Well said.

Posted by: justamomof4 at April 17, 2007 5:05 PM

Robert said

If he wanted to convey by this that he was engaging in jihad killings, he could have written "Allahu akbar" or any number of other phrases that would have been clearer.

I am most interested in reading his "long, rambling note" that talks about the "debauchery" of his fellow students. Cho's play has been posted, as linked above in thesmokinggun, since that was in the possession of his classmates, not the authorities. It may be a long while before the "long, rambling note" is released, unfortunately.

Posted by: special_guest at April 17, 2007 5:07 PM

If the name is literal, Ismail is Muslim of the Asian "Khan" linguistic family group.

Posted by: Lame Cherry at April 17, 2007 5:12 PM

as i said last night, i think the main point now is that this serves as a terrible warning.
following the FBI/DHS warnings of attacks on schools, security should have been high at all US educational establishments.
if this attack had been carried out by an organised terror squad with automatic weapons and explosives, instead of one loser with 2 handguns, the deathtoll would have been in hundreds.
if the authorities do not learn major lessons from this then there will be a terrible price to pay, because we can be sure that the terrorists will be looking at this attack with great interest, and will surely want to outdo it scale and ferocity.

Posted by: M Al-Content at April 17, 2007 5:16 PM

Robert wrote: "And that is ultimately one of the principal lessons of this horrific episode at Virginia Tech: these attacks could happen any time, there is little or nothing to prevent them from happening on college campuses or in other crowded public spaces, and little or nothing is being done about that, although there are many things that can, and should, be done about it."

I have to say that you made a pretty profound statement here and in some respects I agree with you that there is nothing we can do about this kind of an incident ever happening again. But then you go on to say there are things we should be doing. I'd ask what is it you think we could be doing, bearing in mind that you are talking about complexes that are historically not only liberal in political philosophy but liberal from the perspective of limiting or rather restricting student access to both facilities and activities. And I understand why this is so. It allows for the maturing of immature minds. So with all that said, I'm curious as to what you think should be done yet not erasing those freedoms that most colleges and universities in this country find necessary parts of their community?

Posted by: DWS at April 17, 2007 5:33 PM

Mea culpa Mr. Spencer. It's just that I got really angry reading a post by that f-ing idiot Debbie Schlussel on the shooting and to see that post made me think you went down to her level. Glad you clarified. I know you're not like the frothing-at-the-mouth crazy conservative bloggers I've read. Sadly I can't say that about some of the commenters.

And DWS, here are some simple things that can be done to prevent a massacre on a college campus. Metal detectors, a comprehensive emergency plan, free self defense classes, better training for campus police and security just to name a few. That's about all that can be done to minimize damage.

Posted by: wrathofasma at April 17, 2007 5:45 PM

In other words when somebody says something crazy we should take it serious. That goes for Korean English majors and for Jihadist who say things just as crazy if not more everyday.

Thus the lesson of the day....

:)

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 17, 2007 5:49 PM

Hi, Robert ...

I wouldn't worry at all about this, if I were you. I didn't think your original post convicted him. The truth is that until we have an identified subject whose identity and motive we can identify, we are all going to think that it's possibly terrorism -- and we are all going to dread the general appeasement-head-of-the-facts that we normally get from the FBI and law enforcement in general.

Just watching a psychiatrist on Fox, who is basically saying the kid's on anti-depressant drugs, has left a veritable RAFT of threats, violent behavior, woman-stalking, written ravings, and leaving a note railing at "rich kids" -- and that there as AMPLE just cause for serious intervention, and that nobody did, including, apparently, the doctor who prescribed these drugs.

Meanwhile, Liveu Liviescu, a Holocaust survivor threw himself between his students and their attacker, and was killed himself, on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

May the longtime Sun shine upon you, all love surround you. May the pure Light within you, guide you all the way home (Cherokee nation blessing).

So, it's OK to say terrorism is a possibility, just don't rush to judgment. And I don't think you did.

Is anybody going to get it about anti-depressants, or are we just going to let the drug companies make a fortune while the kids go nuts on that stuff. It's poison.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 17, 2007 5:58 PM

Muslim or not , it says something about Islam when someone goes crazy and kills people their behavior mirrors that of a devout believer doing his obligation for allah.
The only thing missing is a Quran and shouts of allahu ackbar and those details might be delibertly redacted to spare the feeling of the only real victims .

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at April 17, 2007 5:59 PM

I just read a couple of things as well:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/04/shooting_supect.html

And this one:

http://wheresyourbrain.blogspot.com/

We should acknowledge that islamic terrorism has paved the way for this sort of wanton slaughter. Which is why this terrorist shooter gave islam a last and final nod wby engraving his arm with the phrase "ismail ax"

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 6:02 PM

Apparently this individual acted upon his own crazy impulses.

Islam knows that every society has a few nutjobs like Cho Seung-Hui. The jihads find them, recruit them, blow them up with their enemies.

But the end result is the same: the spilling of innocent blood.

And the end of these killers is the same. Whether killing in the name of allah or killing incoherently and haphazardly, they, the destroyers of innocent life, end up with the creator of life, and for all of eternity face their depravity and burn in the realization of the enormity of their crime.

It's called Hell.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at April 17, 2007 6:04 PM

"ISMAIL AX"

Is anyone else hearing Orson Welles gasp "Rosebud"?

Prediction: Some sick producer is already planning an off-Broadway production of this monster's play.

Posted by: USBeast at April 17, 2007 6:07 PM

Great insight :-) What's not being said is the bigger story here. Trust me, there is some tail wagging of the dog going on at all levels in this tragedy...

Posted by: Green at April 17, 2007 6:09 PM

We know many other details of what he did, but we know little or nothing of why.

= demon possession

Posted by: Cheeky Human at April 17, 2007 6:15 PM

Agree with Robert and M.al-content - this is a teaching moment simply and primarily in that it exposes the terrible vulnerability of open societies such as our own.

Also: I heard on Australian radio news that the Koreans are worried about people in America possibly 'taking it out' on other Koreans because the killer was Korean; myself, I doubt they have anything much to worry about. Many Americans will have experienced Korean neighbours, workmates, classmates as pleasant, intelligent, hard-working, hospitable Christians or Buddhists and will have no difficulty recognising that this particular person was an isolated aberration, not an indictment of Korean culture and Koreans in general.

But: for this reason, precisely, we should be prepared to deal with people who will seize upon the events at Virginia Tech to 'prove' that because a sociopath from Korea [Buddhist?] killed 32 people [just as Martin Bryant who happened to be Australian (no religion in particular) killed a lot of people at Port Arthur], it shows that all cultures equally foster violence and that THEREFORE all acts of violence committed by Islamists should be similarly treated as regrettable aberrations and isolated incidents.

Final teaching point: the 76-year-old Romanian Israeli lecturer who sacrificed his own life, successfully enabling the escape of his students. What a hero! THAT is the Biblical, Jewish definition of heroism: a person who is prepared to die in order to preserve the lives of others. What a contrast with the actions of those in Iraq or from 'Palestine' who blow themselves to bits while trying to kill as many other people as possible.

When the Islamists boast about their own love of death, and sneer at Jews and Christians for our love of life (implying that we are cowards and fools) let them remember the example of that Jewish lecturer at Virginia Tech. I have no doubt that had he had a gun he would have used it to defend himself and his students; being unarmed, he did the only other thing he could, to preserve life.

May God comfort all those who mourn.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 17, 2007 6:19 PM

I would like to suggest that Cho's teacher have done 'more' in preventing this tragedy by going directly to the police with her concerns. And anyone else that may have noticed alarming signs.

This masacre did not happen without warning, as his English teacher was the first to report some disturbing things that were written in Cho's play to the school's counseling department; but she didn't follow-up on her concerns, and it sounds like the counseling department dropped the ball too. Why this teacher and/or the counseling department didn't go to the police is beyond me.

Anyway....heinous crimes like this do not occur without some kind of warning. There were red flags, and they went unreported. I don't want to blame anyone, but we can all learn from this by not ignoring the signs.

We can honor those who died by remembering this tragedy and by letting it serve as a reminder to report signs of trouble. To keep our eyes and ears open, and to not ignore 'the signs'.

It would be wiser to error on the side of caution by reporting suspicious and/or blatant behavior to the police. I know everything I just said goes without saying, but I just had to post a reminder to what we already know.

Posted by: champ at April 17, 2007 6:21 PM

2nd play from aol (apparently he had a friend who also works for AOL & retrieved this)

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

Even scarier than the first one.
From everything seen so far, weigh it against the pahblum these kids are fed by kook fringe professors at colleges across the country.
The parallels are striking.
"islam ax" was enough for me, though.
I said before, this is not the work of a distraught lover...and it's not the work of simply depressed people, as it was not spontaneous, but well planned out.

What frosts me most is the political hyperpartisan opportunists jumping on their own militant political agenda bandwagon (My God, man, have a little respect-some of the bodies were still warm when these con artists started in on their crap), especially the ad nauseum anti-self-defense issue (commonly known as "gun laws")...sickening...while hiding a disturbing achilles heel they're in hyperspin mode over.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55226
I bet VT spokesman Larry Hincker is NOW about self-defense being defeated just last year.

Nothing like making defenseless people even more defenseless, forget the fact that this is precisely why this many victims are all DEAD now.
Absolutely sickening.

My heartfelt thoughts and prayers go for those families of the dead and what they're going through, which is beyond horrid...I should know-I've been there.

Posted by: jcom972 at April 17, 2007 6:22 PM

http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/clickit/search?r_aid=CAE96FBB4E5B498CADA8813E401F7F70&r_eop=7&r_sacop=2&r_spf=0&r_cop=main-title&r_snpp=2&r_spp=0&qqn=1f!%27vm%2BA&r_coid=239138&rawto=http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ibrahim.htm

This is what comes up as a search of the writing on his arm. If the link to islam is found and covered from public view, it will invite and cause more of these killings.

I am not saying he is a follower, only that if it is found to be true and he is, will it be kept from the people?

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at April 17, 2007 6:24 PM

I was over at Powerline and just after the first shootings at the dorm at VA tech there were students who said they bet it was "Cho".Their comments were posted at a blog at AOL. Apparently Cho had a pretty bad reputation on campus.Would Cho have been subject to closer scurtiny had he not been a member of a racial minority? Why was Cho "this close" to attaining US citizenship? Do we want mentally unbalanced people of any race given US citizenship? Cho's parents are also living in the US have the authorities located them?

It's not surprising that people including Muslims believed this could have been a Jihad attack as almost no one believes the golden oldie about Islam being a "religion of peace".The Muslim response also shows why Islam is not respected. The Muslims first instinct is to CYA rather then work to try to prevent Jihad violence.It reminds me of CAIR's attacks on the television show 24 and the movie "United 93".While CAIR ignores Jihad slasher dvds being sold in mosques and islamic bookstores.No ones ever committed a murder after watching an episode of 24 but we know plenty of holy warriors have been inspired to kill by Jihad dvds.

Posted by: Roxane at April 17, 2007 6:28 PM

The lamb may lie down with the lion, but only one is going to get up.

The fantasy of disarming the law-abiding only allows the lunatics free reign.

Whether this was a lone nut or a symptom of something larger, the lesson should be gained is: you must learn to defend yourself against the possiblity of violence.

This school, even after 9/11, shows the same failure of seriousness as the government demonstrated with its haphazard response to Katrina.

When the real terrorist attack comes, it appears that the "natural warnings" like these (assuming "Ismail Ax" doesn't mean anything jihadic) will have been fatally ignored.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 17, 2007 6:29 PM

So! The man was just a weirdo and a psycho.

I can say right now the old saw "that guns don't kill, it's people that kill." He could just have well used a kitchen knife or a baseball bat. Or rat poison.

Posted by: allat at April 17, 2007 6:31 PM

I agree wholeheartedly, Robert. As I said in my post on the original item, maybe Ismail Ax (Ishmael) means something, maybe not.

It is the loss of so many innocent lives that is the tragedy here, and that we could do nothing to stop it.

Well, well, Wrathofasma, an apology to Robert, but none to me, who I take it you were including in your "bullsh*t comments" on the previous item regarding this tragedy. I am no "frothing-at-the-mouth conservative crazy", nope, never have been. I am quite sane, I assure you. I am also, in my own quiet, plodding way, converting a few people a month to our side. You know, the one that is against Radical Islam. It may not be a lot, but it is all I can do without turning those who may want to understand against us.

We are all after the same thing (I hope), which is to protect our freedoms and way of life here in this wonderful country.

Hopefully, we can learn from this horrible tragedy and better protect our youth, and ourselves.

Which side are you on Wrathofasma? I enjoyed your posts previously, and hope that I can get past this and do so again.

Posted by: igetit at April 17, 2007 6:40 PM

Which is why this terrorist shooter gave islam a last and final nod wby engraving his arm with the phrase "ismail ax"

________

Quite frankly, I do not know what "Ismail Ax" may or may not mean, and I think we need to wait for more facts on this one.

In regard to the note that he left; that indeed may be a long time in coming out, and even then, it might be heavily edited so as to render it useless to the general public.

I prefer to wait on this one.

Posted by: Monkeywho at April 17, 2007 6:45 PM

". . . here are some simple things that can be done to prevent a massacre on a college campus. Metal detectors, a comprehensive emergency plan, free self defense classes, better training for campus police and security just to name a few. That's about all that can be done to minimize damage.

This is ridiculous, a college campus, especially one the size of VPI. It is not like a high school with two or four buildings. You want a metal detector in each of approximately three hundred or four hundred doors? Some large universities have buildings that are outside of what would be considered the "campus." Some campuses are divided by major streets and highways. This is an impossible task unless one is willing to spend money and create a campus like Bob Jones University was in the 1970s, it may still be surrounded by a fence topped by barbed wire. Is that what you want?

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 6:48 PM

My first suspicion was a terrorist attack because the news mentioned that the attacker was asian, though I wasn't entirely sure if "asian" is an euphenism for "Muslim" in the US media. I guess it's not.

It's frankly a little suprising that Jihadists haven't already done something like this in the US.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at April 17, 2007 6:48 PM

After President Bush spoke at VT today, a man went up on stage, and started going into how we are all Allah's, and we all go to him in the end, and more. It really was not what I needed to hear, and it helped to wreck the words of the others. I found it made me quite upset, it was just wrong what was said.

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at April 17, 2007 6:49 PM

I found it fishy that they took so long to release his name, but it seems now that, barring some cover-up that only paranoia could drive one to percieve, he wasn't a jihadist. Just a deranged kid who couldn't fit in in society and took his revenge.

Whether jihad or not, this goes to show that our campuses are vulnerable. If I were a jihadist, I'm definitely taking notes on this guy right now. But as usual, I fear that authorities will do nothing and dress it up as some great accomplishment, such as has been done in the aftermath of 9-11. Half-ass, half-stepping...that's all they're good for.

Posted by: Ibn_Iblis at April 17, 2007 6:55 PM

I would like to know the significance of "ismail ax." There are Muslims in S Korea, you know. Hope someone finds out something soon.

Posted by: darcy at April 17, 2007 6:56 PM

igetit,

Okay, I'll eat crow and apologize for the BS comment post. Now I know that he really did have Ismail X on his arm. I still won't jump the gun and say he's a Muslim convert, like others do over here. But I re-read your original post and didn't see much of a hint at an Islamic connection. So I'm sorry.

I'm on your side. And sometimes we need to police ourselves so that we're not like the lefty moonbats (LGF always has posts about the madness at dKos), or the jihadists even. I went too far. I'm sorry.

Posted by: wrathofasma at April 17, 2007 6:56 PM

Spencer wrote: "But writing a cryptic phrase on one's arm and then going to kill people does not make someone a jihadist."

That's not the point. If a person is motivated by Islamic ideas to go out and kill, this may not make him a "jihadist" in the strict and official sense, but it still makes him lethally motivated by Islamic ideas -- not much different from the sudden jihad syndrome, where the motivating aim is to simply kill Infidels in order to help or "defend" Islam.

Spencer also wrote: "If he wanted to convey by this that he was engaging in jihad killings, he could have written "Allahu akbar" or any number of other phrases that would have been clearer."

This is flawed logic. A person motivated by Islamic ideas to go out and kill need not write on their arm a direct message to indicate that he is in fact going out to kill based upon that motivation: the writing on his arm could just express ongoing ruminations he might have had in general, again motivated by Islamic ideas. Just because such a written expression does not directly communicate his intent to link his act of killing with his motivation, this does not mean the motivation and inspiration are absent, nor that they have nothing to do with a possible sudden jihad syndrome -- nor, therefore, that they are not of special concern to us Infidels.

Posted by: remote_control at April 17, 2007 6:57 PM

I'm also not sure exactly what can be done to prevent future such occurrences without taking draconian steps to limit the freedom of movement around the campus.
One reader suggested metal detectors. On every building? At every door? Most halls have more than one entrance. Every hour of the day?
There are open areas on campus. Metal detectors don't help if the targets are outdoors.
Self-defense classes are a good suggestion but they might not be useful in every situation. Taking notice of people who seem withdrawn or depressed will be considered harassment or discrimination. The person who writes a horror movie is not necessarily unbalanced. Do you force very shy people into counseling?
Is the only answer a choice between security and freedom? If we prefer freedom then we have to accept the responsibility that comes with it and take the necessary steps to protect ourselves.

Posted by: PMK at April 17, 2007 6:57 PM

Wrathofasma, Stefan, Turner, et al

The rush to judgement is good. We should do some rampant speculating, and have a contest on who gets it right at the end. Anyone for a pool?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at April 17, 2007 6:59 PM

PMK,

"I'm also not sure exactly what can be done to prevent future such occurrences without taking draconian steps..."

I have a proposal that would help limit future deaths: Colleges should deputize a few dozen student Republicans (non-Muslim as well) and let them carry concealed handguns. They would act as volunteer deputies. (I say Republicans, because they would on average be the most responsible and levelheaded.)

Posted by: remote_control at April 17, 2007 7:02 PM

Prediction: Some sick producer is already planning an off-Broadway production of this monster's play.

Posted by: USBeast

Spike Lee comes to mind for the movie version.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 7:09 PM

Remote Control, I've had that same idea, but thought it was too crazy to even suggest.

Posted by: fedupinamerica at April 17, 2007 7:10 PM

I agree M Al-Content. This is a wakeup call! How is it that one guy can go into an institution for young adults, and off 50 people. Further pathetic is he stopped himself! So many things are wrong with this picture. Law-enforcement and educators need to get to work on this! This is a wakeup call!

Posted by: ofcourse at April 17, 2007 7:18 PM

This is what was posted at AOL by a former classmate of Seung Cho

When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho." ***

Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun...

What was Seung Cho doing in the United States? Clearly he was a menace to his fellow students.

Posted by: Roxane at April 17, 2007 7:24 PM

Robert writes: “I have also received messages condemning me for my "rush to judgment" and calling on me to retract. Yet the only post about these shootings before this one is here. In it, I highlight the fact that police said that there was no evidence that it was a terrorist attack.”

You did, Robert, but you also followed the headline “Virginia Tech shootings: "no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack"” with the comment "But all avenues will be explored."” And if that comment appears on a site called “Jihad Watch”, some people (including a number of the more hot-headed posters on this site) could reasonably draw the conclusion that you might have been implying that there was a jihadist element in this sad story. A miscalculation, in my humble opinion.

Posted by: JFGR at April 17, 2007 7:25 PM

How does Cho's crime fit in with the topic of this blog? Where and when was he identified as a Muslim?

Re the Aussie broadcaster's worry that we Americans will take out hard vengeance on Koreans, he needn't waste his breath. We went on no rampage against Muslims in our midst after 9/11.

My own take is that we should keep the law-abiding armed in these United States and remain vigilant. Even if we had European-style bans on various weapons in place, someone determined to wreak havoc would get his hands on something anyway.

Posted by: Kepha at April 17, 2007 7:28 PM

Wrathofasma, your extremely humble apology accepted. I can, once again, enjoy your many informative and enlightening posts. I try to never jump the gun on anything. I rarely post, as, usually other people beat me to what I wanted to say anyway, nor am I as eloquent as other posters on this site.

Well off to mindless TV. Time to let my brain recoup (if that is possible). Night everyone, and keep up the fight (although not with each other).

Posted by: igetit at April 17, 2007 7:39 PM

“My own take is that we should keep the law-abiding armed in these United States and remain vigilant. Even if we had European-style bans on various weapons in place, someone determined to wreak havoc would get his hands on something anyway.”

Yet cases of people going berserk and massacring scores of innocents seem to be far less frequent in Europe than America, with its libertarian attitude to the possession of firearms. A European might argue, in such cases, that liberty sometimes has its limits. And how do you “keep the law-abiding armed” but not the non-law-abiding, before someone shows that he's not law-abiding by shooting down innocents?

Posted by: JFGR at April 17, 2007 7:44 PM

We can dispense with the "-Hui" part of Cho's name in discussion of this incident. In China and Korea, and possibly other east-Asian countries, the last name is given first. So "Cho" is his last name and "Seung-Hui" his first name. But in this case "Seung Cho" is complete since that is how he signed his own literary masterpieces.

"islam ax" was enough for me, though. --jcom972

No, if that was on his arm then we would be having a very different conversation. It was "Ismail"

RC writes: "A person motivated by Islamic ideas to go out and kill need not write on their arm a direct message to indicate that he is in fact going out to kill based upon that motivation: the writing on his arm could just express ongoing ruminations he might have had in general, again motivated by Islamic ideas."

But usually they do just that RC. Why? Because they are very proud of what they've done, feeling they've pleased their bloodthirsty allah, and eager to have their brutal violence seen as a "teaching moment" to infidels everywhere, as with the killing of Theo Van Gogh in Holland where the killer even stabbed a note of warning to Van Gogh's chest. Plus, they want full credit for what they've done in order to receive their rewards in paradise.

Posted by: alexon at April 17, 2007 7:45 PM

Excellent points, Robert, and I think this makes clear for many why I, at least, have stoned my heart over the years to the idea of even co-existing with Islam in the United States. Sure, not many are ready to say 'Outlaw IT!', but I long have been. Just as you have rightly pointed out, the Muslims themselves would not have been at all surprised if Sueng-Hui had turned out to be a jihadist, nor would they be if he still does.

However, I am still not so quick to give up on the idea that he was indeed not driven to kill by Islam. All it takes is a Quran and some reading to turn into a jihadist. That's how powerful the message is in that book. Just as it only might take a Bible to create a born-again Christian out of a murderer, it only takes the scribed words of Muhammad to transmute an otherwise quiet loner into a killer. And we now know that he had violent fantasies that he not only dreamed of, but wrote about.

I'd say that the verdict is still a long way out on this one, either way.

Regardless, who can honestly say that there aren't Islamic terrorists hard at work putting together plans even as I type this -- to imitate and eclipse the work of Cho? The massacre at VA Tech is like a blueprint for disaster.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 17, 2007 7:51 PM

I believe that our Christian faith had some influence over the poor Soth Korean man. If only they let us preach the gospel on campuses.

Posted by: crusadertothecore at April 17, 2007 7:53 PM

Ismail, ishmael,
son of the prophet abraham,
and the main character
in Abraham's sacrifice
to allah in the koran.
Where did wu learn about this name?
Who taught him to so treasure this word,
he even tatooed it on his own skin.

Wu is not a 'jihadi'
but he is a cat's paw.
He may not have known islamic law
but he knew he wanted to end this game
by signing his name as ismail,
revered by the ismailites of islam.

Posted by: the poetess at April 17, 2007 7:56 PM

I did find it odd how the media kept coming up with Virginia Tech Muslim students for face and print time. Did anyone else noticwe?

There IS a message there for our consumption, I feel like I'm being treated like a slow child by the Media as they carefully plan how they want me to think.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at April 17, 2007 8:03 PM

I knew I seen that name somewhere! If you go over to April 17th-Abdullah a Muhajir (Padilla) jury -?About Islam! There is a posting there by the name of Ismail!
Ismail Arab word; a member of a branch of Shiite muslims whosemembers believe that Ismail son of the sixth imamam was the true seventh imam! I need all your pro-ideas of what it means. Strange message.

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 8:04 PM

The police after-action report will make instructive reading. No doubt our enemies will study it as well. Let us hope it is written by the Virginia State Police rather than VPI's University Police force. We have so many soft targets in our country. There is no real way to harden them. The best bet is attempting to identify people who are trouble before they can take action, but in that we are hampered by our need to keep a tight grip on our individual freedoms rather than surrender them to a police state. This will sound very harsh, but sometimes you just have to pay the bitcher's bill and take casualties. Our goal should be to keep that bill as low as possible. May God bless the victims and their families.

Posted by: MP at April 17, 2007 8:12 PM

I think Savage is spot-on re. the multi-kulti "memorial service" at Virginia Tech today.

And not a word about the one person who actually gave his life to save his students. Their professor Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor.

All those little prattlers and accusers.. [one woman went on about ivory poaching in Africa..] and their self-centered garbage...

..talking about the seduction of hate and other such platitudes.

The one person who remains a hero - until others become known: Prof. Liviu Librescu.

All this empty new-age feel-good talk is stomach-turning.

These people tuly know no shame. What can you say at a service like that?

Definitely none of the things that I heard on Savage.

Savage may be the last one left with a working brain.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:18 PM

The police might have got the credit in this story:

http://www.news8austin.com/content/news_8_explores/ut_tower_shooting/?ArID=167765&SecID=552

But missing from it the fact that many students ran to their cars for rifles and other firearms and also returned fire.

Nobody wants irresponsible people with weapons.

I, for one, believe 'carry' and 'concealed carry' laws tend to make a more polite public--not less.

There are millions of men and many women who have responsibly carried weapons at the same age as Cho and his victims that never did anything criminal with a gun.

Counting on 'authorities' to come to your rescue in an event like this is wishful, immature thinking.

Posted by: turn at April 17, 2007 8:26 PM

It's frankly a little suprising that Jihadists haven't already done something like this in the US.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop

Yep. I think they're waiting till after the election.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:28 PM

Easier just go to the top and find Abdullah al-Muhajir (Padilla) jury trial to start in Miami--
Ismail has a post on there!

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 8:32 PM

Damn.. if it wasn't for Savage I'd think I am insane! He's so right about this service today!

The jihadists are surely getting encouraged by these whiny-whines today..

Is this what we do when are are attacked??!! CRY??!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:36 PM

Allahfanculo,
Yes I just about choked when they hijacked my regularly scheduled radio program about 11 am pst, I finally had to turn it off. It’s all about them and what they can do to further their agendas or get attention. No wonder so many kids these days drop out who could stomach that kind of bilge for four years? If they graduate they should get merit badges for survival in an environment counterproductive to normal human reason. I have been to many a memorial service and that resembled none of them. I can only hope the parents of the dead go after these patheticos until they are run out of town on their PCMC bandwagons. Absolutely reprehensible but completely predictable. A nation of sheep being led by lemmings.

Posted by: tgusa at April 17, 2007 8:37 PM

hat resembled none of them. I can only hope the parents of the dead go after these patheticos until they are run out of town on their PCMC bandwagons. Absolutely reprehensible but completely predictable. A nation of sheep being led by lemmings.

Posted by: tgusa

What's wrong with a little Churchill instead of these "poets" trying to get on Oprah and on National Palestinian Radio?

Can't these things be done in a discreet and dignified manner?

Who needs all the crocodile tears? This shameless display of fake emotion?

God I think I am going to be SICK..

They should have mentioned Prof. Librescu who saved his students while giving his life by name. If they had any decency at all.

Mankind has learned so very little..

Satan is getting stronger by the day.. unopposed.. people of good will allowing people of weak moral character to grandstand.

Ah, if William Shakespeare were around.. He'd have so very much to write about!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:53 PM

Shakespeare if he were living today would have been put on prozac, and Churchill would have been labeled a hate monger.

Posted by: tgusa at April 17, 2007 8:59 PM

Robert, you said nothing unfactual or presumptuous in your earlier post and all here know that.

There are however, groups of individuals just oogling and waiting in the wings, breathing heavy, slobbing and drooling in anticipation of you making a mistake e.g. reporting untruths.

Well these people have been dissapointed again.

For this post, well said.

For the some of us commenters who jumped to presumptious conculsions or tilted a bit that way, shame on us.

Posted by: sounder at April 17, 2007 9:20 PM

And this is telling:

"I'm sitting here watching the convocation service at VT," wrote a WND reader who was given anonymity. "Five minutes ago they had four representatives from the local 'religious community.' The Muslim specifically invoked Allah's blessings… and he didn't shy away from saying the name of Allah. The Jewish rep asked for God's blessings. Buddha was represented. The only name that [was] omitted, of course, Jesus Christ."

To his credit:

It was left up to President Bush to come the closest to offering a biblical message of hope, when he suggested the school community that lost 32 members to the shootings by an out-of-control resident alien student find "comfort in the grace and guidance of a loving God."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55252

I need not comment further. The politics speaks for itself.

Posted by: witness at April 17, 2007 9:21 PM

Here is why I favor gun control. This attacker was not a criminal, and although he was eccentric, he lived within the apparent bounds of normality. He was rational enough to go to school, to obtain a gun and to execute people in a methodical way with it.
The fact is, a firearm in the hands of an apparently normal, law-abiding person can be used as lethal weapon should that person decide to use it as such.
I have heard the NRA pro-gun arguments and I agree with them. I even have a cousin who successfully fended off a shotgun-armed intruder in his drug store using a .38 revolver.
Yet, I still think that there is no good answer on how to deal with the normal person with a gun, gone crazy, which is pretty much what an Islamic terrorist is.

Posted by: jewdog at April 17, 2007 9:21 PM

The FBI joined police on the scene to investigate. Agency spokesman Richard Kolko in Washington said there was no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack, "but all avenues will be explored."
-from the article

JFGR wrote:
"You did, Robert, but you also followed the headline “Virginia Tech shootings: "no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack"” with the comment "But all avenues will be explored."”

JFGR, when someone 'comments' in quotation marks, in the English language it means that they are 'quoting' someone else, not commenting. That line was a direct quote from the FBI agent, not Robert's comment. If you would have actually read the article you wouldn't be wasting valuable bandwidth with your completely unsupportable position.

The "I hate to admit it Robert, but you can see where you went wrong" scenario that you put forth is embarassing to yourself and merely provides ammunition for the detractors of this site which also undermines the thankless and tireless work that the administrators of JW/DW perform for the general public, educating the ignorant masses, us, to the reality of Islamic ideology.

It is beyond infuriating, knowing the attention that this site now draws, from those both in favor of and against Robert's position, for misconceptions like the one you posted to be allowed to be used to undermine the valuable work done here.

I recall Robert writing recently that we the community should step it up and not resort to idiotic postings which only serve to adulterate the true message here, providing ammunition for others who possess the internet power to do so, to write Robert off as a racist and a religious bigot, neither of which is true, in an attempt to silence him or ruin all his hard-earned credibility in all forms of media.

Small mistakes are amplified quickly in the PC world we live in. I would suggest to you JFGR, that you read the original article before you post on this topic again. I would also suggest that if you cannot understand the obviousness of Robert's original implication, that the FBI and the MSM are quick to deny links to terrorism in situations like these, even when the identity of the assailant has not yet been revealed, that you read the article again, and again, and again, until it sinks in. The invitation to actually read the article goes out to all "hot-headed" posters as well.

Then finally, you JFGR, should apologize to Robert for your destructive and erroneous 'comment' about him.

This is not an on-line gaming community forum, populated mainly by teenagers, in case anyone didn't know.

Posted by: awake at April 17, 2007 9:25 PM

Does Stephen King own any guns?

Posted by: champ at April 17, 2007 9:29 PM

alexon,

"But usually they do just that RC. Why? Because they are very proud of what they've done, feeling they've pleased their bloodthirsty allah..."

While the majority of such acts have been accompanied by such blatant boasting, the fact that some have not (examples: the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, the Beltway snipers where one only learned of the Islamic motivation factor long afterwards from the private journal of one of the shooters) means that we should not rule out of court the possibility of any given attack being motivated by Islamic ideas, just because that fact does not fit the "usual" pattern.

Also, my point is we have a hint of the possibility of an Islamic motivation with the one clue ("Ismail ax"), and this should rationally lead to an investigation of the possibility of further clues along that line. We don't know the contents of his computer or much else about him. From similar incidents before, we know that law enforcement and news media will likely not report that, for example, this particular shooter had been attending a mosque for a while, etc., or will at best let it slip but sweep it under the rug or try to obfuscate it.

Posted by: remote_control at April 17, 2007 9:29 PM

Fiddle with the letters of "ISMAIL AX" a bit.

ISLAM A XI
I ISLAM AX

Posted by: astuddis at April 17, 2007 9:31 PM

The Instant Grief Machine churned out at VT today was humanly embarassing.

Shouldn't they all still be in shock?

This rote tsunami of psycho-babble, pop-counselling and immediately-produced eulogies is chilling

Someone needed have said to all involved:

"Isn't it a little soon to be memorializing people whose bodies are still warm?".

Shameless. Shameful.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 17, 2007 9:36 PM

"All it takes is a Quran and some reading to turn into a jihadist. That's how powerful the message is in that book."

It is an "evil" text. It's the way the words seep into the mind and how they are absorbed into the psyche.

It's the vibration/sound, the repetition- mindless chanting.

But particularly the combination of the sounds.

Science is finding this out.

Posted by: allat at April 17, 2007 9:38 PM

The following quote is drawn from a story attributed to “Melissa Drosjack, Paul Wagenseil and the Associated Press”.

(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266523,00.html).

“He apparently had scrawled the words "ISMAIL AX" on the inside of one arm, which may be a reference to the Islamic account of the Biblical sacrifice of Abraham.”

The Biblical account that the authors may be referring to has to do with Abraham taking Isaac up to sacrifice him on Mt Moriah.

Genesis 22 (NAS)

The Offering of Isaac

1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

The narrative goes on to relate that God stopped the intended sacrifice and provided a ram in Isaac’s place.

Ishmael (the Arab variant is spelled Ismail) was also Abraham’s son but by the Egyptian slave Hagar and not by his wife Sarah. Arabs are counted as the descendents of Ismail and they hold that it was Ismail offered and not Isaac.

Allthat to say that “Ismail Ax” is more in keeping with a Koranic reference than it is with a Biblical reference.

But, if you do want to attach Biblical meaning to the words scrawled on the inside of the gunman’s arm, consider the opening lines of Moby Dick by Melville.

“Call me Ishmael. Some years ago -- never mind how long precisely -- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world.”

In Moby Dick, the narrator never does give his name, but by identifying himself with Hagar’s son, Ishmael, he tells us that he is a disinherited (maybe bastard) son. We can reach this conclusion as we know that Ishmael was put out of the camp by Abraham at the urging of Sarah who wouldn’t have the son of a slave as a rival for her son Isaac.

So (at least) two meanings could be easily attached to “Ismail AX”. One is that the gunman saw himself as a sacrifice to Allah, and the second that he saw himself as somehow being "disinherited" with "nothing particular to interest me" so he simply let loose.

Cheers,

Posted by: Mr. Arbroath at April 17, 2007 9:40 PM

Ahmedinejad is taking notes and likes what he sees. Expect things to get downright sporty when someone finally acts to take out his nuclear program.

This is written from New England. It was windy here for the last couple of days and there are tens of thousands of customers who will be out of power for the better part of a week (well over 100k for over a day) because a few dozen power poles were blown over in a random fashion.

Iran brags that it has identified a number of (12?) strategic targets stateside and has the bombers ready to go. Expect one of the targets to be the power grid. Say what you want about Iran, but at least they seem to be good to their word. A friendly reminder to keep some food and fresh water on hand.

Thoughts with the victims and their families.

Posted by: pez at April 17, 2007 9:41 PM

JFGR

"Yet cases of people going berserk and massacring scores of innocents seem to be far less frequent in Europe than America, with its libertarian attitude to the possession of firearms. A European might argue, in such cases, that liberty sometimes has its limits. And how do you “keep the law-abiding armed” but not the non-law-abiding, before someone shows that he's not law-abiding by shooting down innocents?"

I would counter argue that Europeans had two world wars because the average joe were not well armed. The elites in WWI and the facist/communist in WWII did plenty of killing in the name of government. So when the euros can figure out a way to keep governments honest without going nutz themselves we can talk about gun control. Until then we Americans will keep our guns. We are not that trusting of big brother to solve what needs to be solved.

Also when the Muslims take over in the next 50 years we will see who gets the last laugh and who was right.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 17, 2007 9:44 PM

Since I have referred to myself as an occasional hothead I must assume you are talking to me. Between the islamists/apologists/antagonists/netnannys and PC sellouts like you how does anyone get a word in edge wise? Here is a novel idea, read reread and reread again the CONSTITUTION of the United States of America paying particular attention to the BILL OF RIGHTS both documents it seems you would sell out for your version of the PC world just as they already have. That is what we are fighting for here not some utopian dream of yours. That is what the enemy wants to destroy and then they will take the world. You think this is some kind of PC game, that’s what got us where we are right now. And try posting w/o kindergarten insults maybe some will listen to you. Now go back to sleep before you get somebody killed.

Posted by: tgusa at April 17, 2007 9:51 PM

Robert,

Thank-you for your excellent reflection. Truly spot on.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 17, 2007 9:58 PM

Cheeky Human,

"We know many other details of what he did, but we know little or nothing of why.
= demon possession"

Sadly, it takes incidents like this mass killings to remind us that all these evils come from the ENEMY himself.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 17, 2007 10:02 PM

The Second Amendment allows Citizens to hunt and protect themselves. But it had a more important purpose-to allow the Citizenry to rise up and defeat an out-of-control government. People who argue to maintain ‘sporting’ weapons at the expense of handguns are off-base Constitutionally.

From Federalist 46; attributed to Madison:

To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed46.htm

Nothing to do with deer hunting. Police don’t like an armed Citizenry because they themselves are safer with the people unarmed. But they get paid to keep the people safe, not to keep themselves safe.

Posted by: pez at April 17, 2007 10:22 PM

Well, Ishmael Ax has a mother, father, brothers, sisters, relatives. Will we know anytime soon which religion they belong to? Did anybody ask the imam of the Virginia mosque (don't tell me there is none) if Ishamel has been seen there, (surely he would tell the truth, haha) but perhaps somebody else did.

We know nothing yet. Sure he was a madman. Definately he was a terrorist. But his motivation must have come from somewhere. And 'debauchery' and resentment of 'rich kidz' is a bit too flakey. I don't buy it.

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/17/ahmadiyya-muslims-confirm-eating-pork-makes-you-homosexual/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 17, 2007 10:24 PM

Allahfanculo,

When that English department head did her "poem", while she I did not mind she saying the term "hookies", I had to when she mentions the Aids baby, the baby elephant, the children and the rouge armies, ete., I had to shut off the Foxnews.com live feed. Too much PC for my interests. Instead, prayed a rosary instead for those affected. Not once she mentions the heros that came out of this horor.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 17, 2007 10:34 PM

Forget this notify students by e-mail crap. How about the old air raid siren that screams "take cover and defend yourselves"?
It'll work for terror attack, too!

Posted by: crusader rabbit at April 17, 2007 10:35 PM

I searched the Qur'an and the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari (complete collection), Sahih Muslim (complete collection), Sunan Abu-Dawud (partial collection) and Malik's Muwatta) at USC and found nothing saying Ibrahim used an axe, or that described the "sacrifice" (as-Saaffat 37:100-111).

Genesis 22: 9-11 (the real story): When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied.

I find the E.D.E.N. Southworth Ishmael explanation better for Cho being an English major.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 17, 2007 10:39 PM

Does anyone else think that someone else may have written "Ismail Ax" on his arm after he shot himself?

Posted by: champ at April 17, 2007 10:46 PM

Allah at Hot Air and others are speculating that the cops misinterpreted the writing, which might have been "Ismail YK." He is a turkish siger which you can watch at youtube.

Following this vein, I googled "Ismail AK."

It's a real name. He is a doctor who specializes in brain disorders.

Here's an excerpt of a paper he co-wrote.
----------------------------------------------
Clozapine With Amisulpride for Refractory Schizophrenia
MARCUS W. AGELINK, M.D., ILKER KAVUK, M.D. and ISMAIL AK, M.D.
Gelsenkirchen, Germany

To the Editor: Only sparse data exist regarding combination treatments of clozapine with other psychiatric medications or ECT (1). Here we report on seven patients who received combined application of clozapine and amisulpride. Amisulpride is not marketed in the United States. It acts primarily on dopaminergic D2 and D3 receptors of the limbic system. Because of its lower induction of extrapyramidal symptoms and its better efficacy against negative symptoms (compared to typical neuroleptics), it is grouped among the atypical neuroleptics.

**Seven patients (four men and three women) with a **paranoid-hallucinatory (N=3) or schizoaffective **psychosis (diagnosed according to DSM-III-R) **gave written informed consent to be treated with **clozapine combined with amisulpride.
------------------------------------------------
Didn't I hear somewhere that he was taking medication?....

/Pure speculation and mental masturbation.

Posted by: astuddis at April 17, 2007 10:51 PM

"Does anyone else think that someone else may have written "Ismail Ax" on his arm after he shot himself?"

Besides Abdullah?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 17, 2007 10:57 PM

ENOUGH ALREADY!

If one in ten had been 'carrying' the death toll would have been less--we can't know how many less but, be assured, it would've been less than 32 innocents.

Jewdog wrote: "Here is why I favor gun control. This attacker was not a criminal, and although he was eccentric, he lived within the apparent bounds of normality. He was rational enough to go to school, to obtain a gun and to execute people in a methodical way with it.
The fact is, a firearm in the hands of an apparently normal, law-abiding person can be used as lethal weapon should that person decide to use it as such."

Most people fall into a realm that we may call 'normality'. If 'many' of those choose to carry a weapon, then those few who 'appear' to fall into that realm will either be prevented or quickly stopped from wreaking this kind of havoc.
___________________________________________

Having been married to a Korean woman who emigrated to the US at an early age (and having some experience with emigres of Korean and other cultures) I want to report some personal experiences.

My ex-((Korean)-wife came to the US before she was 3 yrs old. But she is burdened with being a bridge--an interface--between her Korean mother and American society. It is a challenge of alliegiances (I lost).

True 2nd generation kids have little to no trouble in assimilation But the children of language-challenged 1st gen immigrants often do--as I witnessed with the father of my 1st wife (of Italian descent).

These are often young people with an identity crisis--are they American or something else?

Cho was, no doubt, troubled on many levels There was a reason he commited what he did--we may never know--and that brings us no peace or closure. Damn him if you must; It's hard to feel Christian Charity for such as he. But we must try.

Posted by: turn at April 17, 2007 11:10 PM

The person who writes a horror movie is not necessarily unbalanced.

Amen to that. Stephen King is functioning quite normally, I think.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 11:12 PM

Not to mention he was a real mental case! That is the kind hezboallah likes to recruit.

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 11:21 PM

Pelayo said:

". . . here are some simple things that can be done to prevent a massacre on a college campus. Metal detectors, a comprehensive emergency plan, free self defense classes, better training for campus police and security just to name a few. That's about all that can be done to minimize damage.

This is ridiculous, a college campus, especially one the size of VPI. It is not like a high school with two or four buildings. You want a metal detector in each of approximately three hundred or four hundred doors? Some large universities have buildings that are outside of what would be considered the "campus." Some campuses are divided by major streets and highways. This is an impossible task unless one is willing to spend money and create a campus like Bob Jones University was in the 1970s, it may still be surrounded by a fence topped by barbed wire. Is that what you want?"

But that is only half the story. In any civilised society an academic campus should be totally immune from such attacks. It doesn't matter whether the attack is born out of excessive religiosity or just plain paranoid schizophrenia or even just criminal intent, academic campuses are off limits - period. Our best and brightest live and work in such places. Any attack on them is an attack on us. The best we can hope for is that this attack has nothing to do with the nightmare that is Islam and turns out instead to be simply one emotionally deranged individual killing people because of some insane personal reason. Let us hope that is as simple as that then we can pray for the dead and the injured and the poor deluded killer - and his family as well who must be feeling really bad right now.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 17, 2007 11:22 PM

Stephen, You have been weird lately!

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 11:24 PM

bigcatgirl13106,

"prayed a rosary instead for those affected."

Quite right. So did I, so should all of us.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 17, 2007 11:28 PM

This is ridiculous, no one, no one, no sane person at least, has ever blamed the proliferation of automobiles as a contributor to increased vehicular homicides. The next time someone willfully runs their vehicle into a crowded bus stop, I want someone to start lobbying for background checks for a driver's license.

To all of you who criticize the US gun laws:

This is one of the most selfish attitudes I can think of. You are willing to let some young police officer earning a salary half of what you make stiting on your over-stuffed posterior in an airconditioned office risk his or her life to save you hide. Buy a shotgun and shut up.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 11:30 PM

Since I now must assume you are seeking my personal attention tgusa, I will indulge.

tgusa wrote:
"Since I have referred to myself as an occasional hothead I must assume you are talking to me."

Now now tgusa, that was quite presumptive on your part. I will also be presumptive and assume your post was directed as a rebuttal to mine, even in the absence of you explicitly stating so. Consistent with my original post in this thread, I referred to the term "hot-headed" in quotations, as if professed by another, which I also clearly pointed out in my original post.

The frighteningly obvious tone of my post was directed as JFGR, and I also explicitly stated so. Quite frankly, I was actually unaware that you posted in this thread. I will do my best to pay more attention. That being said, your suggestion that I am a "PC sellout", might be the most ridiculous and unfounded criticism I have ever received from anyone in my entire life, nuclear family included. I apologized for not knowing that you posted on this particular thread, but what is more revealing, is that it is obvious that you must not have read anything that I have posted in the last year or so, before tonight.

I have read the "CONSTITUTION" and the "BILL OF RIGHTS", and I can assure you, the freedoms you think you enjoy here because of those documents, will not buy you another second of posting "privilages" here, quoting myself, because posting here is a privilage, not a right.

Besides your fallacy of blatantly internalizing my comments about another community poster, is also your fallacy of completely missing the entire point of my post. JFGR's post was irresponsible and simply incorrect. I am awaiting a correction to what I posted.

tgusa wrote:
"And try posting w/o kindergarten insults maybe some will listen to you. Now go back to sleep before you get somebody killed."

Now now, tgusa, I challenge you to list a single example of a "kindergarten insult" that I wrote. The gauntlet has been thrown down at your feet. Statements like "go back to sleep", is an obvious insult to me, antonymically derived from the irrelevent moniker that I use here. That would be my example of a "kindergarten insult", as professed by you. What is your best example of mine?

Posted by: awake at April 17, 2007 11:31 PM

I do feel really bad for the families and students everyone! This could be a good case of multiculturalism! Sometimes I wonder what country I am in. I am in a store and everyone was a different origin. They have not mentioned anything about his arm on tv so will we get the truth again? They are already crying discrimination (then)!!!! Some strange stuff coming out of this story about this kid!

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 11:34 PM

Robert

Yes there are things that could and should have been done. What do you think about this:

There has not been one question yet from the press or government about why a gun was sold to a foreign national. Begging the question of how to perform a background check on a foreign national, what part of the US Constitution gives an individual with a US tourist or student visa the right to own/bear arms within the US?
Which agency in China or Korea gave the pertinent background information on this individual? If a foreign national is allowed to own a firearm, wouldn't you think that the background check should include their country of origin and why wouldn't you then believe that more time would be required to check and verify the individual's past? If this individual were to request a gun in China or Korea, would he be allowed as a citizen???

It is very clear that we should oppose any concession to changes in the Constitution or Federal law which provides US Constitutional Right or Privilege to foreign nationals whether they are classified as enemy combatants or not.

Posted by: raja at April 17, 2007 11:40 PM

Raja, a person with permanent residency status can join the military. A permanent resident is subject to being drafted into the military. A permanent resident is one small step away from being a citizen. If we can force a permanent resident into the military, we can at least allow them the means to protect themselves as civilians.

Cho Seung-Hui has lived here since 1992; he was 23 years old when he put that gun to his head. I'll let you figure how old he was when he moved here if you can add and subtract. Yeah, he bought a gun, which he was legally entitled to do. Sometimes people buy guns who should not have guns, and sometimes people drive cars who should not drive cars. Sometimes people vote who should not be allowed to vote.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 11:54 PM

Look folks, the one thing that we don't know at the moment is whether or not this slaughter was motivated by the Islamic belief system or not. Not all such incidents are necessarily Islamic in origin. In our society today there are obviously a significant number of people who use the weapons we allow to them in all sorts of ways that do not necessarily have any religious bearing. Sometimes people simply go crazy. Sh*t happens.

Pelayo has a point. Guns don't kill people - people using guns kill people. Crime is personal; people commit crimes, not the inanimate machines they use. We all live in a society that is deeply threatened by terrorism. Terrorism is a crime but not all crime is terrorism. Sometimes the appearances can lead us to leap to judgement. I'll bet that this appalling incident turns out to be a pretty ordinary crime of passion and emotion unconnected to terrorism and on a par with other such shootings.

Perhaps strict and tight gun control on the European model for example would minimise such incidents - who knows - but that isn't going to happen so we just have to learn to live with a certain level of such crimes like this as the price we pay for the right to bear arms. Is it a price worth paying? that's up to you to decide.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 17, 2007 11:55 PM

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Ben Franklin 1759
Definitely one of our best and brightest.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 12:04 AM

The more I hear this guy was a real sczizhoid! I like the idea of a different siren for something like this.

Posted by: MZ at April 18, 2007 12:14 AM

The convocation held today was very strange for many reasons, but the oddest aspect was its timing. The dead students aren't even buried yet and the investigation is just beginning. I've never seen a memorial service, if that's what it was meant to be, planned and dispatched in such haste following a catastrophic event.

The assembled students did not appear to be grieving or particularly traumatized; many were chewing gum, talking on cell phones, or cuddling up with their boyfriends/girlfriends and by all appearances, were there in body only to fill an empty seat. The bored expressions were too obvious to ignore. The students' reaction to the "bloodiest campus attack in American history"
seemed extremely restrained and detached to me.

Something just doesn't feel right about this, from yesterday's carefully planned killing spree to the assembly held today, just twenty-four hours after the fact. I didn't see the speaker but I believe it was the president of Virginia Tech who made a reference to religions, and he named islam first, as if were the predominant religion in Virginia and the US. Christianity was mentioned last. The university made sure a muslim imam was on hand to spew islamic invective but Christianity had no representative, unless you want to count George Bush. I don't know if a rabbi spoke, I didn't see one. I guess they couldn't find a minister on such short notice, or maybe the Wahabbis own Virginia Tech too.

I couldn't stomach the entire fiasco, which sounded like a left-wing variety show. The "compassionate and caring" liberals seized this opportunity to focus on all of their most passionate projects and causes instead of the massacre that had just occurred. And unless it was mentioned after I turned it off, nobody said a word about the Jewish professor and Holocaust survivor who died trying to protect his students.

We'll see what's in the news about it tomorrow and the next day. I'm curious to see how deep the media will dig or if they have already developed and written the scripts to be fed to the American public. Something about the aftermath of this horrible tragedy freaks me out, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Posted by: Susanp at April 18, 2007 12:18 AM

tgusa,

Not as simple as that. Who's essential liberty? The victim's? The perpetrator's?

One man's liberty can be another man's oppression.

Cho Seung-Hui exercised his liberty to own and bear arms but deprived others of their right to life - their liberty of living and having a life - when he chose to exercise his right to use his arms for his own good reasons.

The world has moved on since 1759 - and become a vastly more complicated case than dear old Ben Franklin could possobly have imagined from his standpoint in his simple eighteenth century society. Ben has and had a point but is it relevant today?

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 12:20 AM

hmmm... I guess I coulda figured this.

Posted by: Karen at April 18, 2007 12:35 AM

Karen linked to http://www.aaja.org/news/aajanews/2007_04_16_01/ that said "AAJA urges all media to avoid using racial identifiers unless there is a compelling or germane reason. There is no evidence at this early point that the race or ethnicity of the suspected gunman has anything to do with the incident"

Yes, and they are right. We simply don't know at the moment, do we? Let's not leap to conclusions here.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 12:42 AM

Concerned Citizen,

You searched the hadiths: try the Muslim tafsirs & histories: Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Thalabi, and Kisai.

Posted by: remote_control at April 18, 2007 12:42 AM

Yes I think that it is and I think the events unfolding in Europe make that perfectly clear. Another holocaust is coming and this time it won’t just be Jews and Gypsies that are exterminated. A college campus protects nothing it cannot even protect its self. It relies on rough men ready to go in harms way to even survive. The islamists , where ever they go burn schools they light teachers and administrators on fire they behead small girls for the crime of wanting to learn. Considering European history I am not ready to gamble known truths for possibilities. Sacrifice your liberty if you choose but if it doesn’t work out the way you hope you will only have yourself to blame.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 12:44 AM

Let's not leap to conclusions here.
Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke

Conclusions? What conclusions? We all know how CAIR tries to manipulate the media. Didn't quite expect the Asian American Journalists Association (AAJA) to follow suit.

There is an attempt to deprive Americans from legitimate news here, based on erroneous preconceptions. What would you have said if the killer had been Muslim and CAIR said the same thing?

But thank you for trying to speak for me.

Posted by: Karen at April 18, 2007 1:04 AM

One last item. America is the oldest uninterrupted system of government in the world today, not GB, China, Russia, India or any other. And that is no coincidence; the framers of the Constitution were very thorough in the checks and balances they installed. All the checks and balances work together and therefore we are still going. However, start picking them apart and eventually the whole thing comes crashing down on our heads. They were a group of very smart men, I doubt we could get such a group together today. Knowledge is not the same as intelligence, and while we have more knowledge today there is not so much intelligence.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 1:08 AM

The reason the AAJA did not want this information released was because they thought it would reflect porrly on Asian Americans. A Journalist group for Muslims would undoubtedly have done the same thing, in CAIR-like fashion.

This is not good for truth in journalism. You may disagree, but that is whay I think.

Posted by: Karen at April 18, 2007 1:09 AM

SusanP; I was having a conversation with my wife when the Imam began speaking at the convocation. I didn’t mean to tune her out, but she caught it. My two words were ‘Good God’.

The lesson Ahmedinejad learned was that if you send in an operative with a 9mm you get:

1. Dozens of promising Americans dead.
2. An Imam sharing the national stage with the President of the United States.
3. Crying students.
4. Scared parents.

It is called Asymmetrical Warfare.

Posted by: pez at April 18, 2007 1:12 AM

The gunman has no ties whatever with Islam. That will become known shortly.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 1:20 AM

Personally, I don't think there's a problem about making speculations (was the perp following out an Islamic jihadist agenda or was he not?) asking such questions, making speculations -- was he, wasn't he? -- This is Not the problem. Asking questions is perfectly normal.

The problem is when a person acts as if it's an open and shut case -- "Yeah, it's beyond a doubt a Muslim perp" or "Yeah, it's the American culture of violence." And these conclusions are made/drawn not due to any evidence at hand, but rather because someone has an axe to grind.

Furthermore, I am more than willing to give blogs a degree of lee-way (I mean, so what? who really cares?) I have far less patience, however, for mainstream media which invariably engages in casting judgements (typically against "American society") and it's sans/without evidence.

Thus, Lou Dobbs -- before knowing it was a Korean psychotic who was the perp-- "We'll be talking with a panel of experts about what is driving in our culture and our society some people to take such deadly action. And what is next for all of us affected by this tragedy." Later, Dobbs: "Professor, I know that as Professor Sheras said in particular, it's very difficult to try to figure out in general what is happening here.

But there are certain impulses in this society and culture that has -- that must be driving this. We've had just about 200 murders on our campuses, our all sorts of public schools in this country, over the last 80 years. But they're accelerating. Is there something happening in our culture, our society that you think could be driving it?" Professor Nation, do you -- do you believe there is any specific identifiable cultural or social impulse that is driving this kind of violence?

NATION: Well, I think there are a variety of factors, and we, as a culture, know many of them. Certainly the level of violence that our children observe, the access to guns. I mean it's true that, to some degree, that there's always been issues of aggression among school-age children. But when you mix that with also the access to guns. And there's certainly the increased likelihood that you're going to have deadly violence, as we've seen in the last few years.

DOBBS: Professor Arum, the idea that this culture is creating -- is creating the forces, or is at least playing a major role in driving these people to violence, where does it begin? And what, if anything, can be done about it?"

Etc., Etc.

Imagine that "this culture" was not a reference to American culture, but a reference to islamic culture...as I laugh...one can hear the screams from CAIR as I write (but, of course, we all know that no MSM would dare make such allegations about any culture other than American). In other words, it's perfectly acceptable to mount an attack against American culture (without knowing anything about the actual perp's background), make blanket accusations -- "it's the American gun culture" -- "it's the Americans love of violence" -- no problem! But even a mere speculation in the order of -- "Could it possibly be related to Islamic terrorism??" Now that's Taboo! and worthy of instantaneous censure! Anyway, if there are to be any "apologies" or "retractions" it should begin with the MSM -- not R.S.

Posted by: J.S. at April 18, 2007 1:23 AM

Is there a rule that local cops have to stand around listening to gunfire while they wait for the State SWAT team to assemble on the scene?

Posted by: Bingo at April 18, 2007 1:34 AM

The biggest change in America over the last 30 years is primarily immigration based. Hmmm, do they want to discuss that? I doubt it. When we allow some immigrants who can’t seem to handle freedom into the country I don’t think it is a surprise that we are seeing friction develop and some committing horrendous crimes. Some will say what about this guy or that guy they went on killing sprees, yes and most if not all have been found to be all narced up, by drug dealers, I mean doctors.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 1:40 AM

In this story, there is this reference to Cho's religion:

A law enforcement official who read Cho's note described it Tuesday as a typed, eight-page rant against rich kids and religion. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. [...] Cho indicated in his letter that the end was near and that there was a deed to be done, the official said. He also expressed disappointment in his own religion, and made several references to Christianity, the official said.

So, is his "own religion" Christianity, or something else? Waiting...

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 1:44 AM

Why would someone intent on killing himself take the trouble to file the serial numbers off the weapons?

Posted by: dms at April 18, 2007 1:47 AM

tgusa,

A great short speech but a long way short of reality. Like most non-Europeans you simply don't get it. What our governments say and what we do are two entirely different things. I think that you really don't understand the extent to which most of us simply don't co-operate with the so-called powers that be - and probably never have.

One of the great problems for any government of a European State is the extent to which its citizens lie. When asked about what we want, what we think, what we believe, the default position is one of untruth. No Brit, no Frenchie, no Spic or Eytie would ever dream of telling the truth to a Government enquiry or a pollster. We simply don't do that. Governing a European country is an artform because none of us, not one single person, ever tells the truth to government.

Just one example should suffice: it's reckoned that tax avoidance in Europe amounts to some forty percent of the potential total government take on income from all sources because most people lie about their income and its sources. Interesting n'est pas? However, in the USA it's calculated that tax avoidance amounts to just 4.3% of the total potential government take because most people in the USA reply honestly on their Tax Forms. No European would dream of being that honest or of telling our government(s) that much about us.

Europe might fall to the Islamics - that I grant you. But it will not fall by being subservient to its government machineries as you are. It will fall to the Islamics because its citizens cannot, and will not, co-ordinate their actions against their common enemy. It will fall because Europeans don't trust government, don't trust direc