Um ... much as I deeply respect you, Robert, you are assuming that religion DOES have something to do with it without evidence.

You can speculate about it, but rushing to a determination that it MUST be based on national original isn't empirically valid.

You can wonder, but when you use it beyond speculation to draw a conclusion before the evidence is there to support a conclusion, you make yourself appear to be irresponsible, when I know you to be anything of the sort.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 8:53 PM

Morgaan:

Assuming? Where?

I wrote: "it is at very least a possibility that Talovic, like so many others around the world every day, as well as other lone jihadists in the U.S. like Mohammad Reza Taheri-azar, killed in the name of Allah and with justification from the Qur'an and Sunnah. That's why Talovic's religion at least merits a mention, and some investigation."

"At very least a possibility" is hardly assuming anything.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 8:55 PM

In fact, when someone of a Christian minority in the Balkans commits a spousal or hysterical murder, you NEVER hear about it. Only if they're Muslim do you hear about it.

Try it. Google it. On Albanian Catholic and Bosnian Catholic and Serb Orthodox I can find no reference to any murders AT ALL on Google, DogPile, MS search or anything else.

That's because it's not news. What? You think that there are no Catholics and Orthodox killing their wives in the United States? Are you kidding?

It's not reported AT ALL.

What makes a Muslim murder reporter is the fear factor that it is connected to radical jihad or politicis.

But nobody is waiting to see if it ***IS*** connected, or if we've got a case of marital strife or a psychic breach.

And that is why it is unfair to connect it to religious violence until you know that it is true.

THEN, pounce in it with all fours and everything you've got.

But to do so before there is evidence to support the accusation (I didn't say absolute proof, I said evidence) is unfair and academically and morally irresponsible.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:00 PM

Morgaan:

You say: "And that is why it is unfair to connect it to religious violence until you know that it is true. THEN, pounce in it with all fours and everything you've got. But to do so before there is evidence to support the accusation (I didn't say absolute proof, I said evidence) is unfair and academically and morally irresponsible."

If I had done this, I might be concerned.

But I haven't, so I'm not.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 9:02 PM

I think another reason why they were quick to point out he is Christian because of this thought process..

- Person reads the story
- Person sees the guy's name
- Person thinks... "Dang nabbit, those colored people from the desert are killing people again. I bet it's one of those religious fanatics , i thikn its that moose religion or something. I cant remember cuz i'm a dumb american"
- Person sees the words "..Christian.."
- Person becomes enlightened.. "Oh I guess all those colored people from the desert aren't religious fanatics , even those loose limbs.. hmm that sounds right. Marge, get me a beer, gosh darnit."

Posted by: Vince at February 18, 2007 9:03 PM

uh oh Sudden Jihad Syndrome has struck AGAIN..

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- A local cab driver allegedly tried to run over two customers after a fight over religion became heated.
The incident happened early Sunday morning on the Vanderbilt campus and left one man hospitalized and a cab driver arrested, said police

Two students visiting from Ohio were coming from a bar downtown when they got into an argument with their driver over religion, said police. After they paid the driver he allegedly ran them down in a parking lot.

Ibrihim Ahmed, of United Cab, was arrested and charged with assault, attempted homicide and theft. One of the passengers, Andrew Nelson, managed to outrun the cab but Jeremy Invus was taken to the Vanderbilt University Medical Center with serious injuries, said police....

Posted by: Vince at February 18, 2007 9:07 PM

oh wrong blog

can you remove that post?

Posted by: Vince at February 18, 2007 9:08 PM

Dear Mr. Spencer,
You are absolutely correct in Christianity would be a banner headline as Christian bashing is a sport in the world while for economic oil and not wanting to inflame Islam the Utah case is not reported in the same sense.
I have been one of those who has been stating this was not a jihad attack, but of a different profile. I though want to stress again that being a Muslim had a part in Utah just like the Assyrian Christians had a part in their 3rd world roots of violence.
Mr. Spencer you do a great job in trying to deal with everyone in the circus as one day you are screamed at for not being intense enough and the next you are too intense.
You though are doing a job which few others will touch with civility, intelligence and respect of others. This is a wonderful information site and your discernments as are your collegues are much appreciated.
Thank you
LC

Posted by: Lame Cherry at February 18, 2007 9:10 PM

When something appears as a headline article at JihadWatch, with implicit connection to JIHAD WATCHING, the assumption is absolutely being made that deep down, lurking in there somewhere, this guys is religiously motivated.

I don't care how delicate the speech about it is.

When some Christian moron beats his wife to death in Bosnia, Kosovo or Serbia, it doesn't appear anywhere on the internet ... and if it does his religion is NEVER MENTIONED.

As I've said before, when Muslims do anything violent we break out in a rash becuase our FEAR is that there is something underneath. Maybe. Maybe now.

But JW has been beating Japanese brass drums for days on Talovic and Kosovo ... it wasn't 10 minutes after this happened that Talovic THE MUSLIM wss all over JW.

Speculation: IT'S HIS RELIGION!!!

I'm just saying ... rather than decide it is, implicity, explicitly, with delicate language that gives you plausible deniability or not ...

WAIT

FOR

THE

EVIDENCE.

Until then, he is a kid with a broken mind. At least. Maybe more. But we don't know that yet.

And if you do as I ask and Google murder cases in Christian majority countries, in Balkan countries, then you'll realize that religion of Christians is never mentioned. It's assumed becuase they are the majority of the population.

And the real hidden agenda here is to try to smear the Bosnians and Kosovars and anybody else that's Muslim in the Balkans in support of the Serbs, and possibly their Orthodox religion, to TRUMP UP SUPPORT FOR SERB CONTROL OF KOSOVO.

I'm going to bed. I'm too angry and disgusted to hang around this a minute longer.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:11 PM

Morgaan:

You say: "I don't care how delicate the speech about it is."

Well, I do. I choose my words carefully. It is not about "plausible deniability," it is about accuracy. I have said what I have thought to be true about Talovic, no more and no less: this is a possibility that should be investigated.

And I will not apologize for saying that, or for saying that in just exactly the ways I have said it.

But your statement that I have asserted or implied or suggested more than that is false. I have said what I have meant to say, and that's all.

As for the Kosovo, you are discussing material that has never appeared on this site. I have no responsibility for that, and am not interested in discussing it. The material that has appeared on this site about Kosovo, I of course stand by.

Cordially
Robert

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 9:16 PM

OK, IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THIS IS CONNECTED TO RADICAL ISLAMISM, PLEASE PRESENT IT:

OTHERWISE, THE FOLLOWING I WOULD IMAGINE WOULD STAND FOR ANY RATIONAL PERSON.

Source: http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0207/1601_utah_mall_shooting.html

FBI Claims Shooting Rampage in Salt Lake City Not Linked To Terrorism

By Chuck Hustmyre

February 16, 2007

advertisement

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (Crime Library) — He was a lone shooter who went on a killing rampage. No one disputes that.

In just six minutes, armed with a pair of low-tech firearms—a pump-action shotgun and a .38-caliber revolver, technology from two centuries ago—Sulejmen Talovic, an 18-year-old Muslim refugee from war-torn Bosnia, shot nine people, killing five and wounding four, at a crowded downtown shopping mall Monday night before dying under a hail of police bullets.

Sulejmen Talovic
Sulejmen Talovic

The question is, why? Was it insanity or jihad?

FBI Special Agent Patrick Kiernan, a supervisor in the FBI's Salt Lake City office, has said repeatedly since Monday that Talovic's murderous shooting spree inside the Trolley Square mall was not connected to terrorism. "There is nothing that is throwing up red flags," Kiernan told Crime Library.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:19 PM

For the record, just what I found in a 3 minute search of crime in Kosovo, Bosnia and Catholics covering up crime.

Google:

Bosnia-Herzegovina
There exists a substantial organized crime presence throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina; however, violent confrontations between rival criminal elements ...
travel.state.gov/travel/bosnia_warning.html

Vatican accused of shielding 'war criminal' | Croatia | Europe ...
Carla del Ponte, the chief prosecutor of the UN international criminal tribunal for ... was being sheltered in a Franciscan monastery in his native Croatia. ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../news/2005/09/20/wponte20.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/09/20/ixworld.html

Category:Crime in Kosovo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pages in category "Crime in Kosovo". There is one page in this section of this category. S. Sexual trafficking in Kosovo ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Crime_in_Kosovo

Posted by: Lame Cherry at February 18, 2007 9:20 PM

Get back to us when Jews and Christians start flying planes into office towers incinerating thousands in saudi, egypt, or the UAE shouting "Jesus is Lord!" and "Baruch HaShem.

Nice posting time of yours too. G-d does have a sense of humor.

Posted by: Arm A. Geddon at February 18, 2007 9:20 PM

Robert, you are discussing Kosovo daily on this site.

And you have printed multiple articles **WITH COMMENTS** on Talovic for the sole purpose of linking his acts in theory or in fact to radical Islamic jihad.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:20 PM

no you are wrong, it is his religion that caused this massacre. the same with that the colombine massacres happened due to the shooters being involved in their own personal cult (whatever their own cult was). islam was this young man's cause, his driving force as well as his exposure to extreme politics in his home nation and witnessing war. he was obviously psycologically messed up and world events,his involvement in the cult of islam and his access to a firearm/s all contributed.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at February 18, 2007 9:20 PM

In the East you hear everyday I bet that the Christian west is evil it's currupt and the people are evil. The difference is that now Islam is exposed by their Muslim immigration to the West you are bount to hear it.

The problem is that Muslims use the Religion to justify their actions they point out usually saying 'look Muhammad did it so it's ok.' There are lots of barbaric acts that Muslims can claim Muhhamad did too and lead by his laws and his example.

where as a quote from the Gospels you can not say Jesus told you to do it because he led by example a sinless life. Unless you are hearing voices which is usually the case for ignorant Christian mentally ill people in the West. So by the East proclaiming their good deeds their definition is to kill you because your sin of being an apostate to Islam is in line with their over strict and clean image of a sinless egg shell society where you are basically killed over nothing. And yes even Americans kill over nothing by gang culture but they say Rap music made them do it.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at February 18, 2007 9:21 PM

Morgaan:

If you had continued reading that Crime Library piece by Chuck Hustmyre, you would have found me quoted extensively. Hustmyre interviewed me for it a few days ago. In any case, the whole issue in the Talovic case is whether or not the FBI is paying due attention to the possibility that the crime was religiously motivated. There are many precedents, as Chuck Hustmyre details, for suspecting that it is not.

As for Kosovo, do a search. Stories have appeared frequently lately, but not daily. I will post more if I can find them.

However, your assertion that "you have printed multiple articles **WITH COMMENTS** on Talovic for the sole purpose of linking his acts in theory or in fact to radical Islamic jihad" is false. I have raised it as a possibility. That's all. If you think otherwise, quote me.

RS

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 9:27 PM

WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS ARTICLE AND WHAT IS IT MEANT TO IMPLY:

FROM FRONT PAGE MAG:

******Salt Lake Jihad?*****

By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 15, 2007

When Sulejmen Talovic entered the Trolley Square mall in Salt Lake City Monday night with a shotgun, a pistol, and a backpack full of ammunition, he intended to “kill a large number of people,” according to Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank. Talovic killed five people and wounded four before he himself was killed by an off-duty Ogden police officer who happened to be in the mall.

Why did Talovic do it? No one knows. Talovic’s aunt, Ajka Omerovic, told reporters: “We want to know what happened, just like you guys. We have no idea...We know him as a good boy. He liked everybody, so I don’t know what happened.” Talovic, who was eighteen at the time of the murders, was a Bosnian Muslim who came to the United States with his family in 1998. ***************Could he have been motivated by jihadist sympathies?****************

FBI special agent Patrick Kiernan discounted that possibility. “We’re working closely with the Salt Lake P.D. and we’re obviously aware that that [terrorism] is a potential issue out there,” he explained. “But at this point there is nothing that is leading us down this road.” And with Talovic dead and apparently having acted alone, unless something he wrote explaining his actions is discovered, it is unlikely that his motive will ever be definitively known.

But was Kiernan really correct that “there is nothing that is leading us down this road”? Unfortunately, he didn’t explain how he came to this conclusion.

*******Talovic joins an unfortunately growing list of Muslims who have committed random acts of violence, only for officials to assure us that their actions have nothing to do with terrorism.***** [AND YOU HAVE EVIDENCE IT IS? IF NOT WHY ARE YOU CASTING THE ASPERSION??]

Maybe none of them do, but the list is full of troubling details:

* On January 31, Ismail Yassin Mohamed, 22, stole a car in Minneapolis. He went on a rampage, ramming the stolen car into other cars and then stealing a van and continuing to ram other cars, injuring one person. His father told officials that Mohamed was suffering from mental problems; his mother added he had been depressed and hadn’t been taking his medication. During his rampage, Mohamed repeatedly yelled, “Die, die, die, kill, kill, kill,” and when asked why he did all this, he replied, “Allah made me do it.”
[THIS IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CASE? WHY ARE YOU DRAWING THIS COMPARISON TO TALOVIC? WHAT'S IT GOT TO DO WITH HIS CASE?]

* Omeed Aziz Popal, a Muslim from Afghanistan, who killed one person and injured fourteen during a murderous drive through San Francisco city streets in August 2006, during which he targeted people on crosswalks and sidewalks, identified himself as a terrorist after his rampage, according to Rob Roth of San Francisco’s KTVU. Later the murders were ascribed to Popal’s mental problems, and to stress arising from his impending arranged marriage.
[AND THIS, TOO, IS JIHAD? IF NOT, WHY BRING IT UP? IF SO, WHY DOES IT IMPLICATE TALOVIC?]

* On July 28, 2006, a Muslim named Naveed Afzal Haq forced his way into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle. Once inside, Haq announced, “I’m a Muslim American; I’m angry at Israel,” and then began shooting, killing one woman and injuring five more. FBI assistant special agent David Gomez stated: “We believe...it’s a lone individual acting out his antagonism. There’s nothing to indicate that it’s terrorism-related. But we're monitoring the entire situation.”

[AND THE CONNECTION TO TALOVIC IS ....??]

* In March 2006, a twenty-two-year-old Iranian student named Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar drove an SUV onto the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, deliberately trying to kill people and succeeding in injuring nine. After the incident, he seemed singularly pleased with himself, smiling and waving to crowds after a court appearance on Monday, at which he explained that he was “thankful for the opportunity to spread the will of Allah.” Officials here again dismissed the possibility of terrorism, even after Taheri-azar wrote a series of letters to the UNC campus newspaper detailing the Qur’anic justification for warfare against unbelievers, and explaining why he believed his attacks were justified from an Islamic perspective.

[AND THIS IS CONNECTION TO TALOVIC EXACTLY HOW? ... ]

None of these were terrorist attacks in the sense that they were planned and executed by al-Qaeda agents. [BUT THEY IMPLY JIHAD OF WHICH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN TALOVIC'S CASE.]

And it is possible that all of them were products of nothing more ideologically significant than a disturbed mental state, although it is at least noteworthy that each attacker explained his actions in terms of Islamic terrorism. [IF YOU BELIEVED THAT WHY DID YOU ENTITLE THE ARTICLE AS YOU DID?]

As such attacks grow in number, it would behoove authorities at very least to consider the possibility that these attacks were inspired by the jihadist ideology of Islamic supremacism, and to step up pressure on American Muslim advocacy groups to renounce that ideology definitively and begin extensive programs to teach against it in American Islamic schools and mosques.

[THE AUTHORITIES ARE COMPLETELY CAPABLE OF MAKING THIS INTELLIGENCE LEAP OF EXACTLY ZERO MAGNITUDE, AND THE FACT THEY DO NOT BROADCAST DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT DOING IT.]

THIS IS IRRESPONSIBLE YELLOW JOURNALISM, DESIGN TO TITILLATE.

MEANWHILE, IN SALT LAKE CITY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE ARE DEAD AND A FAMILY IS DESTROYED AND WHILE LAW ENFORCEMENT TRIES TO FIGURE WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IRRESPONSIBLE JOURNALISTS ARE SCREAMING ...

SALT LAKE CITY JIHAD?????????????

As I said before ...

PLEASE

WAIT

FOR

AT

LEAST

A

TINY

TINY

TINY

TINY

TINY

TINY

TINY

SHRED

OF

EVIDENCE

BEFORE

YOU

INDICT

THIS

KID

AND

BOSNIAN

MUSLIMS.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:31 PM

Oh, and the incredible last paragraph:

QUOTING:

In October 2006, a pro-jihad internet site published a “Guide for Individual Jihad,” explaining to jihadists “how to fight alone.” It recommended, among other things, assassination with guns and running people over. Is it possible that Sulejmen Talovic and some of these others were waging this jihad of one? It is indeed, but with law enforcement officials trained only to look for signs of membership in al-Qaeda or other jihad groups, and to discount terrorism as a factor if those signs aren’t there, it is a possibility that investigators will continue to overlook.

END QUOTE:

Do you have any evidence that ever saw a "Guide for Individual Jihad" that, as you point out, recommended ASSASSINATION WITH GUNS.

QU0TING:

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT SULEJMEN (SIC) TALOVIC AND SOME OF THESE OTHERS WERE WAGING JIAD OF ONE? IT IS INDEED ...

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:35 PM

After 31 years, the FBI has opened an investigation into the involvement of Palestinian Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat in the murders of two U.S. diplomats in Sudan in 1973, WorldNetDaily has learned.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40317

Posted by: Arm A. Geddon at February 18, 2007 9:37 PM

And somebody tell me when LeonthePigFarmer (you said it, Leon, not me) knows what is in Talovic's head.

And BTW Leon, the Columbine killer Klebold was Jewish/Lutheran. Read it and weep:

Dylan Klebold, one of two suspects in last week's bloodbath at Columbine High School, led a life of contradictions.

He admired Hitler, yet his great-great grandfather was a respected Jewish philanthropist in Ohio.

His mother considered herself Jewish, yet the family belonged to a Lutheran church.

Dylan recited the Four Questions at a Passover seder recently held at his family home, yet he was buried in a Lutheran service on Saturday.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:38 PM

And BTW, the complaint that the FBI didn't seize his computer is rather bogus since ...

SULEJMAN

TALOVIC

DID

NOT

OWN

A

COMPUTER

AND

NEITHER

DID

ANYBODY

WHO

LIVED

IN

HIS

HOUSE ...

So what do you do with the CYBERTERRORISM aspersion now??????

QUOTING:

n October 2006, a pro-jihad internet site published a “Guide for Individual Jihad,” explaining to jihadists “how to fight alone.” It recommended, among other things, assassination with guns and running people over. Is it possible that Sulejmen Talovic and some of these others were waging this jihad of one?

END QUOTE

Well, I guess if he was he got from the mailbox down the street with the yellow chalk mark on it, no???

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:44 PM

Morgaan:

You ask: "WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS ARTICLE AND WHAT IS IT MEANT TO IMPLY: FROM FRONT PAGE MAG: ******Salt Lake Jihad?*****"

It is meant to imply that there was possibly a jihad attack in Salt Lake City. The question mark denotes a question, not a statement. Did you not see it?

You highlight also this question by me: "***************Could he have been motivated by jihadist sympathies?****************"

Is there something wrong with asking that question, given that jihadists, including lone gunmen, are a rather frequent feature of the global landscape these days?

You highlight also this quote by me and then ask a question in all caps: "*******Talovic joins an unfortunately growing list of Muslims who have committed random acts of violence, only for officials to assure us that their actions have nothing to do with terrorism.***** [AND YOU HAVE EVIDENCE IT IS? IF NOT WHY ARE YOU CASTING THE ASPERSION??]"

I have no evidence that it is, and am only asking that the possibility be investigated. I am asking that this be investigated because in many other cases, as Daniel Pipes documents here ( http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21630 ) -- and there are many other such cases also -- this possibility seems to have been discounted without due consideration. See also my article here:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17959

You ask about Ismail Yassin Mohamed's case: "[THIS IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CASE? WHY ARE YOU DRAWING THIS COMPARISON TO TALOVIC? WHAT'S IT GOT TO DO WITH HIS CASE?]"

Of course it is a totally different case. The only reason why it has anything to do with Talovic is because it is possible that in both cases a jihadist motivation has not been sufficiently investigated.

You ask the same thing about Omeed Aziz Popal: "[AND THIS, TOO, IS JIHAD? IF NOT, WHY BRING IT UP? IF SO, WHY DOES IT IMPLICATE TALOVIC?]"

And my answer here again is the same.

And about Naveed Haq: "[AND THE CONNECTION TO TALOVIC IS ....??]"

And my answer is again the same as above.

And you ask about Taheri-azar: "[AND THIS IS CONNECTION TO TALOVIC EXACTLY HOW? ... ]"

Again, same answer.

You go on to quote me and then ask another question in caps: "None of these were terrorist attacks in the sense that they were planned and executed by al-Qaeda agents. [BUT THEY IMPLY JIHAD OF WHICH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN TALOVIC'S CASE.]"

Correct. But there's no evidence of anything in Talovic's case. Are agents looking into the possibility that this could be like the others, or are they discounting that possibility out of political correctness?

You go on to quote me again and then ask another question in caps: "And it is possible that all of them were products of nothing more ideologically significant than a disturbed mental state, although it is at least noteworthy that each attacker explained his actions in terms of Islamic terrorism. [IF YOU BELIEVED THAT WHY DID YOU ENTITLE THE ARTICLE AS YOU DID?]"

Did you not see the question mark in the title of the article?

You say: "[THE AUTHORITIES ARE COMPLETELY CAPABLE OF MAKING THIS INTELLIGENCE LEAP OF EXACTLY ZERO MAGNITUDE, AND THE FACT THEY DO NOT BROADCAST DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT DOING IT.]"

Maybe.

You say: "THIS IS IRRESPONSIBLE YELLOW JOURNALISM, DESIGN TO TITILLATE."

No, it isn't. I raised a possibility that needs raising.

You say: "MEANWHILE, IN SALT LAKE CITY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE ARE DEAD AND A FAMILY IS DESTROYED AND WHILE LAW ENFORCEMENT TRIES TO FIGURE WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IRRESPONSIBLE JOURNALISTS ARE SCREAMING ..."

I am not the one screaming in this instance.

You say: "SALT LAKE CITY JIHAD????????????? As I said before ... PLEASE WAIT FOR AT LEAST A TINY
TINY TINY TINY TINY TINY TINY SHRED OF EVIDENCE
BEFORE YOU INDICT THIS KID AND BOSNIAN MUSLIMS."

I haven't "indicted" this mass murderer, or Bosnian Muslims. You can't produce any actual evidence to the contrary, either. You are willfully misreading what I wrote, forcing conclusions onto it, and then indicting me for your misreading. In fact, you are doing to me what you claim I am doing to Talovic.

RS

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 9:44 PM

OK, I've quoted you. Now I'm leaving. This is ridiculous and insane.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:45 PM

Morgaan:

You ask "Do you have any evidence that ever saw a "Guide for Individual Jihad" that, as you point out, recommended ASSASSINATION WITH GUNS."

I guess you are suggesting I made it up?

There is a clickable link in the FP story, taking you to the news story about the Guide for Individual Jihad, and yes, it mentions assassination with guns.

The detail about the FBI not seizing his computer came from an early police statement to that effect. Only later did they start saying that he didn't own a computer. Their accounts here are inconsistent. You can see this, too, in the news stories, as well as the information that he got in trouble at school for looking at AK 47 sites on school computers.

Anyway, I stand by the article, and everything I have written about this case, and I am deeply disappointed in your suggestions that I am acting irresponsibly and dishonestly. But I suppose in this we go out the same door we came in.

Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 9:49 PM

Morgaan

You've quoted me, all right, but it is unfortunate that at your age and level of education you don't seem to know the meaning of a question mark.

Goodbye.
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 9:50 PM

PEOPLE, we have a big fight on our hands with real people. Trying to make a case out of sick teenager who has ZERO contacts and no computer -- on a national website with 7.8 million visitors in less than 9 months, while his family hides in their home, is simply not fair. And writing an article entitled "SALT LAKE CITY ***JIHAD***" when you know such an article and multiple quotes from it clearly imply, though in excellently unlitigable language, that a connection is somehow likely, is just beyond the pale.

And ... 99.9% of the time everything Robert Spencer is splendid. This one, though, is just off the known world.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 9:57 PM

here's a good definition of Political Correctness.

"The following is the winning entry from an annual contest calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term. This year's term was: Political Correctness
"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Just got it in an e-mail from a friend.

Posted by: Paladin3000 at February 18, 2007 9:57 PM

Morgaan

Don't hold Mr. Spencer responsible for what conclusions some of the more prejudiced readers come up with. Commenters are responsible for their own thoughts and opinions. He himself has not "indicted this boy and Bosnian Muslims" but he is only bringing this up because no one in the FBI will ever consider this. And if they do, well it won't be for long.

Posted by: wrathofasma at February 18, 2007 9:59 PM

Morgaan

You left out the question mark again.

R

Posted by: jihadwatch at February 18, 2007 10:00 PM

Morgaan,

Aren't you comparing apples and oranges?

A spousal murder in Kosovo? Of course I wouldn't expect to hear about it, even if it was a Muslim couple. I also don't expect to hear about husbands in America killing their wives. The ones I DO expect to see are the ones where the husband kills his wife and says it's perfectly legal under the rules of his religion and that the local government has no right to hold him. You'll not see that in a case where a Christian kills his wife. And no priest will back up someone who tries.

Here the case was in the news because it was three women in two locations, not indicative of a husband murdering his wife.

Talovic murdered strangers in broad daylight in a shopping mall. The cabbie ran down two people after they paid their fare. THAT'S NEWS. In both cases we would want to know the motive. If the motive is Islam, why aren't we told? The cabbie could have just been having a bad day, but why aren't we told?

Why was the motive for killings at the Empire State Building hushed up for ten years? We still would be in the dark, were it not for the fact that the murderer's family decided they were sick of hiding their family member's jihad. They wanted some glory from the Muslim community. THAT"S NEWS.

What's so dam special about Islam that our own news organizations can't give us the truth? Maybe Islam has nothing to do with these crimes, but if they can point out religions of other immigrants, why not these two? What's with the sensitivity toward Muslims? Christian sensibilities are not considered when the press publicizes art with crap on the Virgin Mary. Are Muslims incapable of even HEARING that one of their own might have gone off the deep end?

We are expected to respect others' faith. What about them respecting us? Must we surrender all of our freedoms just so Muslims won't be offended? If what these people did goes against the law of Islam, let Muslims come forth and do some community outreach. Is that too much to ask? Let them explain where these ideas come from and why they're wrong and what THEY are going to do to try and squash some of the notions that some imams are spreading.

We have a right to know when we are threatened. Our leaders have a duty to investigate the threat and give us the truth, not hide it from us.

Please tell me what other religion justifies killing unarmed people. The only one I know of is Islam. Some Muslim clerics think it's perfectly okay to kill health care workers. What other religion does?

Posted by: PMK at February 18, 2007 10:01 PM

Gimme a break. The FBI is considering this all the time. My car got stolen for 15 minutes this afternoon and the first thing the police asked me was if the kid was Muslim.

If you want to see the JIHADI TALOVIC FAMILY, see this:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660196127,00.html

Look especially at the 9-year-old girl who just lost her insane brother. And then tell me why every neocon site in America thinks they can try this kid without a SHRED of evidence ... not even ****ON**** connection to anybody or anything that is jihadist.

Look, you have my total, happy permission to slaughter anybody doing terrorism or giving aid and comfort to terrorists or financing terrorist -- AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING STOP BUYING THEIR GAS!! -- but don't shred these people anymore. Or spread innuendos. Or make "internet" connections for people who don't have computers.

Or anything else.

We are still Americans, and so are the Tavlovic's. And we are still Christians.

I think.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 10:03 PM

RS is most certainly NOT jumping to conclusions or making unwarranted assumptions in the Talovic shooting. But I'll tell you who is: The chief of police or FBI agent (I can't remember which) who within hours of the shooting asserted that there was no terrorist connection. It's public statements like these by the authorities (as well as DHS chief Chertoff's memo defending the good name of Islam) that lead me to believe that it's quite possible that the terrorist angle of this and other violent attacks against Americans aren't being fully investigated.

And here's a very good reason why Talovic's Muslim religion should be an issue, while the Assyrian's Christian religion shouldn't. Both men had murder on their minds. But Talovic went to a mall full of infidels to find his victims, whereas the Assyrian turned his rage inward, toward his family first and then, ultimately, himself.

Posted by: sheik yer booty at February 18, 2007 10:03 PM

R

Feel free to correct my punctuation. Stop printing yellow journalistic trash for FPM that casts aspersions you can never take back.

M

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 10:04 PM

There is exactly ZERO, ZERO, ZERO evidence that Tavlovic went to the mall after "infidels".

When you find it I will listen to it. Until then, I think you've all got too much time on your hands and are stabbling at thin air to find another "jihadist" to lay all your rage on.

JUST

WAIT

FOR

THE

EVIDENCE

LIKE

RESPONSIBLE

PEOPLE

INSTEAD

OF

CONFLATING

EVERY

TERRORIST

ATTACK

FROM

NORTH

CAROLINA

TO

TEXAS

AND

DESTROYING

THIS

INSANE

KID'S

FAMILY.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 10:12 PM

Morgan Sinclair,
It is good in a way to see Morgan Sinclair so passionately supports the "All muslims are not jihadis" propoganda bandwagon.

Is it because you have the strong secular values and political correctness we all have been brought up in since we were kids.

If you really feel ,it was not jihad related and because of our strong secular beliefs,got the time to justify it was not, then have ever you wondered why the moderate muslims never find time to even criticize the sept 9/11 attack.

The answer lies in the upbringing between the 2 religions. Ours teaches non-violence and tolerance for other religions.
It is a known fact but also denied fact on purpose that every muslim is jihadi within because they follow the koran blindly and koran says kill all non-muslims ,if they do not embrace Islam.

The only difference is most of muslims have still not found the opportunity to contribute to jihad and are waiting for right opportunity to strike and meanwhile chant the theme that they are moderates just as an elaborate coverup.

Posted by: Indiana_jones at February 18, 2007 10:18 PM

Nashville: Muslim cabbie tries to run down two students after "fight over religion became heated.

This is prime example of what i stated above and pasted below for your reference

"It is a known fact but also denied fact on purpose that every muslim is jihadi within because they follow the koran blindly and koran says kill all non-muslims ,if they do not embrace Islam.

The only difference is most of muslims have still not found the opportunity to contribute to jihad and are waiting for right opportunity to strike and meanwhile chant the theme that they are moderates just as an elaborate coverup.""

This cabbie was obviously a moderate,who chose to live in USA ,reap the benefits of the good life the country gave him. But deep witihin his belief of jihad was so strong that he found it reasonable to try to kill 2 young people ,because of an argument. Killing was his solution .

Jay leno , and other comedians make fun of christianity all the time. How many Christians have though it worthy enough to kill them???? NONE. Simple because joke should be taken as a joke and argument as an argument.

But Islam chose to protest violently in millions over Danish cartoons. This just gives you an insight into their violent mentality and support for jihad and strong belief that all infidels should die and they act in groups and also as lone people doing their own jihad. But all of it eventually pinpoints to one inspiration to kill and that is Islamic jihad.

Posted by: Indiana_jones at February 18, 2007 10:28 PM

morgan,what do all those story's have in comon with this mall sissy? its a little thing called islam,evan when the killers stated for all to see,that they did it for allah/islam/moohomid,the cops still say it wasnt terrorist.but low and behold what did the killers say?so what he didnt have a putter,big whoop....ever heard of a libary?well most muslims wouldnt,cause the only thing they are permited to learn is islam,that would make anybody insane.

Posted by: Patriot8 at February 18, 2007 10:34 PM

Here is an interesting concept, while we put 2 and 2 together.

"I think somebody is behind this," Suljo Talovic says. "I need to know, who is this? Who gave him the gun to shoot? I think someone influenced him to do this."

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_5238957

Yes indeed. But who?

Suljo Talovic, Father of Shooter: "Somebody got (the guns)…and maybe (they were) training him and tell(ing) him (to), ‘go shoot somebody.'"

Question: So you think that somebody influenced him maybe to do this?

Suljo Talovic: "Yeah. I think somebody."

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=900025

The father knows more than he is letting on and it will probably come out in the days to come.

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=648

What was Suljeman's motivation? Why the mall? Why the card shop/ What statement was he trying to make? And what was he getting out of it?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 18, 2007 10:42 PM

There is something about jihadists that go around killing people they have never met. It is the qur'an.
If this kid read any part of the qur'an he saw something about waging warfare on unbelievers. I'm sorry, I just can't work up a tear for this murderer's family.
You argument about Christianity is lame. If the man (I believe your term was "moron", funny how the "Christian" is a moron and a murdering muslim is some poor insane boy) A Christian, a real Christian would not be beating his wife in the first place, while a muslim that beats his wife does so with the full authority of the qur'an. I don't understand why people don't get that.....a Christian is not a Christian by birth. A Christian must follow Jesus.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 18, 2007 10:44 PM

Sorry if my post is strange...I'm in a cloud of flu, and can't think clearly. But you get my point.
Christianity does not order violence, islam does.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 18, 2007 10:48 PM

-- AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING STOP BUYING THEIR GAS!! -- posted above

We don’t buy their gas, we buy some of their (ME) oil.
Most of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico, try it, google it.

Then start your own web site, and you can call it

“Christians killing their wives in the Balkans and we don’t care here at jihadwatch, I wonder why? dot com.”

Posted by: Bar at February 18, 2007 10:57 PM

Carolyn 2, I got what you said. As a Christian, I'm sick to death of the double standard that is shoved down our throats endlessly and I'm not going to hold my peace about it anymore. What I don't understand is, what does the news media get out of it by not releasing that information? We know Muslims who follow the Koran believe that they will go to heaven if they kill infidels. We know Mohammad Atta believed that before he flew that plane into the Trade Center. We know that the guy who drove his car into the lunch area at the university in N.C. said he was doing what Allah told him to do. There is a pattern here, and despite all the bleeding heart sympathy for all of the poor innocent Muslims around the U.S., these folks tell us, before they do it and after they do it, why they are going after us. They practically scream it in our faces. And yet we still hem and haw and wonder what they really mean?!!?! Dumb-dee-dumb-dumb.

Now girl, get some hot lemonade, and wait until you are in bed, covered up, to drink it. It will make you feel nice and warm and woozy and if you lay down to go to sleep it will sweat you out and I promise you will feel better. (But when I had the flu last month I was on this site, day and night. Something about not feeling guilty because you can't go to work anyway!)

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 18, 2007 11:08 PM

On mentioning religion . . .

. . . whenever there is an unprovoked shooting of strangers, an assumption that the shooter is Islamic is 99% correct.

Although Robert Spencer has never jumped the gun and assumed a shooter was Moslem, I have privately made that assumption and found that I was 99+% correct.

In these cases, erring on the side of intuition yields a higher success rate than giving Islam the benefit of the doubt.

The Moslem connection to the Oklahoma City bombing has never been completely refuted. One thing that we do know, it was done to hurt the Federal government--not in the name of Christianity.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at February 18, 2007 11:12 PM

Oh, and just because the kid didn't have a computer doesn't mean he didn't have access to one at a friend's house or the local junior college. I suspect the person who gave him the guns had one.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 18, 2007 11:13 PM

The apparent targeting of people buying Valentine cards may or not be relevant: there are several imams criticising this infidel ceremony, and the way some young Muslims are tempted to join in, on the web. The simple fact that both the Montreal massacre of 1989 and the Washington sniper both had a connection to Islam make the idea that there may be an Islamic sub-genre of the 'going postal' phenomenon.It is worth the effort of investigating at last any private writings, computer use of these individuals, if only as a contribution to criminology. Some of the more ferocious verses of the Koran might almost have been designed to egg on an incipient psychotic, particularly as they are regarded as the very word of god.

Posted by: wallyUK at February 18, 2007 11:23 PM

MORGAAN

PLEASE

STOP

WRITING

VERTICALLY

AND

IN

CAPITAL

LETTERS

IT

IS

VERY

ANNOYING

AND

CHILDISH

THANK

YOU

Posted by: Mike_W at February 18, 2007 11:34 PM

There has been distraction enough. There need not be any more.

Posted by: Hugh at February 18, 2007 11:35 PM

Morgaan Sinclair, while it is certainly your privilege to do so, the steadfast disregard you show for the Koran's near-constant exhortations that Muslims should commit violence upon the Kufar markedly reduce any impact your arguments might have.

Crimes like Dr. Barnett Slepian's murder and the ongoing abortion clinic bombings can certainly be held up as examples of fundamentalist Christian offenses, or even as cases of domestic terrorism, but their numbers absolutely pale when compared to the regularity with which we are confronted by American and foreign born Muslims committing similar, if not, far more vicious acts against our nation's public.

Can you so easily dismiss the Koran and its incessant call to arms as a factor in the many situations that fit the profile of Sudden Jihad Syndrome? If so, please be prepared to be dismissed with equal ease.

Posted by: Zenster at February 18, 2007 11:44 PM

Morgaaan Sinclaaaair: "THIS IS IRRESPONSIBLE YELLOW JOURNALISM, DESIGN TO TITILLATE."

Robert Spencer: "No, it isn't. I raised a possibility that needs raising."

And it needs raising because in our PC climate, it is not only not raised with sufficient diligence, it is too often actually suppressed or swept under the rug.

Posted by: remote_control at February 19, 2007 12:09 AM

They're going to have to be expected to come under scrutiny since 9-11.

They should have thought about it but it is quite clear they don't.

Their partaking in the "victimhood" so prevalent among the leftwingnuts is not helping their case any, either.

Posted by: abad at February 19, 2007 12:10 AM

P.S. Morgaaaaaaaaan Sinclaaaaaaaaaair also wrote: "My car got stolen for 15 minutes this afternoon and the first thing the police asked me was if the kid was Muslim."

I would bet all my money this is a baldfaced lie.

Posted by: remote_control at February 19, 2007 12:14 AM

P.S. Morgaaaaaaaaan Sinclaaaaaaaaaair also wrote: "My car got stolen for 15 minutes this afternoon and the first thing the police asked me was if the kid was Muslim."

I would bet all my money this is a baldfaced lie.

Posted by: remote_control at February 19, 2007 12:14 AM

no @hit,how do you get a car stolen for 15 minutes?

Posted by: Patriot8 at February 19, 2007 12:26 AM

remote -- Morgaan's first statement is a lie. He said, "Um....much as I deeply respect you, Robert"

All of his posts were dripping with disdain for Robert, so I would have to call him a liar too.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 12:31 AM

Morgaan hasn't shown ANY respect for Robert.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 12:34 AM

Comparing the abortion doctor killings to the on going threats, intimidation, murders, etc. by Muslim jihadists is a total joke. Does anyone here have any statistics on how many abortion doctors have been murdered by pro-lifers? I can't imagine there could have even been a dozen doctors murdered because of it, as I think back to when those situations were in the news, and I think I'm being generous. To compare that handful to the hundreds of thousands of people who've been murdered in the non-stop quest to destroy those who stand in the way of Islamic world domination in order to castigate Christians is a pitiful attempt to change the subject.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 12:44 AM

"Morgaan hasn't shown ANY respect for Robert."

Ummmm ... BIG CLUE: Morgaan isn't obliged to show any respect or courtesy, save for the fact that this is Robert's web site. Other than that, good grammar and factuality are all that really matter.

As noted in my own preceding post, a willful disregard for how the Koran encourages constant aggression by Muslims against Infidels would certainly seem to merit some sort of examination. Evidently not, for Morgaan, but let's not follow such an example, emkay?

Posted by: Zenster at February 19, 2007 12:49 AM

You're right -- Morgaan is under no obligation to show respect to Robert -- I was simply establishing his inclination to lie and deceive.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 12:55 AM

"Comparing the abortion doctor killings to the on going threats, intimidation, murders, etc. by Muslim jihadists is a total joke."

Isabellathecrusader, perhaps you did not manage to notice how that was my exact point.

"Does anyone here have any statistics on how many abortion doctors have been murdered by pro-lifers?"

Well below 3,000, if you get my drift. Once again:

[E]xamples of fundamentalist Christian offenses ... pale when compared to the regularity with which we are confronted by American and foreign born Muslims committing similar, if not, far more vicious acts against our nation's public.

[Editing for effect only]

Posted by: Zenster at February 19, 2007 12:56 AM

"I was simply establishing his inclination to lie and deceive."

As was I, champ. We are in violent agreement.

Posted by: Zenster at February 19, 2007 12:58 AM

Zenster,

I was just elaborating on what you said because it happens to be a subject that really pisses me off.

I most certainly did manage to notice what you said. That is why I elaborated on it. Itis also why I did not direct the comment to you specifically. Sheesh!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 1:00 AM

Zenmeister -- why do you HIGHLIGHT everyone's username? Annoying!

You don't mind if I call you Zenmeister do you?

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 1:07 AM

"To compare that handful to the hundreds of thousands of people who've been murdered" -- isabella

And it's not merely a quantitative difference (number of attacks and numbers of dead, though of course this alone matters immensely, at least to sane people unlike the Morgaans of the world): it's also the fact that the Muslim murders have been

1) spread out all over the globe

2) have had targets far more comprehensive than a lone doctor here or there or a clinic here or there, but whole and widely different cities, populations, countries, broad ways of life

and

3) are ideologically, socioculturally and often materially related to actual guerilla attacks and military invasions (the jihads in Indonesia, Algeria, Nigeria, Sudan, Balkans, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, etc.) in various regions of the world.

These three further qualities of Muslim violence around the world make even the utterance of an equation with abortion clinic violence (let alone ordinary crime statistics involving "Christians") not only ridiculous and detestable, but also downright dangerous -- to the extent they are socially influential -- for our cause of rational and righteous self-defense.

Posted by: remote_control at February 19, 2007 1:09 AM

Remote, I absolutely agree. I think people throw out those kind of fake statistics to shut the conversation down, because most people get tripped up if you say something about abortion doctors being murdered. I know a lot of pro-lifers who wouldn't hurt a flea, who really care about the women involved as well as the babies, but they are all some how reduced to sub-human when this issue of murdering abortion doctors arises. It's like calling someone anti-semitic or an Islamaphobe. The point is to effectively end the other person's right to speak and it usually does.

The other thing that I've noticed that doesn't get talked about anywhere but here is that when there is a major jihad going on in some country, those damned Islamists import jihadis from lots of other countries. I was searching for information about the shooter in Salt Lake City and came upon a site that talked about how in Bosnia and Kosovo, there were jihadis imported from all over the Middle East. Whens the last time you saw a bunch of Christians imported to some country to slaughter people?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 1:21 AM

Here's an interesting smorgasbord of information about our little buddy, Sulejman:

http://www.byzantinesacredart.com/blog/

I don't know about you all, but when my kids were in school nobody ever held a knife to their throats or threw stones at them. Wait a minute, who does things like that, based on their holy book, the Christians or the Muslims?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 1:27 AM

Let's all calm down and have some fun, dressing up Mohammed.

I'm sure Morgaan will enjoy this :)

http://www.muhammaddressup.com/

Posted by: Mike_W at February 19, 2007 1:28 AM

"Zenster,

I was just elaborating on what you said because it happens to be a subject that really pisses me off.

I most certainly did manage to notice what you said. That is why I elaborated on it. Itis also why I did not direct the comment to you specifically. Sheesh!"

No harm, no foul then, Isabella. I just did not want to be misinterpreted. (As I'm sure you would not, either.) Please rest assured that Morgaan's willful ignorance hacked me off as well.

"Zenmeister -- why do you HIGHLIGHT everyone's username? Annoying!"

To you, perhaps, but the practice of bolding usernames certainly makes it easier for folks to identify when they're being cited or addressed. Much like how I italicize all quotations or cited passages for clarity. Quite obviously, no offense intended, I hope. Just a habit of mine.

"You don't mind if I call you Zenmeister do you?"

I've been called worse, champ.

Posted by: Zenster at February 19, 2007 1:30 AM

Excellent commentary, remote_control.

Posted by: Zenster at February 19, 2007 1:33 AM

Alright Zenster. All is forgiven.

Here is an article from the link I posted above, but it has a ton of information on the other side of the coin, the victims, their friends' memories of them and the effect that the shooter has now had on all of their lives.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5248199

Oh, and also, does anyone else think it's a little weird that this kid who came from such a poor, perpetually oppressed family is getting a first class ticket back to Bosnia to be buried? And if he was so traumatized by the war back home, why would they want to bury him there? And is it just me or if one of your kids died wouldn't you want to be able to go and take care of the grave, keep it neat, say your prayers, bring flowers? Oh, wait a minute. No flowers. Just like laughter there are no flowers in Islam. And wasn't that really what he was mad about in the first place? Talk about a St. Valentines Day Massacre, albeit, a couple of days early.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 1:40 AM

"Talovic violated school rules when he looked up AK-47s on the Internet in November 2004 at Horizonte Instruction and Training Center, after which he dropped out of school."

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5253605

Oh, so I guess he did have access to a computer Morgaan.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 1:49 AM

"These three further qualities of Muslim violence around the world make even the utterance of an equation with abortion clinic violence (let alone ordinary crime statistics involving "Christians") not only ridiculous and detestable, but also downright dangerous -- to the extent they are socially influential -- for our cause of rational and righteous self-defense."

I must agree. Please examine the lunatic ravings of Rosie O'Donnell as she idiotically attempts to place the threat of Christian fundamentalism above that of Islamism. Rosie, who'd have her head cut off first by those whose acts she seeks to downplay. Go figure.

"Oh, and also, does anyone else think it's a little weird that this kid who came from such a poor, perpetually oppressed family is getting a first class ticket back to Bosnia to be buried?"

Yes, there are far more deserving casualties who should be given such preferential treatment at this point. The scorpion I crushed last week springs to mind.

Posted by: Zenster at February 19, 2007 1:55 AM

One more thing about why I think this is religiously motivated, that this kid obviously wasn't planning to come back alive. He had plans to kill and then be killed. He must have known that walking through that mall with three sides exposed to whoever might be behind him made him a sitting duck. He must have known that there would be some brave guy who would not put up with it and go after him. No, he was getting something out of his actions, 72 virgins perhaps?

It's late. Goodnight everybody.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 1:59 AM

Mike_W

You beat me to it.

Aside from the car being stolen for a mere 15 minutes, am I the only one who finds it laughable that Morgaan is asked by the cops whether the thief was Muslim?

One more accusation from Morgaan of us

DESTROYING

THIS

INSANE

KID'S

FAMILY.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

And the real hidden agenda here is to try to smear the Bosnians and Kosovars and anybody else that's Muslim in the Balkans in support of the Serbs, and possibly their Orthodox religion, to TRUMP UP SUPPORT FOR SERB CONTROL OF KOSOVO.

Thank you, Sulejman (I think)!

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 19, 2007 3:42 AM

Sheesh. Regarding "Morgan Sinclair" -- if you guys don't recognize a crypto-Muslim by now, you never will. Note the increasing hysteria of response, the inability to recognize calm, pointed rebuttals, the name-calling, the irrational, hairsbreadth-close-to-violence frothing that comes across even in print. If "Sinclair" were a taxi driver, you'd be diving for the curb right about now.

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at February 19, 2007 4:05 AM

Morgaan Sinclair ...

Spews forth copious amounts of victimazation compassion for the TALOVIC FAMILY and the KILLER (which is not in question ... he did the crime) but not a single tear for the 9 dead REAL VICTIMS!

And what for? Because Robert asked questions.

How dare you Mr. Spencer!

Posted by: Jack at February 19, 2007 4:12 AM

Dear JihadWatch,

please note that Christians in Bosnia are still the majority, not the minority. According to the last census before the war, there were:

- around 55%-60% Christians / Christian atheists (45% Serbs and 15% Croats)
- around 40% Muslims

Regards,

Posted by: Serbian girl at February 19, 2007 4:42 AM

Lets see here, "Terrorism" is NOUN:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

"Islamic" is NOUN:

1. A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.

1. The people or nations that practice Islam; the Muslim world.
2. The "civilization" developed by the Muslim world.

"Jihad" is NOUN:

1. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
2. A crusade or struggle: "The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke" (Fortune).

Looks to me like Talovic conforms to all of these definitions, hence he seems to be an islamic jihadi terrorist.

All definitions from the "American Heritage Dictionary"

I have about as much use for PC bull crap as I do for moslems.

الموت الى الاسلام!

Posted by: Rowane at February 19, 2007 5:21 AM

Hey Morgaan Sinclair
alias Gerald Reynolds
alias 'Mohammed'
Get your own handle instead of borrowing mine...
Have news for ya' from several other blogs.
1. Tavolic's daddy was in the Bosnian Muslim Army.
2.Why did this kid sport a 'Wahhabi beard' or was this just 5 o'clock shadow?
3. How did this teenager get hold of guns & ammunition??
Guess you know ALL the answers Morgaan.Your petulant display of temper and rudeness towards Mr Spencer have done nothing to advance your cause.

Posted by: Morgane at February 19, 2007 6:04 AM

...Muslims just simply hate the truth....Ban Muslim Immigration...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 19, 2007 6:38 AM

Well, just go back to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, wasn't he deemed a religious threat ? I see, the FBI doesn't want to talk about that, or if muslims are a threat ? No, it's only Christians that are a threat.

Posted by: Jeff at February 19, 2007 6:50 AM

Well it would suprise people that most of the terror commited is commited by Muslims. When anyone who is either a Christian or Jewish commits a crime, it is not because the Bible commands the commiting of such crimes. As a matter of fact, the Bible forbides the commiting of both sins/crimes. It is not the case with the Koran.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 19, 2007 7:12 AM

The Koran even blesses and commands such sins/crimes to be commited.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 19, 2007 7:15 AM

Isn't political [in]correctness wonderful?

Instead of Who, What, When, Where, and Why we get 'this is our agenda'. We must protect the poor innocent Muslim(s).

Those radical racist islamophobics should have made a more reasonable effort to avoid the bullets [the knife, the explosives, the vehicle]. Why should a Muslim be publicly humiliated by having infidels at the same shopping mall?

Posted by: getrealnow4 at February 19, 2007 8:11 AM

I wonder if orders from the White House have been issued regarding the treatment of news stories involving Muslim violence in the USA.
The powers-that-be may have decided that too much truthfulness in reporting could inflame the seething hatred that many informed Americans already have for the twisted ideology of extremist Islam.
Perhaps they feel that this battle will enter the streets if more of us know the extent of Islamic intolerance and violence opposing us regularly.
So the MSM follows the toned-down omission pattern established by the EU media, but to no avail...the jihad advances daily around the world and on our own soil, regardless of how we call it out in the press.
By attempting to protect us from ourselves, our leaders do us a great disservice by postponing the inevitable.
How many more must die before the "confront, curtail, contain, comport" elements are undertaken by citizens?
With no outright hatred for the system that created jihad, can we stand up against this attempted domination?

Posted by: HawkWatcher at February 19, 2007 8:18 AM

the media knows its unsafe to criticize islam, and so it goes after Christianity. look how they went after the mormon from utah who had his hand in marrying off girls to old men, and how the media made such a spectacle of this. the media does not have the same zeal to go after muslim hehaviour ie, honour killings, multiple wives, etc. the media is soft on terror. so wise people have turned them out and get their news from sites such as JihadWatch. hats off to them!

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at February 19, 2007 8:46 AM

Frank, gotta go. So if you respond I won't see it until tomorrow. So please don't be offended if I don't answer ... Paper to write. Always another dadburned paper to write.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 18, 2007 04:05 PM

Wow, M. Sinclair
You had a busy evening last nite. Wrote a paper, had your car stolen, (I will inject a few assumptions), ate dinner, maybe some prayers, read Jihadwatch, yell at Robert.
And be back on-line by 8:52pm.

Posted by: auntbea at February 19, 2007 9:10 AM

Ms. Sinclair believes what she believes. Unfortunately, we cannot change her mind. She read something into Robert's post, that I frankly don't see, but, thats her opinion, I guess.

As I see it, Muslims have only a few choices:

1. Wage jihad against all infidels.

2. Sit back and let others wage jihad against all infidels, while never condemning those who do, until they are made to wage jihad against all infidels.

3. Renounce Islam and jihad and possibly be killed for their efforts.

It appears as though this young man has chosen #1.

Posted by: igetit at February 19, 2007 9:28 AM

Hey, Geraldmorgaaaaaaaaan--- YO mamas calling. Your not playing nice AT ALL!

This was touched on a little in an early post.

In this current world People of all religions commit murders for a variety of reasons, I dare say they are not instructed to do so by their "religion"----EXCEPT ISLAM!

Non Muslims commit crimes for dozens of reasons but not BECAUSE of their religion.

The number of murders commited by Christians BECAUSE of their beliefs is a tiny fraction compared to the, at least, 100's of thousands, and probably millions of Muslims who commit murders driven BECAUSE of their religion!

You cant stand this, can you!! Proven to be wrong so many times!! Why dont you take a few pills, lay down with a cool wash rag on your head, and contemplate why this makes you so mad.

I pray this doesnt drive you into a typical demon inspired rage and go commit murders on your own.

With the fact of thousands and thousands of Islamic inspired murders, is it any wonder that when a terrible demonic act commited by this sad teen is reported in the media, at least the POSSIBILITY it might be Islamicly inspired comes to mind. Ask your self that, Morgie.

Posted by: guide inside at February 19, 2007 9:31 AM

Well said Robert.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at February 19, 2007 10:18 AM

Serbian Girl --

Christian atheists? That's a new one.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 10:32 AM

Isnt it obvious what is happening? Law, politics, public service and the media over the last 20 + years has decided to cover up the crimes of the islamists. The result is that Christians are now being compared to these murderous rats, smeared with the brush they have tried so hard not to use on the islamists. Blowback is coming no doubt about it. The people I speak with are figuring out that they have just as much to worry about in them as they do the islamists. The islamists I can understand, they follow their book. The others I can’t understand, its no longer PC or MC BS it is accessory to murder, in the press, in law, in politics, they are simply murderous traitors. Attention all Christians in America, some in public service(puke) are attempting to make comparisons between you and the islamists. Its straight outta the Bible, when I was 12 I understood that in the end the Christians would be smeared, lied about and finally murdered. It is happening as we speak and if we are to survive we must throw these despicable nothings out of our country. If we allow them to stay we will eventually lose it all including our lives. Rosie and her homo pals have defined the Christians in the media and the media agrees with her. And people wonder why so many want nothing to do with them or their pathetic lifestyle. I used to believe in tolerance of them but that was when they were only concerned about who their next sexual partner would be, now they have decided to jump in on the side of the islamists. Well don’t cry too much when you are turned over to these same islamists never to be seen again. Just as the Protocols led to a century of slaughter of the Jews, so we see the same thing happening with the Christians now. Are we going to allow these rats no matter where they exist to offer us up for slaughter? I say these people are worse than Bundy, worse than Hitler, worse than the devil himself.

Posted by: tgusa at February 19, 2007 10:58 AM

tgusa -- I have nothing to add but a hardy AMEN!

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 11:18 AM

tgusa -- troll alert! Go to the thread, "84,000 Canadian Muslims......" and look for a post by someone named mediaforpeaceandtolerance -- it's a long one.

This guy will get your blood boiling! Your skill in fighting the enemy are needed over there. Thanks!

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 11:37 AM

Robert, if you think people can't see past the ? when you conflate this kid's name with known terrorists, then you underestimate people. They're just not that stupid.

"Principles before partners." -- Ronald Reagan

And that means I will always have to put a sense of justice ahead of whether you're willing to keep communicating once you're criticized.

And, I note, "goodbye."

All right. But you might not want to throw away friends because they don't always agree with you.

But I'm OK with that if you do, because I know who I am and what I stand for and the level of integrity about it that I have no matter what happens, and I'm completely comfortable with that.

I wish you and your family the very best.

Peace and Light ...

Goodbye,
Morgaan

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 19, 2007 12:15 PM

I called you a liar too, so add me to your stupid law suite.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 12:27 PM

Morgaan --

Stop lying, and then no one would have to confront you on it. You are ridiculous, too, so sue me for that remark also.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 12:36 PM

remote --

Morgaan is full of crap, so don't let his bullying-blog get to you. "Morgaan Sinclair" is not his real name -- therefore his NAME was never dragged through the mud -- so he/she doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

Go pound sand somewhere else, Mo. And guess what, we won't miss you.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 12:45 PM

Champ, Morgaan Sinclair is my real, legal name. I am a 58-year-old woman with a son back from Afghanistan. I own my own company as a freelance writer and book editor. I am Managing Editor of a forthcoming Harvard journal and am simultaneously a Humanities student at UMaryland and a graduate student in environental management and creative writing at Harvard. I have written book reviews for The Weekly Standard and The New York Post under the name Morgana Sinclair because that twit Stephen Schwartz told The Weekly Standard to change the spelling without my permission. Now, if you want to talk to somebody about it, talk to my son and the 10th Mountain Division. I'm done talking to you people who have Sudden Bigot Syndrome every time you can attach a Muslim name to anything that goes wrong in the country.

In case you don't own TWS premium membership, here is a free reference:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_8_11/ai_n15882778

Now, Mr. Brave, what's YOUR name?

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at February 19, 2007 1:04 PM

champ,

there are plenty of people in exYugoslavia (and elsewhere in Europe) who would define themselves as atheists, in Bosnia they´d be mostly of Serbian (thus Christian) descendancy. Muslims were more than glad to count them to this newly established nation of "Bosnians" (a recently invented brand name, just like "Palestinians", now they claim that Bosnia belongs to them: "Bosnians", and that Serbs and Croats are intruders). Needless to say, those atheists of Serbian and thus Christian descendancy (that I briefly called "Christian atheists) do not share in any respect Islamic views, they also hardly could share the views of those Muslims who would describe themselves as secular. Because also the secular Muslims in Bosnia believe that Muslims and only people of Muslim descendance should run the state, while others can participate only as supporting actors.

If you read Oriana Fallaci books, which I can only recommend, you will also find passages where she describes herself as a Christian atheist. So this is nothing new or exotic in Europe. Only a minority of Europeans would describe themselves straightaway as "Christians", - still the views of those so called secular Moslems, Moslems for identification purposes only and those atheists of Christian descendancy are two different worlds.

Possibly Europe needs re-Christianization in order to defend itself, - I personally support this approach. But this re-Christianization could be hardly expected to happen within the EU. But this is another topic.

I only wanted to draw attention to the fact that Muslims are not the majority in Bosnia and that they love to blow their numbers (especially that they have hardly any cultural, scientific and civilizational achievements). Bosnia should not be seen as a lost case, which people in the West tend to do, especially when they believe that the majority of its population is anywhy Muslim and Christians only a minority.

Posted by: Serbian girl at February 19, 2007 1:04 PM

champ,
Where do we start? I am sick of countering their propaganda, I’m sick of hearing about them, reading about them, dealing with them, I’m sick of their whining, their constant perception of insult. I am sick of their pushing their beliefs on us all. I’m sick of seeing them come here along with their four ninja wives. Face it I’m sick of them period, peaceful or not. They have absolutely nothing to contribute to this country. They take, take, take, they are the epitome of the destructive immigrant. They don’t immigrate, they don’t assimilate, they invade, and eventually they start their killing. It happens where ever they are present, there is no exception. So if they kill 5 and gravely wound four but lose only one that is a war of attrition. And make no mistake they target women, to limit child bearing, children to limit population growth. Our so called leaders have imported monsters into our midst, many, many, many must be held accountable.

Posted by: tgusa at February 19, 2007 1:07 PM

Serbian --

Don't make me laugh, there is no such thing as a "Christian atheist" because a TRUE CHRISTIAN has faith in God -- whereas an atheist doesn't BELIEVE in a God at all (I can't believe I'm explaining this to you).

Tgusa -- I hear ya! The battle belongs to the Lord, and one day He will clean up this mess.

Morgaan --

I own a business too, but I would never post it on JW because I have WAY more integrity than that -- unlike some people.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 1:29 PM

Morgaan --

You're obviously wasting your God-given talent for debate on JW. Why not start your own website and call it, "Anti-Jihad Watch: Where Muslims Are Our Friends". You could even use an ostrich with his (or her) head in the sand as your logo.

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 2:02 PM

I thought earlier Morgaan's posts had the typical hysterical self-righteousness and self-obsessed narcissistic qualities of a typical young lefty liberal arts college student, fresh from a political indoctrination class by the likes of Noam Chomsky or Ward Churchill.
It appears I wasn't far wrong but Morgaan's age is surprising. Most people have grown up by the time they reach 58.

Personally I thought Morgaan's story about the stolen car and policeman asking if a Muslim did iit had a definite "fake but true" ring to it.
With the left it's all about the truthiness.
The end justifies the truthiness.
I hope you took that policeman's name and number Morgaan and reported him to his superiors for the bigoted, racist, fascist he obviously is.

Posted by: Mike_W at February 19, 2007 2:10 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 2:29 PM

I apologize for using the "B" word -- is "Bully" OK?

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 2:50 PM

Yes, "bully" is fine. (In the early 20th-century usage of the word, it's perfectly... bully!)

The other word is not. Brings down the property value-- the verbal equivalent of tossing car parts on the lawn (and maybe an El Camino up on blocks).

Posted by: MarisolJW at February 19, 2007 3:07 PM

Thanks -- I will respect the ground rules :)

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 3:11 PM

dms -- oh man!

Posted by: champ at February 19, 2007 3:13 PM

Good grief. I will add that to my no no words. Sorry.

Posted by: dms at February 19, 2007 3:13 PM

How about if I say menopause does strange things to some women. Would that be okay. I'm serious.

Posted by: dms at February 19, 2007 3:18 PM

DMS,

As to the menopause comment, now you're starting to sound like a Muslim, as in, women are less than men because they have a period. I really don't think you want to go down that road. A woman with PMS could slit your gullett, pull out your guts, cook them up and serve them on a platter before you knew anything was missing.

Please, for your own safety, change the subject.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 19, 2007 3:29 PM

Dms -- I think it's an unkind thing to speculate on in a discussion that's already been needlessly personal, and, at times, mean-spirited.

But it's not the worst thing I've seen, and the language is cleaned up, so I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: MarisolJW at February 19, 2007 3:33 PM

So sorry--I was trying to find an excuse for her behavior and it backfired on me. I will try to be more politically correct in future. Thanks. dms

Posted by: dms at February 19, 2007 3:41 PM

Isabella,sorry if I offended you. I am just an old lady who is very direct. Guess I need to learn my place in polite society.

Posted by: dms at February 19, 2007 4:50 PM

On a previous thread, Morgaan Sinclair wrote:

"It's interesting that I hear this about all this bias, and twice a week I have dinner and melon margueritas with four Harvard professors who are "supposedly" so Liberal but who entertain every argument I have with total respect."

We can see why she gets along famously with the illiberally Leftist Harvard professors -- I'm sure she and they could spend hours waxing anti-Occidental, in heated agreement about how profoundly, spectacularly evil the West has been for so many centuries.

Posted by: remote_control at February 19, 2007 4:54 PM

dms -- Isabella has a double standard, so don't let her get to you. Notice how she criticized you for mentioning menopause, but then she freely described women on pms as being capable of "slitting your throat".

Stick up for yourself.