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Answering a perceived -- and even then, figurative -- "attack" with a literal one. More on this story. "Bible attack suspects detained," from CNN:
MALATYA, Turkey (AP) -- Police detained five more people Thursday in connection with an attack on a Christian publishing house that killed three employees, doubling the number of suspects in custody, a Turkish official said.
One group of suspects detained in the slayings Wednesday told investigators they carried out the killings to protect Islam, a Turkish newspaper reported.
The attack added to concerns in Europe about whether this predominantly Muslim country -- which is bidding for EU membership -- can protect its religious minorities. It also underlined concerns about rising Turkish nationalism and hostility toward non-Muslims.
"We didn't do this for ourselves, but for our religion," Hurriyet newspaper quoted a suspect as saying. "Our religion is being destroyed. Let this be a lesson to enemies of our religion."
The paper did not name the suspect. Local media said the suspects were students, and that the residence where they were staying belongs to an Islamic foundation.
On Wednesday, police detained four youths, aged 19-20, as well as a fifth who underwent surgery for head injuries after he parently tried to escape by jumping from a window at the Zirve publishing house in the central city of Malatya.
Malatya Governor Halil Ibrahim Dasoz said another five suspects, detained Thursday, were of the same age as those taken into custody on the day of the attack. He did not say whether the group detained on Thursday had been at the scene of the attack, saying only that they had been picked up at "various locations."
The three victims -- a German and two Turkish citizens -- were found with their hands and legs bound and their throats slit at the publishing house. Police went to the scene after receiving calls about a fight, Milliyet newspaper reported. The five suspects detained Wednesday had been carrying copies of a letter that read: "We five are brothers. We are going to our deaths. We may not return," according to the state-run Anatolia news agency.
Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said the attack had hurt his country's image abroad, and was aimed at "Turkey's peace, Turkey's tradition of tolerance and Turkey's stability."
Ask the Armenians about that, among so many others.
[...]
The German man had been living in Malatya since 2003. Anatolia identified him as 46-year-old Tilman Ekkehart Geske. It was the latest in a string of attacks on Turkey's Christian community -- which comprises less than 1 percent of the 70-million population.
[...]
German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier condemned the attack "in the strongest terms," and said he expected Turkish authorities would "do everything to clear up this crime completely and bring those responsible to justice."
German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrat Party -- which opposes Turkey's bid to join the EU -- said the attacks showed the country's shortcomings in protecting religious freedoms.
"The Turkish state is still far from the freedom of religion that marks Europe," the party's general secretary, Ronald Pofalla, said in a statement.
Turkey began EU membership negotiations in October 2005 but talks have stalled over Turkey's refusal to formally recognize EU-member Cyprus. The country is under intense pressure to improve human rights and to expand religious freedoms and free speech as part of its membership bid. A group of 150 lit candles and unfolded a banner that read "We are all Christians" in downtown Istanbul to protest the attack and show solidarity with the Christian community.
But there was far less public outcry than with Dink's murder, which was followed by widespread protests and condemnations. More than 100,000 people marched at Dink's funeral. Malatya is known as a hotbed of nationalists, and is also the hometown of Mehmet Ali Agca, who shot Pope John Paul II in 1981.
Posted by Marisol at April 19, 2007 2:54 PM
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Notice how the Muhammadans take no responsibility for their gruesome acts.
When the time came for killing...
"When the time came, I did it," Cho said. "I had to."
It's not the murderer who's guilty, but the victim:
"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today. But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."
===================================
Blame it on the victims!
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at April 19, 2007 3:04 PM
The audacity with which Islamic nations cultivate the myth of their supposed "tolerance" for religions other than Islam is exactly why the lie persists. Very few reasonable Westerners can conceive of such bold-faced hypocrisy and outrageous falsehoods as being possible, but the ugly reality is the Congress if a fountain of truth compared to the Middle East.
I'm sick of hearing the excuses from the mouths of the Islamists while Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists and apostates are butchered. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck -- it's a DUCK.
Islam is the Enemy.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 19, 2007 3:07 PM
"the Congress IS a fountain of truth compared..."
My kingdom for an edit function..
Posted by: Foehammer at April 19, 2007 3:08 PM
I have a dime to a jelly doughnut that those 150 demonstrators with the "we are all Christians" signage were organized by the Turkish government. They are so anxious to mesh into the EU and that murder raid was a setback for them. They cannot be trusted.
Posted by: pismopal at April 19, 2007 3:16 PM
Without terror, Islam dies...
Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 19, 2007 3:25 PM
If Turkey can just exterminate its religious minorities, a la Saudi Arabia, then this pesky, infidel notion of "protecting" religious minorities will conveniently go away. Onward to EU membership in good standing....
Posted by: BunrattyBill at April 19, 2007 3:28 PM
Our religion is being destroyed. Let this be a lesson to enemies of our religion."
the turkish muslims are threatened with less than one percent Christians in their country, its more likely when Christians bring books of non koran thinking that makes these islamist scared. so scared these islamist of new information getting into the hands of their people that they kill for this knowledge. it has been trough time and from the begining with muhummad, the mad false prophet destroying and killing anyone with a difference of opinion.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at April 19, 2007 3:35 PM
What are they threatened by? There's one Christian in Turkey for every 100 Muhammadans? Guess it doesn't take much to threaten Muhammadans.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at April 19, 2007 3:49 PM
They didn't do it for their religion, and they know it, as well as us.
They did it out of sheer desperation, to protect their absolute power & control racket they hold over their followers, out of fear their racket will crumble, forcing at least a reform, or total collapse...and they are right.
They want the status quo they've held for almost 1,400 years...but know they're facing a choice they don't wish to make...
...they have to reform, or their religion is finished.
That's why the uptick in violence (not just in turkey), much like a wounded animal that's cornered...they know they MUST win, or they lose, and face a mass lynching by their own victims (ooops, I meant followers) for decieving them for so long.
Nothing difficult about this at all.
at April 19, 2007 3:54 PM
""The Turkish state is still far from the freedom of religion that marks Europe," the party's general secretary, Ronald Pofalla, said in a statement."
Good for you, Mr. Pofalla. You at least stated a partial truth, and that's more than other European leaders will do -- prefering instead to pretend that Islam is a perfectly normal religion that's been hyjacked by exttremists who misinterpret the "true" peaceful nature of Islam.
If you ever decide to go all the way and tell the whole truth, you will tell the Turkish government that Islam is totally incompatible with the secular, tolerant, democratic culture of Western nations, and there is no reason to believe that they ever will be.
Tell them that Europe has already been through that midieval crap of killing and torturing in the name of religion, and they have no desire to return to those happy days.
Tell them that, because they are Muslims, they could not function in an enlightened, civilized, environment like the EU.
Quit pussy-footing around and tell them the whole truth.
at April 19, 2007 3:56 PM
If anyone is under threat in Turkey, it is the infidel. Everybody talks about Kemalism and so-called secularism, but Turkey has seen one of the most precipitous falls in the non-Muslim population of almost any Muslim country. Back in 1914, Istanbul was over 50% non-Muslim. Now it is around 2% non-Muslim, whilst overall Turkey itself was 15% non-Muslim, nowadays 1% non-Muslim. All in 93 years. Christians have faced genocide there for hundreds of years, but Turks will not acknowledge these genocides, and feel not one modicum of guilt for them, whilst far too many non-Muslims pretend it never happened. Muslims detest non-Muslims, yet out of political correctness, we choose to ignore this historical fact.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at April 19, 2007 4:05 PM
""We didn't do this for ourselves, but for our religion ... Our religion is being destroyed. Let this be a lesson to enemies of our religion."
...
.....lesson learned.....Islam is losing....
at April 19, 2007 4:07 PM
""We didn't do this for ourselves, but for our religion ... Our religion is being destroyed. Let this be a lesson to enemies of our religion."
Obviously consistent with the tribal mentality inherent in Islam...kill everyone who is not us. And personally I wonder why anyone would follow a deity who is unable to spread or to maintain it's power except through the murderous actions of puny humans. Why does Islam need protecting by humans if the deity is so powerful?
Posted by: Abby at April 19, 2007 4:25 PM
"Why does Islam need protecting by humans if the deity is so powerful?"
Posted by: Abby
Mr Wizard Replies:
Apparently Allah is not so powerful. Looks as though Allah is facing competition from other divine beings. Muhammadanism is not monotheistic. Muhammadans don't say (as the Jews do) "God is One." They say: "Allah is greater."
Well, greater than who?
Why, the other gods, silly.
IMO, Allah is a figment of the Muhammadans' imagination. A very nasty, bullying, stupid, incoherent figment of the Muhammadan imagination.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at April 19, 2007 4:35 PM
I was wondering how their religion was being destroyed when Islam brags it has 1 billion followers, CAIR runs up 8 million Muslims in America and a great number of people here claim Iraq a failure.
That all sounds like winning propaganda....unless the propaganda is wrong and a little Christian book store holds One Who could make Islam evaporate with the Truth.
Posted by: Lame Cherry at April 19, 2007 4:51 PM
"Everybody talks about Kemalism and so-called secularism, but Turkey has seen one of the most precipitous falls in the non-Muslim population of almost any Muslim country. Back in 1914, Istanbul was over 50% non-Muslim. Now it is around 2% non-Muslim, whilst overall Turkey itself was 15% non-Muslim, nowadays 1% non-Muslim."
posted by spirit of 1683
Has the decline been steady or was there a precipating factor? How much of this decline has come since the fall of the Soviet Union? Before that, Turkey relied on its NATO membership and American might to prevent its takeover by Russia. Militant groups were held in check and the country was frequently run by military dictatorship. I believe they even had relations with Israel.
Now that the Soviet threat is gone, their true colors are showing.
at April 19, 2007 5:09 PM
"Malatya is known as a hotbed of nationalists..."
-- from the article above
What kind of Turkish "nationalists" are these? Indeed, what does it mean to say that someone is a Turkish "nationalist"? Is it someone who endorses the systematic constraints put on Islam by Ataturk, and who regards Erdogan and his followers as an enemy of Turkish "nationalism"? Is it someone who merely wishes to "put Turkey first" as Ataturk did, in order to save the center, even if the "Empire" had to go, and ending what by 1924 was merely a symbolic role as the seat of a supposed caliphate?
Kemalist constraints on Islam could hardly be expected to transform the mentality of the millions, their need for some ideal figure to replace Muhammad as uswa hasana,
did not do away with Muslim al-insan al-kamil.A cult of Ataturk, that began even before his death, and then was greatly expanded afterwards, with his tomb being a place of pilgrimage, within a larger cult of "Turkey" or "the Turks" -- filled out with a mythology about the Turks as the "Sun People" who had always existed in Anatolia, and whose history incorporated, by Turkish national preference, all those who ever existed on the soil of Turkey, long before either the Ottoman or the Seljuk Turks arrived.
"Nationalism" is seen by some as contrary to Islam. Not quite. Non-Muslims could be citizens of Turkey, but they could not be Turks, and despite the formal ending of the millet system, and the granting of legal equality to non-Muslims, they are never quite full citizens, and such relapses as the Varlik Vergesi wartime taxes on non-Muslims alone, taxes that were confiscatory, show how under the "nationalism" there remain the attitudes of traditional Islam, still able to influence both legislation about non-Muslims, and also the informally-determined status of non-Muslims in Muslim Turkey.
at April 19, 2007 5:10 PM
What will the Turks do when that one percent has left the country? Will they follow the example of Iran?
Iran’s Islamic penal code, which is a parallel system to its civic code, says murder charges can be dropped if the accused can prove the killing was carried out because the victim was morally corrupt.
The Iranian Supreme Court has overturned the murder convictions of six members of a prestigious state militia who killed five people they considered “morally corrupt.”
Among those killed were a couple who were engaged and whose sin was walking together in public.
I can't post the link, but it's in today's New York Times.
Posted by: PMK at April 19, 2007 5:16 PM
Muhammed could be quite sadistic, according to Muslim documents. For example, take one of the red hot iron excerpts from Sahih Bukhari*, a group of documents revered by Muslims as second only to the Quran:
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 796:
Narrated Anas: A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk." The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle." So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day. The Prophet [Muhammed] ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized. Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder and fought against Allah and His Apostle.")(my emphasis)
*According to the University of Southern California website, Compendium of Muslim Texts:
"...Bukhari's collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah [life] of the Prophet... The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them."Posted by: traeh
at April 19, 2007 5:19 PM
How many canaries do we need to bring into the mine?
Did the report of these three victims reach US TV news?
It is surprising that even though there were over 1.5 million dead Armenians, I am not sure of the numbers of Assyrians and Greeks and other Christians slaudgtered by Muslim Turks, this part of world history was not taught in the US.
The US, UK and Isareli governments have been assisting Turkish genocide denial thus making it possible for the myth of Muslim tolerance an easy sell.
at April 19, 2007 5:25 PM
OT.
This ones for Abdullah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpKlbhpfYL8
Posted by: km at April 19, 2007 5:33 PM
The pervasiveness of violence demonstrated by the extremists in attempting to "protect" their faith demonstrates the inherent weakness of their faith.
BTW, these Turk islamicist nationalists are doing nothing more than following examples set forth by Saudi Arabia - where they execute you for possessing a bible. Imagine the penalty for printing one.
Posted by: Penfold at April 19, 2007 5:34 PM
Cute. "Ask the Armenians, and so many others." Just cute. Even one of your intellectual founders, who you constantly bash argued that the Armenian genocide didn't happen (Bernard Lewis, who even if you don't think so now [because you are trying to dump the nuke Iran thing on him (sorry I talk about that one a lot recently, but it's just really funny)] is one of the founding fathers of the way Spencer thinks). Also, Turkey does actually have a relatively long period of peace, tolerance and stability (kind of like Europe...oh wait, they were embroilled in endless wars constantly shifting borders until the middle of the Twentieth Century...).
Spencer also really likes that word youths...trying to suggest that youths=MSM coverup for Muslims. Interesting, but what else do you call 18-25 year old people? Old farts? What if they did it for secularist, Ataturk principles? (Also, lots of people live in residences that are Islamic foundations, you don't have to be Muslim or radically Islamic to live in them!)
Just doing some thinking...
(By the way, sorry Marisol but I keep getting comments to Spencer's pieces here and elsewhere confused. You do a really good job sanitizing this website to keep its "scholarly" integrity...he said somewhere that Spencer has no control over the comments on his site, in order to defend himself...I wonder how that works, just gets you to do them?)
at April 19, 2007 5:46 PM
Spencer also really likes that word youths...trying to suggest that youths=MSM coverup for Muslims. Interesting, but what else do you call 18-25 year old people? Old farts? What if they did it for secularist, Ataturk principles? (Also, lots of people live in residences that are Islamic foundations, you don't have to be Muslim or radically Islamic to live in them!)
Posted by: An American at April 19, 2007 05:46 PM
So the fact they targeted Christians and said they did it for religious reasons is completely lost on you.
"Just doing some thinking...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
at April 19, 2007 5:54 PM
@An American:
You're saying that Armenian genocide never happened, despite the fact Armenia is all but surrounded by Islamic states? I see. I suppose Holocaust is a myth, also, and that the world is flat.
Go back into your cave, troll.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 19, 2007 6:02 PM
A poster above doesn't believe the murderers when they claim that they committed the heinous act for their religion. But of course that's why they did it. islam teaches that whatever advances the cause of islam is good; whatever hinders it is bad. Hence, killing infidels is good. Destroying Christian churches & non-islamic houses of worship is good. Insisting that Western democracies implement elements of sharia law is good, even though this fundamentally conflicts with the bedrock democratic principle that one law should apply to all . Making death threats against infidels is good. At the same time, demanding that infidels refrain from ever criticizing islam is even better. Rioting in Malmo & scaring the bejesus out of the indigenous peoples who have lived there for millenia is good, even though you're guests in their country, and if they tried the same thing in your country of origin (e.g., Crapistan) they would likely be killed within minutes.
If you apply the general principle of whatever helps islam is good & whatever hurts it is bad, you can make complete sense of statements & actions, which otherwise seem so hard for the Western mind to comprehend.
Posted by: sheik yer booty at April 19, 2007 6:04 PM
What happened to your site Foehammer?
at April 19, 2007 6:09 PM
Even one of your intellectual founders, who you constantly bash argued that the Armenian genocide didn't happen (Bernard Lewis...Posted by: An American [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 19, 2007 05:46 PM...
Take it easy buster... Bernard Lewis never stated that. Stop feeding horse-sheet. Your kinds are the same, no matter where and when you meet'em. You concoct stories as you type along.
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at April 19, 2007 6:13 PM
Islam is being attacked, Islam is being destroyed.
But: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the history of the universe. The black flag of Islam will fly over the White House, over Downing Street etc.
Which version of paranoid schizophrenia to believe?
Posted by: Dane at April 19, 2007 6:15 PM
"Our religion is being destroyed. Let this be a lesson to enemies of our religion."
The religion is being destroyed by its mandates to deception. Mohammed's mandates to deception and war against unbelievers will destroy Islam. Jihad is not Avant-garde, it is rear guard.
at April 19, 2007 6:19 PM
Islam is its own worst enemy.
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at April 19, 2007 6:22 PM
How can those who follow one of the "prophets" of Islam (Isa = Jesus) be destroying Islam?
Schizophrenia, sign of the Mohammedan.
Posted by: profitsbeard at April 19, 2007 6:23 PM
An American-
Spencer's family had to leave Turkey, some were the victims of Muslim violence. Do you think he might have an obligation to them?
Posted by: Frank at April 19, 2007 6:24 PM
To their memory?
Posted by: Frank at April 19, 2007 6:25 PM
An American-
"Ask the Armenians, and so many others." Ask the people who have been victims of Muslim violence.
Posted by: Frank at April 19, 2007 6:42 PM
"Nationalism" is seen by some as contrary to Islam.
-Hugh
Western nationalism is certainly contrary to Islam. A nationalistic Islamic state? They all seem to resemble each other in various degrees of barbarism. We are at a point where definition is needed and areas of gray are disappearing. It's part of the process of keeping the balance.
Let the non-Muslim refugees be accepted into Infidel lands and let the Muslims who want to undermine the foundations of western society return to designated Muslim lands. It seems that Turkey is leaning Islamist and those who are not have gladly gotten out or have been killed.
at April 19, 2007 6:45 PM
Accepting Turkey into the EU would be like accepting the Trojan Horse. However, the EU also seems intent on blowing away all forms of national heritage and has many of the characteristics of the Islamists. The ingestion of the multicultural dogmatic food that it forces European's to eat seems to be fastest growing disease that's spreading through its Euro body politic and the extent of that ilness seems to be growing like a cancer trying to destroy the European culture. So maybe the EU and Turkey are compatible.
Posted by: Briars at April 19, 2007 6:56 PM
No Armenian genocide by the Turks? Right, and there's no genocide going on in Sudan, either, by the Arabs!!! LOL, "An American," that's just a real knee-slapper. Kind of gullible, aren't you?
Posted by: darcy at April 19, 2007 7:01 PM
darcy-
No. He believes what he desires to believe. If hard evidence were right in front of his eyes, he would find some way to deny reality.
Posted by: Frank at April 19, 2007 7:12 PM
The devil made me do it! If Allah is so kind to them I wonder what their devil is called or would do? No I do not care! They are full of camel piss!
MAY THEY ALL GO TO ALLAH!
at April 19, 2007 7:24 PM
It was made clear awhile back they are going to go after westerners! People take it non chalont! This is what they are calling for and they are doing it here because they can get away with it, soft targets!
Posted by: MZ at April 19, 2007 7:29 PM
The islamists are so frightened by the thought that perhaps Light might be delivered to the islamist masses, that they are now killing to extinguish the light.
Note to islamists: You live in darkness and seek to enslave and smother those who seek Light. Let those who wish to see the Light see it.
In the end, it will not matter how many martyrs and seekers of Light you kill. the Lord knows who seeks Him, and He answers their prayers. The Lord delivers them from darkness to Light.
The shameful deeds of the followers of mohamet come to light each day. There are millions of apostates who have turned from islamism (in their closets) and embrace freedom, love, equality, understanding and acceptance. There are many who have publicly denounced their allegiance to the creed of islam, and their necks are at the end of a sword. There are millions upon millions of closet apostates. Make no mistake.
islam is dying a slow, painful and murderous death.
Posted by: SexyKafira1 at April 19, 2007 8:12 PM
Let them destroy their own religion.
Asked to compare Iraq to Vietnam, a war that still weighs on the American psyche three decades after it ended, Bush told an Ohio audience a premature U.S. withdrawal from Iraq could lead to chaos and death the same way war broke out between Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia after the fall of Saigon in 1975.
"After Vietnam, after we left, millions of people lost their life. My concern is there would be a parallel there," Bush said, adding that "This time around, the enemy wouldn't just be content to stay in the Middle East, they'd follow us here."
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN19440243
25,000 new refugees. I think Hugh is the one who coined the phrase ‘recess is over’. Our military deserves better.
at April 19, 2007 8:59 PM
The only ones destroying Islam are the Muslims themselves, they don't need any help from anyone else, they're doing a grade A job of it totally on their own.
Posted by: abad at April 19, 2007 9:03 PM
Can anyone top Muslims in being the supreme victims? These crazies want us to believe that Islam in Turkey is in danger despite the fact that the country is 99% Muslim. These fine folk were merely committing an act of self defense against that whopping ONE percent who has them on the ropes. Next thing you know they'll be arguing that it was the Nazis who were the victims of the Holocaust.
Oh wait, the jihadist crazies and their enablers have already said that as well. Never mind!
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at April 19, 2007 9:13 PM
"Our religion is being destroyed" is the paranoid delusion of people who need enemies to justify their fantasies of power and hatred, and to make their lives an exciting struggle. If Israel didn't exist, they would need to invent it, and the carnage in Iraq shows that the enemy can be another Muslim if no Infidels are available.
To Muslims like these guys I would say: "Our civilization is being destroyed - by you!".
at April 19, 2007 9:26 PM
"..One group of suspects detained in the slayings Wednesday told investigators they carried out the killings to protect Islam.."
They have provided one more reason that every effort to destroy that religion is worthwhile.
Posted by: rocky at April 19, 2007 9:44 PM
If Islam is being destroyed it has brought this fate upon itself and there is no reason to shed any tears for it. One word not in the Islamic vocabulary is "karma."
In any case, what these idiots are showing is why this so-called "religion" absolutely should be destroyed ASAP!
Posted by: pythagoras at April 19, 2007 10:14 PM
Good night Europe:
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/20/good-night-europe/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 19, 2007 10:43 PM
YES, OUR RELIGION being destroyed!
Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 12:54 AM
"Asked to compare Iraq to Vietnam, a war that still weighs on the American psyche three decades after it ended, Bush told an Ohio audience a premature U.S. withdrawal from Iraq could lead to chaos and death the same way war broke out between Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia after the fall of Saigon in 1975."
Wrong historical lesson here. The Vietnamese invaded Cambodia to END the bloodbath the Khymer Rouge started.
Posted by: jay at April 20, 2007 1:00 AM
Especially right here in America! The whole world is held seized under these bluebloods! Even the ones here our own-well, what ever their beliefs they have tried to make it a religion to not believe and believe like them!
Posted by: MZ at April 20, 2007 1:03 AM
"Our religion is being destroyed--
My dream come true---may its demise be swift but agonizing. Tomorrow would be a perfect day for islam to expel one final gasp of hate and rage and then drop dead.
Posted by: Susanp at April 20, 2007 1:29 AM
Islam will be "destroyed" from within. As with the Protestant Reformation, the coming reformation of Islam will be bloody, likely even more so. The change will be driven by two main internal factors:
Rebellion against the autocratic Islamic monarchies.
Rebellion against imams and clerics whose ultra-rigid interpretation of Islamic teachings leads their cowed followers only to the senseless loss of young lives in an accelerating death spiral. The rebirth of the ijtihad and full awareness that the unimpeachable law of Allah has been corrupted by human representatives will be critical for this development.
The breaking of these monopoly powers in the West lead us to democracy and a host of other developments we can scarcely imagine doing without today. Its time had come.
Muslims cannot and will not be unresponsive to the current madness forever. The monarchies and religious leaders know this and that is why they are so violently and desperately implementing the bulwark that their very way of life depends upon. When this termite-ridden defense breaks (it is starting to crumble now) it will shake the world.
Posted by: lycaste at April 20, 2007 1:34 AM
Islam isn't being destroyed. It's gaining power. It feeds on blood and our world's inertia. In the end it will ultimately be destroyed because it is foretold. But how many of our people, and of theirs, are going to die horrible deaths before that happens? How many people on this planet will be placed under the yoke of slavery and bondage before that happens?
And don't let them fool you about their peace plan for the whole earth. Just like there is no laughter and there is no love in Islam, there is no peace in Islam, and there never will be. You can't create peace through chaos, although many have tried. You can't slaughter huge masses of people and then expect them to live "peacefully" with those who did the slaughtering. It goes completely against human nature.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at April 20, 2007 1:59 AM
Oh dear , poor Old Muhammad and Islam do not stand up too well to close scrutiny.
The man was a gangster...pure and simple but what
really is frightening is that so many millions have been duped by this criminal.
What is so lacking in thier depressing miserable lives they cannot see through it...it must be a
mental illness.
at April 20, 2007 2:02 AM
Kemalist constraints on Islam could hardly be expected to transform the mentality of the millions..[Posted by Hugh]
Indeed, it failed in so doing. Still, that is not a reason to support the so-called "mild islamist" government of Erdogan as do the U.S.
I am astonished to see E.U and the U.S supporting AKP because (they dream) that they will help suppressing Turkish nationalism along with Kemalism (the root of the all evil!!) by replacing it by a society ruled according to "Ummet" principles. So that people will be lulled into an islamic way of life thus will be insensitive to nationalist concerns such as kurdish state in the south, cyprus issue, etc,etc..
Well, expecting that islam can be tamed and controlled and fine-tuned into mild islamism is like putting excessive make-up and cosmetics on a 80 yr old lady, dressing her up in mini skirts and expecting that she looks like a 18 yr old chick.
Looking back at the wonderful success story of the U.S foreign policy, from the war in Korea in 1950s, and Vietnam in 1960s and the Iranian revolution in 1978s, one can easily see where it is leading to as far as Turkey is concerned.
A second Saudi Arabia or UAE perhaps?? Ready to service the U.S interests outside, but living under the veil inside.
A small problem persists however..
Osama Bin Laden is Saudi(U.S ally), taliban is Pakistani fabrication (Another U.S ally)..
at April 20, 2007 4:06 AM
Jay says "Asked to compare Iraq to Vietnam, a war that still weighs on the American psyche three decades after it ended, Bush told an Ohio audience a premature U.S. withdrawal from Iraq could lead to chaos and death the same way war broke out between Vietnam and the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia after the fall of Saigon in 1975."
Wrong historical lesson here. The Vietnamese invaded Cambodia to END the bloodbath the Khymer Rouge started.
And here is a major problem. If our leaders are so ignorant of recent history, how on earth can we expect them to know anything about Mohammed and the history of Jihad? This same ignorance led our leaders to describe Islam as a religion of peace straight after 9/11, therefore denying almost 1,400 years of hard evidence that tells us otherwise. Because we have leaders who are so history-dumb, we are pursuing this war for our survival rudderless and without a compass. And that is a recipe for defeat. Because a thorough non-self-flagellating study of history allows us a way into this enemy's mindset, and provides clues as to how it can be defeated.
at April 20, 2007 5:32 AM
The world has turned and belief systems and tyrants can no longer control everything one of its slaves sees/hears/thinks/feels.
The world is far too small and interconnected now. Ideas without borders.
Islam will die because of this. It can't win because it has tied itself to a stake in the sand and can no longer reach all opponents to silence them.
Let's begin the jihad of ideas in earnest and speed things up.
Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
I didn't say that the Armenian Genocide didn't happen (I actually believed that it did, to a certain extent.) Bernard Lewis was tried and convicted in a Western, secular state by a Western, secular, glorious Western democratic judge (and actually fined 1 Franc for his troubles, what that meant I am still puzzled, but again it is France---ya'll will like that comment). What I'm saying is that it is interesting that the works of
5/71,158,647 (give or take, these are CIA numbers and they are not always completely accurate and I didn't do the .2 percent minorities either, sorry)
constitutes a concerted, Islamic effort to wipe out minorities in Turkey (check the protest stories today) maybe you can cross off 500,000, still doesn't effect the numbers that much (5/70658647).
Just doing some thinking...
(and today, some math!)
at April 20, 2007 9:42 AM
Robert, Marisol - just this once, let me type the one word that comes to mind....
"We didn't do this for ourselves, but for our religion ... Our religion is being destroyed. Let this be a lesson to enemies of our religion."
FREAKS
Posted by: The Goobs at April 20, 2007 9:45 AM
"I didn't say that the Armenian Genocide didn't happen (I actually believed that it did, to a certain extent.)"
Posted by: An American
........number eight is important......
"The 8 Stages of Genocide
by Gregory H. Stanton (Genocide Watch - 5/15/2003)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. CLASSIFICATION:
All cultures have categories to distinguish people into "us and them" by ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality: German and Jew, Hutu and Tutsi. Bipolar societies that lack mixed categories, such as Rwanda and Burundi, are the most likely to have genocide.
The main preventive measure at this early stage is to develop universalistic institutions that transcend ethnic or racial divisions, that actively promote tolerance and understanding, and that promote classifications that transcend the divisions. The Catholic church could have played this role in Rwanda, had it not been riven by the same ethnic cleavages as Rwandan society. Promotion of a common language in countries like Tanzania or Cote d'Ivoire has also promoted transcendent national identity. This search for common ground is vital to early prevention of genocide.
2. SYMBOLIZATION:
We give names or other symbols to the classifications. We name people "Jews" or "Gypsies", or distinguish them by colors or dress; and apply them to members of groups. Classification and symbolization are universally human and do not necessarily result in genocide unless they lead to the next stage, dehumanization. When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups: the yellow star for Jews under Nazi rule, the blue scarf for people from the Eastern Zone in Khmer Rouge Cambodia.
To combat symbolization, hate symbols can be legally forbidden (swastikas) as can hate speech. Group marking like gang clothing or tribal scarring can be outlawed, as well. The problem is that legal limitations will fail if unsupported by popular cultural enforcement. Though Hutu and Tutsi were forbidden words in Burundi until the 1980's, code-words replaced them. If widely supported, however, denial of symbolization can be powerful, as it was in Bulgaria, when many non-Jews chose to wear the yellow star, depriving it of its significance as a Nazi symbol for Jews. According to legend in Denmark, the Nazis did not introduce the yellow star because they knew even the King would wear it.
3. DEHUMANIZATION:
One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder.
At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group. In combating this dehumanization, incitement to genocide should not be confused with protected speech. Genocidal societies lack constitutional protection for countervailing speech, and should be treated differently than in democracies. Hate radio stations should be shut down, and hate propaganda banned. Hate crimes and atrocities should be promptly punished.
4. ORGANIZATION:
Genocide is always organized, usually by the state, though sometimes informally (Hindu mobs led by local RSS militants) or by terrorist groups. Special army units or militias are often trained and armed. Plans are made for genocidal killings.
To combat this stage, membership in these militias should be outlawed. Their leaders should be denied visas for foreign travel. The U.N. should impose arms embargoes on governments and citizens of countries involved in genocidal massacres, and create commissions to investigate violations, as was done in post-genocide Rwanda.
5. POLARIZATION:
Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. Extremist terrorism targets moderates, intimidating and silencing the center.
Prevention may mean security protection for moderate leaders or assistance to human rights groups. Assets of extremists may be seized, and visas for international travel denied to them. Coups d'˘etat by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions.
6. PREPARATION:
Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. They are often segregated into ghettoes, forced into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved.
At this stage, a Genocide Alert must be called. If the political will of the U.S., NATO, and the U.N. Security Council can be mobilized, armed international intervention should be prepared, or heavy assistance to the victim group in preparing for its self-defense. Otherwise, at least humanitarian assistance should be organized by the U.N. and private relief groups for the inevitable tide of refugees.
7. EXTERMINATION:
Extermination begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called "genocide." It is "extermination" to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing. Sometimes the genocide results in revenge killings by groups against each other, creating the downward whirlpool-like cycle of bilateral genocide (as in Burundi).
At this stage, only rapid and overwhelming armed intervention can stop genocide. Real safe areas or refugee escape corridors should be established with heavily armed international protection. The U.N. needs a Standing High Readiness Brigade or a permanent rapid reaction force, to intervene quickly when the U.N. Security Council calls it. For larger interventions, a multilateral force authorized by the U.N., led by NATO or a regional military power, should intervene. If the U.N. will not intervene directly, militarily powerful nations should provide the airlift, equipment, and financial means necessary for regional states to intervene with U.N. authorization. It is time to recognize that the law of humanitarian intervention transcends the interests of nation-states.
8. DENIAL:
Denial is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile. There they remain with impunity, like Pol Pot or Idi Amin, unless they are captured and a tribunal is established to try them.
The best response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts. There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals like the Yugoslav, Rwanda, or Sierra Leone Tribunals, an international tribunal to try the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and ultimately the International Criminal Court must be created. They may not deter the worst genocidal killers. But with the political will to arrest and prosecute them, some mass murderers may be brought to justice.
Copyright © 1998 Gregory H. Stanton"
at April 20, 2007 2:14 PM
Maybe I stating what everybody knows, but let me remind you that :
Very few islamic women do this religious/cult killing/slaughter - the rest of the women are mindless slaves trembing in fear of their masters.
Islamic men always say "Their religion" -
It's a man's religion/cult - the islamic men have no intention of losing their power. Theirs's.
Posted by: allat at April 20, 2007 2:44 PM
Allat says "Very few islamic women do this religious/cult killing/slaughter - the rest of the women are mindless slaves trembing in fear of their masters."
But 50,000 women have volunteered to become shaheeds for Iran. And those are the ones who we know about. There have been women who have volunteered to become suicide bombers - the classic example being the 57-year-old mother of nine and grandmother of 41 last year, and because they lower suspicion, they are extremely dangerous. At the end of the day, the women are just as much the enemy as the men.
at April 20, 2007 4:04 PM
Spirit of 1683:
I don't know about the women volunteers, I was kinda talking about the islamic women that have ALREADY killed non-islamics.
We aren't talking about the future, but the past.
We could talk, however, about the Free women in the West rising up also.
I can just see the fat Cuban mamas that don't put up with anything. I can see the fat blond mamas in the South also.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
When jihad comes to the mainstream America - or even in Western Europe - there's going to be such an uprising!
Let's look at the future, then!
Posted by: allat at April 20, 2007 4:22 PM
"It is surprising that even though there were over 1.5 million dead Armenians, I am not sure of the numbers of Assyrians and Greeks and other Christians slaudgtered by Muslim Turks, this part of world history was not taught in the US. "
-----------
Not to mention the Bosnians and Kosovians and others in that part of the world, that have been recently slaughtered by the islamics - calling themselves "poor victims."
The numbers killed there can be added.
Posted by: allat at April 20, 2007 4:31 PM
Spirit of 1683:
I don't know about the women volunteers, I was kinda talking about the islamic women that have ALREADY killed non-islamics.
And so was I, like that 57 year old mother of nine and grandmother of 41 future walking bombs. Worse still, they don't object to being mindless slaves. They've become immune to, and are happy with suffering.
We aren't talking about the future, but the past.
When we talk about the past, we also happen to be talking about the future as well. Because this will happen again.
Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at April 21, 2007 4:59 AM
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