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Jihad against wildlife. "Poaching for Bin Laden," by Adrian Levy and Cathy Scott-Clark for The Guardian:
It is so early in the morning that the cooks in the roadside dhabas along India's National Highway 37 are asleep in their kitchens, their tandoors unlit. Across the valley of Assam, in this far north-easterly corner of India, there is not a flicker of light except the feeble yellow beams from the Gypsies, the open-backed vehicles carrying small groups of tourists to the edge of one of the world's most bountiful jungles. Kaziranga - 429 sq km of forest, sandbanks and grassland - was recognised by Unesco in 1985 as a world heritage site. Tourists come in their thousands to glimpse some of the 480 species of bird, 34 kinds of mammal and 42 varieties of fish, many rare, endangered or near extinct, that inhabit this remote jungle.
In recent times, however, the wildlife has attracted a new kind of visitor. According to India's security services, police, intelligence analysts, local traders and forestry officials, Islamic militants affiliated to al-Qaida are sponsoring poaching in the reserve for profit. These groups have established bases in the formerly moderate enclave of Bangladesh and have agents operating all along the country's porous 2,500-mile border with India. They have gone into business with local animal trappers and organised crime syndicates around Kaziranga - as well as in parks and reserves in Nepal, Burma and Thailand - in a quest for horns, ivory, pelts and other animal products with which to raise "under the wire" funds that they can move around the world invisibly.
A small rhino horn, the size of a bag of sugar, with good provenance (the beast's tail and ears, presented to a prospective buyer) and in the right marketplace (in Asia, Europe or North America), can fetch £20,000. Big cat pelts can go for up to £10,000. Monkey brains, bear bile, musk, big cat carcasses, elephant feet, tails, horns and teeth have considerable value. A shipment worth £2.8m was recently intercepted by UK customs. Profits from the trade run from $15bn to an incredible $25bn a year, according to estimates from the WWF (formerly the World Wide Fund for Nature). The punishment for trading in these items is generally a fine as low as £300 in India and £900 in Nepal.
A senior Indian security source, based in the north-east, who has tracked the incursion into the trade by Bangladeshi militants, warns that the poaching has global consequences. "There is an environmental disaster in the offing here, but as pressing are the security ramifications," he says. "Only a minuscule percentage of the vast profits need to trickle back into a nascent Islamic insurgency in a country like Bangladesh to bring it to the boil. And then it can reach out around the world."
[...]
One man says, "We are for hire. We can trap and shoot, but when the summer rain comes, the river breaks its banks and the animals float to us." Another adds, "We patrol the park's border, too; when the animals wander out, we are there." He pulls from his pocket an unidentifiable animal claw.
[...]
What do they poach? "Whatever we can and whatever we are asked for." The money is in rhino horn and elephant tusks, the latter taking advantage of a black hole in the forestry department's record-keeping. While the rhino population remains closely monitored, no accurate records are kept for elephants. The forestry department estimates that 170 were poached over a six-year period, but the sand bar people claim a figure almost double that.
From whom do they take orders? The villagers look stony-faced. They talk among themselves. "The Tibetans and Chinese are big men in this," says one, "but we are all from Bangladesh. Bangladeshis dominate the network now." Are they talking only about those living in India, or about orders coming from over the border, too? They shrug and mumble, clearly distressed. We should talk to an agent they name in a nearby city. They cannot tell us any more.
[...]
A trader from Siliguri with betel-red teeth tells the same story. "This was a Chinese business but now it's Bangladesh's business. It's become God's work," he says, raising an eyebrow. "And, as you know, the Prophet, peace be upon his head, is irresistible."
It all began two years ago. Says the haulier,"A friend in common at a local mosque [in West Bengal] passed me a message saying representatives working for two militia groups in Bangladesh wanted a meet in a madrassah [seminary] in Siliguri."
A trader with an import-export company near to the India-Bangladesh border explains: "They came to us because we are the same as them," he says. "The hauliers and money men behind the wildlife trade are of Bangladeshi origin. The poachers, too. All of us can move freely over the border. We look right. Talk the same. They wanted in. Small, valuable commodities - horn, teeth, pelts - fetch incredible prices and are easy to conceal among legitimate export goods. Also, something truly valuable can be used to borrow against, to secure a line of credit."
The traditional methods by which anyone wishing to raise and transport money invisibly were through nominal charities, the gold market and the global unofficial banking system known as hawala. But these were heavily disrupted after September 11 2001, the traders say. New channels were needed.
Three of those who claimed to have been at the meeting two years ago say they knew exactly whom the agents worked for in Bangladesh: Al Mujahideen, an obscure jihadist umbrella organisation governing a panoply of militant groups that have sprung up in Bangladesh in recent years. Two in particular, both banned by the Bangladeshi government, were in need of money and eager to get into the racket, said Siliguri traders. One was Harkat-ul-Jihad-al- Islami (HuJI), allegedly linked to al-Qaida; the second was Jama'atul Mujahideen Bangladesh (JMB), whose leader, Shaikh Abdur Rahman, had joined Bin Laden's World Islamic Front for the Jihad Against the Jews and the Crusaders in 1998. He was captured in Bangladesh and in March was hanged for the killing of two Bangladeshi judges and for nationwide bombings in 2005.
[...]
We ask him about the new jihadi component in the trade. "We hear things but we have no hard facts. The rhino horns are used to buy guns and bombs, we are told. The guys we catch, what can they tell us? The colour of the shirt worn by the guy who paid them off."
In December, Boro's men tracked a gang of poachers to their tents. They had fled but left behind a new, modern tranquilliser gun and darts. "They used to shoot at rhinos, but the crack of the bullet is a problem as it carries far and we will hear. Some place poison. Others pull down power lines and try to electrocute the animals. However, recently they have come here with silencers. We are finding increasingly sophisticated weapons."
The poaching figures for Kaziranga were stark until very recently. As many as 48 rhinos a year were being killed for their horn, a figure comparable to about 2% of the total population in Assam. The state is classified as a "disturbed area", with a stubborn and often bloody secessionist movement desperate to break free from New Delhi. Militants have been fighting for 27 years and 10,000 lives have been lost. Recently, as peace talks began, there was a lull, then an insurgency blew up in Nepal. Boro says, "Through better organisation among the rangers and better stability in Assam, the gangs laid off us and started attacking Nepal, which also has rhino." Then he adds dourly, "We cannot count on peace."
Shortly before we arrived in Assam in February, seven Hindi-speaking labourers were shot dead at one of the state's brick kilns. A railway bridge was blown up, just missing a crowded train. Masked gunmen attacked six labourers' colonies in the northern districts of Dibrugarh and Tinsukia, killing 48 Indian settlers. Another eight people, including police officers, died when their vehicle hit a roadside mine in the central Karbi Anglong district. It was the state's worst violence in a decade, all the killings perpetrated by the United Liberation Front of Assam. An indefinite curfew was imposed while the Indian security forces combed the jungle for rebel camps and forest rangers hid themselves among the trees, waiting, resignedly, for the opportunists to arrive. Whether it's an independence struggle in Assam or an al-Qaida terror campaign, the outlook is perilous for the wildlife of Kaziranga.
Posted by Marisol at May 6, 2007 7:31 AM
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The Chinese/al-Queda connection here is interesting.
Posted by: PapaBear![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 6, 2007 8:21 AM
The Chinese/al-Queda connection here is interesting.
Posted by: PapaBear
Yes, it is.
Islam is like a shambling zombie, relatively clumsy, stupid and harmless - unless the potential victim is its path and within reach (well, according to the movies).
I reckon the communists have grabbed the zombie by the shoulders, turned it around to face the West, given it a crack on the arse and a good shove in our direction.
And now the shambling Islamic zombie approaches - shuffling feet, swinging rotting arms, and an appetite for "Bbrrraaaiiins".
at May 6, 2007 8:46 AM
We hope the "greens" of Europe will reconsider their pro- Islamist bent!
Posted by: David England at May 6, 2007 8:47 AM
In the name of Allah: poaching, tanzanite trade (don't buy ANY tanzanite for any reason as they control the worldwide market), and drugs.
How is ANYBODY going to explain this kind of behavior to God and expect a favorable hearing?
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at May 6, 2007 9:11 AM
David England,
We hope the "greens" of Europe will reconsider their pro- Islamist bent!
I expect it'll happen the same time the treatment of women in the Islamic world gets the "feminists" of Europe to do the same.
Posted by: ZionistYoungster at May 6, 2007 9:14 AM
This time they have gone too far. I can sit by while they kill innocent women and children, Slaughter our military and drag them through the streets, twelve yr olds beheading infidels, and women being stoned because someone said they were seen with a man by themsleves, but killing of animals that are on the endangered list now that can not be tolerated!
Posted by: MadMom at May 6, 2007 9:59 AM
If you wish you can look at the heart rending pictures of these slaughtered animals.
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/
I'm sure they were not killed humanely by these Muslims.
What can one say about Islam and its adherents? English is a very good language but the depravity of Islam is making the English language inadequate to describe such gory scenes. That is why these pictures are essential to be posted around the globe.
Posted by: DP111 at May 6, 2007 10:12 AM
We need a modern version of the Lincoln Brigade, which opposed fascism in the Spanish Civil War, to go to places like the Indian border to help out against the jihadis.
The bright side of this story is that they actually need the money, so something's working right.
at May 6, 2007 10:15 AM
perhaps the islamist can find the rarest animal in all the world, "the moderate muslim", he can be seen on tv and heard on the radio, but actually finding one in life is so rare, the price on their head must be tremendously high.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at May 6, 2007 10:24 AM
Just when I think I can't find any new reasons to be further disgusted by Islamists....
Posted by: Foehammer at May 6, 2007 10:48 AM
There is traffic in these animals because ignorant, superstitious people believe these body parts can cure stuff like impotence. Westerners produce Viagra. Ignorant, superstitious people (not limited to Muslims) consume monkey brains. Here is an article about the market for such products in Indonesia:
http://www.mongabay.com/external/monkey_brains.htm
My favorite part of the article:
"Perhaps most brutal of all is the treatment of the long-tail macaques. Some believe that eating the monkeys' brains can cure impotence. The practice has led to over-hunting, says ProFauna, which has campaigned against the slaughter.
"Some establishments serve macaque at a special table with a hole in the center. The monkey is tied up and the top of its skull cut open with one slice of a sharp knife. The animal, still alive, is placed under the table so its head protrudes like a bowl. Arrack, a powerful native alcohol, is sometimes poured into the skull and mixed with the brain."
Shades of Hannibal Lecter (in the sequel). So much for the myth of the noble savage.
I wonder when the patent for Viagra will be up and a cheaper generic comes on line? When it does, one way to combat the market for this stuff would be to donate large quantities of the generic to these people. It's not just Muslims. Some Koreans hang dogs and slowly beat them to death because they believe that the meat of the dog who dies in fear acquires a special potency which is good for impotence.
Posted by: Caroline at May 6, 2007 11:18 AM
Rhinos, killed for their horn, are one of the most endangered animals on this list, and the reason: Yemenis prefer their knife handles to be made from rhino horn.
So the extinction of a species is less important to them than having a "cool" knife.
I wonder what those knives are used for?
Any Koran verses come to mind?
Posted by: profitsbeard at May 6, 2007 11:19 AM
Kill gays, batter and mutilate and subjugate women, censor free thought ruthlessly in the name of a 7th century religion, slaughter endangered species. The 'progressive' side.
Posted by: poetcomic1 at May 6, 2007 11:57 AM
In the name of Allah: poaching, tanzanite trade (don't buy ANY tanzanite for any reason as they control the worldwide market), and drugs.
How is ANYBODY going to explain this kind of behavior to God and expect a favorable hearing?
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair
Very simple. This is also the god whose messenger told them to kill all their fellow human beings unless they converted to the religion of the warlord god. They're killing animals to further their crusade. They'll not only get a favorable hearing, they'll be welcomed into heaven with open arms. Jihad is jihad is jihad.
Posted by: PMK at May 6, 2007 12:17 PM
Profitsbeard: "So the extinction of a species is less important to them than having a "cool" knife."
I imagine its the transferred "power" from the rhino they think they are getting with that handle. In other words, it bolsters their ego. Same with the impotence cures. The male ego seeking the cure for impotence blinds them to the animal suffering. It's about the ego, which is the root of human evil. Buddhism and Christianity appear to try to suppress the human ego (e.g. "the meek shall inherit the earth"). Given that islam means submission, one would think that it would aim for a similar goal - to suppress the evil of the human ego. But instead it has the opposite effect of enhancing the Muslim ego. Clearly Muhammad got something wrong when he borrowed from Christianity. Being the false prophet and egoist that he was, he utterly missed the point. Monotheism was “lost in translation” through Mo’s ego. Mo became a “little God”. As Ali Sina has so astutely pointed out, Muslims now share in his narcissism and have become a bunch of little God’s on earth. Or rather, little, egoistic devils.
at May 6, 2007 12:18 PM
I though that the islam is a threat to mankind, but they proved that islam is a great threat to entire living things. We must stop islam.
Posted by: Shivakumar at May 6, 2007 12:21 PM
The words of a poacher
A trader from Siliguri with betel-red teeth tells the same story. "This was a Chinese business but now it's Bangladesh's business. It's become God's work," he says, raising an eyebrow. "And, as you know, the Prophet, peace be upon his head, is irresistible."http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/
View the pictures on the above site, and please post the link elsewhere. Words are inadequate to describe this savagery.
Posted by: DP111 at May 6, 2007 12:29 PM
The words of a poacher
A trader from Siliguri with betel-red teeth tells the same story. "This was a Chinese business but now it's Bangladesh's business. It's become God's work," he says, raising an eyebrow. "And, as you know, the Prophet, peace be upon his head, is irresistible."
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/
View the pictures on the above site, and please post the link elsewhere. Words are inadequate to describe this savagery.
Posted by: DP111 at May 6, 2007 12:29 PM
"Poaching for Bin Laden," by Adrian Levy and Cathy Scott-Clark.
Wrong - they are poaching not for Bin Laden but for allah and the merciless prophet. This is confirmed by the words of a poacher.
The Guardian is being economical with the truth. Still, one has to give credit to them for bringing this macarbe savagery to light.
Posted by: DP111 at May 6, 2007 12:39 PM
Bring us bin Laden. His body will fetch US $50M.
Posted by: Allahfanculo at May 6, 2007 1:12 PM
Mike W posted:
"I reckon the communists have grabbed the zombie by the shoulders, turned it around to face the West, given it a crack on the arse and a good shove in our direction.
And now the shambling Islamic zombie approaches - shuffling feet, swinging rotting arms, and an appetite for "Bbrrraaaiiins".
We should send the eco-terrorists back at them in the same way
Time to arm Greenpeace and PETA
Posted by: freedomschool at May 6, 2007 1:14 PM
After a short scan of this columm posting, I know now that Islam does not have its own verson of St. Francis of Assisi.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 6, 2007 1:17 PM
Are you people all in an uproar because:
A) this sort of poaching is wrong?
B) this sort of poaching to support islam is wrong?
(These are my wife's question. Two years and I still can't get across that these people want to kill US)
at May 6, 2007 1:20 PM
"Any Koran verses come to mind?"
Here is what I found :
"The Holy Prophet was asked by his companions if kindness to animals was rewarded in the life hereafter. He replied: Yes, there is a meritorious reward for kindness to every living creature." (Bukhari)
"There is not an animal on earth, nor a bird that flies on its wings - but they are communities like you." (The Qur'an, 6:38)
"The Holy Prophet said : "One who kills even a sparrow or anything smaller, without a justifiable reason, will be answerable to Allah." When asked what would be a justifiable reason, he replied: 'to slaughter it for food - not to kill and discard it." (ahmad and Al-Nasai)
"The Holy Prophet told of a prostitute who, on a hot summer day, saw a thirsty dog hovering around a well, lolling his tongue. She lowered her socks down the well and watered the dog. Allah forgave al her sins [for this one act of kindness]." (Muslim)
"The Holy Prophet narrated a vision in which he saw a woman being chastised after death because she had confined a cat during her life on earth without feeding and watering it, or even letting it free so that it could feed itself." (Muslim)
"The Holy Prophet forbade the beating or the branding of animals. Once he saw a donkey branded on its face and said: "may Allah condemn the one who branded it." (Muslim)
So why are certain Muslims poaching ? Well the short answer is that they do not follow the precepts of Islam. They are hypocrites.
Why are certain Christians poaching? They do not follow the precepts of Christianity. They are hypocrites.
In each religious kingdom, you will always have your lot of evil-doers, and in each a lot who do good. Trying to associate every little evil, every little murder to Islam or to Christianity is the work of hypocrites who profit from confrontation.
at May 6, 2007 1:28 PM
Gary,
Please tell your wife that poaching is wrong, but that the poaching done by the Islamists is also dangerous. The money isn't going to feed and support hungry villagers. It's going to people whose ultimate aim is to subdue her.
The people in the West who prize animal skins or horns of protected species because they are rare can no longer justify their acts by saying they are only buying what others are willing to sell them. They are also supporting a criminal element that will eventually kill them. If saving the rhino wasn't enough to get them to cease trafficking in rhinoceros horns, how about saving themselves and their children?
Posted by: PMK at May 6, 2007 1:52 PM
Sublimer
When asked what would be a justifiable reason, he replied: 'to slaughter it for food - not to kill and discard it." (ahmad and Al-Nasai)
Hypocrisy is not the issue here. Lawlessness is.
Ask any of the Islamists and they'll most likely tell you that "food" for the jihad is a good reason to slaughter an animal. They're not discarding the animal. They are using it to further their jihad. Allah would not have given it to them for any other reason.
What precepts of Christianity prohibit poaching? Can you cite verses?
Posted by: PMK at May 6, 2007 1:58 PM
I would have hoped that Christianity was against poaching. Even if there aren't any specific verses regarding poaching in the bible, I would suppose, from Christ's teachings on earth, that he would be against such an abhorrent act. Don't you think ?
Regarding whether it is hypocrisy or lawlessness, I'd say it is both. It's lawless of course, but it is also hypocritical as long as the Islamists think they are following the teachings of Islam. The precept that the end justifies the means is Machiavellic but it is not Muslim, and that is what separates Islam from Islamism.
One more thing. You say that they might eat it (which it is justifiable) but not necessarily discard it. This is a good point, but in Islam eating elephants, monkeys, or rhinoceros is as forbidden as eating dogs, cats or pigs.
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 2:10 PM
sublimer-
I was thinking more of the Koranic verse:
"...strike at their necks..."
(Since I was referring to knives.)
Clearly the only verses that apply to miltant
Islamists are those that favor the violent jihad, and everything (men and animals) can be destroyed as long as it serves the aim of the violent jihad.
Because "...oppression is more evil than war...", as the Koran states.
And all means to end "oppression" (which means: the very existence of any un-conquered infidels) are justified. Even driving animals to extinction to fund the jihad.
After all, Allah can make new ones from nothing if he wants, right? Inshallah?
And no "Christian" poaches for Jesus. If they are nominally "Christian", they are doing it for mere greed, which is a Christian "sin". (One of the "Seven Deadly Sins" as a matter of fact.)
Your attempt at any equivalence here is mere equivocating.
Islam is bent attaining a global theocratic gulag.
Other religions have been tamed/tamed themselves from this imperialistic urge. And from cruelty to beasts ("good shepherd", "wise steward", etc.).
Islam is still wild.
And the wild animals of the world are also their prey.
Along with anyone who opposes Islam's call to violence to expand the "faith".
None of Mohammad's quoted decencies (about animals or charity) are allowed to stand in the way of his overwhelming call to dominate the world. The more peaceful aspects are rendered "abrogated" by the more serious battlecry to jihad.
Once the jihad is successul (God help us), then the weaker aspects of Islam (tithing, giving water to a thirsty dog, not starving a cat to death through neglect, et al) may be allowed to be re-considered (along with our concern, here, i.e.: not driving animals to their doom, etc.).
Meanwhile, war trumps all.
I see no calls from imams and mullahs against this trade.
Only the West has set up the SPCA's and PETA's and World Wildlife Funds, etc. And has banned trafficking in ivory, tried to stop whaling, forbade selling endangered pelts, etc. on the open market.
Where is Islam in this?
Too busy killing infidels and worrying about cartoons and murdering their sisters for "honor" and blowing up their Sunni and Shi'ite cousins over 1300 year old disputes.
Time for Islam to reform the violence out, or perish of it.
Where is the St. Francis of Mecca?
The Mother Theresa oif Medina?
Posted by: profitsbeard at May 6, 2007 2:13 PM
Posted by Sublimer
"There is not an animal on earth, nor a bird that flies on its wings - but they are communities like you." (The Qur'an, 6:38)
You where careful not to mention about
Geckos,Snakes and Salamanders
In Muslim culture geckos, snakes, and other reptiles as well as insects are considered to be ugly, dangerous, vicious, but also powerful and often ambivalent.
In Hadith literature, it is reported from Mohammed that he issued advice to kill the sinful (fawasiq) animal even within the holy area of Mecca.
It is reported that Mohammed commanded geckos to be killed and called them 'little noxious creatures'.
Mohammed declared that Salamanders are mischief-doers and should be killed
You also over looked what your false profteer had to say about dogs
While on the subject of dogs,Islam has nothing to offer us what we cannot achieve without islam, where as dogs are able to offer many services.Such as search and rescue,leading the blind,and also detect sickness such as cancer.
Dogs can be trusted,where as a muslim cannot,so within our society dogs have more value than muslims
-------------------------------------------------Posted by: DP111
View the pictures on the above site, and please post the link elsewhere. Words are inadequate to describe this savagery.
I thought I was pretty hardend after some of the pix I have blogged over the years,but when I found these pix I was very upset.
Here is a more direct link
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/05/and-you-thought-they-could-not-sink.html
at May 6, 2007 2:45 PM
It's become God's work," he says, raising an eyebrow. "And, as you know, the Prophet, peace be upon his head, is irresistible."
Matt: But babe, this is Jake and Elwood, the Blues Brothers.
Aretha: The Blues Brothers?! Shit, they still owe you money, fool!
Jake: Ma'am, would it make you feel any better if you knew that what we're asking Matt here to do was a holy thing?
Elwood: You see, we're on a mission from God.
at May 6, 2007 2:51 PM
I was thinking more of the Koranic verse:
"...strike at their necks..."
-- Thinking can also be selective. Robert Spencer teaches you well.
Clearly the only verses that apply to miltant
Islamists are those that favor the violent jihad, and everything (men and animals) can be destroyed as long as it serves the aim of the violent jihad.
-- I completely agree with you. The violent jihadis don't think about their religion. They think about their goal (which is political), and thus, they too select from the koran the verses that will further their argument.
Because "...oppression is more evil than war...", as the Koran states.
-- Oppression can be worse than war. Sometimes war is worse than oppression. It depends on which side of the fence you lie. Are you the oppressor or the victim. In New Hampshire, we also say "Live free or die". Is that jihadi ?
And all means to end "oppression" (which means: the very existence of any un-conquered infidels) are justified. Even driving animals to extinction to fund the jihad.
-- Cosmological explanations can be paranoid. Islam took a pause for several centuries only to wake up again and finish conquering the rest of the world. As if islam has one mind. That's what we used to say about the Jewry during the early 20th century.
After all, Allah can make new ones from nothing if he wants, right? Inshallah?
-- I didn't know that the Koran was expanding as we spoke. People might develop new murderous precepts for them, but are they Islamic or Koranic ?
And no "Christian" poaches for Jesus. If they are nominally "Christian", they are doing it for mere greed, which is a Christian "sin". (One of the "Seven Deadly Sins" as a matter of fact.)
-- Greed is indeed a sin in Christianity. Long live capitalism. /s
Your attempt at any equivalence here is mere equivocating.
-- I still believe that both religions are against poaching.
Islam is bent attaining a global theocratic gulag.
-- The Jihadis, yes. Islam is not a person. It doesn't have a mind.
Other religions have been tamed/tamed themselves from this imperialistic urge. And from cruelty to beasts ("good shepherd", "wise steward", etc.).
-- Today, Christian missionaries do exist and proselytize very peacefully. Imperialism is mostly economic and military today. The U.S. has bases all around the world. Since "good shepherd" and "wise steward" Christian proselytism was not always peaceful. Consider the inquisition and the "mission civilisatrice" in Africa.
Islam is still wild.
-- It is also vague, unpredictable, dark...in your mind. You should study it more and i would urge you to visit a Muslim country. It will change your whole perspective.
And the wild animals of the world are also their prey.
-- Now you're just going crazy. I can just picture the crazy Mooslims running after the animals trying to kill them.
Along with anyone who opposes Islam's call to violence to expand the "faith".
-- Again, here I think you mean Jihadis.
None of Mohammad's quoted decencies (about animals or charity) are allowed to stand in the way of his overwhelming call to dominate the world. The more peaceful aspects are rendered "abrogated" by the more serious battlecry to jihad.
-- The terms "abrogation" and "taqqiya" are the battlecry of people like you who believe that Islam is inherently evil and inherently proned to deception. We also used to say that Jews constantly lie and that it is allowed by their religion. Check : Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies"
Once the jihad is successul (God help us), then the weaker aspects of Islam (tithing, giving water to a thirsty dog, not starving a cat to death through neglect, et al) may be allowed to be re-considered (along with our concern, here, i.e.: not driving animals to their doom, etc.).
-- You agree with me. From your argument, you deduce that Jihad is the opposite of Islam. Once the Jihad rules, Islam will not be followed.
Meanwhile, war trumps all.
-- Is that what the Jihadis believe, or is that your personal maxim ?
I see no calls from imams and mullahs against this trade.
-- There are a lot of violent and radical imams and mullahs. Unfortunately sensationalist news sources like fox news and this website only allow you to see them.
Only the West has set up the SPCA's and PETA's and World Wildlife Funds, etc. And has banned trafficking in ivory, tried to stop whaling, forbade selling endangered pelts, etc. on the open market.
Where is Islam in this?
-- Check the country members of international wild life organizations. You'll be surprised. Why did the west set these up. Long live capitalism ! More of these organizations will show up due to global warming. Why is there global warming. Long live capitalism !
Too busy killing infidels and worrying about cartoons and murdering their sisters for "honor" and blowing up their Sunni and Shi'ite cousins over 1300 year old disputes.
-- I know they don't even have time to pray, eat, go to work or school. It's a constant war of all against all. No wonder you are scared of islam when that's the image the media feeds you. 1300 years of sunni shiite war. That's one of Spencer's big lies. Please challenge him on that. See what he says.
Time for Islam to reform the violence out, or perish of it.
-- I agree. Reform for more peace is always good, whether at the personal or communal level.
Where is the St. Francis of Mecca?
-- Check Averroes. Thomas Aquinas respectfully called him the "Commentator". or Ibn Al Arabi.
The Mother Theresa oif Medina?
-- Check Rabia al adawiyya
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 2:52 PM
Shiva,
You said : "in Muslim culture...."
I completely agree with you. While I didn't know that geckos and salamanders and lizards were hated, I did know that dogs are usually considered dirty.
But that is as you said : "in Muslim culture". Not in Islam. Same way there is a difference between Christian culture and Christianity.
In French, Islam is written in two ways : islam and Islam. islam is the religion and Islam is the culture. English might need the same nuance.
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 2:58 PM
'No wonder you are scared of islam when that's the image the media feeds you.'~ sublimer
What the hell? What planet's media are YOU watching? Western media falls all over itself to NOT show us such images. They even go so far as to LIE about the reality by putting up idiocies such as the recent of episode of (what was it, Crossing Jordan?)... 'It is a bad time to be arab in America.' What bullshit. Western media is more afraid of Christianity.
at May 6, 2007 3:10 PM
sublimer posted:
"In each religious kingdom, you will always have your lot of evil-doers, and in each a lot who do good. Trying to associate every little evil, every little murder to Islam or to Christianity is the work of hypocrites who profit from confrontation."
Who exactly are you accusing? Neither the original writers nor Marisol (who posted it here) are saying "The Koran made them do it." They are just pointing out another way that the jihadis are being funded.
Posted by: freedomschool at May 6, 2007 3:14 PM
freedomschool,
I agree with you. The koran didn't make them do it. I was answering a post by profitsbeard who wanted to know what the koran said on the matter.
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 3:47 PM
All I can say is: Allez Sarkozy!!!!!
Posted by: Allahfanculo at May 6, 2007 3:53 PM
Let's avoid overthinking this...
It's good news...it shows the fact that they would stoop to anything to get money-it means their usual sources for money are drying up and they're getting desperate (no money, no jihad-you don't seriously think their captive audience would bother without some payoff-follow the money), which also means more good news-our efforts to dry up their funds by freezing assets is working...hitting them where it hurts.
Quite right mike & papabear...the china connection has been unmistakable for some time, especially since the playbook was in print 2 years before 9/11 (including the battle tactics)
http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&Product_ID=889&CATID=13&GroupID=58&CFID=3787659&CFTOKEN=5da8213a25b34e9b-62FE1B5E-1372-63AB-A5995FB3A2743C43
and shows beyond doubt the gameplan, and the players involved, both overt...and covert.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/24/143618.shtml
Bottom line for this thread...this is good news for us, bad news for them.
:-)
at May 6, 2007 4:06 PM
"Jihadists poaching rare animals to raise funds"
Of course they are!
Because evil generates more evil; and like the mafia, jihadist-junkies are an organized crime wave of "thugs" who will stop at nothing to make a buck to feed allah's insatiable need for human sacrifice.
Islam = Oraganized Crime endorsed by a satanic moon god.
Posted by: champ at May 6, 2007 4:14 PM
Glad ya mentioned that, champ...
...the moon (phases) is yet another dead giveaway of their battleplans...but that's another thread.
at May 6, 2007 4:18 PM
sublimer-
Jihad is the instrument of the Koranic domination of all who refuse to submit to Islam.
Slowly ("peacefully") when they cannot implement it quickly (violently, through the sword).
I was being ironic in my original question (about what the Koran teaches... having read it in various translations, I know its essential intent: the supression of freedom of thought, primarily, starting from the first sentence: "This book is not to be doubted"... which, as an agnostic, is patent nonsense and menticide to me), but I guess that escaped you.
If peaceful Muslims had any sense of decency, or even basic survival instincts, they would be crushing the jihadists from within.
But they are more like silent enablers who allow their religion to be turned into a vehicle of terror (as all previous conversion-oriented faiths suffered through until reform and enlightenment tamed them).
Averroes is long dead and has no particular adherents today.
I meant living. (Or recently living, like Mother Theresa.)
Or at least a living symbol (as St. Francis is, meaning: where is a Muslim film like "Brother Sun, Sister Moon", or a "Never Cry Wolf", etc., promoting a peaceful vision OF ANYTHING coming from the Islamic/Koranic worldview?).
I'm not worried about the non-jihadists, except as the "sea" in which these malignant "fish" swim (to use Mao's analogy).
If Islam lets its maniacs define it, it will be seens as a dangerous, irrational and violent creed.
Which is what presents itself, worldwide, when its militant members gain power. (See Sunnis and Shi'ite blowing each other up, or see: the Iran-Iraq war, or see Algeria, or see: The Taliban; or see: Saudi Arabia, which bans all other faiths, ad nauseam).
Greedy "Capitalism" is not "Christian". It is an economic theory. (If capitalists tithed and were "good stewards", it would not necessaarily be harmful.)
Violent "Jihadism" is Koranic/Islamic.
It is nothing but tyrannical, totalitarian and anti-intelectual.
Let's not try to confuse things unnecessarily.
at May 6, 2007 4:28 PM
"These groups have established bases in the formerly moderate enclave of Bangladesh"
-- from the article above
Oh for god's sake. "Moderate" compared to what? The razakars of Bangladesh, during the 1970-71 war? The people who have arrested and would love to execute Mr. Choudhry, the Bangladeshi journalist who dared to say a kind word for Israel? Those who are fighting the Awami League? Those who beat Hindus to death when they happen to be passing a mosque just as Friday Prayers let out (you can find the pictures on-line)? Those who have persecuted many, and murdered some Hindus, Christians and Buddhists (in the Chittagong Hills), driving them into West Bengal? Those Muslims who have themselves brought Muslim fervor into West Bengal, where the leftist local government has done nothing to prevent them from entering?
What "moderate enclave"?
The usual nonsense.
Posted by: Hugh at May 6, 2007 5:22 PM
sublimer
Muslim culture is Islam the same as Islam is muslim culture
While I didn't know that geckos and salamanders and lizards were hated,
Well should learn a little more about what your prophet said before you come here with your half truths
Geckos normally like to live in house,and the feed of rats mice and other vermin,and living in the tropics,as I do,I have no objection to have them as guests.
Dog are no dirtier than humans,but they have proved they are more benefical to mankind than muslims and Islam.
Also I would like to point out there is a famous breed of dog that come from the Arabian Penninsular.
Arabian Bedouins have been breeding Salukis for thousands of years. These desert hounds, known for their exceptional stamina, intelligence and loyalty are highly prized by the Bedouins. Known by the Bedouins as Wind Drinker, Daughter of the Tent, Son of the Desert, Desert Eye, the Bedouins even allow them to share their tents.
Hamad Al Ghanem, a Dubai businessman and Saluki breeder, possibly knows more about the Arabian tradition of breeding Salukis than anyone. Hamad comes from a well-known and respected Bahraini family who have become famous in the region for breeding Salukis.
Hamad Al Ghanem’s family have been breeding the Aseel Salukis – the purest breed of Arabian hounds, for over 7 decades. The family tradition of Saluki breeding has been passed from fathers to sons for many generations, and to own one of the exceptional Al Ghanem Salukis is the privilege of the noblest Arabian families, as well as many fortunate people across the globe.
Through the civilisations, the saluki maintained its importance as a coursing (chasing) hound. The Egyptians called them the Royal Dogs of Egypt, and only the nobility were permitted to have them. Mummified remains of Saluki hounds have been discovered in tombs with their masters.
From the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia, traders carried the Saluki throughout the Middle East where they became the treasured hounds of the nomadic tribes – the Bedouins. The Bedouins carefully bred Salukis for thousands of years with speed endurance in mind, and they presented them as gifts to kings and nobles in other lands
So much for your comment that dogs are dirty.Where I live I witness muslims shitting in small streams and rivers where other muslims down stream are bathing and washing their clothes, because Sharia dictates that muslims must shit into running water.
I see Muslim washing their feet in urinals in the public toilets before going to prayers.Not bad for the muslims who are in the front line when praying.
So dont come here and say dogs are dirty.
I know what it is like in cities like Jakarta when they have had very heavy rain and the sewers over flow
at May 6, 2007 5:56 PM
And as for the muslim/chinse connection, it has been there for a long time.
The Goldn triangle drug trade was controlled by the the Chinese muslims,who are now the dominant factor in Chang-Mai in northern Thialand
Posted by: shiva at May 6, 2007 6:07 PM
Shiva,
You sure do know a lot about dogs. I never said dogs were dirty. I said I know that a lot of Muslims think dogs to bed dirty. At least that's how it is in North Africa. Maybe they treat them like royal princes in the Arabian peninsula or by the shit filled rivers by where you live. Is it India ? There are a lot of cultural differences within the Muslim world. And if you cannot distinguish between religion and culture, you might be beyond help. Sorry.
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 6:28 PM
Gary
We are against poaching, because poaching is illegal. If the authorities in question permitted hunting of such animals, then you might see divided opinions here, since people may have varied opinions as to whether hunting is a good practice or not. People can legitimately differ on whether such animals ought to be protected or not. But once they are, they ought to support adherence to the law.
I am somewhat familiar with Kaziranga - it's a major national park in India where wildlife such as rhinos and elephants live. Slaughtering animals there is as evil as slaughtering animals at the San Diego Wildlife park.
In this case, the law being broken is bad enough on its own, but what's more, it results in funding Islam. If your wife is one of those apologists for Islam (mine is, which is why I no longer discuss it with her), ask her why she's against poaching normally, but okay with it when Jihad is the beneficiary.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 6, 2007 7:29 PM
Most of the illegal animal trade is among the Chinese, for use in traditional medicines. Now, while I do not approve of such things, I do not HATE the Chinese for believing in them, indeed, I find the Chinese intelligent, respectful and harworking, if a little prone to be fond of gambling and superstitious.
I am angry about rare animals being killed, but also angry about the millions of innocent babies being murdered by 'liberal' abortionists, and the women being degraded and abused by 'liberal' pornography, as well as the many disfunctional families caused by 'liberal' attitudes to marriage, as well as unnatural practices like homosexuality, etc.
I am fed up with the dominance of thinly disguised PC- simply people wanting to hate some group, and knowing that the only group it is politically correct to hate is Muslims.
Posted by: Barnaby
at May 6, 2007 8:06 PM
"They're not discarding the animal. They are using it to further their jihad."
"One more thing. You say that they might eat it (which it is justifiable) but not necessarily discard it. This is a good point, but in Islam eating elephants, monkeys, or rhinoceros is as forbidden as eating dogs, cats or pigs."
Sublimer,
I was speaking figuratively. I didn't say the poachers would necessarily "eat" the animal. I said that it is "food for the jihad".
We have seen that Islam allows many normally dishonorable codes of conduct (like lying) in order to further the cause of global jihad.
Why wouldn't it also sanction killing of protected animals if their tusks, horns, skins or meat can provide the means to further the jihad?
In this case, "food for the jihad" is MONEY.
Posted by: PMK at May 6, 2007 9:35 PM
"I am fed up with the dominance of thinly disguised PC- simply people wanting to hate some group, and knowing that the only group it is politically correct to hate is Muslims.
Posted by: Barnaby [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 6, 2007 08:06 PM"
Huh? What planet are you living on? The only group that it is "politically correct" to hate is white male western Christians.
at May 6, 2007 9:42 PM
This is just another incident to prove that muslims have no respect for any form of life or for the planet we live on. Their sole intent and purpose is to destroy and kill everything around them, all for their satanic mohammed. Besides killing children, this really makes me sick, as I am an animal lover and activist. The worst crimes of animal cruelty are committed in Indonesia, the largest muslim population in the world.
Posted by: Bonniea at May 6, 2007 11:02 PM
I am very happy to see sublimer's quotes to the effect that Muhammad, at least according to some hadiths, prohibited cruelty against animals.
While I despise islam, I don't despise it enough to want to claim that sublimer is wrong on that account. Rather, if I were convinced that Muslims were sincerely opposed to animal cruelty on principle, it would do a great deal to mitigate my hatred for the ideology. What matters is the welfare of the animals. Noone should lose sight of that fact.
Shiva's posts re the Arab bedouin breeding of Saluki's is fascinating. But I think Shiva misunderstood sublimer's point. As I understand it, sublimer was merely acknowledging the fact that Muslims view dogs as dirty. Certainly, the whole Muslim cab driver refusal to carry seeing eye dogs at the Minneonapolis airport supports that claim. What is more surprising is Shiva's story about Arab Muslim bedoins breeding Saluki's. I would like to know much more about that. How is that reconciled with the more common Muslim hatred of dogs?
Also, re the point of this whole thread, I would not assume that Islam sanctions poaching, although posters above are likely correct in pointing out that for the jihadists, the ends totally justify the means. That is a completely valid point. But no - obviously Islam does not officially sanction poaching. That would be a ridiculous claim, as I seriously doubt that there were herds for poaching in 7th century Arabia.
But what is the case, is that poaching exists because there is a market for its products. You have to wipe out the consumers in order to eliminate the poachers. In order to wipe out the consumers you have to wipe out their ignorance and superstition that products like monkey brains confer virility. Which means that wherever ignorance and superstition reign, there will be a market for quack cures for impotence. Which means that one has to to address the root causes of ignorance and superstition. One such obvious root cause for ignorance and superstition is islam. Muslims are so ignorant and irrational that they can simultaneously deny that UBL was behind 9/11, while at the same time admiring his prowess in pulling it off. Islam does not promote rational thought but rather stands as a significant impediment to rational thought among almost 1/5th of the world's population.
As long as irrationality and ignorance exists in the world (again, not limited to Muslims but certainly not helped by Islam as an ideology either), poachers who peddle monkey brains as a cure for impotence will also exist. As a starting point, one has to eliminate the market for the product, by curing ignorance and superstition, because there will simply be no end to the number of evil people who will be willing to make a profit off of other people's ignorance and superstition.
at May 6, 2007 11:11 PM
"We have seen that Islam allows many normally dishonorable codes of conduct (like lying) in order to further the cause of global jihad."
Islam also has a big head, two hands and two eyes, and it's in the process of walking over to the USA. Can't you understand that Islam does not have one mind. Do you really think that the billion muslims meet in secret rooms to plan the conquest ? You should start writing a new book : The Protocols of the elders of Mecca !
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 11:16 PM
"Do you really think that the billion muslims meet in secret rooms to plan the conquest ? You should start writing a new book : The Protocols of the elders of Mecca !"
We don't need to write a new book. The book is already written.
Posted by: Caroline at May 6, 2007 11:21 PM
That's the scariest thing Caroline. It is that you believe in it. So when are you going to apply the eugenicist policies, when for the gas chambers and when for the concentration camps ?
Posted by: sublimer at May 6, 2007 11:22 PM
I'm not the one contemplating the "eugenicist principles" sublimer. Why do I scare you more than Muslims who subscribe to sura 9:29 as Allah's eternal word to be implemented on earth?
This site, and commenters at this site, are merely pointing out what Muslims have been saying and doing for some 1400 years now.
I suggest you google the Freudian concept of "displacement". It certainly has many meanings, but among them is the notion that one way of relieving anxiety is to transfer one's fear onto a safer object than the original source of the fear. Think about it.
Posted by: Caroline at May 6, 2007 11:44 PM
The rich Arabs who go bustard-hunting in Pakistan, and for other wild game that they are not supposed to hunt, do it not to raise money, but because they can do any damn thing they want.
Look at how the Al-Saud squashed the British government's inquiry into all kinds of scandalous bribery and decadent behavior on the part of assorted Saudi princes that had to do with the big arms deal signed with Great Britain.
Look at the Saudi prince with his 66 suitcases loaded with cocaine whom French authorities have been unable to interview or prosecute -- being Saudi means being above the law. The law of England. The law of France. The law of the United States. The law of any Infidel state.
Posted by: Hugh at May 6, 2007 11:48 PM
The problem Caroline is that you believe all Muslims subscribe to sura 9:29 and live by it every day. I suggest you look up the freudian concepts of "splitting" and "narcissistic personality disorder". If you're into psychoanalysis maybe those terms will help you understand the point I am trying to get through.
Posted by: sublimer at May 7, 2007 12:01 AM
I am very happy to see sublimer's quotes to the effect that Muhammad, at least according to some hadiths, prohibited cruelty against animals.The Muslim treatment of animals should be obvious from the way they slaughter the animals they plan to eat - cows, goats, chickens, etc. Sure, one could state that it's borrowed from the Jewish shibboleth technique, but since when was Judaism the sole source of what's halal? After all, Muslims don't ban the consumption of, say, shellfish, or observe other Jewish rites. Given that they broke away from Judaism and Arab Paganism, they had a clean slate from which to work from. Shiva's posts re the Arab bedouin breeding of Saluki's is fascinating. But I think Shiva misunderstood sublimer's point. As I understand it, sublimer was merely acknowledging the fact that Muslims view dogs as dirty. Certainly, the whole Muslim cab driver refusal to carry seeing eye dogs at the Minneonapolis airport supports that claim. What is more surprising is Shiva's story about Arab Muslim bedoins breeding Saluki's. I would like to know much more about that. How is that reconciled with the more common Muslim hatred of dogs? The fact that all Islamic customs are set in stone as per the Sunnah, and other texts such as Fiqh, make the likelihood of humane slaughter of animals as likely as the elusive question of Islamic reform itself. If anything, the way animals are treated under Islamic traditions - call it cultural or religious - should turn even the most hard core anti-Western Leftists who happen to be animal lovers against them. It's happened some with PETA, but there isn't a solid movement against this.
While I despise islam, I don't despise it enough to want to claim that sublimer is wrong on that account. Rather, if I were convinced that Muslims were sincerely opposed to animal cruelty on principle, it would do a great deal to mitigate my hatred for the ideology. What matters is the welfare of the animals. Noone should lose sight of that fact.
The tradition about dogs being regarded as dirty comes from the following Hadith:
Al Jaami` Al Saheeh. Version 1.07 - By Imam Al BukhariA Muslim humorist might want to claim that Mohammed elevated dogs to the stature of women. Most people would see it differently.
Volume 3
3.54:
Narrated Hafsa:
Allah's Apostle said, "It is not sinful (of a Muhrim) to kill five kinds of animals, namely: the crow, the kite, the mouse, the scorpion and the rabid dog."
Al Jaami` Al Saheeh. Version 1.07 - By Imam Al Bukhari
Volume 1
1.490:
Narrated `Aisha:
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."
Also, re the point of this whole thread, I would not assume that Islam sanctions poaching, although posters above are likely correct in pointing out that for the jihadists, the ends totally justify the means. That is a completely valid point. But no - obviously Islam does not officially sanction poaching. That would be a ridiculous claim, as I seriously doubt that there were herds for poaching in 7th century Arabia.There is nothing in Islam that either sanctions nor forbids poaching. So it would be upto the various schools of jurisprudence to make things up on their own, based on whatever they mine from the Sunnah. It would be interesting to see what the laws are in Islamic countries that do have significant wildlife, such as Bangladesh, Malaysia and Indonesia.
But what is the case, is that poaching exists because there is a market for its products. You have to wipe out the consumers in order to eliminate the poachers. In order to wipe out the consumers you have to wipe out their ignorance and superstition that products like monkey brains confer virility. Which means that wherever ignorance and superstition reign, there will be a market for quack cures for impotence. Which means that one has to to address the root causes of ignorance and superstition. One such obvious root cause for ignorance and superstition is islam. Muslims are so ignorant and irrational that they can simultaneously deny that UBL was behind 9/11, while at the same time admiring his prowess in pulling it off. Islam does not promote rational thought but rather stands as a significant impediment to rational thought among almost 1/5th of the world's population.In the above story, poaching in Assam is not new - it's been there for decades. In the past, poachers did hunt down rhinos for their horns on the belief that those horns had medicinal value, and the markets for them were to be found in Burma and China. What's new here in this story is Bangladesh getting into the act, as well as a separatist campaign in Assam both trying to horn in on the action.
Posted by: Caroline
You are right that the market for this would have to be eliminated. Traditionally, the consumers have been Chinese, so that if that market dries up, that would mean the end of that business. Locally in North East India (or for that matter the rest of India), rhino horns don't have medicinal value. I don't know whether Islamic medicine (unani) does.
One thing I do doubt - that this is a significant revenue for Jihadis. Like Hugh pointed out, not only do Arabs hunt pheasants because they can, but that they are not doing it for cash. Similarly, the Bangladeshi Jihadis should have no problems getting all the cash they need from the Gulf states - given that they too have a large expatriate population there. And with those people throwing cash like confetti to build mosques worldwide from Dearborn to Manila, anybody doubt that they'd be trying to toss money at Dhaka - which would travel a lot further, given that Bangladesh and poverty are two things synonymous with each other (even if the poverty is the direct result of Islam).
Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 7, 2007 12:49 AM
Bonniea,Sweet. Should we take you as an standard example of what an average Muslim is like? I sure do.
Hug a unicorn for me.
Posted by: sublimer
Sure, you have your billion Muslims - which is part of what makes Islam so lethal. If it had a following of a few million, it would probably be as lethal as scientology or any of those myriad custs out there. In fact, the only reason Islam isn't officially classified as a cult is it's being around since the 7th century, thereby showing longevity. Otherwise, there is little that separates Islam from an average cult.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 7, 2007 12:56 AM
Ugh... I mangled the citations - sorry Caroline. Let me try it again.
The Muslim treatment of animals should be obvious from the way they slaughter the animals they plan to eat - cows, goats, chickens, etc. Sure, one could state that it's borrowed from the Jewish shibboleth technique, but since when was Judaism the sole source of what's halal? After all, Muslims don't ban the consumption of, say, shellfish, or observe other Jewish rites. Given that they broke away from Judaism and Arab Paganism, they had a clean slate from which to work from.
Shiva's posts re the Arab bedouin breeding of Saluki's is fascinating. But I think Shiva misunderstood sublimer's point. As I understand it, sublimer was merely acknowledging the fact that Muslims view dogs as dirty. Certainly, the whole Muslim cab driver refusal to carry seeing eye dogs at the Minneonapolis airport supports that claim. What is more surprising is Shiva's story about Arab Muslim bedoins breeding Saluki's. I would like to know much more about that. How is that reconciled with the more common Muslim hatred of dogs?The fact that all Islamic customs are set in stone as per the Sunnah, and other texts such as Fiqh, make the likelihood of humane slaughter of animals as likely as the elusive question of Islamic reform itself. If anything, the way animals are treated under Islamic traditions - call it cultural or religious - should turn even the most hard core anti-Western Leftists who happen to be animal lovers against them. It's happened some with PETA, but there isn't a solid movement against this.
at May 7, 2007 12:59 AM
"The problem Caroline is that you believe all Muslims subscribe to sura 9:29 and live by it every day."
You can scroll back through the posts here for a mere several weeks in order to confirm that sura 9:29 is alive and well and kicking.
As to narcissistic personality disorder - what of it? Do you deny that Mo suffered from it? Certainly you aren't suggesting that I suffer from it? (Good luck proving that). So I'm not sure what your point is there.
Re splitting - fascinating. A Freudian term we haven't seen much of lately. My curiosity is certainly piqued by the introduction into the debate of Freudian "splitting"! How do you see that as applying to my take on Islam? Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted by: Caroline at May 7, 2007 1:16 AM
Posted by: sublimer
You sure do know a lot about dogs.
May-be I do,I would like to add that I have assisted the police training dogs where I live in Indonesia.So I can rightly claim to have first hand knowledge of dogs and muslims.
I never said dogs were dirty. I said I know that a lot of Muslims think dogs to bed dirty.
The implication was there if you are a muslim
At least that's how it is in North Africa.
Dogs normally reflect the inviroment that they live in,And north Africa does not break any records for cleanlyness
Maybe they treat them like royal princes in the Arabian peninsula or by the shit filled rivers by where you live. Is it India ?
My point is the islamic dogphobia is just a load of crap
There are a lot of cultural differences within the Muslim world.
According to the Dawa muslims can adjust to the local customs as long as it does not conflict with sharia law,so most of the cultural differences in the muslim world are not islamic,anything that conflicts with Sharia is destroyed
One exmple is easy to see when you look at the traition clothing of indonesia and the muslim clothing.And the same goes for any other places where islam has infested.Another example is how we can see the enforcement of women having to cover their heads
And if you cannot distinguish between religion and culture, you might be beyond help. Sorry.
As I said before within Islam there is no culture,only Islam.
Sorry, but it is you that fails to see that islam overules culture.Also you fail to see that islam is not so much a religion,but an indoctrination of hate
-------------------------------------------------Posted by:
Caroline I am very happy to see sublimer's quotes to the effect that Muhammad, at least according to some hadiths, prohibited cruelty against animals.
Yet there are more verses that promote hatred towards animals
And to compound matters,shall I remind you about monkeys,pigs and jews
Or about donkeys.
Posted by: shiva
at May 7, 2007 1:51 AM
"Look at the Saudi prince with his 66 suitcases loaded with cocaine whom French authorities have been unable to interview or prosecute -- being Saudi means being above the law. The law of England. The law of France. The law of the United States. The law of any Infidel state.
Posted by: Hugh "
...time to start changing some laws.....
Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 7, 2007 6:27 AM
Can you produce those hadiths shiva ? The implication that there is no difference between religion and culture is so preposterous. Do you even know that people in Indonesia (who happen to be Muslim) and people in Algeria (who also happen to be Muslim) speak different languages ???? Do you know that they probably have different folkloric dances ????? Do you know that the movies they make are probably different ??????? Should I hand you your ass in a plate ?????????
Posted by: sublimer at May 7, 2007 8:38 AM
Hi Caroline,
Since i like you, I try to answer all your posts.
"You can scroll back through the posts here for a mere several weeks in order to confirm that sura 9:29 is alive and well and kicking."
-- that is my point. It is alive and well and kicking among Jihadi circles and in this forum. If your goal is to combat Jihadi ideology, keep it in mind but what I am asking of you is that you do not reduce Islam to that one verse.
"As to narcissistic personality disorder - what of it? Do you deny that Mo suffered from it? Certainly you aren't suggesting that I suffer from it? (Good luck proving that). So I'm not sure what your point is there.
Re splitting - fascinating. A Freudian term we haven't seen much of lately. My curiosity is certainly piqued by the introduction into the debate of Freudian "splitting"! How do you see that as applying to my take on Islam? Inquiring minds want to know!"
Narcissistic people or people who resort to splitting as a defense mechanism often either sublimate or completely devalue the other. This is seen with some men's relationships with women. For a lot of men (mostly in conservative circles), the woman can either be sacred (the Mother) or a whore. These people also tend to view the enemy in very similar ways. He is either sublimated to a point of fascination or completely devalued. But this defense mechanism resorts to irrational means as middle grounds or any facts that would support a shift to a middle ground is either ignored or denegated. I say denegated and not denied because it is the more correct term in psychoanalysis.
Posted by: sublimer at May 7, 2007 8:51 AM
sublimer: "-- that is my point. It is alive and well and kicking among Jihadi circles and in this forum. If your goal is to combat Jihadi ideology, keep it in mind but what I am asking of you is that you do not reduce Islam to that one verse."
sublimer - the reason we focus on that verse is BECAUSE it's the part of islam that concerns us. We really don't care about the zakat and the wudu and the rest of it that doesn't have direct implications for our well-being. Of course our goal is to combat jihadi ideology! The site is called jihadwatch! So I would think that our focus on sura 9:29 is completely appropriate here!
Re the splitting - thanks for that explanation. of course what you are confirming is that Muhammad was indeed a narcissist, which would account for his complete demonization of the Other (the non-believer). If I have an issue with that (which I do, since as a non-believer I AM that other who is being demonized by the ideology), I hardly think it is evidence of "splitting" or narcissism on my part to point it out.
Posted by: Caroline at May 7, 2007 10:12 AM
Caroline,
maybe you should reread the Koran and see what the Koran says about the people of the book. Do you know that Muslims believe Jews and Christians will go to Paradise ? I completely understand your focus on 9:29. I am not saying you should not. I am just saying that you should not reduce a whole religion to one verse. If your problem is with Militant Jihad, good for you. If it is with Islam, then you are falling in the trap of projection theory. It is as if I hated a woman because she had a mole I detested.
Posted by: sublimer at May 7, 2007 10:18 AM
Not only is Islam destroying mankind, it is also destroying the animal kingdom....
......!!!...
Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 7, 2007 11:14 AM
sublimer,
You say: "maybe you should reread the Koran and see what the Koran says about the people of the book. Do you know that Muslims believe Jews and Christians will go to Paradise ?"
Really? In that case the Koran ought to be clear and consistent that Christians and Jews, after Muhammad's revelation, will go to Paradise.
1. Please cite me the verses which say that Christians and Jews who accept their scriptures but reject Islam and Muhammad will go to Paradise.
2. Please cite me the poll and survey results that show that a majority of Muslims believe that Christians and Jews who reject Islam and Muhammad will go to Paradise.
Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at May 7, 2007 1:16 PM
Khaybar,
In Sura 2:62 it states: "Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Posted by: sublimer at May 7, 2007 4:20 PM
In todays real world, Non Muslims in Muslim held lands are being exterminated or forced to leave...they live in fear and they grieve those that are murdered by the Muslims...They continue to believe in their religion and try to live long enough to see tomorrow....The Muslims are trying very hard to see that it does not happen...
Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 7, 2007 4:51 PM
Can you produce those hadiths shiva ? The implication that there is no difference between religion and culture is so preposterous.
Firstly I did not mention anything about hadiths
I wrote
"According to the Dawa muslims can adjust to the local customs as long as it does not conflict with sharia law,"
Muslims attack on the host nation isn't just against its religion and economy, but is aimed at its very cultural identity.
Islam is a complete system, including a culture, which Muslims regard as superior (despite all evidence to the contrary) to other cultures. Muslims are therefore required to destroy the symbols of ('Jahiliya') non-Muslim culture.
In the East this has included destruction of Hindu temples and Christian churches and replacement with mosques, and destruction of Buddhist artwork and universities and replacement with heaps of rubble. This process of cultural replacement is now beginning in the West.
Let me repeat Islam is system that emcompasses religion,politics and cutlture
Islam is a religion. But, to many muslims, Islam is a culture. It is a practice handed down by their fathers, and their father's father before that. It is something they do out of habit rather than out of the education they have received.
The difference between Indonesia and North Africa have more to do with their pre-Islamic culture over-riding Islam
Islam is very specific and explicit. Islam is the ultimate and everything else comes later. How could, therefore, culture stand between the Muslim and his religion?
Even more important, how could the Indonesian/North african get so confused that he could not differentiate between religion and culture and allow himself to practice Islam his way; religion as a culture.
Inonesians were Hindus long before they became Muslims.Even in those parts of Indonesia which have become predominantly Muslim, you can still see the remains of the Hindu religion and many of their dances and so on still retain this culture to a certain extent.
The Sultans of early Java had Sanskrit names, proof of the Hindu influence.They became Muslims not through the influence of the Arabs, but through the influence of the Indian merchants who came to Melaka to trade.
That is why Indonesian brand of Islam is the same as in India and we find some differences when comparing our practices to that of the Middle Eastern Muslims.This is due to to early Indian muslims still retained much of their Hindu heritage
The natives at that time owed their loyalty to the Sultans. When the Sultans converted to Islam the natives followed suit without any questions asked. They became Muslims due to the tradition of loyalty to the Sultans rather than because they were committed to the religion.
Here alone was reason enough for the weak following of the religious principles,and the Hindu influence remained The people were just doing what the Sultan asked. The old cultures and traditions were retained and practiced side-by-side with Islam. The early Indonesia Muslims were one confused lot of people and, to some extent, this confusion still remains.
In fact, you can still see aspects of Hindu culture in our so-called "Islamic" practices. Take the lighting of lanterns on the last seven nights before the end of Ramadan. This is modelled after the Hindu religious celebration of Deepavali, the festival of the lights.
What about the wedding ceremony mentioned earlier? Very much a Hindu practice where the bride and bridegroom sit on a stage so the world can see them see and to receive the blessings of the crowd who sprinkle scented water and flowers on them.
Many acts the Indonesians do in the name of religion is not Islamic at all.
In fact, some are even contrary to religious beliefs; bida'ah or shirik; and compromise the principles of the Islamic faith. These practices are not only sinful but makes a mockery of the One God fundamental because that forbidden practice acknowledges the existence of other forces equally powerful.
For instance, take the practice of consulting Dukuns. Most Indonesians believe in the powers of the bomoh and many actually go to see them for assistance.
Dukuns are nothing but witch doctors. In the Western terminology "witches" are servants of the devil as they draw upon the powers of the forces of evil. The Indonesians swear by the power of the Dukuns rather than do their Hajat prayer to get their wishes fulfilled. Dukuns use the Koran, spirits of dead people, bones of humans, and so on, to "pray" for help.
It must be remembered that though the Dukuns uses the Koran it is not used for reciting the verses but as talismans or "tangkals". The Koran is not taken in its spirit or substance but in its physical form, as an object of magic.
Sometimes the verses are recited but only for "fixing things". The "client" may want the Dukuns to help them get a job promotion, a contract they have tendered for, the love of a woman or man, and other worldly desires. In extreme cases the Dukuns calls upon the "powers" of the Koran to harm an enemy or as a prevention, called "sekatan", from an enemy who is suspected of using another Dukuns to give this client bad luck or make him sick.
Islam, or the powers of Islam, is treated as something magical or mystical, and who better to call upon the magic of the Koran or the verses of the Koran than the black magic man, the Dukun. Of course, every Dukun would claim he is doing things the Islamic way and that there is no shirik in what he is doing. This gives the Indonesians the feeling of security, that he is not offending God in his actions or creating an associate to God.
Many religious people, those well learned in Islam dare not speak out.
They realise that this is a very sensitive area to venture into. In fact, some of these religious people even contribute to the belief by themselves offering mystical services. The Malays believe that these religious people have a closeness to God due their "ulama" status and how better to reach God than through these people.
One reason why the Indonesians are so gullible may be because Islam was an "imported" religion. Indonesians choose to be Muslims only when it suits them and revert to their old cultures and traditions freely.
Consider the concept of water and oil; they do not mix. Oil stays on top and does not contaminate the water below it. What we do not realise is, oil chokes life in the water by blocking the flow of oxygen.
In the same way, the belief in other forces other than Allah "kills" the fundamentals of Islam. Without this fundamental belief, their Islam is just as "dead" as the life in the water below the oil.
Now To finish,we do find one thing common all over the muslim world, which we can credit to Islamic culture, the attempt by the islamics to ban film, music and dance.
at May 7, 2007 4:57 PM
Islamists treat animals as fodder to be killed and used for their ends.
When the first nuclear weapons fall on Islamists. I will loose no sleep. The animals are worth far more than their sorry stinking hides.
Posted by: Defender of The Realm at May 7, 2007 6:57 PM
sublimer,
You quoted Quran 2:62: "Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
That isn't what I asked for. In regards to what is considered acceptable in Islam after Muhammad's revelations, please cite me:
1... the verses which say that Christians and Jews who accept their scriptures but reject Islam and Muhammad will go to Paradise.
2... the poll and survey results that show that a majority of Muslims believe that Christians and Jews who reject Islam and Muhammad will go to Paradise.
Verse 2:62 does not address the issue of those Christians and Jews who do not accept Islam and Muhammad (and to accept the Quran they must at the very least accept the validity of the one alleged to have conveyed the message, i.e., Muhammad).
Here was your claim (to Caroline):
"maybe you should reread the Koran and see what the Koran says about the people of the book. Do you know that Muslims believe Jews and Christians will go to Paradise ?"
You have presented neither scriptural evidence nor evidence from polls and surveys to support your claim that Muslims believe what you claim.
Here is a summary of my understanding of what the Koran says about this issue.
7:177 -those who reject "Our revelations" (includes Quran of course) are evil.
3:85, 3:19. -only Islam is acceptable to Allah.
3:113-116. -those among the People of the Book who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day will go to hell.
28:62-64 and 40:73 -Allah will mock Christians when they burn in Hell, asking them where their partners (e.g., a divine Jesus) are.
30:12-16 "Christians" on the Last Day who do not believe in Islam will go to hell.
Here are some quotes which show that believers must accept not only Allah but Muhammad. This rules out the idea that Christians and Jews could be admitted to Paradise while rejecting the revelations of Muhammad (i.e., Quran).
48:13. And so for him who believeth not in Allah and His messenger - Lo! We have prepared a flame for disbelievers.
6:33. We know well how their talk grieveth thee, though in truth they deny not thee (Muhammad) but evil-doers flout the revelations of Allah.
[Note: Denying Muhammad's revelations is denying Allah's revelations. Also see 4:80, which says that to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah]
9:29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute* readily, being brought low.
*jizya
5:55. "Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue**, and bow down (in prayer)."
**zakat. Note that in Islam, the Jews and Christians do not pay zakat. Only the believers pay zakat.
49:15. "The (true) believers are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere."
Jews and Christians are called disbelievers in multiple places [9:30-32, see 9:32, alkafiroona; 5:11-17 see 5:17 kafara; 5:72-73 kafara, kafaroo; 98:6 “kafaroo” (disbelievers) are “worst of created beings”; 9:29 and fight (q-t-l) those who believe not in Allah, the Last Day, Mohammad, and Islam].
Next, from Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 105:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
During the lifetime of the Prophet some people said, : O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "Yes; do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at midday when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on a full moon night when it is bright and there is no cloud in the sky?" They replied, "No." The Prophet said, "(Similarly) you will have no difficulty in seeing Allah on the Day of Resurrection as you have no difficulty in seeing either of them. On the Day of Resurrection, a call-maker will announce, "Let every nation follow that which they used to worship." Then none of those who used to worship anything other than Allah like idols and other deities but will fall in Hell (Fire), till there will remain none but those who used to worship Allah, both those who were obedient (i.e. good) and those who were disobedient (i.e. bad) and the remaining party of the people of the Scripture. Then the Jews will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son. What do you want now?' They will say, 'O our Lord! We are thirsty, so give us something to drink.' They will be directed and addressed thus, 'Will you drink,' whereupon they will be gathered unto Hell (Fire) which will look like a mirage whose different sides will be destroying each other. Then they will fall into the Fire. Afterwards the Christians will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Jesus, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son,' Then it will be said to them, 'What do you want?' They will say what the former people have said. Then, when there remain (in the gathering) none but those who used to worship Allah (Alone, the real Lord of the Worlds) whether they were obedient or disobedient. Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about Him. It will be said, 'What are you waiting for?' Every nation have followed what they used to worship.' They will reply, 'We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.' Allah will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say twice or thrice, 'We do not worship any besides Allah.' "
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 438:
Narrated Anas: A young Jewish boy used to serve the Prophet and he became sick. So the Prophet went to visit him. He sat near his head and asked him to embrace Islam. The boy looked at his father, who was sitting there; the latter told him to obey Abu-l-Qasim and the boy embraced Islam. The Prophet came out saying: "Praises be to Allah Who saved the boy from the Hell-fire."
Also the Reliance of the Traveller cites a sahih hadith:
"The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: "By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell."" (RT, w4.3).
That all seems very clear. Two other points must be emphasized in regards to 2:62.
First, Muhammad has a different interpretation of what believers in the former prophets (Moses, Abraham, Jesus, etc.) actually believed.
2:135 "And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.
2:136. Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
2:137. And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
2:138. (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.
2:139. Say (unto the People of the Scripture): Dispute ye with us concerning Allah when He is our Lord and your Lord? Ours are our works and yours your works. We look to Him alone.
2:140. Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do."
Thus believers must believe as Muhammad believes. "Believers" must share his interpretation. The Koran states:
3:67. “Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.”
Second, one must focus on what is relevant after Muhammad's revelations. Ibn Kathir concludes, in his tafsir of 2:62 (taking into account other verses such as 3:85):
“When Allah sent Muhammad as the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger to all of the Children of Adam, mankind was required to believe in him, obey him and refrain from what he prohibited them; those who do this are true believers. The Ummah of Muhammad was called `Mu'minin' (believers), because of the depth of their faith and certainty, and because they believe in all of the previous Prophets and matters of the Unseen.”
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6397/2/
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6398/2/
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6399/2/
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6400/2/
Posted by: Khaybar Oasis
at May 7, 2007 7:50 PM
I will merely add to Khaybar's extremely scholarly response, this thought:
Even if it were true that Muslims believe that Christians and Jews would be admitted to paradise, this would be of no comfort, for the reason that Islamic paradise doesn't exist! Since Muhammad was a false prophet, the entire idea of an islamic paradise is an invented idea in the first place. By contrast, however, Muslims are acting in THIS world on sura 9:29. So sura 9:29 has very real consequences for me and other infidels in this life, while the Muslim concept of heaven has no consequences for me in this life or in any other life, for that matter (regardless of your delusions on the matter).
"If your problem is with Militant Jihad, good for you. If it is with Islam, then you are falling in the trap of projection theory."
But there is more to Islam then just militant jihad. There is that little matter of Sharia law as well, even if it comes about democratically. I am not only an infidel but a woman as well. Why wouldn't you expect me to have a problem with Sharia law? Who does Islam benefit exactly other than male Muslims? You are both. I am neither. No wonder we view this whole islam thing rather differently!
"It is as if I hated a woman because she had a mole I detested."
A more apt analogy would be that you decided not to sleep with a woman after discovering that she had syphillis.
Posted by: Caroline at May 7, 2007 8:34 PM
Of course it doesn't exist, Caroline!
https://www.cafepress.com/tothepointnews.128623563
lol
Posted by: jcom972 at May 8, 2007 2:39 AM
"as for the jewish the killers of all messengers (read more)and the ones who crossed the christ u defend them now as they paid u extra its obvious and clear to all people mr idiot so called spencer."
Interesting how a Muslim will say that Jesus was crucified when he can blame a Jew for the crucification. Otherwise, Islam denies that Jesus was crucified.
I think this guy is an apostate and should be turned into Islamic authorities.
at May 8, 2007 5:18 PM
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