Dhimmis

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 11:09 AM

What happened to name, rank and serial number?

The only time you start to give out anything - it is before the axe falls. For crap sake, it is just more of the same from the EU. Why do they even bother fighting it? Just go buy the prayer rugs now and get it over with.

Posted by: R_not at April 4, 2007 11:16 AM

Slim Pickens has a gift for YOU, AhmaddenedJihad.

YEEEEE HAAAAWWW............

Posted by: Know Your Enemy at April 4, 2007 11:16 AM

What has struck me most about this whole incident is the degree of maximal "cooperation" exhibited by the British sailors and Royal Marines. Normally, prisoners of war, at worst, do only the very minimal they can get away with as far as cooperation with their captors are concerned. And usually their fellow citizens and servicemen understand that this is an acceptable trade-off, short of treason and harmful collaboration. After this incident I am not sure that Britain and its armed forces are as valuable an ally as we once thought they were. Certainly, the British public and media have started to get on board with blaming America for this mess. I suspect that once The Independent came out with that scurrilous article that morally equates the Irbil Raid with this act of piracy, the Iranians knew that they had achieved the desired effect. So long, British cousins, we would have preferred that things turn out differently, but that was not to be. Now, let us hope that the Aussies do indeed have the mettle to stand with for the long haul.

Posted by: FredIsinglass at April 4, 2007 11:21 AM

The West believes in nothing so why should its soldiers? Fifteen traitors out of fifteen? Yes traitors. Their statements were sickening. Our POW's in Vietnam dragged out for such 'self-incrimination' before the cameras spoke in drugged robot-monotones and subtly meanwhile 'gave the finger' - a gesture their captors didn't know. Read what was done to them.

What unimaginable tortures were inflicted on these 'Great Britons'? I'd wager nothing but vague threats and bribes.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at April 4, 2007 11:23 AM

http://www.dawn.com.pk/2007/04/04/top7.htm

why are Demonrats meeting with Musharaff oppososition?

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 11:25 AM

Fred, I think these sailors were just so incredulous and joyful that they still had their heads. Who among us didn't think that these sailors were done for, to be dragged thru the streets of Tehran?

Of course, I wouldn't have minded a subversive middle finger here and there in the photos and video, much like the photo of the Marine meeting Billary.

Posted by: Know Your Enemy at April 4, 2007 11:27 AM

""The British government sent a letter to our Foreign Ministry and said it would not happen again. Of course, our decision had nothing to do with the letter."

....be sure to remind Ahmadinejad of this , the next time an "incident" occurs....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 11:28 AM

Bonniea -

Don't be too sure our own military would not be portrayed in similar fashion. If you read the letter that Turney allegedly wrote, you would think you were reading a foreigners sorry attempt at english.

No, I will hold judgement until they are safe and able to speak freely. Assuming of course that their families safety was not threatened as well.

I will, however hold the entire episode against the commanding officer in charge that could've stuck his neck out (even against orders) to do what was right in defense of those under his/her charge.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at April 4, 2007 11:34 AM

"The British government sent a letter to our Foreign Ministry and said it would not happen again."

Not that I am usually inclined to believe what these lying savages say, but if this is true, what does it mean? That the Brits will no longer allow their servicemen to deploy in international waters lest some mahometan pirates capture them for ransom?

Posted by: Infidel33 at April 4, 2007 11:38 AM

Question: When Iran kidnapped the 15 sailors, did it also seize the vessel they were on?

If so, will that British military vessel now be part of the Iranian navy?

Britain has been absolutely gutless but that should surprise anyone who knows Tony Blair. That Iran can get away with this only encourages more outrages in the future. If Britian had a real leader, an entire British armada would be in Iranian waters now and for the dishonour of their 15 sailors, they would destroy 15 Iranian cities.

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 4, 2007 11:41 AM

'why are Demonrats meeting with Musharaff oppososition?

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 11:25 AM '

....Democrats never met a terrorist they did not like....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 11:44 AM

http://www.dawn.com.pk/2007/04/04/top7.htm

why are Demonrats meeting with Musharaff oppososition?

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 11:25 AM

To show their respects to their Muslim overlords

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 11:45 AM

The West believes in nothing so why should its soldiers?

In this the Jihad terror war, our troops are at a distinct disadvantage in comparison to those fighting communist expansionism in Indochina 40 yrs ago.

As we all know, the opinion programming machine went haywire on September 12, and took off backwards. Been spinning and running out of control ever since that fateful day.

So, Wetern troops are fighting a nameless enemy in a formless, frontless war with no definition of victory and, worst of all, willful identification of the actual enemy as not only friends and allies, but also as innocent victims of the very nations being fought for by the troops.

610 * 624 * 632 * 1066 * 1453 * 1683 * 1848 * 1938 * 1948 * 1968 * 1996 * 2001 * 2005

We've all sold out, or have been sold out. That having been quietly our immoral, poorly educated, craven elites. They're resolute in their refusal to take even the tiniest risk, and so have cloaked themselves (and us) in a dense fog of self-delusion.

So why should our troops be any different?

Hell, all Western armed services have Moslems troops, even Moslem commanders, which further reinforces the mass confusion.

How insane is that?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at April 4, 2007 11:45 AM

XRDC, I'm sorry, but the whole thing reeks of appeasement. I'm so disgusted. I have to agree with the other posters above. All this has done is embolden Iran. The British soldiers are very weak and that stems from their leadership. The UK is becoming soft like the rest of Europe. We are in need of a Churchill or Teddy Roosevelt style leadership, or in 20 years we'll all be forced to pray to Allah by fear of the sword. Now I understand how La Resistance felt when they were forming an organization to fight Hitler.

Posted by: Bonniea at April 4, 2007 11:52 AM

"The British government sent a letter to our Foreign Ministry and said it would not happen again."

Wouldn't venture into iranian waters...or never again let their Sailors and Marines be taken so easily.

As I've commented over for more than week, these servicemen were not PoWs because there's no declared war with iran; as uniformed servive men they also can't be considered hostages as hostages are innocents. They were illegal captives held for the prisoner exchange that was announced yesterday.

That the commander of the multinational ship from which their patrol had deployed from had to radio for orders is the greatest foul-up here. RoE have to include the ability to defend against other State actors.

Lastly, maybe this will dtiffen some British spine

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 12:04 PM

Now that they are safe:

It was very disturbing to see military officers submitting to enemy propaganda. In my mind, young mothers get a pass because a twisted society put them in a position that they should have never been put in. Captains don’t have that excuse.

It worries me that these men may have considered their Country to be not worth fighting for. That is the most frightening thing.

Posted by: pez at April 4, 2007 12:06 PM

oops. that was 'stiffen'

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 12:07 PM

What happened to name, rank and serial number?

--------------------------------------------------

Yes, it is truly disgusting how unprepared these sailors were and how poorly trained and equipped they were to deal with a POW situation/ capture such as theirs. All the apologies and begging did was weaken the Wests stance and admit guilt for something they never did. since we have not really seen all 15 captives i hope that it is because not all sailors cooperated with Iran. I'm sure it was terrifying but that is a Soldiers dutyto NOT aid the Enemy. I fear the modern soldier is a different breed than the one of our Grandfathers era. we don't have the will for sacrifice anymore. Joining the military is not sacrificing,especially when you give in and collaborate with the enemy, keeping your mouth shut , perhaps refusing food and water and only giving " NAME, RANK, SERIAL #" is . not playing into the enemies insidious transparent ploy is also.Iran should have encountered greater resistance and far less cooperation from the sailors. It appears none of them are fit to wear the uniform. I know for certain many of our grandfathers endured far much horrific situations and never gave in. we are a different breed now.

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 12:13 PM

British sailor to Ahmadinejad: "We are grateful for your forgiveness"

I can visualize that sailor someday, with his grandchild on his knee, and his grandchild asks,"Grandpa, why did you say that?" I wonder what the old man will say. I would hate to be that man.

For a soldier or sailor to be brave in the way we would like to think of them, there needs to be the conviction and belief that his government will do everything in its power to rescue them. In this war, I can understand why this sailor would seem to fold up like a cheap card table. His government seemed to fall apart like a much cheaper card table. If a soldier has no faith in his leadership, he is doomed.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 4, 2007 12:17 PM

Wow, you keyboard warriors sure are a tough and brave bunch. You have no fucking idea what those soldiers were put through (mock executions, etc). You'd piss your pants if the Iranian Revolutionary Guards held you hostage, so please STFU.

Posted by: george_rem at April 4, 2007 12:20 PM

George; Fifteen years ago, captured pilots beat their own faces before their PR photos. Same thing in Vietnam. These guys were smiling and apologizing. It is a reflection of us.

Posted by: pez at April 4, 2007 12:26 PM

Wow, you keyboard warriors sure are a tough and brave bunch. You have no fucking idea what those soldiers were put through (mock executions, etc). You'd piss your pants if the Iranian Revolutionary Guards held you hostage, so please STFU.

Posted by: george_rem at April 4, 2007 12:20 PM

Shouldnt your anger be directed at the Iranians for putting the Brits through this?

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 12:26 PM

Surely this has nothing to do with Palestine 07 campaign on behalf of the Bush admin?

"Diplomatic sources at the conference told me that behind the scenes the following move is being consolidated: The US has realized that it is losing its power due to its tendency for unilateralism towards Israel and has decided to get closer to Saudi Arabia so that it would consolidate a moderate Arab coalition.
However, just like in Washington, there are no free meals in Riyadh either: In order for the Saudis to enter this process, the Americans assured them that they would exert pressure on Israel to make difficult decisions and to reach a compromise that would enable the Palestinians to establish an independent state. Thus, the US would be granted a type of Arab umbrella for a diplomatic or military campaign against Iran, whereas Saudi Arabia would be able to boast before the Arab world that it had succeeded in bringing about an Israeli compromise."

http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2007/03/sacrifice_israe.html

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 12:28 PM

Stockholm Syndrome

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:1xkWwA-zjwkJ:ask.yahoo.com/20030324.html+stockholm+syndrome&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

These clowns in Iran will only understand force used against them with extreme prejudice. Although politicians (Pelosi, Bush, etc.) are notoriously inconsistent as they beg for votes, I'm sure they see reality here. This group in Iran must never be permitted to even get near nuclear weapons.

Posted by: Frank at April 4, 2007 12:29 PM

George Rem, if this represents the level of training and professionalism and what our soldiers and sailors are made of, we're up the creek sans paddle.

Now you can STFU.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 4, 2007 12:32 PM

I agree that criticizing the service people makes no sense. Who knows what kind of threats were made? Its one thing to risk your own life, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Iranians put a gun to the head of the woman, and the "thankful" sailor did what he did to save her life.

Lets save our criticism for the UK government for what has happened and the US government for what happens next. If the sucking up was a temporary tactic to get the hostages returned that is followed up by strong action, we will all be much relieved, and the aggregate impact of this situation will not be that of appeasement.

We can only hope that some type of aggressive response is initiated with the return of the hostages---

Posted by: JSobieski at April 4, 2007 12:34 PM

These sailors are a disgrace for admitting to something they didn't do and then thanking the thug in chief for pardoning them. I hope our soldiers never behave this way if captured. What a group of

Posted by: Bonniea

I can't agree with this. These sailors were taken hostage in plain sight of a British Navy Destroyer. Apparently the Ministry of Defence gave strict orders NOT to shoot.

THAT has got to be demoralizing.. to be taken hostage in plain sight of your destroyer. Or would you disagree?

If you get that little support on the battle field what support would YOU expect from Dimmi B.Liar once you're a hostage?

Give me a break!

The cohesion of the British Military has been dealt a serious blow.

Say Thanks to "Labour".

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 4, 2007 12:35 PM

"We are grateful for your forgiveness." The things people say when a gun is pointed at them...

Posted by: eloivsdiablo at April 4, 2007 12:35 PM

Time to see our tax monies put to good use. I'd like to think mine helped buy a tail-fin on a Tomahawk.

Iran you're next.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2007 12:36 PM

Allahfanculo: great point, it must have been very demoralizing for those sailors to see the Royal Navy abandoning them.

Posted by: george_rem at April 4, 2007 12:38 PM

Frankly, I can't get too upset by the way these British marines conducted themselves.

If they thanked Their Iranian captors for the good food and treatment, what's the big deal?

If, on the other hand, they gave away military secrets, of betrayed their fellow captives, that would be a different story all together.

We might not want to admit it, but American soldiers and airmen, including John McCain, who is now a hero, made statements and broadcasts as prisoners of war that could be interpreted as treasonous.

The old name, rank and serial number policy, worked fine in a world when honor between advisaries was the rule, not the exception, as it is today.

People like Ahmadinejad don't understand honor. they don't even understand simple decency.

There's no point in telling soldiers that they have to die rather than tell an Ahmadinejad that the food wasn't half bad, or that living conditions were okay. Nothing dishonorable about that.

Why make these Marines feel ashamed, when they did nothing to be ashamed of.

Posted by: rational at April 4, 2007 12:39 PM

Yes, it is truly disgusting how unprepared these sailors were and how poorly trained and equipped they were to deal with a POW situation/ capture such as theirs

They're too busy learning sensitivity training and how to prepare 'halal' meals for their moslem 'comrades'.

They need to be taught how to HAT and KILL the other side. At least that's what I always thought a military was for.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 4, 2007 12:40 PM

Foehammer, wouldn't it be great to have our names stenciled on the nose of a Tomahawk that is bound for Tehran?

Yes, do it in my name.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 4, 2007 12:40 PM

Those 4 Paki intel officers on their way to find Al Zawhiri were killed because the ISIntel is infested with Al Qaeda.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/03/pakistani_intel.html

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 12:41 PM

Wow, you keyboard warriors sure are a tough and brave bunch. You have no fucking idea what those soldiers were put through (mock executions, etc). You'd piss your pants if the Iranian Revolutionary Guards held you hostage, so please STFU.

Posted by: george_rem

--------------------------------------------------

You obviously don't know much about Military History George . It's about the " Uniform" , what it stands for and " who" is inside it. I don't fault them for being Terrified , who wouldn't be. These are not the Warriors of a genewration or two ago. It is proof that we don't believe in our own cause. the enemy will die for his , and we will role over to avoid ANY harshness. it's a Patriotic / backbone thing.

I'm sure Churchill would be proud.

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 12:41 PM

Elric66-

"Shouldnt your anger be directed at the Iranians for putting the Brits through this?"

Elric, you speak enough crap to split even an elephants arse. How gloatingly superior do you have to feel before you make even yourself choke?.

As XRDC points out above, let's see what the marines and sailors have to say about this before we start to pass judgement. In the meanwhile, as he also points out, you'd be best making some attempt to analyse and review what exactly Commodore Nick Lambert, as commander of Coalition Task Force 158 and based on HMS Cornwall, was doing while all this was going on: As that is where a lot of the questions lie at the moment.

But of course, if all you want to do is use this as a platform for your jaded and narrow views of the British Military and the British people, well...... What would be different there?.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 12:42 PM

Rational, saying, "We are grateful for your forgiveness" is a little too much for most people to accept. That statement is beyond a simple compliment to the chef.

It's disconcerting to me learn that someone in the military has as much backbone as I would have. As I posted earlier, we're screwed.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 4, 2007 12:48 PM

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 12:42 PM

Not my fault the Brits sold out the troops, not my fault the troops rolled over so easy, not my fault the Iranians are homicidal maniacs. Save your venom for those who deserve it

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 12:49 PM

Rational-

Thanks for that. I have to love all these idiots that believe it is a soldiers duty to martyr themselves just to suit their specific version of what is honourable or not. As you said, quite rightly, it wouldn't make a difference which nations soldiers were in that position. Sod it.... tell them what they want to hear as long as it's not classified or tactical information. As long as our boys and girls get out so they can fight another day.

Only next time, of course, they need to make sure that any approach by Iranians or anyone is being closely covered by support vessels and that, after all of this, they are crystal clear about the consequences (And these should be aggressively spelled out) should they attempt this again.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 12:50 PM

@Pelayo: Not only would it be great to have my name stenciled on a Tomahawk, I'd pay $1,000 to help make the missile and earn the right. I'm still the same kid that sat in front of the television for 444 days, and I'm not going to forget that this circus act we just witnessed again in Iran is exactly the same diversionary tactic as it was then. The Ayatollahs believe they can just wave a hand and mislead the Persian people and the world. It is high time they paid in a pound of flesh. And the murdering bastards have been sending bombs, money and aid to the killers of our boys and girls in uniform.

Let's get this over with. Iran can not be allowed to have nukes. The only smart reason to be in Iraq is to knock out the Iranian threat.

Do it.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2007 12:50 PM

This incident occurred because of a failure in theater--not at Downing St. I'm not defending Blair but I am condemning the lack of immediate response from HMS Cornwall due to unclear RoE.

It's my understanding that, when faced with the incursion and capture on the Iraqi side of the Shatt al Arab waterway, Commodore Lambert was not clear on his allowed response and requested orders from above--maybe as high as General Patraeus.

As to comparing this lot to our grandfathers--what we're in now is unfortunately still more comparable to the 1930s than the 1940s. Few yet believe that this is an existential struggle for our very lives and, as such, the will to truly fight is not yet ignited.

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 12:51 PM

Wishbone

When is boarding a boat in disputed waters defensive? Especially when everyone knows Iranian Navy boats are making incursions before hand?

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 12:51 PM

Wishbone, you seem to have a persecution complex. In the same circumstances I would not be a bit surprised to see American sailors act the same way.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 4, 2007 12:51 PM

It's disconcerting to me learn that someone in the military has as much backbone as I would have. As I posted earlier, we're screwed.

Posted by: Pelayo

--------------------------------------------------

This IS the point.

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 12:53 PM

Elric66-

"Save your venom for those who deserve it"

That's a marvellous proposition Elric. It's just a shame that you can't seem to practice what you preach.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 12:54 PM

Wishbone

This was a known threat! For those in command, equally negligent.

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 12:55 PM

That's a marvellous proposition Elric. It's just a shame that you can't seem to practice what you preach.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 12:54 PM

Im not attacking you as you are doing to me. Im just pointing out the Brits are full fledge dhimmis. Seems most here agree with that.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 12:59 PM

Akak-

"When is boarding a boat in disputed waters defensive?"

Where did I say it was "defensive"?.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 12:59 PM

Where did I say it was "defensive"?.

offensive then?

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 1:02 PM

Elric66-

"Im not attacking you as you are doing to me. Im just pointing out the Brits are full fledge dhimmis. Seems most here agree with that."

Did you even read that before you posted it Elric?. There's a difference between attacking someone personally and attacking their utter lack of objectivity on a given subject.

Why don't you just rewrite that: "I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying your entire nation and its' military are a bunch of wankers"

Good grief.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:04 PM

Akak-

Sorry mate, but what's your point?.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:05 PM

Wishbone, the Brits rolled over. Almost half the Brits said that they wouldnt supported military action even as a last resort to get back their sailors. But then, they didnt use military force to protect them to begin with so that poll wasnt surprising.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 1:06 PM

As far as the middle East goes does anyone here believe that by seeing the British Sailors confess and repeatedly thank the Iranian people for their understanding on TV and in the media that this does anything but make the West look weak and cowardly ? this does a lot of damage to an already tarnished image.
I don't believe the soldiers really Believe in the Cause cause as most JW readers know , Most Westerners don't truly comprehend the threat of Islam and the way it thinks. all this Thanking and apologizing did was embolden Iran. this is a huge Victory for them.

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 1:07 PM

"Commodore Lambert was not clear on his allowed response..."

YOU HAD BETTER FRIGGIN WELL KNOW WHAT YOUR RESPONSE SHOULD BE!!!!

Or you should not be commodore of anything more important than the lavatory.

You don't pull a gun out unless you are prepared to kill something.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at April 4, 2007 1:07 PM

Wishbone was it offensive or defensive, please clarfiy for the keyboard chicken shits?

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 1:11 PM

Yesterday, the former First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Alan West, said British rules of engagement were "very much de-escalatory, because we don't want wars starting ... Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2393337.ece

Totally pathetic

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 1:12 PM

There's little point in arguing about the behavior of the British seamen under these circumstances. They have not been watching our news. All the information they have gotten has been fed to them. For all they know, they were in Iranian waters and so they are giving in to what they might very well perceive as their own guilt. They are also trying to get home alive.

I agree with other posters here that have blamed lack of action in their own defense for the main issue of contention. But if the Brits are as stretched thin as some people have said, then they most likely had no choice but to stand-down to the threat because they were out-gunned. I wasn't there, so I have no way of knowing.

Just get them home.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2007 1:12 PM

Hello,
I have been reading Frontpage, Discoverthenetworks, and Jihad/Dimmi Watch for some time and finally got Typekey to work and the Army computers to let me actually post (3 weeks from redeploying, but hey).

I am in Iraq right now with the US Army. I have been for several months and I have shown the trolls' (abdullah and Nassem) comments to my Iraqi (Sunni/Shia/Kurd) counterparts here. Their words towards these two were… not very nice.... But that is for another topic.

But back to the topic. I work with several British Naval and Army Officers/Enlisted here (along with soldiers from several other countries and the Iraqi Army). These soldiers are at once very upset at their fellows for appearing to “sell out” so fast, and at their naval arm for sitting by while an act of piracy was undertaken against Britain. But they are the angriest at the Iranians who COMMITTED this act of wanton piracy.

Soldiers/Marines/Airmen of several Coalition countries here have been giving these Brits our support and we will stand by them whatever their country decides to do. That is our pact to each other. For those who do not understand, I cannot explain.

“Aminamoodtojihad’s” little stunt has shown the week will, yet again, of the UN, EU and those who tie their destinies to them. Brittain has found out that she is separated, as usual, from any Continental assistance or sympathy when faced with a real threat. As usual, the nations who support her the most are the USA and AUS. I cannot reason why the UK ship did not assist or why the UK Marines were sent out like they were as I am (A) a groundpounder, and (B) in Baghdad, not the gulf.

We need to remember what happened here when the next appeaser declares the West to be in violation of the Geneva Conventions (which few, if any appeasers seem to actually read).

1. Iran ATTACKED the UK ship in IRAQI waters as the UK ship was inspecting cargo vessels for smugglers. Several accounts, GPS, and local fishermen attest to this.

2. Iran REFLAGGED the UK Vessel in Iraqi waters and filmed it being escorted by SEVERAL Iranian ships. This leads even novices to conclude that the Iranians were lying in wait behind the merchant ship.

3. Iran immediately forced the female sailor to wear a headscarf and then, for no open reason, forced her into more traditional dress. Others in her group were not forced out of their uniforms. Where is the outcry from Women’s Rights Groups? Where is the disgust from the Left???

4. Iran has long been aiding smugglers shipping weapons and terrorists into Iraq. We have also captured and killed several Iranians in Iraq. They are assisting all sides against each other. We have found mortars, rockets, 50CAL sniper rifles (Austria sold Iran 800, many of which are here in Iraq) and several documents.

Iran has committed an act of war against Iraq, the UK, and the USA. The dictator-run UN has proven useless against tyrants and is, as pointed out here and several other sites, in bed with the “Islam ubber alles” fascists. The EU has proven impudent. Now the UK finds itself backed into a corner, alone again accept for the few allies it has. The same allies it had during WWII……

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the investigations once the UK Military Personnel are returned and we can find out the truth. Sadly, I think we will find several more articles of the Geneva Convention were grossly violated by the Iranians. Even sadder, I think the media, the UN, the EU, and the UK/US/AUS Leftists will not even begin to care.

Posted by: Freedom and Honor at April 4, 2007 1:12 PM

Pelayo-

"Wishbone, you seem to have a persecution complex. In the same circumstances I would not be a bit surprised to see American sailors act the same way."

If they had any sense, American sailors would act this way. That's entirely my point Pelayo. Survive, get home, fight on. If all we have to do is let the little madmans ego inflate itself a little and then go get our boys back, then who cares. Only next time, he has to know that the rules have changed drastically and they won't get away with it again.

I don't know where you get 'persecution complex' from mate. Standing in objective defense of your nation and it's subjects, particularly its' military, used to be called patriotic pride at one time. These days it's a 'persecution complex'?

Strange how my pride and duty to my nation doesn't equate to the same that would be expected of any true citizen of the US in the same position.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:13 PM

British sailor to Ahmadinejad: "We are grateful for your forgiveness.”

Great and helpful headline that Robert. You could get a job at the Sun if it wasn’t for the fact that they don’t do such damning and short sighted headlines about their allies.

As I have said before, if you don’t want our help just say. Our time would be better served defending us.

Posted by: Mert at April 4, 2007 1:13 PM

"I will, however hold the entire episode against the commanding officer in charge that could've stuck his neck out (even against orders) to do what was right in defense of those under his/her charge.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC "'

....HOW high up the ladder do you go?.....in 1967 a US warship, The USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli Jets....A nearby US aircraft carrier, once made aware of the attack on the Liberty, readied and armed fighter aircraft to attack the Israeli jets....The carrier commander was ordered to stand down...the order came from the President (then Lyndon Johnson)....It was a disgrace to the US military.....We were under attack and should have been allowed to fire back....perhaps the British were ordered to stand down by Mr Blair himself....

....some things never change, In Iraq, we have troops in harms way and there are many in government who will not allow them to fire back and kill the attackers...

...it just defies common sense.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 1:13 PM

XRDC,
“Commanding officer” if that is some kind of joke it’s a good one. Horatio Gates would have been proud. After all a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link.

USS PUEBLO, captured by the North Koreans in 1968.
“For instance, to understand the context of its mission, one simply has to be aware of the fate of the USS LIBERTY, a much larger ship on a similar mission, which was badly damaged by the Israelis a mere seven months before the Pueblo itself was hi-jacked. The Liberty lost 34 men during their battle (the Pueblo lost one), but managed to keep their ship afloat and meekly make it back to port. The late Captain McGonagle received the Congressional Medal of Honor (quite quietly in a non-publicized ceremony) for his heroic efforts to save his ship; the Captain of the Pueblo, Commander Pete Bucher, led his crew through 11 months of spirited resistance during their captivity at the hands of the North Koreans and was rewarded with an official recommendation for a Courts Martial.”
http://www.usspueblo.org/

Bad message to send all round.

Posted by: tgusa at April 4, 2007 1:16 PM

Akak-

Please elaborate, 'cos I just don't get the point of your question.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:17 PM

ENOUGH!

I know the officers and enlisted of the UK are more than up to their tasks. This name-calling business and subsequent hyper-sensitivity isn't very productive.

Having spent some time at sea I can tell you that the warfighting practiced by a navy is far different than a soldier or marine. Historically, you're more likely to be sunk than captured. Training in personal weapons and hand-to-hand is minimal. You're part of a team with very specific duties that don't often come face to face with a foe. You're a cog in the vessel and it's the vessel that projects force.

We'll hear soon enough what their ordeal was like but I'm saving my judgment for those further up the chain of command.

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 1:19 PM

"Commodore Lambert was not clear on his allowed response..."

Bullshit. He was probably ordered to stand down by Tony Blair himself. That was a political, not military, situation and decision.

Posted by: george_rem at April 4, 2007 1:19 PM

Elric66-

And in counterpoint, you of course have links to a plethora of polls that spell out unanimous support amongst the American people for our military actions in the middle East now, don't you?.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:21 PM

Training in personal weapons and hand-to-hand is minimal. You're part of a team with very specific duties that don't often come face to face with a foe. You're a cog in the vessel and it's the vessel that projects force.

Posted by: turn

--------------------------------------------------

The Captured were a boarding/inspection crew , were they not?

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 1:21 PM

George_Rem-

An interesting read and something to consider:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2007/04/mysteries-grow.html

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:23 PM

And in counterpoint, you of course have links to a plethora of polls that spell out unanimous support amongst the American people for our military actions in the middle East now, don't you?.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 01:21 PM

This thread is about the Brits caving in. But we have our share of Dhimmis over here. We havent got to the point of remodeling our prison toilets for Muslims.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 1:24 PM

Freedom and Honor-

Thanks for chiming in and thanks for your service.

Any idea of where the buck stopped on the decision not to attack? We rely on the Brits to watch our backs out there and vice versa. Do their rules of engagement differ from ours? I am still of the opinion that even if a British command was untethered to react, any U.S. forces nearby would not have hesitated to defend the Brits. In Iraqi waters or not.

As a former Navy enlisted, I am still appalled at the original command decision to 'sacrifice' the sailors and the marines with them.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at April 4, 2007 1:27 PM

@Freedom and Honor:

The reason the Left doesn't cry loudly about the female sailor being re-dressed is because they still buy the mythology of the 'Religion of Peace', because it's far, far easier to believe such lies than to actually admit to themselves that they might be forced one day to join the war and lose their own lives in the fight to defend what we hold dearest. Such is the excuse of too many across the world.

It is also this same mythology that is used to continually recruit new "reverts". Multiculturalism and our own ridiculous Western "reflections" continue to pull us all down the road towards oblivion. Until we are ready to label Islam what it is, a cult of lies and hatred, then we are doomed to fail in this war.

I, however, still see hope for the West to wake up and so I continue to post here, complain loudly and blog.

The troops have my full support. And I'll keep badgering your officers and the politicians until you get theirs, too.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2007 1:28 PM

Training in personal weapons and hand-to-hand is minimal. You're part of a team with very specific duties that don't often come face to face with a foe. You're a cog in the vessel and it's the vessel that projects force.

There is so many things in that are alarming.

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 1:32 PM

Courage and Bravery are not something you can teach someone. That's why their are very few that should be soldiers. These British soldiers are a disgrace to the free world. Britains foreign minister is a spineless dhimmi. I can't see our democratic party acting any different though.

Posted by: MadMom at April 4, 2007 1:33 PM

"untethered"

Should've been "unable".

Hard to be a keyboard warrior with poor aim...

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at April 4, 2007 1:34 PM

Bullshit. He was probably ordered to stand down by Tony Blair himself. That was a political, not military, situation and decision.

Posted by: george_rem

really how did the RAF respond to same?

live to fight another day, instead of getting the job done

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 1:35 PM

Courage and Bravery are not something you can teach someone. That's why their are very few that should be soldiers. These British soldiers are a disgrace to the free world. Britains foreign minister is a spineless dhimmi. I can't see our democratic party acting any different though.

Posted by: MadMom at April 4, 2007 01:33 PM

The Dems arent any different.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 1:35 PM

Wishbone

it's pretty simple Wishbone

offensive manouevre or defensive? on behalf of Brits

Iranian incursions were known

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 1:37 PM

Wishbone: very very interesting. The pussification starts from the top.

Posted by: george_rem at April 4, 2007 1:37 PM

What weapons do they have that we do not? What secret plan do they have to storm the beaches of Brighton that we haven’t heard about?

And before you start on about immigration I would like to point out that governments don’t last like countries do, the voter ultimately gets its way. And the way in Britain is not Dhimmi even if some of you take pleasure in thinking it is.

If you want facts about the British attitude to Islam then live amongst the working class, they do the fighting. But don’t get your opinions from the media.

And MadMom you are a disgrace to yourself and everybody who agrees with you.

Posted by: Mert at April 4, 2007 1:39 PM

Apparently some here believe that, as on '24', a head of state is informed almost instantly of a relatively small and little-understood incident in a far off land.

It doesn't work that way (but I am a fan of the show).

In this era of lawyers in uniform the RoE are far from clear. A wrong decision can end a career and every potential can never be planned for (although that seems to be the case every time a new situation develops).

A boarding/inpection team is comprised of a couple Marines with sufficient arms to hold a small crew while the Navy personnel perform the search. They were easily overwhelmed by the larger force of Iranians that were prepared and tasked for this capture.

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 1:39 PM

"Bad message to send all round"

...indeed, and it is even worse, .....because of an American traitor Johnb Anthoy Walker, who was working with the Soviets, the ship Pueblo was seized....

"More recently, facts have come to light that indicate that USS Pueblo was captured by North Korea at the instigation of the Soviet Union, which was seeking a cryptographic machine onboard to match with a key provided to the Soviets by the spy John Anthony Walker."

.....The wimpy US government did nothing...

.....Captain BUcher was virtually crucified...disgraceful action...

....Todays soldiers in Iraq risk being shot by terrorists, arrested by the US for killing terrorists, or abandoned by the US Congress because of the Hate for Bush....

....disgraceful.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 1:41 PM

If anything this incident is showing just how unprepared we are. Are the Iranians the Elite? sounds like it here. There are lots of reasons Why the Brit Sailors did what they did. Outgunned, Up against a greater force, weren't prepared. The Royal Navy " Unprepared " and " Outgunned " . how is that inexcusable?

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 1:44 PM

Edit^^ I meant " excusable "

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 1:45 PM

XDRC,

I do not know where the buck stops in the MNC-I as far as the Brits go. I am not a general, just a PFC who went to the "dark side" years ago. I DO know that myself and any troops with me do not hesitate to defend ourselves and call for help. It is an automatic response. You do it.

Everyone here is under the same orders: Defends yourself and your brethren, kill the attackers if you can, and care for and defend the innocent and civilians. We have Diggers, UK forces, US, Romanian, Albanian, Moldavian, Dutch, S. Korean, and several others here along with every US branch. We have all talked about our ROE and what we will and have done to keep ourselves and each other alive. We also do our best to keep the innocents in Iraq alive though the media never covers that.

A car bomb yesterday killed to female medical interns and one of thier brothers on their way to the university. Islamofascists despise education for an uneducated person is easy to rule.

Foehammer,
Yeah, the question was kinda rhetorical. I know the reasons... I am just seething as I watch CNN with my jaw dropped looking at how the dhimmis of the world fall all over themselves in surrender. I would be happier if they just surrendered and went away, however, the fact that they insist on also betraying and hobbling the defense of those of us unwilling to submit to slavery and totalitarianism really...upsets me.

Soon I will be back home in the USA. All going to Iraq has done is made me MORE avid in my defense of the newest "Gates of Vienna".

Posted by: Freedom and Honor at April 4, 2007 1:45 PM

Britain is finished. I mean really ....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 4, 2007 1:47 PM

Let us not forget this is a " Victory" for the UK and Diplomacy , er , i mean it was a " GIFT "from the Iranian people. *rolls eyes*

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 1:47 PM

"A boarding/inpection team is comprised of a couple Marines with sufficient arms to hold a small crew while the Navy personnel perform the search. They were easily overwhelmed by the larger force of Iranians that were prepared and tasked for this capture."

No one is faulting the small crew for not fighting to the death. The "mother" ship is the issue. The one with the BIG guns. The one that was responsible for their safety.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at April 4, 2007 1:48 PM

Britain is finished. I mean really ....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 4, 2007 01:47 PM

Amen to that.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 1:48 PM

""We are grateful for your forgiveness"

...translated...thank you for not beheading me....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 1:50 PM

This is the footage from an anti-semitic rally at Wayne State University last Thursday on campus:

Part I:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqbfZqX7LWU
Part II:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxeweTTLqII
Part III:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1BlPhbW5tw

Here is a story that aired about the rally on Fox 2 News (Detroit):

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2828453&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.1.1

Here are two rally organizers (Mike Staunch and Shemon Salam) trying to defend themselves, but they ended up being really offensive:

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2838924&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1

There is also a story posted on littlegreenfootballs about the rally.

THE OFFENSIVE GROUP WHO ORGANIZED THE RALLY, "ANTI-RACIST ACTION" (ARA), IS MADE UP MOSTLY OF NON-STUDENTS, AND THE GROUP OPENLY CALLS FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL AND AMERICA.

Posted by: divestmentisracism at April 4, 2007 1:50 PM

Elric66-

So this thread is "About the Brits caving in" is it?

I beg to differ on the grounds that there are far wider ranging implications to this whole mess than your over simplified and, quite frankly, deliberately and generally offensive stance.

You think that quip about the prison toilets is pertinent?. This from the nation that brings us the "Flying Imams" circus?.

So what shall we do eh Elric?. Keep on with the tit-for-tat-who's-a-bigger-dhimmi rhetoric all the way down the thread?. Or do we see the bigger picture, that being that the politics and ideology that leads to our sort of problems is prevalent on either side of the Atlantic and should be addressed in balance?.

I'll tell you something mate; One day, you're going to be sitting there having a good old chuckle at the expense of we Brits for all our faults, real or perceived, and when you turn back round you'll find some bugger has built a mosque on the Whitehouse lawn while you were busy insulting others for their misfortunes.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:51 PM

"And before you start on about immigration I would like to point out that governments don’t last like countries do, the voter ultimately gets its way. And the way in Britain is not Dhimmi even if some of you take pleasure in thinking it is." - Mert

Well, the big problem with this is that votes in the UK don't count for a whole lot anymore. You may vote Blair out of power, but the Conservatives are just as spineless. And the bottom line is that unelected EU autocrats run the show anyways. So the average person has little chance of turning things around, no matter how he or she votes. That's the really sad part of what's happening in Europe. Good people are being sold out by a ruling elite.

Posted by: OutOfAqaba at April 4, 2007 1:54 PM

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 01:51 PM

Ill be happy to comment on the dhimmis on this side and I would condem US soldiers and policy if this situation happened to the US. Not my fault you are sensitive to what went down in Iran.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 1:56 PM

Akak-

Bear with me here, mate. I'm struggling to find a context to put your question in. Are you asking whether the British personnel were performing an offensive or defensive operation?. If so, again, what's your point?.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 1:56 PM

@Freedom and Honor: It will be good to get more of our soldiers home, because soon enough you're going to be just as needed here as you are now in Iraq. Hate to say it, but the Winds of Change are blowing and our enemies are simply getting too emboldened by the constant lack of reprisals.

If Iran is not held accountable within the next 6 months for their past 30 years of terrorism export, hostage taking and culpability in the deaths of Allied military and civilians, then I will be have no choice but to predict a massive terrorist attack on U.S. soil that will reach us as a direct result of our continued failure to act against the truest enemies.

Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq must all come under stark reprisals of all kinds within the next 5 years, but preferably tomorrow. Muslim Immigration to the United States must be halted (to Europe, too, but I'm not expecting miracles) and Islamic student visas must be revoked. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution must be further amended and the threat of Islamic Law must be addressed by Congress.

Our leaders can no longer claim ignorance as an excuse.

The Threat Worse than Islamic Terrorism

Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2007 2:00 PM

"There is so many things in that are alarming."

Posted by: akak at April 4, 2007 01:32 PM

A crewman specialist trained and tasked to be a computer tech on a Tomahawk launch team would find your lack of understanding of what a modern Navy does "alarming". But typical.

"No one is faulting the small crew for not fighting to the death. The "mother" ship is the issue. The one with the BIG guns. The one that was responsible for their safety."

-XRDC

Actually, some of what Ive read here and on previous posts seem to suggest exactly that. And you're right about the Cornwall--her commander failed to make a quick decision and sought guidance from upchain.

But, ultimately it's this culture of having to ask "Oh, what shall I do?" that is responsible for this failure, a lack of courage not to face the enemy but to face our own.

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 2:02 PM

Elric66-

My 'sensitivity' or, in actuality, your assumption thereof, is not based at all on what happened. I'm more concerned with an objective and practical view of 'how' it happened so it doesn't happen again.

If you want to find someone to blame, be my guest. Just don't expect me to sit here and nod in agreement because you couldn't be arsed in the slightest to stretch your mind beyond kneejerk insults to find the root cause of a situation and apportion blame accordingly.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 2:03 PM

Lets lay of the Brits, shall we. The kidnapping of the seamen was indeed an act of war. However, Iran's taking of U.S. hostages in 1979 was also an act of war. As I see it, Blair did a better job than Carter did. If the US wasn't finished after Carter, the UK won't be finished after Blair.

Nobody is saying that Blair handled this well. However, writing Britain off as "finished" is crazy. Not to long ago Britain stood alone against the Nazis---the Brits are a key part of Western Civilization and its history.

Britain finished? Never. Next to the U.S., there is no country more deserving of some slack on this.

That being said, the handling of this incident was a disappointment. I hope we see better things in the future---like going on offense!

Posted by: JSobieski at April 4, 2007 2:05 PM

Let me say something in defense of the Brits...

Does anyone think G.W. would have done any better?

In fact I think if G.W. was taken captive he would convert in the first session. They would not even have to torture him. They would just explain to him Jesus and Mo are friends.

After all we are all people of faith!

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 4, 2007 2:07 PM

Elric66-

My 'sensitivity' or, in actuality, your assumption thereof, is not based at all on what happened. I'm more concerned with an objective and practical view of 'how' it happened so it doesn't happen again.

If you want to find someone to blame, be my guest. Just don't expect me to sit here and nod in agreement because you couldn't be arsed in the slightest to stretch your mind beyond kneejerk insults to find the root cause of a situation and apportion blame accordingly.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 02:03 PM

The fault is with your culture. You dont believe in fighting for and defending British culture. Not you particular but British society as a whole. We are seeing the same thing here in the US. This is why the West is weak and will fall unless it changes its attitude.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 2:08 PM

House Democrats Offer Plan to Ban Use of 'Global War on Terror'

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,264008,00.html

The Dems are our version of the EU.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 2:14 PM

"Outgunned, Up against a greater force, weren't prepared. The Royal Navy " Unprepared " and " Outgunned " . how is that inexcusable?"

.....with US,German,British, and French aircraft carriers and many other warships and submarines about, they were not outgunned...

...unprepared or set-up...your choice...

...I suspect the British warships near by were ordered just to watch....

...I might have gone to jail, but I would have protected my men...WWIII may have started...but it will happen anyway....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 2:21 PM

“Because of an American traitor John Anthony Walker” and company.
Yes, and why do you suppose the Liberty was attacked? The six day war pitting Israel against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. A US intelligence/communications ship dangerously close to the action. Soviet spies in the USA in almost every arena. Israel had spies in the US but would have been embarrassed if that fact got out. I suspect the Israeli’s knew how riddled with Soviet spies we were but could not say so for fear of blowing someone’s cover or not wanting to expose the depth of their spying in the USA. Were the Israeli’s afraid their operations would be compromised by the transmission of battlefield intelligence from the Liberty? Heck if I were the captain of the Liberty and I knew what the Israelis knew, I might have attacked my own ship.
Everyone spies on everyone regardless of side so I never thought that mere spying was anything shocking. Unless you are spying on your own people for any foreign entity.

Posted by: tgusa at April 4, 2007 2:21 PM

The Iranians Plucked the British from Iraqi Waters. they tried to lie about the coordinates. they say that Britain does not have the right " attitude " toward this outrageous offence. they parade sailors around on TV and have them read " Confessions " and " apologies " to the Iranian People in defiance of the geneva convention. Then Iran decides to allow the sailors to go Free and calls it a "GIFT" from the Iranian People , all the while the sailors are thanking and apologizing up and down.

How this does anything but damage the Wests image and shows that we FEAR THE IRANIANS is beyond me.
this is the sort of behaviour that Iran will Expect and Demand in the future.

I don't know why some countries do not want to understand the fact that the Iranian people do not tolerate force.

-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Our enemies can deal a blow to us any time they wish. They did not wait for permission to do this. They do not deal a blow with prior notice. They do not take action because they can't.

-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.

-Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Posted by: MoBlows at April 4, 2007 2:22 PM

"They would not even have to torture him"

...well, they could make him watch Hillarys campaign commercials or speeches, or films of Pelosi, or Rangle, or Kerry, or Murtagh, Kennedy,Feinstein,.....over and over......

...and the coup de grace...make him watch Rosie O....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 2:24 PM

I hope these sailors are returned safely to their homes -- so, that's good news for which we should all be grateful.

However, these sailors were kidnapped in the process of doing their jobs and forced to confess to crimes they did not commit!

The ape made some kind of reference to how the West has lost it's sense of values by allowing women to serve in combat positions.

This is the same ape that has said that he intends to wipe Israel off the map as well as the US; he is the same ape that has threatened Western Europe with ICBM's.

What kind of "values" could this monster understand?

So, here you have a victory for Iran. The little ape-freak has scored a major diplomatic coup in an incident that he hatched up and implemented.

If the West attacks Iran militarily now, we lose. If we don't attack, we lose.

At least on the diplomatic front, the ape has outwitted the West, and everyone with any objective sense knows it -- especially in the arab world.

Just what else was given up to procure the release of these sailors, will come to light eventually -- I suspect, it will be damning!

Give the little monkey credit when credit is due as in this unfortunate sham.

But don't turn your back; the worst IS yet to come especially since this freak has come out as a more powerful figure than when this all started.

Posted by: witness at April 4, 2007 2:27 PM

"The fault is with your culture. You dont believe in fighting for and defending British culture. Not you particular but British society as a whole. We are seeing the same thing here in the US. This is why the West is weak and will fall unless it changes its attitude."

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 02:08 PM

It's a part of our (shared) entitlement culture and it's true that the UK is a few years ahead of the US in the slide but we're far from free of the socialist left.

We truly are in this together--the entire world of English speaking people. We share a history and belief system that has endured and prevailed against all but perhaps ourselves.

We face a critical challenge to effect a seachange. From educating our kids to facing down foreign and domestic threats we need to find and maintain courage to do what's right rather than what's easy.

So please, no more about the mote in the UK's eye.

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 2:34 PM

exsgtbrown

If John Kerry was captured by the Iranians they would tell him about the wonders of Islamic collectivism etc.

The point is we have without a doubt the dumbest leaders you can elect (which does not say much about us in general). I really doubt Bush would have handled this any better. The few statements he did make on the subject he looked like a deer in the headlights.

Brits are just one step ahead of America on the road to Dhimmi-land. We Americans have nothing to brag about.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 4, 2007 2:37 PM

It's a part of our (shared) entitlement culture and it's true that the UK is a few years ahead of the US in the slide but we're far from free of the socialist left.

We truly are in this together--the entire world of English speaking people. We share a history and belief system that has endured and prevailed against all but perhaps ourselves.

We face a critical challenge to effect a seachange. From educating our kids to facing down foreign and domestic threats we need to find and maintain courage to do what's right rather than what's easy.

So please, no more about the mote in the UK's eye.

Posted by: turn at April 4, 2007 02:34 PM

We are in a fight for our lives as well. The '06 election made me realize how far our nation has sunk.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2007 2:42 PM

It's easy to make the UK look bad you know why?

One the soldiers know that this was almost a kidnapping if not felt like one and they were on a thin line on whether to believe that being a hostage in an Islamic country holds the fear of execution added on top of that the riots for execution.

Two the UK government probably fear a backlash at home either by Muslims or the opposite an attack on civilian Muslims by other civilians.

Three this was bating the hands and knees of the UK government and the soldiers.

Four, once they released the soldiers they can say it was all a joke, we were not going to kill anyone we just wanted to make you bow down the way submission is taught in their culture.

Five, once it's over Iran looks good and powerful the UK does not, the same fear that is applied to Tony Blair saying Islam is a religion of peace or is that to keep business with the East flowing otherwise he knows the fanatical attitudes will try and cut business with the UK all over the middle east if Blair said Islam is not tollerant.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at April 4, 2007 2:48 PM

We have to wonder:
1.) Will the Royal Navy continue to conduct boarding operations in Iraqi waters?
2.) What rules of engagement apply now?
3.) Has the U.S. Navy reviewed its own rules of engagement?
4.) How far down the food cahin are tactical commanders given the freedom of action needed to successfully command?
If nothing has changed as a result of this Iranian triumph, the allied fleet should be withdrawn from the area of operations within reach of the Iranian navy.

Posted by: MP at April 4, 2007 2:51 PM

JSobieski-

Thanks for your comment. A little reason always makes me feel like I'm amongst allies, no matter that we may agree or not among ourselves on ways and means.

Elric66-

Ok..... We're getting somewhere. The fault is within either of our respective cultures. Look at it this way: Leftie, liberal idiots speak with both English and American accents. No different than it would be in the US if they could get away with it, our socialists have done the best they could to erode our national pride and identity and lumber us with all this post-colonial guilt they'd been saving in a storeroom for years just waiting for the right time to see if the public would buy it.

Now you may think that we eat this crap each day for breakfast in Britain and only speak up to ask for more. It's an easy assumption to make, based on the shenanigans of our government and the liberal classes, but that's just what it is: An assumption. But do you think that we're any less pissed off with all of it than you are?. There are many Brit posters who have been, and are still, willing to tell you just what the man on the street makes of it all.

There's plenty enough opinion in my world to comfort me in that your average joe just doesn't buy into all this crud and thank The Lord for that. You know for a fact that our media and government are useless; You think we haven't noticed it?. Have a pop at them all you want mate, they put themselves in the line of fire for that sort of criticism so sod 'em.

If you actually want to know what our Brits are thinking on the street about these events, then ask our Brit posters, and take it on face value when you reasonably can, ask for it to backed up with facts where you can't.

Now I've said this before Elric, but I'll repeat it now: If I come across any idiot making stereotypical, jaded representations of Americans and their culture, I'd be the first to jump to your defense. Your nation has stood well with us over the years and a lot of damn good Yank soldiers have died side by side with our own this last century or so. That and I find Americans to be bloody good people with big hearts and always up for a good scrap. That gets enough of my respect to know it's worth my defending you when you're not there to speak for yourself. I owe it to the US, for being there when everything else has gone to crap, to speak up. You get me?.

I shouldn't have to spend time defending my nation from people that should ideologically be our greatest allies. What we should be doing is moving away from all these generalisations and start looking more closely at the facts and being a lot more specific. That way, we may just get more actual debate, leading perhaps to a consensus regarding the issues and, therefore, should we feel that any attack is warranted, we attack as one, people of different nations united in their resolve, despite their differences, to counter the threats military, politically or ideologically that confront us.

And on that note, I'm off to watch the Chelsea - Valencia game.

Posted by: Wishbone at April 4, 2007 2:55 PM

Britain is finished. I mean really ....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 4, 2007 01:47 PM

Amen to that. Said Eric the tosser.

You two sound like Naseem, no you are worse. Naseem is the enemy by definition, you two are the enemy within.

Posted by: Mert at April 4, 2007 3:01 PM

Regarding the Royal Marines - I know for a fact that physical and mental training is quite tough at the individual and squad level.Royal Navy personnel would not be as well prepared to undergo the ordeal of capture. Britain's military, although small and shrinking even further, is highly professional. Any failure, real or perceived, is a failure of political leadership. Politicians, both in and out of uniform, so often want it both ways - appear tough, but do not shed blood. I'm old enough to remember very well the death of well over 200 United States Marines in Beiruit on President Reagan's watch. Rules of engagement there did not permit Marine sentries to have loaded weapons because of the possibility that someone could get hurt. Saber rattling may have its place, but we should not go about allowing our mouth to write checks that our ass is not prepared to cash.

Posted by: MP at April 4, 2007 3:03 PM

Freedom and Honor - Thank you for what you have done and continue to do. May you return home safely.

Posted by: MP at April 4, 2007 3:04 PM

The sodiers will be free back to democracy and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad knows it. His definition of freedom is to capture and cause the soldiers to submit and confess then let them go by saying how nice they were. What was the alternative if they were not nice? Tell them to go back without arrest during the water seige or to say look we did behead them we are nice really?

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at April 4, 2007 3:12 PM

Mert:
And before you start on about immigration I would like to point out that governments don’t last like countries do, the voter ultimately gets its way. And the way in Britain is not Dhimmi even if some of you take pleasure in thinking it is.

So what?
There is definite deficit of democracy right across Europe. In Britain, it amounts to the fact that 4 weeks in every 5 years or so, we get a "chance" to put our views across to the political parties. But even this is staged- managed. It is rare that you read some voter has landed a metaphorical "punch" on Blair (or anotehr politician) like Sharon Storer in the last election (complained about the disgraceful state of hospitals on behalf of her ill husband)
See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/vote2001/hi/english/newsid_1334000/1334131.stm

And even then, on some issues the voter has little say. Remember all 3 major politcal parties backed the ERM in 1992, despite the fact the evidence is (and has been to this day), that Britain is better off with its Pound. So who do you vote for if all political parties back the ERM?

If you want facts about the British attitude to Islam then live amongst the working class, they do the fighting. But don’t get your opinions from the media.

Yes. But it is time the media and Government reflected what the average man in the street thought.

Posted by: UK Infidel Lover at April 4, 2007 3:15 PM

"Yes, and why do you suppose the Liberty was attacked?"

.....The Israelies claimed "mistaken identity", supposedly there was a (much smaller) ship in the area transporting weapons to the Muslims...

.....I "suppose" the Israeli jet jockeys were just trigger happy and looking to shoot anything moving....They were looking for the gun runners and they shot the first ship they saw....They apparently ignored radio calls to call them off...

.....The US Navy jets should have been allowed to shoot them out of the sky....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 4, 2007 3:20 PM

I can understand Britain conceding the capture of it's Personnel because of a well executed Snatch and Grab by the Iranians.

What killed any efforts Blair could make to be firmer with the Iranians, was the rather Chipper and Accommodating way the Captured Personnel sold themselves down the River.

I would have expected the Sailors and Marines to have looked a bit under the Weather during their "confession"

If the Iranians were to have placed these People on trial. Would there be any doubt that these confessions would have been used to convict them?

If you really want the truth. Listen to the BBC and just reverse the meaning of all that is said. It will be about as close to the truth as one can get.

Posted by: flowerknife_us at April 4, 2007 3:21 PM

J Sobieski made a comment earlier that makes a lot of sense to me. Whatever forms of sucking up to Ahmadinejad took place to release the hostages, what matter NOW is our posture and our actions going forward. At the very least, the British Navy must beef up its ROE and its protection of forces in light craft inspecting boats in the Persian Gulf. Piracy must be met by fierce violence. I cannot believe that the last American President who resolved to do this and actually did it was Thomas Jefferson. He read the Qur'an and he knew that it was jizya that was being extracted from Europe and from his fledgling nation. He resolved to not pay one cent more in jizya. He backed his resolve up by force and that force visited violence upon the Barbary Pirates.

I know a few have commented on the fact that may be too hard on some of the British sailors and Marines. Perhaps. But, overall I think we are the ones in the right for advocating as much non-cooperation with the enemy as possible. It's time that we believe in our values, OUR GOD and what our God is like and teaches, and our civilization. If we do not, then lacking something positive to live for we will also lack the resolve to, if need be, die for it as well. That is what sustained our grandfathers and greatgrandfathers in their struggle with tyranny. So should we be so buttressed.

Posted by: FredIsinglass at April 4, 2007 3:24 PM

Blair and his shower are but one government in a line of governments. He doesn’t hold the monopoly on Britain any longer than it takes the British people to tire of him.

Our country has survived the strikes and BS caused by labour before, why shouldn’t we do it again? It’s not like Labour have a cat in hells chance come the next election.

Posted by: Mert at April 4, 2007 3:27 PM

greatcometof1577:
Brits are just one step ahead of America on the road to Dhimmi-land. We Americans have nothing to brag about.

[wearily] Some of us are. We just have some arseholes in our midst. Not all of us are fully paid-up members of the Dhimmi club - I am not.
But the big issue and always has been is how we fight the takeover by Muslims of the entire West.

Right now, I dont see any Western politician that shows any signs of knowing what is coming.
And right now, I dont see any Western politician recognising who the enemy is.

We have to get the media and politicians onboard as to the likely history of the West if nothing is done over the next few decades. That is our task.

I personally have a brother who thinks I have lost my marbles, that it will sort itself out in the end, that we have nothing to worry about from Islam. He is liberal in thought.

Right now, I tend to think that the Muslims are ahead in terms of strategy and propaganda. Iran has done very well here.

Posted by: UK Infidel Lover at April 4, 2007 3:27 PM

I was honored to fight side by side with the Britts in 2003... Believe me the men and women of the British military are no Dhimmi's.

No judgements from me on what went down and with thier reaction. It smells to me of politics...

I am just glad they are alive. That is the biggest issue to me.

I do believe in the virtue of hope. I pray that this conflict will end soon. However, not through apeasement but through truth. If you don't know what I am talking about, I am not sure what to tell you.

I can say I have been to that part of the world too many times... I dont want to go there again.. But I will if called upon.

Posted by: Weatherob at April 4, 2007 3:33 PM

Mert:
Blair and his shower are but one government in a line of governments. He doesn’t hold the monopoly on Britain any longer than it takes the British people to tire of him.

Very true. And people with long memories wont forget Brown stole £5 billion a year out of their Pensions. Nor will they forget the other areas Labour has not delivered on education, health, rising taxes. I think come a general election likely to be this year (because Brown will want a mandate), Labour will out on its ear.


Our country has survived the strikes and BS caused by labour before, why shouldn’t we do it again? It’s not like Labour have a cat in hells chance come the next election.

No. But the Conservatives still have to solve problems that they are not even aware about.
We still have too many illegal immigrants.
And none of the parties display any real understanding about the Muslim problem and how it is likely to be worse in a few decades.

Posted by: UK Infidel Lover at April 4, 2007 3:41 PM

Iran is playing to the audience here UK Infidel Lover, nobody buys it only the terminally stupid, fanatical and elric66.

Do you think for a moment that Iran could storm the beaches of Brighton? They would get sunk and rightly so before they left the gulf.

Blair WILL is gone soon enough, even if he takes the Number 10 cat hostage as they drag him out by the back door. Bone Crusher Džugašvili is even more hated than his arch nemesis Blair! Even the Scots will vote SNP.

Until people who disagree have all been stoned to death Islam will be unpopular simply because it stones people to death.

Posted by: Mert at April 4, 2007 3:43 PM

As for the Conservatives. Cameron would sell his wife into servitude to gain power from these idiots and in a way I don't blame him. What David Davis and the real Tories have to say when they claim there rightful home back is another matter.

You can't predict the future based only on the present. Shit nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.

Posted by: Mert at April 4, 2007 3:49 PM

@Mert: The enemies we fight today won't ever storm any shores. They will kill us in our sleep, or poison our children, but they won't ever fight like we used to describe in hymns and verse. Those days are over with.

All the more reason to destroy Islamic regimes wherever they stand.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2007 3:50 PM

There are so many pro and against these UK sailors posted above. I criticized them because they didn't look like they were undergoing harsh treatment smiling and giggling among each other. They were even provided new suits and the videos did not resemble hostages taken by Al Qaeda who look scared to