Hey Robert:

Do you need a shovel & hip-waders for all that BS they're trying to throw out at us? I have extras.
lol

Posted by: jcom972 at May 23, 2007 9:12 AM

Robert wrote:
"The Post's story seems to be based on the proposition that all is well here because things are worse in Europe, which is like saying that your cold is cured because the guy across the street has pneumonia."

Excellent, spot-on analysis Robert. It is truly a disgusting display by the Post.

It took a poll of Muslims and removed them from the equation. It is suggesting that something about America promotes Muslim assimilation, that our system here of capitulation to and understanding of Muslims is the cause of this assimilation, that ironically is not shared by European Muslims under their respective European governments.

It is suggesting that Europe needs to do more to coerce their Muslim populations to assimilate into their specific cultures. Once again, it's someone else's fault, and Muslims are obviously blameless in their beliefs and attitudes towards their host countries.

Suggesting that America's attitude towards their current Muslim immigrants and future immigrants is on the right path, to be emulated, based on the European comparison in that absurd poll, is nothing short of irresponsible.

Take the percentage of the Muslim population currently in the US and compare that to the Muslim percentage of any European country and all your answers will be revealed.

Maybe it has something to do with strength in numbers???

As Muslim population percentages go up, their willingness to assimilate culturally goes down...Period.

Posted by: awake at May 23, 2007 9:21 AM

jcom - could you go back to the "Iran" thread of yesterday and see what I posted in reply to you and additional comments? Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Posted by: darcy at May 23, 2007 9:22 AM

Coming to a supermatket near you:
"I'm so surprised
"He was such a quiet religious boy

Ad nauseum.

Posted by: dgene at May 23, 2007 9:41 AM

#1. I don't believe polls.
#2. I don't believe that muslims are assimilating. No one that I know has a muslim as a friend. I don't see muslims in places that I go to, such as movies, at restaurants, skating rinks, malls, the town festivals in the area, baseball or football games, in the tourist areas, and when I see muslims going grocery shopping the women are always accompanied by a man and it is always after 9pm. I do see muslims on Bart and that is all. I see muslims around the streets, but they are always by themselves or with other muslims.

And women in the tents with little peep holes that I have seen them wear doesn't make one want to say hi. There are muslim stores but they are surrounded my muslim males just standing around and watching and it is unnerving. I don't go into those stores.

I do see muslims on Bart, but even then the women always keep their eyes down. Sometimes I think they are trying to appear 'holy' but what they appear to me is that they are downtrodden, suppressed. I don't see the specialness that they might think they exude. I don't know - I just don't think that they are assimilating like some really would wish they were doing.

And I also know of black muslim stores in Oakland but I don't go to those because of their hating white people. I don't go put my money in other's hands who hate me.

Posted by: R_not at May 23, 2007 9:43 AM

um, exactly how many suicide bombers does it take to kill you? If there are only a few, then it's not a problem? That's like falling into a nest of snakes, and saying it wasn't a problem because only one bit you! Truly critical thinking is a lost art in this country.

Posted by: dreadpirat at May 23, 2007 9:45 AM

I’m not surprised by the poll results, I’m not convinced that the poll has given us any real answers based on truth. My problem is, if we have to have a survey of whether or not killing to defend your religion is ok we have a serious problem. I don’t care if it is 1% it doesn’t matter. The fact that we are having this discussion speaks volumes. So we have the mexicans(aka hispanics) invading our country demanding that we fork it over, we have the blacks converting to islam and predictably blaming whites for all their problems. Now we have muslims who think it is ok to blow us up if they think we have insulted their religion. Well I am insulted by all three of these things and I have had enough. The media, minorities or anyone else that wants to lay the blame on us should get out, go live with them, assimilate! Hey you minorities out there, the islamists teach hate and so do you, the islamists are failures, primarily because of their culture of hate so if that’s where you want to end up be prepared cause when the **** hits the fan you are going to be asked to leave, no, you will be told to get out and take your hateful bs somewhere else. Hey, I'm not anti minority, I'm anti hostile minority and these days, everywhere I look, thats what I see.

Posted by: tgusa at May 23, 2007 9:59 AM

The US attracts Muslims with many different agendas. Even with all the multicultural rhetoric flying thick and fast, America still assimilates peoples with astonishing success. The rate of apostasy in the Muslim community here is high. We should bear in mind that America produced the St. Petersburg declaration. It is terrible that there are still Muslims living in the west who support Jihad terror, but there is a greater context, and it is not about polls and percentages. When you compare the effect of American Jihad-supporters with that of reformers and critics of all stripes, there is a lot of good going on. Isn't JW part of that - aren't we part of it too?

The changing of views on Islam is taking place at an astonishing speed, and it is affecting Muslims, not only here but all over the world. This is the reason for the cartoon violence - they are really threatened by us, and they can't shut us up no matter how many people they kill. Those days are over, particularly in the United States, but more and more so even in Europe, and our ideas are spreading into their oppressed nations as well. To focus, for instance, on individual incidents of dhimmitude in the west (laudable though it is to expose it) is to miss the greater picture of increasing skeptical inquiry, spreading understanding of the actions and message of Muhammad, and Islamic laws and practices at odds with universal human rights.

I have mentioned before on this forum that there is a benefit to Muslim immigration that is not readily apparent, that it will enable reform to take place among Muslims both here and in the Islamic world, and I believe that process is moving forward. It will happen in parallel with Jihad and terrorism, but it will happen nonetheless. We will see Muslims support Jihad and terror, as they have since the time of Muhammad, but the worm has turned. Even if they commit more spectacular acts of terror they will still lose. The tide of history and truth is against them, and these are the kind of things in the modern era that are harder than ever to swim against.

After all, we are right, and that counts for something.

Posted by: Quijybo at May 23, 2007 10:07 AM

People - remember when the PC Emory "Wheel" was on a thread here due to the backlash against Robert's article?

Well, I just went over there to see what was happening and amazingly, the PC Wheel has published 2 remarks by a "stephanie" that are NOT PC!

If you've a mind to, go and check them out! The two articles she commented on are 1, "Farrow tells of trips to Darfur on Class Day," and 2, "Kosher Slaughter Designed to Minimize Animal Suffering."

Truly, I couldn't believe my eyes the PC Wheel actually published "stephanie's" comments!

Posted by: darcy at May 23, 2007 10:14 AM

"...if 13% of Christians had been polled as supporting suicide bombing. Do you think the WaPo headline would have been that Christians are "opposed to extremism"? "

So let me get this straight…out of a random poll of 1050 or so Muslims, 13% turn up to support suicide bombing. If this is a direct representation of the 1.4 million Muslims in the U.S. over 18, then 182,000 is definitely a number to be gravely concerned about.

Phone records need to be pulled from PEW immediately and a massive investigation should be underway.

Someone correct my numbers if I am wrong but the only reassuring thing about this report is that we are extremely justified to be profiling with prejudice.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at May 23, 2007 10:15 AM

tgusa,

It might be that you don't see Muslims in many places because the Muslims who DO assimilate do not bother to take on the outward appearance of Muslims. You see Jews everywhere, but they don't wear black hats and sidelocks (I am not making a cultural equivalence, just one of appearances). There are a lot of black African and Asian Muslims who don't make a big show of it. I do know one, from Nigeria, but then again he is a Christian now and clearly embarrassed by ever being associated with Jihadist nutjobs. Non-assimilation is a huge problem, but it is happening as well in many places among Muslims with consciences.

As for the Black Muslims, their cult has its converts, but plenty of African Americans leave it as well. African Americans bear a lot of resentment for their history which is both understandable and horribly destructive to their success in the modern world. That dovetails nicely with Islam. However I do not think Islam is really competitive with Christianity as a majority religion among African Americans, and the more Muslims make fools of themselves the harder time they have finding and keeping converts, and there is no reason to think that does not hold for African Americans.

Posted by: Quijybo at May 23, 2007 10:20 AM

The 'multi-colored fishwrap' AKA USA Today trumpeted the story as the main headline this morning! ... "POLL: American Muslims Reject Extremes". Niiiiice. In the fine print on page 11A, we see the 26% of under 30's who think suicide bombing is justified.

Even wholesale whitewashing, and explaining away anything negative under the guise of "racial discrimination", "economic conditions", and singling out muslims for extra survelliance -- cannot change the fact that a full quarter of the 2.6M muslims in the US are ok with murdering their fellow citizens.

What was particular contorted: "The survey shows that 47% of Muslims consider themselves Muslim first and Americans second" ... then, in a classic spin -- say that MORE (62%) of "white evangelicals" identify with being Christian before American. If only this were apples-to-apples ... Christians render to Caesar, Muslims don't distinguish between religion and politics/nationality.

Sickening.

Posted by: blues4allah at May 23, 2007 10:23 AM

R_not: Excellent observations...and, by the way, I don't see Muslims at the vet's office where I take my dogs either. They appear in public places only out of necessity..for their work or for must-do shopping. I have never seen a Muslim at a parade or a circus or some event important to the local community.

Posted by: maryrose at May 23, 2007 10:34 AM

Muhammadans will always, always, always, have surplus rug rats. What with four wives (or more) to each man, not only do they breed like rats, they don't bond as nuclear families. Like the bin-laden family with its 75+ kids (Osama's dad had innumerable wives--he was on his way to marry a 23-year-old when his plane crashed). The old man couldn't remember is own childrens' names or faces. Possibly he had never met some of them.

If suicide is part of their m.o., well what do you expect from these unloved and loveless breeders?

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at May 23, 2007 10:37 AM

The Pew Global Attitudes Project is co-chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright, currently principal, the Albright Group LLC, and by former Senator John C. Danforth, currently partner, Bryan Cave LLP.

Explains much.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at May 23, 2007 10:42 AM

I have not read how this PEW poll was conducted yet, but my first thought was that there has to be a large portion that will not even admit to what they really think if they are indeed devout Muslims that follow the teachings of the Qu'ran.

But will even this wake up the Sleeping giant of American naiveness's dhimmi-status that seems to still be everywhere no matter how much evidence is thrown at them?

There are still way to many Americans who think that the radical Muslims are not following the true teachings of the Qu'ran. If only they would open it up and just read a few of the 114 surahs that preach about jihad and the abode of war, dar-al-harb. Whether it is Mohammeds rode to Mecca, or his violent aggressive road to Medina, Muslims consider all the words of the Qu'ran to be perfect.

So as in the Christian Religion there is no no NEW TESTAMENT to be gathered.

Posted by: Mackie at May 23, 2007 10:43 AM

"Take the percentage of the Muslim population currently in the US and compare that to the Muslim percentage of any European country and all your answers will be revealed."

Look further into local percentages compared to local assimilation. Dearbornistan and Minneapolistan are prime examples.

The higher the percentage, the less assimilation.

Posted by: walterc at May 23, 2007 10:51 AM

Many Muslim "religious" leaders, including Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi and Salah Soltan (formerly of Columbus OH), defend and promote suicide bombing. Are we surprised that a significant number of American Muslims agree with their leaders?

Posted by: Miss Kelly at May 23, 2007 10:51 AM

What these Pollyannas fail to grasp is:

You Have To Worry About the Extremists, NOT THE MODERATES.

This kind of journalism would be as absurd as saying:

Amost 90% of Cancer Victim's Body Is Healthy

When the point is: the 10% which is carcinoma-riddled can kill you.

Instead of emphasizing that there is a danger from a serious slice of Islam, they prefer to report that:

"Titanic's Hull Is 90% Intact".

Morons, abetting the sleepwalking suicide of our Civilization.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 23, 2007 10:58 AM

The survey by the Pew Research Center found that 78 percent of U.S. Muslims said the use of suicide bombings against civilian targets to defend Islam is never justified.

But 5 percent said it is justified "rarely," 7 percent said "sometimes," and 1 percent said "often"; the remaining 9 percent said they did not know or declined to answer

The remaining 9 percent said they did not know or declined to answer?

Let's see, 5% + 7% + 1% is 13%; what is this 9% anyway?

Do they mean 0.9% or .0000009%? So let's assume that you only have say, 100,000 muslims (I'm sure that it is much higher than this) in the entire US and that only a paultry 13%; hell, let's round down to 10% to make the numbers easy -- that means that you have at least 1000 people in the country that are potential suicide murders.

Now, if you factor in the undecided -- that is the folks that could be swayed to actually support suicide murders and be ones themselves because that are not completely convinced that it is murder, then you have an awful lot of people who seem to believe they have a relgious mandate to murder other people.

If you have a "religious mandate" to kill or face eternal damnation if you don't -- what do you suppose such a person is apt to do when push comes to shove?

Sitting home and watching sports re-runs to immediately pop into my mind -- perhaps I am alone in my thinking on this one, but I doubt it!

Just saw an interesting billboard that read "You are here" with a red arrow pointing to a street corner in some city, "where is your family?" it continued, "make an emergency plan. Sponsored by ready.gov"

I have never seen a sign like that one before, and now this poll, followed by this headline:

LAW OF THE LAND
Bush grants presidency extraordinary powers
Order for emergencies apparently gives authority without congressional oversight

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55825

Worried yet? No?

Well, I think you ought to be VERY, VERY worried about now for a number of reason!

If you are like most Americans, you are just a happy care-free little lamb, bounding down the prim rosed path on a nice spring morning, to an ugly little shack of horrors that awaits your arrival down the road.

You damn well had better wake up -- and soon!

Posted by: witness at May 23, 2007 10:58 AM

I agree. NO muslim should think suicide bombing is the thing to do.

However, in every society and religion you get osama bin laden or abortion clinic bomber/Christian Identity style wack jobs!

either way, if it is not religion that is encouraging these crazies it is some other philosophy or mental instability.

Posted by: Scarecrow at May 23, 2007 11:03 AM

Forgot the "quote"'s around "MODERATES", above.

(Their Heraldic Crest Being a Smiling Mohammedan Riding a Unicorn.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 23, 2007 11:03 AM

Ynkedoodl2, I read a book that enlightened me to the 4 wives/1 husband type of relationship and their closeness - or lack thereof. It is called, 'They Call Me Infidel' written by an Egyptian, ex-muslim woman'. Basically, the women are never trusting of another women - even a family member - because she could become the other wife. And that only means less for her and her children and other nasty things that she would prefer to do without.

What usually happens is there is a sort of (I call sick) tie between the mother and son (it is not sexual) that happens because she depends on him more than anything. This stifles the son in many ways too. Read the book, it is interesting.

And all of this type of relationship between mother and son, along with the way they educate their children to become constructive citizens (or lack thereof), along with the daily teaching of hatred of the West and others, leads to the boys easily becoming radicalized.

Posted by: R_not at May 23, 2007 11:06 AM

Witness-

The report claims 1.4 mil Muslims in the U.S.

So that 13%, if accurately representative, is only 185,000 !!!

That's only 3,700 per U.S. state on average so settle down, there is nothing to see here.

The report claims that 75% of the participants gave their address and contact information. Time for a subpoena.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at May 23, 2007 11:12 AM

"However, in every society and religion you get osama bin laden or abortion clinic bomber/Christian Identity style wack jobs!"

Very poor choice of moral equivalence. Perhaps in every muslim society you may find supporters of OBL but you will rarely if ever find supporters of abortion clinic bombings among christian communities.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at May 23, 2007 11:18 AM

Quijybo,
I know how you feel, believe me I have felt just as you do regarding the world in my past. I used to be quite a compassionate guy, but over decades as living in the world will do (if we pay attention) I have become somewhat hardened, I have seen that the world is not a pretty place. Sure here in America over the last 50 years we have been reasonably safe and some might even say spoiled. Think of the world as a really bad neighborhood with lots of bad characters in it. People don’t get along, that’s why you see mainly Chinese in China or Indonesians in Indonesia. Only in America do we think that we can take everyone and put them together and we will all live happily ever after. A microcosm of the world? Again, take a look at the world, there is little getting along, so do we here in America have an exclusivity that is and has never been seen in the history of man? That’s what we are told, but as I look around I don’t see it. Thirty or so years ago there was not all this hate in America, what has changed? Well, in my opinion the mindset of many in America has changed, we have seen the atmosphere of bitterness over past grievances take precedent over what is happening now. The media and PCMC’s have created hostile subgroups whose mission is grievance theatre and the division of our society. Divide and conquer, the opposite of united we stand is the primary instrument our enemies are using against us. Now who is the biggest offender of all of the above in America today? Would I like everyone to get along? Sure. Do I think it will ever happen? No. So we need to work on building alliances with like minded freedom loving people across America, that is where our effort should be directed not at attempting to reform someone elses historical beliefs. United we can stand, divided we will fall.

Posted by: tgusa at May 23, 2007 11:21 AM

In Islam a woman calls herself "Um" (Mother) and then after that the name of her first born. If the first born son's name is Nidal, then mom's name is "Um Nidal" -- mother of Nidal.

Her personality is subsumed to that of her male son. Her having a male son is the only thing that gives her clout.

Maybe the first wife with the firstborn male son has an ace up her burqa, but its downhill after that for all the other wives, sons, daughters, etc.

Excess population will never be a problem for the muhammadans which is why the blood always flows where the muhammadan goes.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at May 23, 2007 11:23 AM

I dont take stock in any polls. The reality is that birds of a feather stick together. One muslim might assimilate, twenty muslims may assimilate, but twenty thousand will not. They will form a ghetto and a cesspool of stagnation. Muslim pollution
is as serious as any other pollution.

Posted by: duh_swami at May 23, 2007 11:25 AM

Just a spoonful of this (every now and then):

DEARBORN — The Muslim Public Affairs Council has issued an urgent advisory to all mosques and Muslim community centers across the nation to secure their facilities against possible threats of attack and vandalism. The advisory comes in direct response to revealed FBI investigations this week that show evidence for possible violence against two Florida mosques and a local Islamic leader.

Helps the Jihad go down!
================================
O, and by the way, in case you didn't notice...

IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, INFIDEL AMERICAN!

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at May 23, 2007 11:30 AM

I haven't seen the pdf yet, but the question that uses the phrase "suicide bombing" is a softball question. Lots of Muslims will oppose that because they believe suicidal attacks are illegal...meanwhile support for Hizballah among Iranians is something like 75%...support for bin Laden among "Arabs" is about 49.9%. Most terrorist attacks are not suicide operations.

Needs more precise questions.

E.g., "Do you support the killing of non-Muslim American civilians who are working in Iraq?" "Do you support the killing of American soldiers in Iraq?"

Also, it is necessary to distinguish between Sunni and Shia respondents. That is important, for example, in measuring support for al-Qaeda vs Hizballah.

Also, there is practically no basis for the claim that U.S. Muslims oppose "extremism."

Ask them if they want sharia law set up in Muslim communities in the U.S.

Ask them if they think Muslim-majority countries should be ruled by sharia (note: most do think so, according to a Michigan sample a while back).

Ask them if people should be legally punished for criticizing or mocking Islam.

Ask them if they think apostates should be legally punished.

Ask them if the approve of polygamy.

Ask them if they think homosexuality should be illegal (not 'gay marriage', but homosexuality as such--61% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal)

Ask them if they think a Muslim woman should be legally allowed to have sex with a non-Muslim man.

Ask them if they think that the Koran is perfect.

Ask them if they accept Muhammad's policies as described in the sahih Hadith.

Ask them if they support the democratically-elected Hamas government.

(Based on other polls, it is probable that at least one third of all Muslims would be willing to answer 'yes' to those questions anonymously. Indeed, for the 'criticizing Islam' question about two thirds of Muslims will probably answer yes, that people should be punished for that (and an unknown percentage of those will select the death penalty for that, not unlike the 31% of British Muslims who think apostates should be put to death). In short, ask a variety of questions that pertain to "extremist" views before drawing conclusions about what percentage of Muslims present a threat to modern western civilization.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at May 23, 2007 11:31 AM

Here's an intersting site I stumbled accross.

http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm

Looks like a good reference for the curious.

Posted by: Abrog8 at May 23, 2007 11:36 AM

R not - I too have the book "Now They Call Me Infidel," by Nonie Darwish. She's now Christian and lives in the U.S. She's featured on apostatesofislam.com, a fabulous site.

A famous quote of hers is "Arab means never having to say you're sorry."

Ain't it the truth?

Posted by: darcy at May 23, 2007 11:58 AM

Forgive my ignorance but I've always wondered about something. When a poll is being taken there is NO indication of the percentage of those WHO REFUSED TO TAKE THE POLL.

I suspect among American-Muslims the numbers thus refusing would be abnormally high.

What if you polled 1,000 Muslims and 800 of them refused to even take the poll. Would we have any wway of knowing this - or even if the non poll takers were just double the usual number.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at May 23, 2007 12:08 PM

The poll does indeed show good news in Muslims in America are not prone to attack their host nation, but the left is completely incorrect in Muslims here being assimilated.

American Muslims are seperated out of American culture and that is why they have been converted just like Jehovah's Witness prey upon people by showing up at their doors when their loved one's die. They scan newspaper obits and swoop in as standard operation in emotional distress.
The same type is in Islam in prison isolation facing rape or their murder that Islam protects and empowers them as much as immigrants flowing always have club Islam to socialize in and exclude Americans.

Having witnessed pretty little college girls beaming with delight at being "Muslim" in the sense being Muslim made them exclusive and better than Americans, this is the danger as much as any caste system with violent undertones.

The left likes to call hyphenated Americans assimilation, but if you have people identifying themselves as Muslim - Americans, they are not assimilated but a sect. Keith Ellison if he were American would have abided by traditions instead of screwing with the system and then filing complaints against other Representatives.

Posted by: Lame Cherry at May 23, 2007 12:08 PM

Scarecrow wrote:
"either way, if it is not religion that is encouraging these crazies it is some other philosophy or mental instability."

Are you suggesting that the results of the poll of Muslims, with their condoning of suicide-bombings as justifiable in defense of Islam under certain circumstances, has no direct correlation to Islam itself?

Posted by: awake at May 23, 2007 12:14 PM

Guys

Go to the original poll PDF link, and start reading from pg 81. Hugh alluded to this yesterday, but read their following questions carefully:

QB2: The government should do more to protect morality in society - 59%

QD5: Muslims coming to the U.S. today should mostly adopt American customs and ways of life - 43%

QD7: Okay for a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim - 62%

QE5: Quran is to be taken literally, word for word - 50%

QE8: Mosques should express their views on day-to-day social and political questions - 43%

While some of the above responses may look innocuous, consider the implications. For instance, on government regulating morality in society, what does one think they mean - general morality or Islamic morality? When 43% say that Muslims should adapt American customs and ways of life, it implies that 57% don't - even though in the poll itself, only 26% explicitly stated that Muslims coming to the U.S. today should mostly try to remain distinct from the larger American society. Also, when 62% state that they are okay with a Muslim marrying a non-Muslim, would they also be okay if the Muslim in question were to convert out of Islam to his/her spouse's religion? Then take the percentage who says no, and add that to the remaining 38%, and see for yourself how tolerant our resident ummah is - on something that's really a very private and personal matter.

I'm sure that all posters here can dissect that poll and critique it in countless ways. This should take up some days of analysis.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 23, 2007 12:36 PM

Khaybar

I've posted it on Islam-Watch as well yesterday. Instead of all 108 pages, read the last 25, which is the raw, raw data, and particularly look at the questions I've highlighted in the last post. Toss them around in your mind - like when a question says that 76% are either very or somewhat concerned about the rise of Islamic extremism around the world, is it because of the general threats to freedom and civil societies, or is it because it gets Infidels to focus on Islam, and at least consider that at some point, Islam would need to be undermined? The conclusions that PEW jumped at is laughable, when one analyzes each question carefully. You can do that by skipping pg 1-80 (pg 62-80 may be interesting for statistics students interested in the polling methodology), but you need to work on the raw data to analyze it properly.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 23, 2007 12:46 PM

P.S. Khaybar, some of your questions, such as on whether the Quran is perfect, have been answered in the poll.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 23, 2007 12:48 PM

Sorry for so many successive posts. However, on the last page:

As a token of our appreciation, we would like to send you a check for $50. Would it be okay to do this?

How come I never get polled?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 23, 2007 1:07 PM

What if you polled 1,000 Muslims and 800 of them refused to even take the poll. Would we have any wway of knowing this - or even if the non poll takers were just double the usual number

If you have a sample size of 1000, that means that 1000 actually took the poll.

If 800 out of the 1000 did not take the poll, then your sample size would be 200.

What these polls actually mean is that if you took a completely random sample of size 1000, from the entire population under study -- US muslims in this case -- from which you could get several random possible samples; you would say that you have a confidence level of 95% for instance that the true parameter for the population is in a range of values of your sample statistic plus or minus some margin of error.

It could be that this particular sample of 1000 muslims is the bastard sample that will show up in one of the tails of a normal distribution and not be anywhere close to the true population parameter.

That's why these polls have a Confidence Interval like 95% because there is a 5% chance that you get the non-representative bastard group.

Posted by: witness at May 23, 2007 2:15 PM

I agree Quijybo,

Islam will ultimately lose out because they have nothing to offer to even the staunchest socialist worker. All they can offer is tents for women who are classed second and no music, then the only conclusion is the multitude of westerners will ultimately tell them to do one.

The problem is that many of the liberalists will keep on appeasing until the rot starts to affect their own lives and then they will bleat about the government not stopping the Islamic boots on their doorstep by appeasing them properly in the first place.

So if you’re waiting for the worm to turn I suggest you keep your pecker hard and your powder dry, because it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Posted by: Mert at May 23, 2007 2:54 PM

Comments at WaPo

A summary introduction of my posts, with some additional arguments, and a reposting of them afterwards is at

Pew Research Poll Flaws: Muslim Americans: Middle Class

Posted by: Old Atlantic at May 23, 2007 4:16 PM

..so you're a basic terror supporting paranoid muslim and a guy calls you on the phone and asks
if you think it's O.K. to blow s**t up...

..yeh, you fess right up to that..

Posted by: Madduck at May 23, 2007 4:20 PM

Madduck-

I would have to say their first thought when asked about suicide bombing is in regards to Israelis. They boast about it and teach it to their children and no one will do a thing about it. It's a free world, right?

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at May 23, 2007 4:27 PM

XRDC, check out the palestinian kids in the last minute of this video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwaOlS1Cl-8

Posted by: Madduck at May 23, 2007 5:14 PM

IP,

Thanks for that. I will have a look at it after all.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at May 24, 2007 7:43 AM

"Only 5 percent have a favorable view of Bin Laden", according to the poll. Yes, but the poll also reports taht only 63 percent have a very unfavorable view. How can anyone have anything less then absolute repulsion for this terrorist filth. How can this be good news, that one third find something about Bin Laden to temper their dislike?

Posted by: usapatriot at May 24, 2007 8:32 AM

"Sorry for so many successive posts. However, on the last page:

As a token of our appreciation, we would like to send you a check for $50. Would it be okay to do this?

So all the respondents to this poll, including Jihadis and Islamic supremacists, received $50. Brilliant!

How come I never get polled?"

This also states that they have their addresses (else how could they send the check), hand it over to the FBI or NSA and let them take the bastards down.

Morguerat,
mohammed cursing Christian

Posted by: morguerat at May 24, 2007 10:50 AM

IP,

I've gone through all the data. (I took your advice and started at p. 81 dealing with the actual data, thereby avoiding all of the apologist soft-sell in the main written part). Although this poll does give us some general impressions, my questions were not answered directly; there were only indirect indications. They also buried an important piece of information: The numbers of children under 18 years of age per household (for Muslims; see Q Z6b: the question about number of children is asked, but the results are not provided!). They only reported the percentage (51%) that had at least one child. However, that figure doesn't tell us what we need to know about the numbers of children. Of course, Islamic demographic jihad is not a major problem in the U.S. (yet), but still would be useful to see that demographic info to see if the much higher birth rate holds as a pattern with most of the ummah world-wide.

My Q: "Ask them if they think homosexuality should be illegal (not 'gay marriage', but homosexuality as such--61% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal)"

They asked Q B. 2. d
Homosexuality is a way of life that should be accepted by society M [Muslim] = 27%,
GP [general population] = 51%
Homosexuality is a way of life that should be discouraged by society M = 61, GP = 38
Neither/Both Equally M = 5, GP = 8
Don’t Know/Refused M = 7, GP = 3

[note they used the softball "society" instead of law/legality] Nevertheless, the 61% disapproval is actually the same as the percentage of British Muslims who think homosexuality should be illegal.

My Q. "Ask them if they think a Muslim woman should be legally allowed to have sex with a non-Muslim man."

But they failed to specify the case of the non-Muslim male marrying a Muslim female and remaining non-Muslim. They also failed to distinguish between people of the Book vs polytheists and non-religious.

My Q. "Ask them if they think that the Koran is perfect."

"Word of God" is indeed close in effect to "perfect" though there is a problem in that it was believed to be dictated to Muhammad through Gabriel so some people won't agree with the simple "word of God" statement just on that technicality. There is also problem with their literal/non-literal option (see below; these researchers have perhaps not looked at the Koran's contents!)

M 86 GP 69* The Koran is the word of God
50 35 The Koran is to be taken literally-
25 28 That not everything... literally-
11 6 Other/Don’t Know/ Refused
M 8 GP 22* The Koran is a book written by men and is not the word of God.
M 1 GP 2 Other
M 5 GP 7 Don’t Know/refused

*This is comparative data obtained from the general public about the Bible
[my note about literal word-for-word: The Koran itself says it contains some allegorical verses (3:7) and parables; this is yet another problem with this option. Moreover, non-literal interpretations are not necessarily better]

"Ask them if they accept Muhammad's policies as described in the sahih Hadith."

They did ask about belief in Muhammad (94% said yes; 96% said yes for Allah). However, they did not specify Sunnah or hadith, so belief in Muhammad could be interpeted by some to mean Muhammad as messenger of Koran (only).

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at May 24, 2007 11:15 AM

Khaybar

Thanks. I largely agree with you, except that you are assuming that Pew operate with the same level of detail that we do while pursuing these questions. I think they did fine in asking Muslims how important Mohammed is: expecting them to ask Muslims whether Bukhari or Muslim is more influential is asking a bit much. Similarly, the question about a Muslim woman having the right to marry a non-Muslim man partly misses the point: Islam's dictate is that the couple should end up as a Muslim couple.

I'll continue this conversation in Islam Watch once that site resumes normal operation.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 26, 2007 2:02 AM