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"Spengler," he of the portentous pseudonym (I'm trying to choose between "Gibbon" and "Cassandra" myself) in the same article offers a silly symmetrical dismissal of the careful work of divulgation by Robert Spencer:
“The available literature on Islam consists mainly of a useless exchange of Koranic citations that show, depending on whether one is Karen Armstrong or Robert Spencer, that Islam is loving or hateful, tolerant or bigoted, peaceful or warlike, or whatever one cares to show. It is all so pointless and sophomoric; anyone can quote the Koran, or for that matter the Bible, to show whatever one wants.”
These two sentences are unforgivably silly. “Spengler” purports to place on the same level the apologetic nonsense of Karen Armstrong and Robert Spencer's effort at lucid exposition of complicated texts – or texts that appear to non-Muslims to be complicated -- an effort at mass pedagogy about the doctrines of Islam that, so far, deserves only praise, and not the hideously symmetrical dismissal (along with Armstrong) that Spengler offers.
Of course Spencer is not a right-wing ogre, manufacturing or teasing-out an Islam that does not exist except in his perfervid and presumably sinister brain. Spencer himself is a perfectly sane, humorful, Western man, who happens to have studied at great length, over two decades, the texts of Islam -- Qur'an, Hadith, (those deemed authentic by the most authoritative muhaddithin, Bukhari and Muslim) and the Sira -- and to those texts has added the work of Qur'anic commentators, further supplemented by jurisconsults of the four main Sunni schools of jurisprudence, as well as the most important historians of early Islam such as Al-Tabari, later historiographers such as Ibn Khaldun, and right up to the present, the widely-disseminated handbooks of Islamic doctrine endorsed by Al-Azhar, and such popular manuals as those of Al-Qaradawi.
Muslim apologists, unable to deal with Infidels who apparently know the Islamic texts too well, offer all kinds of apologetic nonsense to distract the Infidels -- whether it be an audience of them in television-land, or an audience of hopeful innocents appearing at a mosque for one of those “Interfaith” gatherings or “dialogues” that are exercises in one-sided propaganda for Islam. There is outright lying about the faith, religiously-sanctioned Taqiyya (or its variant “Kitman”). There is the rhetorical defense of Tu Quoque (we do it, but you do it too, and even worse). There is the claim that Infidels cannot possibly have any opinion about Islam unless they know Arabic (which would imply that the 80% of the world’s Muslims who are not Arabs cannot conceivably have any just opinion of Islam, though this is seldom pointed out by Infidels in reply).
And then there is another favorite: Islam is “not monolithic” and Islam “is whatever Muslims want it to be.” Is Islam really just a case of this or that person showing, by Qur’anic quotation, “whatever one wants”? It is “Spengler” who apparently thinks that Armstrong relies on copious Qur’anic quotation, on those Hadith deemed “authentic,” on details of the Sira that are quoted at length. In fact, Armstrong hardly quotes the Qur’an and the “authentic” Hadith (from Bukhari and Muslim), or from the Sira, at all. She refers, she summarizes. She here and there offers up the same thin gruel: Qur’an 5.32 without 5.33, the “inauthentic” Hadith, not in Bukhari or Muslim, about Muhammad returning from the “lesser Jihad” of war to the “greater Jihad” of domestic life and attempting to live the good, the Muslim, life. She has one or two other favorites – “There is no compulsion in religion” – but it’s the most obvious stuff.
Compare this, say, to the copious quotation, from Qur’an, Hadith, and above all Sira, supplemented by Al-Tabari and others, including those who today rely on those very same quotations to justify, perfectly appropriately, their malevolent and murderous behavior today, that is presented, laid out without very much comment of his own, by Robert Spencer. This is Spencer’s main sin for Muslims, and possibly for an envious (or is it lazy, too lazy to go over the same material?) “Spengler,” who apparently believes (for to be charitable one must assume he has not read) that Spencer is a mere enantiomorph of the deplorable Armstrong, or the more sinister Esposito.
For "Spengler" to dismiss all of this, and to further claim that "Islam" can be made by Armstrong and Spencer to "mean" whatever they want it to mean, is absurd. How do we know it is absurd?
We know it in two ways. We know it from the scholars of Islam, and we know it from the defectors from Islam.
From about 1870 to 1970 was the great age of Western scholarship on Islam. It had behind it many centuries of disinterested study by Western scholars, long before the age of imperialism, of Arabic, Persian, and Turkish, and of Islam itself, however imperfect, given the resources and contact available. This is what Edward Said so tendentiously dismissed as a product of, and handmaid to, Western imperialism. For an unanswerable, and feline reply to Said, see Bernard Lewis’s “The Question of ‘Orientalism.’” And see, as well, the article on Said by Keith Windschuttle, the recent book-length rebuttal of Said’s knowledge of Western studies of Islam and the East, that is, of “Orientalism,” by Robert Irwin, and the forthcoming full-scale assault, in “The Defense of the West” by Ibn Warraq, on Said for his baseless, ignorant, and semi-demented attack on the West. Said attributed to that West that need for a hostile “Other” that, in fact, is central to Islam, which divides the world uncompromisingly between Believers and Infidels. In other words, what Said accuses the West of is precisely that which the West, as Ibn Warraq so convincingly shows, has never been guilty of. Rather, it has been uniquely open, among the world’s civilizations, to other peoples and beliefs and mores and customs. Said’s accusations are the very things of which not the West, but Islam and its adherents are guilty.
And along with Said’s baneful and inexplicable influence has come the phenomenon of his providing justification for a jobs program for Muslims and other representatives of “others.” These are, presumably, immune to the putative biases of all those Western scholars, those systematically maligned “Orientalists” who need to be kept down and out, while the likes of Joseph Massad and Hamid Dabashi take over the tenured positions, and hire those just like them. The membership of the Middle Eastern Studies Association, thirty years ago 7% Muslim, is now 70% Muslim. And while the seemingly “left-wing” ideology of Said has contributed to this, so have the “contributions” – in a dollars-and-cents sense – of Saudi and other Arabs, buying up or founding whole “academic centers,” and establishing chairs (the King Abdul Aziz this, the Guardians of the Two Holy Shrines that, not to mention the “Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding” and the “Center for Contemporary Arab Studies” – both Arab-funded and carefully placed right at Georgetown, the better to be near those government officials who need to be so disinterestedly influenced and instructed).
But before there was Edward Said, before there was such a disgrace as the MEALAC faculty at Columbia, before there was that output of books on everything under the sun in the MIddle East except any mention of Islam (the “Construction of Palestinian Identity” was, and remains, a favorite subject, in tutte le salse), there was a Golden Age of Orientalism. It lasted for about a century, roughly from 1860 or 1870 to 1960, or 1970. There was Ignaz Goldziher. There was Sir William Muir. There was Theodor Noldeke. There was, later on, C. Snouck Hurgronje, and Arthur Jeffery, and St. Clair Tisdall, and Henri Lammens,and Edmond Fagnan, and Samuel Zwemer. There was the incomparable Joseph Schacht. There has been Franz Rosenthal, Gustav von Grunebaum, S. D. Goitein, and even (at his best, as in “The Political Language of Islam”) Bernard Lewis. For all of his failings, Lewis is much to be preferred to those who hate and fear him: the assorted hirelings, directly or indirectly, of the Arabs and Muslims, such as the smiling, jogging Esposito, and others. These consist of both Muslims (the class of Muslim apologists in academic life includes virtually every Muslim, for the mode is always defensive) and those non-Muslims who have found something that answers their emotional needs in the Belief-System of Islam. Or possibly they have convinced themselves of its wonderfulness, and are happy to present a bowdlerized version of the matter to their young and innocent charges – as with Michael Sells’s comical version of the Qur’an, “The Lyrical Suras,” which another professor, Carl Ernst, promoted and helped to inflict on naïve and trusting University of North Carolina students as required reading for entering freshmen, so that they could “learn about Islam.”
The reason for this seeming digression into the history of Orientalism, and attacks on it, is to remind readers that all of those great scholars of Islam came to conclusions about the subject that were far closer to those of Robert Spencer, and had nothing to do with those of Karen Armstrong. Indeed, in many cases they said, in ways not aimed at a wide popular audience, as Spencer does, the very same things he says. Or rather, Spencer allows Muslims themselves to set these things out -- for whenever he can he simply lets them do the explaining. No Western writer on Islam has been more intelligently self-effacing, allowing the texts and the Muslim commentators to speak for themselves. These scholars would not have found what Spencer does, for the audience he seeks, in the dangerous time and imperiled place, in which we, Infidels all, find ourselves. Snouck Hurgronje’s studies, or those of Joseph Schacht, were meant for the learned, fellow members of a small society of students of Islam. Spencer has quite a different audience in mind, and that helps to explain why he cannot permit himself curlicues of style, but favors instead a plain dunstable prose for exposition -- which, it turns out (and I have reason to know) is the most appropriate for the task of divulgation at hand. Furthermore, the amount of space that a Snouck Hurgronje could take is today, when one is trying merely to get people to read books, and in which nuances of every kind can be elaborated upon, an inconceivable luxury. Spencer is not quite Joe Friday’s “Just the facts, ma’am,” for he understands that the texts must be supplemented by what commentators wrote about those texts, but he aims for a certain directness and simplicity. But no one should be fooled, as “Spengler” has apparently allowed himself to be fooled, into thinking that Arthur Jeffery, or Henri Lammens, or St. Clair Tisdall, or Samuel Zwemer, would find fault in the slightest with the presentation of Islam to be found in Spencer’s books.
And there is one other endorsement, a collective one, of Spencer’s work of which “Spengler” is apparently unaware. That is the endorsement of all those who, having been born into Islam, and having been raised up in Islam, in families and societies and usually, countries suffused with Islam, have mentally struggled to find their way out, and have managed to do so, and are now apostates. What do you think Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish and Azam Kamguian and Ali Sina and thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of others who have become defectors from the army of Islam, the Camp of Islam, think of Robert Spencer’s work? Do you think they, any of them, would think he has presented a false view, has simply plucked from the air a quotation here, and another there, and stitched them together to make, as “Spengler” charges, merely his own contribution to some silly back-and-forth rhetorical posturing by assorted know-nothings, each engaged in the same kind of “useless exchange of Koranic citations” which, according to “Spengler,” is all that the work of Spencer amounts to?
Someone here has been “sophomoric.” And someone, the same someone, has been essentially “pointless” – especially in his apparent use of a few quotes from Adonis. In a March 11, 2006 interview, Adonis locates the Arab paralysis, the Arab hopelessness, the Arab lack of cultural achievement, the Arab penchant for despotism, in something to do with the fact of being an “Arab” and, vaguely, the “wrong” use of religion, but never about Islam. Yet within the year, in a different interview, on November 26, 2006, Adonis is now willing to begin to discuss Islam. And what he said in that second interview is far more telling than the earlier one that “Spengler” relies on to provide so much insight – hold the Islam – into the moribund state of Arab culture, Arab intellectual life, Arab anything at all.
Here is that interview:
Following are excerpts from an interview with Syrian poet Adonis (Ali Ahmad Said Asbar), which aired on ANB TV on November 26, 2006.Adonis: The difference between Europe and the Islamic world is in quality, not in degree. What I mean is that the Christian view of the world is not political, but humanistic. It is human beings who are the basis for politics. A Christian person has great liberty to separate his religious faith from his political activity. The mistake committed by the Church in the Middle Ages was rectified - obviously after a struggle and violent revolutions - and political rule was entirely separated from politics...
Interviewer: From religion...
Adonis: From religion, sorry. In our case, political rule was based... Ever since the struggle over who would inherit Prophet Muhammad's place, political rule was essentially based on religion.
Interviewer: But there were great revolutions in the Arab and Islamic world. Take, for example, the ideology of Arab nationalism. This ideology may be connected with Islamic culture, but it is still a man-made ideology.
Adonis: But the ideology of nationalism, in all its forms, is a religious ideology, in the sense that it has never raised any cardinal question concerning religion.
[...]
The Arabs have managed to turn democracy or the revolution into a dynastic or monarchic regime, which is handed down. Most Arab regimes are monarchic regimes, one way or another.
Interviewer: Including the republics...
Adonis: Especially the republics. In my opinion, while it is true that colonialism has played a role, and the wars with Israel have played a role, the greatest responsibility is, nevertheless, on us Arabs.
[...]
The Arab individual does not elect from among people of different opinions who represent different currents. The Arab is accustomed to voting according to pre-determined concepts. Whoever represents this pre-determined concept... The nationalist will vote for a nationalist, and the communist will vote for a communist. These are all types of religious sects. The tribal and sectarian structure has not disintegrated, and has not melted down into the new structure of democracy and the democratic option.
[...]
There can be no living culture in the world if you cannot criticize its foundations – the religion. We lack the courage to ask any question about any religious issue. For example, as a Muslim, I cannot say a single word about the Prophet Moses. The Prophet Moses did not say anything to me as a Muslim, whereas the Israeli Jew can criticize Moses and all the prophets in the Torah, and he can even question the divinity of the Torah.
[...]
We, in Arab society, do not understand the meaning of freedom. We say that freedom means writing an article. Freedom is much deeper than that.
Interviewer: Even writing an article is not possible.
Adonis: True. Arab society is based on many types of invisible slavery, and the ideology and political rule conceal them with worthless slogans and political discourse. The underlying structure of Arab societies is a structure of slavery, not of liberty.
March 11, 2006 Interview
to view this clip: MEMRI TV Clip 1076Adonis: “Words are treated as a crime today. Throughout history, there has never been anything similar to what’s happening today in our Arab society–when you say a word, it is like committing a crime.”
Interviewer: “True.”
Adonis: “Words and opinions are treated as a crime. This is inconceivable.”
Interviewer: “You can be arrested for writing an article.”
Adonis: “That’s one example.”
[. . .]
“In the Koran itself, it says that Allah listened to his first enemy, Satan, and Satan refused to obey him. I believe that Allah was capable of wiping out Satan, yet He listened to Satan’s refusal to obey Him.
“At the very least, we demand that Muslims today listen to people with different opinions.”
[. . .]
Interviewer: “How do you view the plan for democracy, the ‘Greater Middle East’ plan?”
Adonis: “First of all, I oppose any external intervention in Arab affairs. If the Arabs are so inept that they cannot be democratic by themselves, they can never be democratic through the intervention of others.
“If we want to be democratic, we must be so by ourselves. But the preconditions for democracy do not exist in Arab society, and cannot exist unless religion is reexamined in a new and accurate way, and unless religion becomes a personal and spiritual experience, which must be respected.
“On the other hand, all issues pertaining to civil and human affairs must be left up to the law and to the people themselves.”
Interviewer: “Mr. Adonis, how do you view the democracy in Palestine, which brought Hamas to power?”
Adonis: “I support it, but I oppose the establishment of any state on the basis of religion, even if it’s done by Hamas.”
Interviewer: “Even if it liberates Palestine?”
Adonis: “Yes, because in such a case, it would be my duty to fight this religious state.”
[. . .]
Interviewer: “What are the reasons for growing glorification of dictatorships–sometimes in the name of pan-Arabism, and other times in the name of rejecting foreigners? The glorification comes even from the elites, as can be seen, for example, in the Saddam Hussein trial, and in all the people who support him.”
Adonis: “This phenomenon is very dangerous, and I believe it has to do with the concept of ‘oneness,’ which is reflected–in practical or political terms–in the concept of the hero, the savior, or the leader. This concept offers an inner sense of security to people who are afraid of freedom. Some human beings are afraid of freedom.”
Interviewer: “Because it is synonymous with anarchy?”
Adonis: “No, because being free is a great burden. It is by no means easy.”
Interviewer: “You’ve got to have a boss . . .”
Adonis: “When you are free, you have to face reality, the world in its entirety. You have to deal with the world’s problems, with everything . . .”
Interviewer: “With all the issues . . .”
Adonis: “On the other hand, if we are slaves, we can be content and not have to deal with anything. Just as Allah solves all our problems, the dictator will solve all our problems.”
[. . .]
“I don’t understand what is happening in Arab society today. I don’t know how to interpret this situation, except by making the following hypothesis: When I look at the Arab world, with all its resources, the capacities of Arab individuals, especially abroad–you will find among them great philosophers, scientists, engineers, and doctors. In other words, the Arab individual is no less smart, no less a genius, than anyone else in the world. He can excel–but only outside his society. I have nothing against the individuals–only against the institutions and the regimes.
“If I look at the Arabs, with all their resources and great capacities, and I compare what they have achieved over the past century with what others have achieved in that period, I would have to say that we Arabs are in a phase of extinction, in the sense that we have no creative presence in the world.”
Interviewer: “Are we on the brink of extinction, or are we already extinct?”
Adonis: “We have become extinct. We have the quantity. We have the masses of people, but a people becomes extinct when it no longer has a creative capacity, and the capacity to change its world.”
[. . .]
“The great Sumerians became extinct, the great Greeks became extinct, and the Pharaohs became extinct. The clearest sign of this extinction is when we intellectuals continue to think in the context of this extinction.”
Interviewer: “That is very dangerous.”
Adonis: “That is our real intellectual crisis. We are facing a new world with ideas that no longer exist, and in a context that is obsolete. We must sever ourselves completely from that context, on all levels, and think of a new Arab identity, a new culture, and a new Arab society.”
[. . .]
“Imagine that Arab societies had no Western influence. What would be left? The Muslims must . . .”
Interviewer: “What would be left?”
Adonis: “Nothing. Nothing would be left except for the mosque, the church, and commerce, of course.”
[. . .]
“The Muslims today–forgive me for saying this–with their accepted interpretation [of the religious text], are the first to destroy Islam, whereas those who criticize the Muslims–the non-believers, the infidels, as they call them–are the ones who perceive in Islam the vitality that could adapt it to life. These infidels serve Islam better than the believers.”
So Adonis apparently does not agree with “Spengler” that Islam is “whatever anyone wishes to make it.” He does not agree that Spencer is playing merely some cheap game of selective quotation, and that all can play this same game with the same “sophomoric” and “meaningless” results. Adonis is saying something else: that Muslims today [and we can add: Muslims yesterday] have “an accepted interpretation [of the religious text]” and that they are the ones damaging Islam by refusing to, or perhaps -- this Adonis does not dare to concede -- being unable to consider a different interpretation of Islam from the one that is, and has always, been generally accepted. For whatever the differences between Sunni and Shi’a, and whatever the differences between the four schools of Sunni jurisprudence, and whatever other minor differences there may be in outward and visible forms of worship, all Muslims share the same basic attitude toward the world.
This is one of submission to Islam and to Allah. It is one of unquestioning acceptance of the desirability, the need, to accept the expressed will of Allah. No further appeal to reason or consistency is necessary. All share the same notion that the only division that counts in the world is that between Believer and Infidel, and between the two there can only be a permanent and uncompromsing state of war, sometimes leading to open warfare, and more often – especially when Muslims sense that they are too weak – to the use of instruments of Jihad to spread Islam, such as the money weapon, campaigns of Da’wa, and demographic conquest. The latter tactics have proven in recent decades far more effective in spreading Islam than has the instrument of terrorism.
Not only does Adonis not suggest -- far from it -- that Islam is or can be “whatever anyone says it is.” Rather, it is clear that, despite his fears of directly discussing Islam itself as the reason for the political, economic, social, moral, and intellectual failures of Islam, he has come as close as any well-known Muslim, not an apostate, has managed to do. And he further suggests that the only way there will be a way out will be not through Muslim apologetics and continued blindness, but through the intelligent scrutinty and discussion offered by non-Muslims unafraid to study the religion and subject it to critical scrutiny: “those who criticize the Muslims -- the non-believers, the infidels, as they call them -- are the ones who perceive in Islam the vitality that could adapt it to life. These infidels serve Islam better than the believers.”
I think this is correct, though I would phrase it differently. It is not that the Infidel critics necessarily “perceive in Islam” a “vitality” that “could adapt it to life,” but that they keep appealing, openly, to Muslims to take the first step by ceasing to refuse to recognize the nature of Islam, the “accepted interpretation of Islam” (as Adonis puts it), and to criticize it. And, adds Adonis, it is these keen Infidel critics who, in their attempt both to alert Infidels as to what Islam is all about, and in turn to make it harder, through their own efforts and those of other Infidels whom they help to educate about Islam, for Muslims themselves to continue to avoid locating the source of their failures in Islam itself.
Perhaps in reading this description “Spengler” would have difficulty recognizing a description of Spencer and other Infidel students who do not hesitate to lay out its doctrines -- but then, perhaps, it is only some parts of Adonis, and not others, that “Spengler” wishes to hold up for our inspection and instruction.
Let me state that one more time, more directly, so that even a “Spengler” relying on a few quotes from Adonis can understand: the political, economic, social, moral, and intellectual failures of Arab and other Muslim societies is directly related to Islam. That has to be understood by the Western world, the world of intelligent Infidels. And if the Infidels understand that, they will be in a better position to force Muslims to realize that they are no longer able to avoid or evade the matter, and to help them slowly arrive at the same conclusion themselves.
And in the campaign of mass divulgation that is being pursued by a handful of people in the West, no one has, so far, done more to make Infidels aware of what Islam teaches -- and not by selective quotation but by the presentation of passages, and commentaries, that both the great scholars of Islam of the past, and the celebrated apostates from Islam of the present, would recognize and fully agree with -- than Robert Spencer.
Someone in this whole brouhaha has indeed been “sophomoric” in his easy and ill-informed dismissal. And though his name is, orthographically, confusingly close, that someone is not Robert Spencer.
Posted by Hugh at May 8, 2007 10:36 PM
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Hugh-
Thanks for quoting more of "Adonis" than "Spengler" dared.
This Arab artist is saying that The Koran itself destroyed the future of all free thought in the Muslim world.
And, worse, for him, of any real poetry.
Since versifying demand creative skepticism and endless questioning.
Everything has to fit within the eternal headlock of Islamic Thought.
A masterful calling of "Spengler"'s bluster and bluff.
Posted by: profitsbeard
at May 8, 2007 11:05 PM
Even as a long-time fan of Spengler, I agree that he dropped the ball in making that ill-advised comparison. If he had just stuck to his main point, which I think is that one of the reasons the Muslims hang on to the Koran so tightly is that their lives on earth are so wretched. It is a vicious circle. The tighter they hold on to the absurd notion that the Koran is literally the word of god, the worse their lives get (History, not really caring what Muslims think, just moves on, especially in the form of scientific discovery). The worse their lives get, the more they hang on to the Koran. Spengler is right in that this is tragic, because it doesn't have to be this way, just as all tragedies have an element of dumb bad luck in them.
It was Muslims dumb bad luck that Mohammed never had a man of more highly developed spirituality and insight to bounce ideas off of before "going to print" with his "revelation". If Mohammed had hung around with Socrates, Socrates would have made Mohammed see the irrationality and injustice of his ideas right off the bat.
Posted by: venividivici
at May 8, 2007 11:52 PM
Its okay to kill kids in battle, sez Hilali's lieutenant ...
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/05/09/its-ok-to-kill-kids-in-battle-catmeat-sidekick-sez/
this asshole is described as 'deputy spritual leader'- it would be good if Hugh could give us a take on the sprituality in Islam and how one of these murderous bastards becomes 'spiritual'...
Posted by: sheik yer'mami
at May 9, 2007 1:32 AM
Spengler isn't worth the time and space for your commentary, Hugh. Note the first line of the paragraph you quoted -- it belies an almost total ignorance of the nature of "the available literature on islam". The fellow speaks of that about which he knows next to nothing.
Posted by: Archimedes2
at May 9, 2007 2:11 AM
I can only say that beside jihadist advance all over the world, the thing which sadnessing me most is division in a camp of antijihadists.
Posted by: plava_legija
at May 9, 2007 3:43 AM
This is typical "chatterati" nonsense from Spengler - where facts only come from "debate" and your "debate" is only as good as the last book you've read ..
Meanwhile "real world facts" (tm) are consistently ignored in these academic "debates" (i.e. applied sophistry with reliance only on the written word from "trusted authorities")
G-d forbid academics debate "real world facts" (tm) that might intrude on a scholarly debate because we will all recognise "academia" for the "emperor's new clothes" that it really is ..
at May 9, 2007 5:39 AM
G-d forbid academics debate "real world facts" (tm) that might intrude on a scholarly debate because we will all recognise "academia" for the "emperor's new clothes" that it really is
Actually, along with Mark Steyn, Spengler's been the most consistent user of demographic information, aka "real world facts", to explain the current and coming clash between the West and Islam.
Posted by: venividivici
at May 9, 2007 7:19 AM
What I don't understand is why Spengler would throw an Armstrong-Spencer analogy in there anyhow? It didn't belong in the piece.
He's acting like some tired parent who watches one child lie about the other for six hours, and then send them BOTH to their room as if BOTH did something wrong.
Robert doesn't misquote the Qur'an. Armstrong selectively quotes *parts* of verses to make things appear as they are not, and routinely gets caught at it.
I'm sorry if Spengler is tired of the problem. We're all tired of the problem, too. But trivializing a necessary debate doesn't make the problem less dangerous.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair
at May 9, 2007 7:40 AM
I have a request. Could one of lovely song re-writers put this into John Lennon's Song Imagine?
I think it is one of the most interesting things I have read in a long time.
Aunt Bea
Posted by: auntbea
at May 9, 2007 7:43 AM
Whoops! Left out the song lines.
“Imagine that Arab societies had no Western influence. What would be left? The Muslims must . . .”
Interviewer: “What would be left?”
Adonis: “Nothing. Nothing would be left except for the mosque, the church, and commerce, of course.”
Posted by: auntbea
at May 9, 2007 7:44 AM
Re: Fitzgerald: Spengler, Spencer, Armstrong, Adonis
The difference between Robert and the apologists (Armstrong, Ernst, etc.) is the difference between an outdoor cat and indoor cats. The Indoor cats play with fake-toy mice, Robert pounces on real mice. Most of the apologists are academic pets, detached from nature and reality. They are not the fittest when it comes to battle.
They dare not debate Robert. But they do pretend to be indignant. I have a hunch Spengler is an outdoor cat who should know better the difference between fake mice and real mice.
at May 9, 2007 7:59 AM
"Actually, along with Mark Steyn, Spengler's been the most consistent user of demographic information, aka 'real world facts.' to explain the current and coming clash between the West and Islam."
-- from a posting above
"along with Mark Steyn....most consistent user of demographic information"
The first appearance at this website, of many hundreds, of what has been called here "demographic conquest" as an instrument of Jihad (google "demographic conquest" and "instruments of Jihad" and "Posted by Hugh") and detailed discussion of what that phrase means, with figures given both for the rise in the Muslim population in the countries of Western Europe, as France, and the Netherlands, and for the decline in the non-Muslim populations of such Muslim-ruled lands as Pakistan and Bangladesh, first began appearing when Steyn was still mocking those who were insufficiently enthusiastic about the war in Iraq (Steyn for quite a while was an enthusiast of that war, thought it made sense, mocked those who denounced it, found no fault with it, and even visited Iraq himself to see the swell progress being made -- when, had he stayed at home and read Elie Kedourie and Ireland and several others, not to mention "The Legacy of Jihad" and "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance" and "Onward, Muslim Soldiers" Zwemer and Lammens and also visited a few websites regularly, he would much earlier have understood that the only war in Iraq that made even minimial sense was that which was completed by February 2004).
When Steyn finally recognized that "demographic conquest" (the phrase used here) by Muslims in Western Europe was a great menace, he nonetheless continued, with ever-waning enthusiasm, to defend the American war effort in Iraq instead of deploring it (possibly because he found it so much fun to mock the cindy-sheehans of this world, who are indeed so mockable). And he adopted a tone of jaunty hopelessness. Europe was finished, over, kaput, in this Steynian view, and all he could do is point it out. Besides, what had those French and other Europeans done for us lately, if ever? He wrote of such demographic conquest as inexorable, inevitable, and with his repeated refrain of "Europe is gone" offered only hopelessness, without being unable to suggest (lack of imagination? fear of offending those who run his columns if he really said what needed to be said?) he suggested that there was just nothing, really, that could be done, except take note of it.
This belated (as compared to what had been going on, and continues to, at this site) recognition of the demographic conquest of Western Europe as one of three main instruments of Jihad (the other two are well-financed and carefully-targetted campaigns of Da'wa, and the money weapon that comes from the trillions OPEC members have received)), is not enough. Sardonic hopelessness, whatever local and temporary fun is to be had from it, is not the solution. Steyn's shtick, inh this case, does not meet the case, is not equal to the task. Perhaps, by now, that realization is dawning on him. A certain remorseless is necessary, and there are many ways to smuggle in humor, without that "jaunty hopelessness" I referred to above, and which I think is good enough a phrase to repeat.
As for "Spengler," I haven't read him except when his articles have been put up by Robert here, so won't comment on his listing of the chief weapons of Jihad, or what to do about it.
It will be interesting to see if either Steyn or "Spengler" will begin to discuss what constitutes legitimate civilizational self-defense. One still waits for others to pick up on the repeated discussion, at this site, of the Benes Decree. Eventually such discussion will take place, and it can be done so in a way that prevents the usual expected outrage and furious dismissal from having quite the effect Defenders of the Faith (Islam) assume. And just as certainly, eventually (quite soon, in fact) those who remained loyalists over the Iraq war -- even the most loyal of loyalists -- will be forced to recognize the folly and waste of the Bush Administration's effort in Tarbaby Iraq, as a way to constrain or weaken the Camp of Islam. And they will have either have to forthrightly declare they were wrong (dubito) or somehow pretend that "all along" they really had their doubts. But they are in no position to point out -- why, once Saddam Hussein was removed, the pre-existing sectarian and ethnic fissures inevitably would re-appear, in an ever-widening form, for if those fissures were pre-existing, and if their widening (betwee Sunni and Shi'a, Kurd and Arab) was "inevitable" (and both were noted here) then they have some explaiining to do as to how they missed it, how they got Iraq so wrong, and why they could not see the need to exploit those fissures to weaken the Camp of Islam. Lots of faces of lots of pontificators, lots of egg on those faces.
Posted by: Hugh
at May 9, 2007 8:06 AM
venividivici: can you amplify that a little please - not that I don't consider "demographics" facts - but I need to know the methods of sampling and models to evaluate whether they are "facts" or "factoids"
Posted by: drk
at May 9, 2007 8:09 AM
Thank you for these interesting and informative articles.
As for Mark Steyn, I couldn't get through the first chapter of his book because it depressed the he** out of me.
Posted by: Josephine
at May 9, 2007 8:13 AM
These two articles are good examples of what Spengler has done with demographic data.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HK21Ak01.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GI13Ak01.html
Posted by: venividivici
at May 9, 2007 8:30 AM
Hugh,
Lots of salient points about Steyn. A lot of them go back to a problem of journalism in general, which is that most journalists do not take the time to learn and reflect on their subjects, which should really be part of their professional code of ethics. Still, relative to the evolution the entire Western intelligentsia is going to have to eventually undergo vis-a-vis Islam, Steyn made very rapid progress, at least on the demographic issue. While the "shock of recognition" would be a great way to transmit genius in theory (you, of all people, would probably know the origin of that phrase), it doesn't seem to work out in the real world.
Anyway, I was making a much smaller point, which is that Spengler is not normally this bad. He has done a few good articles following up on the Pope's speech quoting Paleologos, for example.
Just because he messed up an article doesn't make me want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Posted by: venividivici
at May 9, 2007 8:45 AM
Hugh- from Deux Rivisme
Chirac over many years has been the recipient of many favors from various Arab tycoons and tyrants, including the late Rafik Hariri, who brought him nice presents and remembered him in other ways, and the soon-to-be-late Saddam Hussein.
I enjoy your articles but time to update this one a bit.
I noticed it in your comment to the Sarkozy against polygamy comments.
Yes, I do read them. And re-read them.
Fan-of-Hugh
Posted by: Borg
at May 9, 2007 8:58 AM
Anyone knows when "demographic" conquest in relation to Islam/Muslims in the West, was first used, post 9/11?
Posted by: DP111
at May 9, 2007 9:21 AM
DP111:
Houari Boumédienne, Algeria’s undisputed ruler until his death in 1978, said it clearly in a 1974 UN speech:
“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends.
Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”
So there you have it. They never beat around the bush. Right after the first 'oilshock' when western Europe agreed to take in large numbers of Muhammedans from North Africa. A tragedy for which we, our children and perhaps our grandchilren will pay.
Here is the link:
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/02/16/update-we-will-conquer-your-country-with-the-bellies-of-our-women/
at May 9, 2007 9:31 AM
Borg --
When I re-post something from the Archives I don't "update" them. They stand as written, and the reader is expected to note the date and why, therefore, there may be things that are now out-of-date. I don't want to change anything except possibly here and there to correct a typo or fix the grammar. And you know why: I want a record of what I have written, and when, without any of that careful rewriting of their own history, especially about their predictions and pronouncements on the Iraq venture, writings that so many are now busily rewriting for posterity (including their on-line archives, which I am monitoring from time to time), and trying to describe their views as something other than what they were, or simply passing over in silence so much of what they have written over the past 40-5 years, and hoping that no one notices, or has the bad manners to point out when they have been wrong. It is disturbing how few can openly admit to their previous misunderstanding and folly, for fear that that would queer their hold on audiences, and on the fat fees those lecture tours and journalististic pontifications bring in. And still worse: they are changing their tone, by degrees, but slowly, as if to render the change imperceptible, and in doing this to protect themselves, they continue to offer support, much muted at this point, to the continuing hallucinatory folly of Tarbaby Iraq.
Posted by: Hugh
at May 9, 2007 11:15 AM
Don't pick Cassandra as your pseudonym. William Connor used that pseudonym during World War II when he was slandering P.G. Wodehouse as a pro-German traitor.
Posted by: Seamus
at May 9, 2007 12:20 PM
I'm not convinced by the defenses offered for Wodehouse's supposed terminal naivete. I think he had much to answer for, though not for being, like Pound, an obvious traitor (Torrey, a psychiatrist, took care of Pound and his St. Elizabeth fakery) but for not returning home, but remaining in Vichy France and broadcasting just a bit too cheerfully from that region, in a manner that the Allies, rightly, found disturbing.
Posted by: Hugh
at May 9, 2007 1:15 PM
Hugh - thank you for that essay. I agree entirely with your assessment of Spencer's stature as a scholar and a writer.
I am, myself, a scholar by training. I have under my belt a PhD in medieval literature from a leading Australian University: my thesis was called 'The Politics of Philosophy' and involved a detailed examination and comparison of the translations into English of Boethius's De Consolatione Philosophiae (the Consolations of Philosophy) - beginning with Alfred the Great's interesting Anglo-Saxon paraphrase and proceeding through versions such as Chaucer's, to that of Elizabeth the First. I read French, German, Italian and Latin passably well; I did Classical Greek so the original New Testament is not a closed book to me.
I won't go into details - but I've read most of the classics of pre-modern Western literature and I've read work by outstanding scholars. I've also read things like a translation of Maimonides "Guide for the Perplexed" - and a translation of Al-Farabi. I read other, lesser lights - G K Chesterton, and C S Lewis. I read Leo Strauss (I don't agree with him on various points - but reading his detailed if idiosyncratic analyses of many intimidating texts was a good antidote to being swept away by mere fashion).
Steep yourself in this kind of stuff for years and you learn to recognise good writing, clear thinking and accurate well-referenced scholarship when you see it. The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), for instance, wears its scholarship lightly - but any reader who follows up Spencer's references will find themselves on solid ground. Speaking as someone with rigorous academic training, I cannot stress this enough.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy
at May 9, 2007 6:13 PM
Excellent dissection of the disingenuous, cherry-picker of ideas...Spengler.
Posted by: awake
at May 10, 2007 2:05 PM
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