"But Pakistani intelligence agents cannot follow everyone."

...they don't arrest many either.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 3, 2007 3:20 PM

2000 suspects identified. So, how many remain unidentified? 10,000 jihadis could do a lot of killing.

Posted by: Minority of One at May 3, 2007 3:20 PM

And how much is this surveillance costing the taxpayer? We should take it out of the UK budget for madrassas (no I'm not joking) in Pakistan that Tony Blair has paid for in the hope they might be nice to us.

Posted by: Celsius at May 3, 2007 3:29 PM

"More than 400,000 Britons each year go to Pakistan on innocent family visits."

....looks like 400,000 suspects...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 3, 2007 3:32 PM

400,001 if you include Naseem....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 3, 2007 3:33 PM

What part of:

1. Stop further Islamic immigration now. No more. No more grandmas, no more multiple wives. No more child-brides. End of story.

2. Close down known terrorist-supporting mosques/madrassas (and we know they know which ones)

3. Close down all Islamic schools

4. Deport all known Islamic undesirables with foreign nationality.

...does this Government not seem to be able to grasp?

Posted by: Un:dhimmi at May 3, 2007 3:37 PM

No wonder the Queen and Price Phillip came here to America today. I don't blame them.

Posted by: auntbea at May 3, 2007 3:47 PM

2000 is the tip of the iceberg. Since all muslims are obligated to support and participate in jihad, there are millions. The ones not active now , are the reserves.
In America this: from, worldnetdaily...

A Florida man filed a lawsuit to prevent construction of a mosque in his neighborhood, claiming it "presents a substantial harm to the well-being, safety and health" of his community.
Rodney Wright named in his complaint the Islamic Center of South Florida, the South Florida office of the Council on American Islamic Relations, or CAIR, and its national office.

Also from the same article...The lawsuit, "provides a roadmap for other concerned citizens around the nation to legally prevent radical Islam from posing a security threat in their local communities."

So there you go...where there is a will, there is a way...there are no mosques here yet, only liberals living in the woods, in tents, old cars and busses. I bet these people would love to have a mosque in the area, especially in the winter when they want to get warm. A place to go and hang out. If the mosque will provide free food, they might even convert. If Allah provides better than the welfare dept, conversion is immenent.
None of this will happen, if I find out about a pending mosqe. I will save thes liberals from themselves, and rob Allah of cannon fodder at the same time, by filing my own lawsuit, based on the above formula...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 3, 2007 3:48 PM

Did our British friends vote today?

It can no longer be 'business as usual'

Posted by: npabga at May 3, 2007 3:50 PM

They are making a major mistake. Instead of drooling over a fan club of 2000 known terrorists, they should be rounding them and/or shooting them. While they are fiddling - the bad guys are gaining. It is irresponsible to know of these people and not acting on them. Screw the possible intelligence. They know what they are up to and their ultimate goals. It is time to start terrorizing the terrorists. Make it unhealthy for them to show up ANYWHERE. If gitmo has proven anything - it is the utter waste of resources to remove live bodies from the battle field.

Posted by: infidel! at May 3, 2007 3:55 PM

In a macabre sort of Benny Hill way this is amusing.

Here you have the pompous elite left wing British who demanded the natives have their own nation states before they had reformed from babarianism and what do you get?

South Africa a communist regime exporting nuclear technology and hacking up white people.
Zimbabwe dumping Rhodesia as a name and in doing so running all the white people off, stealing all they have and Mugabe beating the bajesus out of all non communists.
Then comes good ole Pakistan who they imported slave labor into England and what do they get?
Children trying to eat dear olde mum and pop.

What is amusing about this is in a war now, I would bet Pakistan would kick England's royal tush, including the veddy nuclear Dr. Khan bombs.

The liberals just can't figure it out now the natives were shown love and all thy want to do is lop off the upstairs owners heads.
Islam is not saintly religion, but time and again all this garbage America is facing is due to those European socialists mucking it up big time.

Oh and for an alert to MI 5, buddy you got at least 200,000 veddy angry Muslim males ready to go phroooar in downtown London. Just wait till bin Laden scorches one of your cities and the woolies come crawling out that you think are "British" now.

Gee and you disarmed all your citizens of guns, no handguns, no rifles and no shotguns, so all those Islamists who are armed can have a merry olde time.

Apparently only God, Cromwell and Pitt were the reason the English ever amounted to roll Britania and the rest just lived of the bangers and mash.

Posted by: Lame Cherry at May 3, 2007 3:57 PM

More than 400,000 Britons each year go to Pakistan on innocent family visits.

Britain should regard that as 1-way ticket of immigration, renouncing British nationality with no right of return.

Problem solved

Posted by: UK Infidel Lover at May 3, 2007 3:58 PM

Lame by name ....etc. etc.

Er, really...could you be any more infantile and ill-informed?

Posted by: Un:dhimmi at May 3, 2007 4:13 PM

2,000 terror suspects who want to make this world a better place -- and they will -- once they blow themselves up. May they get their death wish, if that's what they want; but without a SINGLE casualty.

2,000 dead -- allah is on a feeding frenzy.

Posted by: champ at May 3, 2007 4:13 PM

Think of the cost. What does it cost to monitor one person? Several people must watch someone if they are engaged in round-the-clock surveillance so as never to let that person out of their sight or out of sight of those watching wherever they may be. Is it now 10,000 English men and women who are engaged in this? How many billions are being spent, on this and on the guards placed in airports, Underground stations, bus stations, train stations, churches, synagogues, Hindu temples, obviously Christian and Jewish institutions such as schools, at government office buildings, for extra security on those trains and buses and planes, or in customs, or in the visa and passport checking services? How many people must guard fertilizer supplies, dynamite used at construction sites, and so on -- with far greater vigilance and worry than ever before?

And how many non-Muslims who have spoken out, or written, must be guarded --- for if they are not guarded, then others will be afraid to speak? How many people must now watch for acts of vandalism against public statuary, or paintings in the National Gallery, or anything at all that might offend, that could offend, that does offend, true Believers in Islam?

Shall we go on? What about the studying of certain subjects in schools, including not only the Holocaust and indeed the entire history of the Jews, but the history of the English Bible, the history of the English Church, and indeed of all of Christianity, without a knowledge of which neither English history nor English literature can be understood?

I will repeat it, again here, and everywhere:

The large-scale presence of Muslims in the lands of the Infidels has created a situation, for both the indigenous Infidels and for non-Muslim immigrants (Hindus, Chinese, Vietnamese Buddhists, Caribeean and black African Christians) that is more unpleasant, unsettled, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without such a large-scale presence.

And this is now. Imagine in ten or twenty years. Imagine only the threats to the armories of our fellow allies in NATO. Imagine the most scandalously appeasing of politicians, undoing attempts by the Infidels merely to speak openly about Islam, and to take measures, foreign and domestic, to defend their own interests under assault from all the weapons of Jihad, in their desire to curry favor with Muslim voters -- who will vote as a bloc, to promote Islam and Muslims.

It is not too late. But people have to wake up. They can't keep up the pretense. Not at any level -- least of all at the highest levels of the government, where officially-sanctioned correctness, even or perhaps especially in the Pentagon, appears to be the grim and crazed rule.

Posted by: Hugh at May 3, 2007 4:17 PM

phroooar in downtown London

German Christians and Jews got along well on a personal level up to the 1940s. So did Germans and Poles. So did Tutsis and Hutus. Add your own. The human genome is the same and history shows that behavior can change very quickly.

This time there is Islam, as well as a racial element. I’m betting Lame Cherry’s 200,000 number is probably about right.

O/T Maine Hamsteak update: No hate crime. The kid had to say he’s sorry and got a suspension.

Posted by: pez at May 3, 2007 4:29 PM

lame cherry

"Gee and you disarmed all your citizens of guns, no handguns, no rifles and no shotguns, so all those Islamists who are armed can have a merry olde time."

gee lame cherry i wonder where these british got their weapons from?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6618371.stm

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at May 3, 2007 4:36 PM

The authorities that be have found a new trick to curtail visitors from pakistan. I read it in one of the Airlines magazines that EU airline safety people have refused safety cerificates to almost all the PIA (pakistan airline)fleet, so they cannot fly anywhere in EU.

Now all they have to do is have the guts to ban all pakistanis from entering EU.

If countries in Europe are having so much trouble containing their reletively small muslim population, one can ony imagine how horribly expensive and mind numbingly depressing it must be for the Indians who have to live cheek by jowl with over 150 million of them! This, after giving away almost a quarter of thier land to these invaders, who not content with that are still killing for more territory.

If anybody still thinks that islam can be tamed by buttering up to muslims, look at India, who after centuries of sucking up to the barbarians, are still paying the price with their lives for being welcoming and nice to them.

Posted by: Hermit at May 3, 2007 4:40 PM

Assalamau Laikum all,

exsgtbrown...I know you like to play...but I don't have a jihadi bone in my body...I am a dawaist ...helping the kaffur understand his future and that of his childerns....holding their hand and leading them to the gentle light of mild sharia.

I like to try and bring peoples on board like I have formed a bond with my kaffur sister champ....this is a bond that cannot be broken...one day she asked about my family...she sounded like a genunie friend...pretty good for a kaffur...and thus she is now my sister....I hope that one day I can pass onto her the spirit of Islam that roams in me.

Posted by: Naseem at May 3, 2007 4:45 PM

They are making a major mistake. Instead of drooling over a fan club of 2000 known terrorists, they should be rounding them and/or shooting them. While they are fiddling - the bad guys are gaining. It is irresponsible to know of these people and not acting on them. Screw the possible intelligence. They know what they are up to and their ultimate goals. It is time to start terrorizing the terrorists. Make it unhealthy for them to show up ANYWHERE. If gitmo has proven anything - it is the utter waste of resources to remove live bodies from the battle field.

Posted by: infidel!

Why 'watch' them in the general population if you know which 2,000 to watch? Is MI5 going to watch them and listen to them talk about 'jihad' and take notes again, like they did in the year before 7/7, then take notes after the bombing like they did on 7/8?

Why not 'watch' them on some exile island? Doesn't that make better sense?

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at May 3, 2007 4:48 PM

Sick! Blind! Unreal!

Posted by: fedupinamerica at May 3, 2007 4:49 PM

Gosh there's gotta be 2,000 just in the Finsbury Park Mosque!

I posted this earlier....the government largesse to a particular community ought to be reduced by the amt of money spent on surveillance of said community. Our governments need to stop the payments to groups who have the desire and motivation to bring down our governments!

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at May 3, 2007 4:51 PM

I know where the 5th column in the US is getting theirs from...same source as the islamofascists`:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/07/front2454222.0493055554.html

After all, who do ya think gave them the battleplans?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/24/143618.shtml
Here's their Battleplan:
http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&Product_ID=889&CATID=13&GroupID=58&CFID=3704720&CFTOKEN=bb1ace130b663335-53B2B7A9-1372-63AB-A5AEC88FE14E038C
It's reason #1 why we're saving most of our armed forces, and not gone to a total war footing.
Even Iran isn't the main event.

:-)

Posted by: jcom972 at May 3, 2007 4:51 PM

...does this Government not seem to be able to grasp?
Posted by: Un:dhimmi

I've been asking myself the very same thing for over 20 years now. Most of the people I've cautiously asked for an opinion have branded me as 'racist' since islamophobe is a more recent construct.

I am still waiting for their apologies and for the governments to FINALLY GET IT!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at May 3, 2007 5:08 PM

What is that going to cost the poor taxpayer, a quick calculation gives me an approximate figure, of between 6 and 7 million and that is only wage costs. That is without pensions and training and without continual surveillance to see that the people who are recruited to do the surveillance are not plants from Al Queda. The last lot of the followers of the religion of peace that were just sentenced have already cost us 50 million and will cost us at least another 10 million just to keep them locked up. If the threat continues at the present exponential rate, Britain should be bankrupt in approximate 20 years.

We Brits in December last year, finally paid off the last installment of the loans we took out in America to fight the last world war. That war virtually bankrupted us. We spent the wealth we had accumulated over 200 years of Empire in a paroxysm of extravagance between 1939 until the lease lend bill was signed, precisely when the British Empire ran out of money. The lend lease bill was signed because America knew that if we the British Empire went down in defeat, America would have been next in line and the cost of winning the war would have been much higher. By any stretch of the imagination lend lease was an extremely good investment.

The supply of money by the way is what really determines who wins a war. The saying that God is always on the side of the big battalions, should really be be changed to God is always on the side who can pay for the big battalions. America like all great powers at the beginning of there rise to power made a profit out of there wars. The American Civil war which cost you nearly 400,000 dead and left the southern states in a state of penury, still ended with America being richer than it was before it started the war. Immigration had more than compensated for the loss of live and oil production that had been at a level of 58,000 barrels at the beginning of the war had risen to nearly 2,500,000 million barrels . The same goes for all the wars America fought up too and including the Second World War. America profited from its wars. The wars that have followed afterwards, well they have been a little more problematic. Let us just say that up until now you have broke even. This last fit of Hubris has cost America up to present, approximately three time what they spend in the Second World War. Iraq is a cesspit in which you pour your wealth and sons. Not only that you need a growth rate of at least 2% just to service you debts incurred by importing more than you export. That growth rate depends on your ability to import oil, no oil, no growth. I will let the American readers work out the consequences of another oil war in the Middle East. It seems to me that you will be dammed if you do and dammed if you don't . Another war would would certainly raise the price of oil to over 100 dollars a barrels and cause a slowdown in the American Economy. No growth would mean you couldn't service your debts. If America does not go to war you will still be pouring Billions into Iraq, who do not appreciate it but will accept it as a god given right and have no interest in becoming Democratic. I ask a simple question can America pay for this war when the costs are rising exponentially can America pay the bill for homeland security, Iraq, transfer more troops to Iraq just try and stabilize a deteriorating situation. America is in the front line, the same way we British were in the front line in 1940, only this time there is no country to offer you lend lease. If America goes we all go.

Posted by: Holger Dansker at May 3, 2007 5:16 PM

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." [Omar Ahmad, the long-serving chairman of CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) July 1998]

For the US and the west, that speaks volumes.

In the UK, if 2000 are suspected then the real number is much higher, more like 20000 jihadists.

We have brought the burden of jihadists on ourselves with our immigration policies.

Europe, and North America, will suffer immensely forever more due to the ever increasing costs of monitoring, investigations, security, legal procedures, infrastructure to attempt to handle and enemy we cannot even name politically.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will see immensely decreasing services such as health care, policing, security, legal services, rights and freedom of speech as we know them, all wasted away dealing with Islam in ou midst.

We will be the ones doing all the accomodating, and the paying, in a utterly failed attempt at multicultralism.

Insane.

To correct it involves drastic measures since it has gone so far. The UK is screwed.

Will it get corrected, NO, we can't even stand up to the likes of the A..hole I quoted in my post opening above, nor the A..holes kidnapping soldiers in the middle east. We buy our way out every time and thats what we'll do...pay one way or the other.

Insane.

Posted by: sounder at May 3, 2007 5:59 PM

We should take it out of the UK budget for madrassas (no I'm not joking) in Pakistan that Tony Blair has paid for in the hope they might be nice to us.

The UK has a budget for ("the Westerners are satans!") madrassas?!

I knew Tony (Oxford man) is a dope, but tell me this ain't so...

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at May 3, 2007 6:03 PM

"When you spot one rat, you can count on there being twenty more behind the walls."

Old Farmer's Saying.

When will England go bankrupt from watching Muslims?

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 3, 2007 6:40 PM

"I like to try and bring peoples on board like I have formed a bond with my kaffur sister champ....this is a bond that cannot be broken...one day she asked about my family...she sounded like a genunie friend...pretty good for a kaffur...and thus she is now my sister....I hope that one day I can pass onto her the spirit of Islam that roams in me."

Naseem --

I can appreciate where you're coming from, because I have the same vision for you; only mine is different in that I would love for you to leave Islam, and for you to receive Jesus Christ.

Please don't take this personally, but Islam will never appeal to me, not ever; because of the evil things that prophet Mohammad and his followers have done. I believe Islam is evil, Naseem, so why would I want to follow an evil religion?

Jesus never did evil things, and that's why I believe He is the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. Some of his so-called "followers" have done evil things, but not Jesus. Which is why I follow Him -- not a religion.

Take care!

Posted by: champ at May 3, 2007 6:45 PM

Alarmed, Yeah, I found that pretty unbelievable, also -- the UK funding Pakistani madrassas?

Found the following from the Beeb:
"Muslim focus for British Council
Monday, 26 February 2007
...
It will then spend up to £20m on a three-year programme to strengthen links with the Islamic world.

The Council's director general designate said the move was vital to bridge a "widening gap of trust".

Martin Davidson insisted it was time to tackle the "new challenges the world faces" by forging new relationships with the Middle East and Asia.

'Britishness'

One flagship project called Reconnect will work with madrassas - religious schools - in countries like Pakistan to try to combat radicalisation.

Some initiatives will be run in Europe too, for example, a multi-lateral scheme to strengthen European identity among European Muslims.

The Council was founded in 1934 after the government became concerned about the need to promote "Britishness" abroad.

It receives an annual grant of £186m from the Foreign Office and earns a further £300m from paid-for English language classes and examinations..."

Oook -- well, I guess that's par for the Dhimmi course the Brits have decided (willfully) to embark on. Frankly, I don't pity them, I don't feel sorry for them -- they fill me with disgust, and they get what they deserve. I hope they enjoy bowin' and scrapin' to their new found masters.

Posted by: J.S. at May 3, 2007 6:54 PM

Holger Dansker, America can always continue to grow. In the end, it does not need to buy oil, or to service debt. It has the power to take the oil at will, and it has the power to cancel its own debt, which is exactly what would happen if push ever comes to shove. All power comes from the barrel of a gun. That is the final arbiter in a world gone mad.

To paraphrase Tony Montana in Scarface, "First you get the gun, then you get the oil, then you get the woman."

Posted by: jihadwatcher at May 3, 2007 7:02 PM

Re: "The fertiliser bomb plot case has highlighted the links to terrorist training camps in Pakistan".

Just imagine Jesus or Buddha telling their followers, "If they don't believe, hit them with a fertiliser bomb". Give me a break. What kind of "religion" is this?

Posted by: Frank at May 3, 2007 7:45 PM

OT:

Al-Qaeda contractors built explosives right into the foundation, walls, and ceiling of a girls school in Iraq!!!

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/never-hire-an-al-qaeda-construction-crew/

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at May 3, 2007 8:02 PM

Holger Dansker

A big 10-4! I concur.

There is a good argument for the idea that the allies won WWII specifically because they could out-invent and out-produce the axis powers.

What is more, this is more or less how Reagan won the cold war. He simply set up a situation where the Russians had to spend themselves into exhaustion. Not to mention alienating their own population while they were at it.

There can be little doubt that the jihaddi planners have a similar fate in mind for us.

They can't out-produce us. Hell, they can't even make their own cars. But they can certainly place us in a situation where we empty our pockets in endless, fruitless and expensive defensive measures. And again -- alienating our own population from our gov't while we're at it.

It will take a very different perspective to turn this thing around, some hard-headed realism and some real leadership.

Posted by: joeblough at May 3, 2007 8:10 PM

"MI5's 2,000 terror suspects are likely to keep growing in number."

I've always said that Muslims are irrational, but I'm beginning to wonder about our own Western leaders.

MI5 is watching 2000 terror subpects, and that number is growing, so the response is to watch them.

How long do they plan on watching them, until they kill a couple thousand people?

The sane response would be to round them up, put them on planes out of Britain, back to the hell-holes they, or their parents, came from.

Watching them isn't going to save anyones life. Throwing them out of the country could save thousands of lives.

It might also serve as a warning to other Muslims that if they don't shape up, they're on their way out also.

Posted by: rational at May 3, 2007 8:28 PM

On Holger Dansker’s post:

There is a big difference between the American people and the American government. The American people, or at least 50 million or so of them, are thriving and have amassed unheard of sums of wealth (and arms). The American government is already bankrupt. Our GNP is $12 trillion; our annual ‘budget’ is $3 trillion, most of which goes to ballooning health care bills. But in addition to the $3 trillion ‘budget’, we incur another $3 trillion in unfunded liabilities, mostly for future health care promises. Senator Coburn, M.D., a new Senator from Oklahoma who has not ‘gone native in DC’, puts current unfunded liabilities at $70 trillion. And our politicians are leaping over each other trying to outspend each other for universal healthcare as we open the floodgates for the third world.

The whole thing is destined to go pop.

And when it does, the people who will be able to pay the big battalions are those 50 million independently wealthy Americans. They will likely re-instate the United States Constitution as it was originally adopted, with voting rights being restricted to those who hold lien-free real estate (the racial test is not necessary). We've got the natural resources, a lot of military hardware, and a proud history. The West will emerge stronger and wiser. I hope.

Posted by: pez at May 3, 2007 8:30 PM

wow, Pez wants to make the world safe for timocracy!

Posted by: wallyUK at May 3, 2007 10:41 PM

Shouldn't they be monitoring statements by people at private gatherings that are critical of Islam for prosecution? How many jihadis go unwatched, so that this priority of the Labour government is met?

Posted by: Old Atlantic at May 3, 2007 10:57 PM

Meanwhile, Way to Go UK! -- Wally's UK World wants to make the world safe for the Jihadists.

Posted by: J.S. at May 3, 2007 10:58 PM

....I hope that one day I can pass onto her the spirit of Islam that roams in me.

Posted by: Naseem at May 3, 2007 04:45 PM

Naseem, you're hilarious! How does it feel to be possessed by demons? You should consider consulting an exorcist the next time you're in the civilized world. You'll feel much better when the roaming demons are banished forever and don't worry, they'll quickly find another warm and cozy muslim to possess.

Posted by: Susanp at May 3, 2007 11:36 PM

wallyUK; I drive a Ford Focus with 130k miles on the odometer. I don't know what a timocracy is but I take it you don't like them.

It is what it is. The forces in play will bring the gyroscope to equilibrium. Fascinating times.

Posted by: pez at May 3, 2007 11:42 PM

Nothing too alarming yet. Just wait, the rapier sharp UK intelligentsia will devise a police state that will be the envy of the (by then) police-state-loving world. Another world war will seem a relief from the downward spiral that virtually everyone would be driven into by our unwillingness to define and destroy a common enemy. Islam is counting on this civilized weakness. But nothing to worry about for a few decades-- 50 years perhaps. "But the s*it will hit the fan before then!" you say? Maybe just a prelude.

[from jihadwatcher]: "... America can always continue to grow. In the end, it does not need to buy oil, or to service debt. It has the power to take the oil at will, and it has the power to cancel its own debt, which is exactly what would happen if push ever comes to shove. All power comes from the barrel of a gun. That is the final arbiter in a world gone mad."

Yes, that is essentially true, but the problem is the ramp time between events. Only a few generations away from some nation-redifining war or movement we tend to lose perspective, with the current result that many "thinking" people believe war is never necessary or justified. They can't even see it in metaphysical terms, the yin and yang of inseparable opposites- peace and war. Two sides of the same coin.

Apparently our enemies are not real enough or scary enough to convince politicians and citizens in the West that the road ahead is darkening. It is almost as if there are three camps: those who are aware of the current reality and the need for all defense options, those who are in perfect denial of what the first group knows, and those who are asleep. Don't expect the ratio (1:3:8) to change anytime soon, if ever.

Posted by: lycaste at May 4, 2007 1:20 AM

On 9-11 I for sure thought they would close the borders and stop visa's and anyone entering. Especially islamist! Why they cannot put two and two together! They said on tv last night there are 300 million in U.S. Then 300 million illigals! If the illegals get legal they can invite their whole family in! As Hugh mentioned the cost is alot alot! We are going broke just over illegals. One problem like 9-11 we will be up sht creek! I do not see why we are forced to tolerate this. It is here in your face issue and forget the American dream it is a turning into a nightmare. Which I have had several even recently! I feel like I am getting the 7th senses. I see dead people!

Posted by: MZ at May 4, 2007 2:18 AM

So, ia there any distinctions between the 2000 jihadists and the rest of the muslim population? What makes a jihadist except an explicit and fanatical brlief in of their intolerant religion? Isn't every orthodox muslim a potential jihadists?

Posted by: czekmark` at May 4, 2007 4:22 AM

And everyone surely knows that 2,000 will be the thin end of the wedge. There are far more out there, and the problem of watching 2,000 people is enormous, especially when you realise that it takes a team of at least a dozen people to watch the movements of one person. So you are looking at a minimum of 25,000 people to watch 2,000 suspects. And we know there are far more than 2,000 out there.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at May 4, 2007 4:23 AM

Polls of UK Muslims suggest that about one percent of UK Muslims are potential jihadists (about 16,000 people), and another 6 or 8% (over 100,000 people) would in some sense "support" terror against the UK. Something like half of UK Muslims (about 800,000 people) appear to desire Islamic law in the UK. If 1% of UK Muslims means 16,000 potential jihadists, and each one had to be surveiled 24/7 by at least one civil servant, then you would need about 50,000 full time civil servants (adding together three shifts) merely for field operatives to cover those jihadis. If each field operative earns the equivalent of $30,000 US, that's $1,500,000,000 (one billion, five hundred million dollars a year). That doesn't cover the cost of equipment, vehicles, etc., or the cost of monitoring the other 5% or 8% of Muslims who might in some way support jihadists. Nor does it cover the cost of paying those at headquarters who centralize and organize all the surveillance operations. By some accounts, government revenues in the UK in 2006 were US $973 billion. So about 1/5 of 1 percent of government revenues would seem to be needed merely for field operatives to surveil all the potential jihadists currently in the UK, and not counting all the other security measures Hugh alluded to.

More to the point, the National Intelligence Council's medium growth projection for Muslim population in Europe shows almost a doubling by 2025. (See p. 114 of the excellent book, The Religion of Peace, which Robert Spencer is now advertising on Jihad Watch.) The NIC's high growth projection shows almost a tripling. Even assuming all attempted attacks are thwarted, so that no costs are thus incurred, an estimate of something like five percent of the annual UK budget being spent merely to manage the risks emanating from Muslim UK citizens seems a conservative estimate for the near future. To get a feel for what this means, five percent of the 2006 U.S. budget would have been about $125 billion. (I'm assuming the 2006 US budget was 2.5 trillion).

But my five percent estimate for 2025 is admittedly more a wild guess than a serious accounting, and it makes a wild assumption: that things will go on more or less as they have.

Posted by: traeh at May 4, 2007 5:00 AM

If my estimates above are anywhere in the ballpark, it looks as if the really serious economic damage Muslims can do is through successful major terror events, not through forcing the UK to monitor them. Five percent of government revenues is indeed an outrageously high cost for containing risks from a group of citizens who should be loyal, but if that were the only problem, it would be manageable. It appears the more serious problems will be managing the effects of WMD events that are not thwarted, stopping the spread of Islamic law, preventing intimidation of the media by jihadists, and resisting the demographic takeover of Europe by Islamic totalitarianism before the century's end.

Posted by: traeh at May 4, 2007 5:20 AM

As they say there is good and bad in every thing.
As there is use and abuse. You can abuse anything to much. Or one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Not all whites are bad not all blacks not all muslims, not all islamist, not all teens, not all men, not all women, -their not all good either!

Posted by: MZ at May 4, 2007 6:00 AM

'As they say there is good and bad in every thing.'

All cliches aside, mz, I can't find any of that good in Islam. Islams threats to other civilizstions will last as long as Islam ia intolerant to non-muslims and doesn't recognize them as significant equals. Since muslims believe that their quor'n is the word of Allah, their god, any reform does not seem possible.
Get my drift, Islam is the problem and as long as it exist, there will be civil unrest.

Posted by: czekmark` at May 4, 2007 7:58 AM

On a quiet starry night, MI5 (disguised as robbers) rounds them all up and quietly deports them OUT of the country to a secure facility - somewhere unknown to the UN or EU. How about the south pole?

The next morning....

Posted by: The Goobs at May 4, 2007 8:42 AM

'Britain's MI5 monitoring 2000 suspected jihadists'

Ok...let's get this straight, when they say 'monitoring' they don't mean watching round the clock, they mean they had an address for them...once. Or, more likely...they claim benefits so they know where they are once a fortnight, for 5 minutes.

MI5 has 2,800 employees, soon to be increased to 3,500...and they are responsible for far more than watching Muslims.

So, its looking likely there's 20,000 need watching not 2000 and those doing the watching have neither the time or the resources.

I don't feel too reassured.

Posted by: MrTommyAtkins at May 4, 2007 11:36 AM

Looks like the British government needs to get some files out of the archives so they can re-learn how to deal with a counter-insurgency.

This article at the US Army War College site talks about how the British handled insurgencies 50 years ago:
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/06spring/markel.htm

“The first reaction to guerilla warfare must be to protect and control the population."
Brigadier Richard L. Clutterbuck
The Long, Long War: Counterinsurgency
in Malaya and Vietnam

“What the peasant wants to know is: does the government mean to win the war? Because if not, he will have to support the insurgent.”
Sir Robert Thompson
Defeating Communist Insurgency:
The Lessons of Malaya and Vietnam

Posted by: veil416 at May 4, 2007 2:43 PM

That previous post should have read: "...how to deal with an insurgency."

Posted by: veil416 at May 4, 2007 2:47 PM

From Nasseem, ".......I hope that one day I can pass onto her the spirit of Islam that roams in me. "

It seems someone has crabs in his pants.

Posted by: R_not at May 4, 2007 3:08 PM

Yeah -- they're called cottie-crabs. I felt them run up my back when she wished "the spirit of Islam" upon me. No thank you!

No worries, though, because a little soap and water took care of these little buggers; but Naseem may need a full-blown exorcism to get rid of hers.

Posted by: champ at May 4, 2007 3:34 PM

Czekmark; Yes I should have cleared that up what I meant about good and bad even islamist. I was thinking of the ones who realize they are in the wrong. Islam has nothing but graves! A dark non existing life. Some realize they are good people and must get out. That's what I meant about them!

Posted by: MZ at May 4, 2007 3:53 PM

This article makes me think of something I just read in the Jerusalem Post this morning (article on organised crime in Israel and attempts to fight it; linked to very interesting article on how to tackle organised crime - something called RICOH [if I'm getting that right]).

I have also been thinking about the methods Rudy Giuliani used to bring down the general crime rate in New York - come down hard on the 'minor' 'public nuisance' stuff, and nine times out of ten the person you catch for, say, peeing in public or riding the buses/ trains without paying, will turn out to be carrying an illegal weapon, or to be on the 'wanted' list for you-name-it. See 'Tipping Point' by Gladwell, for a brilliant chapter describing the process.

One of the JPost linked articles said that the mafia (the mob families) in America were sneaking back because government resources were being absorbed by 'anti-terror' efforts. And I thought...wait a minute. This ought to be about killing two birds with one stone. Tackle the jihadists as if they were mobsters. Hell: half the time I think you'll find the jihadists and the 'mobs' hooked up in some way - as when Taliban makes money through feeding the heroin trade, ditto with people smuggling and trafficking in women.

Anyway: so many of Islam's methods right from the beginning when Mohammed was getting going, are ALSO the methods of organised crime/ the 'mob'/ the mafia. And in all sorts of places Islam is getting money by mobster methods. So: treat the jihadist organisations in the West as if they were simply one more 'crime family'.

PS - Gladwell's 'Tipping Point' discusses the 'broken window' factor, how neighbourhoods go downhill and how to turn that around. The description of the 'going downhill' process reminded me forcibly of the methods that Muslims have used to take over neighbourhoods in France and Scandinavia. Read it, everybody.

To sum up: our governments and police could cross-apply RICOH for fighting mobsters, to fighting Islamic jihad as it manifests within the west. We catch The Godfather and Bin Laden's clones by the same techniques. And we can wake up to 'broken window' syndrome and apply precisely Rudy Giuliani's methods for pushing back, there. Whenever Muslim 'youths' create public nuisance, harass people, etc - come down HARD.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 4, 2007 4:30 PM

“Oook -- well, I guess that's par for the Dhimmi course the Brits have decided (willfully) to embark on. Frankly, I don't pity them, I don't feel sorry for them -- they fill me with disgust, and they get what they deserve. I hope they enjoy bowin' and scrapin' to their new found masters.”

Thus an entire nation is written off. Well, we could write off “the Yanks” for electing the Dhimmicrats as well, but where would that get anyone? Does this sort of post add one whit of understanding to the problem we all face?

Posted by: JFGR at May 4, 2007 6:53 PM