Well said.

Posted by: justamomof4 at April 17, 2007 5:05 PM

Robert said

If he wanted to convey by this that he was engaging in jihad killings, he could have written "Allahu akbar" or any number of other phrases that would have been clearer.

I am most interested in reading his "long, rambling note" that talks about the "debauchery" of his fellow students. Cho's play has been posted, as linked above in thesmokinggun, since that was in the possession of his classmates, not the authorities. It may be a long while before the "long, rambling note" is released, unfortunately.

Posted by: special_guest at April 17, 2007 5:07 PM

If the name is literal, Ismail is Muslim of the Asian "Khan" linguistic family group.

Posted by: Lame Cherry at April 17, 2007 5:12 PM

as i said last night, i think the main point now is that this serves as a terrible warning.
following the FBI/DHS warnings of attacks on schools, security should have been high at all US educational establishments.
if this attack had been carried out by an organised terror squad with automatic weapons and explosives, instead of one loser with 2 handguns, the deathtoll would have been in hundreds.
if the authorities do not learn major lessons from this then there will be a terrible price to pay, because we can be sure that the terrorists will be looking at this attack with great interest, and will surely want to outdo it scale and ferocity.

Posted by: M Al-Content at April 17, 2007 5:16 PM

Robert wrote: "And that is ultimately one of the principal lessons of this horrific episode at Virginia Tech: these attacks could happen any time, there is little or nothing to prevent them from happening on college campuses or in other crowded public spaces, and little or nothing is being done about that, although there are many things that can, and should, be done about it."

I have to say that you made a pretty profound statement here and in some respects I agree with you that there is nothing we can do about this kind of an incident ever happening again. But then you go on to say there are things we should be doing. I'd ask what is it you think we could be doing, bearing in mind that you are talking about complexes that are historically not only liberal in political philosophy but liberal from the perspective of limiting or rather restricting student access to both facilities and activities. And I understand why this is so. It allows for the maturing of immature minds. So with all that said, I'm curious as to what you think should be done yet not erasing those freedoms that most colleges and universities in this country find necessary parts of their community?

Posted by: DWS at April 17, 2007 5:33 PM

Mea culpa Mr. Spencer. It's just that I got really angry reading a post by that f-ing idiot Debbie Schlussel on the shooting and to see that post made me think you went down to her level. Glad you clarified. I know you're not like the frothing-at-the-mouth crazy conservative bloggers I've read. Sadly I can't say that about some of the commenters.

And DWS, here are some simple things that can be done to prevent a massacre on a college campus. Metal detectors, a comprehensive emergency plan, free self defense classes, better training for campus police and security just to name a few. That's about all that can be done to minimize damage.

Posted by: wrathofasma at April 17, 2007 5:45 PM

In other words when somebody says something crazy we should take it serious. That goes for Korean English majors and for Jihadist who say things just as crazy if not more everyday.

Thus the lesson of the day....

:)

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 17, 2007 5:49 PM

Hi, Robert ...

I wouldn't worry at all about this, if I were you. I didn't think your original post convicted him. The truth is that until we have an identified subject whose identity and motive we can identify, we are all going to think that it's possibly terrorism -- and we are all going to dread the general appeasement-head-of-the-facts that we normally get from the FBI and law enforcement in general.

Just watching a psychiatrist on Fox, who is basically saying the kid's on anti-depressant drugs, has left a veritable RAFT of threats, violent behavior, woman-stalking, written ravings, and leaving a note railing at "rich kids" -- and that there as AMPLE just cause for serious intervention, and that nobody did, including, apparently, the doctor who prescribed these drugs.

Meanwhile, Liveu Liviescu, a Holocaust survivor threw himself between his students and their attacker, and was killed himself, on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

May the longtime Sun shine upon you, all love surround you. May the pure Light within you, guide you all the way home (Cherokee nation blessing).

So, it's OK to say terrorism is a possibility, just don't rush to judgment. And I don't think you did.

Is anybody going to get it about anti-depressants, or are we just going to let the drug companies make a fortune while the kids go nuts on that stuff. It's poison.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 17, 2007 5:58 PM

Muslim or not , it says something about Islam when someone goes crazy and kills people their behavior mirrors that of a devout believer doing his obligation for allah.
The only thing missing is a Quran and shouts of allahu ackbar and those details might be delibertly redacted to spare the feeling of the only real victims .

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at April 17, 2007 5:59 PM

I just read a couple of things as well:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/04/shooting_supect.html

And this one:

http://wheresyourbrain.blogspot.com/

We should acknowledge that islamic terrorism has paved the way for this sort of wanton slaughter. Which is why this terrorist shooter gave islam a last and final nod wby engraving his arm with the phrase "ismail ax"

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 6:02 PM

Apparently this individual acted upon his own crazy impulses.

Islam knows that every society has a few nutjobs like Cho Seung-Hui. The jihads find them, recruit them, blow them up with their enemies.

But the end result is the same: the spilling of innocent blood.

And the end of these killers is the same. Whether killing in the name of allah or killing incoherently and haphazardly, they, the destroyers of innocent life, end up with the creator of life, and for all of eternity face their depravity and burn in the realization of the enormity of their crime.

It's called Hell.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at April 17, 2007 6:04 PM

"ISMAIL AX"

Is anyone else hearing Orson Welles gasp "Rosebud"?

Prediction: Some sick producer is already planning an off-Broadway production of this monster's play.

Posted by: USBeast at April 17, 2007 6:07 PM

Great insight :-) What's not being said is the bigger story here. Trust me, there is some tail wagging of the dog going on at all levels in this tragedy...

Posted by: Green at April 17, 2007 6:09 PM

We know many other details of what he did, but we know little or nothing of why.

= demon possession

Posted by: Cheeky Human at April 17, 2007 6:15 PM

Agree with Robert and M.al-content - this is a teaching moment simply and primarily in that it exposes the terrible vulnerability of open societies such as our own.

Also: I heard on Australian radio news that the Koreans are worried about people in America possibly 'taking it out' on other Koreans because the killer was Korean; myself, I doubt they have anything much to worry about. Many Americans will have experienced Korean neighbours, workmates, classmates as pleasant, intelligent, hard-working, hospitable Christians or Buddhists and will have no difficulty recognising that this particular person was an isolated aberration, not an indictment of Korean culture and Koreans in general.

But: for this reason, precisely, we should be prepared to deal with people who will seize upon the events at Virginia Tech to 'prove' that because a sociopath from Korea [Buddhist?] killed 32 people [just as Martin Bryant who happened to be Australian (no religion in particular) killed a lot of people at Port Arthur], it shows that all cultures equally foster violence and that THEREFORE all acts of violence committed by Islamists should be similarly treated as regrettable aberrations and isolated incidents.

Final teaching point: the 76-year-old Romanian Israeli lecturer who sacrificed his own life, successfully enabling the escape of his students. What a hero! THAT is the Biblical, Jewish definition of heroism: a person who is prepared to die in order to preserve the lives of others. What a contrast with the actions of those in Iraq or from 'Palestine' who blow themselves to bits while trying to kill as many other people as possible.

When the Islamists boast about their own love of death, and sneer at Jews and Christians for our love of life (implying that we are cowards and fools) let them remember the example of that Jewish lecturer at Virginia Tech. I have no doubt that had he had a gun he would have used it to defend himself and his students; being unarmed, he did the only other thing he could, to preserve life.

May God comfort all those who mourn.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 17, 2007 6:19 PM

I would like to suggest that Cho's teacher have done 'more' in preventing this tragedy by going directly to the police with her concerns. And anyone else that may have noticed alarming signs.

This masacre did not happen without warning, as his English teacher was the first to report some disturbing things that were written in Cho's play to the school's counseling department; but she didn't follow-up on her concerns, and it sounds like the counseling department dropped the ball too. Why this teacher and/or the counseling department didn't go to the police is beyond me.

Anyway....heinous crimes like this do not occur without some kind of warning. There were red flags, and they went unreported. I don't want to blame anyone, but we can all learn from this by not ignoring the signs.

We can honor those who died by remembering this tragedy and by letting it serve as a reminder to report signs of trouble. To keep our eyes and ears open, and to not ignore 'the signs'.

It would be wiser to error on the side of caution by reporting suspicious and/or blatant behavior to the police. I know everything I just said goes without saying, but I just had to post a reminder to what we already know.

Posted by: champ at April 17, 2007 6:21 PM

2nd play from aol (apparently he had a friend who also works for AOL & retrieved this)

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

Even scarier than the first one.
From everything seen so far, weigh it against the pahblum these kids are fed by kook fringe professors at colleges across the country.
The parallels are striking.
"islam ax" was enough for me, though.
I said before, this is not the work of a distraught lover...and it's not the work of simply depressed people, as it was not spontaneous, but well planned out.

What frosts me most is the political hyperpartisan opportunists jumping on their own militant political agenda bandwagon (My God, man, have a little respect-some of the bodies were still warm when these con artists started in on their crap), especially the ad nauseum anti-self-defense issue (commonly known as "gun laws")...sickening...while hiding a disturbing achilles heel they're in hyperspin mode over.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55226
I bet VT spokesman Larry Hincker is NOW about self-defense being defeated just last year.

Nothing like making defenseless people even more defenseless, forget the fact that this is precisely why this many victims are all DEAD now.
Absolutely sickening.

My heartfelt thoughts and prayers go for those families of the dead and what they're going through, which is beyond horrid...I should know-I've been there.

Posted by: jcom972 at April 17, 2007 6:22 PM

http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/clickit/search?r_aid=CAE96FBB4E5B498CADA8813E401F7F70&r_eop=7&r_sacop=2&r_spf=0&r_cop=main-title&r_snpp=2&r_spp=0&qqn=1f!%27vm%2BA&r_coid=239138&rawto=http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ibrahim.htm

This is what comes up as a search of the writing on his arm. If the link to islam is found and covered from public view, it will invite and cause more of these killings.

I am not saying he is a follower, only that if it is found to be true and he is, will it be kept from the people?

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at April 17, 2007 6:24 PM

I was over at Powerline and just after the first shootings at the dorm at VA tech there were students who said they bet it was "Cho".Their comments were posted at a blog at AOL. Apparently Cho had a pretty bad reputation on campus.Would Cho have been subject to closer scurtiny had he not been a member of a racial minority? Why was Cho "this close" to attaining US citizenship? Do we want mentally unbalanced people of any race given US citizenship? Cho's parents are also living in the US have the authorities located them?

It's not surprising that people including Muslims believed this could have been a Jihad attack as almost no one believes the golden oldie about Islam being a "religion of peace".The Muslim response also shows why Islam is not respected. The Muslims first instinct is to CYA rather then work to try to prevent Jihad violence.It reminds me of CAIR's attacks on the television show 24 and the movie "United 93".While CAIR ignores Jihad slasher dvds being sold in mosques and islamic bookstores.No ones ever committed a murder after watching an episode of 24 but we know plenty of holy warriors have been inspired to kill by Jihad dvds.

Posted by: Roxane at April 17, 2007 6:28 PM

The lamb may lie down with the lion, but only one is going to get up.

The fantasy of disarming the law-abiding only allows the lunatics free reign.

Whether this was a lone nut or a symptom of something larger, the lesson should be gained is: you must learn to defend yourself against the possiblity of violence.

This school, even after 9/11, shows the same failure of seriousness as the government demonstrated with its haphazard response to Katrina.

When the real terrorist attack comes, it appears that the "natural warnings" like these (assuming "Ismail Ax" doesn't mean anything jihadic) will have been fatally ignored.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 17, 2007 6:29 PM

So! The man was just a weirdo and a psycho.

I can say right now the old saw "that guns don't kill, it's people that kill." He could just have well used a kitchen knife or a baseball bat. Or rat poison.

Posted by: allat at April 17, 2007 6:31 PM

I agree wholeheartedly, Robert. As I said in my post on the original item, maybe Ismail Ax (Ishmael) means something, maybe not.

It is the loss of so many innocent lives that is the tragedy here, and that we could do nothing to stop it.

Well, well, Wrathofasma, an apology to Robert, but none to me, who I take it you were including in your "bullsh*t comments" on the previous item regarding this tragedy. I am no "frothing-at-the-mouth conservative crazy", nope, never have been. I am quite sane, I assure you. I am also, in my own quiet, plodding way, converting a few people a month to our side. You know, the one that is against Radical Islam. It may not be a lot, but it is all I can do without turning those who may want to understand against us.

We are all after the same thing (I hope), which is to protect our freedoms and way of life here in this wonderful country.

Hopefully, we can learn from this horrible tragedy and better protect our youth, and ourselves.

Which side are you on Wrathofasma? I enjoyed your posts previously, and hope that I can get past this and do so again.

Posted by: igetit at April 17, 2007 6:40 PM

Which is why this terrorist shooter gave islam a last and final nod wby engraving his arm with the phrase "ismail ax"

________

Quite frankly, I do not know what "Ismail Ax" may or may not mean, and I think we need to wait for more facts on this one.

In regard to the note that he left; that indeed may be a long time in coming out, and even then, it might be heavily edited so as to render it useless to the general public.

I prefer to wait on this one.

Posted by: Monkeywho at April 17, 2007 6:45 PM

". . . here are some simple things that can be done to prevent a massacre on a college campus. Metal detectors, a comprehensive emergency plan, free self defense classes, better training for campus police and security just to name a few. That's about all that can be done to minimize damage.

This is ridiculous, a college campus, especially one the size of VPI. It is not like a high school with two or four buildings. You want a metal detector in each of approximately three hundred or four hundred doors? Some large universities have buildings that are outside of what would be considered the "campus." Some campuses are divided by major streets and highways. This is an impossible task unless one is willing to spend money and create a campus like Bob Jones University was in the 1970s, it may still be surrounded by a fence topped by barbed wire. Is that what you want?

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 6:48 PM

My first suspicion was a terrorist attack because the news mentioned that the attacker was asian, though I wasn't entirely sure if "asian" is an euphenism for "Muslim" in the US media. I guess it's not.

It's frankly a little suprising that Jihadists haven't already done something like this in the US.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at April 17, 2007 6:48 PM

After President Bush spoke at VT today, a man went up on stage, and started going into how we are all Allah's, and we all go to him in the end, and more. It really was not what I needed to hear, and it helped to wreck the words of the others. I found it made me quite upset, it was just wrong what was said.

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at April 17, 2007 6:49 PM

I found it fishy that they took so long to release his name, but it seems now that, barring some cover-up that only paranoia could drive one to percieve, he wasn't a jihadist. Just a deranged kid who couldn't fit in in society and took his revenge.

Whether jihad or not, this goes to show that our campuses are vulnerable. If I were a jihadist, I'm definitely taking notes on this guy right now. But as usual, I fear that authorities will do nothing and dress it up as some great accomplishment, such as has been done in the aftermath of 9-11. Half-ass, half-stepping...that's all they're good for.

Posted by: Ibn_Iblis at April 17, 2007 6:55 PM

I would like to know the significance of "ismail ax." There are Muslims in S Korea, you know. Hope someone finds out something soon.

Posted by: darcy at April 17, 2007 6:56 PM

igetit,

Okay, I'll eat crow and apologize for the BS comment post. Now I know that he really did have Ismail X on his arm. I still won't jump the gun and say he's a Muslim convert, like others do over here. But I re-read your original post and didn't see much of a hint at an Islamic connection. So I'm sorry.

I'm on your side. And sometimes we need to police ourselves so that we're not like the lefty moonbats (LGF always has posts about the madness at dKos), or the jihadists even. I went too far. I'm sorry.

Posted by: wrathofasma at April 17, 2007 6:56 PM

Spencer wrote: "But writing a cryptic phrase on one's arm and then going to kill people does not make someone a jihadist."

That's not the point. If a person is motivated by Islamic ideas to go out and kill, this may not make him a "jihadist" in the strict and official sense, but it still makes him lethally motivated by Islamic ideas -- not much different from the sudden jihad syndrome, where the motivating aim is to simply kill Infidels in order to help or "defend" Islam.

Spencer also wrote: "If he wanted to convey by this that he was engaging in jihad killings, he could have written "Allahu akbar" or any number of other phrases that would have been clearer."

This is flawed logic. A person motivated by Islamic ideas to go out and kill need not write on their arm a direct message to indicate that he is in fact going out to kill based upon that motivation: the writing on his arm could just express ongoing ruminations he might have had in general, again motivated by Islamic ideas. Just because such a written expression does not directly communicate his intent to link his act of killing with his motivation, this does not mean the motivation and inspiration are absent, nor that they have nothing to do with a possible sudden jihad syndrome -- nor, therefore, that they are not of special concern to us Infidels.

Posted by: remote_control at April 17, 2007 6:57 PM

I'm also not sure exactly what can be done to prevent future such occurrences without taking draconian steps to limit the freedom of movement around the campus.
One reader suggested metal detectors. On every building? At every door? Most halls have more than one entrance. Every hour of the day?
There are open areas on campus. Metal detectors don't help if the targets are outdoors.
Self-defense classes are a good suggestion but they might not be useful in every situation. Taking notice of people who seem withdrawn or depressed will be considered harassment or discrimination. The person who writes a horror movie is not necessarily unbalanced. Do you force very shy people into counseling?
Is the only answer a choice between security and freedom? If we prefer freedom then we have to accept the responsibility that comes with it and take the necessary steps to protect ourselves.

Posted by: PMK at April 17, 2007 6:57 PM

Wrathofasma, Stefan, Turner, et al

The rush to judgement is good. We should do some rampant speculating, and have a contest on who gets it right at the end. Anyone for a pool?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at April 17, 2007 6:59 PM

PMK,

"I'm also not sure exactly what can be done to prevent future such occurrences without taking draconian steps..."

I have a proposal that would help limit future deaths: Colleges should deputize a few dozen student Republicans (non-Muslim as well) and let them carry concealed handguns. They would act as volunteer deputies. (I say Republicans, because they would on average be the most responsible and levelheaded.)

Posted by: remote_control at April 17, 2007 7:02 PM

Prediction: Some sick producer is already planning an off-Broadway production of this monster's play.

Posted by: USBeast

Spike Lee comes to mind for the movie version.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 7:09 PM

Remote Control, I've had that same idea, but thought it was too crazy to even suggest.

Posted by: fedupinamerica at April 17, 2007 7:10 PM

I agree M Al-Content. This is a wakeup call! How is it that one guy can go into an institution for young adults, and off 50 people. Further pathetic is he stopped himself! So many things are wrong with this picture. Law-enforcement and educators need to get to work on this! This is a wakeup call!

Posted by: ofcourse at April 17, 2007 7:18 PM

This is what was posted at AOL by a former classmate of Seung Cho

When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho." ***

Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun...

What was Seung Cho doing in the United States? Clearly he was a menace to his fellow students.

Posted by: Roxane at April 17, 2007 7:24 PM

Robert writes: “I have also received messages condemning me for my "rush to judgment" and calling on me to retract. Yet the only post about these shootings before this one is here. In it, I highlight the fact that police said that there was no evidence that it was a terrorist attack.”

You did, Robert, but you also followed the headline “Virginia Tech shootings: "no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack"” with the comment "But all avenues will be explored."” And if that comment appears on a site called “Jihad Watch”, some people (including a number of the more hot-headed posters on this site) could reasonably draw the conclusion that you might have been implying that there was a jihadist element in this sad story. A miscalculation, in my humble opinion.

Posted by: JFGR at April 17, 2007 7:25 PM

How does Cho's crime fit in with the topic of this blog? Where and when was he identified as a Muslim?

Re the Aussie broadcaster's worry that we Americans will take out hard vengeance on Koreans, he needn't waste his breath. We went on no rampage against Muslims in our midst after 9/11.

My own take is that we should keep the law-abiding armed in these United States and remain vigilant. Even if we had European-style bans on various weapons in place, someone determined to wreak havoc would get his hands on something anyway.

Posted by: Kepha at April 17, 2007 7:28 PM

Wrathofasma, your extremely humble apology accepted. I can, once again, enjoy your many informative and enlightening posts. I try to never jump the gun on anything. I rarely post, as, usually other people beat me to what I wanted to say anyway, nor am I as eloquent as other posters on this site.

Well off to mindless TV. Time to let my brain recoup (if that is possible). Night everyone, and keep up the fight (although not with each other).

Posted by: igetit at April 17, 2007 7:39 PM

“My own take is that we should keep the law-abiding armed in these United States and remain vigilant. Even if we had European-style bans on various weapons in place, someone determined to wreak havoc would get his hands on something anyway.”

Yet cases of people going berserk and massacring scores of innocents seem to be far less frequent in Europe than America, with its libertarian attitude to the possession of firearms. A European might argue, in such cases, that liberty sometimes has its limits. And how do you “keep the law-abiding armed” but not the non-law-abiding, before someone shows that he's not law-abiding by shooting down innocents?

Posted by: JFGR at April 17, 2007 7:44 PM

We can dispense with the "-Hui" part of Cho's name in discussion of this incident. In China and Korea, and possibly other east-Asian countries, the last name is given first. So "Cho" is his last name and "Seung-Hui" his first name. But in this case "Seung Cho" is complete since that is how he signed his own literary masterpieces.

"islam ax" was enough for me, though. --jcom972

No, if that was on his arm then we would be having a very different conversation. It was "Ismail"

RC writes: "A person motivated by Islamic ideas to go out and kill need not write on their arm a direct message to indicate that he is in fact going out to kill based upon that motivation: the writing on his arm could just express ongoing ruminations he might have had in general, again motivated by Islamic ideas."

But usually they do just that RC. Why? Because they are very proud of what they've done, feeling they've pleased their bloodthirsty allah, and eager to have their brutal violence seen as a "teaching moment" to infidels everywhere, as with the killing of Theo Van Gogh in Holland where the killer even stabbed a note of warning to Van Gogh's chest. Plus, they want full credit for what they've done in order to receive their rewards in paradise.

Posted by: alexon at April 17, 2007 7:45 PM

Excellent points, Robert, and I think this makes clear for many why I, at least, have stoned my heart over the years to the idea of even co-existing with Islam in the United States. Sure, not many are ready to say 'Outlaw IT!', but I long have been. Just as you have rightly pointed out, the Muslims themselves would not have been at all surprised if Sueng-Hui had turned out to be a jihadist, nor would they be if he still does.

However, I am still not so quick to give up on the idea that he was indeed not driven to kill by Islam. All it takes is a Quran and some reading to turn into a jihadist. That's how powerful the message is in that book. Just as it only might take a Bible to create a born-again Christian out of a murderer, it only takes the scribed words of Muhammad to transmute an otherwise quiet loner into a killer. And we now know that he had violent fantasies that he not only dreamed of, but wrote about.

I'd say that the verdict is still a long way out on this one, either way.

Regardless, who can honestly say that there aren't Islamic terrorists hard at work putting together plans even as I type this -- to imitate and eclipse the work of Cho? The massacre at VA Tech is like a blueprint for disaster.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 17, 2007 7:51 PM

I believe that our Christian faith had some influence over the poor Soth Korean man. If only they let us preach the gospel on campuses.

Posted by: crusadertothecore at April 17, 2007 7:53 PM

Ismail, ishmael,
son of the prophet abraham,
and the main character
in Abraham's sacrifice
to allah in the koran.
Where did wu learn about this name?
Who taught him to so treasure this word,
he even tatooed it on his own skin.

Wu is not a 'jihadi'
but he is a cat's paw.
He may not have known islamic law
but he knew he wanted to end this game
by signing his name as ismail,
revered by the ismailites of islam.

Posted by: the poetess at April 17, 2007 7:56 PM

I did find it odd how the media kept coming up with Virginia Tech Muslim students for face and print time. Did anyone else noticwe?

There IS a message there for our consumption, I feel like I'm being treated like a slow child by the Media as they carefully plan how they want me to think.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at April 17, 2007 8:03 PM

I knew I seen that name somewhere! If you go over to April 17th-Abdullah a Muhajir (Padilla) jury -?About Islam! There is a posting there by the name of Ismail!
Ismail Arab word; a member of a branch of Shiite muslims whosemembers believe that Ismail son of the sixth imamam was the true seventh imam! I need all your pro-ideas of what it means. Strange message.

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 8:04 PM

The police after-action report will make instructive reading. No doubt our enemies will study it as well. Let us hope it is written by the Virginia State Police rather than VPI's University Police force. We have so many soft targets in our country. There is no real way to harden them. The best bet is attempting to identify people who are trouble before they can take action, but in that we are hampered by our need to keep a tight grip on our individual freedoms rather than surrender them to a police state. This will sound very harsh, but sometimes you just have to pay the bitcher's bill and take casualties. Our goal should be to keep that bill as low as possible. May God bless the victims and their families.

Posted by: MP at April 17, 2007 8:12 PM

I think Savage is spot-on re. the multi-kulti "memorial service" at Virginia Tech today.

And not a word about the one person who actually gave his life to save his students. Their professor Liviu Librescu, a Holocaust survivor.

All those little prattlers and accusers.. [one woman went on about ivory poaching in Africa..] and their self-centered garbage...

..talking about the seduction of hate and other such platitudes.

The one person who remains a hero - until others become known: Prof. Liviu Librescu.

All this empty new-age feel-good talk is stomach-turning.

These people tuly know no shame. What can you say at a service like that?

Definitely none of the things that I heard on Savage.

Savage may be the last one left with a working brain.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:18 PM

The police might have got the credit in this story:

http://www.news8austin.com/content/news_8_explores/ut_tower_shooting/?ArID=167765&SecID=552

But missing from it the fact that many students ran to their cars for rifles and other firearms and also returned fire.

Nobody wants irresponsible people with weapons.

I, for one, believe 'carry' and 'concealed carry' laws tend to make a more polite public--not less.

There are millions of men and many women who have responsibly carried weapons at the same age as Cho and his victims that never did anything criminal with a gun.

Counting on 'authorities' to come to your rescue in an event like this is wishful, immature thinking.

Posted by: turn at April 17, 2007 8:26 PM

It's frankly a little suprising that Jihadists haven't already done something like this in the US.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop

Yep. I think they're waiting till after the election.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:28 PM

Easier just go to the top and find Abdullah al-Muhajir (Padilla) jury trial to start in Miami--
Ismail has a post on there!

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 8:32 PM

Damn.. if it wasn't for Savage I'd think I am insane! He's so right about this service today!

The jihadists are surely getting encouraged by these whiny-whines today..

Is this what we do when are are attacked??!! CRY??!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:36 PM

Allahfanculo,
Yes I just about choked when they hijacked my regularly scheduled radio program about 11 am pst, I finally had to turn it off. It’s all about them and what they can do to further their agendas or get attention. No wonder so many kids these days drop out who could stomach that kind of bilge for four years? If they graduate they should get merit badges for survival in an environment counterproductive to normal human reason. I have been to many a memorial service and that resembled none of them. I can only hope the parents of the dead go after these patheticos until they are run out of town on their PCMC bandwagons. Absolutely reprehensible but completely predictable. A nation of sheep being led by lemmings.

Posted by: tgusa at April 17, 2007 8:37 PM

hat resembled none of them. I can only hope the parents of the dead go after these patheticos until they are run out of town on their PCMC bandwagons. Absolutely reprehensible but completely predictable. A nation of sheep being led by lemmings.

Posted by: tgusa

What's wrong with a little Churchill instead of these "poets" trying to get on Oprah and on National Palestinian Radio?

Can't these things be done in a discreet and dignified manner?

Who needs all the crocodile tears? This shameless display of fake emotion?

God I think I am going to be SICK..

They should have mentioned Prof. Librescu who saved his students while giving his life by name. If they had any decency at all.

Mankind has learned so very little..

Satan is getting stronger by the day.. unopposed.. people of good will allowing people of weak moral character to grandstand.

Ah, if William Shakespeare were around.. He'd have so very much to write about!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 17, 2007 8:53 PM

Shakespeare if he were living today would have been put on prozac, and Churchill would have been labeled a hate monger.

Posted by: tgusa at April 17, 2007 8:59 PM

Robert, you said nothing unfactual or presumptuous in your earlier post and all here know that.

There are however, groups of individuals just oogling and waiting in the wings, breathing heavy, slobbing and drooling in anticipation of you making a mistake e.g. reporting untruths.

Well these people have been dissapointed again.

For this post, well said.

For the some of us commenters who jumped to presumptious conculsions or tilted a bit that way, shame on us.

Posted by: sounder at April 17, 2007 9:20 PM

And this is telling:

"I'm sitting here watching the convocation service at VT," wrote a WND reader who was given anonymity. "Five minutes ago they had four representatives from the local 'religious community.' The Muslim specifically invoked Allah's blessings… and he didn't shy away from saying the name of Allah. The Jewish rep asked for God's blessings. Buddha was represented. The only name that [was] omitted, of course, Jesus Christ."

To his credit:

It was left up to President Bush to come the closest to offering a biblical message of hope, when he suggested the school community that lost 32 members to the shootings by an out-of-control resident alien student find "comfort in the grace and guidance of a loving God."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55252

I need not comment further. The politics speaks for itself.

Posted by: witness at April 17, 2007 9:21 PM

Here is why I favor gun control. This attacker was not a criminal, and although he was eccentric, he lived within the apparent bounds of normality. He was rational enough to go to school, to obtain a gun and to execute people in a methodical way with it.
The fact is, a firearm in the hands of an apparently normal, law-abiding person can be used as lethal weapon should that person decide to use it as such.
I have heard the NRA pro-gun arguments and I agree with them. I even have a cousin who successfully fended off a shotgun-armed intruder in his drug store using a .38 revolver.
Yet, I still think that there is no good answer on how to deal with the normal person with a gun, gone crazy, which is pretty much what an Islamic terrorist is.

Posted by: jewdog at April 17, 2007 9:21 PM

The FBI joined police on the scene to investigate. Agency spokesman Richard Kolko in Washington said there was no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack, "but all avenues will be explored."
-from the article

JFGR wrote:
"You did, Robert, but you also followed the headline “Virginia Tech shootings: "no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack"” with the comment "But all avenues will be explored."”

JFGR, when someone 'comments' in quotation marks, in the English language it means that they are 'quoting' someone else, not commenting. That line was a direct quote from the FBI agent, not Robert's comment. If you would have actually read the article you wouldn't be wasting valuable bandwidth with your completely unsupportable position.

The "I hate to admit it Robert, but you can see where you went wrong" scenario that you put forth is embarassing to yourself and merely provides ammunition for the detractors of this site which also undermines the thankless and tireless work that the administrators of JW/DW perform for the general public, educating the ignorant masses, us, to the reality of Islamic ideology.

It is beyond infuriating, knowing the attention that this site now draws, from those both in favor of and against Robert's position, for misconceptions like the one you posted to be allowed to be used to undermine the valuable work done here.

I recall Robert writing recently that we the community should step it up and not resort to idiotic postings which only serve to adulterate the true message here, providing ammunition for others who possess the internet power to do so, to write Robert off as a racist and a religious bigot, neither of which is true, in an attempt to silence him or ruin all his hard-earned credibility in all forms of media.

Small mistakes are amplified quickly in the PC world we live in. I would suggest to you JFGR, that you read the original article before you post on this topic again. I would also suggest that if you cannot understand the obviousness of Robert's original implication, that the FBI and the MSM are quick to deny links to terrorism in situations like these, even when the identity of the assailant has not yet been revealed, that you read the article again, and again, and again, until it sinks in. The invitation to actually read the article goes out to all "hot-headed" posters as well.

Then finally, you JFGR, should apologize to Robert for your destructive and erroneous 'comment' about him.

This is not an on-line gaming community forum, populated mainly by teenagers, in case anyone didn't know.

Posted by: awake at April 17, 2007 9:25 PM

Does Stephen King own any guns?

Posted by: champ at April 17, 2007 9:29 PM

alexon,

"But usually they do just that RC. Why? Because they are very proud of what they've done, feeling they've pleased their bloodthirsty allah..."

While the majority of such acts have been accompanied by such blatant boasting, the fact that some have not (examples: the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, the Beltway snipers where one only learned of the Islamic motivation factor long afterwards from the private journal of one of the shooters) means that we should not rule out of court the possibility of any given attack being motivated by Islamic ideas, just because that fact does not fit the "usual" pattern.

Also, my point is we have a hint of the possibility of an Islamic motivation with the one clue ("Ismail ax"), and this should rationally lead to an investigation of the possibility of further clues along that line. We don't know the contents of his computer or much else about him. From similar incidents before, we know that law enforcement and news media will likely not report that, for example, this particular shooter had been attending a mosque for a while, etc., or will at best let it slip but sweep it under the rug or try to obfuscate it.

Posted by: remote_control at April 17, 2007 9:29 PM

Fiddle with the letters of "ISMAIL AX" a bit.

ISLAM A XI
I ISLAM AX

Posted by: astuddis at April 17, 2007 9:31 PM

The Instant Grief Machine churned out at VT today was humanly embarassing.

Shouldn't they all still be in shock?

This rote tsunami of psycho-babble, pop-counselling and immediately-produced eulogies is chilling

Someone needed have said to all involved:

"Isn't it a little soon to be memorializing people whose bodies are still warm?".

Shameless. Shameful.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 17, 2007 9:36 PM

"All it takes is a Quran and some reading to turn into a jihadist. That's how powerful the message is in that book."

It is an "evil" text. It's the way the words seep into the mind and how they are absorbed into the psyche.

It's the vibration/sound, the repetition- mindless chanting.

But particularly the combination of the sounds.

Science is finding this out.

Posted by: allat at April 17, 2007 9:38 PM

The following quote is drawn from a story attributed to “Melissa Drosjack, Paul Wagenseil and the Associated Press”.

(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266523,00.html).

“He apparently had scrawled the words "ISMAIL AX" on the inside of one arm, which may be a reference to the Islamic account of the Biblical sacrifice of Abraham.”

The Biblical account that the authors may be referring to has to do with Abraham taking Isaac up to sacrifice him on Mt Moriah.

Genesis 22 (NAS)

The Offering of Isaac

1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

The narrative goes on to relate that God stopped the intended sacrifice and provided a ram in Isaac’s place.

Ishmael (the Arab variant is spelled Ismail) was also Abraham’s son but by the Egyptian slave Hagar and not by his wife Sarah. Arabs are counted as the descendents of Ismail and they hold that it was Ismail offered and not Isaac.

Allthat to say that “Ismail Ax” is more in keeping with a Koranic reference than it is with a Biblical reference.

But, if you do want to attach Biblical meaning to the words scrawled on the inside of the gunman’s arm, consider the opening lines of Moby Dick by Melville.

“Call me Ishmael. Some years ago -- never mind how long precisely -- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world.”

In Moby Dick, the narrator never does give his name, but by identifying himself with Hagar’s son, Ishmael, he tells us that he is a disinherited (maybe bastard) son. We can reach this conclusion as we know that Ishmael was put out of the camp by Abraham at the urging of Sarah who wouldn’t have the son of a slave as a rival for her son Isaac.

So (at least) two meanings could be easily attached to “Ismail AX”. One is that the gunman saw himself as a sacrifice to Allah, and the second that he saw himself as somehow being "disinherited" with "nothing particular to interest me" so he simply let loose.

Cheers,

Posted by: Mr. Arbroath at April 17, 2007 9:40 PM

Ahmedinejad is taking notes and likes what he sees. Expect things to get downright sporty when someone finally acts to take out his nuclear program.

This is written from New England. It was windy here for the last couple of days and there are tens of thousands of customers who will be out of power for the better part of a week (well over 100k for over a day) because a few dozen power poles were blown over in a random fashion.

Iran brags that it has identified a number of (12?) strategic targets stateside and has the bombers ready to go. Expect one of the targets to be the power grid. Say what you want about Iran, but at least they seem to be good to their word. A friendly reminder to keep some food and fresh water on hand.

Thoughts with the victims and their families.

Posted by: pez at April 17, 2007 9:41 PM

JFGR

"Yet cases of people going berserk and massacring scores of innocents seem to be far less frequent in Europe than America, with its libertarian attitude to the possession of firearms. A European might argue, in such cases, that liberty sometimes has its limits. And how do you “keep the law-abiding armed” but not the non-law-abiding, before someone shows that he's not law-abiding by shooting down innocents?"

I would counter argue that Europeans had two world wars because the average joe were not well armed. The elites in WWI and the facist/communist in WWII did plenty of killing in the name of government. So when the euros can figure out a way to keep governments honest without going nutz themselves we can talk about gun control. Until then we Americans will keep our guns. We are not that trusting of big brother to solve what needs to be solved.

Also when the Muslims take over in the next 50 years we will see who gets the last laugh and who was right.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 17, 2007 9:44 PM

Since I have referred to myself as an occasional hothead I must assume you are talking to me. Between the islamists/apologists/antagonists/netnannys and PC sellouts like you how does anyone get a word in edge wise? Here is a novel idea, read reread and reread again the CONSTITUTION of the United States of America paying particular attention to the BILL OF RIGHTS both documents it seems you would sell out for your version of the PC world just as they already have. That is what we are fighting for here not some utopian dream of yours. That is what the enemy wants to destroy and then they will take the world. You think this is some kind of PC game, that’s what got us where we are right now. And try posting w/o kindergarten insults maybe some will listen to you. Now go back to sleep before you get somebody killed.

Posted by: tgusa at April 17, 2007 9:51 PM

Robert,

Thank-you for your excellent reflection. Truly spot on.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 17, 2007 9:58 PM

Cheeky Human,

"We know many other details of what he did, but we know little or nothing of why.
= demon possession"

Sadly, it takes incidents like this mass killings to remind us that all these evils come from the ENEMY himself.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 17, 2007 10:02 PM

The Second Amendment allows Citizens to hunt and protect themselves. But it had a more important purpose-to allow the Citizenry to rise up and defeat an out-of-control government. People who argue to maintain ‘sporting’ weapons at the expense of handguns are off-base Constitutionally.

From Federalist 46; attributed to Madison:

To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed46.htm

Nothing to do with deer hunting. Police don’t like an armed Citizenry because they themselves are safer with the people unarmed. But they get paid to keep the people safe, not to keep themselves safe.

Posted by: pez at April 17, 2007 10:22 PM

Well, Ishmael Ax has a mother, father, brothers, sisters, relatives. Will we know anytime soon which religion they belong to? Did anybody ask the imam of the Virginia mosque (don't tell me there is none) if Ishamel has been seen there, (surely he would tell the truth, haha) but perhaps somebody else did.

We know nothing yet. Sure he was a madman. Definately he was a terrorist. But his motivation must have come from somewhere. And 'debauchery' and resentment of 'rich kidz' is a bit too flakey. I don't buy it.

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/17/ahmadiyya-muslims-confirm-eating-pork-makes-you-homosexual/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 17, 2007 10:24 PM

Allahfanculo,

When that English department head did her "poem", while she I did not mind she saying the term "hookies", I had to when she mentions the Aids baby, the baby elephant, the children and the rouge armies, ete., I had to shut off the Foxnews.com live feed. Too much PC for my interests. Instead, prayed a rosary instead for those affected. Not once she mentions the heros that came out of this horor.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 17, 2007 10:34 PM

Forget this notify students by e-mail crap. How about the old air raid siren that screams "take cover and defend yourselves"?
It'll work for terror attack, too!

Posted by: crusader rabbit at April 17, 2007 10:35 PM

I searched the Qur'an and the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari (complete collection), Sahih Muslim (complete collection), Sunan Abu-Dawud (partial collection) and Malik's Muwatta) at USC and found nothing saying Ibrahim used an axe, or that described the "sacrifice" (as-Saaffat 37:100-111).

Genesis 22: 9-11 (the real story): When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied.

I find the E.D.E.N. Southworth Ishmael explanation better for Cho being an English major.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 17, 2007 10:39 PM

Does anyone else think that someone else may have written "Ismail Ax" on his arm after he shot himself?

Posted by: champ at April 17, 2007 10:46 PM

Allah at Hot Air and others are speculating that the cops misinterpreted the writing, which might have been "Ismail YK." He is a turkish siger which you can watch at youtube.

Following this vein, I googled "Ismail AK."

It's a real name. He is a doctor who specializes in brain disorders.

Here's an excerpt of a paper he co-wrote.
----------------------------------------------
Clozapine With Amisulpride for Refractory Schizophrenia
MARCUS W. AGELINK, M.D., ILKER KAVUK, M.D. and ISMAIL AK, M.D.
Gelsenkirchen, Germany

To the Editor: Only sparse data exist regarding combination treatments of clozapine with other psychiatric medications or ECT (1). Here we report on seven patients who received combined application of clozapine and amisulpride. Amisulpride is not marketed in the United States. It acts primarily on dopaminergic D2 and D3 receptors of the limbic system. Because of its lower induction of extrapyramidal symptoms and its better efficacy against negative symptoms (compared to typical neuroleptics), it is grouped among the atypical neuroleptics.

**Seven patients (four men and three women) with a **paranoid-hallucinatory (N=3) or schizoaffective **psychosis (diagnosed according to DSM-III-R) **gave written informed consent to be treated with **clozapine combined with amisulpride.
------------------------------------------------
Didn't I hear somewhere that he was taking medication?....

/Pure speculation and mental masturbation.

Posted by: astuddis at April 17, 2007 10:51 PM

"Does anyone else think that someone else may have written "Ismail Ax" on his arm after he shot himself?"

Besides Abdullah?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 17, 2007 10:57 PM

ENOUGH ALREADY!

If one in ten had been 'carrying' the death toll would have been less--we can't know how many less but, be assured, it would've been less than 32 innocents.

Jewdog wrote: "Here is why I favor gun control. This attacker was not a criminal, and although he was eccentric, he lived within the apparent bounds of normality. He was rational enough to go to school, to obtain a gun and to execute people in a methodical way with it.
The fact is, a firearm in the hands of an apparently normal, law-abiding person can be used as lethal weapon should that person decide to use it as such."

Most people fall into a realm that we may call 'normality'. If 'many' of those choose to carry a weapon, then those few who 'appear' to fall into that realm will either be prevented or quickly stopped from wreaking this kind of havoc.
___________________________________________

Having been married to a Korean woman who emigrated to the US at an early age (and having some experience with emigres of Korean and other cultures) I want to report some personal experiences.

My ex-((Korean)-wife came to the US before she was 3 yrs old. But she is burdened with being a bridge--an interface--between her Korean mother and American society. It is a challenge of alliegiances (I lost).

True 2nd generation kids have little to no trouble in assimilation But the children of language-challenged 1st gen immigrants often do--as I witnessed with the father of my 1st wife (of Italian descent).

These are often young people with an identity crisis--are they American or something else?

Cho was, no doubt, troubled on many levels There was a reason he commited what he did--we may never know--and that brings us no peace or closure. Damn him if you must; It's hard to feel Christian Charity for such as he. But we must try.

Posted by: turn at April 17, 2007 11:10 PM

The person who writes a horror movie is not necessarily unbalanced.

Amen to that. Stephen King is functioning quite normally, I think.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 11:12 PM

Not to mention he was a real mental case! That is the kind hezboallah likes to recruit.

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 11:21 PM

Pelayo said:

". . . here are some simple things that can be done to prevent a massacre on a college campus. Metal detectors, a comprehensive emergency plan, free self defense classes, better training for campus police and security just to name a few. That's about all that can be done to minimize damage.

This is ridiculous, a college campus, especially one the size of VPI. It is not like a high school with two or four buildings. You want a metal detector in each of approximately three hundred or four hundred doors? Some large universities have buildings that are outside of what would be considered the "campus." Some campuses are divided by major streets and highways. This is an impossible task unless one is willing to spend money and create a campus like Bob Jones University was in the 1970s, it may still be surrounded by a fence topped by barbed wire. Is that what you want?"

But that is only half the story. In any civilised society an academic campus should be totally immune from such attacks. It doesn't matter whether the attack is born out of excessive religiosity or just plain paranoid schizophrenia or even just criminal intent, academic campuses are off limits - period. Our best and brightest live and work in such places. Any attack on them is an attack on us. The best we can hope for is that this attack has nothing to do with the nightmare that is Islam and turns out instead to be simply one emotionally deranged individual killing people because of some insane personal reason. Let us hope that is as simple as that then we can pray for the dead and the injured and the poor deluded killer - and his family as well who must be feeling really bad right now.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 17, 2007 11:22 PM

Stephen, You have been weird lately!

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 11:24 PM

bigcatgirl13106,

"prayed a rosary instead for those affected."

Quite right. So did I, so should all of us.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 17, 2007 11:28 PM

This is ridiculous, no one, no one, no sane person at least, has ever blamed the proliferation of automobiles as a contributor to increased vehicular homicides. The next time someone willfully runs their vehicle into a crowded bus stop, I want someone to start lobbying for background checks for a driver's license.

To all of you who criticize the US gun laws:

This is one of the most selfish attitudes I can think of. You are willing to let some young police officer earning a salary half of what you make stiting on your over-stuffed posterior in an airconditioned office risk his or her life to save you hide. Buy a shotgun and shut up.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 11:30 PM

Since I now must assume you are seeking my personal attention tgusa, I will indulge.

tgusa wrote:
"Since I have referred to myself as an occasional hothead I must assume you are talking to me."

Now now tgusa, that was quite presumptive on your part. I will also be presumptive and assume your post was directed as a rebuttal to mine, even in the absence of you explicitly stating so. Consistent with my original post in this thread, I referred to the term "hot-headed" in quotations, as if professed by another, which I also clearly pointed out in my original post.

The frighteningly obvious tone of my post was directed as JFGR, and I also explicitly stated so. Quite frankly, I was actually unaware that you posted in this thread. I will do my best to pay more attention. That being said, your suggestion that I am a "PC sellout", might be the most ridiculous and unfounded criticism I have ever received from anyone in my entire life, nuclear family included. I apologized for not knowing that you posted on this particular thread, but what is more revealing, is that it is obvious that you must not have read anything that I have posted in the last year or so, before tonight.

I have read the "CONSTITUTION" and the "BILL OF RIGHTS", and I can assure you, the freedoms you think you enjoy here because of those documents, will not buy you another second of posting "privilages" here, quoting myself, because posting here is a privilage, not a right.

Besides your fallacy of blatantly internalizing my comments about another community poster, is also your fallacy of completely missing the entire point of my post. JFGR's post was irresponsible and simply incorrect. I am awaiting a correction to what I posted.

tgusa wrote:
"And try posting w/o kindergarten insults maybe some will listen to you. Now go back to sleep before you get somebody killed."

Now now, tgusa, I challenge you to list a single example of a "kindergarten insult" that I wrote. The gauntlet has been thrown down at your feet. Statements like "go back to sleep", is an obvious insult to me, antonymically derived from the irrelevent moniker that I use here. That would be my example of a "kindergarten insult", as professed by you. What is your best example of mine?

Posted by: awake at April 17, 2007 11:31 PM

I do feel really bad for the families and students everyone! This could be a good case of multiculturalism! Sometimes I wonder what country I am in. I am in a store and everyone was a different origin. They have not mentioned anything about his arm on tv so will we get the truth again? They are already crying discrimination (then)!!!! Some strange stuff coming out of this story about this kid!

Posted by: MZ at April 17, 2007 11:34 PM

Robert

Yes there are things that could and should have been done. What do you think about this:

There has not been one question yet from the press or government about why a gun was sold to a foreign national. Begging the question of how to perform a background check on a foreign national, what part of the US Constitution gives an individual with a US tourist or student visa the right to own/bear arms within the US?
Which agency in China or Korea gave the pertinent background information on this individual? If a foreign national is allowed to own a firearm, wouldn't you think that the background check should include their country of origin and why wouldn't you then believe that more time would be required to check and verify the individual's past? If this individual were to request a gun in China or Korea, would he be allowed as a citizen???

It is very clear that we should oppose any concession to changes in the Constitution or Federal law which provides US Constitutional Right or Privilege to foreign nationals whether they are classified as enemy combatants or not.

Posted by: raja at April 17, 2007 11:40 PM

Raja, a person with permanent residency status can join the military. A permanent resident is subject to being drafted into the military. A permanent resident is one small step away from being a citizen. If we can force a permanent resident into the military, we can at least allow them the means to protect themselves as civilians.

Cho Seung-Hui has lived here since 1992; he was 23 years old when he put that gun to his head. I'll let you figure how old he was when he moved here if you can add and subtract. Yeah, he bought a gun, which he was legally entitled to do. Sometimes people buy guns who should not have guns, and sometimes people drive cars who should not drive cars. Sometimes people vote who should not be allowed to vote.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 17, 2007 11:54 PM

Look folks, the one thing that we don't know at the moment is whether or not this slaughter was motivated by the Islamic belief system or not. Not all such incidents are necessarily Islamic in origin. In our society today there are obviously a significant number of people who use the weapons we allow to them in all sorts of ways that do not necessarily have any religious bearing. Sometimes people simply go crazy. Sh*t happens.

Pelayo has a point. Guns don't kill people - people using guns kill people. Crime is personal; people commit crimes, not the inanimate machines they use. We all live in a society that is deeply threatened by terrorism. Terrorism is a crime but not all crime is terrorism. Sometimes the appearances can lead us to leap to judgement. I'll bet that this appalling incident turns out to be a pretty ordinary crime of passion and emotion unconnected to terrorism and on a par with other such shootings.

Perhaps strict and tight gun control on the European model for example would minimise such incidents - who knows - but that isn't going to happen so we just have to learn to live with a certain level of such crimes like this as the price we pay for the right to bear arms. Is it a price worth paying? that's up to you to decide.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 17, 2007 11:55 PM

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Ben Franklin 1759
Definitely one of our best and brightest.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 12:04 AM

The more I hear this guy was a real sczizhoid! I like the idea of a different siren for something like this.

Posted by: MZ at April 18, 2007 12:14 AM

The convocation held today was very strange for many reasons, but the oddest aspect was its timing. The dead students aren't even buried yet and the investigation is just beginning. I've never seen a memorial service, if that's what it was meant to be, planned and dispatched in such haste following a catastrophic event.

The assembled students did not appear to be grieving or particularly traumatized; many were chewing gum, talking on cell phones, or cuddling up with their boyfriends/girlfriends and by all appearances, were there in body only to fill an empty seat. The bored expressions were too obvious to ignore. The students' reaction to the "bloodiest campus attack in American history"
seemed extremely restrained and detached to me.

Something just doesn't feel right about this, from yesterday's carefully planned killing spree to the assembly held today, just twenty-four hours after the fact. I didn't see the speaker but I believe it was the president of Virginia Tech who made a reference to religions, and he named islam first, as if were the predominant religion in Virginia and the US. Christianity was mentioned last. The university made sure a muslim imam was on hand to spew islamic invective but Christianity had no representative, unless you want to count George Bush. I don't know if a rabbi spoke, I didn't see one. I guess they couldn't find a minister on such short notice, or maybe the Wahabbis own Virginia Tech too.

I couldn't stomach the entire fiasco, which sounded like a left-wing variety show. The "compassionate and caring" liberals seized this opportunity to focus on all of their most passionate projects and causes instead of the massacre that had just occurred. And unless it was mentioned after I turned it off, nobody said a word about the Jewish professor and Holocaust survivor who died trying to protect his students.

We'll see what's in the news about it tomorrow and the next day. I'm curious to see how deep the media will dig or if they have already developed and written the scripts to be fed to the American public. Something about the aftermath of this horrible tragedy freaks me out, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Posted by: Susanp at April 18, 2007 12:18 AM

tgusa,

Not as simple as that. Who's essential liberty? The victim's? The perpetrator's?

One man's liberty can be another man's oppression.

Cho Seung-Hui exercised his liberty to own and bear arms but deprived others of their right to life - their liberty of living and having a life - when he chose to exercise his right to use his arms for his own good reasons.

The world has moved on since 1759 - and become a vastly more complicated case than dear old Ben Franklin could possobly have imagined from his standpoint in his simple eighteenth century society. Ben has and had a point but is it relevant today?

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 12:20 AM

hmmm... I guess I coulda figured this.

Posted by: Karen at April 18, 2007 12:35 AM

Karen linked to http://www.aaja.org/news/aajanews/2007_04_16_01/ that said "AAJA urges all media to avoid using racial identifiers unless there is a compelling or germane reason. There is no evidence at this early point that the race or ethnicity of the suspected gunman has anything to do with the incident"

Yes, and they are right. We simply don't know at the moment, do we? Let's not leap to conclusions here.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 12:42 AM

Concerned Citizen,

You searched the hadiths: try the Muslim tafsirs & histories: Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Thalabi, and Kisai.

Posted by: remote_control at April 18, 2007 12:42 AM

Yes I think that it is and I think the events unfolding in Europe make that perfectly clear. Another holocaust is coming and this time it won’t just be Jews and Gypsies that are exterminated. A college campus protects nothing it cannot even protect its self. It relies on rough men ready to go in harms way to even survive. The islamists , where ever they go burn schools they light teachers and administrators on fire they behead small girls for the crime of wanting to learn. Considering European history I am not ready to gamble known truths for possibilities. Sacrifice your liberty if you choose but if it doesn’t work out the way you hope you will only have yourself to blame.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 12:44 AM

Let's not leap to conclusions here.
Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke

Conclusions? What conclusions? We all know how CAIR tries to manipulate the media. Didn't quite expect the Asian American Journalists Association (AAJA) to follow suit.

There is an attempt to deprive Americans from legitimate news here, based on erroneous preconceptions. What would you have said if the killer had been Muslim and CAIR said the same thing?

But thank you for trying to speak for me.

Posted by: Karen at April 18, 2007 1:04 AM

One last item. America is the oldest uninterrupted system of government in the world today, not GB, China, Russia, India or any other. And that is no coincidence; the framers of the Constitution were very thorough in the checks and balances they installed. All the checks and balances work together and therefore we are still going. However, start picking them apart and eventually the whole thing comes crashing down on our heads. They were a group of very smart men, I doubt we could get such a group together today. Knowledge is not the same as intelligence, and while we have more knowledge today there is not so much intelligence.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 1:08 AM

The reason the AAJA did not want this information released was because they thought it would reflect porrly on Asian Americans. A Journalist group for Muslims would undoubtedly have done the same thing, in CAIR-like fashion.

This is not good for truth in journalism. You may disagree, but that is whay I think.

Posted by: Karen at April 18, 2007 1:09 AM

SusanP; I was having a conversation with my wife when the Imam began speaking at the convocation. I didn’t mean to tune her out, but she caught it. My two words were ‘Good God’.

The lesson Ahmedinejad learned was that if you send in an operative with a 9mm you get:

1. Dozens of promising Americans dead.
2. An Imam sharing the national stage with the President of the United States.
3. Crying students.
4. Scared parents.

It is called Asymmetrical Warfare.

Posted by: pez at April 18, 2007 1:12 AM

The gunman has no ties whatever with Islam. That will become known shortly.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 1:20 AM

Personally, I don't think there's a problem about making speculations (was the perp following out an Islamic jihadist agenda or was he not?) asking such questions, making speculations -- was he, wasn't he? -- This is Not the problem. Asking questions is perfectly normal.

The problem is when a person acts as if it's an open and shut case -- "Yeah, it's beyond a doubt a Muslim perp" or "Yeah, it's the American culture of violence." And these conclusions are made/drawn not due to any evidence at hand, but rather because someone has an axe to grind.

Furthermore, I am more than willing to give blogs a degree of lee-way (I mean, so what? who really cares?) I have far less patience, however, for mainstream media which invariably engages in casting judgements (typically against "American society") and it's sans/without evidence.

Thus, Lou Dobbs -- before knowing it was a Korean psychotic who was the perp-- "We'll be talking with a panel of experts about what is driving in our culture and our society some people to take such deadly action. And what is next for all of us affected by this tragedy." Later, Dobbs: "Professor, I know that as Professor Sheras said in particular, it's very difficult to try to figure out in general what is happening here.

But there are certain impulses in this society and culture that has -- that must be driving this. We've had just about 200 murders on our campuses, our all sorts of public schools in this country, over the last 80 years. But they're accelerating. Is there something happening in our culture, our society that you think could be driving it?" Professor Nation, do you -- do you believe there is any specific identifiable cultural or social impulse that is driving this kind of violence?

NATION: Well, I think there are a variety of factors, and we, as a culture, know many of them. Certainly the level of violence that our children observe, the access to guns. I mean it's true that, to some degree, that there's always been issues of aggression among school-age children. But when you mix that with also the access to guns. And there's certainly the increased likelihood that you're going to have deadly violence, as we've seen in the last few years.

DOBBS: Professor Arum, the idea that this culture is creating -- is creating the forces, or is at least playing a major role in driving these people to violence, where does it begin? And what, if anything, can be done about it?"

Etc., Etc.

Imagine that "this culture" was not a reference to American culture, but a reference to islamic culture...as I laugh...one can hear the screams from CAIR as I write (but, of course, we all know that no MSM would dare make such allegations about any culture other than American). In other words, it's perfectly acceptable to mount an attack against American culture (without knowing anything about the actual perp's background), make blanket accusations -- "it's the American gun culture" -- "it's the Americans love of violence" -- no problem! But even a mere speculation in the order of -- "Could it possibly be related to Islamic terrorism??" Now that's Taboo! and worthy of instantaneous censure! Anyway, if there are to be any "apologies" or "retractions" it should begin with the MSM -- not R.S.

Posted by: J.S. at April 18, 2007 1:23 AM

Is there a rule that local cops have to stand around listening to gunfire while they wait for the State SWAT team to assemble on the scene?

Posted by: Bingo at April 18, 2007 1:34 AM

The biggest change in America over the last 30 years is primarily immigration based. Hmmm, do they want to discuss that? I doubt it. When we allow some immigrants who can’t seem to handle freedom into the country I don’t think it is a surprise that we are seeing friction develop and some committing horrendous crimes. Some will say what about this guy or that guy they went on killing sprees, yes and most if not all have been found to be all narced up, by drug dealers, I mean doctors.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 1:40 AM

In this story, there is this reference to Cho's religion:

A law enforcement official who read Cho's note described it Tuesday as a typed, eight-page rant against rich kids and religion. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. [...] Cho indicated in his letter that the end was near and that there was a deed to be done, the official said. He also expressed disappointment in his own religion, and made several references to Christianity, the official said.

So, is his "own religion" Christianity, or something else? Waiting...

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 1:44 AM

Why would someone intent on killing himself take the trouble to file the serial numbers off the weapons?

Posted by: dms at April 18, 2007 1:47 AM

tgusa,

A great short speech but a long way short of reality. Like most non-Europeans you simply don't get it. What our governments say and what we do are two entirely different things. I think that you really don't understand the extent to which most of us simply don't co-operate with the so-called powers that be - and probably never have.

One of the great problems for any government of a European State is the extent to which its citizens lie. When asked about what we want, what we think, what we believe, the default position is one of untruth. No Brit, no Frenchie, no Spic or Eytie would ever dream of telling the truth to a Government enquiry or a pollster. We simply don't do that. Governing a European country is an artform because none of us, not one single person, ever tells the truth to government.

Just one example should suffice: it's reckoned that tax avoidance in Europe amounts to some forty percent of the potential total government take on income from all sources because most people lie about their income and its sources. Interesting n'est pas? However, in the USA it's calculated that tax avoidance amounts to just 4.3% of the total potential government take because most people in the USA reply honestly on their Tax Forms. No European would dream of being that honest or of telling our government(s) that much about us.

Europe might fall to the Islamics - that I grant you. But it will not fall by being subservient to its government machineries as you are. It will fall to the Islamics because its citizens cannot, and will not, co-ordinate their actions against their common enemy. It will fall because Europeans don't trust government, don't trust direction and because individual Euuropeans will not accept in their arrogance and hubris that Europe is in any way under threat.

Most Europeans believe, quite rightly, that we are the very centre of the civilised world and because that has been true for so long we are now at a point where most Europeans cannot believe that it can ever change. Our arrogance is not about military power, not about our tackling of the climate problems facing us, not about the wellbeing of our shared financial systems - for none of that now matters for most Europeans (they are problems solved or in the process of being solved) - what most Europeans think today is about some sort of shared equity, about how to make the world a better place for each individual human being.

And in that lies our weakness. Laudable though such a concern might be it ignores totally the inequitable belief systems such as Islam (or equates them with belief systems that we already know and have integrated into our societies already) - belief systems that denigrate the ideas of wealth advancement for all, of political freedoms separate from religious beliefs, of freedom of religion, of pluralistic government, of democracy and the enlightenment.

To put it simply: Europe has lied, cheated and falsified so much for so long that it can no longer make a coherent approach to its biggest threat. Europe today can only see in Islam a kindred spirit - dishonesty, duplicity and lies as an artform, without seeing the real difference between Islam and Europe - Sharia.

Until Europe and all the countries of Europe can see this we will be fighting a war that cannot be won - but given the resilience of the European peoples cannot be lost either.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 1:50 AM

And if he had a spur-of-the-moment domestic dispute, why did he have several lengths of chain and locks laying around, that he just happened to be able to lock the doors with?

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 1:51 AM

I repeat, the gunman has no ties whatever with Islam. I have a trusted source on that. As to what hi religion is, if any at all, is still unknown.

"Is there a rule that local cops have to stand around listening to gunfire while they wait for the State SWAT team to assemble on the scene?"
Posted by: Bingo

The campus "police" found on college campuses are not trained police officers. They are hardly even comparable to experienced police officers. What they actually are is armed security guards.

They are in no wise trained to handle events like this. It took them by surprise, clearly. After this event though, colleges may want to ensure their campus police forces get much more training to be able to cope with situations like these.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 1:52 AM

They know his religion, and they're not coming out and saying what it is. I wonder...

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 1:55 AM

And if he had a spur-of-the-moment domestic dispute, why did he have several lengths of chain and locks laying around, that he just happened to be able to lock the doors with?
Posted by: special_guest

Well, he could have originally purchased the guns with the intention of commiting other crimes. Did he himself buy the guns or were they sold to him by someone who filed them off?

I think I heard that he bought the guns himself. Clearly, he would have no reason to file the numbers off if he knew he was going to kill himself.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 1:57 AM

I thought the campus police weren't allowed to carry guns.

Posted by: dms at April 18, 2007 1:57 AM

Here’s to hoping the families hold their own memorial service. As in most as they do take time to organize (unless you are a PCMC type) I expect it to be sometime this weekend or early next week. You know after they have had some time to get the dead to an undertaker.

Jonathan Ralbrooke,
I really do wish you luck but I wont hold my breath. And climate change, you won’t be needing to worry about that as many of you wont be around to enjoy the sun.
"Everything we thought we knew about X-ray images of the Sun is now out of date," says Leon Golub from the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA. "We've seen many new and unexpected things. For that reason alone, the mission is already a success."
http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11432&feedId=online-news_rss20

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 1:59 AM

They know his religion, and they're not coming out and saying what it is. I wonder...
Posted by: special_guest

hahaha THANKS for the laugh!! If it was even HINTED that he was a Christian I would have thought that would have been PAGE ONE material. Given the incessant Christian bashing in this country and even here at times.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 2:00 AM

tgusa,

You said: "America is the oldest uninterrupted system of government in the world"

No. Not true. There is no need for lies. The USA has a much respected system of government and quite rightly so but it is not the oldest uninterrepted system. That's just silly and does no credit to this blog.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 2:02 AM

I thought the campus police weren't allowed to carry guns.
Posted by: dms

No. They can and do carry guns. They have the authority to handle ALL incidents initially, much like MPs do on a military base. They can immediately call in the local police or not, at their own discretion. But they are fully authorized to carry guns.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 2:03 AM

tgusa,

Interesting 'non sequitur' about the sun.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 2:05 AM

Name one.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 2:10 AM

Charley said

Did he himself buy the guns or were they sold to him by someone who filed them off?

He bought the guns himself. The media has had several interviews with the gunshop owner who sold them to him.

As to what hi religion is, if any at all, is still unknown.

So, obviously your trusted source is not privy to the contents of the letter, because an officer who did read it told us that Cho talked about "his own religion". See my quote above. They have the letter, they know his religion. It's no big deal, it's an irrelevant fact, unconnected to a simple domestic dispute, so just tell us what it is. "He's a Baptist." Or, "He's a Buddhist." Or, "He's a Zoroaster." It's simple. Just tell us. We can handle it.

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 2:10 AM

tgusa,

England, since 1066.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 2:15 AM

I have never seen your name here before and in 5 minutes you are blustering about Euro supremacism and calling me a liar. Is this the type of thing we can expect from you in the future?

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 2:15 AM

Charley said

If it was even HINTED that he was a Christian I would have thought that would have been PAGE ONE material.

Exactly. Since it's not on PAGE ONE that he's a Christian, .... any thoughts?

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 2:15 AM

Wrong again remember your used to be king?

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 2:16 AM

tgusa,

The Holy See, since the year dot!

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 2:16 AM

tgusa,

Just Google it, for Heavens sake. King Harold was defeated at the battle of Hastings in 1066 and all the government of England has been uninterrupted since then starting with King William known as the Conqueror. Every scoolkid knows that!

Grow up.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 2:20 AM

Sorry, Schoolkid.

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at April 18, 2007 2:21 AM

"So, obviously your trusted source is not privy to the contents of the letter...."

Well, I would imagine that he/she was privy to "the letter" and, I would imagine much more as well. I never asked about that or most of th other things being reported by the MSM. My main request from my source was whether or not he was of the Muslim frame of mind. If you get my drift.

"Exactly. Since it's not on PAGE ONE that he's a Christian, .... any thoughts?"

Not sure I follow you on that one. But I will say it again, he was not a Muslim. If that helps.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 2:22 AM

What annoyed me about some of the comments on the earlier thread was gloating that he was not a Muslim and saying the people her were hate mongerers. Also the fact that people were not allowed to speculate over his motives.

Also the poster Stefen seemed to say that because he was a South Korean he could not be a Muslim, which was a bit premature as the Muslims have set up colonies in most countries of the world and are busy converting.

Obviously the next stage of this massacre is a full all out assault on the 2nd Amendment and that worries me. I guess I was hoping that it was a Muslim attack and not a lone nutter as that would have perhaps strengthened the 2nd amendment at this point. It is this aspect that affects the war against the Jihadists as it will make Americans as easy to kill as Europeans...

Posted by: Daffersd at April 18, 2007 2:25 AM

As stated before...

This was not the work of a suddenly distraught lover, or a depressant, or any of that hokum.
This was cold, calculated, meant to do far more than just kill some woman who scorned him.
Chaining the doors shut from the INside further reinforces that point.
His rhetoric echoes eeriely similar talking points to those uttered by militant university professors (the usual targets of kook fringe hatred), and only one reason anyone would have "islam ax" on his body...
No, it doesn't mean he was active, but it strongly reinforces the probability he was, at the very least, sympathetic to said cause (it would be reasonable to surmise that, if he did adopt it, it was recently, and not directly affiliated to any terrorist group- that would be a stretch).
He saw easy targets as they weren't allowed to defend themselves properly, and the result we see now.

The armed citizenry who should've been allowed as per Constitutional right (despite the fact it's been thwarted at every turn by any means possible) would probably not have stopped all the deaths, but it would certainly have prevented the numbers of murdered kids that resulted in keeping disarmed Americans from defending themselves...but this ends up becoming another issue altogether and not directly in the scope of this site, save that of the insanity of not being allowed to defend ourselves for whatever absurd reason.

The murderer was an example of evil-it's aquired, we're not born with it, and obviously he didn't get this from his parents (based on the reports), but an outside source...sad to say, we cannot ban evil (which is the issue we're dancing around), and the rainbow-chocolate-covered teddy-bear worlders who think the fictional fantasy city of "san angeles" out of the Demolition Man movie is somehow possible if we all joins hands, make nice, sing kumbaya & dance around the almighty phallus of gaia are only impeding the reality of this evil , by making defenseless people even MORE so, so the next best thing is to prevent it whenever and wherever it may crop up by adopting the slogan that works every time, no matter who chooses to deny that inescapable fact or not:

Fight Crime-Shoot Back
It's the only thing criminals, and terrorists, understand.

Posted by: jcom972 at April 18, 2007 2:29 AM

My ancestors came here after being participants in the battle of the Boyne, before that and so far, I have traced them back as far as the battle of Agincourt. Your people ever do any fighting or did you find a way to avoid that too? But never mind what I have to say I’m no Euro. Ok you went from a absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy when?

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 2:32 AM

"I guess I was hoping that it was a Muslim attack and not a lone nutter as that would have perhaps strengthened the 2nd amendment at this point. It is this aspect that affects the war against the Jihadists as it will make Americans as easy to kill as Europeans..."
Posted by: Daffersd

No, you have evry right to think that way. Any sane person should think that way. Why do I say that? Because, truthfully speaking, this type of massacre is EXACTLY what we can expect from jihadists. It fits their playbook so well.

The people who frequent this site know that all too well. Of course, various Islamic apologists will wnat to nail you to the wall for saying such a thing.

The problem is, if we shoot and miss, the jihadis make the most of it. Media-wise, i.e., "see, there they go again blaming Muslims. Racists!" And so on.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 2:33 AM

Daffersd
I don't forsee the 2nd amendment being done away with but even if it were, I'm sure there would be lots of usually law abiding citizens who would keep and bear arms illegally just like the bad guys.

Posted by: dms at April 18, 2007 2:33 AM

It's hay-time. Sweet dreams my little muffins.

Posted by: Charley at April 18, 2007 2:41 AM

charley:
Campus cops are REAL sworn police officers with the same training as city cops. They have the power to arrest and to draw their weapons. They shouldn't be compared to armed security guards. And they shouldn't squat behind their Crown Vics with shooting coming from a bldg. Check out that cell phone video from the Arab exchange student.

Posted by: Bingo at April 18, 2007 2:45 AM

Charley, totally agree.

DMS, maybe water it down further. I am trying to work out how I can legally own guns in France.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 18, 2007 4:23 AM

I had watched the special convocation and I was suprised that this special name did not come up even once : Jesus Christ.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 18, 2007 4:56 AM

Hi Daffersd,

In answer to your question about owning guns in France. Its not difficult. There are two ways around this.

Firstly by getting a hunting licence. You can find information about this here
http://www.chasseurdefrance.com/reglementation/frame.php?page=1

Within a few months you will have a permit to own a shotgun, which is probably the best self defence weapon you can own.

Plus you can always go hunting.

Another way is to join a shooting club. Within a year or so you will have a permit to own a revolver or semi automatic pistol. And you get to train on its use.

Find a club near your home here http://www.fftir.org/ and see what the conditions are for joining.

Finally, legally you can buy a black powder revolver. This is very noisy and a lot of fun. I'm not sure of its use as self defence but seeing as the Wild West was won with this kind of weaponry, I'm sure that it better not to be at the wrong end of this gun.

Good luck

Sebastien

Posted by: Sebastien at April 18, 2007 5:33 AM

If one lone killer can wreck this kind of havoc on a university campus -- resulting in the slaughter of 32 innocent people, one can easily surmise the carnage that could be wrecked by five or six well placed Islamic terrorists, operating with a well organized and executed plan.

We can be certain that Islamic terrorist are paying close attention to what has happened at Virginia tech -- especialy the massive media coverage given to the tragedy.

This is exactly the kind of publicity Al Qaeda loves, and I don't doubt are thinking seriously of ways to cash in on the free media coverage that would result with the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent students and faculty.

I seriously believe that our government and university officials should consider forming well organized and well armed student and faculity militias.

A well organized militia that has been properly trained to react quickly to a terrost attack, and consisting of student and faculty volunteers who have been thoroughly screened psylogically and emotionally, could result in saving the lives of hundreds of potential victims.

I am well aware of the violent objection to such a plan by the politically correct administrators of most of our major universities. They would prefer taking chances with the lives of others, rather than facing the reality of the world as it is.

Their alternative solution, no doubt, would be to increase diversity on campus by importing more students from the Muslim world, and drilling students and faculty with sensitivity classes on the peaceful nature of Islam.

We can't rely on academics to protect our children in the event of a large-scale terrorist attack on our University campuses. They are too paralyzed by ideology to do what is really necessay to protect against such an attack.

State and local governments should be calling the shots in providing security at public institutions of learning.

Militias are our best bet, and a clear warning to potential terrorist organizations that it'll be rough going should they try anything at our Universities.

Posted by: rational at April 18, 2007 5:41 AM

Sebastian,

Thanks a lot, your an absolute star. These links help a huge deal. Add that to the stock of metal, cement, food etc., and I will be pretty secure if the wheels fall off in France.

I used to go pistol shooting in London, so the gun club sounds interesting. I might even take the kids to learn.

All the best

D

Posted by: Daffersd at April 18, 2007 5:46 AM

My pleasure Daffersd,

I have yet another link for you should you get your hunting licence

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=825282&sid=aa80b5dd3e730bfa131c37a56c9d3356

The video in the top post shows the Baikal MP 153 in action. This is one of the cheapest shotguns on the market and seems loved by everyone who owns one.

I suggest that you do your hunting licence as quickly possibe because every year they add more hurdles in the exam.

Finally I point you to http://www.tecmagex.com/2002/fr/shopping/guns/index.htm.

I apologze to all for this extremely off topic message. This will by my last post on the subject.

Sebastien

Posted by: Sebastien at April 18, 2007 5:54 AM

Something about the aftermath of this horrible tragedy freaks me out, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
posted by susan p

Keep trying to put your finger on it. I assure you there is something that doesn't smell right and anyone who is listening carefully is aware of that.
It strikes me that people who are disenchanted with their life would be tempting "recruits".
I have heard small children today justify their 'bad' behavior by recounting all the evil violence that is committed every day by people who are using the "Jihad" as a justification.
This is the real effect of Jihad on our daily lives.
One of the reasons the service today happened so quickly and involved the President is that the young people who attend that college are the sons and daughters of many of Washington's elite.
This hit home in DC.

Posted by: auntbea at April 18, 2007 5:58 AM

"there are jihadists who would like to carry out this kind of attack, and may do so someday."

....one day they will.....

and more importantly:

"If one lone killer can wreck this kind of havoc on a university campus -- resulting in the slaughter of 32 innocent people, one can easily surmise the carnage that could be wrecked by five or six well placed Islamic terrorists, operating with a well organized and executed plan."
Posted by: rational

.....it is a known fact that Muslims terrorist cells in the US have been scouting "soft targets" which include schools and school buses, picture a school bus with 50 toddlers going up in a Muslim blaze of glory....it is exactly the type of terror the Muslims adore...and they are indeed planned to such things....

.....by the way, Gun Control Laws do not work....where ever Gun Control Laws have been enacted, there has been no change in armed robbery, murder, or assaults with weapons....if fact, in many cases the crime rate actually increases...simply put...when the guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have the guns...a simplistic statement, but an accurate one....

....people who kill will do so regardless of what laws are on the books....Timothy Mcveigh blew up a large building with diesel fuel and fertilizer....and just where can one buy fertilizer and diesel fuel?......Jim Jones killed over 900 people with a poison laced koolaid.....terrorists in Japan killed many with sarin (and terrorists certainly have this and other chemical and biological weapons...and they certainly have used them)....US forces in Iraq have found many artillery shells armed with chemical and biological agents)....note: you do not need an artillery cannon to detonate the artillery shells...many of the roadside bombs are just artillery shells with a bit of explosive attached to ignite it....(an artillery shell with chemical and biological agents could be buried in a special location and when the proper time comes...i.e. a large gathering of people ...ignited and "presto" ...massive death count...more to the chemical and biological agents than the explosive....)....
....In Africa, many attacks killing hundreds or even thousands of people have been achieved with just bladed weapons such as the machete, sword, and spear....(see Hutus and Tutsis for example)....

......if you ban guns because they can be used by people to kill people...you would have to ban many other things, even cars, hammers, screwdrivers, kitchen knives, tire irons, rope, or even automobile anti-freeze.....

.....a well armed society is far safer than an unarmed one...terrorists love unarmed people...the terrorists always attack them first...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 18, 2007 6:42 AM

Assalamau laikum all,

I think it is possible that the police may have written Ishmail Ax on his arm to divert attention to their failings. They had singularly failed to come out this in having done anything to minimize the casualities, so what better way to "confuse things" in the mix.

They also failed to say which arm...and whether he was right/left handed ..or whether they found that pen..and matched finger prints to the pen.

As to his reasons for acting the do-lally...I think he may have been frustrated at the lack of korean speakers on campus...you can only take so much of English...he was missing home.

You see, English with only 26 letters is highly inadequate to write for example some of pronounications of the Urdu or Arabic dialect. The Amerike probably limits himself to about half-2/3 of these anyway.

It must have been a similar situation in Korean...he simply could not express his feelings/frustrations in English...his disgust of his parents to send him to the Amerike to "better" himself...when he KNEW...he knew that Korean was what he needed to express himself.
Did the Uni try to help him on that front?...not on your nelley....U must speak American English they must have told him.

Obviously we all have frustrations and this is a weak one to kill so many...but at least there are no links to Islam.

This man simply broke down due to a language barrier and expressed himself in another damming way.

Posted by: Naseem at April 18, 2007 8:04 AM

This man simply broke down due to a language barrier and expressed himself in another damming way.

Naseems that is no exuse that man immigrated to the US when he was 8years old, enough time you think to learn a language especially when you are young.

l will tell you one more lesson here, in the West, we cherish life, where over 30 people were gunned down, we all come toether to share that loss,or share that loss in other ways,but nevertheless, we as a culture morn that loss.
Now in contrast in muslim countries you seem to kill without any remores in the name of your moon god, and relish in this act. Naseem again chose life and join the human race, leave the death cult of islam.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at April 18, 2007 8:32 AM

Naseem - my suggestions for you:

Have sex with a woman.

Eat some bacon.

Relax.

There is no joy, no love, no fun in your "religion".

We're so over you - it's only a matter of time before the world turns on political Islam and you get your hairy behinds deservedly kicked (again)

So git along little piggie!

Love the hottest half Jew/half Catholic chick you'll never see...

aliyah44 xoxoxooxoxoxo

Posted by: aliyah44 at April 18, 2007 8:44 AM

LOL, "Naseem" wonders if the police wrote "Ismail ax" on the murderer's arm! LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!!!!

Keep grasping at straws you pathetic Muslim.

Posted by: darcy at April 18, 2007 8:51 AM

I hate to say it, however, in this case moron spam-o-wank - while being way off the mark usually - manages to drag himself out from under his sofa and hits a bulls eye.

"it's OK to say terrorism is a possibility, just don't rush to judgment. And I don't think you did. Is anybody going to get it about anti-depressants, or are we just going to let the drug companies make a fortune while the kids go nuts on that stuff. It's poison."

So you managed to hit the mark here

Ever laid your life on the line? Of course you haven't spam wank.

Now fuck off moron spamwank.

Go read "Satanic Verses" in the middle of Tehran

I dare you f*&*k *ed.

I DARE YOU

Posted by: ewha1 at April 18, 2007 8:54 AM

It's too much of a reach to tie this bozo to Islam and jihad. Even if he was a resent convert he obviously was not a good Muslim. If he were a good Muslim he would have taken credit for the slaying of Kaffir to assure his claim to paradise. This kids psychosis came from genetics, not from the teachings of Muhammad.
It was necessary to post on this story to provide a place for JW'rs to comment on the subject. As expected their turned out to be a lot of wishful thinking as to the motive of this massacre. Unfortunately, it also brought a lot of liberal lurkers out of the closet as well. The child like exchange I see on this subject diminishes the seriousness of the real threat we come here to study. Let's move on to the real Islam jihadist.

One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends.
Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”

Posted by: Abrog8 at April 18, 2007 9:05 AM

Sebastien, I have a Uberti reproduction 1858 Remington revolver, .44 inch caliber. It is 100% reliable, accurate, powerful, deadly, and loud. The muzzle flash is visible in bright sunshine. You can use a new black powder substitiute Pyrodex, it leaves much less residue.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 18, 2007 9:06 AM

If we had a rational immigration policy we would have controlled borders and a visa tracking system and would not be burdened with millions of illegal immigrants. We would also have a manageable number of legal immigrants instead of the million that enter each year. We would also return to the unfashionable idea that citizenship is a privilege and not a right for newcomers. If that were the case then our overburdened immigration bureacracy would be able to effectively monitor immigrants. If it was found that they were attending radical mosques, or associating with terrorists they could be disinvited. Similarly if they were in the habit of driving drunk, using drugs or consorting with criminals they could be sent back. Or if they were in the habit of stalking women and burning down dorm rooms they could be returned to their country of origin. If that were the case then both 911 and Virginia Tech would have been avoided.

Posted by: RBLA at April 18, 2007 9:26 AM

Assalamau Laikum Abrog8,

You foolishly say "The wombs of our women will give us victory".

The womens in the west mostly are wild and slutty, they prefer to show off their meats and worship one nite stands...NOT have childrens.

2 out of every 3 marriages in the West end up in divorce. Again this means few or no children...split homes mean that you will create some psycotics like this VT korean.

Many womens prefer to have a child late in life...limiting it to one.

Other couples do not want to expose their "potential" childrens to global warming...so they don't have any...they prefer to become "bigcatgirls" instead.

This lack of young labour means that you need to bring in muslims/wuslims to help run taxis, busses, corner shops, halal butchers, clothe shops and liqor shops..etc...etc.

Lack of childrens also means a smaller/mixed army.

Eating habits of your childrens mean that they prefer to kill on playstation while sitting down getting more obese.

Comparer this to muslim folks having many childrens everywhere.

You are dreaming...in 50 years you won't have sufficient childrens to raise an army... but muslims will....so we'll visit you instead. please leave some bread out.

Posted by: Naseem at April 18, 2007 9:28 AM

Hey Nausea,

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/16/update-we-will-conquer-your-country-with-the-bellies-of-our-women/

Damn boy, your a quick one. That is exactly my point.

Posted by: Abrog8 at April 18, 2007 9:35 AM

Jonathan Ralbrooke,

Even with the most strict gun control laws, if a crazy person is determined to attack people, they will fine the guns to do it, even if they are taken in thief. What needs to be done is enforce the anti-crime laws, including gun laws that we do have.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at April 18, 2007 9:43 AM

What of the now famous Al Barghouti?

Did he indeed lie about where he's from, if so why?

Who may he be related too?

Posted by: akak at April 18, 2007 10:43 AM

"This man simply broke down due to a language barrier and expressed himself in another damming way."

In an ISLAMIC way.

Naseem, you really should supplement your income by writing fairy tales, as you do here. You are probably not aware that in America there is a resurgence of young Catholic couples having lots of kids. At my church there are tons of people who have four, five, ten and even thirteen kids. You should have heard the baby who was chattering through Father's sermon this past Sunday. She was a cutie and well loved by her five brother's and sisters. Just think of what her I.Q. will be when her mother finishes homeschooling her and the others and how they will be able to combat Islam with two weapons that your people don't have, deductive reasoning and love.

You probably want to rent the movie, "The Two Towers" which is the second movie in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy to better understand the point I'm trying to get across to you. The people of Rohan, who for this point, would represent those of us who live in civilized countries and for the most part, respect human life, valued their culture and freedom and knew that if they didn't stand up and fight that they and any trace of their culture would be annihilated. Your people, who are represented by the Orks, don't believe in trying to get along or respecting the rights of individuals. The ummah (state)is everything and individuals be damned. You blindly and mindlessly murder on so that you can create some sort of Islamic utopia on earth. But let's be honest here, just like the people of Rohan who knew what they were fighting for and even though the odds were grim, they won because love and freedom are more powerful than hate and bondage.

You have no idea what your up against Naseem. but don't worry, the light will begin to come to you because everytime I see one of your posts it reminds me to pray for your conversion. And I do.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at April 18, 2007 10:47 AM

Yes, print the rambling suicide/murder/whatever note and all the speculation goes away.

Why hide anything? Perp is dead; No reason to hide anything. Lay it out for everyone to see.

Posted by: alexon at April 18, 2007 10:49 AM

Where there is trouble - trouble will follow!

Posted by: MZ at April 18, 2007 10:51 AM

Yes, print the rambling suicide/murder/whatever note and all the speculation goes away.

Why hide anything? Perp is dead; No reason to hide anything. Lay it out for everyone to see.

Posted by: alexon at April 18, 2007 10:49 AM

Additionally is the message board he posted on still up for viewing?

Posted by: akak at April 18, 2007 11:19 AM

"Yet cases of people going berserk and massacring scores of innocents seem to be far less frequent in Europe than America, with its libertarian attitude to the possession of firearms."

And what good was the political correctness of Europe to the people who died on London's mass transit last year? How did Britain's gun ban protect those commuters? How did British openness prevent the children of immigrants from killing their fellow citizens?

Remember this was the child of an immigrant. His parents assimilated. He did not. Had even one of those professors or students been armed, we might be talking about ten people dead instead of thirty two.

How was Theo van Gogh saved by European aversion to firearms (this from people who started two world wars in the span of less than thirty years)?

And how does the absence of firearms prevent anyone bent on mass murder from obtaining the means to do so? Guns were banned from airplanes decades ago. It never stopped people from trying to blow them up. It only assured terrorists that no one on board had the means to stop them.

There are many ways to kill people besides guns. Looking down on American values does nothing to solve the problem. There are bad individuals. They can't always be stopped. Pretending that they can be causes more harm than good.

Europeans and Australians (based on what appeared in the London Times) can feel as smug as they wish. Just remember your countrymen who were not saved by your self-righteous attitude. The next time a crisis arises (like Darfur) and someone asks "where are the Americans?", remember what you are asking Americans to bring with them: guns!

You can't have it both ways.

Posted by: PMK at April 18, 2007 11:43 AM

Charley,

"I repeat, the gunman has no ties whatever with Islam. I have a trusted source on that."

Your insistence on certainty this early in the investigation is suspicious. It takes more than one day to examine and analyze the contents of all his computer files and website trails; more than one day to go through all his personal effects and papers; more than one day to interview everyone who knew him and track down all the leads of his activities and associations over the past year. If your "trusted source" is this apodictically certain before a sufficient investigative process has been completed, then he is an incompetent fool at best, a participant in a proactive cover-up at worst.

Posted by: remote_control at April 18, 2007 11:44 AM

The subject of this story is the rampant speculation about Cho's motives:

On Tuesday, racially tinged speculation, based on the 23-year-old Cho's heritage and immigrant status, flew around the Internet, even though he spent two-thirds of his life in the United States.

Heritage? Just what might his heritage be? A Detroitite? Was he left-handed? Did he speak fluent Esperanto? Search this article for any comment on Islam, any refutation that his religious beliefs motivated him. A curious omission, since that is the "rampant speculation" I've seen.

The public is attempting to make sense of the tragedy by categorizing Cho and his motivations, said James Garbarino, a professor at Loyola University in Chicago, and author of "Lost Boys: Why Our Boys Turn Violent and How We Can Save Them." People have "an impulse to distance themselves" from the campus killer, Garbarino said. "The more someone is like one of us, the harder it is to sleep."

Actually, professor, we are attempting to discern a motive for the most violent school incident in U.S. history (though not worldwide, since the Islam-motivated Beslan incident killed over 100 in Russia). Authorities have the 8-page, typed note in which the killer explains his motivation. They have read it. They know what his motivation was. They have not told us.

They have told us that he complained about the corrupt morality of his fellow students; they have told us that he wrote about his religion (but haven't told us what that religion might be); they have told us that he wrote about Christianity (but haven't characterized what he wrote about Christianity).

What we have seen described so far, is a religiously motivated attack, and we don't yet know what that religion is. 48 hours after finding the note, the contents are still under tight wraps. We have his plays, his entire life's oeuvre, but not the note that describes his motivation.

Okay, we are suitably ashamed. We are racists, Islamophobes, xenophobes, southkoreaphobes, englishmajorphobes. We get your point. So, what was his motivation?

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 11:46 AM

Akak said

Additionally is the message board he posted on still up for viewing?

One of the early reports I read said that Cho's message board had been removed, and new message boards in memory of the victims had gone up in their place.

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 11:48 AM

I don't remember who put up the YouTube with the evil koran being shoot to death. BUt O laughed so hard.

Thanks.

Here's another one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dbODywI1t-I

Posted by: allat at April 18, 2007 11:53 AM

OOps, sorry - I was so eager to put it up.

Here it is:

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=Shooting+the+Koran

Posted by: allat at April 18, 2007 11:54 AM

"Here is why I favor gun control. This attacker was not a criminal, and although he was eccentric, he lived within the apparent bounds of normality. He was rational enough to go to school, to obtain a gun and to execute people in a methodical way with it."

jewdog,

I think history shows that all such restrictions do is remove from law-abiding people the means to defend themselves. Criminals have no compunction about stealing guns or buying them on the black market.

This guy may have bought his gun legally but it's also a fact that guns were banned on campus, so all who respect the rule of law came to class unarmed. Why would you remove from the law-abiding person the means to defend himself? There are a lot more guns in this country than there are people who use them to kill.
What's next? In another attempt to kill people on a college campus the weapon of choice was a car. Hey! Let's ban cars within one mile of a campus!

Posted by: PMK at April 18, 2007 11:56 AM

I don't know anyone who, when they heard of this attack, said "I bet it was the South Koreans!" But that is what we are being criticised for. Meanwhile, on the subject of a group of people who actually do commit violent acts on a regular basis, there is silence.

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 12:04 PM

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Ben Franklin 1759
Definitely one of our best and brightest.

Posted by: tgusa

Amen, and thank you. I can't comprehend how the people on the left use this quote to rail against all efforts to rein in Islamic terrorists.
They oppose the Patriot Act because it makes government a big brother who can listen in on our conversations but they see nothing wrong with demanding that all Americans forfeit their Second Amendment protections because of a few bad people.

I believe in the 2nd Amemdment and I'm not a gun owner.

Posted by: PMK at April 18, 2007 12:15 PM

Jewdog, would you feel better if he had chained the doors shut and firebombed the building with homemade Molotov cocktails? A handgun is not a very efficient way of killing large numbers of people.

People who are bent on killing people wiil find a way, whether Jewdog likes it or not.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 18, 2007 12:22 PM

Awake,

Your message to me really is absolute tosh. I yield to no-one in my admiration for Robert Spencer and all that he has done and is doing. I merely meant to suggest that it was maybe unwise to post ANYTHING about this case until it was clear who the perpetrator was, and what were his likely motives. It is that, I believe, which gives ammunition to our enemies. I don't think Robert would take your rather hysterical view of my mild comments. He knows this site isn't the "Robert Spencer Fan Club" site.

Posted by: JFGR at April 18, 2007 12:28 PM

Multi culturalism, Alienation and the link between the failure to demand immigrants learn and become proficient in the language spoken by the majority of that population in our case English. The perp had poor language and communications skills despite the fact he came here as a child. If you live in a country and can not communicate with your fellow citizens eventually you will become alienated from the people of that country, you may feel as if you are not part of that citizenry. The day to day feeling that you are an outsider will lead to anger and resentment and over time it will begin to fester. America has tried over the last 30 years to become the home away from home to millions of immigrants. Why, because we wanted them to feel as if they are living back home while in reality they have moved to a completely different country. Instead of assimilating them they have through MC had a stake driven into the assimilation and real inclusion process they should have received. If and when that becomes unbearable it is predictable that you may take out your frustrations on those you feel have left you out those that made sure that you did not have the tools required to integrate. The MC Balkanization of our culture promoted his anti social behavior, if it were me I would have to say, these people don’t want me included they want me to stay in my own corner to speak a language not many understand. In my opinion the powers that be have done a grave disservice to us all. One of the best ways to guarantee success in America is to make sure your kids are able to read, write and comprehend English before they attend school. Every child I have ever seen that failed, quit or began to get into trouble had poor reading skills and that leads to poor everything skills. With indigenous Americans in many cases it leads to falling behind in school, if others are reading the assignment in 5 minutes and it takes you the whole class period to do the same you will fall behind. And every day that nothing changes you fall further and further behind become more and more alienated. I am not looking for excuses I am searching for answers. Anti depressants may have been the trigger but the explosive charge was primed over many years. The gun while not responsible was the vehicle he picked to carry out his frustration with but he could just as easily set fire to the building. The only way to stop this is to force immigrants to become part of the society they are living in not the other way round. Making it easy yes even preferred that they don’t will only lead to more of these incidents. If you don’t feel as if you are part of America why should you care about the people or country? The answer is you won’t. The synopsis here is that MC leads to alienation, nonassimilation, anger, resentment and finally violence. If you are searching for the root of the problem look to the Multicultural goon squad that has paved the road to nonassimilation. Again no excuses and this is not a 100% blanket cure. We will still have those who simply go nuts but we will drastically reduce the number of incidents like this. We must demand English be 1st, former cultures while it is ok to hold on to them they must not become number one, they must not become the determining factor. Stand up and demand it the lives you save may be your loved ones. There may be some who disagree with me, that’s fine but do yourself a favor and think real hard on this topic and then come to your conclusions.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 12:35 PM

This is from Ken Steadman at Cyberspace ORbit:

"At the moment the authorities pretend they don't know who did it, how or why--which is ridiculous, there were onlookers and wounded survivors. Alas, the cultural-impact will rival 9-11 and thus it needs to be watched like 9-11--which unfortunately is a huge distraction [in both scenarios]. Watch the legislature and see what Draconian laws are passed, a good litmus test. At the least I see gun owners now as cooked ducks.--Kent"

----------------

Amazing how fast Bureaucracy works, eh?

Posted by: allat at April 18, 2007 12:35 PM

“Ok you [England/Britain] went from a absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy when?”

In 1688/89 – read about the overthrow of the Stuarts and the subsequent settlement in any decent history book.

Posted by: JFGR at April 18, 2007 12:40 PM

“"Yet cases of people going berserk and massacring scores of innocents seem to be far less frequent in Europe than America, with its libertarian attitude to the possession of firearms."

And what good was the political correctness of Europe to the people who died on London's mass transit last year? How did Britain's gun ban protect those commuters?”

And how would a gun free-for-all have prevented it? This is irrelevant.

Posted by: JFGR at April 18, 2007 12:44 PM

Ok I was wrong there is one. For now. Thanks for the info JFGR and don’t get me wrong I don’t want to see GB go down the road to annihilation.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 12:47 PM

Tgusa, I think you are really off base in this particular instance. This severely troubled man had poor communication skills only because of his mental derangement. He apparently could write English on the university level. He was withdrawn into himself and could not get out. This is mental illness, which I have experience with as a close relative of a sufferer.

This incident has nothing to do with multiculturalism and all its problems. Had this guy been a WASP we would not even be discussing it.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 18, 2007 12:48 PM

"America is the oldest uninterrupted system of government in the world today, not GB, China, Russia, India or any other."

"The biggest change in America over the last 30 years is primarily immigration based."

tgusa,

Can you shed light on the first statement? Didn't the Brits have Parliament when we declared independence? The monarch may have lost some power since then, but isn't the system of government still the same?

I agree with you about immigration. People refuse to admit that, in the name of diversity, we are admitting criminals. How is it that we cannot deport members of Central American gangs?

I would call it one of many changes. A few more:

self-esteem - Now someone else has caused you to fail. You are not responsible for yourself.

hate-speech - Instead of standing up for yourself against the bully you must go to your teacher and cry that he hurt your feelings. You don't develop the ability to shrug off insults or to deal with cruel people. (This would seem to be incompatible with the self-esteem movement, but then I'm not a sociologist.)

psychiatry - How is it that an anti-depressant can make someone MORE vulnerable to suicide?

Civil commitment laws - you can no longer commit someone involuntarily. People want to blame the school for not "doing something" about this young man but what could they reasonably do? They are not allowed to commit him unless he openly poses a threat to the community. The first time he did that was when he killed all those people.

Posted by: PMK at April 18, 2007 12:48 PM

“Europeans had two world wars because the average joe were [sic] not well armed.”

Well, that certainly puts all those historians in their place who have been arguing for decades over the precise causes of WWI and WWII!

Posted by: JFGR at April 18, 2007 12:56 PM

“Tgusa, I think you are really off base in this particular instance.”
No problem Pelayo, I just thought I would throw it out there, something we can hash and rehash, maybe something good will come out of such an atrocious incident.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 1:01 PM

JFGR said

this site isn't the "Robert Spencer Fan Club" site

Abdullah and An American (the one doing all the thinking) will be very upset to hear that.

Posted by: special_guest at April 18, 2007 1:11 PM

They didn't speculate about what they or others would do if the shooter turned out to be a crazed white supremacist, or one of those violent Christians we keep hearing so many hypotheticals about, or a deranged South Korean English major, because while individuals can do anything there are no large groups or recurring incidents involving such people

And hence, noticeably absent are any speculations that the "Bush/Mossad conspiracy" were behind the VT shootings. Only if a Muslim were involved would there be such murmurings.

Which begs the question --- why didn't this "Bush/Mossad conspiracy" simply fabricate evidence and pin the VT shootings on Muslims anyway, to opportunistically beef up waning public support for their WOT?

Why aren't the 9/11 Truthers out there claiming the VT atrocity was engineered by the Bush administration? Surely, all the questions regarding VT police/security delays of a campus lockdown are conspiracy fodder equal to that of Bush's "My Pet Goat" daze and the "hesitation" of sending fighter jets to intercept the hijacked airplanes. Where are the Truthers' screams for the "real truth" surrounding VT?

Posted by: yadayada at April 18, 2007 1:34 PM

Robert, in his update of the VTech shooter wrote:
"I am writing this post now because some people are seizing upon "Ismail Ax" as evidence that Cho was a lone mujahid, like Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar. But writing a cryptic phrase on one's arm and then going to kill people does not make someone a jihadist."

Robert felt the clarification was warranted because he was, once again, being painted as a religious bigot on outside blogs, that he was implying that the shooter was Islamic, which from his original posting, was simply not true.

JFGR then followed up with this gem:
"You did, Robert, but you also followed the headline “Virginia Tech shootings: "no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack"” with the comment "But all avenues will be explored."” And if that comment appears on a site called “Jihad Watch”, some people (including a number of the more hot-headed posters on this site) could reasonably draw the conclusion that you might have been implying that there was a jihadist element in this sad story. A miscalculation, in my humble opinion."

So not only do you erroneously label a quote from the FBI agent as a comment by Robert, but you then go on to justify people on and off this site for correlating the shooter and Islam due to Robert's mistake for originally posting the story?

From a later post, JFGR wrote:
"I merely meant to suggest that it was maybe unwise to post ANYTHING about this case until it was clear who the perpetrator was, and what were his likely motives. It is that, I believe, which gives ammunition to our enemies."

So let me get this straight. You totally miss the point of the initial story as put forth by Robert and his obvious intent of questioning the investigative authorities and the MSM's intentions, a theme touched on consistently here at this site, and then proceed to castigate him for your lack of perception?

C'mon now JFGR, let's get back to reality here. If Robert had alluded that the shooter had a possible affiliation with Islam, from the original story or in his explicit clarification in the update, your statements might be valid, but alas, he did not, so they do not.

If your going to publicly criticize someone for what you deem that they implied, at least be somewhat accurate. Loose posts with inaccuracies that distort people's views, especially when they are the views of Robert here at this site, are far more destructive than his innocuous implication in the original story.

I have no doubt that you will remain willfully obstinate in this matter, with my obvious "hysterics" aside.

Posted by: awake at April 18, 2007 2:01 PM

Malkin’s got more quotes from Hinkler a year ago:

Hincker continued: "The writer would have us believe that a university campus, with tens of thousands of young people, is safer with everyone packing heat. Imagine the continual fear of students in that scenario. We've seen that fear here, and we don't want to see it again…Guns don't belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same."

http://www.michellemalkin.com/

Posted by: pez at April 18, 2007 3:20 PM

"I don't forsee the 2nd amendment being done away with but even if it were, I'm sure there would be lots of usually law abiding citizens who would keep and bear arms illegally just like the bad guys.

Posted by: dms "

Slightly off topic

Pardon, but as of this moment - AGAIN -
Congress is trying to put a a "Hate Bill" through.

http://www.rense.com/general76/alerte.htm

This -obviously - will disallow sites like this one, from existing.

As you noticed, I keep informing people here, about it. But that's because even though the BIll is defeated at any time, Congross...ehr, Congress keeps trying to put it through. Time and time again.

CONGRESS NEVER SLEEPS!

The day we get distracted, is the day they will pass it.

Thing is, if they start messing with the Bill of Rights and deleting one, it's going to be easier deleting the rest.

I do know that if this is done, there's going to be such an uprising and rebellion.

Posted by: allat at April 18, 2007 3:31 PM

Hi american friends,

I feel very ashamed for the arrogant and wicked reaction of the european press and european lefties to the massacre at the university. You know the tenor: the American bear themselves the guilt for this massacre because of their liberal weapon laws.What a piteous gloating-joy over the misery of innocent people. But there isn't only the main-stream press. Enter the blogosphere and you will see that you have a lot of friends. "Politically Incorrect" one of the most popular blogs in Germany and explicitly pro-America has written soon after the incident an article
dealing with the infamous victim-bashing in the european press. Many Europeans know despite everything what they owe to America.

Greetings from Germany

lebowski

Posted by: lebowski at April 18, 2007 3:33 PM

Pelayo, I agree with everything else in your most recent post except this:

"He apparently could write English on the university level."

Have you read his 'screenplays'? (a charitable description at best). You know, "Richard McBeef" and "Mr. Brownstone." My God, how on earth was he allowed to continue in this way to a senior level majoring in English? Probable answer: He showed up for classes and paid his tuition. That alone will get most anyone through today's universities, at least in liberal arts.

Posted by: alexon at April 18, 2007 3:51 PM

It's ok lebowski:

We hear that repititious rambling all the time, like being accused of "arrogance", by such notable pious countries...like France. LOL
We're also well aware of the sources, which is why we don't consider them important.

We expect nothing less than such drivel coming from folks whose still-unlearned attitudes (and the resultant naivete`) produced a destroyed continent, twice in a 30-year span (reinforcing the old adage: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on ME).

We did enjoy the laughter triggered from the virtual message that, somehow, the massacre was actually the fault, somehow, of Charlton Heston.
lol

So relax, Hr. Lebowski...we know such invectives is, by no means, unanimous.
bis spaete!

Posted by: jcom972 at April 18, 2007 3:53 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about renewed efforts at gun control here in the U.S. The Democrats have pretty much given up on this issue since they've always gotten their butts kicked when they push on it, especially in the South (but not just in the South by any means).

Posted by: alexon at April 18, 2007 3:55 PM

Good point alexson:

Such script could also be easily found in such notable lyrics as those produced by rappers like snoopY dog, and such enlightening scenes such as "deAf poetry jam".

Just another result of the inescapable moral:
We get what we tolerate.

Posted by: jcom972 at April 18, 2007 3:57 PM

Welcome lebowski! Can you link us to the politically incorrect blog? (even if it's in German only).

Posted by: alexon at April 18, 2007 3:57 PM

Hi alexon,

www.politicallyincorrect.de

Best regards

lebowski

Posted by: lebowski at April 18, 2007 4:04 PM

wow, that's more pro-American than most Americans.

Posted by: alexon at April 18, 2007 4:25 PM

Moreover, such a killing-spree could never happen in Europe. In Europe killing-sprees are of course against the law.

Posted by: lebowski at April 18, 2007 4:49 PM

That Cho has such an ugly puss.

I wonder -Is it because what I know of him or because his vibrations are coming through the photo?

Posted by: allat at April 18, 2007 5:18 PM

Alexon, I have not read any of his stuff. Nothing in liberal arts academia surprises me. I'll take your word for it.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 18, 2007 5:19 PM

You are dreaming...in 50 years you won't have sufficient childrens to raise an army... but muslims will....so we'll visit you instead. please leave some bread out.
Posted by: Naseem
Naseem you muslims blow up your children at a faster rate than you can have them, and what does not blow die of diseases easily prevented by vaccines. muslim children are not loved, they are used for slaughter by your moon god.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at April 18, 2007 6:03 PM

Awake,

Since you persist for some reason in trying to label me a Spencer-basher, I will, at the cost of boring everyone else, have to defend myself. You say:

“JFGR then followed up with this gem: "You did, Robert, but you also followed the headline “Virginia Tech shootings: "no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack"” with the comment "But all avenues will be explored."” And if that comment appears on a site called “Jihad Watch”, some people (including a number of the more hot-headed posters on this site) could reasonably draw the conclusion that you might have been implying that there was a jihadist element in this sad story. A miscalculation, in my humble opinion." So not only do you erroneously label a quote from the FBI agent as a comment by Robert, but you then go on to justify people on and off this site for correlating the shooter and Islam due to Robert's mistake for originally posting the story? “

If you read my post again, you will see that I did not “erroneously label a quote from the FBI agent as a comment by Robert”. I said that Robert followed the headline with THE comment … Of course I realized that the quote was not Robert’s – that was quite clear from the article. What I was doubting was the wisdom of juxtaposing that headline with that quote on a site devoted to anti-jihadism. It was clearly taken by others (whom I do NOT justify) as an innuendo, and my point was that we should be careful not to give our enemies a stick with which to beat us. You yourself call it “his innocuous implication”, but our foes, as we know, are likely to pounce on this as jumping to unwarranted conclusions, such as (to put it crudely)that we want to think “If it’s a massacre, it must be the work of Muslims”.

“You totally miss the point of the initial story as put forth by Robert … and then proceed to castigate him for your lack of perception?”

I did nothing of the sort, unless you think that mild criticism is “castigation”. To repeat, I said it was “a miscalculation, in my humble opinion”

“Loose posts with inaccuracies that distort people's views, especially when they are the views of Robert here at this site, are far more destructive than his innocuous implication in the original story.”

It was not a distortion of Robert’s views – I was questioning not his views but his editorial judgment in this instance. As I said, I have the greatest respect for Robert, but it falls short of idolatry.

Posted by: JFGR at April 18, 2007 6:22 PM

what the marxist european anti-individualism, anti-american press fail to realise is, that unarmed young americans died that day by a F###ING ARMED FOREIGNER WHO KILLED INNOCENT UNARMED KIDS.

those kids respected the laws of the land, they carried no guns into school but this non native psychopath went to that school armed. yet the marxist press blame americans??????????????????

i am a brit living in the USA, and i thank god everyday that i live in the greatest country in the world with the most wonderful people around me.

my condolences to those killed and wounded, my heart bleeds for you.

to those in europe, i feel deeply sorry for you that you have to continue living with a bunch of weak, limped wristed marxist burocrats that claim to be liberal yet can have you arrested and put in prison for not having a firckin TV license!!!

wake up and start the british rebellion, i'll come back once you grow some balls.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at April 18, 2007 7:24 PM

JFGR wrote:
"that was quite clear from the article. What I was doubting was the wisdom of juxtaposing that headline with that quote on a site devoted to anti-jihadism."

This rationale is where you lost me. The quote had absolutely nothing to do with jihad and everything to do with current US operational procedures in law enforcement and the media. Those two entities consistently operate under an obfuscating haze of political correctness. The FBI initially denies any link to terrorism, even in the absence of any proof otherwise, and the MSM...well, we know what they do. This is not a new position from Robert, as you well know.

JFGR wrote:
"You yourself call it “his innocuous implication”,"

I did, but once again, Robert's implication was exactly what I stated about ten times now, you know, about law enforcement and the MSM, not jihad, not Islam. I can't make that any clearer.

JFGR wrote:
"but our foes, as we know, are likely to pounce on this as jumping to unwarranted conclusions, such as (to put it crudely)that we want to think “If it’s a massacre, it must be the work of Muslims”."

Exactly my point. They are more likely to pounce when people in our community criticize Robert. Your comments belied a lack of a basic comprehension of Robert's implication and if WE make mistakes in our comments, mistakes about what Robert is saying or implying, our collective opponents will surely do the same, citing posters like yourself, to support their positions. It really is that simple.

In all fairness JFGR, I in no way attempted to label you a Robert-basher, mainly since I know you are not. You are defending your right to criticism while not addressing the fact that your criticism of Robert in your post relayed that you obviously mistook Robert's implication in the first story, period. "Idolatry" of Robert, whatever you are now implying, has absolutely no bearing in this discussion.

I have explained what I believe was Robert's intention in the first story several times now. You on the otherhand have not yet acknowledged it. Forget for a second what was posted and what has transpired. The direct question is, do you agree with my assesment of what Robert was implying in the body of the first story he posted or not? If not, please elaborate on exactly what you believe his implication was?

Posted by: awake at April 18, 2007 7:32 PM

Been doing lots of reading/listening and I’m ready to walk the plank, I hope there is as much water below as I believe there is.
Cho… Psychopath...America Hat...Homicidal Maniac...Anti Christian......Islamist
Make no mistake this is my own and only my own observation.

Posted by: tgusa at April 18, 2007 7:39 PM

awake,

"if WE make mistakes in our comments, mistakes about what Robert is saying or implying, our collective opponents will surely do the same, citing posters like yourself, to support their positions."

Frankly, why should we care about people stupid enough to fall for the bankrupt demagoguery of transparently untenable citations by our opponents of posters who might commit the horrible crime of not walking on eggshells? If readers are that stupid to fall for such baseless slander of Spencer, they likely wouldn't make very useful allies anyway -- nor will their enmity be significant for long, resting on ludicrously insubstantial poppycock anyway.

mountainecho,

If you are reading this and you'd like to receive a reply from me to your post from the other ("Nigerian") thread, please send me your email to paulkmts@yahoo.com. I don't want to clutter up Fitzgerald's thread with my somewhat off-topic "hobbyhorse".

Posted by: remote_control at April 18, 2007 8:56 PM

remote,

Considering the current state of the US, with the forced affliction of PC multiculturalism, the vehicle that currently sustains the historically unsustainable ideology of Islam in western societies, we should care. Stupidity or ignorance is inherently dangerous by nature. When enough people subscribe to stupidity, it becomes the rule, not the exception.

I agree that we need not worry what overt opponents think, just about how many people these opponents can convince to subscribe to their position. The majority of the people in this country are in the middle, with respect to their belief of Islam. This unfortunate mass of ignorant people, who cannot find any truth in the information they receive from the media, are forced to seek out real information about the real problem that Islam has posed and will continue to pose, from sites just like this one.

We should care about these people. We should take care not to throw these people away, for they will surely go if we do. The tendrils of PC are dug so deeply into the fabric of US society, it is all-controlling. You, of all people, know this to be true. PC can destroy decades worth of work in mere seconds.

Opponents of Robert will use baseless, unsubstantiated attacks all the time in an attempt to manipulate those ignorant souls who are currently in play, to subscribe to their point of view. That is expected. We however, should offer no assistance to their cause.

In the modern internet blogging world, it only takes one small misstep to bring the whole house down to the ground.

Posted by: awake at April 18, 2007 10:00 PM

Attention Pelayo

(Cho, a South Korean national and resident alien)
Copied from Washington Times.

It doesn't matter if he's almost a citizen. That's like being almost 16 years old. You still can't have a driver license.

The American Consitution is for Americans and not the remainder of the Globe. I wouldn't give up my right to arms or the guns I possess as a priviledge, but what part of the Consitution allows foreign nationals to be covered under the umbrella of our hard fought freedoms. Enemy combatants shouldn't be protected and neither should the priviledges we enjoy be squandered.

Posted by: raja at April 18, 2007 11:13 PM

"but what part of the Consitution allows foreign nationals to be covered under the umbrella of our hard fought freedoms."

Raja, I still believe that a permanent resident should have the means to adequately to defend himself or herself. If that makes you uncomfortable, write your congressman and senator.
I'm sorry that I was born too late to fight in the American Revolution, how hard did you fight back in 1780 to earn these freedoms? That winter in Valley Forge was a bitch, huh?

Posted by: Pelayo at April 18, 2007 11:41 PM

Raja, this is a long thread, so I assume that you missed the comment where I reminded everyone that a permanent resident (Cho) would be subject to the draft as was the case with earlier draft laws.

Reply, please.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 18, 2007 11:48 PM

"what the marxist european anti-individualism, anti-american press fail to realise is, that unarmed young americans died that day by a F###ING ARMED FOREIGNER WHO KILLED INNOCENT UNARMED KIDS." --leon

I agree 100% that only U.S. Citizens should be allowed the critical right to buy guns. (I'll let Pelayo duke it out with raja for the fine points of that argument).

However... "the F###ING ARMED FOREIGNER" part of your post is way out of line imo. How often in this type of spree shooting is the perp a foreigner? (which even in this case he technically wasn't). Not very often. True, there was the recent case in Utah (similar to VT in that the killer came to this country young), but otherwise I can't think of another. Most of the time these killers are born and bred in America, sadly enough.

At Columbine the two killers were born and bred in America. They massacred other kids born and bred in America. Did you get less incensed about that slaughter because the perps were both 100% American?

I take a back seat to NO ONE in my disdain for that despicable, hateful bastard who murdered all those innocent people at Virginia Tech. But to seize on the fact that he was born in another country (like you!) has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! unless you are going to join in with pelayo and raja and work that angle of the tragedy.

p.s. this post is written by a 100% American whose DIRECT ancestor Francis Cooke came to America on the F##KING MAYFLOWER!! Does that add additional points to my argument?

Posted by: alexon at April 19, 2007 12:29 AM

"p.s. this post is written by a 100% American whose DIRECT ancestor Francis Cooke came to America on the F##KING MAYFLOWER!! Does that add additional points to my argument? '

Ha, ha! Who the hell cares whether your ancestor came on the Mayflower, my good man!

Mine were there to meet them!

Posted by: allat at April 19, 2007 12:51 AM

"Ha, ha! Who the hell cares whether your ancestor came on the Mayflower, my good man!" -- allat

Exactly My Point You Dimwit!

Posted by: alexon at April 19, 2007 12:53 AM

Today, it came out that Cho's comments regarding Christianity were negative. We don't know what they were, just that they were negative. We still don't know what Cho's "own religion" is. NBC received a 23-page manifesto; they have chosen to publish only 5 of the pages, even those being heavily redacted, and at this moment, even those 5 redacted pages are unavailable for viewing. According to their website, "NBC News has chosen to withhold publishing of the entire document at this stage of the law enforcement investigation." There were 27 QuickTime video files, of which 1 or two have been shown. The release of any information about Cho's motivation is being very carefully controlled.

Posted by: special_guest at April 19, 2007 2:31 AM

NBC would have released his entire manifesto by now if he was a Neo-Nazi. That said, if the nut mentions his enemies by name, then I can understand the long delay.

Posted by: Bingo at April 19, 2007 3:13 AM

There is a tenuous link to the Saudis here

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070419/tts-uk-crime-usa-shooting-korea-ca02f96_1.html

Posted by: raz at April 19, 2007 3:28 AM

awake,

"Considering the current state of the US, with the forced affliction of PC multiculturalism...we should care. Stupidity or ignorance is inherently dangerous by nature. When enough people subscribe to stupidity, it becomes the rule, not the exception."

I agree about the problem of PC, but I don't think our comporting ourselves more carefully would cause any of these stupid people to change their minds -- nor would their gloating at our excessive comments (whether really excessive or just imagined to be so) have a substantial effect on increasing PC, in my opinion.

"I agree that we need not worry what overt opponents think, just about how many people these opponents can convince to subscribe to their position."

I don't think it's a matter of them needing to convince: they are simply in a holding pattern, holding to the dominant and mainstream PC line. It is we who have to work on increasing our numbers from our still minority status. The PC people are just reiterating the Party Line; we, however, are trying to forge new territory in public discussion, going against the grain, outside the box. It is we who have to try to convince as many off the margins of the PC masses to cross over to our side; the PC idiots only have to dig in and try to maintain their majority they already have.

"The majority of the people in this country are in the middle, with respect to their belief of Islam."

If by "middle" you mean they think Islam is a major religion of nice smiling polite ethnic peoples and therefore must be harmless and that all the trouble is coming from a small minority of "extremists", then I agree.

"We should care about these people. We should take care not to throw these people away, for they will surely go if we do."

My point is that if any from among these people will demonstrate the basic open-mindedness and common sense that would lead them to begin to change their minds after slowly assimilating information about Islam, they are not likely to be the types that would be successfully put off by apparently excessive comments here, nor by troublemakers trying to exploit the excessive comments here. Of course, I don't advocate commenters here to go ballistic in completely uncensored fashion, nor do I think it would be harmless to our cause if we allowed traffic of commenters who are extremist in their apparentlyr racist and violent vitriol. But there is a wide spectrum below those extremes that I feel is silly to worry about to similar degrees.

"The tendrils of PC are dug so deeply into the fabric of US society, it is all-controlling. You, of all people, know this to be true. PC can destroy decades worth of work in mere seconds."

I disagree with the way you describe the problem here: it's not so much that PC "can" destroy; the problem is that it already exists solidly in place as a de facto destruction -- through conquest -- of the situation. We need to build ourselves out of the rubble of an already done deal of "destruction". PC is an inert machine, not needing to engage, sitting on its dominance; we are the ones dynamically struggling to bring the life of the open mind back to the scene.

Posted by: remote_control at April 19, 2007 5:25 AM

“The direct question is, do you agree with my assesment of what Robert was implying in the body of the first story he posted or not? If not, please elaborate on exactly what you believe his implication was?”

For the last time, I am NOT talking about what Robert might or might not have been implying. I was talking about the wisdom of running this story in this way, with these words, on this site. Let’s drop it, shall we?

Posted by: JFGR at April 19, 2007 6:32 AM

There's a new article on this subject posted today (4-19). We could all move over there. This thread is getting full.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 19, 2007 9:42 AM

remote,

In a "brief" summary, there are more people "in the middle" mindset on nearly all socio-political issues that on the extremes in the US. Through PC, the image of Islam is one of peace, merely adulterated by the few. PC tells you not to fear Islam, but people who see acts they deem as disgusting, acts by those in the name of Allah, wil start to question that PC premise, regardless if they are told otherwise by the MSM. These people are at a critical point. These are the people who's minds we need to change, I agree.

This whole over-blown discussion started when I criticized JFGR for what I deemed a loose comment and an incorrect assumption of the reason Robert posted on the original story of the VTech shooter, which I absolutely still stand by, but nevertheless, does not seem to be progressing through discourse, so it seems futile to continue.

remote:
"My point is that if any from among these people will demonstrate the basic open-mindedness and common sense that would lead them to begin to change their minds after slowly assimilating information about Islam, they are not likely to be the types that would be successfully put off by apparently excessive comments here, nor by troublemakers trying to exploit the excessive comments here."

It is this particular assumption that I disagree with. These people are being smothered by PC, which like you stated, is enjoing it's current position of mainstream dominance. People can be informed of the true nature of Islam, and it works to chip away at the monument of PC that has been forced upon their cognitive processing, but one may refute Islam without refuting PC. Your assumption that "these are not likely" should be true, but may not, so a modicum of caution is warranted in my opinion.

Monitoring the comments of the community for their specific beliefs is not really my concern. I fully agree with your asessment that excessively vitriolic or "racist" comments will detract from the sincere message that is being put forth here. What I am concerned most with, is fully understanding the point of the administrators of this site, for their words are exponentionally more important than the average community poster. We need to take care not to misinterpret what THEY are saying, for many eyes are now upon them, many eyes who are still afflicted with PC.

JFGR:
"For the last time, I am NOT talking about what Robert might or might not have been implying. I was talking about the wisdom of running this story in this way, with these words, on this site. Let’s drop it, shall we?"

Agreed.

Posted by: awake at April 19, 2007 10:08 AM

Last comment for me.

I am not an advocate for gun control and if this guy wanted a weapon or means to the end, he would have had it.

My comments were meant to find someone who knows which provision or amendment of the consitution allowed Cho to buy the weapon or why previous court rulings on his psych were not discovered. I have legal consul who sits beside me to review these comments, I'm married to her. I believe these are defects in our system. Nothing more nothing less.

ps Drop the profanity. Definitely emotional baggage.

Posted by: raja at April 19, 2007 10:22 AM

Last comment for me.

I am not an advocate for gun control and if this guy wanted a weapon or means to the end, he would have had it.

My comments were meant to find someone who knows which provision or amendment of the consitution allowed Cho to buy the weapon or why previous court rulings on his psych were not discovered. I have legal consul who sits beside me to review these comments, I'm married to her. I believe these are defects in our system. Nothing more nothing less.

ps Drop the profanity. Definitely emotional baggage.

Posted by: raja at April 19, 2007 10:22 AM

Raja, This is important. He was sentenced to voluntary treatment after one incident. It was stated that if he was sentenced to involuntary treatment, it would have most likely shown up in the background check thus prohibiting him from getting a legal firearm.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 19, 2007 10:59 AM

Hey everybody,
Lets not argue about who got here first. If you were here before 1776 you are a native American of the United States, something to be proud of for sure. But there are also millions of others who came later and hold the very same values. So let’s get back to being patriots, together. Any who hold our values no matter when or where they came from are with us even if they live in another part of the world as we speak. Come one come all who share our love of freedom and our respect for human dignity and our will to see this through no matter where it leads us.

Posted by: tgusa at April 19, 2007 11:40 AM

And for any islamists/mental midgets out there the you I refer to is “your bloodline” so save the bologna for some leftard/islamist/mental midget websites. There, I splained it for ya.

Posted by: tgusa at April 19, 2007 12:05 PM

This disturbed terrorist guy was clearly a man who believed Jesus was crossified ,which make me think he was Christian as I dont think Jews believe in Christ and Muslims dont believe he was crossified?
any comments..

Libralism is a mental disorder!

Posted by: Millions03 at April 19, 2007 12:22 PM

Wow it seemed many of you were just drooling from the mouth praying it was a Muslim.

"I found that fascinating. They didn't have any trouble discussing the possibility that the killer might have been a Muslim, because they know, as does everyone, that there are jihadists who would like to carry out this kind of attack, and may do so someday"

What suprises me is that people like you don't look at these home grown mass murders. It would be an interesting study to see how many mass murders have been committed by home-grown American in the past 15-20 years. But yes you can get caught up with all with this "jihadist" threat and keep ignoring the real threat in your own backyard.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-fox17apr17,0,6739883.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/waleed_shaalan/index.html

It seems Muslims can heroes too.

Posted by: eessaa at April 19, 2007 3:32 PM

I meant to say "can be heroes too."

Posted by: eessaa at April 19, 2007 3:33 PM

Everyone talks about this guy being a paranoid schizophrenic, a loner, a weirdo.

I expect that most of these assessments are absolutely true.

He MAY have had delusions of grandeur. Maybe he thought he was waging a form of jihad. His attack and video certainly fit the pattern.

I'd like to know where he got his training with the firearms.

Tell me if you folks agree with me. Does it really matter if he was a terrorist or not?

ALL TERRORISTS ARE NUTTERS. They suffer delusions of grandeur, actually believe they will get 72 virgins when they blow themselves up and act out from brainwashing of an evil religion.

There is nothing normal about the mindest of a terrorist.

Posted by: The Goobs at April 20, 2007 9:53 AM