What are the Islamophiles gonna do when they can no longer throw Indonesia and Turkey in our faces as 'proof' that Islam can be moderate, secular, and democratic?

Just like any other time in history, whenever an Islamic society strays from the core tenets of the faith, the ummah puts things right with a vengeance. Pluralism? Tolerance? Equality?

Blasphemy!

Posted by: Ibn_Iblis at March 3, 2007 4:57 PM

One twist on this. In 2003 the Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono government was voted in on an ANTI-ISLAMIC, pro-Pancasila vote. By a landslide. Pancasila is the doctrine adopted in the 1945 consitution, and formulated by Sukarno. Pancasila holds that the state religion of Indonesia is the "god CONCEPT" that is syncretism of beliefs of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholic and Protestants (they consider the last two to be two different religions). There was an attempt in 1945 to declare an Islamic state, and it failed by the vote of the Muslim majority.

Now fast-forward to 2003. Megawatti the FEMALE MUSLIM PRIME MINISTER (four major Muslim states have elected female prime ministers, so obviously the interpretation of some allows for thsi), was chucked out of office for massive corruption. Yudhoyono was elected by a landslide, and Yudhoyono was the strongly anti-terrorist minister of state security. So, the Indonesians voted in the one guy who was the strongest anti-Al Qaeda guy in the country.

Meanwhile, the GAM militia had for two decades fought a war for independence in Aceh Province that was NOT a war of Islamic secession. It was an economic war to prevent the Indonesian government from continuing to take nearly all the oil revenues from fossil-rich Aceh and leave the massive population in dire poverty. GAM won and the Indonesian government granted virtual autonomy to the region.

And then they made an incredible blunder. The Indonesian government declare that no GAM could run for office in Aceh and exiled the GAM leadership from the province.

In a replay of the oft-repeated Islamic misery called "NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM" the radical Islamists rushed in to fill the vacuum. As only group other than GAM who were highly organized, and funded from abroad, the Islamists swept Aceh's elections.

Realizing the blunder, in the fall elections of 2005, the Indonesian government certified the candidacies of the previously banned GAM. One GAM leader, in exile, railed against Islamist power in Aceh province saying that 20 years of deaths of Indonesians was not about putting radical Islamist scum (his term) into office to abuse people.

Now this man is the governor of Aceh, and has just taken office. Hopefully, something will come of this.

But meanwhile, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has been routinely caving to the demands of radicals over education and the mummifying of women in heavy dress. He is sacrificing one school after another to Islamist control and he is not defending women who are being beaten into cover by an Indonesia radical minority. And it is a minority. And Robert is right that this minority is quoting the Qur'an right down to how you they brush their teeth.

The Indonesian press is interesting to cover because it is a free press. Therefore, there, like in Bangladesh, you can read the railings of the moderates against this trend for yourself.

Asianew.com is a good source for this. There are powerful and growing groups opposed to the imposition of shari'a law and a thriving group of women's symposia of teachers, lawyers, and Islamic theorists who are fighting the encroachment of radical Islamism even as the government, obviously elected by the Indonesian people on the promise it would fight the advance of radical Islamic teaching, caves.

It's not mine to say who will win or lose the world's most populous Islamic country, but I am encouraged by the fact that on the anniversary of the Bali bombings, the parents of the Indonesians killed stormed the prison where the arsonists were held to kill them for what they'd done. They were held back by police, which I imagine is what they have to do. But it marks in strong relief the feeling of what I think is most of the people there.

But the government's caving on this stuff is like blood to a shark for the radicals. Every place you give them ground, they will only try to take more, so appeasement is only for those who are so cowardly they will take today and give you tomorrow.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at March 3, 2007 5:04 PM

Though most people in the world's most populous Muslim nation practice a tolerant form of the faith, a small but determined group of conservatives are chipping away at the sprawling archipelago's secular traditions and trying to reshape it in the image of orthodox Middle Eastern countries.

Is anyone else sick and effing tired of the mainstream media's constant characterization of Muslim majority nations as "tolerant" societies whose legal system is under assault by radicals or conservatives?

If it were a case of "assault", where are any staunch defenders of the status quo who actively revile such vandalism of their legal rights?

And they are slowly gaining ground, in part, critics say, because President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, liberal Muslim leaders and society at large have stayed away from loud, public debate on the issue....

Ah yes, the usual deafening silince from so-called moderate Muslims.

Robert: "But why would they be labeled un-Islamic, if the true Islam is against all this?"

A question for the ages and one that will probably be a source of lively debate long after the West has been forced to exterminate Islam out of sheer self-preservation.

He insists the Islamic laws do not violate the constitution or Indonesia's state ideology Pancasila, which promotes multiculturalism and religious harmony.

Big clue: Indonesia's Pancasila ain't working too well. All of this was made crystal clear by their mitigation of Abu Bakr Bashir's jail sentence for complicity in the Bali atrocity. No better indication of Indonesia's lack of sincerity in fighting terrorism was needed than that single slap-in-the-face for the West.

The next time they are hit with a Tsunami, we need to tell them to go whistle.

Posted by: Zenster at March 3, 2007 5:04 PM

So does this mean that the Democrats who have Junior Ellison elected and President Bush telling us along with the media that Islam is moderate will now be passing laws which.......

Will toss Hillary and Pelosi in jail for being out in public alone?
Beat everyone in Las Vegas with a cane for gambling?
Make Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and D. James Kennedy all wear scarfs saying they are Christians?

Wonder what Islamic punishment is in store for sexual predator Bill Clinton, pervert Hugh Hefner, mocking David Letterman and earth worshipper Al Gore?

Yup progressive Islam the liberal ideal embraced here, nippled by communists and fascists across the globe and on the march. 1 billion people can't be wrong can they?

Posted by: Lame Cherry at March 3, 2007 5:13 PM

the "moderate muslim" is fast becoming the "unicorn", we heard of them, seen pictures of them, but have you actually seen one alive?

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at March 3, 2007 5:47 PM

Zenster, actually Pancasila worked well for quite a long time. But the radicals who tried to create an Islamic state, and failed in 1945, haven't forgotten the "dream".

My professor of Iranian history talked about how the Iranian governors in the early 1900s used to hold big banquets DURING THE DAY during Ramadan and eat pork just to show the mullahs who was boss. Then, he said, "in 1979 they paid them back with a vengeance."

That's why every attempt at chipping away things like Pancasila has to be opposed steadfastly.

Meanwhile, it's good to remember that the Indonesians elected Yudhoyono to PROTECT Pancasila and they did it by a landslide. And I think that does indicate they don't want to live in a radical Islamist regime.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at March 3, 2007 6:00 PM

To Morgaan Sinclair,

If your still on this thread, I was wondering, do you currently lived or have lived in indonesia? If so, I would love to hear the reasons why you're optimistic indonesia can resist islamization.

From what I've heard, indonesians may not be as fanaitcal as saudis or pakistanis, but their still share the same characteristics that define islamization, i,e, intolerance of hindus, christians, and irrational hatred of american policies, the state of israel, and "the evil zionists", often extended to mean all jews. Perhaps only the arabists on coastal java, sumatra and sulawesi feel this way, and not muslims like NU members and the "pseudo" muslims, i.e. muslims in name who are essentially hindus or animists. What would you say?

I have heard some good news stories, truth be told. In sulawesi, there are large numbers of muslims becoming christian and in East Java and Kalimantan and Lombok they are becoming hindus. Even among traditional muslims like the NU, you have former leaders like Wahid trying to get them to be more tolerant of israel, christians and the jews.

You think indonesians, within NU and elsewhere, will actually listen to his words or not? I doubt it, seing has how muslims are so easy to brainwash into irrational hatred.

Lastly, do you see indonesians as having any potential to resist arabization? I've heard that indonesians often were antagonistic towards arabs, but ithey are more and more growing to idolize and want to be just like arabs. That explains their desire to dress arabic, talk arabic, shun-preisamic javanese culture and feel such sympathy to arabs and hatred to jews over the israeli conflict, which they no nothing about.

Case in point, I've heard one survey say that indonesians, when asked what the most important concern for their country should be, answered making israel give "palestians" an undeserved homeland. Even more so in fact, said so in indoensia than in egypt or saudi arabia. Personally I think that's horrifying, more proof that islam too often turns otherwise bright people into complete dumba$$es. Any chance a good number of indonesians will be able to at least acknowledge the lunacy of this trend, reverse it and one day learn to respect israel like they would any other nation? Or is this just another pipe dream?

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at March 3, 2007 6:26 PM

Where is Dinesh now? What is his opinion of the great democracy that is called Indonesia, the world's most populous democracy?

"Meanwhile, it's good to remember that the Indonesians elected Yudhoyono to PROTECT Pancasila and they did it by a landslide. And I think that does indicate they don't want to live in a radical Islamist regime."

Morgaan,
I hope you're right but a better question is whether the Indonesians are willing to fight for their rights and their freedoms. Will rule of law prevail or will it prove to be a figment? The question will always be: where are they when the chips are down? They SAY they don't want an Islamist regime, but how serious are they?.

Why were you encouraged that the parents of Indonesians who died at Bali were willing to take the law into their own hands and commit murder? Don't you believe in rule of law?

(Please pardon the cynicism.) How many of these parents are only upset that THEIR child died and not that the bombing occurred in the first place? Would they try to kill the bombers if the only people who had died were foreigners? We'll never know.

Posted by: PMK at March 3, 2007 6:30 PM

"Meanwhile, it's good to remember that the Indonesians elected Yudhoyono to PROTECT Pancasila and they did it by a landslide. And I think that does indicate they don't want to live in a radical Islamist regime."

Please excuse me for being trite but; That was then, this is now.

Indonesia mitigating Bashir's jail sentence was an undeniable admission of fealty to Islam. There was absolutely no compelling reason for them to do such a thing, regardless of their national independence day traditions. Bashir's connections to the Bali atrocity were numerous and obvious.

Few other actions could send so defiant a message to those who fight Islamic terrorism.

Posted by: Zenster at March 3, 2007 6:52 PM

"Would they try to kill the bombers if the only people who had died were foreigners?"

Sterling question, PMK. Absolutely spot effing on.
(I presume by "foreigners", that you mean "kufar".)

Posted by: Zenster at March 3, 2007 6:55 PM

When the Free world finally wakes up to the Islamic take-overs, it'll be too late. Every Free country has to set boundaries of protection, even our own constitution has boundry problems.

Posted by: Jeff at March 3, 2007 7:37 PM

Until after World War II, Islam was held in check, more or less, by the Dutch authorities, who were sensible enough to enlist the intelligent guidance, for a while, of a certain C. Snouck Hurgronje, of the University of Leiden, possibly the greatest Orientalist since Ignaz Goldziher. While not entirely unsympathetic to some Muslims who had been born into Islam and were struggling with it, and with its obvious effect on the exercise of mental freedom, including artistic expression, he was not fooled in the slightest about the doctrines of Islam, and never confused the inability to put into practical effect those doctrines at a time of maximum weakness vis-a-vis the Infidels. And if the Dutch helped create an atmosphere in which the power of Islam was suppressed, the history of Islam in the Dutch East Indies also made for greater syncretism.

After all, it was not outright military conquest, in the 7th and 8th centuries, as in most of the MIddle East and North Africa, by Muslims, that caused the East Indies to be populated by Muslims. Rather, five or six centuries later, when the rulers of Java and Sumatra were converted to Islam (the first significant group of Muslims in the East Indies being Hadrami traders in Java, who set up trading entrepots, and then slowly began to send out missionaries, some as part of military incursions, into the hinterland). But the East Indies, originally Hindu and Buddhist, were slow to succumb. The same kind of violence that had been used, or could be threatened, elsewhere was not possible. The Dutch interval, in which Christian missionaries were protected (as, in East Timor, the Portuguese overlords protected the missionaries who could work in conditions that permitted locals to convert without fear of death), also contributed to that "soft" Islam that one assocaites with Indonesia -- but "soft" only up to a point, and becoming "harder" every day, and in any case it was never quite as "soft" as Westerners seem to think.

But now, the longer from the Dutch period one gets, and the more that Muslims in Indonesia, like Muslims everywhere, are more easily reached by the new means of disseminating the full and dangerous texts of Islam, where before the simple and illiterate villagers might have been Muslims, but knew very little, beyond the Five Pillars, of what that might mean. Now they have thrust in their ears and before their eyes incessant Muslim propaganda, that makes it harder and harder to avoid hearing, and having to take in, and being naturally swayed by, not a false Islam, not an Islam that has been "hijacked by extremists," but the full Islam that was always there, and yet, when Muslims were weak, and lacked the money and technological means to disseminate that full message, was in some places not fully known or understood.

And now, alas, Muslim money and appropriation of Western technology has meant for Muslims in the farthest islands, can now be reached by the campaigners intent on disseminating to sometimes inattentive Muslims the full teachings of Islam, with the deadly results observable in Bali, and the Moluccas, and many other islands in the East Indian archipelago.

Posted by: Hugh at March 3, 2007 7:40 PM

Our attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq are seen as attacks on their faith? So, in response they want to turn Indonesia into a Taliban-like hell-hole as a way of asserting their identity? Are Indonesians a bunch of emotionally retarded adolescents rebelling against a Western parental role model?
More likely, a core of stupid Islamo-fascists are busily engaged in reprimitivizing society in accordance with seventh-century Arab bandit culture.
Indonesia, paradise lost...to Islam.

Posted by: jewdog at March 3, 2007 8:05 PM

What was the effect of the Suharto regime, a military dictatorship (or authoritarian regime), in suppressing Islamism?
Although not an exact parallel, Indonesia, Iran and Turkey have striking similarities - Cold War allies of the US led by dictators or authoritarians. Once the "evil" dictator is disposed of, Islamism flowers. Iraq followed a similar pattern, the only difference being that it was a Soviet ally.
It suggests that Islamism is always just beneath the surface of any Muslim society and only a strong secular government can prevent it from coming to power. We need to get over our queasiness at supporting governments that are less than pure and don't meet the exacting standards of people like Jimmy Carter.

Posted by: PMK at March 3, 2007 11:41 PM

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

Meanwhile, it's good to remember that the Indonesians elected Yudhoyono to PROTECT Pancasila and they did it by a landslide. And I think that does indicate they don't want to live in a radical Islamist regime.

And since he has been elected,Sharia has been introduced to at least one district (Proposini)

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/01/slaves-of-shaytan.html

Posted by: shiva at March 4, 2007 5:18 AM

How sad. For 10 years I supported a beautiful foster child and her family in South Sulawesi. She attended school and used to send me letters with lovely pencil drawings of flowers. If she wasn't swept away by the sunami, she will probably end up as a good muslima zombie wife with many children she can't afford to feed.

I will never support any charities in muslim countries again.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at March 4, 2007 6:33 AM

Let's don't overestimate the "peaceful" past of Indonesia, especially with regards to their "soft" islam.
Right after Suharto's grip to power in 1965 e.g. a massive ethnic cleansing of presumably communists began which basically ended in a genocide for the Chinese minority. Numbers differ from 100.000 to 500.000 dead.
And let's don't forget that muslim organisations like Nahdatul Ulama were spearheading the cleansing at that time. Indonesian chinese were and are for the major part nonmuslims and happen to have
a great weight in the indonesian economy. Being infidel and rich and a minority in a muslim majority neighbourhood....
I doubt that the hatred for communism was the main insipiration of that time.
Sounds just as reasonable and reliable as the Afghan mudshahedin's hatred for communism. It obviously didn't stop them from instantly switching to communism's arch enemy and their former ally - the capitalist US. Both infidels in the end.

Posted by: flibustier at March 4, 2007 7:22 AM

"(the first significant group of Muslims in the East Indies being Hadrami traders in Java, who set up trading entrepots, and then slowly began to send out missionaries,"

.....The Muslims of today are entering as students, convenience store owners, taxi cab drivers, gas station attendents, arriving slowly one Muslim at time, taking over one neighborhood at a time, building up voting blocks capable of electing Muslims into places or positions of power, slowly, ever so slowly, confiscating all the land, building up power blocks and pockets of strength. They begin to bully their neighbors , make a mockery of our law, encourage confrontation....secretly they are arming, one day their daily vocal tirades will become the violent tirades Israel sees every day, the violent tirades the few Christians remaining in Muslim contries see, the violent tirades the countries bordering Muslim countries see....

...it is as clear as my ugly reflection on the mirror. Islam and Muslims must be banned...

Ban Muslim Immigration now,, you do not want these people in your neighborhood...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at March 4, 2007 10:14 AM

"Indonesian chinese were and are for the major part nonmuslims and happen to have a great weight in the indonesian economy. Being infidel and rich and a minority in a muslim majority neighbourhood...."

Rich infidel minority in a Muslim majority = Wealthy Jews in Nazi Germany

Posted by: Zenster at March 4, 2007 11:57 AM

"Rich infidel minority in a Muslim majority = Wealthy Jews in Nazi Germany"

...it took only a few years to loot the wealth JEWS and to remove them, never to be seen again...by the way, it was the Muslims who helped the Nazis design the consentration camps and to design the gas chambers.....The Muslims even asked the Germans to deport Jews to the Middle East where the Muslims could attack and kill them off...

Muslims hate the truth....

Ban Muslim immigration now...you do not want these people in your neighborhood...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at March 4, 2007 1:08 PM

My answer to Morgaan Sinclair’s comments of March 02, 2007:

I was born and grew up in Indonesia, and I know that Morgaan Sinclair is wrong and misleading in almost all of his/her comments.

Pancasila is NOT anti-Islamic, it is just pluralistic; it tolerates Islam as well as other (monotheistic) religions. It was formulated by Sukarno, but hijacked by all political parties, including the Islamic parties, for their own purpose. Attempts to declare an Islamic state occurred NOT ONLY in 1945, but throughout the whole years until especially TODAY. After a failed attempt of megalomanic Sukarno to stand on its own, Indonesian leaders are doing nothing else but to balance between two great powers, USA and China. Islam is a third emerging power, but still considered too weak to rely upon. Most important of all, the Indonesian leaders need money from USA and the West to build up and maintain their personal wealth.

The present President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono is nothing else but a good follower of the former dictator Suharto, both deriving their power from their military roots. It is a disastrous mistake to consider Yudhoyono as a strong anti-terrorist person. Like Soeharto, he also is using the indigenous Islamic force, a large part of which consists of fundamentalists and hardliners, as a leverage or hostage against USA and the West, and to hold off the Chinese minority from dominating the politics. He will support al-Qaeda as soon as he feels the situation is mature for a shift of his present balancing act between USA and China. His recent caving-in to the demands of the radicals is a strong indication of this gradual shift; in the future it will grow more conspicuous commensurate with the growth of Islamic power in the Middle East.

Islamic radicals in Indonesia is NOT a minority, but (almost) a majority. The well-educated intellectuals as well as the wealthy Muslim middle and upper classes are fundamentalists, who increasingly support Wahhabism and al-Qaeda. Currently they stop short before perpetrating and supporting terror acts, but will soon change if the situation is considered mature. The truly moderate Indonesian Muslims are the low-class uneducated people, who can not afford to become true Muslims, the latter demanding proficiency in Arabic in order to understand al-Quran, plenty of time to pray five times a day, plenty of money to make pilgrim to Mecca and to fulfill other Islamic duties. These moderate Muslims strongly believe in Hinduism and animism, which are strictly forbidden by the TRUE Islam.

Megawati was NOT a Muslim, but more Hindu and Animist, and she was chucked out of office NOT for massive corruption, but for lack of leadership. She won the election just because of her being Sukarno’s daughter in a society that is still feudalistic in its spirit and essence.

In conclusion, my answer to the main question of the original article is: NO. Islam is NOT PEACEFUL, but it is a VIOLENT and EXTREMELY INTOLERANT RELIGION. As such, it is extremely difficult, if not even impossible, to engage the hardliners on doctrinal grounds. The President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, liberal Muslim leaders and society at large are staying away from loud, public debate on the issue, simply because they –in their hearts— AGREE with the hardliners, but stop short of declaring it publicly, for fear of losing support from USA and the West that guarantees their current well being.

Posted by: Momentoftruth at March 5, 2007 9:52 AM

The one thing I can add here is that the indigenous culture of Java and Bali is over 4000 years old. Indonesian people have been around a lot longer than the west and a lot longer than the radical Islamic movement begun by Muhammad.

It is entirely possible that the great Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms were destroyed in the late tenth century AD, and thus much earlier than most historians believe. One may well wonder why people with such an impressive history would forgive the invaders from the Middle East for the innumerable torments ramrodded down their throats by Islam and its "clerics". The great Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms of Central Java ranked among the three great civilizations of Asia, rivalled only by India and China.

Lurking within the consciousness of many Indonesians must be knowledge of the inherent falseness and malignance of the teachings of Muhammad. Most likely, Indonesians are too frightened of the Arabs and other middle Eastern nationalities who have brutally co-opted their homeland and imposed this ungodly horror on them that is known as Islam. People with such a great history usually aren't all that easy to fool. Posters (alleging) from Indonesia at this site have mentioned that Indonesian people are usually very anxious to learn about the teachings of Christ. THAT should provide encouragement to observers concerned about Indonesians' lurch into the hellish morass of Islamism.

I think that Indonesians for the most part have more sense than to get mixed up with the global Islamic terrorism called jihad--some will, but I am sure most won't. The four thousand years-long cultural histories of Java and Bali must at least have given these people that much.

MY prediction: Indonesia won't stay Islamic forever (thank Yahweh!).

Posted by: pythagoras at March 5, 2007 1:25 PM