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Rafiq Abdus Sabir believes that it is his religious responsibility to wage armed jihad. In response, no shortage of Muslim spokesmen can be found who will say, no, he has gotten it all wrong, jihad is an interior spiritual struggle. That's great, but it's time that mainstream media types started asking a couple of follow-up questions: if Islam really teaches peace, how did Rafiq Abdus Sabir and so many others get it all so terribly wrong? And what are you peaceful types doing to make sure there are no more Rafiq Abdus Sabirs?
"Terror suspect admits support for armed jihad," from AP, with thanks to all who sent this in:
NEW YORK - When he began testifying at his own trial this week, a Florida doctor accused of pledging to support al-Qaida hoped to convince a jury that the FBI had it all wrong: He was a man of peace.If that was the plan, then Rafiq Abdus Sabir had a disastrous day on the witness stand Friday.
Under cross examination, the Columbia University-trained physician was forced to acknowledge a history of family violence, a fascination with weapons and a belief that good Muslims should engage in armed jihad, or holy war.
U.S. Attorney Victor Hou asked Sabir about an audio tape, found at his house, in which a religious lecturer said God would “destroy the disbelievers.”
“That’s God’s word. I have to believe in it,” Sabir said.
They also discussed passages from religious books. One said Jews should be expelled from the Arabian peninsula. Another said Muslims are obligated to obey an imam who declares war against nonbelievers. Hou asked Sabir whether he agreed with both passages, and he said yes — but added that Muslims are only required to follow such instructions from a legitimate religious authority.
Hou pressed him further: “You believe that you must participate in armed jihad, if you get a chance to?”
“Yes,” Sabir answered, but said only in a legitimate conflict.
Allegedly wanted to treat al-Qaida fighters
Sabir was arrested in 2005 after an FBI agent posing as an al-Qaida recruiter recorded him taking an oath of allegiance to Osama bin Laden. Prosecutors said the doctor also agreed to treat al-Qaida fighters wounded in Saudi Arabia, where Sabir then worked at a hospital.
Sabir has said he thought the oath, given in Arabic, was a routine declaration of religious faith, and missed the references to al-Qaida and Islamic fighters because he didn’t really know the language.
Mmm hmmm.
Posted by Robert at May 12, 2007 7:48 AM
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here's a coherent description of the problem -- worth reading:
http://www.eternityroad.info/index.php/weblog/single/2369/
Posted by: StillBreathing![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 12, 2007 8:22 AM
Congratulations to Victor Hou who nailed this slippery tongued bastard-Mr Hou is obviously familiar with the Koran unlike many other Western
lawyers.
Presumably this would be Jihadist took the Hippocratic Oath?? Promising to save lives not to
KILL people...Silly me-of course the lives of Infidels have no worth unless they are paying Jizya to Muslims.
at May 12, 2007 8:24 AM
Many Muslims and Muslim apologists will say the Doctor represents the extreme. They will say that Islam must be judged by the "mainstream".
I think we should rethink this conventional wisdom re "extremes". Many say (on a number of issues, not just Islam) that we cannot judge a thing by its extremes. However, I think the opposite is true. We must judge the whole of any system by the extremes, especially by extremes tolerated by the belief-system, ideology, etc. Islam as a whole must be judged by the deceivers, by the violent, by the Jew-haters, by the killers, etc. The "extremes" write in large letters the meaning of the whole and any general tolerance of the extremes by the whole validates the "extremes" as arch-typical of the belief-system.
Don't we judge the Nazis by the extremes, Germans of the Nazi era by what they tolerated? Anything should be judged by the "extremes", especially by any "extremes" that tend to be tolerated by the whole group.
I think the axiom here is: If we take any system, ideology, "religion", etc. we must judge the whole by the extremes, and especially by any "extremes" that tend to be tolerated by the whole. Conventional wisdom is wrong when it says we judge a system by the "moderates".
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 8:33 AM
This nonsense (CAIR, Armstrong, etc.) that Islam cannot be judged by the extremes is an unconscious attempt to nip critical thinking in the bud. The opposite is true. The extremes (especially any "extremes" that tend to be tolerated by the whole) are essential to a system. The system must be judged by any extremes and especially by any extremes that tend to be tolerated by the whole.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 8:46 AM
Wasn't Dr. Josef Mengele an extreme tolerated by the whole? Mengele was not a "moderate" and therefore tells us best what the Nazis as a whole are. The Jihadists, the Jew-haters, the Muslim killers, the deceivers, tell us clearly what Islam is. This stuff that we should not use "extremes" to judge the whole is nonsense.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 9:31 AM
I woke up this morning thinking about this-LOL. The "extremes" and any "extremes" that tend to be tolerated by the whole are what the whole is at its essence-its center. The "mainstream" is not the core, but tends to be the fringe of the core.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 9:44 AM
l have found that most of CAIR types talk real smooth, but when they are asked do you support Hammas, Hizbollah (who kill civilians) they are then tongue tied, and sputter with all kinds of excuses.
Most of these islamist on the outside act normal to Westerners, but you just need to scratch the first layers and they go bonkers, even their appologists.
l have a few family members who are liberal and appologists for the poor palis,etc. l have found this site wonderful for being able to bring out facts and deflate their arguments and they get hysterical.
l find it difficult to control my laughter and or anger at these types. but we all need to practice and with enough good facts and just common sense, we can get people to question the media's lack of real
rerporting.
at May 12, 2007 10:03 AM
ZenaWarriorPrincess-
This is a great site. Someday in the future it will be considered historic for its influence. We are part of history in a posty way-LOL.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 10:10 AM
Zena/Frank:
There seems to be marriage of convenience between the Left/MSN and the Islamists. Essentially, the common enemy (for now) is the Bush Administration and the military. What the Left cannot recognize is that jihadists abhor EVERYTHING the Left represents: gay rights, pornography (i.e. freedom of speech), minority rights, etc.
For now, the Islamists are using the Left as a means to an end...
http://toddanthony.squarespace.com
Posted by: Todd Anthony at May 12, 2007 10:34 AM
The extreme is the core of a belief-system. The "moderates" tolerate it for that reason, though they are not at the core of the system.
Sometime ago Hugh made the point that when we think of Christianity being taken to the extreme we think of total non-violence, total rejection of all hypocrisy, pacifism etc. and that when Islam is taken to the "extreme" we think of its violence, deception, etc. This may also be said for Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. But it tells us that we find the core beliefs of anything in its extremes, that the "mainstream" is a dull outer shell and fringe of the burning core of the star.
What is the extreme of Hinduism? Buddhism? Christianity? Any belief-system? Islam? In the "extreme" behavior are the core beliefs.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 10:39 AM
Ah! the incredible Myth again, Islam defined as the "Religion of peace" But if Islam was held to the standard by which the West is judged and condemned (slavery, imperialism, intolerance, women's rights, warfare...) were applied equally to Islam, the verdict would be absolutely devastating to human rights. There are so many Surahs that call Muslims who do not join the fight, 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter towards non Muslims.
Unfortunately, there are few, if any, verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence and Muhammad's own martial tradition have resulted in a trail of blood and bodies across world history for 1,300 plus years.
The Quran's path to Medina is still the perfect word and has not been allowed to change for over 1,300 years. Still the king has no clothes and yet very few have taken the time to notice.
Cases like this have been playing out across America with ever increasing regularity from Lodi to Lakawana.
Just once I would like to see an expose blasted all over the Duranty times on a trial like this doctors trial and maybe,just maybe someone might notice the kings folly.Even this Muslim Doctors medical oath does no trump the ugly and violent teachings of Islam. Islam remains an aggressive cancer that continues to spread if not aggressively treated in the western world. Still very few notice that our own freedoms present out greatest strength as well as our greatest weakness.
The perversion of multiculturalism and its PC brother are the ones who keep sending out invitations to this cancer and this has got to be stopped before we look like France, and Britain in the USA.
Posted by: Mackie at May 12, 2007 10:40 AM
This is the article where this comment belongs.
Jihad Army Rev. 1:
There is a jihad army at work in the good ole US of A. They don't have parades or wear uniforms or attend reunions. They are not organized in divisions or brigades, and some units do not even communicate with other groups or know of their existence. It is no less an army than a real army with a chain of command, generals, captains, and enlisted men. Like all armies, there are support troops, quartermasters, teamsters, armorers, cooks, and intellegence units. The jihad army also has its support troops. The self proclaimed moderates who provide safe houses, money, alibis, excuses, and cover are the supporters. Groups like CAIR are part of the overt intellegence and disinformation apparatus. Individuals like Armstrong are the collaborators who either through their idiocy or ulterior motives also spread disinformation. Some supporters are voluntary, some are recruited, and some do not even know that they are supporting a jihad army. Like all armies operating in a foreign land, this army has its resistance and collaborators.
Those people who support jihad directly or the aplologist-collaborators who support jihad indirectly through their mantras about the Religion of Peace are just as guilty as those jihad soldiers on the front lines. These suporters and collaborators will someday have to pay the price for their treachery.
Posted by: Pelayo at May 12, 2007 10:46 AM
"For now, the Islamists are using the Left as a means to an end..."
The visual-diversity-multicultural left is clueless. They think they are using "political Islam". It reminds me of how the industrialists, the "moderates" of Germany thought they were using Hitler for their purposes. Many ended up in concentration camps and quite dead. Hitler devoured people who tried to use him. Even Stalin found that out. Islam will devour the left.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 10:47 AM
Yesterday there was an article and thread here on JW re: using the Koran in taking the oath to tell the truth in US court proceedings.
(Query- does anyone know whether Sabir swore on a Bible before testifying?)
My comment there was that any Muslim who dares swear on a Koran and attempts to testify to the truth ought to be cross examined on tenets found therein the Koran. Such cross examination would have to be conducted by an attorney schooled on the more specific contents of the Koran that condone deception. And, if done correctly, it could reveal the willingness, nay the duty, of muslims to lie and decieve in furthrance of Jihad.
Well Mr Hou seems to have schooled himself very well in preparation for his cross examination. His endeavor to learn about the call to violence found in the various places within the Koran probably nailed this Jihadist by his gonads. Hou probably did nothing more than take the time to study the nature and history of Islam and the Koran. Maybe he visited this site. Maybe he read Robert's books and Hughs essays? How long could that take. If only politicians would be so dedicated.
I recall Robert stating that he was scheduled to speak to a group of FBI agents and the engagement was cancelled. I hope it was re-scheduled and they now book you regularly from Portland to Puget Sound.
I will write Mr Hou to offer congratulations on his cross examination. I will also ask how I may obtain a court transcript of same. That transript will show how easy it may be to probe into the mind of an outwardly appearing peaceful man by doing nothing more than pointing out references to the very texts of the holy books all outwardly peaceful muslims hold so dear. That line of questioning ought to become part of standard fare for any attorney with the opportunity to to cross examine any outwardly "peaceful Muslim" attempting to defend himself against charges of violence against non-muslims.
at May 12, 2007 10:57 AM
Frank, that's exactly what I'm saying...Islam, particulary MILITANT Islam, despises EVERYTHING the Left stands for...
You're completely right about the cluelessness of the Left. Basically, they're merely pawns. And CAIR and other civil liberties groups represent the political wing/component of militantism. The jihadists have used our civil liberties against us to gain a toehold in our society.
--Todd
http://toddanthony.squarespace.com
at May 12, 2007 11:04 AM
The left is Stalinist in nature these days, the islamists are Hitleristic. If you will recall Stalin and Hitler made a pact together, but Hitler didn’t stick to it. And this about describes it, European history repeating itself here in America.
Posted by: tgusa at May 12, 2007 11:14 AM
Tgusa: you're exactly right...If I'm not mistaken the Nazis were fascists, as are the Islamic militants...
http://toddanthony.squarespace.com
Posted by: Todd Anthony at May 12, 2007 11:19 AM
Todd-
I used to try to analyse the "liberal" left and their attitude to Islam, but it made no sense on any logical basis. They even support the establishment of Sharia law based foot-baths in the bathrooms at airports.
But the truth is that people such as Gloria Sondheim types, etc. would end up in Burkas if these guys got their way, homosexuals would be stoned to death, etc. The only explanation I've ever come across re their "tolerance" that makes any sense is Mike Savage's theory that a lot of these folks are on prescription drugs/and smoking pot. I think Savage nailed the truth on this. I think a lot of these folks are speaking from their medicine cabinet.
A lot of the "liberal" left don't want any judgements of their "lifestyle" and the Muslims use their "tolerance" for their purposes. But as Mike Savage once said, "they are knitting their burkas".
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 11:24 AM
Frank: I think the Left is so blinded by Bush and the "his" war on terror, that they are willing to embrace ANYONE opposed to his "hegemony". I work with a gal who is SOOO Left and so anti-Bush that she will NOT recognize the danger of the Islam and his militant wing. When I've castigated her for rather wearing a Burkha or living under Sharia law, she brushes that notion off that Islam is not capable of that here.
Unfortunately, we're seeing Sharia strongholds envelop in Europe, that I don't see it as that far out of the realm of possibility here...
Posted by: Todd Anthony at May 12, 2007 11:54 AM
Any potsmoker who was not previously insane would have to be out of their minds now to support the stalinazis. Do they have any idea what the punishment for doing that sort of thing in islamist areas is? Pot has been blamed for everything over the last century but it has been around for that long and longer as well as cocaine lsd and other drugs, heck even bad alcohol yet we saw no huge number of mentally ill then. What has changed, I think prozac nation fits well and yes that would mean the medicine chest is speaking. I have noticed an ever increasing number of people who are seemingly mentally ill and I’m starting to think that prescription drugs are the culprit. Now this doesnt mean that pot/alcohol dont cause their fair share of problems i just see a bigger menace one that your trusted doctor recomends.
Posted by: tgusa at May 12, 2007 11:56 AM
For example, Savage makes a very good point re Rosie O'Dumbell. O'Dumbell says she takes prescription drugs because of her "depression". But as Savage said, "maybe she should be depressed". Maybe depression is an invitation to her to become a strong-healthy soul, but instead she masks a normal state and speaks from her medicine cabinet. At the core of depression is a sense that one has lost control over things that impact our lives. The answer is to take control/responsibility of one's life, not wear a chemical mask.
I think it was Rilke who said that one should be wary of getting rid of one's demons, masking them, because in getting rid of the demons we also get rid of our angels. Such conflict is good. Rosie O'Dumbell types want an end to such conflict, an end to judgements. They will even knit burkas to avoid judgement.
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 11:58 AM
This is what bi-laden asked for. Them to become doctors and get into our system! The damage they could do!
Posted by: MZ at May 12, 2007 12:58 PM
There are tons pf these people living in a compound in upper New York state and in other compounds like in virginia and Georgia.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/paul-williams051107.htm
Nothing is being done about these lawless bigots who are terrorizing their neighbors.
They are part of Prislam.
Posted by: Allahfanculo at May 12, 2007 1:21 PM
Compound? They are building us compounds with which we will house them temporarily after the next big hit? How thoughtful of them. Its going to have to be a military operation, the cops/feds are not set up to assault a fortified position, and shooting tear gas or rubber bullets at them isn’t going to do it. Think about it, remember Wako? Now imagine there are real crazed lunatics in there coming for you, well you get the picture.
Posted by: tgusa at May 12, 2007 1:44 PM
This doctor has a history of lawlessness, supporting jihad and he resented having to pay back his student loans.What's interesting is that the others involved in the plot pleaded guilty and took plea bargains while this yahoo decided to go to trial.Hopefully he'll be convicted and be thrown under the jail.
Posted by: Roxane at May 12, 2007 1:52 PM
"That’s God’s word. I have to believe in it," Sabir said.
Well, here is link to a load full of thousands of his friends of TI members that FBI should think about questioning.... these people have larger than what I thought communties here on my shores..
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ticollegerabwah.com/ryahya.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ticollegerabwah.com/canada.htm&h=598&w=640&sz=56&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=-0dHhTuvV9DTvM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRafiq%2BAbdus%2BSabir%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
It wont be too long, I'll give less than ten years, when the Muslimes will tell us that this is not our country...
We have a huge problem at hands. We should try replace them with more acceptable immigrants from other non-islamic cultures.
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at May 12, 2007 2:45 PM
Sorry the link posted didnt work..try searching "Rafiq Abdus Sabir" under goole-images. It is the second image that I homed onto..
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at May 12, 2007 2:48 PM
MusHuntCowby - while I agree with your thoughts, we certainly don't need replace our muslim immigrants with immigrants from anywhere, at least for a period of a few years, we are being flooded with immigrants from the four corners of the world. What the American people want is an immigration "time-out", which would help assimilate our more recent immigrants and also help boost wages for Americans with low-skills, as their wages have bottomed out thanks to the never ending supply of illegals from 'ol Mexico. Mexico is a wealthy country and we can not continue to allow them to push tens of millions of their countrymen into our nation, have them work illegally and send money back to their home country. It's a financial scam, nothing more.
Back to muslim immigrants......all Western nations need to reduce their intake of muslim immigrants, only braid-dead pc types in the media, academia and pandering politicians can not or will not speak the obvious. These people are loyal to the muslim umma, to the "nation" of Islam, they are reluctant to assimilate and they often expect if not demand their host country to accomodate their every religious/cultural practice, no matter how bizarre, primitive or fringe.
Remember, the more muslims that settle in your area, the more mosques that are built, the more "primitive" your community will become. Take it from a life-long resident of Dearborn, Michigan (capital of Islamic USA).
Posted by: Nessus at May 12, 2007 3:54 PM
If this guy wants to treat Jihadi fighters in foreign lands he should join Doctors Without Scruples, which is what happens when Doctors Without Borders go too far.
Posted by: jewdog at May 12, 2007 4:36 PM
Frank posted: What is the extreme of Hinduism? Buddhism? Christianity? Any belief-system? Islam? In the "extreme" behavior are the core beliefs.
Exactly. And it is known as fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Buddhists or Christians are pacifist in the extreme, ie they are extremists if you like. Fundamentalist Muslims are quite the reverse. And yet, Muslims/Leftists/Liberals, will knowingly use the term "fundamentalist Christians" to imply that Christians are violent fanatics. This is an obvious ploy to deflect criticism of Islam.
at May 12, 2007 4:39 PM
Re: Islamic compounds
Has anyone near them tried to get the guards angry enough to do something really stupid like what happened at the Aryan Nations compound in Hayden Lake, Idaho? Maybe we could quickly own these compounds with the ask the guard the right questions about Islam.
Karl
Posted by: schwaben at May 12, 2007 5:01 PM
My disagreements with a couple of posts...
Frank..I agree with the nature of your post on Nazism, but I think that you choice of Dr. Mengele as an example was off target. Unlike our Jihadists of today, Dr. Mengeles actions were unknown to all but a very few in Germany before the wars end. If you'd chosen Goebbels or Himmler as an example, I'd support your view 100.
DP111...Fundementalist Christians aren't pacifist in nature, or at least not all of them. I don't see blowing up abortion clinics as a pacifist act, espcially as most of the bombings occur when the clinics are occupied.
Karl
Posted by: schwaben at May 12, 2007 5:06 PM
"If this guy wants to treat Jihadi fighters in foreign lands he should join Doctors Without Scruples, which is what happens when Doctors Without Borders go too far".
Posted by: jewdog at May 12, 2007 04:36 PM
Very funny-LOL. Man we need to laugh..
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 5:06 PM
the Columbia University-trained physician was forced to acknowledge a history of family violence, a fascination with weapons and a belief that good Muslims should engage in armed jihad, or holy war.
If only people would address the real root causes of terrorism: poverty and more education.
Posted by: kamala at May 12, 2007 5:25 PM
Here is a classic doublespeak comment that illustrates the dhimmi media's mental fog.
"...six Muslim men planning to attack soldiers at Fort Dix for the glory of Allah, leaving many to wonder what caused them to turn on America.
GEOFF MULVIHILL, Associated Press
05/12/2007 in the Trentonian.com
http://www.trentonian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18333365&BRD=1697&PAG=461&dept_id=44551&rfi=6
Posted by: infidelion1095 at May 12, 2007 5:28 PM
oops--should have said "not enough education." Clearly more than an MD from Columbia is needed.
Posted by: kamala at May 12, 2007 5:33 PM
From the link provoded by infidelion1095 at May 12, 2007 05:28 PM
---the dhimmi media's mental fog----
Harvey Kushner, a terrorism expert at Long Island University, said ....
"Terrorists come in all shapes and forms, all genders ... different ages, different nationalities,’’ he said. "All of the things that make up the rainbow coalition of people make up terrorists.’’
End ---the dhimmi media's mental fog----
I say "Terrorists come from the Islamic culture, it is that simple."
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at May 12, 2007 5:59 PM
schwaben-
You are right. Mengele is not a good example of the extreme since he was not well known. But extreme Nazi behavior was validated by the generally "moderate" tolerance of the extreme behavior.
I now think the so-called "extreme" always represents core belief, and that is validated by the "moderate" masses of people that tolerate the extreme behavior. For example, Dorothy Day's idea of sacrifice for the poor and non-violence (in the Catholic Worker movement) is not accepted practice by most Catholics, but her behavior is/was tolerated by Catholics because they understand it is reflective of the core message of Christ. "Moderate" Catholics are less intense re the core than Dorothy Day, but the tolerance to her is because she represents core belief re the message of Christ. Otherwise, there would be a massive and very vocal rejection of the behavior of Dorothy Day and the Catholic Workers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Day
Posted by: Frank at May 12, 2007 6:06 PM
StillBreathing ……
Here's a coherent solution to the problem.
http://www.tourarena.ru/ta2graph.nsf/Graph/Scientific_bomb.explosion/$File/bomb.explosion.jpg
at May 12, 2007 6:07 PM
Maybe it's me, but this clowns rhetoric bears an uncanny similarity to that of adolph eichmanns.
(in effect)...
"wow, all I did was kill a bunch of jews...just doin' my job, so what's the problem?"
What's the next pathetically laughable line?
"Oh, we're not an einsatzgruppen...we're a...ummm... errr, an ERsatzgruppen! Yeah! That's the ticket!"
I suppose this clown is also going to invoke entrapment, too.
Iagree with Robert totally on this one...
Mmmmm HMMMMMmmmmm.
Posted by: jcom972 at May 12, 2007 6:26 PM
DP111...Fundementalist Christians aren't pacifist in nature, or at least not all of them. I don't see blowing up abortion clinics as a pacifist act, espcially as most of the bombings occur when the clinics are occupied. Posted by: schwaben
The issue of abortion clinics is the one frequently brought to equate Christian fundamentalists to Islamic ones. This is certainly interesting. Christians would argue that the mass murder of defenceless unborn babies is one of the greatest crimes in history. The question arises, is it moral to use violence against those who continue with this practice.
I for one cannot make up my mind on this issue, but to take this issue to show the equivalence of Christian fundamentalists to Islamic ones, is false.
Posted by: DP111 at May 12, 2007 6:32 PM
This is written from memory invloving my perception of the problem.
Attacks on abortion clinics have been linked to no more than a dozen people in the past umpteen years. How does that compare to the numbers of people involved in violent Muslim jihad?
Violence perpetrated by Christians to further a version of Christian fundamentalism is really nonexistant as compared to violent jihad.
I suggest, Herr Schwaben, that by citing false moral equivalency you are assisting the Jihad Army.
Posted by: Pelayo at May 12, 2007 7:44 PM
schwaben
Contrary to the beliefs of DP111, I HAVE made up MY mind on how I feel about so called christian fundamentalists murdering people in abortion clinics.
They are on an equal par with their islamic brethren who also use murder as a form of persuasion.
“In the sense” that they would use extreme violence to force their own views on those who believe otherwise, they are no different than the horde of vile islamic murderers
at May 12, 2007 7:54 PM
“In the sense” that they would use extreme violence to force their own views on those who believe otherwise, they are no different than the horde of vile islamic murderers"-Freedom
I agree. But there are so few of them (violent clinic terrorists)because their beliefs are not tolerated by the vast majority of Christians. However, there would be many clinics blown-up if they had broad toleration among Christians. Such clinic violence is not tolerated by mainstream Christians, Evangelical or otherwise. That's the difference with Islam. The violence of the "extreme" by Muslims is tolerated by them or else such violence would be very limited everywhere by a very vocal and very angry Muslim mainstream directing its ire at people acting in their name.
at May 12, 2007 8:46 PM
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/IslambergCFP051107
Terrorist training in America – courtesy of Pakistani Sheikh Gilani
Submitted by admin on Fri, 2007-05-11 17:06. U.S. News
By Douglas J. Hagmann, Director
"The place is dangerous. You can hear gunfire up there. I can't understand why the FBI won't shut it down."
The sentry, at the time of this visit, is an African American dressed in Islamic garb - - a skull cap, a prayer shawl, and a loose fitting shalwat kameez. He instructs us to turn around and leave. "Our community is not open to visitors," he says.
11 May 2007: Make no mistake, Islamic terrorist training camps are physically here in America, operating with apparent impunity for fear of legal or other more threatening reprisals against those who dare shine the investigative spotlight onto them and their activities. Our INVESTIGATIVE REPORT: Exposing Terrorists in our Midst (PDF file) about one such compound - Islamberg - brought the visceral rhetoric and wrath from Pakistani terrorist leader Sheikh Mubarek Gilani following our investigation of that site last year. Now, author and tenacious investigative journalist Dr. Paul Williams, who devotes a chapter in his new book The Day of Islam to our investigation of that community, offers new details about the activities taking place there.
It is important to read the complete story at Canada Free Press. It will enlighten you, and if nothing else, should make you angry. Damn angry.
http://www.iqou-moa.org/editorial/terror_roots.htm
Exposing Roots of Terrorism In U.S.
On the 12th of February, a so-called ‘interim investigative report’ by an unknown private individual who called himself ‘CP’ investigator and Douglas J. Hagmann , with the internet address, www.homelandsecurityus.com, was released. This highly questionable report about Muslims of the Americas (MOA), their town Islamberg, NY, the International Quranic Open University (IQOU), and the Vice Chancellor of IQOU, is a small part of a campaign of hate, fabricated falsehood, lies, and appalling propaganda aimed at bringing about a clash between Muslims and Christians the world over, and particularly in the United States (U.S.) As the Imam of the Muslims of the Americas and Vice Chancellor of IQOU, I take this opportunity to expose this recurring scheme of deception and falsehood conjured up by vested interests.
at May 12, 2007 10:09 PM
Todd Anthony: Methinks Bush be with socialists/liberals more than against them. Traditional right are no-nonsense, small government, patriotic types. Bush isn't on the left for sure but definitely not on the right either. He's centre. He will suck up to Muslims whenever he gets a chance (I'll never forget the: "Islam (pause) is a religion of peace!" bit) and he's a proponent of globalization.
Posted by: SerbInfidel at May 12, 2007 10:19 PM
All the pictures on the wall at my doctors were muslim! I asked for american made! They gave me Dr. Hussuin!!! I was going to ask if he was related?! They took all the pictures down of the headdress women 1992, and you can still see where their pictures where! Now that is my fault too! oh hell!!! well! I have one now again too! I don't go back and he calls ME!!!
Posted by: MZ at May 13, 2007 12:17 AM
Just discovered a website called Stop the Islamization of Europe
They look interesting and even have a section for people who want to take action. For example, a Danish group is seeking to bring a lawsuit against the Danish government for refusing to outlaw Quran verses contrary to the Danish constitution. (Verses that incite violent action against a group, for example.) The website shows a bank account number where one can send money if one wishes to fund the lawsuit.
Posted by: traeh at May 13, 2007 1:44 AM
... if Islam really teaches peace, how did Rafiq Abdus Sabir and so many others get it all so terribly wrong? - RS
Quote of the month.
Posted by: joeblough at May 13, 2007 4:11 PM
Suggestion: if you have a friend, family member, workmate or co-religionist who is a lawyer, ask them if they have read Joseph Schacht's "An Introduction to Islamic Law", or that handbook guide to Sharia that Robert refers to - the "Reliance of the Traveller". If they haven't - tell them that since they are going to have Muslim clients sooner or later, they had better buy copies and do their homework. At the same time: bring them up to speed on taqiyya and kitman! Tell them about all the nasty verses in the Qur'an, and point them to the 'PIG to Islam and the Crusades'. Stress to your lawyer friend/ relative/ neighbour that the more devout and 'religious' a Muslim is, the more likely they are to regard our entire legal and political system as so much kaffir rubbish, totally non-binding upon their lordly Muslim selves, to be ignored, flouted or subverted wherever possible as a matter of religious duty. (Share the same uncomfortable truth with any policemen you happen to know).
Anybody posting/ reading here who is practising in the area of criminal law? Best take notes on Victor Hou's cross-examination of the jihadist doctor.
If you have friends/ family/ colleagues who are health professionals - beg them to keep an eye on their Muslim colleagues and cite the case of this jihadist doctor. Don't go by what they say, or how nicely they smile, or where they graduated - go by the medical outcomes of their non-Muslim patients.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 13, 2007 6:10 PM
"if Islam really teaches peace, how did Rafiq Abdus Sabir and so many others get it all so terribly wrong? And what are you peaceful types doing to make sure there are no more Rafiq Abdus Sabirs?
"
I ask this about Christianity all the time. You see, if Jesus really taught a message of peace, how come Christians killed so many people.
Christianity spread through Europe accompanied by the genocidal campaign to rid the earth of Druidic religions. They massacred Muslims during the crusades. They tortured and killed Jews and Muslims throughout the middle-ages. They pushed opium onto the Chinese before the Boxer rebellion. Black slavery was justified by Christian ministers. The Nazi's were Christian (OK... the people who called themselves Nazi's also called themselves Christian). And uh, the Oklahoma City bombings anyone?
You people say Christians are not committing as much terrorist acts as Muslims. If you look at that from a historical perspective, its wrong.
What did church leaders do to ensure there are no more abortion clinic bombings and Holocosts etc? Yes, some speak out. And you know what? Many Mullahs (in the US anyway) speak out against violence. Yet you people hold Muslims as a group accountable for the actions of a few crazies...
I think Christianity as a whole should be judged by the deceivers and haters. In fact, I think that if Jesus was really divine (as Christians claim he is, and that his divinity was different from other Children of G_d), and that if he really knew about what would happen in the future, then he would not have let himself be crucified... because he would have be reviled at all the horrible things Christians have done in his name.
Oh, and one more thing...
"The issue of abortion clinics is the one frequently brought to equate Christian fundamentalists to Islamic ones. This is certainly interesting. Christians would argue that the mass murder of defenceless unborn babies is one of the greatest crimes in history. The question arises, is it moral to use violence against those who continue with this practice."
I think that the Muslim terrorist world-view is essentially extreamly distored...as is the world view of most fundamentalists and all terrorists. However, what this poster has spelled out here is the exact thinking of the terrorists. They see their own cultures and societies as defenceless against attacks from the West.
Posted by: Ogami_ito at May 14, 2007 5:25 AM
"They massacred Muslims during the crusades."
....true , but only after hundreds of years of Muslim atrocities and violence...
The Christians finally retaliated...just as they are beginning to do now....
Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 15, 2007 11:44 AM
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