Just thought I'd go ahead and catch that one. Takfir is more than likely incorrect. Go with al-monafiqa (the ma9dar, not the active participle). Even so, this is extremely questionable. I like how the link says that "Muslims are allowed to wage war on unbelievers," however doesn't go into the details. Such war is allowed, however only in defense of the religion (usually the sentence or the clause immediately before or after the one Spencer quotes condoning violence). Fat7, often described in the West as "conquest" but in Arabic actually means "opening," was and is used today primarily to mean by overthrow of an existing regime (sometimes violent, other times not), allowing a new system where all monotheistic religions (and usually extended to Hindus, Buddhists, and others) could worship freely without the constrictions of an oppressive government (India, although ruled by Muslim rulers for quite some time, is still 80 percent Hindu...odd...the Ottomans too, had local governments where whoever was chosen by the locals ruled (sometimes a Muslim chosen by Christians, sometimes a Christian chosen by Muslims)).

If he is using Takfir or al-monafiqa to justify it, there is no reference made, again Spencer putting words into somebody's mouth. He could be like the Christian generals in Lebanon, bombing churches to blame it on Hizbollah or Palestinians to coerce the community to fight against them even though there was no justification.

Just doing some thinking...

Posted by: An American at April 20, 2007 9:25 AM

"An American" is obviously an American Muslim. Gee, that was a tough one!

Posted by: darcy at April 20, 2007 9:36 AM

@ darcy: Yes, but hey, he loves his baby back ribs! Never mind the fact that he seems ready and willing to support any enemy of the US (except Serbs of course.) He likes ribs.

Posted by: Abu Allah at April 20, 2007 9:42 AM

What about you, Abu? You like ribs?

Posted by: darcy at April 20, 2007 9:52 AM

@An American:

So, the point you are trying to make is that this Muslim on Muslim warfare going on in Serbia is not correctly referred to as “Takfir?” Takfir is when Muslims go up against an established government and not other Muslims they consider incorrect.

What is the proper term for when Muslims blow up each other’s mosques because they don’t think the other is Muslim enough? That looks to be what’s going on here.

You allege:
"He could be like the Christian generals in Lebanon, bombing churches to blame it on Hizbollah or Palestinians to coerce the community to fight against them even though there was no justification.”

I wouldn’t mind seeing some reference for this, other than your assertion.

Posted by: freedomschool at April 20, 2007 10:04 AM

@darcy: Only if they are pork ribs.

Posted by: Abu Allah at April 20, 2007 10:09 AM

Moslem terrorists using dogs ????

Poor dogs !

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at April 20, 2007 10:11 AM

Clinton would not kill OBL but he bombed the Serbs. Maybe some courageous person should look for a money trail.

Posted by: Minority of One at April 20, 2007 10:13 AM

“Policemen then retreated to a secure point, while the Islamic extremists, in a bid to flee the scene, continued to shoot and throw hand grenades,”

......Islamic extremists true to form....choose to run away if they can when men with guns show up....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 20, 2007 10:17 AM

"again Spencer putting words into somebody's mouth."

Posted by: An American

.....Mr Spencer has never put words into anyones mouth...he does identify Islam and uses Islams own teachings to prove any point made...

.....Infidels are getting wiser on Islams faulty teachings and plan....

...Muslims hate the truth, especially when the Infidels know it.....

and

"Just doing some thinking..."

....and failing....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 20, 2007 10:26 AM

An American wrote:
"I like how the link says that "Muslims are allowed to wage war on unbelievers," however doesn't go into the details. Such war is allowed, however only in defense of the religion(usually the sentence or the clause immediately before or after the one Spencer quotes condoning violence)."

Most of us clearly understand that the Qur'an allows for jihad as a defense of Islam. The most serious problem about the qualifier of "defense", which explicitly implies a response to an "attack" on Islam, is that it is completely open-ended. The passage in the Qur'an doesn't go into any detail either about what qualifies as an appropriate need for the "defense" of Islam.

Sometimes, "defense" means resistence to occupation. Sometimes, "defense" means response to an insult, like in the case of the Danish cartoons or Theo Van Gogh, and sometimes defense merely means a mandated response to the insult of just being an unbeliever, one who lives in spritual opposition to Allah.

The lack of a proper definition of situations requiring a "defense" of Islam, renders the qualifier completely useless. Islamists attempt to use this qualifier to the quoted Qur'anic passage to fool the infidel. It is a common example of taqiyya at work. One Islamist's definition of "defense" can be entirely different from the next. Any Islamist can justify a call for the "defense" of Islam. Because of that reality, no infidel should ever take solace in the qualifier of that passage.

Posted by: awake at April 20, 2007 10:38 AM

Great going Clinton administration. I'm sure Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and even those Bosniaks who never supported Izetbegovic all thank you for your work in the Balkans. Great job helping turn Yugoslavia from a nation based on Western, democratic principles, with mutual coexistence between all ethnicities and religions, to a train wreck and magnet for Wahhabis and many other jihadists.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 20, 2007 11:01 AM

Awake is absolutely right.

Apparently, Islam is merely being "defended" when Muslims kill apostates, nuns, fishermen, police officers, doctors, nurses, priests, reporters, translaters, women, children, and the like.

Everything that is not Islam is interpretted as an attack on Islam. This narcisistic attitude is recognized as mental illness when it is embodied by a single individual. It is only because Islam is a labelled a "religion" that it is tolerated.

Our MSM is not helping matters. It is always looking for a way to blame America first.

Posted by: JSobieski at April 20, 2007 11:13 AM

MSM....what a joke...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 20, 2007 11:18 AM

Everything non-Muslim is an "offense" to Islam, this justifies ANY attack on the infidels as a de facto "defense".

(As Hitler claimed that helpless Poland "threatened" Nazi Germany in order to attack the Poles.)

Islam's convenient rationale -that the mere existence of infidels is a "threat"- excuses Islam's every "defensive" act.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 20, 2007 11:50 AM

Now why would Muslims be attacking Serbs since Muslims have Kosovo as an autonomous state with all the Islamic paradise one could ever want in self rule.

Perhaps because Islam is violent and seeks to attack others.

Posted by: Lame Cherry at April 20, 2007 12:33 PM

Hey Un American. I'm not too impressed with the restriction that jihad is to defend the religion since any sideways glance may be construed as an attack on mohametanism. So thanks for that clarification, we were well aware of it anyway, but no thanks.

nabi ZK

a nabi you should be listening to, but you won't. so for you the next world is the fire and a grevious hummiliation to boot

Posted by: zonie kafir at April 20, 2007 12:58 PM

Beat me to it there nabi profitsbeard (PBUY)

ZK

Posted by: zonie kafir at April 20, 2007 12:59 PM

We Ameriki are peaceful. We make war only to defend our way of life and our traditions. We do not seek to rule over others, only demand that they conform to our expectations exactly since this is required by our traditions. Do not focus on a few incidents of violence sometimes done by the Ameriki since these unfortunate acts of war are done by misunderstanders of the great and noble traditions of the Ameriki and in any case other peoples have also done bad things.

Know that the law of the Ameriki applies everywhere since all the world is truely a subsidiary of The Ameriki, Inc. The believers know that before the final hour will arrive all the world will come onto the payroll of The Ameriki, Inc. and none shall escape this fate except the dead. Many shall work for Google and other great companies of the Ameriki and this brings gladness to the hearts of the Ameriki, to see all the worlds children, who have agreed to conform to the rules, working happily and prospering in a high tech future, may it be pleasing to the Federal Reserve Bank, may their interest rates be stable and low.

Remember. We are so peaceful we wouldn't even hurt a fly. No. Not even one hair on a flys head would we harm. So let no nation, organization or person stand against our noble traditions lest there be a terrible retribution. So kill the rejectionists with abandon and using the most destructive technology available. There is but one fate for those who oppose the Ameriki and their tradition so open up an extra large can for the hypocrites and shirkers.

But if they say "Uncle" then let them go in peace and offer them favorable trading conditions for truely it is better for us this way.

A message of peace brought to you by

nabi ZK

*~@):~{>

Posted by: zonie kafir at April 20, 2007 1:38 PM

The one good thing the islamisses are doing is to create unity and friendship among European patriots. We are beginning to operate less along national lines and more along ideological lines.

The Left have always seen each other as allies world-wide. especially in Germany the Left hates their own country like no other.

They are the ones who are unable to reconcile with their past and they drag us all down with them. They think that they can whitewash our collective sin by branding Israel the "big bad Zionists" - thereby absolving themselves of the evil deeds of their/our forefathers.

The way to absolve would be in my mind to take serious the words: 'Never Again'. And to act accordingly.

So if Serbs and Israelis are strong and can fend for themselves we should rejoice instead of complain and undermine like the Left.

So the German Left strikes out for "palestine" and other lands to seek out the "oppressed" and the international Left.

We Patriots must seek out one another - first in Europe and in the West-at-large.

We are VALUE-based Patriots.

I find much mre kinship with a Dutchman like Geert Wilders than with a "german" traitor like Joschka Fischer - the youthful stone-thrower.

Or Schröder who should have learned to play the piano and maybe my country would have been spared much grief.

Just like Adolf should have stuck to painting. But that's a whole other story.

we have to network as easily and fluidly among ourselves as the Left are doing if we are to defeat the beast!

They are creating these "European Institutions" to circumvent the voters in all our countries alike!

We say NO to the EU - NOT to Europe.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 20, 2007 1:55 PM

"He could be like the Christian generals in Lebanon, bombing churches to blame it on Hizbollah or Palestinians ....."

Posted by: An American

.......what an odd comment....whenever churches (or schools, or hospitals, or stores, or bridges, or train stations, or buses, or automobiles, or markets, or ice cream vendors)are blown up...it is the Muslims who are the first ones to claim credit for the deed....revelling in the blood shed by innocents...

Islam is a thrill kill machine....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at April 20, 2007 3:51 PM

The violence in Islam is over ruled by open ended loop holes hidden between masses of incoherent scrappy literature that was put together from jigsaw like pieces that even when the people who did put it together could not figure out if it had a system or an order, hence why large verses are first in order and smaller ones last as some genius administrative skills was not exactly inspired. Unlike the Bible, the continued power of the Holy Spirit that God was with them in order to spread the word of the Gospels as even foretold that would happen of the pouring of the Spirit. Even so I think the better lie is the Bible if seeing from an Atheist point of view it’s more convincing and has more sources than any other book in ancient history proving it has been unchanged, only by modern language.

Posted by: jesusisthelamb at April 20, 2007 4:35 PM

An American posted: India, although ruled by Muslim rulers for quite some time, is still 80 percent Hindu..

This is true only of one considers present day India. Really, we must consider as well what are now Pakistan and Bangladesh, then the figure of Hindus is around 60%. To achieve the 80% of Hindus in India, India had to be partioned.

Posted by: DP111 at April 20, 2007 5:03 PM

Great article here

The inconvenient Serbs by Spengler

The Bill Clinton administration, in this writer's considered view, provoked NATO's 1999 bombing war against Serbia with malice of forethought, as a gesture to the Muslim world. The United States in effect was willing to bomb Christians in order to protect Muslims, in this case the Albanian Kosovo majority whom it accused the Serbs of mistreating. That is precisely what the Democrats say. In a January 3 article in the Financial Times, Democratic Senator Joseph Biden contended that Kosovo independence would constitute a "victory for Muslim democracy", and "a much-need example of US-Muslim partnership".

Contrary to American propaganda at the time, no massacres had occurred; the Serbs had shot a few thousand Muslim militants in their efforts to pacify the province. Clinton, then secretary of state Madeleine Albright and UN ambassador Richard Holbrooke deluded themselves that they could cash in the chips earned in Kosovo at the negotiating table in the Middle East. The neo-conservatives cheered the Clinton bombing campaign, believing perhaps that any American show of force was better than no show of force.

Once again Washington's attention is directed toward the Middle East. Washington proposes to sacrifice the remaining Christians in Kosovo in order to earn Muslim support. Serbia has earned little sympathy; its brutality against Bosnian Muslims during the 1990s left an image of Serbian barbarity etched on the mind of the Western public.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ID17Ak01.html

Posted by: DP111 at April 20, 2007 5:45 PM

What total morons Bill Clinton (Yale, Oxford) and General Wesley Clark (West Point, Oxford) are.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at April 20, 2007 5:54 PM

The US, as usual will sacrifice Serbia, a Christian country, to gain some credibilty with Muslims.And as before, no gratitude or credibility will be gained. All that will happen is yet another region, and this time in Europe, will become a haven for Jihadis to attack the West.

Posted by: DP111 at April 20, 2007 6:19 PM

DP111 you are absolutely right, the Serbs are expendable according to US policy makers. Eastern Christians will bear the brunt as usual so that we may appease the Muslims in the mid east.

Muslims in turn will continue their aggression against west, and will use slogans like "we do this as payback for what the Americans did to us in Kosovo and Bosnia".

It's only a matter of time before we hear those exact words, as a matter of fact I've already heard on many occasions Bosnia referred to. I find that funny because in Bosnia the US assisted the Muslims on every level.

Posted by: The fanatic at April 20, 2007 7:54 PM

Here we can just see how the instability and radical islam is being spread from Kosovo where Saudi Arabia invested millions in building Wahhabi mosques.I can imagine how it would all look if that province would become an independent state.
Islamo-fascist regime would desecrate and burn ancient christian monasteries,the rest of christian Serbs would be expeled and the new seed of evil would be planted in the heart of Europe.
I also found one great article on one portal, think you should all read it.Makes you think.

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/mb/056.shtml

and if you live in America you can help and here are the instructions:
http://www.serbianna.com/activism/s135.shtml

Posted by: Voice at April 20, 2007 8:04 PM

What I find interesting in this story, and in another wire story I just read about Iraq, is that the Moslems are fighting each other. We are told that "if we don't fight them over there, we will have to fight them over here." Looks like if we do nothing, we might just have to hold the coats. Just like in Palestine. As soon as there isn't a shooting war with Israel they turn on each other.

Posted by: Greg McClellan at April 20, 2007 8:21 PM

God Bless the Serbs...true vanguards agains the worst kind of Islam.

Posted by: ujaklija at April 20, 2007 8:24 PM

zonie kafir-

A nabi (prophet) profit?

(Courtesy of the Department of Redundancy Department?)

My prophecy for Islam is:

Those who squash their own intelligence to conform to an earlier, stupider level of intelligence (7th century) are not intelligent, and must, ultimately FAIL.

The philosopher A.N. Whitehead called it:

"The inherent instability of evil."

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 20, 2007 9:10 PM

Weeelll! We have a serious problem on our hands.

We must gird our loins and struggle mightily.

Posted by: allat at April 20, 2007 10:24 PM

Greg McCllelan wrote:
"What I find interesting in this story, and in another wire story I just read about Iraq, is that the Moslems are fighting each other."

Welcome to the site, Greg. Your point of interest has been well documentd by the esteemed Hugh Fitzgerald for several years now, the basic premise being that there is a historical rift betwwen the different sects of Islam, most notably, Sunni vs. Shia, and how that rift can be exploited to favor western, non-Islamic societies and culture, presently.

At the top of the main page there is a link to postings by Hugh Fitzgerald. Simply click on that and choose from the multitude of his postings on Iraq. One or all will most certainly answer almost all or your questions in that regard.

Posted by: awake at April 20, 2007 11:14 PM

Christian demonstrators in america and elsewhere always clash with police. 2 months ago Christian swedish squatters clashed with police, what's the big deal?

Posted by: crusadertothecore at April 20, 2007 11:54 PM

Troll alert.

Posted by: butterfly at April 20, 2007 11:59 PM

A couple of years ago, the Serbian military intelligence warned of the presence of these nuts in Rascia (SW Serbia, straddling the border between Serbia and Montenegro) but nobody listened.

The military was attacked by the "human rights" (ironically, U.S.-funded) NGOs for "spreading hate" just because the officer in charge said what he knew was true: the Wahhabis are infiltrating the area and are setting up shop.

Anyway, B92 has a feature section on the whole mess: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=119

Posted by: Flavius Constantin at April 21, 2007 12:42 AM

This is exactly how it started in Kosovo.

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ranta.htm

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at April 21, 2007 5:15 PM

1992. - Bosnian muslim leaders (supported by Saudis&Co.) announced jihad in Bosnia
1993. - Clinton's first action as president was to forge muslim-Croat alliance in Bosnia against Serbs
1995. - US led forces assisted in 3 offensives which helped cleansing of Serbs in all Croatia and parts of Bosnia
1995. - peace deal was signed, which ended war in Bosnia, ever since muslims are trying very hard to renegotiate the existance of Serbian entity in Bosnia and to create unitary muslim dominated state, and receive great support from Western officials
1996. - US started to logisticly and matterialy support KLA (albanian terrorist army) in Kosovo
1998. - KLA actions escalate (killings of women, children and civilians), and bring crackdown of serbian security forces (as they hoped they would)
1999. - US starts (illegal) bombing campain against Serbia after blackmailing "negotiations" in France, and uses KLA as ally force on the ground (Albright removed KLA from the list of terrorist organisations)
1999. - war ended, Serbs left the province (250.000 civilians left with Army, their property was destroyed and pillaged in matter of days), according to UNSC Resolution no. 1244, which defined Kosovo as autonomous province of Serbia under UN temporary rule, hence Albanians were promised a state by some State Department officials
2001. - 9/11 eyeopening expirience for the US (undesputed ties of 9/11 terrorists with region of Balkans)
2004. - despite great effort of fully corrupted UN mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) to appease local independance aspirations (promoted by local criminal super cartels, which are de facto in control of the province), in outburst of Albanian fundamentalist violence Serbs were yet again killed, expeled, more homes and churches were destroyed
2005. - 7/7 eyeopening expirience for the UK (AGAIN undesputed ties of 7/7 terrorists with region of Balkans)
2004.-2007. - US is (again against entire existing international law on this matter) promoting swift solution on Kosovo status, which would grant Albanians a new state in Balkans, next to Albania

This short timetable is here only to ilustrate the futility of this policy.

I can just hope that democracy will prevail in Western countries, and that public debate will be opened on this shameful issue.

We don't have right to let this be.

Posted by: WallsofByzant at April 22, 2007 9:55 AM