I hope the plight of Ahmad Ghassaman will be reported on by the MSM. The media can make him into a martyr and perhaps an inspiration for other young Iranians to follow. God bless the students...may their efforts at independant thought prevail against the cult leaders.

Posted by: Xero G at May 6, 2007 1:14 AM

Don't count on it.
Good thing is...there's a plan at work here.
(it should've been implemented a long time ago...but better late than never).
I agree with ya Xero...I hope they succeed, too.

Posted by: jcom972 at May 6, 2007 1:18 AM

Almost every day, one encounters something highly offensive to Christianity. Yet, Christians must simply put up with it. It is a distinct double standard?

Posted by: Barnaby at May 6, 2007 3:14 AM

Not really...just goes to show...
Truth withstands time, and criticism...unlike the well-demonstrated insecurity of those whose position is so baseless, so without foundation, thus so insecure that they cannot withstand the least of criticism &/or scrutiny without going into a murderous rage for the slightest of these.

Only one who is unsure, and insecure of ones own position would fly into such a vociferous reaction.

Posted by: jcom972 at May 6, 2007 3:42 AM

"It was not clear exactly what the reportedly offensive material contained."

It rarely is.

Frankly, I have ZERO sympathy for Muslim victims of Islam. They all deserve what they get for perpetuating Islam in any form. It must be abolished, plain and simple. This is one so called "religion" which shows no capacity for reform -- and only can seem moderate to the extent that its core tenets are ignored and flouted.

Islam is sewage. Pure filth. And Muslims who practice Islam in their hell holes of origin -- or worse, Muslims who insist on bringing this filth with them when they leave their hell hole of origin deserve exactly what they get when Islam turns around and bites them back.

Muslims get zero sympathy from me.

Posted by: jsla at May 6, 2007 3:51 AM

The publication of items "insulting" Islam indicates a resurgence of humanity among those trapped within it.

Like jsla, I am unsympathetic to Muslims, no matter how sleekly "secular" they appear. It doesn't matter if they abstain from mutilating their girl children, honor killing them, beating their wives, teaching murder and hatred, or if they sign Declarations or join Boards of "multicultural" or "anti-jihad" organizations or write books advocating "reform", or write screeds attacking Osama or whatever jihadist is the flavor of the month.

It comes down to this. If you believe a child-molesting, mass-murdering, serial raping, common thief and extortionist is a prophet, if you really believe this, there is something wrong with you. In this respect, you are a Klansman without the sheet, or a Nazi without the brownshirt.

If you are truly human, you will leave this ideology in the dust.

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at May 6, 2007 5:10 AM

I may frankly state that I know some Muslims who are very decent, peaceful people. The reason they are Muslims, is obviously that they were born into a particular faith and/or culture.

Muslims have many things in common with Christians. For example, they both do not approve of:
- Atheism (leading to a lack of moral basis);
- Sexual immorality, including promiscuity and homosexuality (leading to undermining of normal relations);
- Pornography (leading to disrespect);
- Abortion (as murder);
- Relativism (i.e. the belief that their is no absolute right and wrong), etc.

I think the Presidents of the USA and of Iran, both religious men, will have many similar beliefs (e.g. in prayer), and should talk together in a friendly way.

How many people are killed by terrorists each year (maybe a thousand or so)? How many innocent babies are murdered by 'liberal' abortionists each year (millions)?

Christians and Muslims should develop greater mutual respect, and work together against immorality, which is the real enemy of humanity.

Posted by: Barnaby at May 6, 2007 5:53 AM

Yes, a prison of their own making. They are prisoners of Islam.
They can leave it any time and become human. A dead human.
And in their minds, off to eternal hell. Fear is the key. Here, and the hereafter.

Hotel California:
"You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave!"

On an aside, do they know the difference between criticism and insult?
To the narcissistic Mohammedans anything is an insult.

Posted by: pr126 at May 6, 2007 6:01 AM

Islam is the only religion that has within itself ways of detering those who want reform, thereby creating a constant backlash on any reformers. for those born into islam, they had no choice as children, and but l have less sympathy for those who immigrate to Western lands and want to bring that cult with them. That death cult of islam that created these immigrants poverty and dictatorships either my military might or muslim clerics should be tossed aside by any right minded thinking adult.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at May 6, 2007 6:31 AM

"Christians and Muslims should develop greater mutual respect, and work together against immorality, which is the real enemy of humanity."

Barnaby you are so right! But, sadly, apparently that is not the agenda of this forum and many of it's posters. As a Jew who is well aware of the activities of Israel and Israelis, I have to ask how is that the posters of this forum, many if not most who are Christians, can see so clearly the faults and extremes of Islam and Muslims and turn such a blind eye towards the faults and extremes of Israel and Israelis, and by extension, Judiasm?

As an example, have a look at the following:

American Woman beaten by Israeli Fanatics for Refusing to Move to Rear Seat

Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat - By Daphna Berman

A woman who reported a vicious attack by an ad-hoc "modesty patrol" on a Jerusalem bus last month is now lining up support for her case and may be included in a petition to the High Court of Justice over the legality of sex-segregated buses.

Miriam Shear says she was traveling to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City early on November 24 when a group of ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) men attacked her for refusing to move to the back of the Egged No. 2 bus. She is now in touch with several legal advocacy and women's organizations, and at the same time, waiting for the police to apprehend her attackers.

In her first interview since the incident, Shear says that on the bus three weeks ago, she was slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women. The bus driver, in response to a media inquiry, denied that violence was used against her, but Shear's account has been substantiated by an unrelated eyewitness on the bus who confirmed that she sustained an unprovoked "severe beating."

Shear, an American-Israeli woman who currently lives in Canada, says that on a recent five-week vacation to Israel, she rode the bus daily to the Old City to pray at sunrise. Though not defined by Egged as a sex-segregated "mehadrin" bus, women usually sit in the back, while men sit in the front, as a matter of custom.” Every two or three days, someone would tell me to sit in the back, sometimes politely and sometimes not," she recalled this week in a telephone interview.” I was always polite and said “No. This is not a synagogue. I am not going to sit in the back.”

But Shear, a 50-year-old religious woman, says that on the morning of the 24th, a man got onto the bus and demanded her seat - even though there were a number of other seats available in the front of the bus.” I said, I'm not moving and he said,’ I’m not asking you, I'm telling you.' Then he spat in my face and at that point, I was in high adrenaline mode and called him a son-of-a-bitch, which I am not proud of. Then I spat back. At that point, he pushed me down and people on the bus were screaming that I was crazy. Four men surrounded me and slapped my face, punched me in the chest, pulled at my clothes, beat me, kicked me. My snood [hair covering] came off. I was fighting back and kicked one of the men in his privates. I will never forget the look on his face."

Shear says that when she bent down in the aisle to retrieve her hair covering,” one of the men kicked me in the face. Thank God he missed my eye. I got up and punched him. I said,’ I want my hair covering back' but he wouldn't give it to me, so I took his black hat and threw it in the aisle.

"'Stupid American”

Throughout the encounter, Shear says the bus driver "did nothing." The other passengers, she says, blamed her for not moving to the back of the bus and called her a "stupid American” with no sechel [common sense.] People blamed me for not knowing my place and not going to the back of the bus “where I belong."

According to Yehoshua Meyer, the eyewitness to the incident, Shear's account is entirely accurate.” I saw everything," he said.” Someone got on the bus and demanded that she go to the back, but she didn't agree. She was badly beaten and her whole body sustained hits and kicks. She tried to fight back and no one would help her. I tried to help, but someone was stopping me from getting up. My phone's battery was dead, so I couldn't call the police. I yelled for the bus driver to stop. He stopped once, but he didn't do anything. When we finally got to the Kotel [Western Wall], she was beaten badly and I helped her go to the police."

Shear says that when she first started riding the No. 2 line, she did not even know that it was sometimes sex-segregated. She also says that sitting in the front is simply more comfortable.” I’m a 50-year-old woman and I don't like to sit in the back. I'm dressed appropriately and I was on a public bus.” It is very dangerous for a group of people to take control over a public entity and enforce their will without going through due process," she said.” Even if they [Haredim who want a segregated bus] are a majority - and I don't think they are - they have options available. They can petition Egged or hire their own private line. But as long as it's a public bus, I don't care if there are 500 people telling me where to sit. I can sit wherever I want and so can anyone else."

Meyer says that throughout the incident, the other passengers blamed Shear for not sitting in the back.” They’ll probably claim that she attacked them first, but that's totally untrue. She was abused terribly, and I've never seen anything like it."

Word of Shear's story traveled quickly after she forwarded an e-mail detailing her experience. She has been contacted by a number of groups, including Shatil, the New Israel Fund's Empowerment and Training Center for Social Change; Kolech, a religious women's forum; the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the legal advocacy arm of the local Reform movement; and the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA).

In the coming month, IRAC will be submitting a petition to the High Court of Justice against the Transportation Ministry over the issue of segregated Egged buses. IRAC attorney Orly Erez-Likhovski is in touch with Shear and is considering including her in the petition.

Although the No. 2 Jerusalem bus where the incident occurred is not actually defined as a mehadrin line, Erez-Likhovski says that Shear's story is further proof that the issue requires legal clarification. About 30 Egged buses are designated as mehadrin, mostly on inter-city lines, but they are not marked to indicate this.” There’s no way to identify a mehadrin bus, which in itself is a problem," she said.” Theoretically, a person can sit wherever they want, even on a mehadrin line, but we're seeing that people are enforcing [the gender segregation] even on non-mehadrin lines and that's the part of the danger," she said.

On a mehadrin bus, women enter and exit through the rear door, and the seats from the rear door back are generally considered the "women's section." A child is usually sent forward to pay the driver.

The official responses

In a response from Egged, the bus driver denied that Shear was physically attacked in any way.” In a thorough inquiry that we conducted, we found that the bus driver does not confirm that any violence was used against the complainant," Egged spokesman Ron Ratner wrote.” According to the driver, once he saw that there was a crowd gathering around her, he stopped the bus and went to check what was going on. He clarified to the passengers that the bus was not a mehadrin line and that all passengers on the line are permitted to sit wherever they want on the bus. After making sure that the passengers returned to their seats, he continued driving."

The Egged response also noted that their drivers "are not able and are not authorized to supervise the behavior of the passengers in all situations."

Ministry of Transportation spokesperson Avner Ovadia said in response that the mehadrin lines are "the result of agreements reached between Egged and Haredi bodies" and are therefore unconnected to the ministry.

A spokesperson for the Jerusalem police said the case is still under investigation.

SOURCE : HAARETZ ISRAELI NEWSPAPER
http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?it...

There is a double standard at work. Israeli supporters prowl the internet and the media shouting "hate speech" not at those who actually hate, but at those who focus on the embarrassing truths Israel does not want Americans to think about while they pony up another few billions dollars. The good news is that Israel's supporters have screamed "hate speech" and "anti-Semite" so much that the phrases have lost their shock value, which means they have lost their value to silence.

Posted by: Ben at May 6, 2007 6:36 AM

Ben- When You have a couple Hundred Thousand more Stories like this, you might be believable.

Posted by: flowerknife_us at May 6, 2007 7:10 AM

Interesting how they always travel in pairs when they attack sites like this one.

Posted by: Gary at May 6, 2007 7:22 AM

This report should be front page news. Where's Amnesty International or all the other bleeding hearts at. Makes one wonder how many other people have been taken away, maybe never to be heard from again.

Posted by: AMartinez at May 6, 2007 7:34 AM

Ben, there are lots of stories about the behavior of ultra-orthodox Jews (I know, I used to live in Brooklyn near the Hassidic community). But their attitudes are not the attitudes of the jewish mainstream, and most importantly you have no shortage of Jews being critical of bad behavior from ultra-Orthodox Jews

Contrast that with Islam. How much criticism of ultra-Orthodox Muslims do you see from mainstream Muslim groups?

Posted by: PapaBear at May 6, 2007 8:18 AM

Ben good name for a wannabe muslim appologist. you take one story of this type of trip and then you have hundred of muslims killing each other and killing non muslims. Did this "American" lose her head? was she kidnapped? you see there are laws and courts in Israel where she can get justice. Where is the justice of victims caused by islamists in muslims countries. Ben you are sad person, and we are onto people like you on this site. so go blow up somewhere, make my day.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at May 6, 2007 8:26 AM

This site does give the impression that supporters of Israel feel that they have a special licence to espouse racial and religious hatred. Given the history of the Jewish people, and their own struggles against hatred, they should certainly see the hypocrisy of now adopting the rhetoric of 'Nazism' themselves.

Even if you disagree with someone else's beliefs, the best way to convert people is by providing a positive example of your own system- an example of moral integrity, charity, compassion, justice, etc.

Am I more likely to interest a person in attending Church by insulting and rubbishing them, or by treating them kindly?

Posted by: Barnaby at May 6, 2007 9:05 AM

Re: TEHERAN - Iran has arrested the editor of a student paper after the publication of material deemed insulting to Islam in four reformist papers at a prestigious Teheran university, press reports said on Saturday.

The rigid repression of critical analysis of Islam reminds me very much of the Soviet reactions to critical analysis of the USSR. Critics were called anti-Soviet, accused of incitement, jailed, exiled, some were even killed. There may well be a great deal of ferment under the rigid shell of Islam. It's not like steel, flexible and strong. It's more like iron, hard and brittle and prone to shatter under stress. They fear critical analysis because they fear the belief system will shatter under critical analysis.

Posted by: Frank at May 6, 2007 9:13 AM

Hey Ben, of course some men of whatever religion on the globe treat women crappy - but the male Muslims even more so.

As "flowerknife" said, why don't you provide us with a "hundred thousand" more stories like this, and then you might have a comparison of bad male behavior against females equal to the Muslims.

Nice try, lol

Posted by: darcy at May 6, 2007 9:26 AM

Barnaby~ I've been reading this site for two years, and I do not recall Anyone claiming that Jews have a "special licence to espouse racial and religious hatred." May we have you provide links to those comments?

Posted by: Gary at May 6, 2007 9:49 AM

Protest broke out this morning at the Amir Kabir University Entrance regarding the arrests this Sunday morning.

Read here from IRAN FOCUS:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11126

Posted by: Mackie at May 6, 2007 9:50 AM

Rude behavior on an Israeli bus is not exactly one of the worlds greatest problems and it is not something that even belongs on a JW thread. The two "B's" posting here are just muslim or wannabe muslim idiots trying to be provocative. Barnaby, give an example of the "racial hatred" that supporters of Israel espouse. Start with ONE example.

Posted by: pismopal at May 6, 2007 10:05 AM

People, OT, but relevant as all-get-out. For some reason this morning I thought about W.B. Yeats' 1921 poem, "The Second Coming." Here's why I thought about it:

The poem predicts Christianity coming to an end after 2000 years of dominance, to be replaced by a system antithetical to it. ANTITHETICAL.

Sound familiar? I think Yeats was as prescient as Orwell about events happening to us right now.

If you read the (short, 2-stanza) poem, you will see that Yeats is NOT happy about this.

In the poem, as Christianity begins it's decline, "mere anarchy is loosed upon the world/The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere/The ceremony of innocence is drowned./The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity...

That's in the first stanza. Here, in full, is the second:

"A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
(I.e. PAGAN)-darcy
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast (that's ISLAM)-darcy), its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Wow! I mean, is the 2nd stanza describing Islam, or what?

One thing Yeats was wrong about - "the best lack all conviction." Well, not completely wrong, as our Christian Dhimmi (liberals) brethren/sistren DO "lack all conviction." But, we here at JW are also "the best" and we've got "conviction" to spare...

Thanks for your time if you slogged through my explication.

Posted by: darcy at May 6, 2007 10:25 AM

Barnaby-

All of history is the long and repeated story of some group conquering, subduing, exploiting and even exterminating some lately "indigenous people". This is usually done under the guise of religion-ideology. The Aztec sought to subdue the Toltec, the Spaniard did likewise to the Aztec, the Arab did so to the Spaniard, the Ottoman did so in Constantinople, it even happened with America re the "native American" (who were quite busy killing each other). It's a pattern repeated over and over again. The pretense (for political reasons) is that this is somehow unique to West Europeans, or that Zionism is essentially in this pattern.

Islam is the engine of Arab Imperialism. It is just another "manifest destiny" doctorine that permits the conquest, subduing and extermination (India, e.g.) of "indigenous peoples". Islam is, at its core, Imperialism-primarily Arab Imperialism. We are witnessing a revival of that agressive Arab Imperialism in our era.

Zionism is a defensive ideology. Roughly half the people in Israel are descendants of those who have fled Arab-Muslim tyranny and a Dhimmi status in Dar-al-Islam. The Jewish state is a reaction to Nazi and Muslim intolerance.

Posted by: Frank at May 6, 2007 10:28 AM

Ben & Barnaby, why dont you start your own icecream business, you can replace the Ben & Jerry's one, just had a little jihad to your icecream and wow you start blowing up!

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at May 6, 2007 10:33 AM

Islam is very effective as a stealth Imperialist system, far more effective than any other Imperialism (Manchu, British, etc.) and it still has conquered people bowing to Mecca. It is the engine of Arab Imperialism.

Posted by: Frank at May 6, 2007 10:36 AM

This, ladies, gentlemen, and trolls, is thoughtcrime.

Posted by: Pelayo at May 6, 2007 10:45 AM

Ben - are ultra orthodox Jews on a mission to overthrow secular democracies throughout the world in order to impose their religious beliefs on the planet? If you detect evidence of such, why don't you start a website called UltraorthodoxJewwatch?

Barnaby: "Even if you disagree with someone else's beliefs, the best way to convert people is by providing a positive example of your own system- an example of moral integrity, charity, compassion, justice, etc."

Righto. That approach is working very well for the Buddhists in Thailand and Christians in the Middle east, isn't it?

Posted by: Caroline at May 6, 2007 10:56 AM

Opponents may deny and suppress freedom, but they know the truth.
A free secular democracy is just. A free competitive and transparent marketplace is just. Individual freedom is just. Freedom of conscience is just. Freedom of movement is just. Mental and physical freedoms are just. Freedom is a just cause. Anyone with an Internet connection can find and read the principles of freedom.
A just cause cannot be suppressed forever. Where needed reforms are consistently blocked, revolution becomes inevitable.

Posted by: SFOD at May 6, 2007 11:09 AM

Barnaby, if there is any hatred toward adherents of a certain religion expressed by commenters at this site, it is not based on any collection of undefined prejudices. It is most likely based on the fact that these adherents are bent on our conversion, subjugation, or death; neither of which are we willing to accept.

I do not want to convert anybody, I just want them to stop waging jihad. Is that too much to ask?

Posted by: Pelayo at May 6, 2007 11:15 AM

Iran arrests student editor over insulting Islam

This was the original subject of this article, and I wanted to discuss that this is thoughtcrime in its purest form.

I can see now that it has been successfully steered away by two apologists, AKA trolls.

Posted by: Pelayo at May 6, 2007 11:24 AM

Xero G wrote: "I hope the plight of Ahmad Ghassaman will be reported on by the MSM. The media can make him into a martyr and perhaps an inspiration for other young Iranians to follow. God bless the students...may their efforts at independant thought prevail against the cult leaders."

Free newspapers, free radio stations, free broadcast networks everywhere should take up this young man's plight and make it an indictment of the Iranian regime's draconian policies with regard to freedom of speech.

But, sadly, either they are not paying attention or are unwilling to report the truth. We can't fault them too much, though, since most of the morons in this country are too busy worrying about faux conflicts on astro-turf somewhere, the latest celebrity debacle and faux repentance, or some other drivel equally putrid and trivial.

Our cowardly news media is well suited to their cowardly audiences. Most Americans don't want hard news. They want drivel, fluff and filler to distract them from the truth that a conflict is coming, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually, and all Americans will have to choose to fight for something greater than themselves, or prostrate themselves in servitude and indenturedness to Islamic supremacism.

No, the cowards of this world are survivors. They'll slander their neighbor or coworker at the church social or water cooler in an attempt to better themselves socially or financially, but won't say zip when murdering thugs parade around the globe chopping off heads and installing a "religion of peace" to promote more intolerance and violence in the name of said religion.

Damn the cowards, damn the pc apologists, damn those who know the truth and will do nothing to inform the American public because it would affect ratings or offend a portion of their audience.

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at May 6, 2007 11:27 AM

Whenever "religion" gets control of government it goes to hell.

For the human-all-too-human reason that Lord Acton noted:

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The frail, limited human mind is not capable of handling such god-like responsibilities about determining who is a "heretic" and who is "the elect" when it comes to government (secular, Earthly) power.

You always, always, always get lunacy posing as divinity.

VIZ: Islam.

(Every faith that preaches conversion went through this same "hell on Earth" phase... and all have "tamed" themselves, except Islam. "Ben" and "Barnaby" are arguing "as-if" the "un-Christian" Church in medieval times and war-like Judaism in Deuteronomy's era still applied, so they are more in need of a time machine, -or some historical perspective, and plain rationality, than any serious replies. No Cathars are being hunted by the Catholics and no Canaanites by the Hebrews. Only Islam is STILL bent on active, intolerant global domination, and if you desire to live free, it must be "tamed", and must reform itself out of the same kind of terrorism that earlier "faiths" have left behind, -or it will destroyed. By its own violent arrogance.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 6, 2007 11:42 AM

Iran arrests student editor over insulting Islam

This was the original subject of this article, and I wanted to discuss that this is thoughtcrime in its purest form.

Pelayo:

With all respect, this thoughtcrime is nothing new in Islam. Insulting Islam gets you death threats, as so many have learned in the last two decades. We see it every day. What is unique about THIS one?

That two trolls found it necessary to divert attention away from the article only proves its veracity. Unable to argue the case on its merits, they tried to change the subject. We can't ignore what they say and we can't leave their words hanging. They need to be challenged.

Posted by: PMK at May 6, 2007 12:47 PM

"Word of Shear's story traveled quickly after she forwarded an e-mail detailing her experience. She has been contacted by a number of groups, including Shatil, the New Israel Fund's Empowerment and Training Center for Social Change; Kolech, a religious women's forum; the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the legal advocacy arm of the local Reform movement; and the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA)."

I'm glad Israel has groups like these. Islam could use more groups like these.

"Then he spat in my face and at that point, I was in high adrenaline mode and called him a son-of-a-bitch, which I am not proud of."

I know I'm proud of her.

Posted by: freedomschool at May 6, 2007 1:32 PM

I've never thought of Jihad Watch as a "Supporters of Israel" site. There's much more to it than that. Militant Islam threatens more than just Israel. If this site supports anything, it's Western Civilization.

Western Civilization gives you 50 year old women who'll kick you in the nads if you tell them to get to the back of the bus. Gotta love it.

Now, as to the actual topic... I am reminded of the White Rose Society:

http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/

When I first read of these brave students, I remember thinking, well, if I were around then, I would have done something...
Well here they are and here I am. Now what to do?

Posted by: freedomschool at May 6, 2007 1:55 PM

I am not a supporter of Israel but I am a supporter of the Jewish religion because they seem so passive. Why anyone withan ounce of intelligence would choose to live anywhere near the middle eastern region is beyond me? Who cares if it is holy land. You always hear that there will never be peace in the region. Maybe that's because most of the people there are nuts, blinded and brainwashed by their beliefs. Or they are just wicked evil people in general that are killing and fighting for wealth and power. I think the latter is most likely. The world is full of evil and 99.9% of it is there.

Posted by: Barry at May 6, 2007 5:09 PM

I don't feel sorry for the student arrested. He should've kept his mouth shut and win when he had the opportunity in the future to leave for a better country where he could think and speak freely he could. Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, that whole part of the world. Maybe we would all be better off if it were uninhabitable, if you know what I mean.

Posted by: Barry at May 6, 2007 5:15 PM

"Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, that whole part of the world. Maybe we would all be better off if it were uninhabitable, if you know what I mean."

I hope by this comment you do not mean that it were all destroyed by military actions. Are you advocating genocide?

Here in the West, on television, I see something which insults the Christian faith, or is grossly immoral or peverse. I believe we would be better of if such things were BANNED, and the perpetrators arrested and charged. I do not know the details of the case in Iran, but I see many student publications here in the West were the writers SHOULD be charged with Public Nuissance, Indecent Langauge, Blasphemy, etc., etc.

Christianity has nothing to do with democracy. "Freedom of speech" is not mentioned in the Bible. For most of Christian Europe's history (until about two hundred years ago) we were not democratic. It is only since democrary and 'liberalism' has arising the the Christian faith has declined in the West.

Posted by: Barnaby at May 6, 2007 7:20 PM

Barnaby - I am going to surmise that you mean well but earlier you wrote:

"Am I more likely to interest a person in attending Church by insulting and rubbishing them, or by treating them kindly?"

Re your last comment, I would ask you - how would you hope to interest a person in the Christian faith if you were to start arresting and imprisoning people who blasphemed against Christianity? Would you be willing personally to start pointing the finger at such people in order to have them hauled off to prison? Somehow, I doubt it.

I'm not sure where you're coming from exactly. I get the general sense that you have good intentions of simply wanting all people to get along. And so you don't want to see Muslims hurt by people criticizing islam. Since anyone in the west is free to criticize Christianity with impunity, perhaps what you're trying to do is create some parity, by suggesting that we prohibit that as well, somehow thinking that that will make it all "fair" and we can avoid conflict that way.

I really don't think you've thought that one through. Are you actually suggesting that we ought to have a Christian theocracy? But if we did that, things would be even worse for Muslims. So that wouldn't accomplish your aims at all.

Rather, the best way to create parity for everyone is for anyone to be able to openly criticize islam the way people openly criticize Christianity. To date it's all one way because Christians don't kill or arrest their critics in the modern era while Muslims still do.

Of course the open Criticism of Christianity has weakened Christianity in the west. Of course the open criticism of islam will do the same for islam. That's why Muslims fight it. But if either religion has true merit, it should be able to weather that criticism. Christianity has actually weathered that criticism pretty well and is still pretty strong. Islam has never faced the same test. It needs to face that test.

It may be true that the Bible doesn't specifically address the issue of free speech (although the basis for secularism is found in "render unto Caesar what is Caeser's....") but the Bible most certainly DOES enjoin human beings to strive to be truthful and not deceitful and it seems to me that that could be construed as placing a very high virtue on the notion of trying to get at the truth of things.

Again, I really don't think you've thought this through. I get the impression that you just don't want to see human strife and so you are running to a totalitarian-type solution (arrest blasphemers of Christianity as well!) in order to solve the problem of Muslim intransigency. Bad idea!

Posted by: Caroline at May 6, 2007 9:03 PM

No, I would not like to see people arrested for simply criticising Christianity, or Islam. But, if for example, someone said something mindlessly or grossly offensive, such as a T-Shirts which reads "The Virign Mary is a Slut", which is not criticism but simply being offensive and mindless insult, then, yes, I believe they should be arrested, or at least the company producing the material should be stopped.

Or, if there is material which in cinema or television which promotes socially or morally harmful attitudes or practices (such as drug use, suicide, promiscuity, or homosexuality)then, yes, it should be banned.

Contrary to popular belief, Blashpemy and Indecency are still illegal in most Western countries, against Common Law, it is just that authorities here (in response to liberals and left-wingers) generally do not enforce these laws properly.

I do not know the details of the Iranian case, but would like to see authorities in the West realise that the protection of society and individuals (which is the purpose of Law), involves protection of moral and cultural integrity.

Posted by: Barnaby at May 6, 2007 10:30 PM

Barnaby-

Time for you move to Iran.

In a free country, one free person has the right to criticize (and even mock) the "Idol" of another free person.

One free person's "God" may be another free person's "Idol".

If you can't handle having your beliefs disbelieved, you belong in a theocracy.

Boorish behavior is to be criticized back, not banned.

Unless it becomes violent.

As with Islam's jihad.

(Humorlessness is the first refuge of tyrants. The thinnest-skinned species in creation. Who have to erect prison walls for their epidermis.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 6, 2007 11:07 PM

Well, the Catholic Church is a theocracy, and it is the world's oldest surviving government.

I think the benfits of a Christian theocracy may well outweigh the negatives. Sure, a few dealers in pornography, prostitutes and abortionists would be disadvantaged (but they could find other jobs- and may even be better off). On the plus side, our children would have a normal and decent society in which to grow up. And would this be so bad?

After all, the US is "one nation united under God", and the Head of State of the UK, H.M. the Queen, is "Queen by the Grace of God", and "Defender of the Faith." In the UK, a number of Bishops are also entitled (without election) to seats in the Upper House of Parliament.

The European Principality of Andorra has a Bishop as a joint Head of State, and the Vatican has the His Holiness the Pope as Head of State, and both seem to work quite well.

Posted by: Barnaby at May 7, 2007 1:07 AM

"The reason they are Muslims, is obviously that they were born into a particular faith and/or culture"

"Posted by: Barnaby

.....The reason they remain Muslims is because the Islamic terrorists will kill them if they choose not to remain Muslim....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 7, 2007 10:57 AM

Regarding the poster calling himself "Barnaby" :

He appears to be extremely morally confused, yet lectures posters here as a pious moralist:

"Well, the Catholic Church is a theocracy, and it is the world's oldest surviving government..."

He certainly might consider reacquainting himself with the Western definitions of a "government" and a "church" for starters.

Posters such as this eventually show themselves to be just as intellectually blinkered and rigid as any of the bad actors within Islam which we criticise here...

He states: "if for example, someone said something mindlessly or grossly offensive ... then, yes, I believe they should be arrested..."

So after doses of pious lectures and attempts at moral equivalency where there is absolutely none, this poster proceeds to pose here as a tolerant open minded defender of rights. But with bald pronouncements like that quoted above, he's clearly no better than any Muslim bigot, or any anti-American fascist of any stripe for, that matter...

Giving such posters the benefit of the doubt as to intelligence, I severely doubt their sincerity when they post in this manner at JihadWatch.

If he is truly sincere about what he "believes", then I question his true motivation for posting comments like the ones above. Again, assuming he's operating from a position of conviction and belief, then I think he's really here in a dissembling fashion, perhaps with the sole goal of disrupting this site. Flaming a site such as this with the string of comments such as those he makes above is quite sinister.

And endless attempts by such posters to morally equate Islam with Christianity are utterly wrong. Attempts to equate Islam's long murderous history of Jihad with that of the West and Christianity are also utterly wrong and foolish. Attempts to create parallelism between the legacy of accomplishments within Islam with the accomplishements of the West and our Greco-Roman Judeo Christian heritage is a grave injustice to the West. It is an insult of the highest order.

I say all of this, not as an offended Christian, but as an offended agnostic Westerner who has become extremely fatigued by all the rudderless Western fools who manifest "Barnaby's" peculiar brand of righteous sanctimony and self loathing.

Posted by: jsla at May 7, 2007 6:56 PM