Vanessa Quinn at her funeral, Friday, Feb. 16, 2007, in Sandy, Utah. Sulejman Talovic allegedly shot and killed 5 people, including Vanessa, and wounded 4 others before he was shot and killed by police at Trolley Square mall Monday night. The Artrobus family is from Cincinnati.
By DEBBIE HUMMEL, The Associated Press
Feb 16, 2007 11:24 PM (11 hrs ago)
Current rank: # 230 of 20,277 articles
SALT LAKE CITY - Vanessa Antrobus Quinn was meeting her husband at a jewelry store to pick out the wedding ring they couldn't afford when they got married. A.J. Walker and his dad were buying Valentine's Day cards for their family. Teresa Ellis was celebrating a bonus she'd gotten at work.
They were among the victims when a teenage gunman opened fire Monday in a crowded shopping mall, killing five people and wounding four.
Sulejman Talovic, 18, began his rampage in the evening, just as the Trolley Square mall began to fill up with people eating dinner at its five restaurants or shopping in its many stores. Talovic died in a shootout with police, and investigators have not determined a motive for the attack.
Vanessa Antrobus and Richard Quinn were married four years ago but didn't have enough money for a ring.
"I was meeting her there to buy a wedding ring. I called her and told her to come," Richard Quinn said, sobbing. His 29-year-old wife was killed before they could find each other in the large shopping center.
At a wake Friday, there were two wedding rings on her hand, one purchased by her husband and another donated by her employer. Richard Quinn will keep one and the other will be given to her parents, family members said.
A.J. Walker, 16, and his 52-year-old father, Jeffrey, had just finished shopping for Valentine's Day gifts for their family when the shooting began. Jeffrey Walker was killed; A.J. was shot in the head.
The teenager was in serious condition Friday. Family spokesman Mark McDougal said the boy knows his father was shot, but his family has not told him Jeffrey Walker died. Doctors recommended limiting the information the boy receives because he is recovering from brain surgery and faces several more operations.
Teresa Ellis, 29, and Brad Frantz, 24, were on a date at the mall, celebrating a bonus she had received at work and doing some Valentine's Day shopping, according to Frantz's stepfather Steve Wangerin. Both were killed.
Ellis, who grew up in Jamestown, N.Y., loved the outdoors and children and was "like a mother to her younger sisters," her obituary said.
"She was witty and could always come up with a quick joke," said Nathan Ellis, her husband, who separated from her but said he remained on good terms.
Frantz, the father of a 3-year-old, worked in construction and was particularly proud of helping to build the Mormon temple in Rexburg, Idaho.
Carolyn Tuft, 44, and her daughter, Kirsten Hinckley, 15, were in a card shop at the mall when they were shot. Kirsten died. Tuft was upgraded from critical to serious condition Friday afternoon, said Jess Gomez, a spokesman for LDS Hospital.
Tuft was "amazing" doctors with her progress, friend Jean Tracy said. Tuft, who suffered gunshots to a shoulder and the lower back, has been up and moving around. On Thursday, she ate her first real meal since the shooting - Mexican food and ice cream, Tracy said.
A memorial service for Kirsten was held Friday, but the family will wait until Tuft is able to attend before holding a funeral. Kirsten's classmates tied red ribbons on school grounds in her memory.
Also wounded were Shawn Munns, 34, and Stacy Hanson, 53.
Shawn Munns, the first person shot, had just finished dinner with his wife and stepchildren. After he was wounded, Munns called his wife, who had driven to the mall separately and was leaving through a different exit. He warned her to get away, then staggered into the Hard Rock Cafe and told people to lock the door and call 911.
His sister-in-law, Jodie Sparrow, says his sense of humor was helping him and the rest of their family cope. Munns' condition was upgraded from serious to fair condition Friday afternoon, Gomez said.
Hanson's brother, Tim, said Hanson was recovering from four shotgun wounds, including one to his lower back that the family thought could be paralyzing, if not fatal.
"He's making progress and we're very thankful for that," Tim Hanson said. "He's told us that he thought this was the end."
------------------
As far as I am concerned, these people would be healthy and alive if Muslims were not allowed to immigrate into the United States. Since the so-called non-violent Muslims are unwilling, unable and won't make an effort to identify those in their "race" who are the jihadi murderers, then they can all be deported back to their countries of origin. We cannot have a free and open society with people who use freedom and openess and our bill of rights to make war on us and try to impose their beliefs on us.
at February 17, 2007 10:41 AM
In 2007, it is more comfortable and socially acceptable to view the world as we would like to see it than it is to view reality. Pass the frappachino, things will change.
Playthingingly yours;
at February 17, 2007 10:51 AM
Each time one of these events occur, it brings out 100 more eager islamists. The denial afterward brings 1000 and so it goes, on and on and on. Deadly incompetence. Despicable ignorance. Investors Business Daily, always out front in the fight against the islamists and their apologists sez it’s SJS. So suck on that for awhile al guardian of the faith.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/02/mainstream_medi.html
at February 17, 2007 11:09 AM
Abby-
It's an "incident" to to people like Dan and Co's drug-up minds. They have to side with people who they think are on the edge, identify with people like the killer in Salt Lake City, they are at home with everything that's bizarre. They become very indignant at "judgements".
-----------
Take a puff of yer pot Dan, maybe a little snort of the coke too, Danny. And be sure to take yer prescription, lad. It's that Prozac stuff, right?
Actually, I think an overprivileged bum like Danny should be fired. Is that judgemental, Danny?
Posted by: Frank at February 17, 2007 11:14 AM
And to the issue central:
I thought - I could have sworn - I heard the shooter yell the Phrase That Slays ("allahu akbar") on the amateur videotape. Yet, the MSM told me no, and even Charles Johnson doesn't think it was there.
And yet...
km posted this link of the vid. Go listen to it at about 1:38, which is where both he and I think the call occurred. Three times. It's there.
This would be (another) open jihadi in the US. Will the MSM admit to it?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507
Posted by: Geoff at February 17, 2007 11:39 AM
Great........FREE ADVERTISING for Jihad Watch and LGF! Now even MORE folks from the UK will be 'enlightened' to the evil of Islam when they go to the sites (out of curiousity).
The Guardian (may moo-ham-eds wee wee be upon them) has actually done you a favour!
Posted by: The Goobs at February 17, 2007 11:49 AM
Oh, I see a Jihad is many people, not just one person, but two guns don't count as anything. My prayers go to the victims, and get the full investigation on the Internet to show the truth !
Posted by: Jeff at February 17, 2007 12:45 PM
Geoff in regards to the calls of Allah Akbar, Zombie posted over on LGF saying it sounds like the police officer shouting 'come on back, come on back' I think he/she maybe right, its still hard to tell though.
Posted by: km at February 17, 2007 1:22 PM
"In the classic leftist totalitarian vision, they want to force everyone to be "good", "good" as defined by them of course."
Ummm ... don't you mean "double-plus-good", Mentat?
Posted by: Zenster at February 17, 2007 3:17 PM
Like it or not Lenin summed up the kind of people who read the Guardian 100 years ago.
"When you are insulted they remind you that you have not been beaten, When you are beaten they remind you that you have not been killed and when you are killed they point out that you have been released from mortal toil!"
Posted by: Fred at February 17, 2007 3:40 PM
MSM is resembling more and more the communist press. Everything is always blue skies as far as the eye can see, in direct contradiction to reality, and any problems that there are, are because of the forces of reaction/conservatism that need to be eradicated before we can completely enter the socialist/liberal paradise.
Since the 50's, crime has gone up because of iditioc judicial decisions that hamstrung police departments. If a policing technique is effective, it will probably be found unconstitutional. 50's USA before all this crap wasn't a police state, but the areas of cities where you could go at night without a weapon were much more extensive.
So you see, in the alternate reality that the MSM wants you to buy into, muslims killing non-muslims isn't happening, instead gratuitous bigotry against muslims is what's happening. That this has no connection to the real world only makes it a much more interesting proposition, after all, if you can get people to believe this flat out BS, then you pretty much have them completely brainwashed and can get them to do anything you want, no? If we can trust the MSM to report stuff that is important, how come I don't remember the MSM reporting Osama's original fatwa declaring war against the US when he did that? I mean, if a man that runs an organization which previuosly carried out terrorist attacks declares war on your country, isn't that newsworthy and shouldn't that be widely reported BEFORE those guys attack and kill 3,000 people?
Posted by: godfreyofbouillon at February 17, 2007 4:33 PM
We should go stuff money in all the muslim's doors, and apologize for being alive....thereby infuriating them....http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/15/here-comes-the-backlash-that-dreaded-backlash/
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 17, 2007 8:44 PM
It is easy to forget that the main threat is our politically correct culture, not the jihadist threat directly. Without PC, we could wipe the floor of the jihadists with relative ease.
PC Culture = AIDS/HIV
Jihadists/Islam = cold that kills a patient without an immune system
Jihadists wouldn't have a chance without the Guardian and the New Duranty Times. Western Civilization gave birth to free speech and modern media, yet much of the MSM is inadvertantly dedicated to our own distruction. Shame on them. Talk about throwing away the blessings that you have been given....
Posted by: JSobieski at February 17, 2007 9:33 PM
the guardian, these liberal papers have more press, more readership, why? because they are popular, accessible to the general public, they speak to people about things which they can relate to. on the other hand, jihad watch, LGF tell the truth about islam and the war against the west, no one wants to hear that. westerners want to hear how we can be at peace if we all follow islam. this is reality. this is the stockholm syndrome.
Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at February 17, 2007 11:34 PM
The Guardian and its readers have accidentally stumbled upon the wrong site.They need to check out Dhimmiwatch.org:
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
That's where they will recognize themselves , if they merely look in the mirror long enough.
Posted by: Caroline at February 18, 2007 12:35 AM
"... westerners want to hear how we can be at peace if we all follow islam ..."
Does anyone think this might have something to do with the way that both Bush and Blair continue to spew the Kool-Aid of how Islam is a "Religion of Peace"? (When it's neither)
"Islamofascism" represented a nice start, tardy as it most certainly was. However, the rhetoric in use needs to be ratcheted up another order of magnitude, or two, before any tangible results can be expected. When terms like; "jizya", "zakat" and "dhimmitude" finally become common parlance, we might begin to hope for the seachange that is definitely required.
When one considers that, here in the land where integrated circuits were invented, the vast majority of American politicians cannot even give the vaguest description of how a computer really works, what hope is there that they will learn foreign terminology attached to a wholly alien belief structure?
Our only hope is connecting their opportunity to be re-elected with acquisition of such knowledge. Hell, they'd all be speaking Arabic before the devil could get his shoes on.
Posted by: Zenster at February 18, 2007 2:04 AM
Back in the real world, concern was evident for members of Utah's Bosnian community. While there were accounts of threats against Bosnians in local papers, none were reported to police.
........................
Yes, "back in the real world" of today, there is as much concern over the mere rumor of threats of retaliation (notice these purported threats were not even reported to the police) as there is concern about the five dead and four wounded victims of the shooting rampage.
I am so tired of this. Of course, no one wants to see attacks on random members of the Muslim community--but I have not heard of this happening at all in the West. It is a way of repossitioning concerns following any act of Muslim violence, where the focus shifts immediately from whatever attrocity was commited to the possibility of *Muslim* victims.
Also, the whole local Muslim community is posited as full of potential victims of local revenge-crazed Islamophobes, which actually seems to trump the original violence, with its (necessarily) more limited number of actual victims.
It was the same after the San Francisco SUV killer went on his rampage last summer. Large numbers of Afghans in Fremont claimed to be terrified about being targeted in a backlash. No one that I heard expressed any regret over the actual victims.
Posted by: gravenimage at February 19, 2007 3:58 PM
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