The EU, which is at least in part responsible for the resurgence of Islamist power in Turkey, aows that it still doesn't get what is going on:

"The European Union Saturday called on Turkey's military to stay out of politics.

The EU expansion affairs commissioner, Olli Rehn, said the election is a test case for the Turkish military's respect for democracy."

Having said that, there are a lot of American commentators who seem to believe that Gul is a jolly good fellow and firm believer in secularism. Of course, his wife would not be allowed in a government building because she wears the hijab, which may cause some inconvenience for a president.

Posted by: wallyUK at April 28, 2007 7:55 PM

'aows' above should read 'shows', sorry.

Posted by: wallyUK at April 28, 2007 7:56 PM

Ordinarily I upon military coups, but like so many things, they can sometimes be the lesser of two evils.

Posted by: IAmFree at April 28, 2007 8:04 PM

The junta savior of nations and peoples and the threat to all socialists and communists, unless of course it is Gen Joe Stalin or the butcher Mao doing the weeding out in the multi millions.

Central and South America benefitted greatly from right wing juntas. Chile is Chile today due to this reforms the junta put in place and turned the gleaned nation back to the people.

This might be the best thing in the Middle East messages that the military will step in and clean out the problems instead of being forced to start wars to keep Islamocommunists and Islamofascists in power.
Is worth a try as thug rule is not doing anything but breeding more terrorists and anti Jew and western teachings.

Posted by: Lame Cherry at April 28, 2007 8:17 PM

"Central and South America benefitted greatly from right wing juntas. Chile is Chile today due to this reforms the junta put in place and turned the gleaned nation back to the people."

Central and South America benefitted greatly from right wing juntas....

::recovers froma 20 minute stupor induced by such rediculous statements::

You really are blinded by your ideology my friend. Can we also say the Venezuela is Venezuela today because of the right wing junta, or Columbia, or Argentina, or Paraguay??... these aren't exactly bastions of well balanced societies, are they???

Please! Stop with this nonsense! What are you going to tell us next? That Iran and Osama bin Laden already have nuclear warheads??? Oh wait... you already said that...

Anyways... back to Turkey...

You gotta love Turkey. My first response when I heard of the military threats was that this is too comical. You couldn't write a better script.

How can you not love this scenario???

Military to Government: Islamize and we'll exercize!!!!

Government and EU and USA to Military: But for the love of children, what about democracy? What about democracy???

LMAO!!! As I said before, how can you not love Turkey?

Posted by: ThinkForYourself at April 28, 2007 8:47 PM

Re: "The army, which has ousted four governments in the past 50 years, expressed concern in its statement late on Friday over the election. It said it was ready to act in defense of the secularist system separating religion and politics".

Maybe Karen Armstrong will leave her institutional mental habits and come into the real world for a brief period to negotiate an understanding on this matter. Maybe she will confront the rough-and-tumble world of reality where criticism and debate is not feared by those who are sure of themselves.

Posted by: Frank at April 28, 2007 8:52 PM

lets be clear about just how "on the brink" we are. the article ends as follows: "Few are predicting another military coup in Turkey, where economic growth is robust and Erdogan's government popular, but the army statement has raised the stakes in the battle of wills."

the important phrase for the long term may be that "Erogan's government [is] popular."

Posted by: StillBreathing at April 28, 2007 9:56 PM

“From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual.”

Federalist 10; Madison http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed10.htm

Madison goes on to argue that you can mitigate this problem with a larger mass of people, electing representatives, because there would be talented people selected by the masses to represent them (now think of last night's Presidential debate). The talent would moderate the ‘mischiefs of faction’. The system worked wonderfully when voters were passed through the landowner screen.

The argument falls apart in an Islamic State as Islam drives out Infidels and the brilliant mechanisms that Mohammed put in place radicalize the population once a majority is achieved. Madison’s ‘weaker party’ is secularism and it is inevitably sacrificed in a democracy.

Madison’s argument will fall apart here too in the next twenty years as the American ‘weaker party’ is the 10% of the Country that pay 66% of the taxes. The Democratic Party will move to stand for one thing; making good on unachievable social program promises. They will try to sacrifice the earners, who will just move somewhere else. When the money runs out, we’ll get our very own military government.

People will be taught President Bush’s 2nd Inaugural Speech for millennia going forward. Rant over.

Posted by: pez at April 28, 2007 10:04 PM

Kemalism on the brink. (?)

"Turkish government slams army intervention threat." (?)

Could this be a sign that it is a perfect time to exploit the sectarian divisions in Iraq?

Posted by: justamomof4 at April 28, 2007 10:14 PM

In defense of Lame Cherry:

I had the opportunity to be present at a Central American election last year. It was deeply inspiring. A large percentage of the population was wearing tee-shirts, some red and some blue, depending on party affiliation. The percentage of voters that went to the polls exceeded the percentages in the US by a significant amount. I was thoroughly impressed by the political mechanisms of this Country and was wondering what we were doing wrong at home.

Then I found out about the election packages. You get a tee shirt, a button, and have to promise to vote for a particular party. People are very spiritual down there and a promise usually really is a promise. The going rate used to be US$50, but it’s now pushing US$100 as there are oil reserves coming on line and there is more at stake.

For whatever it’s worth, there seems to be less corruption. At least the politicians are honest about things.

Posted by: pez at April 28, 2007 10:21 PM

"In defense of Lame Cherry:"

Right. In Chile, as he said, and this certain Central American country things might be great, I wouldn't be surprised in the least... but the examples I point out, Columbia has been a mess for YEARS, a four decades old insurgency by leftist rebles... and in Venezuela, one of the highest murder rates in the world exist. It's not peachy keen with uniformity across the Latin American world.

I don't doubt that things are going well in certain areas of central/south America. What I do doubt is that the Central and South America have "benefitted greatlty" from these right wing military dictatorships, or juntas, as Lame Cherry calls them.

If anything, it would seem that these areas of Central and South America only really started to benefit once the juntas were GONE!

Posted by: ThinkForYourself at April 28, 2007 10:30 PM

Warren Zevon was right. Lawyers, guns, and money always seem to be the common denominators no matter where you go. Islam is interesting because it may make the lawyers disappear for a while.

Posted by: pez at April 28, 2007 10:57 PM

Kemalism out, Islamo-fascism in.

More about Turkey and the tortured and murdered Christians last week:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/29/turkey-on-the-brink/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 28, 2007 11:24 PM

"The EU expansion affairs commissioner, Olli Rehn, said the election is a test case for the Turkish military's respect for democracy."

Yes, and when the Turkisk military steps in, it'll prove their respect for democracy.

An Islamic government is hardly a democratic government.

This only goes to prove how little value a Muslim population puts on democracy. It also goes to show just how much of a chance democracy has in Iraq.

Posted by: rational at April 28, 2007 11:27 PM

all islamic countries are ruled by the military or some type of military junta.

how can the socialist EU now justify wanting to allow Turkey into the EU?

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at April 28, 2007 11:33 PM

Funny, I was just reading a rare book about the three Turkish brigades who fought in the Korean War, working closely with the Americans. It was written by one of their main officers. All acquitted themselves admirably alongside the American troops.

One of the brigades, confronting fierce resistance from a hill on the Han River, led a victorious fixed bayonet charge.

This was a ferocious kind of warfare unseen in over a generation. The American officers were incredulous and sent men to investigate.

They found over 900 bayoneted commies! Not the sort of Turks to blow themselves up in ice cream parlors and call it martyrdom. Who knows? Maybe some of the spirit lives on?

Posted by: poetcomic1 at April 28, 2007 11:38 PM

This would only delay the inevitable.

Or disguise the true Islamist core of the coutry behind a pseudo-"secular" military.

Let Turkey become the jihadist state that it longs for.

And let the Turks learn the hard way, again, what Ataturk tried to teach them once:

Islam sucks.

No false fixes.

You have to go through the full torments of the pedophile's dismal "religion" before you finally vomit it out competely. And are cured of it.

The Turks want this lunacy, let them have it all the way.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 28, 2007 11:41 PM

Red hot news:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/29/al-jizzeera-bolt-carlton-muhammed-dawoud-hicks-madness/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 28, 2007 11:42 PM

I'm surprised he's not already johnny pilger` & his greenleft.orgs posterboy yet. Or am I late? lol

Posted by: jcom972 at April 29, 2007 12:13 AM

True, poetcomic1:

"This was a ferocious kind of warfare unseen in over a generation. The American officers were incredulous and sent men to investigate.

They found over 900 bayoneted commies! Not the sort of Turks to blow themselves up in ice cream parlors and call it martyrdom. Who knows? Maybe some of the spirit lives on?"

The Greeks too, in the Korean War, used the bayonet charge. As you said, forocious stuff indeed.

Posted by: ewha1 at April 29, 2007 12:27 AM

how can the socialist EU now justify wanting to allow Turkey into the EU?
Posted by: leonthepigfarmer

They can't. Bush is pushing on the one side and the leftygreengoodpeople are pushing on the other.

Anyone who hints to ask how this benefits EUROPE is a Nazi, a Racist and of course a Homophobe.

Go figure.

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 29, 2007 2:06 AM

how can the socialist EU now justify wanting to allow Turkey into the EU?
Posted by: leonthepigfarmer

Oh and all of our politician-in-charge are afraid to be labeled something or other by Erdogan the Turk, who is the biggest racist of them all.

Under his watchg Christians are being tortured and disemboweled in the vilest forms of murder.

Yet the band plays on..

We need a CRUSADE at the ballot box!!!!!!!!!

VIVE LA RESISTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at April 29, 2007 2:08 AM

I have been a avid daily reader of this website since it began. I have rarely if ever spoken.I wish to do so now.I have collected just about all the books of Daniel Pipes ( MY Hero), Robert Spencer ( Gods gift to Academic discourse of Islam) and lets NOT forget Hugh....and I must admit at times I get so angry and enraged at the seeming dhimmitude of majority of australian people whom are a majority of apathetic unaware passive majority of people, not interested in learning what the threat of islam and what it teaches, and the pathetic inaction of not just our governments and other world governments as well.The fact is australia will no doubt become islamic with the absolute moronic blissitude of australians not intereted in learning what we really are facing at the peril of islamic invasion by migration...islamisation in our community centres, swimming pools, voting in of islamic local councillors, mayors,banning of all pork products at Joondalup and Wanneroo and Stirling Shire Councils ( no more ham sandwiches sorry we dont wanna upset the muslims), islamic so called advisory bodies to State premiers and Police, Governements and Military...and infiltration of teaching about islam in catholic schools ( The principal Dr Curry of Mercy Collge in Mirrabooka West Australia,insists all students learn about islam and he teaches islam is peace and reads and knows everything about islam from the book a dummies guide to islam.....Jesus Christ help us!!!
As a very informed person whom volunteered to take the classes in teaching the truth about islam to the kids, I was refused as I am not a islamist and neither am I a qualified teacher like him...since when is a high degree of knowledge about islam need you to be a mooslime???
Every single state primary school and high school here have to each about islam as a positive peaceful abrahamic religion...in all state schools -is horrific but subtle process which is continuing every day here in West Australia...
I believe in "think global act local" where protest peacefully is about-Each and every time I went out with jihadwatch stickers on our cars ( outlaw shariah law and defeat jihad) I was stopped by police and told to remove the stickers immediately as I was likely to be charged with inciting of hate type legislation provisions....a mosque is but 5 minutes from my home and muslims have been buying up huge numbers of houses in our neighbourhood, forcing non muslims to get out with the increase in violence and burglaries etc.... I can see that here in western australia islam is winning where our premier of wester australia is photographed smiling with young pretty hejab dressed little girls at teh islamic school here...political insantiy at its finest...I was refused an appointment to see our prenier or the MP here when I asked to come to talk to them about what they knew about islam, and to explain to them what i knew about islam.
History has taught that when religion is enmeshed within a government control over the people in any land, excess corruption and tyranny follow ( remember the witches burnings, the Inquisitions, the slaughter of the Jews in Europe in Spain, Uk and other areas of Europe and recent genocide in Ww2 in Europe with much of europe assisting in
the mass murder of the Jewish people).
In Australia Preachers of Christianity are jailed for exposing the truth of the reality of islamic teachings.When I try to organise some public lectures on islam I am refused as far as a legitimate venue they cite insurance and illegality of teachings about islam... .

At University of Western Australia where I am a student, the pro Palestinian, pro islamic, anti Jewish teaching on campus by so called experts of middle east on staff..is nothing short of shameful and supports the plo and acts of terrorism calling it a struggle against occupiers...

when I enquired how can I apply to give a talk on Islamic teachings ( and over time...protested the bias of the lectures on middle eastern politics, and revisionist interpretations of islamic wars and middle east history and also protested in the allowing on campus of islamic prayer rooms after hours where there is no supervision by non muslim people as to what they are doing and the fact that women are wearing burkhas on campus, men in islamic dress rudely stare at non veiled women in library etc, security staff are not allowed to enter the prayer rooms when muslims are there,) and invite some people to campus to teach what the truth and reality is like about islam I was also told on telepone if you think we will support that sort of hate speak you are wrong...and also told me if I did teach or give talks about the truth of islamic teachings my student position would likely be terminated permanently and on my student record appropriate warnings given to other potential university.
When I enquired with local council halls and various other places whether I could give public talks on the truth of islamic teachings I was told to "piss off" bluntly ...and told never they would allow that sort of thing.
I think that we are losing the battle against political correctness and leftist mentality and islamic brainwashing adn propaganda already.
I weep for the future of women in Australia with governements letting unsupervised imams teach in australia how to make bombs and how to choose the places to become terrorists bombers , and how to make bomb vests etc...they allow citizenship and residency to islamists whom teach and preach hate against our country, our constitution,our women " uncovered meat (aka al hjillaly and most other imams in australia believe it also) for the may whom will be oppressed in our own life time Australia will assuredly become Islamic.With Indonesian incursions here all the time...malaysian hate of all things aussie, and our noble moronic twat of a pm forcing us all to hand in our uns, we have a situation where we are undefendable and muslims will take over and there will not be one thing we can do to stop any sort of mass genocide or mass murder or terrorists attacks on unarmed civilians here.
Sincerely I despair and nothing can be done to stop it unfortunately, God knows I have tried and been stopped every single stop of the way.Australia will no doubt become lost to islam. Left wingers will ensure that.
Kelly Kuffir.

Posted by: KellyKuffirOz at April 29, 2007 6:46 AM

either Turkey is cooked, if the islamist take over, the EU wont take them in, and if the military take over to control the islamist, the EU wont take them in. either way boys your cooked.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at April 29, 2007 6:49 AM

...The EU, which is at least in part responsible for the resurgence of Islamist power in Turkey, aows that it still doesn't get what is going on:
(from a post above)..

in part responsible ?? Come now! you are too modest.

...or other by Erdogan the Turk, who is the biggest racist of them all.
Under his watchg Christians are being tortured and disemboweled in the vilest forms of murder.
(from a post above)..

Good morning after supper! The murderers of the Christians come from the same sources of the population as the electorate who carried erdogan to power.

..how can the socialist EU now justify wanting to allow Turkey into the EU?
Posted by: leonthepigfarmer

Turkey will never be admitted into the EU, point. EU is already infested with muslims so they are not that dumb to take in a muslim country anymore. What they do is simply Eurabian taqiyya, nothing else. Follow Sarkozy and Merkel and you will find the light!

...Or disguise the true Islamist core of the country behind a pseudo-"secular" military.
(from a post above)..

Yet, it is this "pseudo-secular" army that you so plainly despise in your post which could keep the islamists in check for nearly 60 years!.

Not the US, nor the EU governments which have been kissing Saudi Asses for centuries.

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt... natural US allies.. Yet it is from these countries that the jihadist threat is coming from..

And Iran? Once a staunch ally at time of Pahlavi?

The US either predicted the islamic revolution or simply ignored it.. And now see the consequences..

There can not be fiddling using islamist card!

Beware, you might get yourself...burned..or buried..

Posted by: Icarus_Project at April 29, 2007 7:22 AM

Offtopic; but here are some words of encouragement for kellykuffiroz:
Don't despair. Are you Christian? Jewish? Non-religious? You could try contacting Dr Mark Durie, or Bishop Mark Burton of the Perth Anglican diocese. Write to Cardinal George Pell, Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, and encourage him - he has Islam's number. Hell, write to Pope Benedict and tell him we'd all love a no-punches-pulled encyclical on Islam.

If you're Jewish - just keep on patiently speaking of these things in the synagogue and among your family (there's Dr Bostom's new book about Islamic anti-Semitism, very scarey).

If you're Christian/ semi-Christian, try out a few of your local churches - we're not ALL dhimmi yet. I belong to a standard Australian suburban church . Our parish priest is sympathetic. Another parishioner is on-side. I edit the parish paper on a pretty free rein - I just put into it a mini-essay that 'boiled down' the essentials as gleaned from my re-readings of the Koran, Mr Spencer's and Bat Ye'or's invaluable writings, Jacques Ellul on jihad (preface to Bat Ye'or). Our parish has about 200 adults, so everybody just got taught 'the basics' about Islam and may well share it with friends and family. In July our priest has organised for another priest to come give a talk - I've spoken to the guy concerned and he's a Spencer fan. I have been lending around my copy of the Koran - which I have marked and annotated - and will be lending around my copy of the 'Myth of Islamic Tolerance' and 'PIG to Islam and the Crusades'.

Try donating Bat Ye'or's books to the university library or city council library or the library of your old high school.

If there's a Jewish student group on campus, check them out - unless they're self-hating leftists, if you're Jewish, join them; if you're not Jewish, befriend them, offer love and support, ask them if you can wear a Star of David in solidarity (but take self-defence lessons first in case it makes you a target). Same thing goes for any Jewish faculty members - find out who they are, if they're not dhimmis/ self-haters, find out how you can support and encourage them. For instance - do the Jews on campus hold a Shoah Memorial Day? - if so, get involved.

If you're an atheist/ agnostic, make sure the students in the relevant group hear about Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Infidel", and the Law of Apostasy in Islam - point them to Ibn Warraq "Why I am not a Muslim" and to Ali Sina. Hirsi Ali and Oriana Fallaci are good ones for the feminists and the atheists, too.

There must surely be at least ONE other person on campus who shares your concerns ...sooner or later you'll find them.

Do write a letter to your State and Federal Members of Parliament. I am writing to mine. Tell them that your vote will be determined by how resolute they are in opposing jihad and sharia.

Join a karate/ judo/ kung fu club or even sign up for the Army Reserves.

And if you're a Catholic, pray the rosary. If you're Orthodox or Anglican, say the Trishagion: "Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal, Have mercy on us". If you're Jewish read the Psalms and recite the Shema Yisroel. If you're not a believer - perhaps read Ion Idriess' The Desert Column (Aussie war diaries from W W I), or J S Manifold's poem 'The Tomb of Lt. John Learmonth AIF', or J K Rowling, "The Order of the Phoenix".

Good luck and godspeed.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 29, 2007 9:27 PM

Hey, Kelly Kuffir - here's a shout-out to Australia! Are things really that bad? From here in America, it seems that our staunchest allies in the world are Israel and Australia. I'm shocked to hear your PM John Howard described in such an unflattering way (though less so, as I remember President Bush's insistence that Islam is a religion of peace).

I was going to write a lot of suggestions, but dumbledoresarmy just wrote a lovely message. Still, there are lots of great resources out there. You mentioned the Muslim war against Israel, whose current phase began in 1920. Check out www.standwithus.com - they have lots of great downloads when you click on "Flyers" on the homepage.

I remember the advice of Harvard professor Ruth Wisse - "Never defend!", which the West constantly ignores. We absolutely must make the discussion always about jihad and shari'a, shari'a and jihad, the fate of Zoroastrians and Baha'i in Iran, 2 million in southern Sudan, 1 million Armenians in Turkey, 4.5-80 million Hindus, 300 at a schoolhouse in Beslan, Buddhist monks in Thailand, Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia, Berbers, Tuareg, Kurds, Assyrians, Chaldeans, female genital mutilation, disenfranchisement, illiteracy, gang rape, honor killing.

Did I mention the president of the college where I teach said that we won't just tolerate differences, we're going to accentuate them? Oy vey! Is multiculturalism working well in Belgium, Canada, Iraq, Lebanon or Sudan?

Good luck down under! I'd like to think that Aussies are as stubborn as Yanks. Of course, given our recent steps towards dhimmitude in America, that's not much of a compliment...

One more word to the poster who suggested letting Turkey try shari'a for a while until they get sick of it - yes, that makes sense in theory, but - look at Iran. They're sick of the mullahs, but they're stuck with them, now. It's 1 man, 1 vote, 1 time. Islam is a one-way street. We can't let them take over. I guess that makes me an Islamophobe...

Posted by: Surak at April 29, 2007 9:53 PM